 I'm Carol Henkel-Betsy, because I'm Betsy, otherwise, this is my phone. Now this one, hi. I'm Carol Henkel-Betsy, he's not here today. Love to welcome you, this beautiful fall day. Just wanted to remind you to turn off your cell phones. I think everything else is OK for today. So I'd love to introduce Michael Orlansky of our program committee, so he can introduce our speaker. Michael? Today, we're truly delighted to welcome Larry Hamberlin back to education and enrichment for everyone. Larry is a professor of music at Middlebury College, where he teaches many courses on classical and popular music. Professor Hamberlin earned his PhD in historical musicology at Brandeis University. He's published widely on many musical forms, ranging from Gregorian chant to ragtime. Larry Hamberlin is co-author, along with the distinguished musicologist Richard Crawford, of a widely used textbook, An Introduction to American Music. That book shows how the lively interactions between the folk, popular, and classical spheres have made American music resonate with audiences throughout the world. Like many of us, I'm especially looking forward to today's presentation, which is titled Baroque Dance Rhythms. Music that moves the heart and the feet. Please join me in giving a warm, triple E welcome to Professor Larry Hamberlin. Thank you. Thanks very much. Can you hear me OK? Do I have this microphone adjusted enough? I don't seem to be on at all. Well, I think in a moment, here, we'll have some. Now you can hear me. OK, good. I'll just yell if I need to. But I hope that won't be necessary. It's a real pleasure to be with you here today on this beautiful Indian summer day. Isn't it great to get a nice little taste of summer one last time around before? I think it's going to be gone for good here pretty soon. But I enjoy this beautiful foliage. Just the drive up from Bristol was absolutely gorgeous. I love these days. So let's talk about some dance music. Sorry that Beth Wood can't be here. But I hope she'll be dancing really soon, again, as her leg heals. And I want to talk about music that moves the feet and it moves the heart as well. Now we're going to be focusing on music of the Baroque period and specifically on my favorite composer of the Baroque period, Johann Sebastian Bach, who wrote lots of wonderful dance music. But let's start by thinking about the big picture of music and dance. I've been told that in Sanskrit, there's no separate word for music and dance. There's one word that means music and dance. In other words, those are two things that are never separated from each other. All dancing is done to music, but also all music is suitable for dancing in the ancient Indian mindset. To some extent, I think that's really true, that there is a quality of bodily motion in all kinds of music, not just the music that's actually designed to get you up and dancing. It's funny, you ever hear of synesthesia? There are people I've been told who translate one sense into another sense. They see colors when they hear music. They can taste a rainbow. One sense triggers sensations in a different sense. I've got a niece who does it. You play different notes on the piano. She'll say, well, that note's yellow. Oh, that note's blue. I don't see colors when I hear music. Some people do, not me. What I do is I feel motion in music, in all kinds of music. All kinds of music, to me, is movement. I feel that movement when I listen to music. There's music that soars through the air. There's music that stamps on the ground. There's music that takes us places, music that sways to and fro like a tree. Whenever I hear music, I can close my eyes and feel motion. I think that's that connection to dance. There's something about moving your body to music. Humans have done it for time immemorial, all over the world. It's an important part of it. Now, of course, there is music that is specifically designed for dancing. And that's usually what we mean when we talk about dance music. And that happens all over the place. And a lot of that music is very, very good. When you think about it, though, what makes music really suitable for dancing? Now, think about ballroom dances. Any ballroom dancers in here? People who learn. There are Fox trots and waltzes and tangos, et cetera, that kind of thing. Think about it. What you want in a good piece of music for ballroom dancing is a very clear beat so that you can tell whether it is a Fox trot or a waltz or a tango or a cha-cha. You want it to be clear. And you want it to be pretty simple so it doesn't confuse you. That can make for music that's really good for dancing, but sometimes not the best music for just sitting and listening to. A lot of contemporary dance music that young people like is music that I don't care to sit and listen to myself, frankly. It might be fun to get out there on the dance floor and do whatever they're doing to that music, but to simply sit and listen to a lot of electronic dance music, I find it not terribly interesting. Now, the best dance music manages to be good to listen to as well as to dance to. But there's a kind of dance music that's really what I'm gonna be focusing on today that's sort of one step removed from music for dancers. Music that is just a little too complicated for dancers, but only a little. It's very closely tied to those different rhythms of dancing. Outside the Baroque period, an example would be the waltzes of Chopin. Beautiful waltzes. You can feel the waltz rhythms. You can see people dancing in your imagination as you hear those waltzes, but people don't actually dance to Chopin's waltzes. They're not that good for dancing. They're a little too complicated. They confuse dancers. Another example before we get to the Baroque, modern jazz. Now think about jazz back before World War II, during World War II, it was music really for dancing, for dancers. The big bands of the swing era, 1930s, 1940s, that was music for people to get out on the dance floor and dance to. The musicians who played in those big bands would then get together in small groups after hours and have jam sessions. Using those same dance rhythms, the same kinds of music they're playing on the dance floor, they started developing a somewhat more complicated kind of music than what they were playing for dancers. After World War II, that develops into modern jazz, bebop, cool jazz, hard bop, all the different kinds of music that come out of people like Charlie Parker, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, John Coltrane, great jazz musicians creating beautiful jazz that's not really for dancing anymore. It's for sitting and listening to. But it doesn't lose that connection to the dance. So that's music that's like Chopin, in a way. And now I wanna turn back to the Baroque period, specifically to the first part of the 18th century. Baroque period, this large period to the 17th and the first half of the 18th century. And specifically music by Bach, who wrote lots of music in the different dance rhythms of his day. Just like you have different dance rhythms for ballroom dances, they had different dances too that were popular, each with its own distinctive rhythm. And if you ever took a class in ballroom dancing and you got out on the dance floor and you tried to do a foxtrot while the waltz was playing, you found out that it didn't work very well. If you tried a jitterbug to a cha-cha, not too smooth. So one thing about dancing is that you recognize the characteristic rhythm in the music and you say, okay, now I know the steps that are gonna fit to that music. The same thing was true in the 18th century. They were just different dances than the ones we have today. But dancing was very important, ballroom dancing was very important, extremely important, maybe even more important than it was during the big band era. Why was dancing so important to people in the beginning of the 18th century? Because it was very important to King Louis the 14th of France. He loved to dance. And he was the most powerful person in Europe in his day. Monarch of the largest, most powerful nation, France. This is at a time when Germany isn't even a country yet. It's lots of little countries. Italy isn't a country, it's lots of little countries. England was a unified country but they had a terrible civil war back in the 17th century, a religious war. That didn't happen in France. France was a big, powerful, unified country with this one very powerful ruler who set the tone for much of what happened not only in France but throughout Europe. And Louis loved to dance. Which meant that everybody at his court at Versailles had to dance. You had to learn those different steps and be able to tell the difference between the equivalent of a foxtrot in the walls. If you wanted to be successful as a courtier, as a person at the court. Now why the rest of Europe? Because so many people aspired to the qualities of the aristocracy. Even members of the middle class wanted to show the good education, the good breeding, the good manners of the aristocracy. Now that's something that's a little bit different from our time too. We have social classes in this country but it's mostly based on money. The richer you are, the higher class you are. And we have also in this country lots of middle class and working class people who want to aspire to behave like members of the upper class. Here that mostly means spending your money very conspicuously. Or worse, spending money that's not really your money very conspicuously. People tend to go into debt to have these certain occasions where they behave as if they were Mr. Moneybags. Weddings are an example of that. I say as my daughter just tells me that she's engaged, I think oh my gosh. We're gonna try to avoid that too much in her wedding. But in this country it seems like a sort of lavish display of wealth is enough to sort of send the signal I'm as good as the aristocracy if not the same. In the 18th century though that was done not so much through displays of wealth as much as it was displays of good education and good breeding. What were the characteristics of a member of Louis XIV's court? They were gallant, gallant. And gallantory, that gallantry was an important part of being a refined person. You were gallant, you were polite. You also displayed that knowledge of the way things were done at court, the court in Louis's court that courtoisie or courtesy as it's become in English. Politeness, thoughtfulness, graciousness. So what was the physical embodiment of that graciousness, of that courtesy? The dance. Knowing how to ask someone to dance, how to escort her to the dance floor, how to execute the dance with gracefulness and then move on to the next part of the social event. So dancing, very, very important. Because there's so much music for dancing, we also have a lot of this, like I want to point out I'm calling dance music one step removed. Music that's for listening, but it's full of those rhythms of the dance. And that's what we tend to enjoy now hundreds of years later, is this music that satisfies us as listeners, yet it's filled with these rhythms of moving bodies. How do we hear that music nowadays? Instrumental music? Music that's gathered together into collections of dance types. And the term that's most used for that is the suite. Dance suites from the Baroque. That word is just the same as it's used in real estate, an office suite is a set of rooms that go together. Or in furniture, a bedroom suite, pieces of furniture that go together. A dance suite will be a series of dances, contrasting types of dances, contrasting rhythms, but it all fits together, it all hangs together in some way. That hang together part I'll come back to in a moment. But first just that term suite, that's the term that's most commonly used, there are a few others that you'll come across as well. One is partita. That's an Italian word, parts, all brought together, each part being one of the dances, a partita. And then a term that you'll sometimes run into is an overture. Now that's an odd one because you think overture is what comes before an opera, right? This will be a dance suite that begins with an instrumental piece before you get to the dance music in the style of an opera overture. So it's sort of a big introductory piece and then here come the dances. And that whole thing will be called an overture. So when we look specifically at the dance music by J.S. Bach, we'll find all three terms in use. He liked them all. So for orchestra, he wrote three overtures for orchestra. Those are dance suites. For solo violin, he wrote some partitas. Those are dance suites. For the cello, he wrote six suites. He used that word suite. For the keyboard, and his time before the piano was so commonly used, the harpsichord would have been the instrument in his day, but I'll be using a modern piano because the music sounds great on piano, I think. He sometimes used the word partita and sometimes used the word suite. So if Bach didn't care, we shouldn't care either. It's just those terms all mean the same thing. Now the specific dances within it. Here's the interesting thing. If we're gonna just listen to this music, why do we wanna listen to all these different dance types one after another? A couple of reasons. First of all, just changing up the rhythm keeps the music interesting and changing. Now when we have pieces of instrumental music where we have not one long continuous piece of music with several short, independent bits or pieces, we call each of those bits a movement, right? Like a symphony has four movements. Piano Concerto usually has three movements. A movement's that term we use for a standalone complete song. That term comes from dance music. Why do you have several movements in a dance suite because each one moves in a different way and each one sort of impels your body to move in a different way? Several movements in each suite. Changing up the dance rhythms give us different rhythms to listen to. But also a really interesting part of this for me is that there was an idea that each of these dance types, each of these dance rhythms had its own personality. Almost like a character in a play. Or another way to think of it is that each one is a different psychological state. Maybe there's one character who's going through a series of different emotional states and each movement, each dance type is a different emotion. Now Bach was living just as the enlightenment was beginning. He really wasn't part of that movement that's gonna be so important in the late 18th century that's gonna lead to things like the American Revolution, the Enlightenment. Bach is not really part of that. Bach is part of this large social movement that happened before that. The Scientific Revolution. The 17th century, the early 18th century, Bach's time in about a century before that was full of great scientists and mathematicians and philosophers with the scientific bent. People like Galileo with his telescope. Van Levenhoek with his microscope. Sir Isaac Newton with laws of motion, laws of thermodynamics. William Harvey figuring out the circulatory system of the human body. Leibniz inventing calculus. Descartes, Rene Descartes, a philosopher applying this sort of scientific method to human experience. I think therefore I am. Can we study the human mind in a scientific way? Descartes is long before psychology, but in a way he's laying the groundwork for what later will be psychology and much later will be neuroscience. Actually you can read things in Descartes now and go these are the sort of questions neuroscientists are asking today. And part of it is the idea of can we sort of explore the mind, make a map of the mind according to its emotional states, passions in the language of the time. Or another term used at the time, aphects, A-F-F-E-C-T, an aphect. An aphect being something that we would call a psychological state. So what's really interesting in listening to Baroque dances is that each one not only represents actual steps that dancers did, but each one also tries to capture some aspect of human experience. So for us as listeners we can tap our toes to that rhythm, but there's also something that moves the heart and the mind. Now let's go through some of the dances that you'll commonly hear in a dance suite by Bach or by Handel or Telemann or other Baroque composers. First of all, what do all these dances have in common? They are based on folk dances. All the dances done at Louis Court were derived from folk dances, sort of brought up into the aristocratic court, refined and changed, but at its base, each of these dances is a folk dance to begin with. And what's characteristic of the music for folk dances, European folk dance? Let's go specifically to English or Celtic folk dance. One thing is that those tunes, fiddle tunes, all have two parts. There's the part that comes first and the part that comes second. What's an example of that? Before we get to the Baroque, how about an Irish jig? That's the first part. What do you do when you get to the end of it? You do it again. Now it's time for the second part. And what do you do when you get to the end of that? You do that second part again. And that's the Irish washerwoman. Two parts, A, and you repeat that, B, and then you repeat that. All of these Baroque dances by Bach and his contemporaries work just the same way. They call it a binary form, a two-part form, A and B. Each one played twice. With Bach it comes out a little bit differently and we'll get into the differences. Why does it work out differently with Bach? Because it's not just music for dancing, it's music for listening to. So it's going to give you a little bit more to chew on in there. A little more complicated, a little more something going on. But let's hear that same structure in the most popular dance hit of the 18th century. What was the dance craze that everybody went crazy about in the 18th century? The minuet, a very dainty dignified dance. Three beats to the bar. Well, one, two, three, one, two, three. More dignified than the waltz, which would be a hundred years later. So it's not an um-pa-pa waltz. It's like it's all ums, it's three ums in a row, no pa. Um, um, um, um, um, um, um, dignified, dainty. And here's a little minuet by Bach that'll have exactly the same two parts, the first part that repeats, then the second part that repeats. Well, I gotta switch my glasses to my reading glasses. Bifocals aren't enough. You have to have yet a third set of lenses so you can read the piano music. Here's a little minuet by Bach. That's the first half. Now, here's the thing. He finished up here, but that wasn't the key he started in. It started in one key and then went off someplace else. So we gotta go back around to that first key so he can repeat it. Now we're at the end of the first half of it, two times through. Now we've gotta go from this key back home again. So this is gonna be the job of the second half is to get us from this key here back to where we started. How's he gonna do that? We're not back home. The second half lost its way somewhere. It got even farther away from home. It's gonna take us a little more work to get back there again. So let's just keep going. That's a little minuet by J. S. Bach. So there's that same two-part structure that you hear the Irish washerwoman. Just complicate it a little bit by the fact that he doesn't stay in one key. It modulates. It moves from one key to another so that that first section started in the home key but it ended in the wrong key. The second half has to get us from the wrong key back home but it does it in a roundabout way. It goes even farther away from home before it finds its way back so that there's a little journey that the music takes. We start at home. We go away. We try to get back home but we end up farther than we were and then finally we find our way back home again. There's a little journey inside the music. And all of that is in the style of a certain dance. Bach himself didn't write much about these different dances but another fellow in Germany right around the same time, a fellow named Matheson, Johann Matheson, did write this description. He was very influenced by Descartes and all this sort of mapping of the mind. So Matheson wanted to map out types of music to match the sort of things Descartes was saying about the mind. So he made a list of all these dances and described the character of each one a little bit. It's psychological character. The minuet, he says, that's a characteristic of reasonable gaiety. Happy but not too happy. Don't get carried away. Keep it under control. Here's another dance type called the gavotte. It has a very different dance rhythm, so a very different step, where we had three beats in the minuet. One, two, three, one. Here we'll have two beats in the gavotte. One, two, one, two. Except that we have a pattern that doesn't begin on one. It begins on two and leads into one. Two and one, two and one. Da, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba, ba. Na, um, ba, ba, ba, ba. That's the rhythm of the gavotte. Da, da, da. And what did Matheson say about the gavotte? He says that it's joyful. He says it has more of a leaping nature than a walking nature. And that it's, now I've seen dancers who can do the gavotte. It looks a lot more like walking to me. It's not really a leaping dance, but it's kind of a strutting dance. It has this sort of strutting quality. If it's in the minor key, it has this kind of mischievous quality. If it's in the major key, it has this kind of a flirtatious quality. So we'll get a little bit of both in this pair of gavottes by Bach from one of his other dance suites. Cause this does something that we also find in the dances as well. They use that two-part structure, but he'll have a gavotte with its two-part structure. Then he'll have a contrasting gavotte with its own two-part structure. And then we go back and play the first one again. Here, the first one is in a minor key and has that kind of devilish quality. When he goes into the major key, it gets gentler, but Bach's gonna do an extra thing that again ties this back to the French aristocratic court. I said all this stuff comes up from folk practices. An instrument that was really widely enjoyed at the court of Louis XIV, you won't believe this, was the bagpipes. That's because they took these loud folk bagpipes, made a softer version, a more refined version that ladies could play. Ladies would play this gentle little dainty, courtly bagpipe called the musette. And Bach imitates the musette in that second gavotte, the one in the middle. So we'll hear the minor key one with its kind of mischievous quality. Then we'll go into the major and we'll hear the sound of that droning musette. A soft bagpipe, if you can imagine such a thing. And then we go back into the first one again. You hear the contrast of those two different moods. So there's something that unifies the gavotte, but we have the shade of meanings and moods within each dance type. So those two types of dances, the minuet and the gavotte, those were part of two of many kinds of dances that altogether were called the galantilly, the most fashionable dances of the time. A dance suite would include one or two or more of these as the composer wished, but they would be surrounded by movements that were the more standard movements, things that had been around longer and were considered sort of the necessary dance movements. So not every dance suite will have a minuet, not every dance suite will have a gavotte, but these next dances that I wanna look at and listen to will be the ones that we'll find in almost every dance suite, the sort of the standard movements, the standard dance types. The opening, one of the interesting things about these is that they come from different countries and that will hear sort of folk traditions from all over Europe and even a little bit outside of Europe sort of all brought to France, all brought to the French court, refined and made aristocratic and then spreading out through Europe so that a German composer like Bach is simply trying to imitate these French styles. I should mention that these pieces that I'm playing are from two collections of Bachs. One is called the French Suites, a good name, because it's Bach imitating the French style as much as he can. The other one has kind of a confusing name. They're called the English Suites, but they're also dances in the French styles. Bach was, we don't know exactly why he called them the English Suites, but we believe that it's because he was inspired by a particular collection of dance music that was published in London and that a copy of it got into Bach's hands because there are some specific connections we can make with it, with this music that was published in England, music by a French composer who happened to be publishing in England. So that title, English Suites, does not mean that the music is English in style. Oh no, it's entirely French in style, even though it's by a German composer. So French style music by a German composer called the English Suites, bush. But in a way that's appropriate because this music has this international flavor. The opening movement of a French suite is called an Allemande, which is the French word for German. So when Bach is writing a piece in this style, he's using the French word to describe his own nationality. So what's the characteristic rhythm of the Allemande? It's very smooth and flowing. Four sort of medium tempo beats, one, two, three, four. With each one of those beats broken up into these flowing notes. One, two, three, four. With the phrases almost always beginning with one little note, we call that a pickup note or an upbeat when you have a little note that comes before the strong beat. Ba dee da dee da da dee da dee da dee da da. Ba dee da dee da dee da da da dee da da da da da. One note or sometimes three notes. Ba da da dee da da da da dee da dee da da. Ba da da one da da da two da da da three da four. Ba da da da. That's a characteristic rhythm of the Allemande. And it has a flowing character. Matheson says of the Allemande, he says, it conveys the expression of contentedness or of a cheerful temperament delighting in good order and serenity. So a very contented style of music. Let's listen to an Allemande from one of the French suites. Here's a good one. Beautiful, beautiful thing. That would be the opening movement of a suite as long as it doesn't have that overture at the beginning of it. Typically this is the way we would begin. The second dance then is called the Courant in French which means flowing or running like running water. Current, like a water current, the Courant. We say we can have current events too, right? Hartford I believe still has a newspaper called the Hartford Courant, is that right? It's the current news, what's current? It's running. So this is running, flowing music. Now there are two kinds of Courants. There's a kind that was cultivated in France and then there's a kind that's cultivated in Italy. Bach wrote both kinds. If you're being really careful, the French style he used the French name Courant. For the Italian style he used the Italian version, currente. Bach is not always careful in his use of those terms. Sometimes he gets them right, sometimes the names are a little bit sloppy. Here's an instance where we have a Courant in the French style. I'm gonna go back over to the English suites to play the most French sounding music Bach ever wrote. So what's the rhythmic characteristic of the Courant? Like all the French dances, it doesn't get too fast. They like things kind of slow and dignified. Six beats in the bar. One, two, three, four, five, six, one, two, with a little upbeat. A, one, two, three, four, five, six, a, one, two, three, four, five, six, a, one, two, three. And Matheson has a beautiful description of this. He says that the Courant is characterized by a mood of sweet expectation. It's music on which hopes are built. So some very hopeful music, a little Courant by Bach. But that's the French Courant. The Italian Courant has quite a different mood. That Italian spirit wants to move a little bit faster so they'll simplify it a little bit, not six beats in the bar, just three, and let those three beats move a little bit faster. Quite different in style, but still hopefully with that sense of sweet expectation or hope. A little brighter in one, a little darker in the other, but keeping that characteristic mood. So then it's time to bring it down to a dance with a very different character, the Sarabande. Here's a dance that comes to France by way of Italy, but the Italians got it from the Spanish. And the Spanish brought it from the New World. This is a Central American dance, the Sarabande. Probably present day Mexico. A Mexican dance by way of Spain, Southern Spain, where there's a little Arabic influence too, by the way. It comes to Italy as a dance that is danced with castanets and strumming guitars. A little bit like Flamenco. It was quite fast and apparently a bit indecent. He said it was a lascivious dance. But to be adopted at the court of Louis XIV, it had to be cleaned up quite a bit. And it was entirely transformed, much, much slower, slowed down, it loses its indecent characteristics and becomes, on the contrary, an extremely noble dignified dance. Matheson says that it has a character of veneration as if you're looking up towards someone that you really admire and respect. And to me, it feels like the dancer's job is to embody that dignity and nobility of character. Here's a beautiful Sarabande from one of the French suites. So the characteristic rhythm, three slow beats, with a little extra push on the second beat of the bar. One is always the strongest beat, but here beat two also is a little bit stronger. One, two, three. One, two, three, one. Now if you know Bach's Goldberg variations, may have thought that sounds a lot like the beginning of the Goldberg variations. That's because that opening melody that the Goldberg is based on is in that Sarabande rhythm. So if you listen to the Goldbergs, you can hear that sense of dignity and poise pervading that music. So in a dance suite, ordinarily we would have those three obligatory dances in that order. An Allamande, a Courant, the Sarabande. Then time for any of the Galanterie, the lighter dances. We listen to a mid-youette and a gavotte. There were other types as well, the Bouret, the Polynés, the Pasipiers, lots of different kinds. But you have to finish up with a jig, right where we began today. Not the Irish washerwoman, but various kinds of jigs, or as the French called them, jigs. So the jig becomes the closing dance. And here, I'm gonna say just in that same suite that we were just listening to the Sarabande from, here's a little bit of the jig that closes that. You can hear maybe just a little trace of the Irish washerwoman in the dance. Just a little taste of that jiggity, jiggity, jiggity, jiggity, jiggity, jigg. So that's a more, what on the continent they would have thought of as an English-style jig. My apologies to any Irish in the room. On the continent, anything from the British islands was considered English. So they would have called this an English jig. That's one type of jig. The French, though, did their own variation on the jig. They changed the rhythm a little bit. They slowed it down a bit because the French always slow everything down so it wouldn't be too outrageous. But what that slowing down does is it makes it possible to do bigger leaps. So for the French, a jig had large leaps. And when you do that, you need slower music than if you're taking steps. You can take very fast steps, but if you're hopping around, you can't hop as fast as you can step. So the beat actually slows down for the music to become more energetic in a way. And the reason that they're bringing in these leaps was that they mixed the English jig with a type of dance that they called the canary. And that is not a reference to the bird. It's named after the same thing that the bird is named after, the canary islands off the coast of West Africa. That had been colonized by the Spanish and the native dances of that African island nation had found its way up so that the French jig is a mixture of what we would think of as the Irish and the African. Can you imagine such a thing? Actually, that's just what happens in the United States a lot. And that's what leads to all kinds of blues and jazz and bluegrass and what have you. So here's another way that those two very different kinds of music were mixing together in the court of Louis XIV in France, a bit of Irish jig mixed with the West African dancing from the canary islands. So this is a French style jig. And then I think it will be time for a few questions. So we'll finish up with this little jig. So I'd be happy to take any questions that people might have. Oh, there's a couple of microphones circulating too. So anyone raise his hand. I wondered if you could say a few things more about the science revolution that you referred to and the effect or impact of the musicians. Sure, I'd be happy to. It's a shift in the way of thinking for lots of people in Europe in the 17th and early 18th centuries. And it's maybe not scientific as part of the word but it's systematic and methodical and thoroughgoing. The idea that we can catalog things. Linnaeus is another figure from this time period. Let's catalog all living things, right? Create big categories, plants and animals. And then within animals we'll have mammals and fish and birds, et cetera. And then within mammals we'll have different kinds, breaking it down. That approach to the world and experience is the characteristic thing of this time period. It's clear why scientists would be doing this. It's clear why mathematicians would be doing this. It's not immediately obvious why artists would wanna be doing this but in fact they are as well. So in music, part of this is the idea of, okay, what does music do? How does music affect people? How can we explore those ways that music can affect people? What are the different possible ways? Music can arouse emotional states in people. Well, what are all the different emotions? Can we create categories, lists, just like Linnaeus does with plants and animals? Can you have sort of categories of emotion? If we make categories, we might overlook some that we haven't thought about. We might discover new ones. And if we study how music can arouse those emotions in people, then we understand something about how the human mind works, how the human spirit works. So in a way, music becomes part of this scientific endeavor to explore not the outside world, but the inner world. Makes sense? Thank you, great question. I'm more familiar with the church music of Bach. Yes. And I'm wondering what sort of venues would Bach's dance music, so to speak, be played in? Good question. Bach had a large church job for the latter part of his life in the city of Leipzig. In fact, he was hired by the city of Leipzig to oversee music in the four main churches. So he didn't have one church job, he had four church jobs, four churches to organize all the music in. Of course, it could only be in one place at a time, so it was a complicated job. But part of that job as well was that he put on concerts at a coffee house, Zimmerman's Coffee House in the city of Leipzig. So as if he weren't busy enough on Sunday mornings, on Saturday nights, he was organizing concerts at a coffee house. And that's where a lot of this dance music would be played. But you know what? He sneaks a lot of these dance rhythms into his church music, too. And I'm sure there were some people who noticed that. That's, it's very dancey church music much of the time. In fact, these dance rhythms just pervade all of Baroque music. Dancing was so important that it's hard to find music that doesn't have dance in it in one way or another, including the church music. Is there another question? Yes, Glenn? You know, you said the Soravon got cleaned up. Yes. What did they do to it to clean it up? Or what was it like before? It was a lot faster. And you danced it with castanets. And you know, all these dances had set dance steps that you did, just like you learned the dance steps for Foxtrot and Waltz, et cetera. But dancers did a lot more improvising of their own dance steps in the early Soravon. So it's like you could start out with the set steps, but then you would sort of go off on your own with those clicking castanets. And well, the description stopped right there. Thank you so much, Larry. This is so fun and informative hour. Thank you so, so much. It's my pleasure. It's a pleasure.