 If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump with your hosts, Sal DeStefano, Adam Schaefer, and Justin Andrews. In this episode of Mind Pump, we interview the creators of the company. I'm glad that we finally got somebody like this that could actually get this clear for me, because I have wondered about this whole red light thing for quite some time. We have friends that use it already. So the company's Juve, that's J-O-O-V-V, and apparently they have the best red light therapy products. Now, I'm extremely skeptical, and I question them quite a bit in this episode, because I want to learn more about it. And I'm testing it. And we all are. Actually, they left us one of their big top of the line models. Very, very bright. And we're testing it out. But Ben Greenfield swears by it. Apparently, and I'm not joking here, this is true now. This is what they say, the red light, if you shine it on your testicles, can raise testosterone, among other things. And that's what's actually made it popular. Why would you not want that? Exactly. But that's not the main use for it. Apparently, if you shine it, it goes on your skin. No, these tools have been around for a long time. And anybody who's had physical therapy has probably had this used on them where they're doing the red light infrared over you. It feels like they're doing like an ultrasound on you or whatever. And it's this big thing right now with the biohackers. They're the ones that have made it popular. So they've appeared on a lot of other podcasts talking about this. So we've done a better job of explaining the science behind it. Because before, I didn't really know too much. But it's refreshing to hear that. That always helps to see beyond. Well, I used to talk shit about this stuff. And I felt a little bad at first. But after I talked to the guys, I didn't feel that bad because there are a lot of people in checksters. There's a lot of people scamming people on it because there is good science behind this. But it does matter the wavelengths and what type of red lights you're using. Yeah, that's the part that blew me away. You can't just get a red bulb, right? And that's where I knew it was like, this got to be too gimmicky. Now you see them everywhere all over Amazon. But they're like, no, no, no. And he breaks down the science behind it. What is proven. And then, yes, there are a lot of bullshit ones that are out there. Very few people are putting medical grade red light therapy out there. Yeah, so we're testing it out ourselves. And we talk about our skepticism. Hey, there you go. Yeah, I like psych new words. You like that? About their product and why it's different and all that stuff. So it's a pretty interesting episode. We get into the science of red light therapy. The two people we're talking to are Scott Nelson and Justin Strahan. Also, after we were done with it, they left us one. We said, look, we're gonna be talking about this stuff. And if we like it, of course, anything we like, we're gonna promote. What do we, you know, what's going on? How can we work with you guys? And so they gave us a discount code for Mind Pump Listener. So here's what you do. If you're interested in red light therapy, if you've heard it on Ben Greenfield, you listened to this episode, you wanna give it a shot. They have 60 days. I said sexy. Sexy, I don't know. I know it's on your mind, Eddie. 60 days or- Money back guarantee. Right, so you can literally test it. And they said you'll know within a couple weeks and you just return it. So that's, you can't get any better than that. Go to juve.com. So this J-O-O-V-V.com forward slash mind pump and then use the discount code Mind Pump, all one word, and you'll get 25% off. Did you tell them to the skin? 25 dollars off, sorry. It's 25 dollars, yeah, it's 25 dollars off. Did you tell them the skin benefits too? Because that's another, I mean it's- Well, that was the big one. The big one was people really noticed benefits on their skin. And so I know you're gonna test it. Well, this is what is, so physical therapy. What I'm familiar with at least. And so when he was talking about this, I have seen it used in physical therapy. And then I've also seen it like at my girl's place where she goes for, you know, she's one of those, what do you call them, an esthetician, right? And she pulls one of these things out. So they actually, some of these high end places will have these red lights they use. Now again, I don't know the quality of what those places are using. I do now understand what the top notch quality looks like and also how expensive it is. There's a drastic difference in price on the real deal versus someone that's using kind of a knockoff to try and piggyback off of the science on the red light. There's definitely something you need to make clear because some of these can go for a lot of money. And he explained to other companies that are in the space that are like astronomically more in comparison. So if you look at all those factors, that's kind of- Well, I can't break it down. These guys in the show will get a chance to hear exactly what you're looking for. So if you are someone who's interested, pay attention. Well, McColl is the one that's, that member of McColl. Well, he's who turned us first, kind of fascinated by it. Well, that's why we're here, right? I mean, we first got turned on by McColl. We all have a lot of respect for him and that made us research. We got a lot of DMs. I know I did as far as like- After that episode? Yeah, McColl episode. And they said, well, do you guys think about the red light? Like where should we get and should we get them Amazon? So yeah, we ended up connecting with these guys. So there you go. So again, it's JOOVV.com, forward slash mind pump. And the code is mind pump one word for $25 off. So without any further ado, here we are talking to the JOOVV founders and creators, Scott Nelson and Justin Strahan. So how did this all start? Give us a little rundown of what got you guys involved with this company before we get into the science. Yeah, absolutely. So actually it was my wife, Melissa, that first came across therapy called red light therapy. And I was at a local tanning salon and had beds converted for that purpose. So the bulbs basically were all red and she'd read about some of the cool benefits for skin health as well as overall health benefits. So she signed up for membership and did that for a couple months and was really impressed with the results. She noticed stretch marks that she'd had for several years starting to fade and also had some severe eczema that she'd struggled with for a long time that was virtually disappeared in a matter of like six to eight weeks. Wow. So she was pretty pumped about it and one of the initial challenges was with our family and how busy we are to try to make it over to a salon every single day for this treatment, as you can imagine. So that in addition to the cost, led her to start scouring the internet to try to find something that she could use at home. So she was quite frustrated by what she found because really the only things on the market were these small handheld devices were really designed to use on your face and you'd have to take a significant amount of time just to do your face a little long to try to do other portions of your body. So she was frustrated initially and then she stumbled across some websites that showed these homemade devices and they had used infrared heat lamps like the 250 watt infrared heat lamps. And so she came to me with these kind of do-it-yourself guides and with my engineering background, was put on the top of my honey-do list and it was like, hey, we need to... It's not like build a fence or fix the door and the light bulb. I was like, hey honey, could you just invent this thing for me real quick? No big deal, I got this. And it was pretty, the designs were fairly simple and it wasn't too overwhelming. It was like, yeah, I'm sure we can figure this out and I didn't really dig into the science. So it was kind of more like, okay, so you hook up these bulbs and wire it together and rig it up and push the power button. So we set that up in our bathroom and she was excited about it and it put off a lot of heat and it seemed bright, but she wasn't getting the same effect that she had at the salon with the red light therapy kind of tanning bed. So she started to kind of dig into it further and she wasn't convinced that like, were these the right bulbs? Was this the same sort of thing that she was experiencing in the salon? And encouraged me to dig into the science and I was quite skeptical, to be honest, but she convinced me to dig into it and when I started looking into it, I was really floored by the fact that there is literally hundreds and hundreds of published research studies on this field of light therapy or the technical term, which is photobiomodulation. So I realized, hey, this is like a real thing. It's legit. It's not just, I think this might work. There's actual science behind it. So I started to dig into that and realize that there's really nothing on the market that's designed to do this treatment for your whole body. So I dug in and found basically there was three main factors. The wavelength of the light is very important. And then obviously the intensity of the light. So both of those things, the infrared heat lamps kind of fail on both of those areas because they deliver a wide range of wavelengths and they're also not nearly as intense as what you can get with the devices that are intended for medical grade intensity, which namely LEDs. So let's get into that for a second. There's a long history of science supporting red light or infrared light. Let's talk about that for a second before we get into what you ended up designing. When did that first start? When did that research first start? And what is it used for medicinally? Sure. In the early days, it was called low level laser therapy or LLT and they used lasers at specific wavelengths and they would treat a wide range of health conditions, everything from osteoarthritis to skin conditions to wound healing. And how long ago was this? I was just gonna say how long? Yeah, this is like back in the 60s, 50s even before that. Now was this like FDA approved treatments or was this at the time like wellness stuff or it was kind of on the fringe? It was medical to driven. I'm not sure if it was like FDA approved or if that was really basically gone through with FDA back then, but it was something that was done in the medical community, not necessarily do it yourself at home type thing. It was lasers, so the cost was way up there. You're talking about a small treatment area, you have to be careful because then the possibility of heating tissue and so forth. And it really wasn't until the advent of some research in the early 90s that was funded by NASA that looked into the possibility of using LEDs for the same purposes. So in the past two decades, it's really been more widely known and widely accepted that LEDs can do the same, have the same benefits and effects as the lasers, only now you can treat a much larger area of your body with a much less expensive device. And this is still an early science. I mean, you're not gonna find big, huge companies, big pharma companies, big medical device giants like Medtronic or Boston Scientific in this space right now, but it's definitely emerging in the science of photobiomodulations, kind of a technical term, try saying that three times. Maybe it might be a test before the end of the show, but why do you think that is? Why do you think that is? Well, it's a good question. We asked the same question to Dr. Michael Hamlin, who's a professor at Harvard, arguably one of the world's leading researchers in this field. We're fortunate enough to have him on our scientific advisory board, but I spent my entire career before Juve in the medical device space with some of those companies I just mentioned. And it was very surprising to me that there weren't really a lot of big players in this arena yet. So I asked him the same question. Why so? Like what's the deal? He's a little bit unsure. He's definitely seeing it emerge. There's a lot more money being thrown at clinical studies for light therapy or photobiomodulation, but ultimately they cost a ton of money. And so there has to be a legitimate pathway with the big enough market for a big pharma company, a big device company to fund a clinical trial. And so that may happen here in the coming years. Now the studies that you do see, do you guys see a major individual variance in the people? Like is there a difference with skin tones and is it different with age? Is it different with the time that you use it? Like do you see a lot of variance from each person that's using the light? Yeah, I would say the studies vary quite a bit in terms of even the wavelengths to some extent, the intensity, and also the length of treatment or the total amount of energy delivered. I think one of the reasons that our device actually works better than I really expected to, quite honestly, is a lot of the research for some of the benefits of photobiomodulation is done with a fairly low amount of intensity or low amount of total energy delivered somewhere in the neighborhood of four to five joules per square centimeter. But there's also research specifically for deeper tissue, such as benefits, such as muscle recovery, joint healing, where you're seeing total energy upwards of 60 or even 100 joules. This is what Dr. McCullough talked about when we interviewed him and is actually what led us to you guys that I was so fascinated with. And what I'm going to do from his recommendation is I'm going to train the shit out of my legs and I'm going to read. He recommended that. I'm going to read. I'm going to read one side and not the other side. And I want to see if I actually can feel a difference in recovery. He claims that I will. He says that it actually helps that much in recovery that I should actually feel the difference, which I'm pretty excited to try that out. Well, let's back up for a second. What is red light? How does it work? Like, let's just give a basic rundown because a lot of people listening right now are probably nodding and thinking, what are they talking about? That's right. So at a high level, light therapy basically enhances cellular function. If you want to go a little bit deeper than that, there's four phases of cellular respiration. There's a wide variety of theories as to how red light and near-infrared light actually works at a cellular level. But most researchers in this field have kind of gravitated towards one theory, which involves the fourth phase of cellular respiration. There's a, when you talk about healthy cells, there's a process in that fourth phase of cellular respiration, where NADH binds with oxygen to form ATP synthase, which then is a precursor to ATP. And I think probably most of your listeners are somewhat familiar with that. Yeah, DNA science for phosphate. Yeah, exactly. So when our cells are stressed, when there's oxidative stress, nitric oxide actually binds to an enzyme called cytochrome C oxidase in that fourth phase of cellular respiration, which halts the production of ATP synthase, which then halts the production of ATP. And so red and near-infrared light, long story short to kind of come full circle on this, red and near-infrared light with the specific wavelengths that Justin mentioned at the right intensity breaks that bond between nitric oxide and cytochrome C oxidase, which restores healthy cellular function. And so at a cellular level, you're restoring some of those natural metabolic processes, which is why this therapy has such a wide variety of benefits, such as muscle recovery and relief from joint pain. But it's literally like almost everything under the sun in terms of- So is it raising then nitric oxide levels in the blood as well? Is it breaking a bond, therefore making it more free to do the vasodilating effects and all that? Correct. Yeah. And a lot of our customers will actually comment on that benefit, where especially those are a little bit more in tune with that sort of effect when they've taken an NNO supplement before, an arginine supplement before, something like that. They can tell the vasodilating effect. Now, have they looked at free radical production from that? Because I know elevated nitric oxide can cause elevations in free radicals. Have they looked at if there's a connection between those two things? Yeah. So actually, red light, I mean, when you look at different wavelengths of light, oftentimes you'll see something like blue light, sometimes alone or used in conjunction with red light. With something like blue light, you're actually causing more free radicals or more reactive oxygen species to develop. Whereas red light, most of the time you'd want to use that in conjunction with something like blue light to help restore some of those natural metabolic processes at a cellular level. And so it actually helps induce normal cellular function. Now, in nature, we would be exposed to red light from the sun. How much of the sunlight is coming at us in the form of red light, do you guys know? Or what's the? Yeah, so sunlight obviously has a wide range of wavelengths. So you have from the UV spectrum up to 0 to 400 nanometers. Then you have visible light between 400 and 700 nanometers. And then you have the infrared spectrum from 700 all the way up in the north of 3,000 nanometers. And in that infrared spectrum, that's even broken up into three ranges. So near-infrared, which is between 700 and 1,300 nanometers, is where you also get some of these effects. So part of the red spectrum and part of the lower end of the near-infrared spectrum is where these specific wavelengths fall. So for example, our combo model that has two different wavelengths, the red that's visible light at 660 nanometers, and then the near-infrared wavelengths at 850 nanometers. And both of those specific wavelengths are optimized for boosting that cellular function, or specifically that cytochrome-seoxidase absorption. Is there any potential negative effects like you would get from ultraviolet light or UVB? Or if you get exposed to it, you get adaptations like tanning. But then, of course, you can burn or cause problems. Is there anything to worry about with infrared? There really are very few contraindications that have been shown with red light therapy or near-infrared wavelengths. There's some limited controversy, I guess you could say, over certain skin conditions, such as hyperpigmentation issues, where there's maybe a field that feels like it's beneficial, and then some people that feel like it hasn't been beneficial. But by and large, there's really no adverse side effects to be concerned with. There's zero UV wavelengths in there, so you're not going to get any of that tanning effect or burning effect from it. Very interesting. So how are people using them mostly now? That's our biggest challenge is that it's a huge range. I mean, we have everything from people that are using it to help with joint pain and arthritis. We have professional athletes, such as Devon Canard in the NFL, using it for recovery in the off-season and during training camp right now. And then you have people that are interested in reducing wrinkles on their face that are. Don't forget Ben Greenfield's bowl. Yeah, that's right. Don't forget Ben Greenfield and Albu Marcus for the. Right. So that, yeah. Are there any studies supporting that, by the way? Because I know we went to Ben's house, and Ben is a very interesting individual. And he had me, I had all these devices on my head and I had this light thing up my nose and all these weird things. And then he shows us this big panel of red lights that's like kind of on the floor at an angle. And he's like. He said, put your balls up to it. He goes, yeah. He goes, absolutely, I'm down for that. If you take your pants off and everything, we all stand over this. He goes and shine it on your balls. He goes, it'll increase your testosterone levels. And it was in front of his computer. So I'm assuming he does this quite a bit. What's the science behind that? Is this showing actual results or is this all anecdote? There is actually studies. I mean, I'd say it's early on. There's certainly not an overwhelming number of studies, but the theory as far as how it boosts the, the late excels in the production of testosterone with the specific wavelengths of red and near infrared light, there's certainly some early promising studies that, that do point to point to that fact and even sperm health as well. What about helping people like with vitamin D deficiencies and things like that? Similar benefits like from the sun, it sounds like. Or would you, is that, is that why like maybe some of the eczema is getting helped too? I mean, where's... I would say the main thing that it would help with as far as vitamin D, it's not gonna directly help your body produce it like the UV wavelengths do. But what it is gonna do is help your body to be in a healthier position to be able to take on UV light and form from the sun and help your body be able to metabolize that and turn that into vitamin D. Is this the same light that the physical therapist would use with the infrared? Whether they would put it on your arm if you're hurt or whatever, same stuff. It's very similar. Okay. The main difference with this is you can use it at home. It's using LEDs. So you're not having to worry about lasers where you could potentially overheat tissue. So that's, that'd be the main difference. Yeah. Cause they, I know that physical therapists have been using those for a long time. So I know that there's some, you know, medical approved, I would say approved medical uses. Sure. What are the approved medical uses for infrared? For red and the infrared light? Yeah. When you look at, when you search like the the 510K, you know, clearances for, for, you know, within the FDA databases, they're pretty limited. Yeah. To be honest. And that's largely because all of these, all of these clearances are based on predicate devices. Meaning they were never really studied in the clinical trial. You're just basing it off an already or a pre-approved device. So peri-orbital wrinkles, pain relief, that kind of thing is what you typically see at, you know, when the FDA stamps a, you know, an indication on a certain device. But I would encourage any listeners that are skeptical. You're probably rightfully so. But if you do a search on PubMed for, you know, light therapy or photobiomodulation for X, Y or Z. I mean, the results are almost endless in terms of the number of clinical studies published on this therapy. It's actually pretty remarkable to think that there's, there's not, why there's, why this is not more prevalent is because the number of studies is almost overwhelming. So yeah, I mean, if anyone's skeptical, I, you know, I wouldn't blame them. We were, we were both skeptical too, but, but yeah, I mean, dig through some of that stuff. Is there different protocols for what I'm using it for? So if I'm using it for joint pain versus my balls versus my psoriasis, what, I mean, is there, is there different protocols on how much and how long I should use it for? Yeah, it really comes down to total energy delivered. And a big part of that is the depth of the tissue that you're trying to treat. So if you're treating your skin tissue, it really doesn't take a very high dosage. So with our advice, I mean, literally four to five minutes at say eight to 12 inches away. But if for most of our customers are interested in overall health and cellular health in the long-term benefits, as well as kind of the short-term ramifications, whether it's reducing joint pain, helping with muscle recovery, those types of benefits. And that really takes a higher intensity of light or a total energy delivered. So for those types of benefits, we recommend a 10 minute treatment at about six inches away from our device, which equals about 60 joules of energy delivered per square centimeter. Now, have you guys hacked this where you pair it with anything else too? Like fasting and doing that or doing it inside of a sauna? Or is like, are there some hacks that you guys have played with that tend to make it even better? That's a great question. The latter point you brought up is one that comes up quite a bit. Can you use this inside of a sauna? Or is there evidence to support that you should do it before or after sauna use? There's not really any definitive information. And someone like Dr. Rhonda Patrick, who's published a fair amount of content recently on saunas and the mechanism of action for saunas. When you look at sort of what's happening and you're inducing a heat response in your body, it seems like in theory, you might want to use something like light therapy or photo biomodulation after a sauna, after sauna usage, complete theory at this point. There's not really much scientific evidence to support whether or not you should use it at the same time or after, but based on kind of looking at the mechanisms of action, it would seem like you'd want to use it either before or after. So do you think it's kind of a reached in, this trend of infrared saunas that are happening right now? I'd like to hear your guys' opinion on that. Go ahead and speak openly, this is my pump. Don't hold any punches back. I want to know, it's like a trend right now, it's like the hot thing. Justin wrote a nice piece on sauna therapy versus light therapy. Okay, we'll talk to me there, I want to hear it. There's unfortunately a lot of misinformation about saunas, infrared. I think most of us, when we hear the term infrared, we think of that's like a wavelength or like this near a range of wavelengths, but actually near infrared wavelengths can be broken down into three bands. You have IRA between 700 to 1300, IRB 1300 to 3000 nanometers, and then IRC, which is wavelengths longer than 3000 nanometers. And there's fundamentally significant differences in how your body reacts to those wavelengths. So wavelengths longer than 3000 nanometers, for example, are felt much more as a radiant heat. And the reason for that is they're the moisture that's in our skin and our cell tissues rapidly absorbs that energy. So in other words, it's not penetrating like slowly being absolved or absolved by the body, it's being felt as kind of a very intense warm heat that you feel in your skin. So the example I like to give for this is with sunlight, for example, you're out on outside in a hot sunny day and you feel that really warm intense sunlight. And then you have a cloud that blows over and blocks the sun. You notice the light doesn't really change, it's pretty much just the same intensity as far as how bright it is outside. But the far infrared wavelengths are being blocked by the moisture in that cloud and that's why you feel that heat and just get shut off like a sweat. Interesting. So those wavelengths, so there's basically significant differences in how your body responds to those. And those, yeah, oh, go ahead. Yeah, so for saunas, for inducing heat, those longer wavelengths are much more effective at producing that response of raising the temperature of your skin and cell tissues. So what our devices do in terms of photobiomodulation are much different. There's very little heat that's delivered. You're talking significantly different wavelengths where our near infrared at 850 nanometers virtually delivers zero heat. And it's a totally different mechanism of action from a biological stuff. So that makes me feel like these guys have taken that science and they've piggybacked off of that to make you feel compiled on it. Right, right, to make you feel like you're getting those benefits in the sauna but you're really not. Well, what's interesting, I'm thinking about this from a marketability standpoint. Do you find it challenging because, like, say your saunas, like the person, the individual feels something like they're going into kind of relax and heat up versus like what, you know, the benefits from it, if it's not emitting heat, is something really happening. So do you guys run into that? Well, and we certainly don't knock saunas. I mean, in that post that Scott mentioned, and we talk about the benefits that have been proven from sauna therapy. So primarily the benefits are related to cardiovascular function by inducing heat and heat stress and the enzymes that are produced to react to that. But it's just totally different from photobiomodulation. So as you pointed out, they kind of piggybacked and they'd like to throw around terms like mitochondrial function and cellular health. And like technically, is there some benefits there? Well, probably, but it's not the same thing in terms of what's happening at a mitochondrial level and the cellular respiration and electron chain transport that's been proven with photobiomodulation where it literally has to be those specific wavelengths. So example would be the near infrared heat lamp, for example, some companies that are using those and kind of marketing them as a near infrared sauna. As far as the wavelengths that are applicable for the cellular benefits, you're talking less than two to 4% of the total energy that's being delivered. So in theory, you would get some benefit but you'd have to be in front of it for like 37 straight hours to have the same effect. Wow. So those red stuff, that's like the branch chain amino acids of supplements, bro. Yeah, totally. For all my listeners that can't put all that together, that's what that means. It's like the branch chain amino acids and fucking just sprinkle out of anything. So how deep does this light penetrate? Because if I have joint pain and I'm shining this light on it, obviously my skin's gonna get it. So I like to get deep penetration. Exactly. How deep is it gonna get into the joint? Like how does that work? Sure, that's a good question. So the two wavelengths that we use, the red at 660 nanometers virtually has the same cellular function as the 850 but the red is absorbed more quickly by the skin tissues. So it doesn't penetrate as deep whereas the near infrared does penetrate deeper. And that's where you see this clinical studies in terms of muscle recovery. So an example would be a study that was done on nearly 400 collegian athletes over a period of 15 months that were basically taken off the playing field because they had some sort of an injury, whether it's a ligament, strain, sprain, contusion, you name it, that took them off the field. So they divided them into groups. The group that received the typical therapies and treatments were back on the field in about 20 days. The group that received the near infrared treatments were back on the field in less than half that time at about nine days. Wow. And now the key there is the intensity of that treatment. So they were getting 50 milliwatts per square centimeter for a total delivery of 60 joules which you get in 10 minutes with our combo devices. So unfortunately, a lot of the other players in the space either don't publish the intensity of the light or the total energy delivered and it's kind of a shame because they do a disservice to the science that does exist for the therapy. Do you guys see now this potentially kind of penetrating the market for, like say with athletes doing ice baths, right? After a rigorous session or like a game, do you see like this kind of coming into these facilities and maybe this can even take that kind of over? Replace it or in conjunction? Well, just maybe conjunction, but yeah. I would say conjunction, right? I don't think it would replace it, would it? Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. Actually, I've started doing some cold therapy where you're doing an ice cold bath. I was actually got out in the Pacific this morning for a little bit, but. Oh, you're a brave soul. No, but it's great. It's invigorating and there's certainly benefits from cellular function from that as well, that cold therapy. I didn't have our advice with me at our spot this morning but normally I'll actually like to do the treatments right after the cold baths. So it's a good way to warm up. You get that, it's a slight warmth. It's not a ton of heat but in conjunction with a therapy like that, I think there's definitely some synergistic effects there that are theoretically possible. But you bring up a good point, Justin, though, because our devices fundamentally, when we first launched them were to be designed for use at home. So bringing a medical grade intensity to sort of your home so everyone could use it on a daily basis because the key with light therapy is consistency. You can't just use it once a week and expect to see significant results. And a lot of times it's just easier for someone to use consistently at home. But since launching that, those initial devices, we've had a ton of inbound interest from practitioners from a wide variety of specialties. So chiropractors, functional medicine docs, gyms, all types of different arenas want us to customize certain setups with our devices so they can incorporate those into their facilities. So we're definitely seeing a lot more of that type of interest with complementary types of therapies, cryo, being one of those. That's interesting, yeah, because you guys sort of focused a little bit more on the general public and trying to get at how they could create this sort of rehabilitation or chronic joint pain or all those types of things. But now you're seeing there's even more potential in the athletic realm or the gym crowd. Especially if it's cutting in 50%, that's a big difference. 20 days to nine days is, especially when you talk about the professional level of sports, I mean, that's a big deal. You get your athlete back on the field. Are there some other studies like that? What are the more exciting ones that you guys have seen? Yeah, and when you look at the studies, there's not only, there are a ton of them, but they're all over the place in terms of what the demographic of the participants was, what the researchers were trying to actually study, for what specific element, whether it was reducing inflammation from arthritis, was it muscle recovery, was it restoring sort of the capacity for that athlete to get back on the field, et cetera. So they're all over the place. And they're also, some of them are pretty, pretty well done, double blind placebo studies. Not a ton of participants. You're not, you're rarely gonna see stuff like where the study that Justin mentioned where you've got 400 participants, most of them are smaller in size, smaller in sample size, 40-ish, 30 to 40-ish. But most of them are pretty well done. Some of them are, most of them are prospective in nature, not retrospective, which is another quality sign. But it's literally all over the place in terms of like how these people or how these participants were studied. But at the end of the day, it comes back to which wavelengths were delivered, so was it red, was it near infrared light, et cetera. And then also the intensity, like how many joules of energy were delivered to these participants. And a lot of times it was a decent amount of energy delivered, which you can get, maybe from the sun if you spend six hours a day outside, for example. But we always like to use the analogy of, you can fill up your water jug in the morning with a drippy faucet and eventually fill it up. But why not have a faucet that actually works and fill up your water jug in a 10th of the time. Now at what point, if we're using like the maximum, or your guys' product, we're using your product, is there a point where that kind of peaks, right? Like after I've used it for 20 minutes, I'm not getting any real more added benefits or does it just keep going? How does that work? Yeah, I would say there's a limit to what your cells can really metabolize and absorb and use. So once you get beyond maybe 12 or maybe 15 minutes on the high side for a treatment, beyond that, you're probably not gonna get much additional benefits. To back up to your question on studies, another one that's a pretty impressive one on performance was done on the quadriceps of athletes that were put through a training program. The group that did just the training program had a muscle growth of, I think it was like 20% over the eight week period. And then the group that received the light therapy, it was 30%. So another, basically I got 50% increase in that growth of the muscle. And they did that on peak torque as well as the muscle thickness. So there's definitely some proven benefits in terms of peak performance using therapy, near infrared therapy prior to workouts, as well as studies showing benefits for recovery after the fact. So we've had people like Dr. Makola talk to us about they've done a workout and they know how they should feel the next day after that workout. But they do a treatment with our device right afterwards and they wake up the next day and that's when it's just not there. I'm excited to try. I mean, that's literally what I'm gonna do with it. The first thing I'm gonna do with it. You just do one leg, right? Yeah, I'm gonna do one side. So I can tell the difference, right? Yeah, no, I really am. And I think if you were my husband, I think I'd want you to design me a bathroom that was all these red lights. So I can get out of my cold shower and I can be brushing my teeth and just getting it. It'd be knocking like, right? Absolutely. That's what I want from you, honey. That's why it's on my hoodie. But going back to one of your questions about like treatment algorithm, do you use it before or after working out? You know, another study that the researchers looked at 10 athletes just use light therapy before actually it was a bicep exercise. So they actually induced the light therapy on three different locations of the athlete's biceps. And across three different measurements saw roughly anywhere from 50 to 60% greater peak performance with those athletes. Before, before. Yeah, we're treating before. And so, and I think actually Dr. Merkola actually uses our device before and after his weight training sessions, like his heavy leg is. Well, theoretically, if it's increasing ATP production and nitric oxide, it makes sense to do it before a workout if you had to pick before or after. That would be what I would think. What does a typical treatment look like then? If I get this device, I'd have it at home. What do you recommend, how long and how often? Ideally, you would do it daily. So kind of how it fits into your schedule. You know, different people obviously work out different times of the day. But if you wanted to do it, say before a workout, you know, you'd basically ideally do it on bare skin. So just get undressed and chill out whether you want to meditate or whatever it is. You do, you know, 10 minutes on the front of your body, 10 minutes on the back and go hit it. Interesting. Okay, of course, because you have to turn around, make sure you get both sides of the body. Fascinating. So how long have you guys been in business now? Coming up on two years here before too long. So it's been a wild ride for sure. I mean, we initially started and really envisioned this being more of a beauty space type product because many of the existing products in the market were primarily for skin health and reducing wrinkles and spa treatments, that sort of thing. But, you know, thanks to the interest from really the biohacking community and the work that Scott's done on kind of the marketing side to reach out to, you know, folks like Ben Greenfield and yourselves and Aubrey Marcus, you know, we've had a ton of interest. When did you guys see that turn? Because if you got into it that way, when did you guys realize like, oh shit, we got a whole another group of people that are going to want this? Yeah, well, if Ben's listening to this, Ben, we owe a lot of thank you to him. He's been a good partner. But we saw a pretty interesting inflection point when he started to use our device for a lot of other things beyond just, you know, for skin health. So we were just kind of chatting about this earlier. If you looked at our website a year ago, you know, and you guys didn't know us from Joe, you'd look at that and be like, I don't, this doesn't, I mean, it seems like something my girlfriend would use or my wife would use, you know, and so it's definitely changed. But it's been an interesting ride as more and more people in the biohacking community, we're seeing a lot more interest from competitive athletes, not just in traditional sports like NFL, MLB, et cetera, but also, you know, Spartan race, the CrossFit folks, et cetera. So it's been interesting and I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that you typically see a lot faster results if you're in that sort of arena. So if you hit your legs really hard, you kind of know like, I'm not gonna do squats again or heavy deadlifts for another week because my legs are, you know, are torn up. You know, if you start to see a noticeable improvement within a day or two days, it's like, wow, I mean. Yeah, to me that, when Mercola was saying it, because of course, I think everybody when you first hear this is pretty skeptical, right? Like, oh, put some red lights on my legs and I'm gonna recover faster, sure buddy. So, but when he said, you know, put it to the test and that was the first thing that came to mind was like, man, I'll just train them really hard and I'll do one side and if I can, I know how sore I should be from a workout like that. I mean, I would think that I should be able to tell according to him, I should be able to tell a difference. So, that's pretty interesting. Yeah, and that's something that we typically recommend because we, I mean, by nature, a lot of people are gonna be skeptical of this type of thing, but you know, we always encourage them to do two things. One is, you know, just dig into the science a little bit. Even if you're not a science nerd, it's not like this may sound a little bit complex, but read a few articles and you know, most people get up to speed pretty quickly and then two, you know, we have a, like with us specifically, we have a 60 day no hassle return policy. So it's like buy a device. You don't like it with the 60 days, return it for a full refund and you're good to go. So that's something that we've tried to encourage people to take advantage of because, you know, there's not a lot of awareness about this therapy, but there's a ton of science to back it up. So we feel pretty confident that, you know, once people give it a shot, they'll see the results. So what can people expect in the short term and in the long term with using this on a regular basis? What are people reporting? You know, that's a fascinating thing and if you're not into reading about the science, I would definitely recommend you check out a reviews page and just read all the reviews from our customers and you know, you can get that, you know, the real answer to that in their own words, but it's a huge range of benefits. So everything from, it reduces their stress, they can sleep better at night, they feel more energy, they feel an energy boost, you know, when they use it in the morning, they use it for the muscle recovery, testosterone production. We've had people literally do testing of their testosterone production before and after and with them like documented results. So like what, after like a week or something? This is what Ben claimed, don't you remember? Well, I remember him saying that, but I don't know. I was actually, somebody posted on his Instagram post that posted their testosterone test, I think it was maybe over a month and he was only using our device like two or three days and we're like, man, why aren't you using this every day? Right. Wow, so how do the products come? Cause the one that you guys have here in the studio right now is a big, it's a big full body panel. Is that the only way of getting it or are there smaller versions? Yeah, so we have three different sizes. The one that we've launched with, what we call our original is our midsize device. It's 300 Watts, about three feet long by eight inches wide. And then after that, we launched the, what we call our mini device. That was kind of ideal for people that are interested but it was just maybe too big of a plunge or financial investment with that original size. But since then, after all the interest that we've had from the biohacking community and professional athletes and the fitness audience, we've, we launched what we call our max device and that's what we brought here. So it's 480 LEDs, 960 Watts, as Aubrey Mark has put it, it's bright as the devil's glare. I mean, it's very bright. Yeah, and just for those listening that aren't watching this on YouTube, if you compare all three sizes, that largest one, that max device, I'm about five 10, it treats from my head to just above my ankle or so. So almost a full body device. That middle-sized unit will treat from my head to maybe just feel my groin, something like that. So two thirds of my body, hypothetically, and then that mini is really that mini device, head to just kind of below my clavicle. So that's kind of the variety of different treatment. And now do the two of you change your own personal protocol up? Like are you guys adjusting it based off of your training? Are you guys going on or do you guys kind of have a routine that like every morning when I get up, this is what I do? Like how do you guys utilize it? Yeah, I've got the Combo Max, the same one that you've got here. And I use that daily like I mentioned, I've been doing it after cold treatments. So after ice baths, I'd like to just chill out. I've actually got mine rigged over a massage table so I can lay down while I do it. So which by the way, all of those Max lights do come with posts so you can hang it horizontally, but everybody's kind of set up as a little bit different as far as hanging that so we don't actually have the hardware to hang it from your ceiling. So my girl's a massage therapist so you got me thinking here. So how far can I hang it over the bed? Could she be like massaging me while I'm getting this? Theoretically, ideally you would have it closer to you so ideally you'd want to have it lowered down between like six to eight inches away from your body. Okay, so it needs to be pretty close. And we have some people that have used like a pulley system so you can raise it and lower it and kind of get it right where you want it, but it's definitely relaxing. I mean, we talked with Joe DiStefano who's director of sport for Spartan and the very first time he used it, he got back to us and he was just blown away. He's like, I don't know if this was just placebo effect or what, but I used it today when I got home and it was like, it just, it totally reduced my stress. I just was able to relax. I slept better that night. He's like, I don't know what, maybe it's just my imagination. They're like, no, that's, we get that all the time. Yeah, I'm envisioning this pulley system. I'm envisioning my girl massaging me, leaving me there afterwards and then putting the infrared over me like eight inches and let me kind of rest there for another 10. Like a food warmer. Yeah, like a microwave, right? Not too far off, but there isn't really a definitive protocol to, you know, we typically encourage people whenever you can fit it into your daily routine. In about 10 minutes you were saying? Yeah, I mean, that's, if you've got like a problematic area or if you're trying to really recover from like a heavy squat workout, like we mentioned earlier, you might want to go a little bit longer, but at 10 minutes at about eight inches or so from our device, you're getting a clinically significant dose, about six or seven joules per minute. So at 10 minutes, that's about 60 or 70 joules. So that's a healthy amount. And you guys said that it's actually healthy and good for the eyes, because that was the first thing that, when we first switched it on, I thought, oh, she probably should look at this. But you said that you could look into it. So no problem with the eyes, huh? Yeah, you know, we've talked, as Scott mentioned, Dr. Michael Hamlin on our advisory board, we've obviously quizzed him a little bit about this, but there's actually a significant amount of research showing benefits for eye health. So just like almost every other cell in your body, your retinas have, cells have mitochondria. And basically by these same specific wavelengths, you're able to restore healthy function. So there's actually a study showing benefits for people that have different types of degenerative eye disorders and that it can help reverse those and restore function. Wow, earlier you gave an analogy and said it was using a particular device was equivalent to like six hours of the sun. Do you guys know what that would be for yours? Like 10 minutes on yours is equivalent to how much you would need to be exposed by the sun? It's kind of a hard to say a rule of thumb because sunlight varies so much from where you live, your latitude, time of year, everything. So it's kind of a tough comparison. I would say sunlight, you're probably in the neighborhood of this specific wavelengths for cellular function. You're probably in the neighborhood of three to maybe eight milliwatts per square centimeter and our devices at a hundred. So in the neighborhood between maybe 20 to 50 times more intense of those specific wavelengths. So it's kind of like a jumpstart of those wavelengths. So if you're in the sun all the time, then you might not, it'd be kind of difficult to compare for some people for those of us that live in the upper Midwest where you don't see the sun for seven months out of the year or you just don't have the time to fit it, getting a lot of sunlight in your daily schedule. Or if you're as pale as a ghost like Justin. Yeah. Well, I'm listening. Would you speculate that there's, and I asked earlier about certain types in the individual variants, are you noticing there's types of people that are getting way more benefits than other people? Like if you're somebody who doesn't get a lot of sun or are there certain people that seem to like, man, this really helps them and are certain people that it doesn't as much. It's hard to predict honestly because I think everybody's body is so different in their health. A lot of times people don't aren't even aware of maybe how healthy they are. Because they go off. We talk about this all the time. Most people that think they feel good don't know what great feels like. And so they're just, their norm is. Or their body's compensating or dealing with things. So just because you don't have like a symptom that's like being shown like that day doesn't mean that you're feeling that your body is healthy. So yeah, it's kind of a hard thing to predict. So what we encourage people as far as the timeline and how soon to expect results is like everybody's body's different. So it's hard to predict that, but the research and the benefits for cellular health is pretty solid. So we're confident that it works. But how everybody's body is gonna respond is gonna vary from person to person. And on that note, Justin Strand's wife, Melissa mentioned this when we were at over in Sacramento yesterday with the team, Alpha guys with UFC. And she made a good point. Because of the mechanism of action for photobiomodulation to light therapy, so much of this is preventative too. You're inducing healthy cellular function, which is impossible to study in a clinical trial. You're never gonna collect participants and say, well, we think 10 of these people are gonna get cancer in five years. So we're just gonna test to see if we can prevent that. I mean, you can't sort of measure that. But based on the mechanism of action at a cellular level, you're inducing a healthy metabolic process is intracellular. Well, this is why I was asking you about if you guys have hacked like the fasting with it or do we got a genetic diet or something like that? Other things that could pair nicely with that. I would say one of the things that we've done, I mentioned the cold baths already, but getting early morning sunlight, so you get the specific wavelengths on the sun and one of my favorite things to do that my wife and I started doing in the mornings and we're trying to get our kids involved in this as well, but we live on a lake in Minneapolis and get out in the bare grass, barefoot, being grounded, seeing that early morning sunrise. That has a big role in how your body produces hormones and actually can prepare your body to absorb different types of wavelengths later on the day when there is more UV. So that'd be, I think that'd be something I would highly encourage people to do. I like that. Kids, have you experimented with this with your kids? Oh yeah, absolutely. You could go on our website and see photos of a couple of them staying in front of it but, and even pets, ironically, we have some dog, our old English bulldog loves to curl up in front of it as well. So there's actually, interestingly, that there's literally studies on animal health. I was just gonna ask. Yeah. Well, they're always curling up. I mean, all types of different things, whether it's joints or, yeah. Well, we're definitely gonna test the hell out of it. We'll be very honest. Yeah, totally. In terms of what we noticed from it, but pretty fascinating. I was, what fascinated me was when I first heard about this, it sounded like something kind of new and, you know, and then I looked up some of the literature. I'm like, oh, shit, this goes back a long time. Like people have, we've kind of known about this for a while. And then I remember physical therapists have been using these for a few decades already, or a couple of decades at least. So very, very cool. So you were talking about bio-hackers using this. They're not using it for physical performance, right? What are they using these for? Well, it really came on the same, as Scott mentioned, thanks to Ben Greenfield. He had teamed up with Ollie Sylvie RV from Finland who finished bio-hacker, MD that had done a pretty cool paper on different ways that different technologies to boost testosterone production. And one of the big ones that he talks about was light therapy. And then Ben kind of did a pretty cool video on that as well. So it's really started off with the testosterone production and increased blood flow. And so that's kind of, I guess, when one of the main interests, but as those people reach out to us, they're also asking us about other health conditions that are like, hey, does it help with this? Does it help with this? I have my, you know, the thyroid issue. And then, you know, we send them the research on those things. And, you know, there, we have a lot of times people that buy a device for, you know, because they're trying to treat one symptom or one issue that they're, that's in the front of their mind. And they, you know, are pleasantly surprised that it's helped with other things that maybe they didn't really anticipate it helping with. Yeah. And a lot of times, I mean, we've got a fair amount of information on our side alone, but a lot of times when customers are reaching out to us, we'll send them the PubMed study itself. And like, this is the jewels that were used in this study. This is the amount of, you know, this is what it's gonna take, you know, to get that same amount of energy with our device so they can kind of make the correlation, but it's literally, I mean, the evidence is there, you know, and so that's what we typically, you know, try to encourage people to do is, you know, science is there. Now, where can we find this product? Yep. Our website is juve.com. That's J-O-O-V-V.com. And in the upper left, you've got the Learn page and there's several different articles on many of which we've mentioned today. So different health benefits, kind of compare Saunas, for example. You know, you can read through any of those and all those link to Pulpurs Clinical Research. So you can see, you know, the references and what those cite to. And if you're not into digging into the science so much, if you read through our reviews page, you know, that's a great way to kind of learn what firsthand from our customers what their experiences are as well. Yeah, and I would just encourage, there's one article in particular that's called the definitive guide to choosing a light therapy device. And so obviously we sell a product, a light therapy product. We don't wanna be, you know, we don't wanna look like we're just gonna promote our product alone. But that article is a, you know, a pretty non-biased way for anyone that's like looking into this and wants to kind of know what things should I look for? When I'm researching a light therapy device, check out that article and pretty much all the information's there for, you know, that will help you make an informed decision. And how much can people expect to invest if they buy your product? I know you said there were three different sizes. Yep. What are the price ranges there? So the ranges goes from $495 all the way up to $29.95. You know, so the max device is a, you know, significant investment for virtually all of our customers. Is that what we have in here? Yep. Oh, shit, we owe you one. Yeah. You're gonna be asking for a reach around before you leave. I realized that thing was three grand, Jesus. But honestly that, but it compares favorably with devices that are, you know, 10 to 20 times as expensive. There's a LED bed made by Lightstem that's $60,000 and there's a bed that has a kind of a top and bottom that's made by Thor Laser called the Novathor bed that's in the six figure range. So the other products on the market that are really in the neighborhood are, you know, way more expensive. So, that's why- Well I think the good thing is you guys have that 60 day trial. Yeah. Cause it is a large investment but somebody could literally use it and then just return it if they didn't like it it didn't work for them. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, believe it or not considering kind of the lack of overall awareness of this therapy, you think our return percentage would actually be a lot higher than it is but it's very small. I mean, when most people buy this, they're- Well, it sounds like it's one of those things where it's like you put it to the test and you're gonna know pretty quick, you know? I feel like as soon as I apply it, I'm gonna know, you know, it's gonna be one of those things where it's like, oh, I'm not sure. I feel like if we train I'm pretty aware especially if you're somebody who knows your body pretty well, right? If you're pretty aware of your skin, you're pretty aware of your sex drought, your libido, you're pretty aware of your training and your soreness, like I'll be able to tell right away. I'll use it today. Yeah, cause I'll be just- Just wear clothes, okay. Oh, no, you're not supposed to. Yeah, that's why I heard it's why I'm worried. You're supposed to be naked. Well, thanks for coming down. Thanks for letting us try that. So we'll put it to the test. We'll give our honest opinion for our audience and kind of hear what we think about it. So thanks for coming down. Yeah, thanks for having us. No problem. So check this out, 30 days of coaching available for free at mindpumpmedia.com. Also, if you go to YouTube, check our channel out, Mind Pump TV, we post a new video every single day. You can also find us on Instagram, Mind Pump Media is the page. My personal page is Mind Pump Sal, Justin's page is Mind Pump Justin and Adam is Mind Pump Adam. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Superbundle at mindpumpmedia.com. The RGB Superbundle includes MAPS anabolic, MAPS performance and MAPS aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. 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