 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today I'm honored to be joined by Mandy Smith from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Mandy welcome to the podcast Thanks for having me Bart Sure, so yeah, you are the director of education at the rock hall Which that's what the cool kids call it is the rock hall, right? Is that the short shortened version? Yeah, yeah, that is Good. Okay. Just making sure So I think a good way to start this off Because we're both in Ohio the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is in Cleveland, Ohio I'm in Cincinnati, Ohio, but for people around the world I think it is like internationally known what it is obviously But why don't you maybe explain what the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is and and then we'll go into some other cool Stuff about your job there Sure, the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame actually was it was founded in 1983 when a few Industry folks like Jan Winner and Ahmed Erdogan got together and said we need a Hall of Fame for Rock and Roll The first class was inducted in 1986 and we've inducted a class every year since and then we actually opened a museum here in Cleveland, Ohio in 1995 So there we celebrate our inductees, but also just really the whole story of rock history So you'll see artifacts from people who have yet to be inducted Wow, you know to be honest because I'm going into this not knowing a ton. I've been there. It was awesome I went there maybe when I was like 16 or 17, so I don't know 15 years ago I thought it would be older than that I thought it would have been around a lot longer than 83 and then the museum opening in 95 It's pretty cool. And I mean, it's it's relatively new I guess sort of In the big picture. Yeah, and the grand scheme of museums, especially we're we're a young museum, you know Yeah, just turned what 25 years old 26 years old. Yeah Interesting. Okay, so there's a lot of facets to the museum And I think the education part of it from looking at your website and kind of digging in more Is really cool. So so why don't you tell us about your job as director of education? What do you do in that role? Well, I always tell people that it's it's not just a dream job. It's like Probably 20 of my top 25 dream jobs. I get to do them all at the museum So I get to oversee our whole education department all of our free online sources So if you're a teacher, you know, check out rockall.com slash education. You can sign up for a free account I also oversee our onsite programs And we serve everyone from pre kindergarten all the way through college. So we kind of run the whole gamut That I also get to be in charge of our interactive instrument exhibit the garage where anyone can come and Rock out on an instrument regardless of whether you have picked up an instrument before ever in your life We can get you rocking out within a few minutes And then as the as the resident drummer I get to do all kinds of fun things like I got to build Keith moon's pictures of lily drum set It was on exhibit a couple years ago When kirk and rob of metallica were here, but lar's was not here They wanted to jam and so I got to live out my lifelong dream of being the drummer for metallica for like five minutes And oh my gosh, what was that like that had to be? nerve-wracking It was it was nerve-wracking, but it was also super fun because They're just really cool dudes and they just wanted to jam and have fun Uh, so it was I say it was the best Professional moment of my life Absolutely, and you said it I should have mentioned it before you are a drummer Which you know by definition your job doesn't mean that you have to be a drummer because you obviously deal with a large array of instruments and collectibles and stuff, but um like you told me before you are a drummer punk prog rock alternative Uh, it sounds like a little bit of everything. Um, which really came in handy that day with metallica It sure did and it's just it's coming handy, you know Managing that garage space. Uh, I'm also, you know, uh an amateur at many of the other rock instruments, but drumming I'm a drummer at heart and that's definitely my best instrument. Yeah, and that's why you're really, uh, you know Specifically on this this show today, which um, I got to say thank you to matt brennan Who's been on the podcast a few times he did a two-parter on I believe it was the history of working drummers or something along those lines And you're you're contributing to the book which would be the cambridge companion to the drum kit, correct Uh, yeah, that's out now Oh cool Awesome, so people can check that out, but I think a lot of people know matt in the drum world and stuff So thank you to matt for connecting us, but um All right, why don't we just hop in here then with um, you sent some great bullet points, which are very helpful. So um drummers in the first couple classes of inductees talk about that Yeah, so it's it's interesting when you look at it actually, um, you know, a lot of people point to 1988 which was the third Uh induction ceremony as being the first drummers But if you actually go back to the first year James brown was inducted and although we don't think of him as primarily a drummer He is a drummer. So if you think about it, james brown was the first drummer ever inducted into the rock hall Wow, uh, then in 87 you actually get a few more of those you get marvin gay eddie cochran and bow Bodigly again not known primarily as drummers, but definitely are drummers and then obviously have a very keen sense of rhythm But then 1988 you get you start to get drummers drummers, you know people that are inducted for being drummers Uh, and the the first two are ringo star and denis wilson because you get the Beatles and you get the beach boys in in 1988 So they are and just to kind of clarify that so they're inducted um Their bands are inducted correct. So the beach boys and the Beatles would be inducted and You know air go those two drummers are then officially inducted as well um Because like I guess each member would be inducted. You know what I mean like how you kind of yeah classify it and and sometimes you know, uh, some members will or won't be inducted based on How long they were in the band how important they were to the band? So, you know if someone if a band started in The 60s and they had the same drummer until Uh the 90s and then their last two years they had a drummer that drummer might not be inducted Gotcha, but Usually the the core the key members of a band all get inducted I'm sure that raises some issues. I I feel like there's um, there are some Just some some tension that can come with the rock hall and who's inducted and who's not inducted Uh, which you know, it's all from an outsider. It all adds to the fun of like the um the drama of it but I'm sure On the inside it can be a little like again just Drive you nuts that people are upset that this guy wasn't and this girl was and it's a lot Yeah, it can be and it's interesting though. I always try to look at it. Um Because you know people love to love the rock hall, but they also love to hate the rock hall sometimes and What that tells me is We're doing something important, you know people care about this music so Much and they care so much about what band members are inducted with what bands And what order different bands get inducted in and things like that So I try to put a positive spin on it and look at it like people really care about what we are doing Yeah, it almost has like uh, kind of a parallel to like sports or something where like people love it So much and then they get someone like a trade goes bad and I'm like the least sports guy in the world but like it it just seems to Uh Really get people's passions worked up. Um big time but so ringo and denis wilson both of which I think are interesting because they're not the um You know blow chops kind of drummers they're they're band drummers really And especially denis wilson is especially interesting because you know, he's a very good drummer Uh, I don't think anyone would deny that but he rarely makes like, you know top 25 drummers of all time Yeah, or anything like that. Whereas ringo often does. I mean he's still a very much a band drummer But he was so just creative in the beats he chose to use and such a influence on on future drummers, but uh, that just kind of shows you how different the rockle is from something like You know the the modern drummer hollow fate Sure. Yeah, good point and denis wilson I'm not the expert on this at all But it's interesting because I mean famously howl blaine played drums on a lot of the recordings So then that's another like um Just another layer to go deeper of like how does it all work, but i'm sure you guys have plenty of things figured out with all that but um So how blaine is inducted too, but he doesn't get inducted until Let me find my notes the year 2000 and he gets inducted in the the sidemen category, which is kind of like People who you know contributed to rock and roll, but weren't really like in bands getting inducted So people like that's interesting Benny benjamin earl palmer dj fontana. Yeah, yeah, which is great because those Those guys and i'm sure girls too you you you don't want to leave them out You don't want to be like well, you're not um like i feel like there's categories in the grammy's and the oscars and things where it's like uh you Your your album is not country enough to be country, but it's not pop enough to be pop. So you get nothing You get nothing you get yeah, you're done All right, well then let's talk about um female drummers and you wrote in parentheses or lack thereof because that's Uh, you yourself are obviously a very rocking female drummer, but like that's a thing in our world of Um, I think it's getting better. I hope um, but maybe not in the big I mean, I think of the rock hall is like the top of um being um recognized And you call it rock's highest honor Yeah, yeah, there you go. So what's up with uh women in the rock hall? Yeah, and I think it's it's interesting because if It does make sense of course that there would be more men inducted than women because there have been more men drummers Throughout history and especially uh with our one hard and fast rule is It has to be 25 years after your first record release So we're just now getting into the the period where 90s bands are becoming eligible Uh, but I still think I hope we start inducting more Women musicians women drummers because right now we actually have two women drummers inducted into the rock hall Is it uh, what how what's her name from the from the go-go's? Um She was number two. Gina shock. She just got in last year. Yep. Yep. Okay. Who's the other one? The first one ever was uh mo Tucker of the velva underground Okay, you know, I think Karen carpenter. I mean, I'm sure you know, she You know run that up the flagpole and say Bart sent uh his suggestion I will I totally agree. I mean, yeah, Karen carpenter is such a killer drummer I mean, it's it's just amazing Yeah, even out of those other two who are phenomenal drummers, but Karen carpenter is like a uh I mean just a a solo. She's she's a play chops go nuts kind of drummer. Um, as opposed to she's great in the band great singer Interesting story there as well, but Yeah, that's uh, I'm sure it'll change I like you said which it's interesting to hear about how the band it has to be 25 years from the For the album release the first album, right? Yep. Yeah, okay Yeah, so I mean, I think female drummers started to pop up more in the um In the 90s, I would say that's fair to say Yeah, I think so too, uh and even more so with female bassists Which there are actually only two of those in the rock hall too, but I bet we especially see more of them coming up in In the next few years Yeah, yeah, I need to keep in mind that it's like, oh, yeah, we're not just we're talking about drummers primarily But really in the big picture we're talking about the bands and the musicians and um and all that stuff. So, uh, yeah okay, so, um What about so next we have big name drummers induction timeline Talk about that Yeah, I was looking at some of the, you know, the people that do make the top drummers of all-time lists and just kind of looking at when They got inducted and so you have uh You know a few in the 80s you've got ringo star and 88 Keith watz or i'm sorry charlie watz in uh 1989 Uh, but then in the 90s you start getting some more So you get chief moon inducted with the who in 1990 ginger baker with cream in 1993 Uh, then bonham finally gets in in 1995 with uh, led zeppelin Uh, and so then you start to get a lot of those, you know Big 70s drummers. Yeah, which makes sense because of course, we're gonna get those in the mid 90s. Yeah Because of that timeline like you said which again, I've always wondered how does this work? How how are they choosing these people but That helps narrow it down where there's a bit of a funnel of it. Just you can't because I almost I honestly just thought it was like Um, let's just pull some names out of a hat or something But there is a bit of a structure obviously of course Yeah, yeah, it's it's interesting. I've learned much more about that process since working here and it's it's really an involved well thought-out process where like Uh, there are 30 or so people on the nominating committee every year And they get in a room and have a meeting basically all day Where they each bring a couple names to the table of artists They think should be on the ballot and then they you know All make their arguments about who it should be and they don't leave that room until they have the ballot of Usually like 11 to 19 people Hmm now, how does it work with there's some years where I hear about the inductees and I think to myself like That's not exactly rock and roll or which is again totally fine. You guys know what you're doing But like how would it work with like a drummer like let's say buddy rich or something like that I mean not that I I even think buddy wouldn't you know, he'd be honored But he'd probably be like I don't play rock and roll Something like that. How does that work with like the guys like that who are phenomenal famous Maybe one of the most famous drummers in in history. Um How does does he have any chance of getting in if he's not already in or something? You know, how does that work? I think he does and I would love to see especially like a gene krupa. And I mean he had exactly so much to do not just with music but just Making the drum set what it needed to be for rock and roll to be able to exist out, you know working with with zilgen and And uh slayerland and things like that to just make drum hardware what it needed to be Uh, but neither of them are in yet But I think if they did get in they would get in in one of the sort of special categories. So we have That sideman category that later became changed to the award for musical excellence But then we also have an early influence category and that's where I think someone like a buddy rich or gene krupa could be in Because jazz is obviously a root of rock and roll that leads into rock and roll. And so, you know, we already have um Robert johnson and charlie patin and uh, Mahalia jackson and jimmy rogers and hank williams in that category Um, and I would like to see some more jazz in that category. I feel like We could we could definitely have some more jazz in there Uh, but we get the question all the time like oh, why is so and so on the ballot? Um, you know this year's ballot just got announced, uh, maybe last week and it's got everybody from Tribe called quest to m&m to dolly parton to the mc5 to the Eurythmics on it and uh Really, there's so many ways you can define rock and roll But we define it as broadly as possible So we think of rock and roll as sort of like the trunk of a tree and it has all these roots country music duop 10 pan alley uh Rhythm and blues But it also has all these branches like funk and disco and then they branch up even further to become hip-hop and Then there's sort of a garage rock which turns into punk music and things like this and we Really want to celebrate all of that music because we see it all as being Interrelated throughout the history of the 20 and 21st centuries Obviously that is something though that i'm sure leads to controversy where people go Why is m&m being inducted that that clearly is something that uh for people who that irks them um, that's got to be one of those points where you know again but you're you're trying to really highlight and um Raise up these people who are influential in in a lot of genres. So I say more power to you. Um people work hard and and it's it's just like a You know, it's it's such an honor for any any musician of any kind to be inducted. So Why not why not include everyone? You know So, um All right drummers who are Uh inducted two times. This is an interesting category that you sent over. Um That's fascinating. So give a couple examples of that There are actually only a couple examples of that But I think there could be more in the future. Uh, so right now Ringo is inducted twice. He's inducted with the Beatles and then he actually got the award for musical excellence for um The huge impact he's had on rock history Not just through the Beatles, but also through I mean he really changed the game in terms of sort of like His all-star band and the idea of sort of like a legacy tour and musicians getting back together So he kind of changed the music industry in several ways And then the other one is dave grohl who was inducted with nirvana as a drummer But then he also got in with the foo fighters So not mainly as a drummer because he's you know more of their Uh singer songwriter guitarist, but you know, we know he does play drums on some of the tracks and things like that Yeah, but I think that there could be other people in the future I mean bill bruford is in with yes, but when king crimson gets in he could be a two-timer Yeah, uh matt cameron's in with pearl jam if sound garden gets in which I really hope they do he would be a two-timer Yeah Interesting god sometimes you don't realize that these um musicians Have played with you kind of you don't really realize the impact of playing with two Of some of the biggest bands in the world like lightning has struck twice for people Wow really has so um Who do you want to see uh inducted on on you know your list of drummers that you're you're into and you like That's a good question. I I do feel like gene krupa is near the top of my list just I feel like He had such an impact on like I said making the drum set And drumming style what it needed to be for rock and roll to be able to even exist Um, I'd like to see some other you know old jazz drummers in too, but I'd also like to see uh, you know More women in I'd love to see the runaways get uh in I'd love to see You know some of these 90s bands. I'm a huge patty schemmel fan Uh, yeah The first time I heard hole in the 90s. That was the first time I heard a woman drummer Just beating the life out of the drums, you know, and that's yeah, that's what I wanted to do Yeah, yeah I think I also have to throw in rage against the machine who is actually on the ballad again this year The brad wrote is just Oh, he is a monster drummer. I've never seen a drummer have Such volume but also such funky groove and be able to do both of those things So well, absolutely. I have tickets from 2020 that got Postponed or was it 2021 they got postponed and then I just got an email like two days ago Or no, no, not two days like like two weeks ago saying they're postponed again From 2022 so it's happening like in 2023. So it's like Oh my god, I just want to see rage in uh, that's in Detroit. Um, which Which is pretty close to you. Um Yeah, and I have tickets to another one of their shows, but I I don't think I got the update yet about the It was like the first it was like the first half of the tour. So after a certain day at it, uh, They were like, all right, we'll do the tour after I think it was in Gosh in the summer it continues on like normal, but Yeah, Brad will can rage that would be an awesome one. But but it raises the question of like Would rage want to do it because You know what? I mean, they're like sort of They need to be raging against some type of a machine and maybe the raw call would be the machine But I think it's such an honor Um, I don't know. I think who knows you don't know but but yeah rage I actually talked to brad briefly talked to brad will he started following me on instagram and I messaged him and said I just I don't do this often, but I gotta tell you I love I grew up loving rage and he went like, oh, thanks, buddy I appreciate it and I was like, it's all worth it Up to this part. So cool Yeah, I wonder I bet they would come just because and I I've had the same thoughts I'm not a hundred percent sure but Zach Taylor Rocha did come and actually induct patty smith when she got into the raw call And I think he would be the one who would most likely be like no, we're not doing this guys Yeah, but if he came and dutched patty smith, maybe they would come. I hope so. Yeah. Yeah, totally. I mean, it's a very cool and um It's just different than I mean, it's a museum. It's a it's a it's a it's has a lot of history and and which kind of leads me to the next thing I want to talk about which is uh the museum and things that are on, um, Display and what people can expect if they go there and maybe if people Geographically in another country never have any chance to go Maybe you can describe what it's like. I mean everyone kind of knows I think that it's a gigantic pyramid shaped building Which you can't really miss Which I don't know if you know history about the building itself. I mean, that's pretty iconic that that that shape Yeah, and it was it was designed by I am pay who also designed the Louvre. Yeah so, um That's pretty amazing. Yeah And we're actually getting ready to Build on and build on a new expansion To actually make the museum even bigger, which is very exciting Wow, so stay tuned more to come on that. Uh, we have not broken ground yet. So we'll we'll see I'm sure it's going to be awesome Totally, but all right. So so maybe again describing to people who won't be able to go there like what can you typically see like I remember looking at like Uh handwritten like John Lennon like lyrics and you know, there's Jimi Hendrix's pants or something like that There's all this kind of cool stuff. So I don't know you walk through the door and then what do you see take it from there Yeah, so you see uh seven floors worth of exhibits and artifacts Um that are arranged According to different themes. So right now right when you walk in the first thing you see is our it's been said all along exhibit Which we made in response to The murder of george floyd and all of the you know, just horrible Things that were happening in terms of race relations in 2020 So it is really all about how black musicians have been responding to racism and injustice throughout the whole history of rock and roll So that is currently one of my favorite exhibits Then as you go through our main exhibit hall, it's you know starts with the roots of rock and roll And ends with our right here right now exhibit and just sort of tells the story of different styles and movements in rock Uh then um on in different parts of the museum. We have rotating Exhibits that come and go So right now we have a great legends of rock exhibit on floors four five and six that just has Some really iconic instruments drummers would be interested in we have a whole like A little display on the roots and we have this great quest love drum kit that uh Like each drum has different panels on it that has like it's one finish and then another finish and another finish Like between each of the lugs. Oh cool I've never seen anything like that. It looks super awesome It kind of sounds like uh the Ludwig I forget the exact name but like the salesman special or whatever I forget someone else is going to be screaming at their podcast at their phone right now yelling the name of it But I think it's it's the salesman and the uh the drummer Gosh from the black keys whose name is escaping me right now. Um He uh, it's it's yes, ohio is can't can't enter acron. Um, but it would be strips of the different finishes So the drum uh the the retail the salesman could go around and just show one drum Uh, I if that's but it almost you could be describing something totally different, but that is a Ludwig thing, but um That's that's cool. So so i'm also interested as we're talking about the museum All of this stuff from these great drummers Is it all donated does the rock hall purchase some of this stuff? You know, how does that work? That's a good question since we are a non-profit We don't buy a lot just because we don't have the funds to compete with private collectors who could spend $3 million on jimmy hendrix's guitar so we rely on Uh people who do have three million dollars to spend on jimmy hendrix's guitar Loaning it to us so that they can share it with the world and we can put it on display Uh, we also get lots of loans from the artists themselves and from their estates And then sometimes we get donations from them as well like hey, we want this to live on forever You know, I know this guitar is an important part of history. I'm giving it to the rock and roll hall of fame Uh, and then we also have uh some relationships with other museums where Sometimes we will um get a traveling exhibit from them or give them a traveling exhibit something like that so it comes from a lot of uh You know really different It comes in from a lot of different ways Yeah, because I I hear these stories of um You know someone buying ringos bass drum head for millions of dollars from Ed Sullivan and it's like You know That does belong in a museum, but your guys competition almost is the eccentric millionaire who's buying things up And it does, you know, it's just sort of uh, but there's nothing wrong with that if I was an eccentric millionaire I'd be buying you know awesome gear all the time Yeah, but but you know, it's good to know it makes sense that they buy it And then instead of it just sitting in their office. They share it with the rock hall and I'm sure it gets a little Tag or whatever like a plaque or something that says Um, but is security a big thing there? Of course, I'm sure everything is locked up and safe and Yeah, and security is there 24 seven. So we're only closed two days a year, but security is there on christmas day You know making sure that everything is okay and uh, and not just security, but also You know, we have like this whole humidifier system that we have to keep everything at the right humidity and Uh climate control and and things like that. So it's a pretty complicated but interesting process to preserve the materials Yeah, yeah Have you had that you can speak of any of like these like I think of like the thomas crown affair or something These like situations where someone's like sneaking in trying to steal Jimi Hendrix's pants or whatever it is like either trying to like slip out with uh, Not that I know of but I feel like We should write a movie about that. I feel like that would be really fun. I would totally watch that Yeah, that's awesome. Um All right, so then you being the director of education you talked about it before about what you do But um, so obviously you probably work with a lot of kids Is this the local cleveland neighborhood like, you know people people come in and they a lot of school trips What's your day today like yeah, so we have a lot of different programs We have a toddler rock program Which is adorable where three to five year olds come in every single week and work with a team of music therapists to Learn their letters, but you know, they're learning the letter a through Dancing to orisa franklin's music and and things like that Um, then we have What we call rock in the schools, which is our kindergarten through 12th grade field trip program where kids come in from their school or their classroom and uh, take an educational program with us and Do activities around the museum? And then we also partner with our local Cuyahoga community college And offer a history of rock and roll course. So, you know, you can take rock history And the museum is your classroom um Yeah, then also, you know, we have relationships with different sort of scholarly organizations like the american music and logical society So we have musicologists come and lecture we have uh Like I said, we have that online platform which serves pre kindergarten through college as well um So all kinds of things and I guess one of the one of the funnest classes I had though is I was doing this program in the museum just for regular visitors and A whole charter of hell's angels came in and they were my students for like 15 minutes and They were wild. It was so much fun That's awesome. Wow I bet you didn't expect that coming from coming from like toddlers learning their letters to hell's angels Yeah It it is now. Are you involved? Obviously the education thing is obviously different from from the event I feel like people kind of think of the rock hall for that That one day where it's the you know, it's aired on tv. It's the the induction ceremony Like it's first. Have you been to the ceremony? I know the tickets are supposed to be super expensive and you know Hard to get you know, I've been every year that I've worked here. So I started going in 2016 or something like that Uh, it's it's an amazing night because you just see people on stage together that you would literally never see on stage together anywhere else Wow, oh man. I mean that is just such It's a pretty long event, right? I mean give us the whole rundown of that Like I mean are a lot of celebrities and stuff are in the audience. You just it has to be mind blowing I'm sure it really is mind blowing especially when it's in cleveland because sometimes those celebrities will stop by and tour the museum beforehand and so You really just never know what is going to happen induction weekend And it's just great to see uh Because I don't even know some of the surprise guests who are going to be there um, so, you know, sometimes I'm totally surprised by somebody coming out on stage and um, especially this past year was just It's the most star studded thing I have ever seen or been involved with in my life like hands down totally Yeah Yeah, so you said if it's not in cleveland, where is where do they where else do they hold it? Uh Usually it's like every other year cleveland new york cleveland new york, but uh, sometimes that changes We've had a few out in la too. Uh, sure. Yeah That makes sense. All right, and now I got asked the question I I feel like I know as a Ohioan because it's a good state and all this stuff Why is the rock and roll hall of fame in cleveland, Ohio? That is a great question and one that we get a lot. Uh, so Ever since they founded the rock hall in the 80s, they wanted there to be a museum somewhere and so Uh, but they wanted that museum to be in a city that was really important to Early rock and roll like in the 1950s And so they came up with a list of cities like new orleans and menthis and chicago and cleveland was on that list because uh Uh A lot of people don't know the first what most people consider to be the first rock and roll concert ever Happened in cleveland, ohio It was called the moondog coronation ball and there were all these early rock and roll do-op You know kind of groups there and it was so rock and roll that they actually accidentally oversold it And it got shut down like after the first song. So it was so rock and roll that it didn't even really happen Yeah, that's pretty rock and roll right there that it gets shut down And then also um, allen freed is a dj who uh was in cleveland, ohio for a long time And while he was in cleveland, he is credited as the first person to take the words rock Roll put them together and use it to refer to that specific style of music So that's why cleveland was on the list to begin with and then it was just a combination of Uh, we had people who were our city was willing to put up the money to have the museum built here, but also um, I believe it was time magazine put out a poll saying where should the rock call be and one of these seven or eight cities and One thing that i've learned since moving here is clevelanders love their rock and roll More than anyone loves rock and roll on the planet And so, you know, it was the 80s or 90s So people called into time magazine And cleveland just blew it out of the water. Everyone was like it has to be in cleveland. It has to be in cleveland And so wow cleveland cleveland is cool. I've been a few times I'm about four hours south because i'm right on the border of kentucky and uh, ohio But um cleveland it's similar to Cincinnati. I feel like a lot of these ohio kind of like I guess you'd say river cities are um, you know, they have a similar feel But I definitely like cleveland. Um, what are your thoughts totally unrelated as a cleveland You know person about the the bangles being in the super bowl. Are you guys happy that it's an ohio team? Or would you rather it be the the browns? Yeah, so i'm like Probably the worst person to ask that question because i'm not a big smolder person Uh, but i am now People seem like kind of excited. They're talking about it. So that's good. Um, but cleveland's do love They love their home teams. You know, they love the browns. Exactly so much. Yep Yeah, we we in hit Cincinnati climbed our way out of the uh, 30 years of disappointment Again, not a big football guy, but you sure as hell become one when you're going to the super bowl In a week. Um, but that's probably the first and last time football will be talked about on this podcast So, um, where are you from originally you said you're not so you you move to cleveland for this job to to work there I actually moved to cleveland to, uh, get my phd where, uh, i'm case western And actually wrote my dissertation on rock drumming, uh, which was really exciting and then, uh While I was sort of in the middle of that process, uh job at the rock hall opened up and I was like I have to that has to be my job and now I'm gonna be a lifelong clevelander because I can't imagine leaving You know writing your dissertation about that that's an interesting about rock drumming you I've I've seen a lot of people um Who have sent me messages and stuff saying ham writing it about double drumming up to double bass drumming, which is one that I'm gonna actually have him on the episode Do an episode soon, but um, that's cool. You did it your you know dissertation on rock drumming because it's not You think people do jazz or I've talked to people who did uh colleen clark did the history of the jazz ride pattern What was the if you had to summarize it in a you know a couple minutes What would be what was your takeaway from doing your dissertation on rock drumming? Yeah, so basically what I was looking at is um, the concept of the primitive which is a pretty problematic concept Uh, but that often gets you know mapped onto drummers if you think of lake, uh, muppets animal I've got my tattoo right here. Um, there you go But then you think of the concept of the virtuosic someone who's just really a master at their instrument Um, and you think of that as sort of being like high brow And you think of the primitive as kind of low brow, but in drumming Those things often happen at the same time if you think about Keith moon No one embodies the primitive more than Keith moon and he's such a virtuosic drummer And so I really kind of dug into What makes drumming so special that these two things that we wouldn't think of as overlapping So often overlap in drumming and so it kind of goes through uh A lot of different drummers and sort of talks about those concepts Uh separately, but then also kind of talks about them together too I mean if you had to say, you know, if you're on the elevator with someone What was your result like what would you say is the final result of like there's just something in our brains that make us think like that or What was your final sentence of the Um, well, I think it just has to do with really kind of the concept of Africa and so we often For better or worse kind of paint Drums as originating in Africa and originating with these quote unquote primitive people Um, which if you know, you know anything about Africa. It is not just filled with a bunch of primitive people in the year 2022 Um, yeah, but then you get a lot of types of African drumming that are highly virtuosic And so it's kind of even in drumming history before we get to rock and roll that those concepts Kind of overlap with one another and then On top of that in sort of like the western world We like to privilege thinking about pitch and melody and harmony Over thinking about things like rhythm and timbre. So then when something like rhythm or timbre becomes Really to the expert level. It's just this clash of values um that Breaks our brains and that's yeah one of the things that makes drumming amazing Yeah, you know, and I I it's to not go digging into my phone into my messages. I did I can't remember who it was I was talking with someone about he sent me a really cool message that was talking about how um Like we all know and matt brennan talked about on on his episode his episode early on was um drummers we get this connotation of being idiots or you're just hitting things which is so you know wrong But what this person said and I'm again, I'm sorry. I can't remember who it was they said Everyone he's talked he said everyone he's ever talked to Everyone which I thought was cool that he's heard on this podcast Um are all incredibly nice and extremely intelligent yourself obviously included And very very passionate and uh are the opposite of that so it's almost to say that like Of course, okay that stupid stereotype of drummers just hitting stuff and drooling and All that stuff, but it goes the opposite way where they're actually Very nice and very kind and happy to help people And uh even doing interviews people just be like, uh, you know, I'll talk to someone briefly and then the next thing I know There's like they sent like a hat or something just something like that where it's like you like go over the top With the friendliness, but also it's just you speak to them and they're just uh a lot of drummers too their day job will be Um, oh i'm an accountant or oh i'm a i'm a surgeon or i'm a doctor. I was one person. It's like i'm a priest and it's like There's no rules for our You know What makes a drummer a drummer and that goes for men and women obviously Yeah, I I agree and you know, sometimes I'll read about even just a famous person who I find out was a drummer like Did you know tipper gore as a drummer? No Yeah, you gotta like imagine that um And all right, so you're the you're the history expert wasn't tipper gore. Didn't she lead the like The censorship the pmr cp hearings in the 1980s. I think so. Yeah And so it's it's so interesting that then she is a drummer Yeah, not to say that she didn't go home and like put on like glenn cambell or something who glenn cambell's great But would just rock out to something very wholesome. Yeah as opposed She didn't go home and listen to like rat and then like play the drums to it No, no, but you do um rosy o'donnell Shaka con's a great drummer. There was a one about female drummers sort of recently but it It uh, you know john stewart. I was listening to another podcast recently and a lot of times I'll hear that like, um Famous, you know tv hosts or whatever They go home and play the drums. Of course they do. It's a relaxing and honestly Not putting us down at all. I think the barrier of entry is easier on the drums Than it is to pick up a guitar or piano Yeah, and because if you think about it and and I would say it's like drums are the easiest then piano then guitar because like Yeah, you all the time are holding things like this and you all the time are like Hitting different things in your childhood and you're as an adult you're hitting hammers So just that sort of muscle memory is so easy I cannot think of another time in your life where you curve your hand like this and push things down Off-wardly with one hand and then do something completely different with another hand So, you know in that garage exhibit where we're teaching people how to play Uh People have the most success with the drums second most with keyboard because again, we're typing every day, right? We're used to doing this with our fingers But then guitars are hard for people to learn It's frustrating. Oh and on top of that it's your hand isn't used to being like this position It's gonna hurt for the first month Your fingers are gonna be sore and then they're gonna like turn different colors as you're playing more Yeah, I don't know that that garage exhibit you're you're saying sounds like a really cool thing Do you ever get like absolute chaos where again for as a former high school? guitar center employee Sometimes you would want to just go over and just like shake them and be like stop playing right now Um, yeah, sometimes it gets a little wild in there if we have a big group of people Especially a big group of really excited young kids And it we do have like the real deal equipment in there We've got ginsens and fenders and you know, it's not like we have squires. We have you know, like strata casters Yeah, but yeah You know, it's we wanted to make it the real deal We wanted to give kids that that opportunity to experience what what rock and roll is and and that experience to Then have the rest of the museum come come alive because if you beat Drums in the garage and then go look at Keith moon's pictures of lily kid You could imagine what it was like to be Keith moon playing that drum kit Yeah, and you know, I mean that just for me personally from doing this podcast for so long now I see the the world I see things differently where if I look at like Um, I don't know you're obviously the same way everyone listening to this podcast is probably the same way Where if you go to a concert, you're not just listening to the music It's like you could stand before the concert starts and just Examine everything on stage And be just as happy with that like looking at the guys or girls bass rig or even if it's not your instrument You're just like it's gear. It's cool. But I think from doing some history research going to the rock hall Which I absolutely I'm gonna make it Once I mean, I guess have you guys had covid restrictions kind of on that note or how's that worked? Yeah, we still have a mask policy in place. Uh, we're all guests are required to wear a mask Um, we have enhanced cleaning things like that. We we're keeping our capacity lower But this time of year that's not You know, not everyone is You know coming to cleveland in february as you might imagine. So it's one of our No, oh my god here Yeah, yeah, it's been a very safe place to be I'm really grateful because I hear about you know other people that have other jobs that Maybe aren't taking us as seriously. I feel like we have just been consistently at the forefront of covid safety Yeah, I mean in my experience with going to museums here in Cincinnati, um, like I'll take my son who's two and we'll run around Uh union terminal is a big museum here. Which is actually the Find me on social media at drum history and please share Like the building that was designed after and let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future I think most museums it's kind of understood you wear a mask. It's just kind of how it works There's nothing political about it or anything, but um, all right So as we get kind of close to the end here you personally or anything Do you want to share some like where they can find out more about the rock hall? Or if you're playing in any bands or albums anything you have that you want to promote now would be the time Sure, uh, you can find lots of stuff at rockhall.com and even if you are You know in another country and never plan on going to the u.s We have a lot of our exhibits online now, you know that we put online during covid So we have virtual exhibits of the it's been said all along exhibit that I spoke about earlier and some other exhibits Uh, I have to replug our online education platform. It's for teachers parents guardians I mean, I feel like everyone in the world became a teacher in the last two years. Um And it has free resources that span pre kindergarten through college Where you can harness the power of rock and roll to teach anything from English to social studies to music to stem topics Um, and it's got a lot of great content, you know, we have And it's not me teaching about the drums. It's like max Weinberg of the e3 band teaching about the drums So we have a lot of cool Exclusive artist content on there as well. So um, definitely check that out. That's awesome Cool Well, this has been awesome. Um, Mandy has been kind enough uh to hang out for a little extra after and I think Mandy if it's okay with you what I'd like to talk about is maybe like you said max Weinberg and these other guys If you've had more interactions with some of these famous, you know, people coming through and drummers Maybe we could talk about that a little bit and um, just maybe we can discuss a little bit about how you guys create this educational content Um, I think that'd be a a neat little extra topic for for the patreon bonus episode. Um Where if people want to listen to that they can go to drumhistorypodcast.com Patreon link you can click it two bucks a month and more uh, you can sign up Which I'm sure people know about it because I've been talking about it for a long time. But um Yeah, Mandy, thank you so much for being on the show and and like I said before I kind of diverted to the covid stuff I would love to make like a pilgrimage up. Maybe not in february, uh, but And come to the rock call because I have a uh two-year-old who I think would enjoy it I think I'd maybe enjoy it More just going alone and not chasing after a two-year-old but um If I do I'd love to maybe link up with you and I can shoot some video and some photo for the podcast and we can Um do something cool. Absolutely. That would be a blast We can we can tour the museum and just look at all the drum stuff and then we can take your kid up to the garage and Uh, they can beat on some drums and play some ukuleles. We even have like kids sized guitars and things like that It'll it'll be a blast Very cool. All right. So everyone can uh check out rock hall. Um, and again, just wherever you are you can google and get all the information But um, like Mandy said it is rockhall.com and then on social media. It's rock hall Just rock hall as well Rocked hall at rock hall. Yo, it's rock. It's all rock. It's rock hall Cool. Well, Mandy, thank you for being here and thanks again to matt brenden for connecting us and uh, I had a blast talking to you about the rock hall. See you later. See ya You