 I'm bonded to you and what you are that's Nick from Supernatural talking about his on-again-off-again Relationship with Lucifer. I don't know who I am if I'm not you No consequences no pain no sorrow I don't want to feel now what I didn't feel then Nick's experienced a lot of pain in his life Of course, he didn't have to go ahead and become a serial killer did he for those of you who've been following the last few episodes of Skeptico, you know, I've taken this deep dive into evil Now not all listeners have taken that dive with me There's been a lot of Unsubscribing along the way and I get that but I still maintain that this evil thing Might be one of the best lenses we have for coming to grips with our relationship with this Extended consciousness realm and while I haven't until this point offered my personal working Hypothesis on the nature of evil. I might lean on the script writers from Supernatural and use Nick's quote I don't want to feel now What I didn't feel then I mean, maybe that's what this evil thing is about Escaping feelings escaping energy that doesn't fit the way we want it to fit And even if the actions and behaviors that leads us to Seem wicked and evil to everyone else They at least get rid of those feelings for a little while But what about evil that extends beyond our personal domain? What about today's guest John Brisson and his deep and amazingly thorough investigation of the finder's cult a group with undeniable links to the CIA FBI and high-level intelligence organizations in our government and a group whose purpose seemed to be the cultivation of Jeffrey Epstein-esque Sexual blackmailing network that could be used for intelligence gathering What are we to make of this kind of? Institutionalized evil. I don't know but maybe the first step is to take a good long look Here's a clip from my interview with John You know labels are important because of the way people understand it and people are gonna pigeon hole you as a Conspiracy theorist especially when you come out yourself and call yourself that and maybe that's a good thing But I'm just doing my best just to own it because that's what people are gonna call me as whereas as an investigative journalist I guess would be a better way of putting it as far as the finder's case is concerned I am bringing new documents to the table that were not previously seen like Ramon J. Martinez's whistleblower complaint I am interviewing people that have not previously been interviewed before at least information had not been released like you know People pertaining to the finder's case like the prosecuting attorney Willie Megs or or us customs John Sullivan or Ramon J. Martinez his partner Bob Harold and so I am moving this case further than the information that was previously Given to us by other researchers So that is true investigative journalism that is true following the leads and following the information as it goes Stay with us for Skeptico Welcome to Skeptico where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers thinkers and their critics I'm your host Alex Icares. And as you know, I'm always impressed by Independent researchers who managed to make monumental contributions to our understanding of the world without any institutional support with barely any financial support and usually while battling against forces that Seek to keep us locked into Whatever prevailing narrative they want. I mean consider today's guest John Brisson and what he brings to this ongoing Discussion I've been having about the nature of evil So I'll just remind you if you've been following along with me on this little journey You know, I've talked to some very Legitimate experts on the topic highly respected religious professors like Jeff Kreipel Hugh urban top-notch anthropologist like Brian Hayden and Gregory Shushan These are real legitimate academics who are going to conferences publishing papers and are being supported by major Institutions major universities and you know, I've even kicked these ideas around with the likes of Dean Raiden and Rupert Sheldrick But time and time again, I've been disappointed to find that these folks are I don't know They just seem to be unwilling to look at the deep abyss That goes with the data the compelling data that forces us to confront the reality of some Manevalent forces that are in this extended consciousness realm to put it in kind of Skeptico terms so back today today's guest John Brisson who runs a YouTube channel called We've read the documents, which usually features John reading documents Often secret documents that have been released through FOIA requests But John is also the author of an upcoming book on the finder's cult and Organization with not just Provable links to satanic ritual abuse, but unfortunately provable and I'm going to emphasize that word again provable. He's got the documents links to United States intelligence organizations like the CIA and the FBI who were tapping into this evil in Ordered to compromise foreign diplomats and other individuals they wanted to control Through blackmail through sexual blackmail and that's going to be a topic. We're going to talk a great deal about today So, you know John and I were just spending one second talking before this and This is going to be a rough ride for a lot of people. I know a lot of people have already tuned off They saw the title or whatever and they're not going to listen to this. I know in my own personal life I Very few people I can talk to about this people in my family. I can't talk to about this. They shut down They just don't no matter you can pile the data Wide and high it don't matter man. They don't want to go there and That's what I so appreciate about John and his approach his methodology He's very very much into following the data checking his sources But he's also willing to go there John. It's great to have you back on Skeptico Thanks so much for joining me and listening to that long introduction Thank you very much for having me back on Alex. I'm very welcome to come back on Skeptico and discuss this, you know issue and it's of ritual abuse and Government institutions being involved in it and how very actually widespread it is and we do have documentation I know there are many, you know Claims that can be made about these different cases whether it's the Franklin scandal or big Martin preschool or The finders and some are very hard to substantiate and the claims that have been made in these cases But I do believe at the bare minimum with a majority of these cases That children were abused at the bare minimum and at the grand maximum It was ritual abuse by the highest levels of Governments around the world Now John, I know where you're coming from when you say stuff like that, but I almost think that Kind of blurs the message when we start saying the minimum the maximum and all this it's like no What we're talking about here is Unimaginable for most people and what I think you reveal and you've Been a big part of you know Like I say I contacted you a couple months and said hey I want to dig into this satanic ritual abuse thing and I want to know if there's any reality to it and It's funny for me because I've encountered, you know, I did this a couple years ago I have up on the screen like an interview I did with FBI undercover agent Bob Hammer who on his last project Infiltrated Mambla the man boy love association which most of us know from the Craziness that they portrayed it in South Park, but it's a real organization and I've told the story before but now tell it again You know, I remember hearing the passion and emotional Anger in this FBI agent's voice when he said he was recounting being in New York in Manhattan and Going on again. He's undercover with these pedophiles and he's in New York City at Toys R Us And they're leaning over the rail talking about the violence that they and sex acts But also connected with violence that they want to Perpetrate on these kids that they see playing. These are our kids. You got kids I got kids my kids are a little bit older now, but you know, these are five-year-old kids and The horrible things that these guys want to do and at the time You know, the reason I did that interview was because it was about evil It was about people who want to deny that evil even exists, you know And here the people are denying that this stuff exists But here's the point when I came back to you two months ago I said John, I still can't really get my head around this. Is this really happening is Satanic ritual abuse Against children really something that's happening because when you Google it the first frickin Hundred entries are about satanic panic. Yes, they are and then tell folks a little bit about a book that you've referenced Called the witch hunt narrative. I have it right here in my hand. It was written by Rossi Chet Who is a professor of Brown University and the reason I'm the Ivy League professor The reason why I wanted to frame it like I do in that is because it's so hard for people to realize how evil and how deep this goes that They'll label it as a witch hunt which completely negates the victims of all these cases That were abused and made it seem like they were not abused at all So that's why I usually frame it, you know, he frames it from this to this book is not conspiratorial at all in the slightest bit It does not really tackle The ritual sexual abuse out of things of how dark things and how evil things can get this book is factually based That the children in majority of these cases whether it's Glendale Monastery School Which is one of the cases that I'm investigating in I've gotten the Stewart, Florida Police Department records and in the court Records about James Tower than how they label his cases to satanic panic But it is obvious from when you read, you know, the police report the court documents that James Tower He was you know, he's he was right in his conviction as well as I was even uphold by Psychiatrists later who said that Tower was likely to offend if he was to be released from prison No, no, hold on because there's We're gonna dump so much information on people and I Have picked through your stuff and again I have to alert people because we're just gonna tap we're gonna dip into this Yes, and if they go look go to your channel and they listen to some of the interviews that you've done and You're writing a book on the finders cult which we're gonna talk about in a minute Which plays into this as well, but I kind of wanted to alert people to the kind of interviews that you do John because like you did one of you did an interview with an investigator Yes from this Glendale Monastery case Henry Clements So this is someone who was boots on the ground called in by law enforcement to investigate this Montessori school and he finds evidence of Satanic ritual abuse so he finds doors that can only be locked from the outside and the lock is like eight feet up So that the kids can't reach it or six feet up I should say he finds chloroform He finds all this stuff that the investigators kind of suspected but didn't find and he finds it They're relying on him and he had a kid that went there and it's like Verified and then when you're referencing back to this book by this Brown University professor One of the one of the cases that everyone's heard about is mcmartin preschool Even my wife who's a forensic psychologist. She's bashing me. She goes. Yeah, like that fake mcmartin preschool satanic panic thing And I'm like I go go to anyone can do this go to Amazon and look inside You know like you can don't even have to buy the book. He has it documented there Yes positions the physicians that that did medical exams on the mcmartin kids and said there's physical Evidence that we normally associate with sexual activity for a three and a half year old and it's not the parents Because the kid is saying it was my teacher So this whole satanic panic thing is an orchestrated lie to pull our attention away from what's going on I mean, you know look at Oliver Stone's directed Movie about mcmartin preschool with James Woods. It's all by design You know they frame mcmartin as the most expensive trial that never led to a single conviction You know, therefore Rabin Bucky is innocent and he you know never did anything wrong And when you read the witch hunt narrative Rossi Chet Again, it's not going to discuss the actual satanic ritual abuse that I believe that went on in mcmartin It's not going to discuss that per se but it's going to discuss the actual forensic evidence that children were molested by Raymond Bucky There's enough medical evidence in here to show that that Judy Johnson was not some crackpot alcoholic mother Who just you know started this whole theory to slander the mcmartin preschool That she was driven to alcoholism by people attacking her and slanding her character Which she later later died from the evidence in here directly Judy Johnson's son Was sodomized by Raymond Bucky This is a kid who if I remember right is three and a half years old And comes home and can't even verbalize it in sexual terms But is kind of describing these things that are going on at the school and the mom Totally flips But like we're saying the first thing she does is what a parent would do Take him Yes, the pediatrician and their pediatrician says yeah, this kid's been sexually molested But it was even more than that. He she took him to dr. Scott McGarry who was like, you know kind of like a Like the child's you know doctor and he said well Yeah, this is really bad because he's you know bleeding from the anus. You need to take him to UCLA So they take him to the mary and davis children's clinic at UCLA And you know both dr. Linda gordon and dr. Jean h. Simpson Savory who are both, you know, pediatricians, you know, savory, you know graduated from john hopkins had five years of experience in pediatrics They come to inclusion that was fairly significant findings of sexual abuse And even later a doctor that was hired by the defense came to the same conclusion too as well That matthew johnson was severely anally molested. So it's all there But yet, you know, according to you know, nathan and shydecker's book about it all being a witch hunt You know, it was a young intern that examined matthew johnson. No, it wasn't these are esteemed doctors I mean, it wasn't just some intern that examined him, you know, it's not even that there were esteemed doctors They're just doctors doing their job. Yeah Yeah So it's like a parent taking a kid in and saying what's wrong with my kid and doctor's going, oh shit You know, that's i've seen this before this isn't good and and then it leads to police investigation The police get in they say, oh, we've seen this shit before this isn't good So again pulling back, you know, because you're into documentation and proof But we always have to pull back to the controlled narrative. Why is the narrative? So strongly strongly On this crazy idea that this is all panic. This is not real when it's so easily Or relatively easily if you can get past to your programming the Obviously provable by these documents and that's what I went. So let me shift gears for a minute No one Most of the people listening to this show unless they followed your work, which is fantastic Know anything about the finder's cult and this is going to blow people away But it's also going to catapult us right in the middle of events that are unfolding today in terms of The term that you use called the pedocracy, but tell us back up take a big breath Tell us how you even got interested in Looking at the finder's cult because let me pause again Because I wanted to mention this You know john you've been on skeptico before for fix your gut, which is a book that you wrote And that's how I originally found you because I had had Medical problems that led me to you. I found your research which you did kind of driven by a personal tragedy that you had to experience in your family with Kind of mainstream medicine that led you to look for some kind of alternative routes Totally on top of the information. I found your research to be incredibly useful supported by the real research that's out there and You know, I really enjoyed you coming on people can find that I even referred you to my daughter and you kind of helped her so I know the kind of work you've done and people might know you from The fix your gut book that you wrote and the the work and interviews that you've done on that Can you tell us how that even led or what was behind this New kind of investigation you've been doing into this Evil that is these crimes against children. It's actually not new I just had come out with doing the youtube channel And doing interviews out in the public about my knowledge of conspiracies YouTube channel started about eight months ago of me actually being public and me actually doing something with the knowledge that I had But my father was a conspiracy theorist. I grew up, you know, just you know, I was I was an eoconservative at the time I had my grandfather's political beliefs and I thought my father was a little bit Crazy and a lot of things that he believed in god I wish I could tell him now if he was still living of how right he was about the world But so I I mean I I knew you know JFK assassination was it was a government plot But I still I couldn't wrap my head around it I didn't believe you know what my father was telling me or not to trust what happened at 9 11 and stuff like that and everything so I'd always had that basis And uh, I listened to alex jones about 2008 One night I was listening to coast to coast am very late and he started breaking down of how 9 11 wasn't inside john And so from there I started, you know looking into researching conspiracies and around that time two alex jones had joe wallach on you know who um Talks a lot about natural health And so that got me into natural health. So it was around the same time that I started doing both Um or researching both and I've been a researcher for both ever since now as far as you know fix your gut Yeah, I started that you know actually making you know a business and helping people and coaching and writing books And stuff like that long before I've done anything with conspiracy Just because I felt compelled to do so my own self being ill me, you know Losing both my parents when I was young to illness and you know losing a son Trying to help him with the condition that he had you know and everything and so I was you know very compelled to do that But then eventually I was like well I might as well Release the conspiracy research I'm doing too as well So I just started coming out with that. I mean some of my first interviews Some yeah, they were fixed your gut related but some of them were also conspiracy going back to 2016 So it's always been both. It's just now that I'm actually putting my research out there Is really the only difference What I see in your research is again an independent researcher who's just Following the data and trying to get the bottom of things and I hate when we You know labels are important because of the way people understand it and people are going to pigeon hole you as a conspiracy theorist Especially when you come out yourself and call yourself that and maybe that's a good thing But I'm just doing my best just to own it because that's what people are going to call me as whereas As an investigative journalist, I guess would be a better way of putting it as far as the finest case is concerned I am bringing new documents to the table that were not previously seen like Ramon j martinez's whistleblower complaint I am interviewing people that have not previously been interviewed before at least information had not been released like You know people pertaining to the finder's case like the prosecuting attorney willy mags or or us customs john sullivan or Ramon j martinez's partner bob herald And so I am moving this case further than the information that was previously Given to us by other researchers So that is true investigative journalism. That is true following the leads and following the information as it goes Now you've just kind of done a brain dump on people there that's going to Force them to jump right in the middle of this. So let's go back and talk about like For someone who's totally uninitiated Do government intelligence organizations like the cia massade fbi Do they ever use blackmail and can we prove that? Yes, we can prove that There's many cases that involve the idea of brownstone operations or sexual blackmail So we have the franklin scandal which has implicated at the highest levels of government of them being blackmail george h.w. Bush ronald wilson ragan bill casey Of of them being around the nexus of laurence e king that's been reported both in john de camp Former de braska state senator's book the franklin scandal nick bryance the franklin cover-up him being investigated reporter and henry vencent Confessions of a dc madham who was around the nexus of laurence e king and craig spence So in that case it's very well documented for those who look into it jeffrey eppstein Was just they've been using this template forever Why why would our cia why would our fbi? Why would they blackmail people? That's not in the constitution? They're not supposed to do that Why would they blackmail people let alone sexual blackmail cia is not supposed to operate in american soil, but they still do When people look into it if they're halfway Open to just understanding how power works blackmail is your go-to tool in any respect because if you pay somebody To do something Then your only go as far as that money goes and if somebody pays them more or if they have enough money They don't have to do it anymore exactly particularly sexual blackmail of this kind is just a much more effective tool It's almost it's almost an irresistible tool to because when we're going to talk about the finders and And what they did and the extent to which they got involved with this horrible evil people are going to Recoil and go no we wouldn't have done that and it's like the temptation is super great here to do sexual blackmail, right? I mean obviously I mean with the sexual blackmail comes power you can get people to vote from whatever You want them to you can use it as a form of initiation that they are willing to do so that they are willing to do other things I mean there's many different reasons why this blackmail would take place by these intelligence agencies by the highest levels of government by the world order It's also a good tool like i mentioned earlier to weed out Okay, so this person is willing to do this for example, let's say it's as simple as having an affair with Another you know if they're married having an affair well, then are they also willing to be you know have sex with underage children It's to test how far someone can go and what you can you know hold against them and use against them It's all of that's like a nexus of total control over someone Where it's not constantly having to buy someone off once you have the blackmail once you can threaten to use it forever So you kind of mixed a couple of different ideas there and and we can't pull all this apart because you're not a law enforcement Professional and we can't know for sure what's going on. Tell us what you do Know so back up for a minute. What is the finder's cult? How did you first come across it and then how does it Tie into intelligence organization involvement involvement The finder's cult is a cult that was headdened by maryon d petty Who has many many connections to intelligence organizations? He ran apartment buildings for oss members office issues of services during world war two Where he would give them, you know rooms some people say to gain intelligence Some people say it was the beginning of a brownstone operation Brownstone operation. What's a brownstone operation pretty much blackmail Detective jim rofstein has talked about and links about brownstone operations Brownstone operations is a way that you bring someone to a certain area where You know, there's filming equipment or you can get some sort of evidence or documentated evidence camera Something so you're bringing them to a room. There's hidden cameras hidden microphones. They don't know that They're being recorded They're doing some act that they don't want to get out A few years ago. It used to be homosexuality now. Nobody cares about that or it used to be infidelity Yes, no one cares about that. So it ups the ante, but people still do care about that. Whatever you can get them to do Whatever their weakness is whether it's just doing cocaine, you know, or smoking weed or something like that Anything that could compromise them. You're going to record it and then you're going to start in on this Blackmail thing. That's a brownstone Operation, right? Yes. Yes. So even back then, you know, taking pictures of you entering the hostel with a prostitute, for example So, yeah, I mean any any evidence that they can give where it's it's to set up to Blackmail you that is a brownstone operation. For example, there have been instances of craig b. Spence throwing parties at his house Where his party was wired his house was wired up with two-way mirrors and recording devices And famous people would go to his parties and there would be, you know, children provided there by laurence king For them to sexual blackmail and even practice ritual satanic abuse at those parties the same could be said about Hold on because that's gonna that's gonna throw people and and what we understand now is that kind of what you alluded to before It kind of becomes somewhat of a Slippery evil slope in that, you know, if you caught me doing cocaine with a prostitute Then i'm in your club and you're inviting me to your party. I may not approve of People molesting five-year-old and four-year-old kids, but i'm at the party with other people, you know Strange bedfellows kind of thing who are I may not be into satanic ritual abuse But I am now at a party where there's other people who are trying to tap into these Manevalent forces and we'll talk about that for a reason and that's their thing. So it's almost like this kind of crazy brownstone blackmail thing Creates this kind of cesspool that doesn't necessarily have to have a a full on You know purpose for joining all these different people together They just kind of congregate by the force of the brownstone blackmail operation Yes, and of course everybody who's gone to this these parties may have not participated in you know the darkest Things that occur like ritual satanic abuse or or child abuse at these parties. Some of it can be compartmentalized I agree with you on that Now now to separate that separate the weed from the chaff as they say that could be very difficult I mean you usually have to look at someone's position within the world order how much power they have You know, I seriously doubt, you know, bill clinton didn't do anything wrong on the lily to express for example And or you know, donald trump, you know, hanging around with epstein too as well Going to his house frequently and everything like that and you know Dershowitz just because he's an attorney and yeah, I mean I I agree and I think this is like another important point and the point I would Make is burden of proof at what point does the burden of proof shift to These people need to prove to us That they weren't involved if you were in the franklin scandal party with king and we know that he was Trafficking children sexually abusing children Doing child pornography and all these other crazy stuff than the burden of proof I think shifts shifts to you you were at the party you should have known or Probably knew that these things were going on Proof to us that it's not true and in the news recently we have prince andrew he cannot prove that so now he looks He looks really bad because he can't establish We we all accept this idea of burden burden of proof and the burden of proof has now shifted So I'm sorry go ahead. No, I was I was going to say I mean you're a hundred percent right Of course with prince andrew he claims the picture that he took with virginia robert scufri It was a a doctorate picture would obviously that is her and him with you know Just zane maxwell standing behind them, you know, it's obviously not a photoshop picture But that's what he's claiming, you know, so he can't just like morancy king and and other people ask Well, if these if this is true, then why aren't these cases prosecuted to a full extent of the law? Why are these people in jail? Well, I mean if you believe in a world order type structure or however you want to put it that you know The government's going to protect its own self-interest when they're running these operations That's not going to happen morancy king did not go to jail for You know running a massive sexual blackbell ring and molesting children and everything like that He went to jail for embezzlement of the bezeling funds from the uh, frankly community credit union Worse yet his co-conspirators in Lincoln, Nebraska And we have to keep backing up and I don't know how this is going to work or you know Again, people are just going to tune out or they've already heard all this stuff And they think we're not going to cover anything new and we are going to cover something new But the franklin scandal is kind of well documented, but what I was going to point out the real tragedy I think that people find in this is that When it came to prosecutions They actually prosecuted the victims Yes, it got them convicted For perjury Which when we look at it through the lens of now knowing that clearly those people were guilty clearly I mean when they first rated king who was set up to run this boney bologna Uh savings in loan and was running it I was running it into the ground and was embezzling all this money But they go grab his computer and they find all sorts of child porn on the computer So again, it's physical evidence that this stuff is going on And he's taking the kids and the kids say yeah, they took me to bohemian grove And I was sold out and all this stuff. But then these kids These kids are actually prosecuted for because they're they're now testifying against some very very powerful people in the Lincoln, Nebraska Uh connected elite And they get the whole thing reversed and get these guys convicted of perjury, which is just an absurd You know injustice and the other thing I want to mention You keep throwing world order and you've kind of said that a couple times I don't want to say that I don't want to go there because that's a whole other discussion I think we we can if we ever do get back to the finders cult, which we keep trying to get back to There's there's many different ways to understand it and one clear way of understanding it is that What we talked about in terms of brown stoning a brownstone operation and and blackmail and that this would be in just an Irresistible tool For intelligence organizations to use they can say well We could send a dozen agents out in the field and we could try and you know get on the inside and penetrate this group Or we could just film this one guy Doing these horrible deeds to an eight-year-old girl and then he'll give us the whole thing So which should we do a three-year undercover operation that's going to cost all this money and may expose us to all these Blowback or do we just do this one little trick over here? But in in in doing that trick we have to partner with the most evil people in the world who you know groom and traffic Little kids for sex and some Intelligent guy says yeah, but you know really when you look at it from a cost benefit analysis, maybe we should do that I mean, that's what the finders cult is about or or maybe we should run guns or run drugs With the rancont rancont or involves all three of them gun-running Child pornography and running through the franklin scandal Um and and in in drug running gun running so involves all of that So all the I guess I could say is yeah, we're taking a long time to get to the finders But however, it's important because we have to lay the groundwork that this isn't just one specific instance that this occurred It's occurred in multiple multiple instances I know epsin is you know on everybody's minds now because that's the most recent one, but there I mean they're the the polymer the polymer affair and in the 1960s and and and you know franklin and mc martin and And and I mean it it's not just one isolated event and they're using all of this And and my guess is prosecutions never happen or at least to the degree that they should have even in the daycare scandals Is to limit it all See, I mean, they're still they're limiting witch hunt They're saying witch hunts today when it comes to trump and Him being innocent and haven't not to do anything You'll see the vernac and it's interesting because you'll have people like michael savage Who'll compare the the russian russian witch hunt to trump to mc martin and say well mc martin's a witch hunt And so you know very you know, this is you know, the russian scandals are witch hunts So you'll see that a lot of it's still being used in vernacular today and still being pushed By people that you think should be intelligent I mean michael savage wrote a book on famous witch hunts and in his book For mc martin. He does not you know read this take the time or do anything He lists as his source a list verse article on mc martin I mean it's it's they Does they made this by design in my opinion? So that they could continue to get on with their brownstone operations because no one thinks twice about sending their children to daycares Anymore no one thinks twice because if you think about it. Ah, it's just it's just satanic panic. What are you doing? Why are you concerned about sending your kid off? And i'm pretty sure abuses are still occurring We just don't hear about them anymore because reporters aren't going to report it because of what happened with all the daycare scandals in the 1980s and 1990s so So let's take one more stab at going back to finders because We've kind of talked around about it and I kind of sent us maybe in a different direction. So the finders cult What what is it? Why is it a cult per se? And then what is the connection to What we're talking about these brownstone operations It's a cult because mary and petty was the leader of A group of people that would enter and exit out of the finders and when they enter to the finders They would give up their monetary possessions They would give up their real estate Which you would normally see with cults Of how the leader would get everything and they put everything into what it was called an invisible bank Where they you know petty would say well if you left you'd get your stuff back Well, fighters members would later sue that would leave the cult that would not get you know What they put back into the visible bank back Now I would actually argue a cult and I've kind of changed it in the book. I'm writing I have references as a cult to make it more palatable to people But I do actually think it's more should be more classified as the finders operation Because that seems like what it is with you know, mary and petty's ties initially to the office of strategic services him Being part of the air force and and later the information that we have from the investigative gated leaves membo Being trained in espionage at the jesuit college georgetown university Take us through a timeline With petty petty joined the air force and he was a chauffeur To many famous people at the time he chauffeured harry s truman Dwight d. Eisenhower Hap hap artled who was head of the air force was was one heads of air force at the time So he chauffeured many many high up elite people Around the time of world war two and afterwards and he was also owning These apartment buildings in washington dc that he was renting to officers strategic services members So he's had connections to the government the highest levels of government even back then now He claims that he got the money to start the finders and to buy property in virginia By winning poker games over time and just saved up his money to buy land where the investigated leads membo That was leaked and we still don't know who the author of that is Has made references to that it was him knowing people within intelligence Was how he got that money because he had high level connections It wasn't that he was to buy all these hundreds of acres of land It wasn't from him winning poker games while he was in the military Right and and that would be consistent with kind of what we're seeing with the latest breaking Kind of inside story of the epstein thing and maybe you want to talk about that is For most people that even begin to understand epstein, they weren't even awake To any of it until the phony hanging and then even just the average citizen goes Come on. That's just ridiculous the suicide thing. It doesn't fit Well, the kind of next level research that people are doing says really if you look at it Epstein looks a lot more like a frontman fall guy thing. Yes. Yes, and one of the telltale signs of that is The stuff is in his name No one puts their name on stuff when they're doing those kind of Deeds and I think the same is true in what you're talking about Whenever we see somebody I own the land. I own the apartments And I'm doing I'm part of this brownstone operation Then it's like well, you're probably just a frontman because no one who's really doing that stuff would be Having their name on the line What do you think about that and and maybe fill people in on the epstein thing that I might be leaving out No, I mean, I 100% agree with you if according to epstein, I think he was lower On the rung when it comes to it's a like laurence king. I think you know that they were people craig b. Spence was higher than laurence king There were people higher up within these organizations and laurence king was the fall man jeffrey epstein was the fall man So jeffrey epstein guilty though guilty fall man. Of course. Oh, of course. I'm not I'm just I'm not no I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying those people go down the higher up people keep their hands clean And and so because of that, you know, I would say people that are higher up than jeffrey epstein would be Gizlain Maxwell Less lex lexner A billionaire that who gave jeffrey epstein His new york city mansion for one dollar and supposedly that mansion was wired up for the brownstone operation That was like three or four million dollars worth of Property record and audio just no what I heard is three or four million dollars audio video recording equipment in a secret room underneath a stairway to Kind of manage and control it and upload it and all the rest of that. So again Finders finders cult the same parallels, right? This guy is setting up these Apartments, if you will and we don't have the full story like we do on epstein yet No, but probably the same probably the same operation. I think you're right isn't that calling it a cult it's an operation from the very beginning because That's good business to run these these rings of blackmail yeah, so I mean Mary and petty buys all that land from charles marsh And I believe that he wasn't just from from getting playing poker It was because his connections gave him the money to be able to set up this free state Because that was maria petty's main one of his main operations separate from You know the filming of child pornography or separate from The darkness was that he co-opted a lot of the human potential movement Um, and it seemed like that he was the cia's man to do so And to kind of control it and to steer it from what I've seen I mean, he also had connection two connections that we know of to timothy leary And that he was dealing with a walt a shydecker who was timothy leary and billy hitchcock So time and time again you see that petty can't just be lucky to have all these connections To all of these famous people and for him to be no one He couldn't show for a round Dwight d. Eisenhower Patton Blinden baines johnson Charles Edward marsh and he couldn't know all these people throughout his whole life and just be Like you and I it's just the odds of that are just very small Okay, so Yeah, I'm there's a lot of kind of cult elements there that ring bells with other cults we've seen Again, I'm worried that we're not stitching together the story in a way that people are going to be able to follow it Okay, so we have petty He's chauffeuring around all these super high level presidents and the highest level in the military And as we know chauffeur doesn't just mean you're a good driver It also means you're a confidant because you see things that other people aren't supposed to see and you're trusted to keep secrets that Others might and these people are talking to him too You know that's mentioned to you know in interviews that they are they're having discussions with them telling him private information Do as well heads of states telling him private information So let's skip ahead in the story to where this finders group and petty first encounter law enforcement and I like the Tallahassee police encounter because it seems like a pretty clean Clean slate investigation of when these people are run into law enforcement or maybe there's something before that Yes, the only thing that we have about the previous raids is a little bit of the documents that were released in the fbi fault From the metropolitan police department investigation that was once labeled secret But it's not anymore because time has passed on it on the big picture. There's a raid. What do they find in this warehouse? Okay, but when we go to the metropolitan police department to set everything up for that raid, okay So in that raid they were they were you know Telling it says so starts the whole choreography Investigation and that they were raiding the finders warehouse and interviewing members of the finders That they were shooting pornography at the warehouse. Why did they suspect that? Why would the police go and just randomly Raid some warehouse Because we were because according to all we have is toby torell's instance and then is booked the game caller The only thing I could piece together from that was was they were having women that were entering the warehouse That were I mean, it's like a warehouse like you know surrounded by other warehouses. They were having beautiful women Entering the warehouse. So they thought pornography was being shot there and when they went there and raided the place They found the camera in the staging area that would later be Implicated by ramon j martinez that they were shooting pornography there as well to child pornography Right. So that makes sense. They're just some local Washington dc cop. They're doing their investigation either in prostitution or whatever And they go, hey, this looks strange and they follow their suspicion and they raid the place Now take us to the martinez thing because who is he and what is he Tasked to do and how does he tie into this? Well, I guess maybe I should start with talahassee as far as doing the timeline So later in 1987 which first started this whole modern idea of what we know about the finder's case alex is that Two men were arrested douglas edward ammerman and james michael hollowell were arrested on february 4th 1987 when a concerned citizen called in And and said they noticed many Disheveled dirty children that were behaving like wild animals in myers park in talahassee florida And so the cops get there two cops tony mashburn and judy Shioke they both You know arrive at the scene they witnessed the children they witnessed, you know the two adults this they witnessed the van that was there The blue sportsman band that the children and the adults were living out of and they what do the adults look like? They're wearing suits So the kids are disheveled and dirty and the adults are wearing suits in talahassee florida So they start noticing something's off. So they start interviewing hollowell and ammerman so You know the men mentioned that they were taking the kids to a special school in mexico Did not identify that they had any relation to the kids whatsoever Police officers are automatically suspicious like what what is this? I mean anybody would You know, so they moved to arrest Ammerman and hollowell and take the children into custody And when they do hollowell refuses to talk and he faints and planks on the ground And there's actually video and derrick rose is trying that he's another best gear trying to hunt down this video Of them, you know Lifting hollowell as he's planked on the ground And putting him into the cop car and that was filmed and that used to be you know broadcast everywhere during the finder's case But hollowell also had two forms of Miranda rights with him when he was arrested one State seeing that he had something to hide and another stating that he had nothing to hide So Why all of this, you know, okay, so these guys these guys are arrested Well, talahassee police. They're honest. They're like this is Bizarre. So what happens next? There are both a child with they were both charged with child abuse and they were given a hundred thousand dollar bonds each and So from there the the talahassee police department starts their investigation They start looking at the contents in the van in the contents of the van you get a trs 80 computer Which was very sophisticated at the time that the finders were using to connect to telephone lines to communicate back to dc Like bbs message boards and messages that they they privately had at that time that they were using in communication They also found a chinese english dictionary, which will get to you know The finders had many connections supposedly to china and possibly through talaxes that there were Selling of children to china that the finders were facilitating Supposedly that remone j martinez had found during his investigation Of both the apartment building in the warehouse later in washington And they also found pictures within the van and some of those pictures were of naked children Now the finders would argue that those pictures were just adults taking pictures of their kids They did that that that let's not let's not muddy the water with bullshit completely flat earth bullshit kind of Explanations they found child pornography their cops. They see it. They're on this case now, right? I mean they are on this thing, right? So they're trying they're trying to track down the parents of the kids Is what the talahassee police department is trying to do So when they take the kids into the police station They start noticing that the children don't understand like modern objects Like clocks type riders They start, you know, a few of them start urinating on the floor And so they have very off behavior and they talk about giving getting food as a reward And that they they follow a merry very strictly vegan diet And and so they start, you know interviewing the children jordan orico who was labeled as mary At the time she every time they ask her about sexual abuse She becomes very fidgety and doesn't really want to answer those questions How old are the children they range anywhere between six to three? And how many of them are there? Six, okay so There the very interesting thing about this is is when I when I interviewed former talahassee police department officer rick hoffman So I had always thought that through the fbi that they would you know, the mothers would have came down They would have checked the birth certificates or shown some proof Other than the children actually, you know responding to the parents like this is my mother This is my father or you know, but but there's the mothers that went down But you understand what i'm saying So I thought there would have been more proof of trying to back that up from what i'm ascertaining when i'm finding out that was not I I need to find out Okay, but john back up for a minute here because okay, so these are cops. They're just doing what at this point They're they know there's something on they just want to find the case So what do they do next? How do they contact? these kids who are like just feral animals How do they contact their parents? What do they do? Who are their parents? They're trying to track down leads or getting many calls From family members of the finders like they got a call from um Yeah, but I mean do they do they call in the media and say hey here are these kids? Yes, they call They call in the media. They're saying, you know here are these kids It's very well reported even throughout the Associated Press it's reported throughout the united states Are trying to find the identities of these children of who their parents are if they are parents of members within the cult Um, they don't know there's a cult at this point, right? I mean they have some idea around that time Yes, right, but I mean they're just the before we can say cult I mean they just say who are the parents of these kids because yes one we want to reunite the kids with their parents but number two Want to investigate what's going on? So how do they then connect these? Kids with quote-unquote their parents Well, eventually the parents after a week step up and contact the tallahassee police department that they want to come From tallahassee that they were in california and they waited because everybody was blowing it out of proportion That, you know, this was satanic ritual abuse and there were satanic elements and they were a fear for their life So they waited a week to go down to tallahassee to meet with the tallahassee police department for them to You know try to get custody of their children How many parents are there? 12 they're all within the finders Okay, so there's 12 parents when you say they're all in the finders will later find out that they're associated with The finders operation or finders cult but at this point they're just Adults who are living in california. What else do we know? Well, the girl they weren't living in california. The women were there for working They called it weaning the children away from their mothers So they were there at working in california, but their bases were still in the apartments And in washington dc area and we're still in the warehouse But yes during the investigation the tallahassee police department figures out That these were their parents these were members of the finders that they were a cult That's what they were labeled as such now Some people have disagreements in there when i've talked to riff rick huffman and just like you know He mentioned in the the paper and everything like that There's two ways of framing the finders that happen like it happens with all this Oh, they're just progressive the progressive with how they raised the children how the children were pretty much wild and And previously beforehand that we learned that they're you know Two children had left the warehouse area and had been picked up by the police And and had stayed a certain amount of time in foster care before this event had even happened So they kind of look at them and well, they're just progressives and that's how they raise their kids and there's And that's okay and anybody who tried to fight for the kids like prosecuting attorney willy mags they just labeled him as a christian as a nut He's just a nut. He's just a zealot with a with a with a chip on his shoulders You know trying to keep the children away from their parents and the finders and everything like that They they label him as such again. It's the whole witch hunt narrative They label you know the people who are trying to get down to the bottom of things and trying to protect the children as christians And having christian proclivities and the people that say the finders didn't do anything. They were more progressive Well, there's you know, we'll get into that. Uh, there's a lot of Deep waters there that we have to kind of tread as well But i'm trying to put it together as in maybe a different way, which is you know, you got to tell the stories So we're just two guys having a conversation. You're not changing the world or anything like that. I'm trying to understand this I do think the false narratives and repeating the false narratives and the obviously false narratives I don't think that helps the story. I don't think Any reasonable person would see this as fitting into anything close to Progressive child rearing, especially when now our eyes have gone more open to the grooming of children and the involvement of children in sex crimes and it fits so exactly Into that model that I just don't think we need to spend a lot of time with those alternative Narratives even if they did entertain people back in 1987 Who cares as we look back on it. It's clearly these kids were being but not everybody's looking at it that way though They're labeling it such that's why I'm bringing that to the table That No, it's it's flat earth stuff. It's it's flat earth stuff You know and when I say flat earth stuff, it's like it just We've seen this over and over again in all these different fields, you know Is even in the more mundane stuff that I've done and you know my show, you know on near-death experience You can sit and argue and debate with people and I still sometimes engage in it on these crazy, you know last gasp of a dying brain You know some stuff that just doesn't add up and you know, you have Mountains and mountains of scientific papers that refute that over and over again And and this is a tactic, you know, we have to but the thing is is with this we don't have I mean We don't there's so much pushback on it that you have to show why the other side is wrong Just like when we talk about the execution of Henrietta and Igor that the children have participated in and how I believe that to be a satanic ritual The the finders and everything that was reported about it at the time You know, I mean later on at first they they presented it as such as being a satanic ritual these children participated in but later was changed It was now looked upon in because you gotta remember the way you and I look at things Are more with our eyes open is different than the general public So when you know when most of the general public look at it They're going to go with the idea that's being pushed to them that it was just animal husbandry Because that's what the finders are trying us in the media later on try to say it was that the experience was just them Teaching, you know, if you were a butcher and you're raising your kids in the art of butchery Then you would show them how to butcher a goat and you would give a three-year-old child The goat's head to hold on a civil platter and a picture and you know rip out the womb and you know You know pull the fetuses out and you know They label that as such so you have to show why that is ludicrous And then a fact that that that's what i'm trying to do See this is a this is an interesting discussion And it's one that we should have because only people like you and I can have this kind of discussion This level three discussion See, I don't think you do I don't think you can get there from here So what you're describing is again this And you kind of hinted at uh, maybe people can pick up the thread of that story is there is this Ritualistic slaughter of this goat that clearly for anyone who's looked into it Is a culted satanic, you know with all the symbolism and stuff like that And their explanation of it was as you said just this absurd idea of animal husbandry And why you would show a three-year-old and have them have a photo with the goats head on the thing Yeah, but my point is can't get there from here But some people do but some people do wake up though. I woke up It does happen and we can't socialize things either like, you know The Q and on people saying that there's, you know, huge adrenochrome farms where, you know We're trying to objectively follow the facts of where they lead to You know, and so that's why I'm trying to present that, you know, it's just to present their argument as false. I have to show Why it is false and some people will read this Who previously did not believe in ritual satanic abuse or did not believe that the government is involved in such things Some people will come to the conclusion that it is a real thing. That's why it's important I mean, I even saw it with Henry Clements when I asked him claims that were written about him in books Of statements that he made and he said I never made that statement and him, you know I mean interviewing multiple multiple times and thus having conversations throughout many months and him never changing his story And him never adding things or embellishing things or anything like that You as an author I have to you know Show what the evidence shows and not take things out of context not put words in people's mouths So I have you know, I think it's important for me to do these things because there will be some people who will Not everyone you're right. You can't you can't get everyone to look at it Some people don't want to stare into the this and realize how evil this is Want to see that it goes to the top levels of government They want to live with their head buried in the sand because they can't just face that cruel harsh True reality of life in the world that we live in But still for some that still hold on to the objectivity you have to show them Of why these narratives are wrong because if if if we go with every if I just start out with You know everything that deals with satanic ritual abuse in all of these cases If I just start out with that it's going to immediately turn a whole bunch of people off That will not recognize the true deaths of this and there are people that do change their minds You changed your mind. Did you not when you started looking into the evidence? Yeah, I mean But I was already predisposed to I mean, I think you go through these layers It's like layers of an onion, you know I have a good personal friend who did not believe it who worked for cps until he read the franklin scandal And knew the reports that were given by the cps officials in the franklin scandal that that was what changed him He went from not believing it to believing it afterwards and doing research on his own it happens I agree with you and I think you make an excellent point. I love how you just laid all that out Again in this kind of inside baseball discussion, which is interesting. So i'm going to pursue it a little bit further The flip side of that that I was trying to tap into is that The bunny trail stuff can get really frustrating too, you know, so spending an in an inordinate amount of time on The just the ludicrous eor story to me. I just have been down that path a million times. It's flat earth kind of stuff. It's like Obviously, that's a manufactured story. I'm glad that you got the story out there I just don't you know, it's like the false Equivalency argument the skeptical argument like there has to be a balance We have to give equal time to these other things and you're not saying that I'm not giving them equal time. I'm saying this is what they say. This is why it's wrong Fine, so so i'm just super sensitive to that and and because I want to get to Not one narrative like this is the answer kind of narrative But I want to kind of string this stuff together in a way that's going to get us more quickly to Understanding this stuff from the big picture standpoint. So the fact that there's this so here's where we're at. I mean back to our story We got this finder's operation That is also a cult so it's pushing all the buttons that we know to be The cult buttons and getting people mind controls and getting them to give up their Common sense and their their morals their sense of self their sense of self all this stuff in exchange for These other things and in this case it's mixed in with this sexual abuse of children and all the rest of that But so back to the to the story. I want to follow the Chronology if we can so we can imagine at this point that the Tallahassee police They may be acting like hey, we're just trying to you know Reunite these kids, but you've got to believe that deep down and again folks John brison has talked to got picked up the phone picked up the skype and talked to People from the Tallahassee police department that remember this case. This is a real researcher Investigator who has unique information to bring to this. It's just kind of remarkable, you know back to the beginning I gotta go back to the very beginning intro Who the hell's doing this? You know, I talked to all these like I said all these academics I talked to that want to dismiss this or not want find find a reason not to believe it Please call up the Tallahassee police like John did Please call up the Tallahassee police investigators who worked on the case talk to them So back to the Tallahassee police. I know a little bit about how police investigations work these guys Know these people are guilty and they want the parents to come in because they want to get their testimony. Well, Some of them do But some of them don't Good point. Good point. So and then so they bring in okay So they they take the children to be examined by a doctor to see if any if any sexual molestation Had taken place and I'm still trying I'm still trying to track down those reports or trying to track down anybody that can verify outside of the Tallahassee police department documents on those And so they bring in dr. Diamond greenberg. Well, dr. Diamond greenberg was for the defense of the mc martin trial And he was one to lead You know experts for the defense to cast shade on key mc farland Who key mc farland was you know, the therapist who was interviewing the children the main therapist who was interviewing the children for the mc martin case Hey, quick quick. Let me interject a quick question. I have no idea Why did they bring him in that sounds very suspicious that he was the guy who was brought in Because there's a man named gray coaler who worked for the nhs in florida who used to live in chicago who knew Greenberg and greenberg set himself up as a lead expert in trying to determine You know child abuse he had this you know organization called child abuse unit for studies out of the university of illinois I guess you know where i'm going and i'm trying to bring the audience along What we've come to understand is a lot of these groups that routinely testify in defense of these pedophiles in these trials are kind of a well organized network of the false memory syndrome phony baloney shit connected with nambla and this guy sounds like Kind of the same thing and the fact that he's kind of hand picked To come in and give testimony contradict, you know to put the facts in a certain way Have you done any investigation into who might have been behind? Positioning him in that way Other than gray coaler have not been able to figure out anything else that goes higher than him now greenberg I think he ended up charging uh florida health rebuild today services 168 thousand dollars for his work on the finder's case I mean he was offered nine contracts for his work on the finder's case to improve florida's response and training to handle child sexual abuse after the case In greenberg even mentions through some of the news articles that he does say the children were neglected Unlike mc martin where he didn't think nothing happened But he later came to the conclusion that they were not sexually abused And so we the only evidence that we have of sexual abuse is the examinations by dr Moore who i tried to track down but he's been deceased for five years And i'm still trying to track down jane up patilla of the florida health rehabilitative services to see if i can get her side But he mentioned that it was in and this is preliminary Review this isn't you know, this isn't i wish we had something more Substantiated the disciplinary me that i haven't you know, there's more than what's in the ties police department documents And max living stone lacked anal speech or control consistent with previous previous sodomy And jordan arreco's right hyman was absent and a large vaginal orifice, which is consistent with digital penetration That was never followed up So other than them eventually other than eventually saying that that nothing happened Both the tassie police department and the news media and dr. Nyman greenberg So so here's the really interesting part of this story And that's a misstatement because the whole story is interesting But let's skip ahead a little bit because the tassie police are still investigating this and then they're Call off it said hey, maybe you don't want to look there and then let's lead back to As quickly as we can martinez because i think that provides overwhelming evidence that these kids were being sexually molested, abused, tortured, all the rest of it so tie those strings together So as far as the tassie police department is concerned skip clements gave me in his interview that the fbi And jacksonville told the tassie police department to to wrap up their case Recuffment on the other hand just says the case was done That they had you reunited the children with their parents and it was up to the courts to decide whether or not Anything had occurred when the children should be released back to their parents I want to talk to scott hunt of the tassie police department. It was very vocal at the time He was the organizer of the press about what was going on that the children were molested and that it was satanic ritual abuse But he will not talk to anyone So hopefully one day that if scott hunt ever listens to this interview, I hope that he does reach out to me or reaches out derrick broser just reaches out to someone so That is the way it is Framed was that It's you know, it just was a natural course investigation and it was wrapped up and it was put off to the courts Okay, just this is what I heard and I guess i'm picking through these little bits that I remember I heard there's people in the tassie police That are really pissed off and they're like what the hell is going on? What do you mean wrap up our investigation? That's what clements said and I would have to agree with them because the tassie police department documents are not redacted I mean the fbi released the tassie police department documents and they redacted them and you're supposed to redact Certain information in most documents those documents are not redacted at all what I hear you saying is They are making a statement In not redacting those documents. They're saying we're not playing ball here and hiding this crime That's what I hear you say I would have to say yes. I have no firm evidence on that. I would just have to say with what I know Yeah, because most of the time you're supposed to redact Certain information victims names sometimes or um, especially if they're children, you're supposed to redact their names No redactions were performed Even when I got the store forward of police department documents on james tower and I've seen many many many different types of documents ranging from law enforcement to fbi to cia You're supposed to redact certain things tassie police and I'm grateful they didn't redact anything Nothing's redacted in a tassie police department documents. It's it's just the documents And we have further evidence as the story goes that would corroborate and seem to be consistent with this idea That they were pulled off of a case That they didn't think they should be pulled off of and that's what gets us to martinez when the same thing happens To him. So who is ramon j martinez? And how does he fit into this story? So ramon j martinez was an exemplary customs officer who worked for the child pornography division Headed by john sullivan And uh, what year what basic timeframe is this? late eighties So it's 1980s He's Working for the customs office. What is the customs office doing? Investigating child pornography at one time they did they don't anymore That was ended after the finders and they tried to get another bill passed By tom lewis representative tom lewis in florida to reinstate the child pornography unit. Um See but john whenever I ask you a basic question you jump three steps ahead You're in customs customs is responsible for stuff that comes into the trafficking trafficking Keeping bad stuff out and only letting good stuff in so it isn't too much of an extension of those responsibilities To think that they would be interested in Children who are not coming in and pornography that violates our laws if we have child pornography Done by somebody overseas that is not supposed to come in so that might be under the purview of of Customs it was in the 1980s. So martinez was responsible for looking into this And what does he stumble across in washington dc? So when the tahassee Information is going on they contact the washington metropolitan police department once they find out that the finders are involved up there in washington So the washington metropolitan police department contacts the fbi. They contact the customs agency so Ramon j martinez goes to investigate the finders warehouse and the finders apartments buildings on w street And so during his investigation, which I later Rated i'm the first person that I know of to get his partner bob herald on the record with what he found And bob herald. Okay, so we've had ramon j martinez's report of the investigation It's been on the internet since the back the days of usenet back in the 90s big picture What does that report say and then tell me about it? What is partners? The only reason I want to get to that because I'm going to disclose something here that is not previously known It's very important bob herald's report of investigation used to be on usenet too It's completely scrubbed off the face of the internet and does not exist I cannot find it bob herald tried to find it. He can't find it. He doesn't have a copy of it. It does not exist So they set up the narrative of what i'm about to tell you about ramon j martinez That he was a lone nutter that he did this to advance his position in customs and that he made it all up And try to bury any cooperating evidence that to his report of what he found And that is complete and utter bull crap. Okay. Well, it's again, we're going to get back to that other thing it's bull crap because The tallahassee police in 1987 Arrested these guys in the park and there were all these kids that were severely Mistreated and the kids tied back to washington dc. I mean there's direct that that's why the tallahassee police Was even able to tell martinez and as you point out washington dc police say oh, yeah that plays We investigated that years ago and we've been investigating it ever seen over the past couple of years because of reports that have Called in and stuff like that. It's nothing new. So so again that that that false narrative I mean we can spend some time on it like you're saying to let people know that it's a false narrative But we don't have to overemphasize it because it's just Freaking ridiculous given everything we know. So now what what does martinez's Report actually say because we have reason to believe that that's more truthful than the false narrative and how does you know Bob herald. Do you talk to you directly? What are those reports? collectively Let us know So first they raid the w street apartments and in there they find finders member steward myles silvers stone In a room that contained many computers printers and contained numerous documents now when I talked to herald He told me that a majority of the computer equipment was taken out That before they had gotten there someone had tipped them off before they had raided The apartments and the warehouse would talk about the warehouse raid later And the computers that were in the warehouse where they had quite been in there too as well was completely gone Okay, so and where else did they raid? They the finders warehouse in washington dc. They raided both places So they found documents supposedly containing instructions on obtaining children for unknown purposes They found telex messages with mci account numbers They found one telex order to purchase of children of two children in hong kong to be arranged from a contact in the chinese embassy in hong kong They found a chinese national jin zing wang Who was an anatomy student at georgetown university who was staying there too also and of course Mary who was giordorico to the talhasa police department She claims that you know, there were a lot of chinese people that were around the apartments And they actually taught her to count the tin and chinese So this does they also find that that's fantastic information. It's horrible information But i'm glad that you share all that don't they also find information on like kind of instruction manuals and how to groom and part of what Panographers and child molesters would would have other consistent information with that They find books on mind control and they find books on papers about the impregnation of the women and the finder's group operation because it's horrific as this is people should know that Among some of these groups that commit these horrible crimes against children They're done at a very young age. So newborns Infants, you know, it's just prime property to this kind of evil group And and they also found a summary of the events of talhasa that was being communicated by the finder's operation from the because there's two vans There was a group of finders members who were not caught separate from amerman and hollowwell That went back to dc afterwards. So they were sending information from a second trs 80 computer that was found outside of the university of florida bingo So we have a direct connection between the talhasa case and again It's like that's pissing me off about the false narrative stuff. I'm why do we even have to talk that much about it? It's just But another interesting thing that I want to get out is there was a series of instructions We're also found how to continue moving children to avoid police detection Well, why what children what children other than the six children were they, you know, the those children were Put into protective custody and so you have a detailed summary of events of what happened in talhasa Why would you get orders about Moving children to avoid police detection after that So we have an incredibly Creepy evil in the in the way that that anyone would account for it and we'll talk about extended consciousness Maybe we'll talk about christianity and satanism and all that stuff, but this is evil, right? So this is anyone would say anyone says this is evil. These are defenseless human beings at such a tender age There are being robbed of their innocence their lives are destroyed It's not innocence. Their entire lives are destroyed. Their psyche is destroyed and they're adding on They're adding on to it mind control and all this other horrible horrible horrific stuff How does that connect to our united states government because it does directly and you have proof of it And we need to get that proof out there and so people understand Well, I do want to say about the warehouse real quick that they they did find a doctor nation center They found video equipment. They found jars of urine and feces in the residential area So the warehouse, you know, like I when I talked about the information with uh herald He mentioned that they had computer equipment there that they were tipped off beforehand the night before that they had Chinese Witnesses who owned a warehouse next to the finders warehouse that they were loading equipment in boxes and boxes Into vans the night before the raid occurred. So someone tipped them off Right, which is important to know but we have enough information there to Sync them a million times over and put them Way way down where they need to go. So imagine again, this is a law enforcement investigation Martinez and herald are there with the rest of their investigators. It's a raid. We've seen them on tv We know this is what this is like But this raid only goes so far because again, they get the tap on the shoulder, right? Well, the information disappears when martinez and herald Go to review the information, you know, the telex is the documents that they had found when they go to look at the evidence It's gone It's miraculously disappeared. It cannot be found and then Martinez meets with a source off the record that you know pretty much tells them. That's it Nothing that can be done. You know further investigation is going to happen And nothing happens of it. How do they understand this is linked to the cia and the fbi And the new documents that were released by the fbi ball The cia was investigating the finders well within the 1960s Mary and petty's wife isabel petty worked for the central intelligence agency as a secretary He put her in there to gain information from the cia The fbi was investigating the finders as early as the late 1960s the early 1970s as well Toby terrell worked for a company called future enterprises where future enterprises is computer training company Who's toby terrell? He was very high up within the finders operation. His name is robert garter terrell And he was mary and petty's second in command What other evidence do we have that the finders? operation slash cult Had connections and was part of this brownstone operation that was ongoing Inside of both the fbi and the cia because as we established early on There is an irresistible Desire for these intelligence organizations to use this exploitation of children Regardless of who's doing it in this case these horrific finders Group they still want the kids so that they can entrap people and blackmail them So how do we establish that that connection really did happen? Because of the equipment that was found at the warehouse as well them also taking Supposedly video cassettes and pictures out of the warehouse that contained child pornography that Martinez and herald never were able to look at again However, there's many news reports that those pictures were carried amount in plastic bags as evidence As well as in toby terrell's book the game caller and i have not talked to athena veronius Yeah, former fbi agent, but i will talk with her He says that she told him That you know because he was you know She shows up and she well she calls him at the future enterprise's office wanting to talk to him And he goes okay, so he because he's hiding out there at first So he meets her down there and so they talk and so she pretty much tells him That don't worry Be kept on a raps. That's not her exact quote that's used in the book, but it's it's to that and so you know When athena veronius when all when she goes to see the evidence That ermone martinez had found and she goes to investigate the warehouse and the apartment buildings afterwards She says she finds nothing and makes out that martinez is a liar So they were bearing the fbi was bearing it from the get go So that's circumstantial evidence. It's good. What other evidence do we have linking martinez to cia or fbi programs What do you mean? I mean other than clements giving the testimony that you know the customs agents were told by The intelligence operations to stand down On the second day of their investigation of the of the warehouse and apartment If I remember correctly and I could be wrong because you know, you're the principal investigator I just think you have an overflow of information in your head. They're told directly that this is cia operation. Don't go Yes, they're told directly this cia operation in the stand down. Yes Who is told when are they told how do we know that's the customs agents were told this by testimony of henry clements who was an investigator of both glendale and the finders And who remone j martinez had mentioned that he respected clements in his whistleblower complaint To give you know clements credibility. He was told through his investigation that the customs agents were told that this was a cia operation We're told to stand down Just like the reports that were the metropolitan police department reports that were secret that were, you know, declassified That detective john stitcher and jim bradley jim bradley He mentions that there are connections to the central intelligence agency and his report But however that they were tangentially and that they were using the finders to disseminate inaccurate information That was the only involvement that the cia had with the finders that they would give them inaccurate information to disseminate to People kind of a disinformation campaign and john stitcher who we don't have his full report But I do have his chronology from the metropolitan police department that was unredacted that henry clements gave to me And i'm the only person with that copy that i know of that states that maryan petty had passports to north korea usssr in vietnam Through the 1950s throughout the 1980s, which would have been almost impossible to have said passports would return back to united states soil after visiting those places without having some sort of higher in connection To an intelligence agencies, which is listed in that chronology john you keep bringing up these connections to communists foreign powers china north korean stuff like that. Why do you think that's important? How do you think that fits into this story? I don't think you're trying to Uh disparage chinese people No, no, no, no, I'm just saying that's where that that's just what the evidence shows in that But what are your suspicions in terms of how these links work? Well, how is the game? I mean the people as they listen to this they're they're like you are they're saying give me the evidence Give it the evidence, but then they're switching to the other side and goes. What's the big picture? Why why north korea? Why these other things and it's because there's this World child trafficking usually through a lot of those child child trafficking. It's worldwide drug trafficking arms partnering with organizations governments Intelligence organizations that have greater freedom and control to do whatever the heck they want to people Yes, and you know you to become allies in in evil deeds Yeah, I mean very much so so they you know to facilitate all this it can't just happen within the united states and above itself You have to work with foreign intelligence agencies and foreign governments You don't have to but it's a great cover, right? I'm well. Yeah. Yeah, I move it to china and now it's buried You can't get to it It's just like if I move it outside of the government into some private contractor Dinecore or whatever now it's harder for you to get at it or massage connections to jeffrey epstein You know it makes it talk about that. So so are there any parallels between there are obviously between finders and jeffrey epstein and what we see in the suspicion that we have that this is a brownstone operation Intelligence clearly there's all the links to misad there, but there's also links to the cia with the epstein case, right? Yes, very much so so it's I mean with robert maxwell and gusay maxwell robert maxwell being uh Termed, you know the israelis super spy for the misad I mean that with every brownstone operation where there's franklin or epstein or the finders You have connections to foreign intelligence agencies and connections to heads of state of foreign governments or even the governments of your own Country and I think you know they cooperate with one other exactly like you said a minute ago alex Is is to kind of you know, I can only investigate really so much what happens in the united states I can't really look into the misad connections Very easily in freedom of information requests And at all over there in israel to try to get any information of certain connections and maybe of or china You know how how am I going to petition the chinese government to release any information about the finders over there Or any investigations of the finder occurred by the chinese government or russia? I mean it's hard enough to get information from my own government Let alone foreign governments So you're writing this book on the finders cult slash operation. Do you have a working title at this point? No, I do not Where do you think? This book is going to take you. What is the angle on the book? What are you trying to? At the end of the day, what are you trying to reveal? The biggest thing that i'm trying to do with this book Is is a way to clear ramon j martinez and that he has been slandered by multiple people within the media There's a guy trying to make a documentary named tyler rabbit who interviewed many finders members and who interviewed ramon j martinez and everything And he's trying to push the narrative that there's nothing to see here that there were no intelligence connections or anything like that The basic narrative that the finders were just a progressive cult And so, you know ramon j martinez. He lost everything, you know the customs department railroaded him When you read the whistleblower complaint, I mean they shut him down. They Destroyed his career. So this book my main objective with this book other than to get down to the bottom of what really happened Is to clear ramon j martinez's name the best of my ability Because you know people still to this day they throw the finders out because they're like oh ramon j martinez He's just a right wing militia Nutter and you know and and that's one of the biggest problems that we have of all this Trying to show a body of evidence that just that this occurred You know as I mentioned very early on you have kind of sent me On this journey But you know when we interviewing anica lucas who I just shared with you who was sold into sex slavery by her mother at six years old And one of the things I thought that was interesting because I want to return to the satanic part of the ritual abuse so People have heard my interview with anica and she says how she was you know just It's horrific the the rape over and over and over again But eventually they were going to kill her and then i'm asking her and I said well some people Like ross dizdar who I talked to also who has worked with Hundreds of victims of satanic ritual abuse. So he has people that come and say it was satanic They were wearing robes. They were drawing these inverted pentagrams in blood and you know all this other this other symbology and they were repeating these satanic phrases And he has as an investigator who has worked with the police He says this is the evidence you can make with it what you will but this is what these people are reporting So the interesting thing for me is i'm talking to anica and anica you can watch her You know 500 000 viewed YouTube when she talks about this horror of child sex trafficking that she went through but the terms are even Soffin it's child sex trafficking. It's not repeatedly being raped and then being Yeah being on the block to be murdered and is spared But here's the point I was leading up to I said well, what about the satanic part because I just talked to ross and he's Big on the satanic. She goes. Oh, yeah It was satanic ritual abuse and I was like blown away like my stomach drops because here's somebody And she presents as this kind of european and she doesn't like to throw that out there But when she's pushed she says of course. Yeah, it's satanic So I think we need to process that In a way that gets us to that next level because you're christian And I don't respect Anyone's religious beliefs. I'm sorry. I don't respect your religious beliefs I don't respect anyone's religious beliefs because we're not supposed to we're just supposed to follow the data We're not supposed to have you don't need me to be Kind to you or not poke at you because you have certain beliefs You put your beliefs out there and you have to back them up and that's what everybody does But I want to get to that next you are going to be attacked And you know this and I'm sure you already are As a crazy christian who is trying to jam everything back into a christian narrative And I want to talk so that's one of the reasons I want to talk about this and talk about You know, we've just had a two-hour discussion And you didn't bring up christian at all You just said this document followed by this document followed by this police report followed by this investigator Who I talked to who said this so That's not been your agenda But now From us as a skeptico guy I want to know why the hell do you want to jam this back into A christian narrative. Why do you think it has to be one of the things that really kind of Pissed me off. John is in the email. You sent me You kind of said yes as long as it all leads back to christianity Why why does this evil have to lead back to this narrow dogmatic little book? That is just one Description of what this universal evil that's been reported by every culture throughout time whether christian or not Why do we need to jam it back into the christian narrative? You have atheist reporters An investigative journalist For example, george from cabdeff.org wrote uh, dave mcgallon Who've reported satanic ritual abuse? People who are either agnostic or Don't believe in god or religion period. You definitely don't believe in christianity like myself They came to the same conclusion that the elites are participating in satanic ritual abuse Satan primarily being the adversary in the old testament And the adversary in the new testament So my question to you is to throw it back Is yes, i might frame it as such because of my own personal faith and my own personal beliefs as being satanic ritual abuse and i'd ask you why don't you frame it as Why do you use the term satanic? when Why wouldn't you just use ritual abuse? Why wouldn't you just use? religious ritual abuse Those people look at it objectively Who are not christian and see it as such with the inverted pentagrams the references to satan that the world elite use So if they look at it as that then I mean I get you they're as objective as they are Asjective is there because they're not looking at it through my lens now granted. Do I Do my best to look at it objectively outside of my faith? Yes, do I believe ultimately that this all leads to Christianity to some degree or Judaism as far as the beliefs in satan the beliefs of good and evil god versus satan Yeah, I do But someone like Dave McGowan that's not the case someone like George from cavdav.org That's not the case now ruzzizdar. Yes, he's a christian So he's gonna look at it through that lens But these other people who are not are also because the elites practice it in such that regard Look at it and through that lens Two as well. So again, what do you have to say? Thank you. Thank you for teeing up an excellent question In this vast Unplowed field that exists out there between atheism and Christianity or some other dogmatic religious belief John You know, I have a ton of respect like I've already said for the work that you've done Here's where I'm coming at it from and you know this from having listened to some of the skeptico episodes Yes, of course. I have no doubt That christ consciousness Is real. I don't know what christ consciousness is But I accept the scientific data that leads us to the conclusion that consciousness Does exist. It's real. We are not biologic robots in a meaningless universe and the other data that you just get to scientifically, which is that Near-death experience Is real, right? So we have the best cardiologist in the world and resuscitation experts and radiation oncologist 200 peer-reviewed journals and they're all telling us the same thing that consciousness seems to survive Bodily death in a way that completely blows our understanding of this brain-based consciousness apart That then leads us to taking seriously the accounts Of the near-death experience. Yes. Now many of those accounts as you know point to the reality of a christian experience But if you take the full body of that knowledge It points to that not being an exclusively true club What seems to emerge and this isn't a huge leap, but it's just where the data has taken me is that We are co-creators Of reality That there is this greater good. There is this light that we can access and we are co-creators of it So of course christianity and in particular christ consciousness, which I maintain is all any christian can ever talk about because the books are hopeless no intelligently thinking christian really relies on literal scripture It just doesn't make sense Invariably what they say and what I respect is I have a personal relationship with jesus Which means I have a personal relationship with christ consciousness. Great. I have up on the screen multiple people who I've interviewed Let me interject. I used to have your train of thought. I used to be Gnostic in my beliefs Christ consciousness Blends in to Gnosticism. No, not necessarily But I I understand that I have no problem with you questioning mine. I have no issue with that whatsoever Great. So, you know, there's no protected belief system here and in the court of public opinion What you believe if you're a flat earther that matters that matters to your credibility And so what what matters to me is what you just said you you kind of mischaracterized My I told you that my belief in extended consciousness and again I got 400 shows that document my long progression into understanding one that consciousness exists And that the atheistic materialistic Mean that where I think is is purposely Perpetrated in order to prevent us provide a blockage for us really accessing Extended consciousness and the broader understanding of that But then you never really responded to my observation That there is no reason to limit those extended consciousness realms to christian only and as a matter of fact, you know All the near-death experience accounts. They are not Gnostic in the way that you're talking about they just aren't you're mischaracterizing them But you're framing it as christ consciousness and that is Gnosticism That's your understanding of of my word christ consciousness. You can define it as Gnostic So you're just you're just defining as human consciousness No, I'm saying Look, here's what I'm here's what I was trying to say We have a soul that we have a spirit that there is an afterlife of some sort right or am I mistaken mistaken Okay What I'm saying is that I don't understand consciousness I do understand from the data that it's obvious that we have an awareness of What we are and that I would call consciousness And I'm also persuaded by the data that that awareness extends beyond our bodily death That realm and extends beyond our body That realm of extension. I call extended consciousness Now in that extended consciousness realm It's people are consistently reporting that they are encountering all kinds of spiritual beings Some of them appear to be benevolent guardian angels Relatives that are seem to be cooperating and helping people in meaningful ways in their life And they come back and their life is transformed or their life is healed So we have other ways that as just normal common-sense people we would say Gee that seems like the benevolent Cooperation of a spirit in an extended realm without Jamming that into some frickin christian or muslim or buddhist thing that just seems to be happening My use of the term christ Consciousness is derived from the fact that people Say in that extended realm they have reported Meeting of spiritual being that they understand at that time To be jesus christ of the christian tradition of the bible So that is the way i'm using christ consciousness for those specific people that that is their report I don't know what to make of their report. So then i'm leaping to the next level and saying It doesn't take a genius to say there seems to be good and bad in this extended consciousness realm We seem to be co-creators of this extended consciousness realm. We can create the good We can look to the light we can ascend and do good things with our spirit Or it seems to be the truth the reality that we just talked about That we can connect and identify with this need for satisfying this material Existence here this wanting of things of power of sex of money of control And this fear of death this fear of annihilation of this ego Little mini me that i've created That i don't that that seems to be so much broader than this narrowly little defined One religion kind of thing it one assumes the other I don't know why we want to try and jam it back in the other But again, I don't want to get distracted That is just my read of the data john. I don't I don't know how one Pulls that data apart any differently. I don't get it Okay, let me ask you a question then Explain to me satanic ritual abuse without using the christian lens then Of people saying that inverted pentagrams of you are used Satanism is involved that they're invoking demons if it's not that Then you know if it's not that then I want to know how you see it Correct because there are many people who are giving that narrative Let me give an attempt at it and The last thing I want to do is sound like I know anything here because I don't but this is A topic that I am going to dive into further and further because again to me It's the unplugged field in this whole spirituality extended consciousness I pulled up on the screen if you can ignore joe atwell because I know you hate him. I want to point you I don't okay. I don't hate him as a person. I just dislike a lot of his reasoning. Those are two separate things I'm going to draw your attention to the book by richard smolley who was on the show how god became god One of the things that I think is interesting about this Oxford trained theologian or just researcher really who's just written all these terrific books He's a very scholarly guy because he goes back and he traces the kind of very early pre-tora Judaic documents and what he finds is No satan So he finds all the stories that wind up in the Torah in the old testament with satan in him But he finds them with no satan Now let me ask you some questions about that. Does he bring up joe? Possibly being written first and how satan is shown there as to be the adversary But as an agent of god to to challenge joe because I have not listened to an interview or read his book So I don't know but I would assume that is one of the conclusions that he makes You know, I can't tell you that off the top of my head But I hope to have him back on and I will ask him that exact question But that doesn't directly answer your question The direct answer For me in your question is Of course satan is real because we are co-creators of that reality Can shape themselves into whatever our mind Shapes them this idea is repeated over and over in a lot of great spiritual traditions And in a lot of esoteric traditions and it just seems to be a reality of the universe We are co-creators. So if your thought form goes to satan Yes, you will find connection and The way I always put it is as below so above I mean, can you find Creepy people who want to do horribly Pathetic psychopathic things. Can you find them in this world? You certainly can like ted bundy and I know you've heard the story and I heard it on ed opperman I don't want to thread opperman under the bus. He does a lot of really great stuff But the story I love about ted bundy is ted bundy isn't into satanic shit He's into doing the most evil. He's connected with some evil spiritual force that is You know Allying with him as he's done these evil deeds, but is he open? Too satanic stuff when he encounters another guy along his journey and I forget the guy's name. He says, oh, yeah, man I'll tell you how to double down on the power that you're tapping into Here it is do this ritual do this and ted bundy is like Why the hell not? I mean i'm already My soul if you will is already at that level. Why wouldn't I be open to that? I think that ties back to what you're talking about the you know, you go to the party with king You go to the party with epstein, you know, you're already Sunk your battleship man. So I don't know. That's my that's my understanding of yes There's a reality to it and you are a co-creator of that reality of the satanic stuff So let me ask you a question. Alex. Do you believe in a higher power in the god or in a creator? I'm just curious Well, I mean take what I just said Well, not outside of ourselves. Do you believe in A divine being that created See, that's the problem with the christian thing No, no Who am I to presuppose that I understand the mind of god? I'm saying is there a creator separate from yours. That's not just from the christian lens That is for many different religions and and I guess that's my point down on me to be combative because you're Fantastic buddy, and you got to keep doing what you're doing. I think that overreaches My knowledge like one of the things I take stock in is the fact that so many people who reach this extended consciousness realm Have this download of information have this all knowing but then they're not able to maintain it I don't think in my you know in my physical Body, I'm able to understand the mind of god in enough to understand What that means in terms of god What I do think one of my working things is that the secret to the ascent Is to always look up and that answers the question for me I need to ascend my soul needs to ascend I need to do good things Have good thoughts. I need to emanate the love that I see coming through These people that are transformed by these experiences That's where I need to be and that's really simple. It's just not that complicated I don't need to understand god. I just need to Be more like these people that are Are emanating all that stuff that seems to be godlike and I need to not do the stuff that all these people do that seem to be emanating this Satanic devil bad stuff. It ain't that freaking complicated I can't I can't say that you can't do good not you know being a christian like an atheist cannot I'm not saying you're atheist, but just using that as an example cannot do good works I mean that happens But you know the only the only Difference between me and you and that belief is it's it's faith versus works faith in god versus You know works as far as You know as far as Your soul Going to the afterlife. Why would you want to have faith? Why not have doubt? Doubt is the most spiritual thing faith is decided. I just you know when I just spoke recently with That's not necessarily true christian. I just spoke with this woman who's in the rampa cult, you know, and I kind of told her Skeptico inquiry to perpetuate doubt and she goes. Oh, no, I don't have any doubt. I know I know because I'm in the cult hold on Did you talk to jay jay jay z night the head of the raffle school of enlightenment or someone that was in a disciple Let's talk about that off of this Take this part off I mean to be saying that but let's talk about let's talk about that off air sometimes I don't know what we talk about off air. It's a cult and no, I mean me and you let's talk about it off air sometimes their connections to pushing q and you know and them Larping the stuff since the 1990s and everything and then pushing trump and we'll talk about off that off happy to But the the the bottom line to me is christianity You know, here's the I guess the hard the hard edge question related to this Is that and I think a lot of people would see it this way. So I'm not like uniquely pushing this But what's been revealed so far? particularly like the catholic church thing or this interview I did with kevin annette former minister for the church canada All these horrible crimes evil church against I mean the pedo pope none of that stuff From the optics from the high level Would lead people to your understanding of christianity. How how you try and rescue christianity from that mess It fits much better with that's not christianity though. Oh, right It's the same as me saying, you know, was your child ever at a daycare or a public school Or a school period, you know, it's really not because the catholic church Is the church right before A few years ago. There wasn't even any other christian church other than the catholic church But it from its very inception. It wasn't like that though. That's the corruption of the of the The fruit of the tree No one's arguing here now that you're not going to have bad faith actors within any religion I mean, you could say the same thing about islam. You could say you think heck What about when I did my series tracking the abuse throughout all religions and the abuse that occurred in buddhist temples? buddhism's farthest from the farthest from that but it's And that supports that supports what i'm saying. It doesn't support what you're saying for the but it happens and it happens outside of religion too Exactly It happens my point, but that's my point again This is what christians don't get because there's so it's all apologetics It's all bringing it back and jamming it. I'm not saying that there have been evil things that have happened with Again, you're not you're not here in my point. I'm probably not here in your point But here's my point is that Just optics just looking at from the big picture like I was talking about in the narrative with You know, why do we have to explore these silly narratives that the the guy who's going to defend The the finders cult saying oh, yeah, well, so we're teaching this three-year-old animal husbandry And that's why we dip their hands in the blood and you know made him do it. You know, it's like that's a crazy story so It's equally crazy to me to say Oh, yeah, well all these christian groups and the largest christian Sect of the cult in in history the catholics seem to be systemically institutionally involved with Sex crimes against children, but that doesn't matter. There's a truer christianity behind it. Kevin Annette comes on and says Oh, yeah, it's not just the catholics in canada here. It's the church of canada and I approve of it Oh, but that doesn't shed that doesn't reflect poorly on christianity You know jesus is still working behind all this. It doesn't it just doesn't really add up. It doesn't really add up Are you an american citizen? Yes What about all the crimes at the height? Okay, I believe in the american people as me being an american citizen I believe in the ideals of the american people of what the american people stand for You know, but when you look at america as a whole the founding fathers majority of them were masons majority of them practiced You know a lot of things that we would find just as a horrent today as as you know Our elites do now, okay, so you're telling me well, yeah At the high, you know the high the christian, you know belief that you have the pope You have you know the the crimes of the southern baptist church to the cmp like judge paul pressler and stuff like that You have all these scandals within christianity. Therefore, you you know There's also good fruits for example What about the work that I have done? as a christian or my My best friend's mother down the street who's a catholic who has no idea what happens at the top of the catholic church But she spends you know her weekends, you know volunteering and and being a good person and stuff like that and everything I'm just saying all that that's better into my model than it does into your mom No, it doesn't because you you're an american citizen. I'm an american citizen We know that the american government has done horrific crimes Horrific crimes But yet we still choose to be citizens of this country in the hope that you know one day That the good that the american public have done will outweigh the bad of what the government has done Yes, there are corruption within god's church. There's no Denying that just like there's corruption within any religion. So I mean That's not the tenets of christianity just like, you know molestation and buddhist temples aren't the tenets of buddhism so I'm sure or the or the ritual abuse that happens at the mikvah baths. I mean We take the old testament. That's not what's taught by the Buddhist you can throw stones at them. I'm not I just talked about judias Right there. I'm right there with you. How about the fact that most british most buddhist cults have not In sex have not been open to the or Ordaining women. I mean, how do you make any sense out of that? It doesn't make any sense again We got to wrap things up because you got to go you've been so generous with all your time here But it does not to me just take a step back It is not Supportive of your exclusively christian only jesus is orchestrating the whole thing It's much more consistent with what i'm saying, which is This stuff isn't that hard to figure out. We have to ascend. We have to try and raise our soul to That higher consciousness that we all know from a early kid You know the the stuff you're supposed to do if you don't need jesus It's like my friend kevin and that says why is the world order? Doing their darnedest to frame anybody who's a christian like myself As someone who is just crazy ludicic insane if there was not some truth within the new testament That's a ridiculous question. Why how's that ridiculous because they they frame it as they frame it as they say tannic panic They frame it as crazy christians. That's what they frame it as right But the the the purpose for that is is more Again, it's like all the stuff we've talked about here. It's just more You know, why do they do? Why do they do brown brown stoning because it advances their agenda? So if your agenda is to control everybody and if you're in concert with the most evil Manevalent spiritual forces, which we don't understand which I'm saying I don't understand you understand because they're all in your thing there I'm saying I don't understand them, but I can understand how someone in partnership understand everything I can understand why someone in partnership with that would completely object to To what you're saying because you're you're at the end of the day. You're doing the same thing. I do you're trying to Ascend you're trying to raise your vibration. You're trying to raise your soul whether you like those terms or not That's what you're trying to do. I'm trying to go to heaven. Yes So They're against they're against me as much as they're against you just because I don't identify as a christian I didn't say they weren't I didn't say they were not against you in that regard as far as you trying to bring Ritual satanic abuse alive. I didn't say just like Dave McGowan was an atheist and they were against him or jorah. I'm not saying that at all I'm just saying is nationally though as a collective they frame it specifically against christianity At least with here in the united states and you can see it also there with europe now Your arguments that could be would be because those are regional regions where christianity exists But there are satanic ritual abuse cases throughout the globe That are not in christian areas. So you know again, I You know you and I are not going to Are not going to you know agree on this and We're just we just won't I and I do say the more that you The more that you investigate satanic ritual abuse The more just just be on the lookout for and just see how many instances where they're trying to Degrade christianity specifically, of course Um john Ben is this book coming out again our guest folks has been john brison You can find them at we read the documents You can find many fantastic interviews again. This is a guy who does the research so many of his interviews that i've listened to have been extremely Fundamentally instructive for me in understanding this so our little foray into the christian debate to me is Completely separate than the solid research. This guy is doing tell us more about this book when you think I know it's a huge project when you think that might be out and how people can Follow your investigative work Thank you, alexa good for having me on skeptico. And yeah, even though we had a Great, you know, I wouldn't even call this just debating I still you know appreciate, you know your friendship and appreciate you looking into this and everything and And yeah, you guys can find me on we've read the documents on youtube We've read on twitter Hopefully this book will be out by the end of this year. I got about half of it written about 150 170 pages But i'm still trying to track down some more people to interview to the case to be able to get more information about the overall Finders nexus some people have not been able to fully been able to track down yet. It's it's possible sometimes Even using spokio and and certain uh websites to try to to track down people could be quite difficult But there are you know, I still want to interview some of the children that were put into custody down there at Tallahassee to try to get some information from the finders derrick brose has interviewed robert garter terrell Um and we've got to interview with him on there just so I want to you know, ask them questions It's try to gain more information And and also wanted to try to interview uh former fbi agent athena veronius And you know, so I still have more interviews that I want to do for the book to try to get to ask questions to try to get More information out there. Um, and hopefully it will be Tendably i'm looking towards end of this year for it to be out. Hopefully one of the things I love about your work Like you're gonna interview athena. I can't wait that is not going to be a friendly interview, right? No No, it's not most people are not brave enough to do those, you know, so so that's very cool I hope you should probably won't do it But you've done. Oh, but I'm gonna try Yeah, and you've done other ones with kind of non-friendly. So that's that's real investigation Yes, thank you, Alex You're awesome john Thank you much for spending all this time with us and I'll try and put this into some form that people can maybe understand Thank you. Take care everybody. Bye Thanks again to john brison for joining me today on skeptico the one question I'd have to tee up from this interview and it's the follow-on question that we didn't get to to the end With all this mounting evidence of satanic ritual abuse What are we to make of satan? and his role And in particular, what are we to make of the very narrowly defined christian definition? Let me know your thoughts as I mentioned at the beginning of this show. There's been Somewhat of a mass exodus from skeptico as I continue to probe the topic of evil and all its dimensions And I get that this is a tough road So if you're with me if you're still following along If you'd like to jump in this dialogue and join me Please hop on over to the skeptico forum.com. Leave me a note Let me know what you're thinking and let me know your answer to that question I have a number of great shows. I think coming up. Please stay with me for all of that till next time Take care and bye for now