 You can now follow me on all my social media platforms to find out who my latest guest will be and don't forget to click the subscribe button and the notifications button so you're notified for when my next podcast goes live. In June of 1977 moved to Hitch Rocks and that's when I forced Matt Bobby Saunds and Kevin Lynch and Tom McElwee on the hunger strike. All I heard was da da dip dip dip dip dip dip dip dip but it was like Pointe Blanqueray and he was firing but he was firing at another guy and me, there was two of us and I was hit there, and there was a couple of thousand of them, we're all shot and we're going to rape all damn women. And he says we're on that church, we're going to burn that school, we're going to burn that whole fucking area out. You know, it wasn't about religion, it wasn't a holy war. It was about a territorial struggle to reclaim the six counties, to destroy the 300-mile frontier, which divided Ireland in 1921. It was to remove that and to free the country. I've been involved in shooting attacks on the British Army, RUC, and also involved in commercial bombing. You know, when you look at people losing their lives, people taking lives, and the whole diminishing the fact of it, you know, trains you. When their cell door opened, only the priest entered, and after a few minutes he left. Within seconds, Brent and Q's, with his voice breaking, shouted down the wing. Well, he's dead. Boom, we're on. And today's guest, we've got Seamus Kearney. Seamus, thanks for coming on the show. Thank you, Seamus for inviting me. Yeah, I've read your book, Powerful. No greater love. You spent time in Longkesh, H blocks, tortured, beaten. You also befriended Bobby Sands, who was involved in a hunger strike with 10 men, lost their life, and very powerful book about the struggles and what you get involved in, why you were fighting, and very powerful, but these stories are very dark as well. It's what people have to suffer, not just on your side, but both sides. There's a lot of pain, there's a lot of conflict. What your book is, it's one of the best reads I've actually read, that very powerful, very deep. Where can people buy your book, Seamus? You can buy the book at Calderland Bookshop on the Falls Road, West Belfast. And we're also selling it in Little Acorn Bookshop in Falls Street and Derry. Those are the two main hubs. That's it, really. How was it writing your book? It was, I started it, it took four years. So I started in 2017, in the autumn of 2017, and I had notes from when I first got out, and I went into the attic and found them. So a lot of that, a lot of the book was actually wrote back in 1987. You know, it was just a matter of putting it all together and putting the beginning of the middle and the end to it, so that it built up a structure, but the actual detail I had from 1987. And I wasn't ready to put that book down on paper back then, again, because it was coming out of prison. I was trying to rebuild my life, and to be honest, I wanted to move away from it and forget about it. So it didn't revisit until 2017. Just kind of putting it in the back of the mind and just forget it ever existed. Yeah, because it was too painful to revisit. And every time I went back to it, I couldn't handle it, to be honest. It was just too complex. For me, and for a lot of us, it was cataclysmic that whole period. I always go back to the start of my guess, Seamus, where you grew up and how it all began? Well, I was born in East Belfast. It was known as Bala-McCarrot and Four Cartoom Street. And there was my mom and myself, a sister on two brothers, Megal and Sean, they were twins. So there was my mom and dad in four of us, and we lived over in an area called Samathus, Samathus Parish in East Belfast, sometimes known as Bala-McCarrot area. But there was about 3,500 people there living in there. They're all nationalists and surrounded by 30,000, 40,000 plus loyalist Protestants. It was always a sectarian place. It had a long history of sectarianism, as I've described in the book, way back into the 17th century. But when the Industrial Revolution came, the Horn and Whiff was built up around Saint Matthew's. At one time there was like 30,000 workers in Horn and Whiff, but there was very few Catholics. So it was a very sectarian area that I lived up in, completely surrounded by loyalists. And I used to wonder when I was getting chased, when I went to town with Moore Avenue Library and getting chased from it, and then when I went to Victoria Park and then getting chased from it, I was wondering why I was run. I was always getting chased by people and they were always shouting Finions. I didn't know what a Finion was, so we were talking when I was like 5 and 6. So I said to my mom, what's a Finion? And she says, well, you asked that for me. She says, I'm always getting called a Finion. Every time I go to the Temple of Moore Avenue Library or Victoria Park or the baths, it was just so claustrophobic living in that area. Because any road you went out of the four roads, you were getting chased. And that's from an early age. My father was a brass moulder. He was one of the very few token Catholics who had worked in the shipyard. He had a trade as a brass moulder, but he was paid off around 1965, about 1964. And he got a bit hard bitten over that, you know, because he lost his job. And he said to the management at Hardland Woof, I could retrain. And they weren't interested, they were just getting rid of him because of his religion. So he tried to join the place. My dad was six foot, I'm six foot two. My dad was six foot two. And he looked like a, he looked like a police officer. You know, he wore the long dexter coat. So the place, the plain clothes cops used to always nod to him because they thought he was a police mom, you know, and plain clothes. So he went anyway to join the, the police and the refused them. And when I came back on the forum, it says pure eyesight. My dad had perfect eyesight. So he said to my mom, that perfect eyesight. They have not made back over pure eyesight. And he says, it's not your eyesight. It's the problem. It's your religion. That's what my mom said. And he became a bit hard bitten over that, but he always taught us. So he always taught us the integrity on, you know, he taught us values, values of integrity, honor, faith in God and faith in country. And we always went to Mass Holy Communion. He was in the, he was in the St Matthew's church. And I mean, he brought me to Mass on three times on a Sunday. And I used to say that we've already been to Mass twice this morning. Why have we come back? He says all these masses are going to be built up for you and heaven. So, you know, so he's very devout Catholic and believed in his country, but he also believed in his God and he instilled in that. He instilled that in us. How was that then if family members are getting sacked because of religion and struggling to put food on the table? Did you see that from a young age? Does that make you angry that things are going on from a very young age or the oblivious to it? I was oblivious. I wasn't rationalizing it. I was just wondering why we weren't able to get a fish supper from the van or why we weren't able to get, you know, ice cream. Things like that. But there was poverty there like in the family, but then everyone was going through the same. And at that time, that state had been run from 1921. The Protestant state for Protestant people. So Catholics were just basically regarded as blacks living in the deep south. And they were just, they were regarded as just persons, you know, persona, non-grata. Just non-people. And to be honest, they weren't politicized. They weren't really well educated because it was denied them. So they didn't have real rational thought. My mom and dad used to just accept it. I used to be wondering like, and later on when I look back on it, why are they accepting this? But at that time it was like half a loaf of spatter than none. That was the old attitude at the time. You know, whatever you have, just make the best of it. So we didn't really want to rationalize why we were poor. Did anybody ever try and make a stand then? Or was it just like you say accepted? It was generally accepted. There was an attempt in 1956 by the IRA for a border campaign. It was codenamed Operation Harvest. It went on until 1963, but it didn't gain popular support. And it padded out. They, in the state, you know, the RUC, which was the political wing of the Unionist Party, they just came in and stamped it out on the Special Powers Act, which were so draconian, they were even, I mean, the clerk had actually said from South Africa, I wish I had the Special Powers Act to deal with these blacks in South Africa. I mean, that's how draconian, the Special Powers Act, was from 1921 and just kept getting renewed right up until 72 when Storm had collapsed and then was a direct rule. But from 21 to 72, they were using the Special Powers Act to keep us down. And even if you put a flag out, you're getting arrested. You weren't allowed, because they regarded that as a breach of the peace. So you weren't allowed to fly your national flag. It had to be a union flag. You weren't Irish. You were British. And then, as I say, when the IRA tried to break the chains in 1956 to 63, they were squashed and they didn't gain any real popular support anyway. That was the problem. Did you see many beatings when you were a kid? I thought people may be putting a tricolour out. Yeah, I remember around, it was 64 and me and my dad were up in Falls Park and we had to go back across the town, over the Queens Bridge, over the east from where I spell Fast East. And suddenly, sometimes, you would have went to the Falls Park. But coming down anyway, I'd demonstrate. I remember the police were bothering people with buttons, you know? And my dad was really angry. And I don't know why they were buttoning them. But they were getting hit over the head with sticks. The police were doing that, buttoning them. And apparently, it was over putting a tricolour in the Shinfian office. They were displaying it. And the police went in to take it out. And there was a rat. And it was known as the tricolour rat. And my dad, he came back and he was raging. You know what I'm saying? About the brutality of the police. He always instilled in us about this thing, about national identity. He says, if you haven't got a national identity and you haven't got a culture, then you're not worth living. You know? There's no pulse, dear life. You know? So he always instilled in us that passion for your country. To be proud of it, be patriotic. Not in a negative sense. Just be proud of where you're from. You're not British. He would tell us, me and still hasn't agreed, Michael and Sean, because they were younger than me. Since you're Irish. And you're actually living in an occupied area. I was aware of that from an early age. He used to bring us around to Melville, Johnny, in chemical street. And he was in the old IRA. And I always remember looking at the painting on the wall. And it was the ambush in Bel Niblah in August 1922 of Michael Collins. It had been shot during the old IRA campaign from 1919 to 22. But he was killed in Bel Niblah in August 1922. And I said to my uncle, Johnny, what is that? He says that's the ambush of Michael Collins during the Civil War in 1922. So there was always that. There was imagery around me. You know, paintings or a song or an indication where I'd come from. You're Irish. Could have never have moved? Area? We weren't... You know, he had lost his job. He was working as a labourer then in Towns End Street on a pittance. So he was right in that house. And he had no savings. There was no real social mobility then, you know? What were you like at school, Seamus? I liked school. I was in Samarthus Primary. And then I went to Synagosons secondary and excelled in history. I loved history and English language and English literature. That's where I got... That's my forte, history. Military history in particular. I was studying it. First World War, Second World War. We weren't really taught anything about Ireland. It was the kings and queens of England and Britain's history of Ireland. So there was no sense of nationalism or we were taught that the British were meant to be here and we weren't British citizens. And you know, that's the history they taught us. It was okay for the British to be here. It was just my dad telling me otherwise. He was just simply saying, don't be listening to that. You know, you're actually Irish. You're not British. But when we went to school, we were taught you're British citizens. To brainwash the kids to accept, maybe? Part of brainwashing. I don't believe in any sort of wars, but when you do look at the British history, they've invaded over 90% of the countries on this planet. There's a lot. They're a very powerful country. Was there any kids who was maybe reading that and believing in it and accepting it as you say? We'll see when you were kind of going into the history archives and going through the history books. Did you see certain patterns or did you start to understand? Okay, wait a minute. There's something not quite wrong here. I'm staying on Ireland. Why is it run by the British? Did you start questioning that? Well, it was in school or my history teacher, Mr. Kerry, he was more open about maybe third year. He was asking the class, what was your view on certain subjects? And I remember one guy says, why is Britain at Japan Ireland? And this is before the troubles, which came in 1969. And he said, I remember him saying, God give Ireland to the Irish and he give England to the English. So what's England doing at Japan Ireland? But it was skimmed over. But Mr. Kerry was always saying in history, try to articulate, try to find a rational. Just don't accept dates and figures and this is what happened. So he was more than to start questioning stuff. So that's what I started doing. And then it was about then, under Mr. Kerry, I would ask questions like, why are they here? And he was saying, well, they arrived in the 12th century and they've been here ever since. So what is the history of the IRA? When did they actually start? The IRA started in 1916. So way back over 100 years? Yeah, 1916. And they were formed out of the IRB. The Irish Republican Brotherhood. And it was at the GPO when the house of the Green, White and Orange flag, the IRB, the Irish volunteers became this amalgam, this amalgam became known as the Irish Republican Army, 1916 under the likes of Pierce. They already set us an army, 300 of them. They were part of that under James Connolly. But in general, it was the originally known as the Irish Republican Army. So it would go back to 1916. And then from that, you had the GPO, you had the Easter Raisin, which was, which was smudged and the leaders then executed. And then you had 1919, January 1919, the beginning of the the War of Independence, where Sinn Féin had actually won the elections in 1918, two years after the Easter Raisin. And then they basically set up Doilern and basically said they called them the British to withdraw. And because they had won as they seen it, in the vote of 1918, where the vast majority was a big swing towards Sinn Féin. And they were basically saying to the British to vacate. The British wouldn't vacate. So in January 1919, they said we're in a state of war now with Britain. So they had, the British government had their cutting edge known as the British Army. And the Irish by that stage, January 19 had their cutting edge known as the Irish Republican Army. And they went into the action. That's all I had to beg. That was the first incident in January 1919. So that went on for two and a half years. In January 1919, Lloyd George, the Prime Minister to the time, says very similar to today. History has a terrible habit of repeating itself. Patterns. So in January 1919, he asked this GOC of land forces, can we destroy it? Can we defeat the IRA in the field? So the period now is 10 Downing Street. That's January 1919. 1921. Two years into this war. And he says, give me another six months and I'll have them hammered. You won't have to negotiate with these people. I'll crush them. And by July, he hadn't crushed them. And with the black and tans causing more you know, burnings and carrying out atrocities. Churchill himself said it wasn't so much the IRA. It was the atrocities of the black and tans that brought us to the table and international pressure from America. Very similar to the war which was the later come here with the original IRA in the 70s. But so they ceded for peace. Lloyd George and then that ceasefire came in the effect in July 1921. And by December the 6th 1921 there was an Anglo-Irish treaty which basically partitioned the country. So the north six counties in the north were separated and they remained under British rule. And unfortunately for me and my family, we fell on the wrong side of the line. I was 18 at all. Kick started. Then he's got peace again. But then 50 years later we go forward to 1969. Trouble started again. How old were you? I was about 13. So you started you joined Irish Army at 15, is that correct? Well, I joined the the Navy which is the junior wing of the IRA in 1972. So I was 15 in 1972. And two years earlier I was 16 and that's when I first remember things happening. I was like 12 or 13. I remember looking outside the primary school window of the primary school. And I seen all these lorries appear. That's of course my first indication of the British Army arriving and there were all these trucks and they all started coming out of the window. But everybody was like, Jesus, this is something big. A whole convoy of British military which had never been seen before. So my brother, Michael and Sean both of them were in the jeeps and the Brits were showing them the rifles. But I never went near them. And my Aunt Vera, my own sister always said the reason why you didn't go near them was because your father, he had taught you that that's not your army. They're occupiers. That's not your army. So subconsciously I didn't go near them. But my dad had died in 1967 when I was 10. So he died of a brain hemorrhage. So there was just my mom left and the three boys and my sister. So they arrived anyway and everyone started giving them tea. And that was August 16, and they were known as a peacekeeping force. That's what we thought they were. And I remember the whole of short straw and all coming out with tea and buns and biscuits giving them. They were glad to see them because of the hated RUC which was the sectarian force. They were hated. They were known as SSRUC. So once the British army they came in as a peacekeeping force, like a UN peacekeeping force. So we thought, everyone thought good with their our saviours. But the following year June 1970 my brother Sean, he came in and he said to my mom this day, they're carrying boxes into the pub facing the Protestant pub facing the church on the Newton Arch Road. And my mom says, what are you talking about? She said, mom, I seen those loyalists carrying boxes in the pub. So she told me to go around and get me Uncle Jenny in Chemical Street, who was in the old area and he sort of, he looked after us after my dad died in 1970. Sorry, 1967. So this is three years later in 1970. And my Johnny called around and I had me out of the kitchen door and he says, Katelyn, keep the boys in the garland. He says there's going to be troubles, a couple of thousand loyalists on the front of the road. They're going to invade the area. There's only 3,500. It's a small enclave. We live directly behind the church. So we could hear the crowds gathering and she started panicking. He says, don't be worrying, Katelyn. He says, with guns and we're going to use them. The area will be defended. So the loyalists didn't realize that. They thought, sure, Catholics don't have guns. They just get baited and the RUC supports them. So you're totally vulnerable. So the saviors on that night, June the 27th 1970 didn't come in the form of the British Army. For me it came in the form of the provisional IRA and that's who defended the area. They were all in the church grounds and my uncle Johnny he was there that night and he says, he told my mom later that there's a couple of thousand of them we're all shouting, we're going to rape all them women and he says we're going to burn that church we're going to burn that school, we're going to burn that whole fucking area out and the RUC are going to support us they're going to help us and Johnny George Uncle Johnny George, he's seen them seen the RUC and the loyalists in the area the British Army were asked why did you pull out you had a little infantry he says, there was trouble elsewhere in the city I had to pull the troops out so we were left alone exposed and there was going to be a full front attack on that church in the area. So the only ones to defend this was the people themselves they didn't realise that the area had guns and the area everyone at that time was right on the wall the area, I ran away they were known as Cardly, the area because they didn't defend the previous year the legs were burned out of Bombay Street Farrington Gardens and things like that people were just getting burned out so people were going well the RUC don't support us the British Army doesn't look like they're supporting us and the area, I ran away it was all dobbed on the walls so this was going to be there the baptism of fire, the provisional IRA and they were all lying in the grounds anyway and they invaded and about 11 o'clock we were in the bed and I could see out onto the front of the road from the side of the church all your heard was bang bang bang bang bang bang bang bang that's the first time I ever heard shooting the three of us all went to the window and bang bang bang bang bang bang scurry and my mum came up a stairs and she says get onto the bed you know there's a real fear and myself, Sean, I got onto the bed and I went on, two by five that morning the gun battle just went on and on and on shouldn't then you start seeing flames coming from the front of the road and then I remember around five coming out from under the bed, went to the window seen the red glow in the night sky and I heard one I must have been one of the provisional IRA guys shouting if you come any near, use orange bastards I'll not be firing over your heads and there was people killed that night on both sides but they were staved off and the next morning when we went around the mosque at Samathis you couldn't go near the front of the road because it was all on fire and the gates had been knocked down and it just looked like a second world war something like a real just battle scene burnt out cars the bar across the street was on fire the Saxon's house it was on fire so we went in the side for a mosque but after the mosque we all started streaming home but we were all wondering who did that it wasn't the British army actually they pulled out who was that, it was a provisional IRA along with one of my relatives actually as well called the citizens defence a guy called Jimmy George and Johnny George who was my uncle family members were defending the area along with the provisional IRA under the likes of Billy McKee he was one of the founding members of them so it was just getting formed the IRA and they were moving in the defensive role that was their first role and we thought Jesus, they're our saviours so that was to me a stand that people were going to come in and shout how hard is that for a mother who's got three sons, the father's not there to protect, you're seeing bullets you're starting to see dead bodies how hard is that as a family unit to see that, especially at a loving because obviously when you talk as well there's obviously some pain behind your eyes a lot of people don't know the history of between the IRA and the British army it goes deep in it I don't even know if it'll ever pass it's okay for us in Scotland we're only a couple of hundred miles away but when you actually listen to the stories you realise how ruthless and how dark and how bad it was and this was only just a few years ago it's unbelievable to think that that was still going on it's modern history how hard is that though for a mother there must have been a lot of tears and worry for a mum who's got three sons how hard is that well my mum after was over Johnny came around to the house again and he says I don't think I could stick much more of this I need out and he says well Kathleen you've got us here we've staved them off he says I know but they're going to come back you know and so McCausens, Michael Kearney he was my surrogate dad he took over I was my dad's brother's son he came over and he says Kathleen maybe it's time do you really don't want to stay here he says look the edge of them no I want them out but she says well we'll try and get them out of the West Belfast so she thought by getting us out of there she would be getting from exactly from the framp on into the fire but she thought she was saving us by getting us out of that area that enclave and we ended up on the refugee huts on the Glen Road the following year and that was in March what was that like it was like a traveller the travellers ended up in them and it was really basic no heating just like a caravan you know and that's where we ended up but she felt at least safe she was attacking the kids but you've got to understand to James that we're living an abject poverty here because when my dad's dead there's no money at all we were taking handouts and somebody was calling to the house my dad's friend who was a Protestant businessman called Ernie Bernseys to come around and give him some money and then our sisters would come over and help out but she was like living on the real abject poverty you know so you joined at 15 that very young star young boy so how did that process happen did somebody approach you or did you just want to make a stand and try and join something well protect your family protect whatever it is you were thinking for well when my dad died in 67 I was at my dad's coffin and looking at him and my mum's sister and her mum was like hysterical and my mum says James is going to be the man of the house he's going to replace you that's what happened in those days you know the eldest son became the mum then I saw him streaming with tears that's right son you're going to be the man of the house aren't you I can do that I'm going to look after this family and that's what was in my mind and that's what I had been doing looking out for the two boys and my sister but there was a war now starting to do household chores in the middle of a war and internment came in 71 and that happened just getting my dad straight that was 1970 June 1970 the battle of St Matthews mum leaves the following year and that was March 71 and then we had internment in August and all hell broke loose and he says jesus mary and joseph I thought it got you out of the fire but yeah she got us out of the fire from the framp on into the fire so the whole west bell fast then was in an uproar gun battles riding and everything else we were stuck in a refugee hut on the middle of the road so the pivotal moment probably the first pivotal moment was the battle of St Matthews but I didn't get involved in anything because it was too busy looking after the family the following year was January 72 and that same month we got out of the refugee huts and we this family were leaving the Hummels they were called, they were living in 23 Glenvay Drive and they stayed facing the Glen Road in Lannadown and they left they were going to England because they had enough a lot of people were doing that they were just getting out and so my mum was out for the house and she had a squad in it it was illegal, you just went into the house and stayed there we moved out there in January 1972 so at the end of that month I came on the news we were all sitting watching TV and the reports were coming in from Derry, 14 13 people were shot dead and not so much my sister but me, Sean and Mick we were sitting watching that and we were at Antifa now there are people we weren't really brought up to be selfish see what happens to them, happens to me if you know what I mean so we took out personal those are our people they're getting murdered and my mum says that's enough she switched the TV off, she says go to your room and cool off the whole three days so we went upstairs and here's our Michael need to do something about that Sean said the same, here's me, I know but I was older, I said just calm down my mum was right, maybe you can't do anything maybe that's what we are we're just second class citizens, I have to live with here's what are you talking about you're going to have to do something there's murder in people you're just going to accept it so that's what, that was the reality of it you know so I remember Evan Cooper came on the news that night and that's always stuck with me what he said, he says I want to address the British Government now and I was up in the IRA and burned out but I remember the words I memorised them, he says something like that I want to address the British Government he says, you know what you've done, don't you you have just destroyed the civil rights movement and you've given the provisional IRA its greatest victory he says, tonight all over this city and beyond, young men, mere boys are lining up to join the IRA and you will reap a whirlwind but he's talking about me he's talking about me and so I made a choice try to keep the house together and but at the same time try to resolve the human rights issue, I thought I could do everything now you know I thought I was super human I sound like my kids are 12 man I try and protect him as much as I can even the slightest little thing I get, you worry over but I could never imagine them looking out the window and seeing gunshots and houses and fire and tanks driving by that it's mad to think that kids actually went through that and kids as young as 15 want to join and make a stand to try and fight for their own beliefs and believing that Ireland should be Ireland and rightly so I believe that all countries should be independent now I think that everybody should try and make a stand and try and make each country flourish it's mad to think that some countries are still ruled but that is where it is and I'm not a politician I don't know all the answers but for me personally same as Scotland I love about independence and I believe the country could thrive anyway with independence but for yourself at 15 how did you then join what's the procedure to do that well it takes you three or four months because you have to go through the vetting process but I made a conscious decision it wasn't an adventure and I knew what I was doing and I knew what my dad had said I knew that right is right and wrong is wrong it's quite simple and I felt what I'm going to do I'm going to I'm actually going to save my people that's what I'm going to do because they can't do it themselves I'm going to do it for them that was a mission that was my mission who was leading it then who did you have to go to the chief of staff at that time was and then you had other guys around him like that then you had the army council brigade battalion the company so I approached the company level that was F company in that area first battalion and they said because you're 15 we wouldn't accept you in the army but you can go into the junior wing which is called Nafi and Aaron you don't get accepted in the army until you're 18 some got in 17 a couple of my mates got in 17 but in general they wouldn't accept you until you're 18 and again they're not interested in media they're not interested in media over people they're not interested in people who are singing blooming songs and getting drunk they're not interested in idiots they're interested in soldiers, potential soldiers who are going to fight a war so that's the fighting process comes in and so but the best soldiers always came from the Nafi and Aaron as the war later approved because that was the 27 year war believe it or not James that went on a long time started in January 1970 the provisional IRA military campaign and it ended in July 1997 that's 27 years that's a long war the British army longest war in its history and for you needed dedication you needed commitment you needed a high caliber of troop to do that and I was one of them and there was people around me who were of the same caliber and the idiots they were just shredded out, weeded out and but approached the OC of F Company someone told me why didn't you go up north such and such so I just said is there any possibility of joining the IRA? no you're only 15 but if you want to join the family that's easier to get into it's like a boy scout but they'll train you they'll train you taking the oath to the Irish Republic and I actually meant that seeing that oath it was to defend the Irish Republic and against foreign enemies the best against foreign enemies and it was to establish a republic for the British to vacate Ireland so I remember the oath anyway and I said to myself I'm going to stand by that oath it was like getting more right whatever devoting your life basically to die for something that you truly believe in what was the training like because when I had Sam Muller on who I've got a lot of respect for that Sam was talking about it's not a case of training you're forced to hate someone, you're educated on what you're doing and it becomes more political that you it was not just a case of there's a gun going out and fighting and shooting anybody that's that's British how's the process of that going through that are you educated on what you're doing that is mental it's hard to even be accepting a 15 year old and they'd be going to go through junior ranks or whatever to then becoming but for a 15 year old what was the what did you have to go through to then go through the training progress you had to go through a few security lectures and then they give you a bit of a history of the the island colonisation from the 12th century up brief but basically this is where we are that's the enemy, that's a clear enemy it's the British, the loyalists are not your enemy we're Republicans so I've never been sectarian and the people who were in the army with me were not sectarian so you were politicised even at an early age I was getting taught about separatism, republicanism, nationalism socialism and you weren't allowed to go near guns but you were given gun lectures yes but you weren't put out on operations you shadowed the gun crews so I went out with a guy called he was, I shadowed him he was in the IRA he died of cancer there about 3 years ago so he would have said to me you'll shadow me and that's all I did all I did was carry his weapons like an ormalite, carbine, whatever he was carrying on that night and I would go to the firing point and he would say right give me the ormalite and I would give him an open fire so things like that but you weren't actually firing weapons you were getting trained up in them as I say the best troops from the IRA came through the Fena a lot of them came from the 15 year olds from an early age they were trained up how hard does that because Catholics and Protestants used to speak before and when it starts getting divided when you start getting the borders and you get barriers put up how hard does that just to totally disconnect the strange you've been with for 10-15 years as a kid to then were you told not to speak to them again? no, well that's a strange comment because I remember my mum always saying when we were in the Pram so this was before even the war started she would have gone up a new large road which was all Protestant and she would go to the baker the butcher, the candlestick maker all these different little shops and they were all saying that Jesus the Catholic the twins are looking great and then you go into the get your hair cut and they're all good but she came on the 12th of July and my mum always said stop talking to you she always noticed that she was always there, no had sectarianism and even if it was passive it was always there it was always bubbling onto the surface because this was an artificial state set up for a Protestant people, a Protestant government for Protestant people we were never welcome and we were tolerated but never welcome it's mad to think even here that we've got Celtic Rangers and the hatred between both clubs but when you actually break it down there's not a lot of people who actually know the history people are just jumping on board like you say when people want to join IRA that we doubt that people are just there for a party or do whatever but we actually understand what the fuck people went through the destruction, the pain of losing loved ones and both sides have done a lot of destruction we have to be honest here the history of it, where it started how it started, who's behind it it goes deep and that's why I laugh at Celtic Rangers because I have felt it with family members I've got family on both sides we can't hold grudges and things get says in the hatred even when the football's one that there's pure hatred there but a lot of people with the hatred don't understand what they're actually hating on because you're from Glasgow why are you getting involved in whatever something else that's not really irrelevant to you I don't know where that's conditioning we've raised with the hatred on the Catholic and Protestant side but I don't think a lot of people actually understand what they're hating on which is weird but you're then going shadowing someone, shooting guns when did you end up being involved at what age? I was just turned 18 I was still a fucking boy shame I was still a kid and I had to keep trying because it was knocked back three or four times why? I think the guy in particular was going there's an education in you you could be a history teacher you could do so much you think I want to be a soldier and it was this particular guy who was stopping me he was the recruiting officer he knew me and my family so your dad's dead took after your mum you know what I mean but I kept coming back as a young naive kid probably your dad in your mind as well you feel as if you're doing the right thing for the right reasons which is understandable as well people can understand that when you start to deal with a history lesson for people to understand what went on why it went on and why people are fighting for a certain cause this is what it's all about to try and educate people when you're 18 then you've caught it in your mind that you want to fight for a cause try and protect the people that you love how hard is it if you've got friends who join and see them getting killed was there ever a moment where they think ok this maybe a bit too much I could lose my life as a young kid or was that making even more angry to then protect the people that you love by joining the IRA coincidentally the first night I joined the fair in May 1972 I was out on one of those patrols and basically was at the top on the Glen Road and this guy this car came down the Glen Road and I remember it was a yellow car as yellow as your t-shirt stuck out you know and here's my bloody yellow car in grey West Belfast and I remember the yellow car looking at it and it was just from me to you and the back window was down and there was a guy with black greasy hair but he was carrying a sub machine gun he opened fire and a big lick of yellow flash hit me there and I pissed myself and all I heard was da da da da da da da but it was like point blank variance he was firing but he was firing at another guy and me there was two of us and I was hit there and there and I jumped over two fences and I busted through the back door and they were all watching the western, John Williams and him whoring the kids and I said I've been shot I'm only 15, I'm shot and she says they had the TV up loud, they didn't hear the shoot they didn't hear it, there were three words up and I said I've been shot and she turned the TV off and she said what happened, here's me some car shot me so anyway the IRA guy came and he said I'll take him, come on you and me and he bondaged me up stuck me and bondaged me up and he had tweezers and took the lead out of my hand and I was bleeding like so he bondaged me up and he says that's your baptism of fire I remember him saying that I was only 15 and he says I take it you want to resign do you, your first night it was May 72, here's me no, here it is I says what about the IRA guy he says we're going to get him now, come on I remember he went in and this guy was propped up against the wall with his chin on his chest and a sea of deep red blood all around him moving slowly along the kitchen floor we're getting wider and he says is he dead and he says hey, and he just he just woke up and he says to me what happened there, here's me some guy in a yellow car open fire he says I didn't see that happening I didn't see that but he was bodily injured like he was worse than me but they got him down south 15 man shot so see when you join IRA what do you do then when you join IRA once you go through three security lectures and there was three of us there was these three meetings and we basically explained it in more detail now this is not the FINA this is not the FINA this is active service but there again you can join intelligence or you can join administration known as the auxiliary IRA which is like they would like place the area because the RUC were never accepted so they would place the area against common criminals and things like that so you could join the auxiliary IRA or you could join the intelligence department or then the most lethal one would be the active service so I chose active service but I remember the intelligence guy saying to me why do you and I want to join intelligence for is there something wrong with us I said no there's nothing wrong with you it's just I don't think I can cut out for that so he was trying to recruit me into the intelligence department of the IRA and I was just thought no I think the active service would be where I belong because I see myself as a soldier and I did so there's no point joining an army to push a pen that was my own attitude but other guys did join intelligence because they weren't prepared to pick up the gun it's safer and they felt they were playing their part and it's true everyone has their own rule to play so I just felt I could do this and he says well it means killing people that's what it means if you join active service that's what it means you're going to inflict pain and you're going to have to endure it and you'll probably get about a six month life life span and at the end of that six month life span you'll go down in the asymmetry and or else you go to prison for a long time so that was explained to us and the third guy says I don't think this is for me he got up and walked out no he got the reality check but you can understand that as well if people want to play that part then they'll join a safer place to sail I'm still here, I'm still doing my part but I'm not willing to give up my life so what parts did each player so the intelligence, what would you have to do if you were doing the intelligence the active service units would rely on intelligence for targets so the intelligence would be getting in the areas you know, when patrols go in and out areas for commercial bombing targets, go into town, check it out and then there would be some plan there's your target and literally the intelligence fell on your table and if you were the OC, I later became OC but at that time it was just joined and there you go there's your montage and that would be your officer commanding would say right target today is and that's where you are so everyone had, it was all a deep part maplest as well it was very well organized it was always on the need to know basis the driver didn't know what the shooter was going to do the driver was just told to bring to go to the target the shooter knew the target but not necessarily the driver the driver was just told to go to the target so it was all on the need to know basis so if you were caught there was only limited amount of information you could give why is that because there was maybe snatches in and nobody trusted nobody trusted anybody which is the right thing to do so it was all need to know basis and if you're arrested then the gear had to be moved and even if you'd done 3 days in Castle Ray the weapons dumps would be moved in case you broke in Castle Ray there's weapons and such and the Brits went to there they moved them, that's generally what did happen so if you were an active member then what did you have to do? well if you're an active member I've been involved in shooting attacks on the British Army RUC and also involved in commercial bombing things like that that's the type of thing you'd have to do if you're an active service so the other two we decided to go ahead one pulled out so you went through 3 security lectures and then we had already been trained 2 of us had already come through FINA we already knew weapons training we had already been to the training camp I had to dismantle the legs of the the army, AR-180 and AR-15 Jungle Garden M1 Caravan Walter P-38 we had a fair knowledge over those 3 or 4 years you had already you were already half way there the only thing that wouldn't let you do when you were in the FINA is actually open fire so there was no longer shadowing when you came in 18, you were now the gunman what was it like getting sent out in your first mission? well I always carried this cross and it was that height it was Madal Claude Cross, I was caught with it but I always carried that I always felt it will protect me and some of the lads laughing what are you you are like an evangelical Christian I just felt protected I believed in God I believed in spiritual forces but I didn't think God was going to say it's okay to kill people me and him probably disagreed on that but I would always like to thank Jesus you probably understand don't you? was that for an Irish man to be killing another Irish man just because of certain beliefs and that's the tragedy of it I think it diminishes everyone I think it diminishes the human being you know but you have to always stay within the military context because we all said that all our unit well the ones who were the active service people like myself we always felt do you think there's a life after starting we all said no we'll not be around we'll do this, we'll free our people but we'll never really have a normal life and as a matter of fact we don't really deserve it that's how I felt at times you know it's hard to it's probably a subject that's never really been touched on ever you know you look at people losing their lives and the whole diminishing the fact of it you know trains you and trains you from actually trains the humanity out of you so you become this hardened cold-hearted steel-willed soldier you drain out all emotion you have to if you're going to survive if you're going to get through this you're going to military contacts do you think it kills your soul yeah I think it does there's no glory in it there's no there's no flurry speeches here but once I'm inside the military contacts I always always even today I'm a soldier and some people say to me well you keep saying that I'm a soldier there's civilians they don't understand I have to stay within that military context and one guy said let me see if we move out of that then maybe we'll go and hang yourself because what was it all about one Irishman killing another one or you know whatever in that war so you always have to stay within the context of it was a war you know when I study military history you know soldiers who come back from Afghanistan Iraq and they all have that sort of connection where they always have to always help for heroes for example that's the military contacts again they've been injured, bodily injured psychological injuries with that comradeship with that brotherhood with themselves not with their wives with their brothers and arms and I sort of I would understand that I would have an affinity to that it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong or the health gone to the IRA we're all wrong no I'm just talking if it's possible to be impartial and talk about soldiering that there's always that human cost the pay and that everybody sort of understands it is that why you keep that in that very small box that way of thinking because when you actually come out that and look at the bigger picture you'll start to feel the pain yeah it's possible, it's a buffer it does caution it it cautions the pain and there's no glory in it there's no, that's the thing I saw about this I don't feel anyone should give me a pat on the back I don't really want you to pat me on the back I don't feel that way what age did you go to prison cause you got 14 years I got 14 years, yeah I actually ended up as an officer commanding of F company and I worked in conjunction with a good friend of mine called Brent McCalligan and he was the battalion double low, double low was an operations officer and he he was probably one of my early mentors he was only a couple of years older than me but he was married with two children and I remember having this conversation with him we came out of one of the battalion call houses this day he was battalion double low operations officer I was OC of a company of 14 men and 4 women, there's 18 of them commander them and you remember him saying to me this war this war could go on for another 10 years it looks like it's going to be a long war it's not going to be over soon and he says we're just going to be expendable do you realize that, here's me, what do you mean he says like you're either going to get killed here do you sense that, here's me I tell you or you're going to prison it could be the other way around, we were best friends I get killed or go to prison but one way or the other we're expendable and we will be replaced and the war will continue and we'll be forgotten about we're just a little cog on a big wheel so we think we're important but we're not really and I always remember that but he was shot dead in April April 23rd, 1977 by undercover soldiers and I was in the chrome at the time and I cried my eyes out for him in the chrome I had to get out of the cell and do the ablutions in the toilet area and cried like a baby and I'd never cried like that since my dad died in 1967 and I always remember him saying we're going to be I always felt guilty about that that he lived sorry I lived and he died why because he was more able to do kids I was single I remember calling to the house I was always looking at those two kids Paul and Bren and there were toddlers or like two and I'm going how are you going to survive without him and then this wife came up to see me and the chrome on the road she was like what am I going to do to him this now he's going to pray for you that's all I could say it was just so heart broken and that was the horrors of war if you know what I mean the destruction it causes so when you got your 14 what did you get your 14 stretch for intelligence had said that there was a UDR soldier on the bridge at Finnecke and he goes to the local it was an odd light factory a car factory but he's on uniform he's stopping vehicles on the bridge at Finnecke and he knew about that and then also got his name, registration number and things like that so um I was getting tired by then I was getting tired I worked with you I was just going 20 for five years I was just educating misery, pain, learning to try and be stone cold and you don't have any feelings or emotions even to be tired at the age of 20s it's kind of sad and I was actually saying I had actually said I had actually been under the bridge the first time and the battalion officer said he'd be coming onto the bridge to go to the odd light and it'll be at a clock beyond the bridge and make sure he's dead and here's me, he's armed I'm armed, somebody's going to be dead there in the UDR they were always armed here's me and if he's carrying civilians I'm not shooting civilians no just get on with it get up behind you and we'll have an hour or one before you after that here's me, I hope I get shot as I have felt I hope I get killed or I hope I get arrested I'm tired and in between time my mom was getting suspicious and the door was getting kicked in three o'clock in the morning I was doing three days in Council Ray and I went I don't think I can keep this mayhem going for much longer and I wanted it out and couldn't, didn't know how to get out of it and and I was never going to leave because I'd given up but I was just tired, fatigued and back down on the 28th of January same place and I gave it an extra five minutes deliberately I shouldn't have, I knew I shouldn't have he didn't show up and I gave it an extra five minutes and the guys were going what's this, should we not be leaving here again in a couple of minutes, here's my hope I get caught and deep down I'm a subconscious I just said I don't really want to come back down here again so I gave it that extra few minutes and they arrived or you see, they opened fire and fought and the driver I was in charge and he says, what'll I do I just cry through the checkpoint, just ram it and we're dead, we're rammed in it way up the Andersen's town road with a mail away and an armored vehicle rammed this, an armored vehicle or you see the armored vehicle Christ in the side of a synagnosis chapel the door flew off it wants to say door flew off I ran out, the door just actually fell off the van I ran up the side of the church them two were caught but I had a Webley 45 a big gun and I dropped it and ran up the side of the church and the man with the rifle ran after me and he shot at the halter right fire and I stopped and I said, I'm going to run on just to help it and he stopped and he went down on the and I was going to run on and he said, go on go on, go on and I just, nah he said get your hands up, let's march back to the van he threw me in the back of the van the first thing I looked at was the Andersen's town road and I went, I've never seen you again for a long time I've never seen that and I went, I'm glad and the minute I said I'm glad he put his, they already seen me put his jackpot right on my neck and pushed it down on the back of my neck here's me and glad Oh, before you got your 14, see me you're a Nairie how paranoid can you be because I'd imagine your life's in danger 24-7 like, did you ever sleep or were you always on edge or were you always on working 24-7 like, do you get days off, like how does it work, like has it been a soldier then like the paranoia and life in danger going to prison to then try and keep yourself alive to then, how do you switch off like, when you're in that that's the problem, there's no switching off James? Never, no days off and that's why it becomes so it grinds you down you know, from a psychological point of view there's just a whole grinding down where you don't get R and R he used to think, he's the British Army won't do four months tour duty then they go home in Dinglin, we weren't going home you know, this was just constant the regiment came in, I had a deal with the 45 Marine Commando so they would come into the bar and their intelligence officer, he was known as Jeff he would say hi, are you Seamus? not too bad so um how's the provisional IRA unit going, everybody happy? uh-huh sure, you know, that's the way they were talking but then he brings another regiment in it was the Queen's own and his nickname the intelligence officer, we called him Jasper so he comes in and Jeff from the 45 Marine Commando says to Jasper from the new regiment coming in, four months tour duty, Jasper this is Seamus, he's always say if F company First Battalion, Belfast Brigade they call themselves O'Gleaner Huron which is provisional IRA and Jasper says to me hi, are you Seamus? maybe we'll meet on the streets, yeah? here's me, you never know, you could be lucky this was on a pub could you relax on a pub though? why did they not just put one in your head? was that not could they just walk up and pull the trigger? it had to be somebody out on a mission when he was wanting you to run that's okay, kill you so he was wanting to do that so he could kill you yes, he could shoot if I ran on so if you had that bullet in the back of the head it would gun the review and he would potentially be at a court or was it just so run by the British that they're getting away with killing innocent people if you know what I mean could he have just shot you if you were standing looking at him no, he wouldn't have done that before you went to prison when you got chased and you were thinking about running but he got down on one knee waiting for you to run, see if he'd just killed you if you never ran, would that have been investigated? he thought it'd just been a case of nah, he was trying to escape I think they needed some type of a semblance of an excuse you know, you just shot him well I shot at a halt order but he just ran on, shot him dead he deserved that you had to give a bit of a reason so it wasn't people knew you were a Nairi but they couldn't just walk up and kill you but I remember getting stopped one time there was two of us, we were both IRA we were transporting the weapon and when we got there we left the weapon, but on the way back we were stopped by the Marines and Yaman says, yous are both F company provisional IRA and he says that's what you say but we had just left the weapon off do you know what it is boys? see all this kid gloves he says what the government should be doing is take the kid gloves off it means I could shoot the two of yous dead now and we'll get it all over with so I can return to England so they were held back to a certain degree yes, they weren't allowed to run rat who had the most rifles? the British or the Irish? the British had more firepower up until the good old year of 1987 but we'll come to that later so you get a full team strike so what is it you were actually charged with? charged with conspiracy and murder of the security forces and membership of the provisional IRA and you get sent to Lonkesh? well I spent time on five days in Castleray and it was bait we were told active service, if you're caught on active service rear handed they'll not beat you so I wasn't expecting to get baited in Castleray so when the beating started I was going Jesus I got that wrong and buggering agents were telling me you don't get baited, your mum was kicking me in the balls slapping me, punching I was going Jesus I actually felt like saying my recruiting officer told me that if I ain't caught right handed you're not allowed to do that did I get you a free pass not a free beat? so that's when the madness really started because in your book it's quite dark what happened then so you get five days and that five days did you ever try and get anybody coming forward to try and make you turn queens or make you go against your... never they just threatened me that they would shoot me and leave me on the shingle road one time during that five days but they weren't asking to recruit so when did you go to the H Block after the five days? I went the Krumman Road and then I went there in January the 20th, 1977 and then in February went the Krumman Road jail same way and then in June in 77 moved to the H Block and that's one of the first Matt Bobby Sons and Kevin Lynch and Tom McElwee they all later died on the hunger strike there's water there as well so what was that experience going into the H Block for the first time did you know about it before you get sent there? we were just told very little that they're building eight concrete H Blocks at a million pound a piece but don't know why they're doing that but didn't realize it was part of an overall military strategy you know, of ulcerization, normalization criminalization we weren't really taught any of that we were just told that they think they're gonna try to make it wear a uniform that said it was quite basic and we'll just resist just say no so that's all we were taught we were only told that gonna try and put you on the uniform just say no and it was so far up the road anyway we weren't really thinking about it a few months left in the Krum and well February, March, April, May and then June went to the the H Blocks we're still on the mount June, July, August, September then on October 5th, October gets sentenced refused to recognize the court 10 years imprisonment for that and then sent to the the Blocks then as a sentence prisoner so as a sentence prisoner October the 5th, 77 walked into the lands then and that's when the whole nightmare started because when we came down I seen the blue towels flopping in the wind in H5 I was anyway, some other would have been in that that way I was wondering why they were putting all the blue towels out there all flopping in the wind what's that and they were drying their towels but I didn't know we'd just seen blue towels and then went into the circle and there was a white shirt called Mr. McCarkey and he says welcome to H Block 5 and he says right boys there was three of us the two guys, myself and the other two guys who were caught with me at that time and we just said we said we're the uniform and go to work and call me sir and I said no I'm not calling you sir and so you got to remember we all seen ourselves as soldiers regardless of propaganda propaganda meant nothing to us, the media BBC really Ulster what they said, we disregard all them that's what we thought of ourselves the way we carried ourselves it was our vision of life that theirs so we were fighting the war, we were soldiers but we had already come through from Vienna at 15 and for him to say and I start calling me sir and now you're a common criminal and wear the uniform and you're going to do present work, I went no well no, did you say no Kearney? I said yeah and the screw you had a button that's the first time I started seeing violence from prison officers you didn't really see that in the crime at all that I seen I didn't see any of that but he drew this button with a little aggressive attitude and McGarney pushed him back and said don't use that button on him don't touch that prisoner he says he's only human he can be broken and he says you're going to wear this uniform no, strip I'll take everything off and put it in a brown bag so it was completely naked underwear and everything and then I had to go in and see the governor the governor was called Mr. Irwin we called him hurry feet because he wore desert boots so we called him hurry feet everybody had a nickname we ended up with nicknames prison officers ended up with nicknames but hurry feet are Mr. Irwin says Kearney, do you know where you are? I says long cash, he says no you're in the HMP me is cellular he says you're in H5 it's an unconformant block so you're in the NCP he says what do you get? what would you get? I says conspiracy to murder and member of the security forces he says well there's no soldiers in here only soldiers of the British army they're patacking the perimeter of the camp and so you're going to be a common criminal and that's totally alien to my sake but I'm not, I'm a soldier huh? you're a soldier? I said I'm a soldier of Ireland well there's no soldiers here so you're a criminal are you prepared to wear the uniform? no you're not prepared to go to work? no are you going to call Mr. Macaulay sir? no he says we're going to award you we're very Germanic everything was documented everything was German efficiency I used to call it and he says we're going to award you a loss of all privileges all handicrafts and that includes fresh air you'll be locked in a cell 24 hours a day you're not getting out and you'll be naked and you'll be put on a number one starvation diet how long do you think you could do that? do you think you could do 14 years like that? here's my I never really thought about it but I'm only realizing the reality of it now because we're not being we're not pulled this in the crumb it was very much an odd hack it was an awful analysis just make that subject go along improvise under those conditions easy easy size as I'll have a go at it it's fucking madness to mind to try and make a stand and not break how hard does that even see when he's saying that to you even though you're trying to be staunch what are you really thinking? you're thinking fuck that this is going to be tough the only thing I was thinking was I don't think I can do without that bread I need the answer I love my food I was just going don't fuck kids, struggle I was saying no please cover don't go near the starvation don't be putting me on that but I had to put the straight face on I said I'll have a go at that so you ended up locked up and when the cell door closed that was on the 5th of October 77, naked so if you imagine that James if I locked you into my garden shed at the bottom of the garden naked locked you in that garden shed for 4 years in 10 days do you think you'd be sane at the end of it? nah one day man I've done a few weekendos in Glasgow man I've been insane after 3 days I've been fed with closing a fucking blanket it's obviously for the mind that I don't know what's on me I think when people used to get captured they used to drop water at the top of their head and it was only for a week just would have dropped water on their head that used to drive them insane so being stuck in there with no food then blanket and fucking all grey military board wire black crew if your black crews would rest on the razor wire you would just stir it through the window with the black crews on the razor wire so one day led to another so I was locked in a cell like that from the 5th of October 77 locked in and then I got out again on the 15th of October 1981 and that was 4 years in 10 days I was kept like that so seeing the days how hard is it not to break but do they just try and break you every single day no there is they would get fed up down it and they were the ones that became the alcoholics not us they were trying so hard for 4 years that we a guy next door to me Brandon McClaren he says I think we have reached the stage that for them they have tried so hard to break us in the field it is like chewing on a brick all they are doing is breaking older teeth but they are not breaking the brick we are the brick and that is the phenomenal thing about this it is quite extraordinary I actually surprised myself I look back in that period and I don't actually identify that person who I was I have lived 2 or 3 lives that person he is a bit alien to me that person you know who did that I actually said to that person Jesus head boy you done well 4 years and 10 days and you didn't break wow you really did take that oath of allegiance to the Irish Republic and you meant it and that is what drove us a common criminal wouldn't be able to do that you need to have a belief to sustain yourself and such those adverse conditions if you know what I mean it is something to fight for it is a great cause what is the point day in and day out summer came and autumn winter came following year was spring we were still there what was the daily routine like 7 o'clock in the morning they would come in off nightgarden start rattling the green cell doors they were hitting the buttons just for badness cause then the nightguard was leaving so he came in at 7 battered you up the cell doors you weren't going anywhere and then they would come around the breakfast and about 8 usually porridge or cornflakes the criminal or at least would hunt them on a trolley and you weren't leaving your cell and then come back and got the dishes so then 12 o'clock you got your razor blade mate a couple of chips then 12 o'clock they went on their lack of they went on their liquid launch to the social club and stayed the camp this is a huge camp by the way this is a vast camp there's thousands in it so they come back at 2 do a head count and then you get up cause they're back and you start walking up and down the cell up and down do you ever watch a poppy on up and down I had seen that Steve McQueen 73 and I started replicating what he was doing Steve McQueen kept walking up and down up and down and I started doing the same get your nose into the wall make use of every space of the cell up and down all day and then that would be you until you're tired again and half four to half five they went on another lock up you got your tea around then which would have been maybe a pasty or some peas that was it until the next day 7 o'clock after the waking and then things got worse as the protest continued we were lucky and I was lucky because in that was October 7th the following year in the January 7th Brenton Hughes arrived on the way and he was a bit of a legend even in the camp he was the camp bossy, I had never met him but he was in the cages he lost his status he had a row or a fraca and he lost his status and he sent them down in two anyway he had five and he ended up in the next cell to me and he was known as the dark because he looked like a Mexican you know there's a photograph of him in the book there he just looked like a foreigner and Brenton, I don't know if many people know us but the one who started the hunger strike we see not the man behind it a lot of people think it was Bobby Sands but it was actually Brenton, was that correct? I read that in your book it doesn't get the recognition that he deserves I think he became disillusioned no later life and he fell out with the Republican movement that's what happened and he became disillusioned and that's what happened in every war you know, he reminded me of a guy called Arajes in Clint Eastwood's film Flags of our Fathers he was played by Adam Peach and Arajes became disillusioned and it was sad to see the downfall of a great man and he didn't become part of the group anymore but with Brenton he became disillusioned and later life I used to call down to his flat and he was sitting there on his own and I would ask him and what exactly was the matter, what was the problem and he just said to me one time a pretty hard light I remember him saying to me he says I always say myself as your father and you are my children and I lost ten of my children and I remember grabbing this coat and I said that's exactly how we felt we were your children he says do you see the pressure that's under 300 men doing that talking at my coat do you see the pressure he says that's a lot of responsibility she was and I let ten of my children die do you think that's what broke him then along with everything else that went in the daily routine so when he's done the protest how many people were involved in the protest for change in the H blocks 840 and it was over 800 so they walked away through a lot of them but there was a hard cadre left I was one of them I'm proud to say but yes they were breaking people can you understand that as well though of course if someone is broken would you distance yourself from them as you feel as if they were failing for what you were standing for or could you see in there that okay I understand outside maybe you want to visit was that you weren't just pushed aside that you broke from command or that everybody was standing together because if everybody stands together then I believe you can create change if everybody breaks then there's no change because the H blocks is what changed the game what they've done in that hunger straight is what changed do you believe that yourself I think so yeah I'd like to ask you a question someone out there said I have questions you have questions everybody's got questions what's happened today you think started back then I think for the H blocks I think with the hunger straight Bobby Sands and over 100,000 people I think what happened in there is to understand that the Irish couldn't be broken and that's when as time went on then obviously the peace agreement the good Friday agreement I think then is what people know is what was going on I think that's what gave the attention and it probably needed to try for people to come and try and create change but I don't know all the political sides of it I'm not Irish so but just from reading the books and watching the films you see oh wait a minute that's what I know Ireland or as Bobby Sands and going through the hunger straight and the change that could then created for the mass attention to then for Ireland being at peace just now that I believe it all started in the H blocks listen there's always stepping stones to get to the Irish but I think that was the main catalyst where people realise that these men ain't breaking and they're going to keep standing and keep fighting until something is resolved and I believe that's for my opinion is where it started there was also we were special prisoners as well they said we were criminals but we had come through special courts special one jury you know there was no juries it was just a judge delivering the verdict on us and they were now in special prisons so it's not a case where well sure you went through due process but didn't they had set up basically batter him force him to sign a statement and bring him in front of a judge and the judge will decide and it was just rubber stamped so it was like a conveyor belt if you know what I mean and that was known as criminalisation so they wanted to criminalise the struggle to say these aren't soldiers these are criminals and people like myself the 300 of us says no we're not so your protest what was your protest to stand for you didn't want to wear uniform yeah you wanted to be it was basically known as the first and parcel so what was the five demands the right not to wear a prison uniform then the right not to do prison work partial a week restoration of lost remission and then free association interwing association which they wouldn't allow you know with our other comrades the far wings so it's free association they call it we call it and then restoration of lost remission I lost four years on remission so I was wanting that four back at the end of the protest did you ever get a visit while doing the first year not first year we didn't take a visit no but it was the dark Brent and Q's decided to start he says with three options here and that was in February 78 when he arrived he says I love you being here here's from last October here's Jesus are you okay can you survive that seriously so far so good yeah I'm trying I'll just take it you know with that old saying one day at a time sweet Jesus one day at a time sweet Jesus so he says Jesus that's quite amazing you know so little did I know it was going to actually end up for four years like that but so he says with three options one to stay where we are remain status quo stay on a blanket protest refusing to wear the uniform doesn't look like we're going anywhere here option two would be to go into the system and work in behind enemy lines as he called it born the workshops go go hand to hand fighting with the screws and analogous cause cause the whole camp turn it into a fucking fireball burn the place down or three form this is his words he was the architect of this on the watch protest that was unheard of nobody knew what that was he pioneered that Brent and Q's and he says what would that entail because that was an excel to him well I was thinking where you refuse to watch and you're going to have to start taking visits because the communications out here to find out what you know people need to know what's going on in here you know so you need to start taking visits to set up communication system with the outside world and then of course um uh try to highlight the plight of these of the of the black and male by refusing to watch and we were already getting harassed anyway and the way out to the ablutions so the toilet areas but he says we stop all that and uh we exploit it we exploit the fact that they're and used and they're involved in patio harassment them and I believe the sales we'll exploit that by bragging all around us and that'll increase morale they did so that happened to mark we went to the vote and none of the lads were prepared to wear the uniform the vote came back we are not prepared to use were a criminal uniform we are not prepared even to go into the workshops so he was he says they're going for the the option of uh escalating the protest and that happened in March 1970 and brayden q's was uh behind that bobby sans became his PRO so it was actually brayden q's to command he came down to command around fabric 70 and he was ROC right through the all 78 all 79 all of yerry right up until the 27th of October 1980 so fundamentally he was the leader of the black amount brayden q's and how easier is that when you've got some that's so solid and it seems quite intelligent to then putting these things together to then planning that is that of war and it seems to be bang on like to try and come up with strategies like a chess game yeah that's exactly right so why is his name not as out there as bobby sans um he didn't die the main reason yeah if he had a died on the first hunger strike he led the first hunger strike on the 27th of October 1980 but um in all honesty and if we're going to be open and frank about it and I always like to call a spade a spade I'm not gonna if you ask me a question I'll try and give you a comprehensive answer as truthful as I can without embarrassing people but um I think uh he was too too compassionate we loved him and he loved us it was a father-children relationship but he took things very personal and maybe he actually said that to me one time after we got out years later he says I took it personal because I know you did he says that I wasn't I wasn't cold-hearted and clinical when it came to that hunger strike you know and um but he uh he didn't tell me the full story anyway but what I've heard and what I've tried to piece together was he tried to see if Sean McKenna's life who's he? he was one of the hunger strikers he was one of the seven and towards the end it ended it started on the 27th of October 1980 and it ended on the 18th of December 1980 one of the reasons why it ended was among other things you know I'm not full authority on what happened because the dark wouldn't tell me the full he says are you reading the history books? but it was such a complex issue where Sean McKenna had asked him I don't want to die did Sean mean that? I don't know but he was on a hunger strike for 50 odd days so lots of things can happen to you in the body in the mind people can say things then retract them but he said to Sean you won't have to I'll not let you die he promised Sean he wouldn't let him die some people thought well he should have just let Sean McKenna die but it wasn't in his nature and people can't make that call if they're not there as well if you say it's like a father and son relationship if that's one of your sons saying he doesn't want to die whether he's hallucinating or whatever's going through his mind then it's not anybody's call except for the man who's there who's then started the hunger strike so he's got to live with that but then that then becomes is he killing one of his own? so once he started the hunger strike somebody's saying I don't want to die if he lets him die then he's got to take full responsibility of that action so there was two hunger strikes the first one what was the planning behind the first hunger strike what are you thinking people are willing to give their life like that there's no even any words to describe that somebody willing to give up their life for a cause to try and create chains like that again I never get stuck for words I don't think I would justify it to then lay down people with your families outside they've came in an agreement that we're going to have to die here to try and create chains to give up your life that's unbelievable no matter what because I've spoke to people on the other side and they respect that they respect that and I never thought I would hear that from someone else who's moved from the other side but they did say I respect that it's unimaginable what they actually went through but what was that agreement then to them everybody was sitting to say look we're going to go and go on hunger strike here the first one did they think they were going to live up the life or did they actually think maybe this will give them a shock that maybe things can change so the answer to that I'm going to explain for the first time the reason I understand the first time was because my son he was doing this subject a few years ago GCSE level and he said to me dad we're doing hunger strikes and the blanket protest and my strong history teacher asked a very intelligent question to the class she says can anyone explain now we're dealing with this subject can anyone explain why so many men died in long cache or the maze prison whatever your take on it in the summer of 1981 why so many men died and I said well Thomas I educated you I told you the real story even though it's not down in the history books I know you did so what was the answer dad one guy put up his hand and said the reason why so many men died in the summer of 1981 is because of the five demands another guy said miss the reason why so many men died is because of political status and I said what do you say he said I put my hand up and I said miss the reason why so many men died in the summer of 1981 in long cache is because one brother let down his life for another and miss strong said but Thomas that's not in the GCSE curriculum he says no miss it hasn't been written down by the men who were there yet it hasn't been written down yet by the men who were there and he planted a seed obviously because she held him back at the end of the class he says Thomas could you stay behind and she says Thomas that was such a profound and intelligent statement you just come off with her is that actually what happened yeah miss that is technically miss those answers are not wrong you know they died for five demands political status but you asked the question why so many men died in the summer of 1981 that's the answer one brother let down his life for another they were all intricately linked like let me just come off the side of a cliff use this flip and she says can I ask you who your source is he says no miss I know these things and walked out of the class I said Thomas why do you not tell it was your dad that she doesn't deserve to know about you so see when the hunger strike then begin to start like what's going through your mind when you've got men there who's come up with an agreement to then lay down their life like what is the comrades in there thinking right so yeah the hunger strike is intricately linked to the blanket protest people just talk about the blanket protest but you have to deal with the five year protest which culminated in the blanket protest so one is intricately linked to the other without the blanket protest that hunger strike to that extent that gravity wouldn't have happened you have to remember that so that brotherhood was forged over a long period of time four years from 76 to 1980 and we became like we were brothers we weren't blood brothers biologically but we became brothers through adversity through the batons, through starvation you know, that commonality and so it's hard to describe it some people describe the blanket protest as an out of body experience or a metaphysical experience it's all that whatever it was it was beautiful that bond of no manhood that brotherhood which was forged throughout 77, 78, 79 and 80 we were of the opinion we'd rather be dead now because we're not going to get criminalized we weren't thinking like that in 76 or 77 you know maybe in active service you're going to get killed but this year it was in prison we were thinking R&R in prison we've made it across the line but didn't get killed we're going to put our feet up but it wasn't until July 78 when Brian Q's explained exactly what was happening everyone got up to the door and it was basically explained to us this is part of a policy about the British trying to crush the IRA and it's known it's a three prong military strategy of normalization, criminalization ulcerization was going to be where the British army go back in their supportive role and the police are pushed into the front line creating a law and order issue not a war the cages are in term of all ends this cages system ends and then these blocks are built and these criminals and these gangsters and criminalization was no longer soldiers after the 1st of March 1976 after that date you're now common criminals and you'll be treated as criminals and then to tell the international community the world out there we've resolved this it was a law and order issue it's nothing to do about freedom or human rights and it's been resolved we have crushed the IRA the breakers yard, the battlefield was to be the hate blocks and that's where it was going to be fought we weren't aware of that we did not know the tactics so it wasn't for me personally it wasn't until July 78 where we were actually told by the dark this is it and he was intelligent and he formulated a strategy and that we will always be forever grateful to him for that and we will always have that bond with him you know I couldn't speak highly of him any more highly than I can I just thought we needed that injection of professionalism and it was a proper general strategies on the way forward and he got us into a battle group and he says right this is how the troops are going to be run I'm going to lead them from the front and this is where we're going he put everything in context yes he's our soldiers but he's been caught at the front line and he's been in most campaigns and this is his statement in July 78 most soldiers are sent to the rear and set it out until the war ends and I thought that's what we were going to do he says in this phase of the campaign that's not going to happen the British war machine has now went into the camp and they're going to turn this place into an agar's yard this is going to be the destruction of the republicanism and republican movement it's going to be destroyed in here once they destroy the IRA and scatter their support base on the outside then they're going to broker a deal with the spineless SDLP and the moderates that was the policy and that's what the Brits were held back in doing on their stature and he says the only people are you, you guys we are actually going to make history here we are going to once are going to make the stand and save it, save the IRA and we were going Jesus and I was thinking to myself that night what happened to my R&R what happened to my rest period you know the rest and relaxation and I'm back in the front line of war again so I made the decision I'm not leaving this is going to be a long drawn out struggle this isn't a jail issue now this is the war machine that I've been fighting on the outside as I come into the camp so I've seen this as another military operation to defeat them we were going to use our bodies to do it because they had stripped us naked, disarmed us but it's never been seen in Irish history on such a scale I don't even think it's been seen on a world scale that a prison protest turns into a battlefield and part of it is the is the future of your own nation and I think you're right earlier on when you said about being a pivotal moment the hunger strike, the battlefield I'm just trying to explain the complexities of it and how we were thinking because we weren't really thinking like that until July 7th, 8th but after that statement I remember Scooby Keary and Jimmy Conway Jimmy Conway got up and shouted did you hear that? Scooby here he is, yeah here he is in other words you're going to die in here you're going to die in here and I remember walking away from the door and he was called Jared Derry, we called him Nana because he looked at the Greek singer Nana Muscuri long black herring glasses she was a Greek singer at the time called Nana Muscuri so he was known as Nana and Nana just looked at me he says fuck it he says we're never getting out of here he says we had to be the savers of the Irish nation I says that's our mission and I'm in the history I'm in the 300 Spartans at Thermally and he goes you and your fucking history lessons you know I says this is our moment, come with the moment come with the man, we're here we were going to make history, he says fuck it but it's mad to have somebody have that belief that it was going to change history and for 300 men a few hundred men to actually believe that as well and actually stand the ground to stand with the dirty protest to stand with the blanket voice and then go on the hunger strike to then create something where change did eventually happen it was all these stepping stones for things, for somebody what they believe in and stood strong towards it like you say that people were broken but so many people stood tall and were willing to risk their life to go wait a minute I genuinely believe what I'm fighting for is the right reason when the hunger strike started the first time like it was Bobby Sands as a person when you started befriending him I met him in June 77 we were still in remand because the Cromon Rouge was packed up in common prisoners so they moved us up to H1 June 77 and I remember him standing there in canteen and he looked like a Rothschild lookalike the hair he looked like a feather cut I think they called it and he loved Rothschild and on the blanket protest I actually gave him the words to this whole heart of mine from the Atlantic Crossen album it's a great track the second one by Aisley Brothers isn't bad but that one that Rothschild done from the Atlantic Crossen album is the best and Bobby liked that particular one but anyway he wanted to that's where he got that Atlantic Crossen album which came out by 75 so he says anybody got the words of this whole heart of mine I like that song, I give him the words to it but he loved Rothschild he was a good footballer, he played soccer didn't play Gillick, he played soccer in the yard that summer of 77 and he played the guitar he's multi-talented like and he was another guy he wasn't of the same he didn't carry the same gravitas as Brent and Q's if you know what I mean he wasn't viewed like that at times he could be a bit of a nuisance leave me alone Bobby but like the guy next door the guy in the crowd that you would overlook if you asked me then that Bobby's going to be this international hero I would say no not him, Brent and Q's yes but no not Bobby, no and yet they say come with the moment, come with them on he's the guy that stabbed out of the crowd his moment didn't come in 77 or 78 or 79 his moment actually came in 1981 and he stabbed forward in January he took over he'd been there from the 27th of October because the dark went on hunger strike the first hunger strike and Bobby became the camp of the Blocs O.C. but he hadn't really worked it out the reliance was on the hunger strike the first one to break the back of the British at Field where I explained that they offered a deal and took it away the duplicity of them if you know what I mean they offered a deal, they took it away they give us a two page document they give them in the prison hospital the seven hunger strikers a 32 page document but it was all flowery language this may happen and a more humane prison regime may be implemented if this protest ends but it was all maybe there's Brexit negotiation he keeps moving the goalposts you can't nail them down she was a bastard what she'd done to Scotland as well tore it apart people don't forget that I'm not for politics but I know my mum and dad had to go through my grand and grand and stuff that they proper struggled but what she'd done that's where you can have a bit of anger and vengeance towards somebody because you know how powerful they can be and politicians are powerful no matter what way you look at it they can change lives but they also destroy lives so see that sentiment that you have if you could just capture that for one second because then that's when we can join forces because we felt the exact same sentiment once she started letting them men die like that can you understand that sentiment yours is so much more affect more purpose to it but I know it was caused by a lack of jobs through the roof and this was the 80s I was only a kid but I remember the effects that it did have and there was no wars here so you've also got that added on to the thing that you're fighting for when the first hunger strike was there was it 7 men what you're thinking then when it's going to day 40 day 50 did that make you stronger to what you're fighting for did it make you question it like people are losing their life and there's nothing changing well there was always that possibility that she was going to do a brinkmanship we thought once they get there by 53 days she'll give them up that's what it did we were convinced that's what happened she'll not let them die because we were aware of international pressure no from the America the Irish-American lobby we had a big strong Irish-American lobby over there and we were getting I mean a priest was coming up Farmer Wallace he says last year there was 300 at the other alley for years that sounds about right 300 lazy people he says now with the hunger strike 10,000 have been 10 Belfast that he sounded we didn't believe it he says I'm telling you Israeli people really 10,000 people let's see what I went back and told the lads because all you got from them was the scale it was funny then you've been locked up for so long three or four years later somebody would shout out the door does anyone out there what year is it there was a lot of banter going on laughing at your own misery it was all black humor so when I get up and I say 10,000 and somebody shouts lie down Kearney will you he says I'm that land he says 10,000 people are on a march and spell fast he says will you lie down you fucking idiot stop fucking making it up nobody cares about us so there was a lot of black humor there was a lot of positivity through negativity through had to get through your day laughing at everybody's misery so when Fatsher apparently the first hunger strike he's actually thought he's had an agreement and if it was resolved then she took that agreement back she says once the hunger strike ends the 32 page document will be implemented but when Bobby read the 32 page document that's when Bobby's now coming of age so you can chart him back to around by the 18th of December looking at him in a critical given looking at I would always give somebody a critical analysis and I would go there's Bobby now starting to realise Jesus you could drive a coach and horses through that 30 page 2 page document that means nothing unless it's the spirit of the agreement is implemented if the spirit of that agreement is not implemented that means nothing and it meant nothing and that's when the dark realised that he had been outmaneuvered from a military point of view he was outmaneuvered the Brits had outmaneuvered him and he never recovered from that so the dark's downfall began on the 18th of December the day the hunger strike ended 1980 in February the 16th 2008 but his downfall began on the 18th of December 1980 he feels a bit outmaneuvered yeah he was outmaneuvered and he tactics wrong these are human skittles people are down here could he blame himself for that he did and once the second he knew then there was going to be another hunger strike he didn't want Bobby to go on it I think he didn't want me on the die I think as I told you the dark's for a general we loved him but he was a compulsion maybe he wasn't too ruthless enough but we loved him anyway yeah we loved him he just wasn't ruthless enough but that's not even I'm not even criticising him the dark's for the maze beyond criticism do people criticise him people criticise him I don't know they would give a throwaway line he should have died in the hunger strike or he should have that trauma cannot die but they weren't there so we need people over there so that's why you think if he had died then he wishes part of him would have died with the hunger strikeers and then it would have meant more as if he sacrificed these lies for his own gain but again if you were there and lived it he would try to look after everyone was he putting that across this is what can happen but obviously when you're trying to get peace and you're trying to get freedom you're trying to for the five what was it the five demands for you's like he'd understand the sacrifice but if you'd signed up for the IRA you understood the sacrifice which was worth it and I'd imagine that would death anyway so it must be hard because loving that day in and day out through the struggle of the beatings and the lack of food that no man there's not many people who's came through that and still here to tell the tale see on the hunger strike what was it like how many weeks did it take to deteriorate or was it just after a few days or did it take a few weeks are we talking about the second hunger strike here so there was a period of as I say Bobby tried to run with the ball he got it he was giving it bad hand none to do with the dark it's just the Brits without maneuvered and he was left with a 32 page document which he said to himself that you could run a horse and cart through that means nothing so he started come at the moment come at the moment this was in Bobby's greatness appears in my estimate in January where he says to Hildreach we can work with this Hildreach knows he's representing her Majesty's Government he says oh yes Mr Sons use have been outmaneuvered we're not implementing anything use are going to move now in the full criminality and full conformity this was absolute humiliation they wanted to rob our noses on it he says so all the five years of what just went through self inflicted it's all coming in hand he's the failed Mr Sons so the next sale to me was my the block O say called Pat McKeown he says I need to speak to my block O say from three four and six so Pat would have kept me up and updated because he was an Excel and he went up and met Bobby and they met the respective O say and Bobby said the following he says they think Hildreach Stanley Hildreach the Governor and the British Government think that we're going to capitulate we're going to put up the hands and surrender like the Italians during the Sagan World War but we're not Italians in the Sagan World War we're not doing it we're like the Germans we're not surrendering he says we're going to show them Irish fighting strength and one of the block Pat says Bobby really I mean is it mechanically, logistically possible to start an O's hunger strike after this the buckle, the fight maneuvers I know he says there is going to be an O hunger strike the first strategy was wrong all seven men were all together one becomes weak the others become dependent or become responsible the dark felt responsible for the weakest didn't want the weakest to die he can die but he doesn't want he can't allow his weakest to die so the strategy on our behalf was wrong this time it will not be seven men together it will be one man on his own there will be a lone paper on his own leaving the trenches at Enderville's they'll go towards the enemy lines that's how we've seen this a lone paper will leave the trenches on his own and head towards the enemy lines across no man's lawn and they'll say Pat says who's going to lead that he says I'll lead it I'll lead us out of the trenches on my own and it will be staggered every two weeks one man and it will not be a wave it will be one man on his own the man is responsible for his own life nobody else's he'll die on his own and that's what happened with Bobby I'll lead it out but first on, if I can avoid this I will I'm going to try and recoup some of this what's written in that 32 page document, it's rubbish but I'm going to try to from a propaganda point of view we need to regain the initiative and win hearts and minds for our own people the Brits aren't going to move but we're going to look at that defeat we're going to try and turn it into some type of spiritual victory that's what he tried and that's the genius of Bobby he needed to change the whole lead of the scene to commence the hunger strike it couldn't be seen as we're going to start another hunger strike but he had to he had to prepare people he had to go through a process we're trying and he had to show the intransigence of the British and their stubbornness and that's what he done throughout that month of January 1981 just prior to the hunger strike so he goes back to Heldreich and he says we can sort this out he says, yeah, full conformity he says another one of his meetings, he arrives with the Civilian Essay Clothing and it's yellow jumpers but like a yellow shirt canary yellow jumpers sky blue jumpers maroon jumpers, those are three colours and rupert the bear trousers tartan trousers and brown crocodile shoes and Heldreich says to Bobby what do you think of that, Bobby? That's the new clothes with compromise it'll not be the old grey and blue and straight uniform he'll be wearing that and he says, are you serious? they're going to look like rupert the bear can out name visits people are going to laugh at them even more than the old grey suits it's still a uniform he says, I think they're all right they've been ridiculous trying to fill you he says, we're not wearing that he says, we're trying our best we're trying to change the uniform try to doll it down a bit for you and he says no he says, we'll implement the step by step approach and Heldreich says what's that and it became known as the step by step approach where you take one step, we'll take a step so if we try to meet you halfway will you facilitate us? he says, yeah we'll see, I can report back to the British Government see what Mrs. Thatcher says so, what do you plan? he says, well we were thinking of maybe two wings one wing and hits three, one wing and hits five and a pilot scheme to come off protest he said that would be good that would be a positive a positive development two wings of man, 45 men in each wing so that's an 80 man coming off the protest he says, we will reciprocate that okay, it's that goodwill gesture so one wing and three, one wing and five comes off the protest stops in a wash and starts getting toilet facilities and that putting the excrement on the walls and going to the ablutions to slap out and they're washing in sharn and shaving so that wasn't my wing, I wasn't hit six at the time we were still in the wash but these two wings did this and then Bobby goes to the Hilt region says can we send their clothes in? Mrs. Thatcher will see so he preamps it Bobby entails the families send their clothes up for the two wings so all the families arrive with the clothes and they're stabbed at the gate no, that was the chance for them to get out of this, the British but they didn't want it they wanted total surrender and Bobby goes back to the Hilt region says you didn't meet us halfway you're not showing any goodwill at all he says no, we've got the reply from Mrs. Thatcher we want full conformity and you have to accept full criminality because these are criminals these aren't soldiers, these are criminals and that was the end of the step-by-step approach and the pilots game and the last time I met him I could maybe, would you want me to read a chapter? That's probably the period where we're talking about a chapter from a book it's chapter 62 where he had just it was February 81, we were in 6 and that's the last time I actually seen him because they beat them and because once the clothes didn't come in he says, right, smash the cells and go back on protest and once he had 3 which he was part of that one and he had 5, smashed their cells up and then to their lives they beat them badly like but then, because they smashed their cells they went up there, R block hit 6, that's when I met him so chapter 62, Bobby's dead hits block 6 1981 I met and spoke with Bobby Sons in February 1981 and hit 6 we already knew by that stage that he would be leading the Sagan hunger strike commencing 1st of March 1981 and that was the last time I met him because he was in quarantine for Sunday Mass was tense and rather surreal this was to be my last encounter with Bobby and I would never see him alive again so it was quite poignant and most of the men in the canteen that day got a sense of that shortly afterwards his wing went back to H3 while our wing remained in H6 we had been shifted from H4 to H6 in early November 1980 because of the men coming back from the conforming blocks in support of the 1st hunger strike we had a conversation to the blanket and no watch protest culminating in the hunger strike he went on to reel at us about how we had defiled our bodies in a croutesque way through the prison protest he made a point of how the body was the temple of the Holy Spirit and we were butchured of it and therefore claimed we had no right to defile it one prisoner standing next to Bobby Sons raised his hand and interjected while pointing to the gold crucifix placed upon the makeshift elder he said, Father did Jesus die on a cross so that others might be free? the prison chaplain, Toner replied, while taking the crucifix into both hands and raising it, yes this man, Jesus Christ, at the age of 33 for 3 hours an indescribable agony on the cross died so that all of us might be free the prisoner in question then placed his hand on Bobby's arm and said, Father this man here, Bobby Sons, is about to lay down his life for all of us that we might also be free when I looked at Toner I could tell that he was visibly stunned for once, speechless eventually his response came he said, I never thought about it like that is that how you all view this hunger strike? yes, Father it is, the prisoner replied Toner finished off the conversation with the words perhaps I need to go away and think about all this and the prisoner said, yes Father maybe you do need to do that Bobby was not the same person that I had known earlier in 1978 he behaved differently that day more solemn in my estimate my own personal observation that day concluded that he was a man at peace with himself and had resigned himself to his destiny and fate the usual sparkle in his eyes had gone and I noticed that he kept stirring at the floor the whole time during mass as if in a pensive mood when mass ended he went clockwise around the canteen as if bidding farewell to his beloved troops to the man who had stead the course and despite everything that had been thrown against us had remained steadfast refusing to allow the defeat to struggle in Ireland I watched as Bobby shook each of their hand when he came to me he smiled and said I see you're still here grabbing my hand and putting it in his at that moment in time I felt an incredible sadness sweep over me as I answered there's nowhere else to go Bobby there's nowhere else to go he held my hand in his and said good man, stay strong he then moved on to the man standing next to me who asked how come Bobby you have a pot belly all three of us laughed at the same time and Bobby replied that's because I've been eating most of my cellmates grub as it will keep me alive longer during this hunger strike I then asked him who his cellmate was and Bobby turned and pointed to a man standing behind him that man there, Maliki Kiri he replied after mass, Pat McCune who was our block O.C. in H6 ordered me up to the back window because I initially told him that I didn't feel like talking when I went to the window Pat asked me how I felt about Bobby that just happened in the canteen minutes earlier and I told him that I felt shattered he then said was that another body experience? what was that? we have just seen a dead man walking and the run up to the 5th of May 1981 we were under no illusion as to what was coming our way but we felt helpless in ourselves and were acutely aware that Bobby was about to lay down his life for us specifically and in an attempt to end the years of brutality and inhumanity we were suffering he was dying for the Irish Republic and for the oppressed Irish people in the wider sense but for us within the prisons it was much more personal and intimate and we all knew it Bobby in many ways had steeled us prior to the 5th of May 1981 because he had explained in written commas or communicas read out to us what was at stake in the hunger strike for example in one of his written statements he had stated that he was confident that he could achieve anything and the heroic women in our prison stood behind him in other words he was only as good as his weakest link and depended upon us holding the line after he was gone and equally we depended upon him so we were all intricately linked by that stage on the 9th of April 1981 while we were in H6 we heard the news of his victory in the Fremanna south throne battle action which made him an MP in the houses of the English parliament our morale was boosted to say the least but when Thatcher merely shifted the goalpost by implementing legislation to prevent the same scenario happening again we were deflated yet again we removed again in the latter half of April 1981 to H3 and continued the long waiting game on the fate of Bobby finally on the 5th of May 1981 I heard the click of boots coming down the wing and immediately went to the cell door and peered out through the slit at the top of the door I noticed two prison guards along with the prison chaplain Tom Tonner stabbed outside the cell opposite Brenton Q's The Dark and John Nixon when their cell door opened only the priest entered and after a few minutes he left within seconds Brenton Q's with his voice breaking shut it down the wing Bobby's dead with that shattering announcement I moved slowly away from the cell door and entered another world which I initially found alien to me and I've been trying to come to terms with ever since and I know that I'm not on my own the lads in the wing were hurt beyond comprehension terminating any conversations they were having at the back window or cell door although we were all bracing ourselves for his death it still came as a devastating blow and had the capacity to tear us into shreds I cried and cried until I could weep no more most of it in the silence of my own cell my cellmate Jim McCubrie looked the other way with tears in his eyes as well however coupled with the tears there was also an unparalleled rage and anger at this act of callousness we had to target Thatcher and her government towards us and our people who actually dared to support us Bobby had called upon us to be said fast in the wake of his death and we responded as he had requested so gradually we wiped away our tears and hardened our hearts and strapped on our armor once again this time with more grit determination than ever before if Thatcher and her government thought they had crushed us then we were going to prove her wrong the Blanket Man were now truly back in business and this time it was personal fundamentally this was going to be a fight to the death because between us and Thatcher with everyone else was onlookers Bobby's death had pierced our hearts like no other death and changed our lives forever he had not let us down and we were certainly determined not to let him down and life or death the fight would continue in the early hours of the next morning Pop McCune who possessed the crystal radio wrapped the pipe in the window while standing there he told me the following reports are coming in hundreds of Molotov cocktails arcing their way towards British army and RUC lines across the north the British have just breathed new life into our struggle without even knowing it and guaranteed that this war will extend by another 10 years at least the problem with the English is they think that they are perfectly correct when in actual fact they are absolutely wrong Post script I arose this morning and RUC came he thumped my door heavily without speaking I stared at the walls and thought I was dead it seems that this hell will never depart the door opened and it wasn't closed gently but it didn't really matter we weren't asleep I heard a bird and yet didn't see the dawn of day with that I worked deep inside the earth where are my thoughts of death going by and where is this life I once thought was in the world my cry is unheard and my tears flowing on scene when our day comes I will probably not be there O Glac Bobby Sons How hard does that for you to read a lot of that and go over it? I don't read that I really love it that book isn't about it was four years of hard graft hard work it was a labour of love I'm proud of every chapter because it took so long to do it and I didn't go to the book until it was ready to go to the book to do another chapter because most of the chapters were just pure rubbish it was literally rubbish so they were all bent and what's left is the it's a bit like an artist when he gets the final paint and he goes that's it that's how I feel about that book that's it my whole soul is poured into that book if you know what I mean and I've tried to give the lads who died a voice you know because they can't speak for themselves James because they're dead how hard does that look when you lose 10 of your comrades inside a prison fighting for a belief that they're willing to give their life for were you ever thinking that there's never going to create any change? we never thought it would end up making the gains that we did and I know it's not all Rosie in the garden every black and man former black and man former prisoner has their own view on life and they're all entitled to it it was one of the ones that taught us don't be putting your whole trust in your own leadership they're all made up of humans and human beings are fundamentally weak and vulnerable and can be compromised and are corruptible put your faith in yourselves so black and men are able to deal with each other's criticisms but beyond that we can rise above the politics of each other and our stance is that we see ourselves as brothers there's a more humanity a humanity that deals with more important politics so when Bobby dies when you just get word that there's over 100,000 people at his funeral what are you thinking from 300 people to then 10,000 to then over 100,000 the word is then the strength is understanding that we're all everyone's coming together what are you thinking then did you start to then get a bit more belief that okay something that says that we're going to do this for change and re-write the history books like was that a moment there when you thought that okay this is possible or did you still think no we weren't thinking that at all we were in a goldfish bowl it was partial and from that moment that he dies we don't care about anybody or anything we're not interested in the IRA if they're standing on board and stop the hunger strike we're telling them f off this is between us and them us is us and Thatcher everybody else stay out of this this is a dog fight to the end and the only people involved in this is us and her that's how personalists became so as one man dies another one picks up the baton and that's where this brotherhood comes in if you know what I'm saying there's a chain of events happening so as the hunger strike continues it becomes hard but does that then become what does that do with the outside does that then become like in bad territory where because then you forgot what you've actually been fighting for because then you've just went 100% no matter what happens I'm not giving up as a pastor because the third hunger strike you were fucked over so your trust is totally gone no matter what you're doing you're on the same wavelength exactly what's happening I'm trying to explain something that happened 40 years ago to somebody who wasn't there I'm trying to even in the book I try to take people on the journey I'm going out on my road I'm trying my best to simplify for people to understand what you were thinking at that time and that's totally understandable because there would be no trust anyway trust was gone because of the first how can you trust anybody that's going to come in with another 32 pages too many pages to say yeah we can give you this this and this it's just a case I will not accept anymore we're going to kill you or you can kill us as simple as that is that what it came to? Yes it was a gladiator fight it was two gladiators and there was no end to this so when it reaches the thinking was this is going to go on until 1982 because we've got 72 more than you we have 72 hunger strikers huh and by that stage in September were you know like the Blacks OC was telling two men in our wing we had two there was 10 eventually by September 1981 there was 10 men dead 13 in prison hospitals some of them in commas but we also in our 72 ready for hunger strike action two of them in our wing so the Blacks OC shouted over many men in that wing for hunger strike two and the OC was shouting down you you still on that list? Yeah okay I've been on the far right tell them now that makes it 72 there's 10 dead 13 in the hospitals and 72 ready for a hunger strike including them two tell them to there's nothing down there only death there's no strategy here anymore tell them that there's more than likely both of them are probably dead within the next few weeks without an outcome and the wings will say did you get that two of them shout out yeah I got it what's your response? Lana right carry on carry on because of the men who had went before they weren't going to let them down so it was all about not so much the flag it wasn't about that or the glory of Ireland it wasn't about that it was about we're brothers and I won't let you down one goes well go yes and I won't let you down but that means if I say I promise I won't let you down and you go out and you die and I live that's not part of the deal that's not part of the deal do you think that's where Brendan struggled he lived that's like the captain of a ship if it goes down I don't know if this is true but you've got to go down with the ship that would be it another 72 kids man ready to go so I was going on until 1982 it's mad to think that because there's also more tragedy while you were in the H blocks because your brother Michael came to see you and to say he's joining the IRA and you were against that somebody in the canteen told me in February 79 he says you're Miggles joined the IRA I was horrified I was thinking what the hell I can make a nowhere you know but that was dead I was meant to look after the house but I had a fight for Ireland's freedom and my people so I told Mick to look after the family and he says I'll do that I'll just hold the fort until I get out I'll do it and then somebody in Moss tells me in Moss tells me he's joined the IRA so I sent a visit out for him in March 79 and he came up I couldn't restrain myself even those screws were all milling about he says calm down he says get out of it she went to tell the Germans huh go on because the screws were all listening they were all walking about I said go on tell the Germans just what are you talking about I said I'm talking about you in the IRA get out of it I told you to hold the fort until I get out he says I can't he says look at the state of you you're like a skeleton he says I can help you bro here's me you can't help me you can't help me nobody can help me you have to hold the fort until I get out you have to hold the fort he says I can help you you do it for me I'll do it for you I'm not leaving I can help you you fight on the inside I'll fight me outside we'll be brothers together there's no talking to you no I don't I don't give you my blessing get out of the IRA I was like raising at him he says this is going in here one way or another you're going to end up in here you're going to get killed get out of it he says no I can't you do it for me I'll do it for you it's all he snaps out he asked me again at the end it was only 30 minutes he put the security book down there's no talking to you he says no do you give me your blessing? I promise I'll not let you down there's me I reluctantly give him it because there's no talking to him here's me don't you end up in here and don't get killed he says I'll fire 15 shots for you tonight that was his last words to me that was it he got up I had to stop and look back at him I've never seen him again that was in March 79 the screws it was a really hot day 12th of July 1979 and it's like that particular day everything's standing still I can smell the day I've got the vivid images of the whole day and everything through the blue sky the sun coming through the steel grills and I said to myself my life can't get any worse than this and then the maggots coming out of the corner and then the excrement on the light bulkhead and then they're all flaking once the excrement dries it starts flaking like a little ice it's back to the ice coming down from the bulkhead and it was between half 12 and 2 o'clock I heard the click of boots coming down and it stopped at the same place it opened it was a senior officer he says currently the governor must have seen you it's about your family I said well you know the order I'm not going to see the governor because he had to wear the uniform I'm not doing it he said he closed the door I kicked a cellmate Nana I kicked the Spanish mattress he was land-bosing I said don't I get up I think a governor's coming the governor senior officer all pale into the cell and the governor we called him Alfred Hedgecock because he looked like Alfred Hedgecock he looked exactly like him with grey flannel suit and bald head with a pubby belly so it's really a male chamber but he looked like Alfred Hedgecock so Hedgecock came in and he says do I get out so the screws talk him out I sent Mr. Kerry down for you it's about your family he says you know the order I'm not allowed to wear a uniform glad to see you he says um my brothers of you I says um of two I says what is his name I current I says um they're twins they're twins he says what's their names do you feel okay he says do you feel good no I don't feel good but do you feel okay do you want to see a priest I'll see a priest he walked out he says what's all that about I says I hang out with megal he says you don't call him megal anymore and um so I shut up the O.C. officer commanding of the wing and um hang my brothers there and um I need to go ahead and see the the visit and he says I go ahead it's a priest's visit and I already said sacred so it's a sacred sacred and he says go ahead if it's a special priest's visit to do with that bereavement you can wear the uniform so put the uniform on he was one of the brown armor statistic brunch these people specialized in torture and um here's my odd Jesus no this is just my luck getting Billy McCollister ah no Ray Kearney what's your fucking name you fiendian bastard I says I haven't got a name I haven't got a number what's your number what's your number fiendian bastard he says your number is 998 so what's your number and my only objective was getting down to the priest's visit to find out what happened and uh he was my obstacle but it was really hot there and he was walking a meter behind me and um he was starting to carry on again slaver and we called him busted sofa he had a blue shirt but it was two sizes too small for him and the buttons kept happening so he just started looking like a busted sofa so we called him busted sofa so busted sofa started um Ray Kearney a privy bastard and all of us haven't watched you're animal you're not even human and I just ignored him but I got to an internal wall screw was on with our dog and they knew each other and it was the glorious 12th and he shouts over to see you later the field bully and he shouts I'll see you later and he says the dog was barking the old station it was like really barking and he says do you want me to set that dog in that buster I'm fucking gonna get out the death here he's gonna fucking set a dog on me I'm not even gonna make him for this and here's Billy uh what do you think? he says I set that dog in that buster to say that he's trying to escape what do you think? here he is the dog was barking and he says not let it go but he says let it go he says um he says as far as I wasn't watching for two years he says the dog he's had disease and they all had a good eye laugh got into the visit anyway and the priest for Maud Wallace was there and he was chain smoking and he was sweating I remember the sweat coming down his face it was a really hot day and he says show us in the party's priest from your local area all over Plunkett right I don't know I don't know you I was just taken over he says it's a really bad news I got him out of a fucking relic and I says um is he dead? he says yeah he's dead I says as far as I know he was a volunteer was it the British Army or the RUC he says you know this is probably gonna be the worst news conceivable you need to sit down here's me I don't want to sit down I just want to need to know who shot him was it the British Army or the RUC he says was the Irish a pulmon army people you're fighting for here's me my legs buckled I sat down alright and everything crushed everything became frozen and I looked at his mouth and it was moving but I couldn't hear a thing I couldn't hear a word he was saying and I answered no one's line then he said did you hear me he said um where is he he says he's laying on the border on the Ferman border he says um the Republican publicity bureau has released a statement at 2 o'clock this afternoon who's that he says I don't know he says it's some arm of the Republican movement the Irish Republican publicity bureau never heard of him he says yeah they've released a statement he says he was one of their volunteers he was executed as an informer he was spying on them for the British I give him my glasses in March and he done that with me he betrayed me, betrayed the struggle, betrayed our family he deserved that he says well I don't know I says hi it's my mom she's distraught she wants to know what's your next move what are you gonna do I don't really know I don't know who that's here so he left and I was parked out of the visits and um the first person I ran into was Ciaran Bacardi he died in a hunger strike but me and him were friends I said run your heart boss brother's dad he said run I said run the shell of you he thought I said soldier, run the sedgery no ugly in her here's what he knew you are megal, knew me, knew the family screwed post of mine and then worst thing happened to me was Billy, he was my torturer on the way down he was my saviour on the way back up he grabbed my arm I didn't like that he always walked a meter behind me he was right up he grabbed my arm, I got my right arm don't be doing that Billy he said no it's alright I heard see what you hear he says I heard the proof he shot your brother and he's laying like a dog on the border in Firmana he says your war's over, nah he says you're with us now and I was neither with them or I was neither with the IRA I didn't know who the hell I was with I was shell shocked moving around a battlefield but I knew it to myself that soldier quality years big lord you need to get into action here because you're in a fucking battlefield here that's what I was telling myself I'm shell shocked here, I need to fucking find out where the hell I am and he says if it was my brother I remember the conversation some people say to me how do you remember conversations from 40 years ago I say this course is possible and I have a photographic memory and I've verified that with my brother he says I read the book that chapter is absolutely right because of the chapters about Arshon coming up the next day I says I remember that conversation did I get that wrong? no I read the book yeah it's 100% of course you can remember conversations from 40 years ago especially when they're pivotal moments seminal events and he says to me if it was me I'd hunt them down for the rest of my life and we came with the fork on the road inside the camp that way it was to the conformant blocks and that way it was back to the protestant blocks H4, H3 and H5 and he stopped and he had my security book and he was waving it about black security book and he says I'm not letting you go any further I'm stopping you right here and I just looked at him like fuck he looks like a Presbyterian minister and we were babled on he's my savior he says I'm not letting you go any further he says you're at the crossroads in your life and he says and you're going to have to make a decision what age are you? here's me 22 he says well it's time to grow up he says and you're at the crossroads so what's it to be? that way to the conformant blocks or that way back to the ones that murdered your brother make your time, make your mind up and it was a seminal moment and it was going to define me did you question it? did you then become a target? if your brother became an informant did you become a target then? no by the IRA? no they wouldn't think like that why did you question it then? I questioned myself on that crossroads because I knew the decision I make is going to define me for the rest of my life I felt that he was right about that a pedmer, a pedmer he actually came off with a sensible a sensible phrase and the fact that he says you're at the crossroads in your life so I thought that way that way and my feet carried me my feet carried me that way back to H4 and I baffled him and when I look back he took his hat off I realised he was bald because he always wore a hat and the first thing that came into my head he took his hat off and started scratching it and there's my Billy McCollister's bald fuck I never knew that I had to tell the lads he's actually no hurt on that campus that's like things kept you going no such profound moments and you're going stinking silly, silly things I don't know what happens there I'm like I have to tell the lads he's actually bald you know and that's the member I'm thinking and then he run up alongside me to my right he says why are we doing this he says we'll start talking about philosophy he wouldn't understand the word but that's what it was I realised when I look back on it he says why are we doing this why are we going back to H4 you tell me you seem to know it all he says let me work it out alright I got it here's what you got tell me why am I going back the reason why you're going back to H4 and not the other way to the conformant box is because you're dedicated to your cause got it here's what you got it I wouldn't please him he wanted he wanted to rationalise he wanted to tell the statistic branch back in H4 what's that bastard doing back breathing through on dead bodies on him he's still not breaking that would have unnerved them fuck we've tried we've started him out we've beat him we've put shit in the food we've murder charged him we've actually assaulted him we've fucking dead bodies being thrown at him that would have unnerved them so they would have wanted a rationale for that but he was going to tell him he was going to go into the canteen I was with him what's that fucker doing back it's okay I've got it sorted I got it I was talking to him I'm inside his head it was all the big main games back then it was all main games getting inside their head because they couldn't do it physically and he was going to oh he's dead again I've got a food from we've got more pressure here maybe we've got pressure we'll break him we'll get him we'll get him in the end but I said no you're all no you're not dedicated no I'm not dedicated so what's the reason why we're coming back it's a strange word we're living in that's all I said to him it's a strange word I wouldn't please him but we'll come back in anyway the circle screw made me face the wall he says face the wall I wouldn't do it I had and the governor's door was open and there was two governors sitting there one was Chambers and another one two of them were watching the bed and I kept turning around he kept smacking me in the face face the wall no smack face the wall no smack Nazi stays slaps the face and then Chambers shouts out after by force slaps he says stop assaulting that prisoner and the screw he looked at him because the governor was the one and then he shouts and stabs assaulting that prisoner so the governor and the screws looking you're giving the order for me to break away seasons and then you're telling me to stop he says bring him to me bring him in here so he shoved me frog marks me across the circle into the governor's office he says get out and close the door there was a middle class thing going on with the governors too there was different levels in the cash long cash you had the working class screws you had the middle class governors and then AGs there was maybe 20 or 30 there but they're all middle class war suits they're all pretty university educated so you're going through all that then losing your brother losing your comrades to the hunger strike losing so many other people when did the demands get settled when did that agreement happen well after the hunger strike just to finally show off when I went in to see the governor he just says currently I can get you out of here and he says I apologize also for the fact that that I broke that news about your brother in the way it did I apologize it's not the way one human being should treat an or do you agree here's me I agree he says so you need to get out we'll give you a compulsion of parole that's what I want you be with your mother and on all that and he says yes we'll get all that sorted out I just need an undertaking that you don't come back here you go into the criminal blocks I says I'm not going to you know he says give me a written undertaking I didn't give him that he says well give me a verbal undertaking that you'll not come back and I said I don't think I can do that he says why is that why can you not give me a verbal or a written undertaking he says when your brother is being murdered by the people you're fighting for your own army stopped you in the back I says the black man didn't do it he says why are you doing this I says because I'm a soldier you're a soldier and he turned to the governor he says currently he's a soldier and the governor beside him I remember him looking up in the eyes like rolling the eyes here we'll go again he says you soldier of Northern Ireland I says no don't recognise Northern Ireland I'm a soldier of Ireland and he says you soldier of the north of the south I says I don't recognise the 300 miles frontier I'm a soldier of Ireland I says I'm fighting for my people I'm fighting for ultimately freedom for our country as well get rid of that border he says you're going to give me that undertaking so I can let you out to see your to be at the funeral he says no and he I was refused compulsion of parole didn't get out to the funeral and so it continued anyway until 1980 we've explained that and then 1981 throughout the 10 man dead the 10 man died and on the 3rd of October 1981 the hunger strike ended and it ended with a number of demands been granted the new Secretary of State was Jim Pryor and he asked you a package of measures he gave us 50% remission back so the four years I lost I got two years back we got rid of the the budget criminality the criminal uniform we were able to wear our own clothes and then we got the association so three of the demands were granted there was still an outstanding issue that was segregation that's what we were looking for like free association we got one visit a week one parcel so all that was sorted out the clothes issue was sorted out the remission 50% the matters half way you didn't get 100% you got 50% but there was still an issue for our own wings or what we would want Republican wings that would be counting them out the political status getting your own Republican wings being separated from criminals and that wasn't granted and also the work issue they still wanted to call the tasks so instead of saying go to work they'll say carry out the task so that wasn't resolved but the following year we went into the conforming blocks and eventually through acts of sabotage and we forced the law to still lock up and we were granted segregation in October 1982 a year after the hunger strike and the following year through the great escape the mass break out through the Hanna C report he says all the imprisoners are too dangerous to send to work so the workshops closed and all five of the months were granted by September 1983 with one and how was that feeling for you? it was a glorious day when I got my clothes you're not wearing a pink shirt or something and you thought this day you were still in for five years that's right it was a pink shirt flared trousers white socks canary yellow jumper yellow's always come into your life yeah yellow, it's a big part yellow cars yellow cars, yellow civilian issue clothing you're a yellow jumper today it's all bringing back bad memories sorry James you shouldn't be wearing that so when you eventually you should come in with a black coat pulling that jumper like in through your whole life like the misery they torment losing your brother I think partially probably blames yourself to this day that you look at Brendan losing his potential kids blaming himself like going through all that and then thinking there's never going to be an ending you're going to die in there to then winning like how was you and the other people around you feeling they just feel some sort of victory they just feel more pain because what you had to go through there's a whole period of mourning yes but by 1983 new men were coming in and that was good fresh troops were coming in because the war was still going on and they were completely oblivious so when we were on the blanket they said they coined the phrase we ended up on the duvet because of you guys who were on the blanket just won all our demands so they were all coming in right until when the camp closed in July 2000 those guys from 1982 well from 1982 on they were having a life of luxury that ended up as a holiday camp you know what I mean one of the torturers was a guy called the red rat and Brian he used to call me Seamus and I called him Brian and we had that rapport he would always say Seamus you deserve this that went on for years but the red rat anyway I remember going out to the the circle this day to the MO and this would have been 1985 it was all over we had our own republican wings and the criminals had their wings they were called mixed wings and it was all over newcomers were coming in you were sunbathing in the yard you had your multi-gyms it was pretty good like it was a great feeling getting a good tone in the summer of 1982 I got a brilliant tone and 83 we were great tones we were just loving life in 1982-83 it was great shut it at me in March 85 I was going out he says Seamus and I went oh Jesus Brian he's one of the torturers he led the statistic branch he says where are you going Seamus I said Brian I'm going to see the MO why are you going to see the MO for the medical officer I said Brian have we touched your acne on my back oh I'm going to get cream for it he says going to see the doctor my my my whatever happened to the big rough tough provo fucking going to see the doctor huh four years on the blanket protest you're going to see the doctor for a bit of cream you know what I mean Seamus here's me Brian I understand exactly what you mean hardcore spartan going to see a fucking doctor I know Brian but I'm just sure it's all over he says oh no I said sure we're one in the end anyway sure we got everything but oh well oh I use one I says here Brian what about coming down into the Republican Wings I'm officer come on I'll let you down and we can talk about the old days just me and you we'll talk about the blanket protest eh eh the four years of torture you'll never get me down them Wings currently forget about it oh come on just for the old times Brian me and you come on a cup of tea I make a cup of tea now you'll never get me down them Wings so that's the stage that had reached by 1984 1985 you know what I mean it was over there were stress troops coming in and they were oblivious to all that suffering so for Brian justice was served and he was killed on the 4th of October 1988 when you were getting out you threw all that getting your release date how were you feeling well I got a spent nearly 10 years in jail in prison over four years on the blanket protest so when I got out I got out in Valentine's Day in 1986 and I got out with 35 pound in my pocket the governor gave me 35 pound he says um I said to myself I'm gonna I'm gonna double that I'm gonna turn that into 70 pound and I did and then I double that I'm gonna double that and double that and then I finally set up my own business hard man working for me became a successful business man even through all the misery and pain you endured still run the business congratulations brother like never giving up and it's for anybody like there's people not being through a 10 who you've been through and can't get out like when you talk about misery and pain and it's like probably being in here would imagine worse if there is like today and coming through and writing a successful book and it's still been a good bubbly character through well you say the dark humor laughing and then making jokes and your memory is very strong and through dates and certain times and names like you remember all that so imagine you keep repeating it it's just like a revolving door going down in your head it's intrusive images what's important for this story as well we talk about Michael your brother again your mum came to you and wanted to find out what actually happened to your brother so I think it's the best at you 1986 I got out the year before that there was a military stalemate and we were far from being defeated and we were galvanized and there was to be a Tata offensive to be launched another big push by the IRA I wanted to be part of it and when I got out that was my intention to return to the army to launch the Tata, help launch the Tata offensive against the British but my mum and I had a walk down the Glen Road in March 1986 and had the dog with us Rory the dog and she says to me son what do you intend to do now that you're out here with my mum only out 4 weeks I'm going to take 2 years or an hour 2 years, yeah maybe go away in the continent or something like that for a while I'm just taking 2 years rest and relaxation and then recalibrate it to be honest mum we've launched a military offensive here, it's called the Tata I want to be part of it we're going to pay back thatcher we're going to watch it done on the lads we're going to give her a bloody nose she deserves everything she gets but I'm going to give you a task I've stood by you for nearly 10 years and I need for you to stand by me here's what you're talking about mum she says I need for you to find out what happened to my son Michael here's my mum, I wouldn't even know where to start the IRA has never cleared its own volunteers ever it's inception in 1916 they're not going to start with me anyway, it's a poison chalice I'm a republican, I'm a trooper I'm with them, he says well that's your task, you can do it for me I stood by you, now you have to stand by me so I promised her I would try and find out I took a long time, painstaking because the IRA don't clear their own and eventually anyway it was in October 2001 few failed attempts and then I studied and waited until the political climate changed and when I heard Martin was going to say on the radio something about the conflict is coming to an end and this is a time for the heart to be healed and for unanswered questions to be answered that's my cue there so the climate had changed, the political climate was changing and it was after the Good Friday Agreement of April 1998 so I approached the army again the leadership and because I was one of their volunteers I felt I had a foot in the door and the climate was changing and on October 2001 the army launched it in the investigation into the circumstances surrounding what happened to Meagal and it lasted until 28th of January 19 or 2003 so from October 2001 to January 2003 an army investigation took place at a leadership level as to find out what happened to him and they came back basically saying that he was cleared that he wasn't an informer and the army cleared him at leadership level and to go into the detail of it I wouldn't really be prepared to go into the detail it's too complex but it's just the fact that he wasn't an informer and he was executed I said that's part one I need to look at part two he said we're not involved in part two then when I'm interested in part two we've basically cleared your brother from being an informer he wasn't an informer and that's we were happy with that I knew there was going to be a part two I always knew there's something that right about this but I couldn't put my finger on it so I went along with chapter one and my mum was happy that before she passed but in 2016 part two started and that's when my lawyer contacted me in July 2016 and he says I'll ask you a few questions and then you can answer so I went down to see him I said what's this about that was August 2016 he says we have uncovered files from the British and they were involved in the execution of your brother they set him up they had infiltrated the internal security unit through other people including but not only but including a steak knife so steak knife was there when your brother was executed but he was a double agent working for the force research unit and your brother was set up from Castle Ray to the force research unit and into the internal security unit which had been infiltrated so the internal security unit of the IRA who arrested Michael and took him across the border were working for the British and they executed him you're talking about your story there I don't know if it's a congratulation or not but you just became my longest podcast me over three hours the big man can talk I tell you that deserves a hunt who's got a couple more questions to do that she says you are going to break before him James English is going to break I would never challenge you to any competition mate holding my breath whatever you try to do mate I would give you that because I'm a winner myself but just knowing you came through what you went through your whole life your solid man if I was ever going to battle or anything man I would want you right by my side because you're 100% loyal for whatever cause you're fighting for you wouldn't break or bend many times you probably thought fuck this but you had battle how do you feel talking about this whole experience and come through over the last few hours I watched you with Sam Miller and I've been offered certain interviews and I don't think so there's certain people I wouldn't talk to because I don't like their technique and their confrontational at times and what I noticed about you just from an observation watching the whole Sam Miller interview you allowed him to speak and you weren't cutting across him and you weren't being prejudgmental and that's the essence of a good interview I appreciate that because that's my whole point everybody's been raised differently everybody's got different race different religions different backgrounds my job is not to judge a challenge my job is to let people tell it from their side no matter what you've done my job is to let people understand what you've actually done and why you've done it because everybody's got there's always a catalyst for whatever I've seen anybody can do anything in life they can be whoever they want but certainly conditioning to the brain can make you become who you are as well but you can become a product in your environment so many ways and that's why I don't judge but I don't care what the fuck you've done my job is just to let you tell your story and to guide it on a journey where people can be that was amazing I'm blown away by that do you not mean that how do you feel about all now are you still bitter towards it all what had happened was I was lucky the dark wasn't lucky in around 1996-1997 was the war coming to an end etc I started going downhill the post-traumatic stress disorder kicked in and I was just driving down the Orma Road this day and there was something on the radio and it was a sad song I started crying I pulled in the hot feet straight and started crying like a baby and I was like why am I getting on like this and then I started getting things where I want to vomit and bring it all up and it's just so fucking it's much frightening actually because I was worried that three kids would run the business I can't allow this to happen but I went to a friend of mine who's the woman in the pink coat if you read her she's the woman who befriended me in the jail we remain good friends it's not Blondie is it the first girl friend the what? the girl friend Blondie was but the other one was the older visitor where she came in the woman in the pink coat she was the Methodist minister's wife so we were always stayed close even when I got out she phoned me yesterday and she said how are you feeling now well she said what is it I'm feeling really weird I'm having like flashbacks which I hadn't until by 1986 here's me I'm not sure what's happening here she says I have a friend and she's home from Chicago they call her Helen Selen she's a trans psychiatrist she's in her fifties and she's an expert on the Vietnam fats because there's nothing in Northern Ireland or these ailes that'll deal with people like you do you want to see her so I went up to Seahore she was an American psychiatrist called Helen Selen and she says by 97 a year later it was getting worse she says how do you feel here's me deep down I actually want to kill myself but I haven't got the balls to do it but if I had the balls to do it I wouldn't be around here for much longer I'd be dead where do you want to go I can't see my purpose anymore in life so I want to be where they are now she says well see if I give you the tools for recovery and you make progress how would you feel about living on this earth for a wee bit longer so that you can educate people and tell people about your dead comrades and set the record straight and then you can join them you can leave this world what do you think of that, here's me yeah, but do you have to work with me do you have to work so you feel like a drowned man, yeah I can throw you a life ring only if you want it I'll go with that and she gave me the tools for recovery so by the setting of the Good Friday Agreement it was in April, 1988 I was coming out the end of a dark tunnel I had severe post-traumatic stress disorder and she identified that and she gave me the tools for recovery and journals and she was brilliant and then this book Trauma and Recovery by Judith Herman that was where Babel she called it I read that and then read it and then read it and that became my Babel too it's called Trauma and Recovery by Judith Herman and basically just giving you the tools for how to get out of post-traumatic stress disorder she says James did you know that PTSD that people bounded about but do you know that it's just been a diagnostic category since 1988 not early it's relatively new and it really came out of the Vietnam War before that you had the Sagan War War which was Battle Fatigue and then the First World War was Shell Shock but Vietnam War produced this thing called PTSD post-traumatic stress disorder but it's only been referred to as a diagnostic category since 1980 so it's relatively new a lot of statuary bodies don't know how to handle it they don't know how to handle it but I'm pretty good at it because it did come from the Vietnam War and I've dealt with a lot of Vietnam Fats and you're suffering the same symptoms they were having but I came out the other end so she said to me is there it's just a litmus test is there anything at any poems or anything you want to throw out there from inside yourself which is profound here's me yeah there is but I'd be like a drunk man I couldn't do it and I couldn't do it then in 1996, 97, 98 well 98 she said to me around it took me there two years and she says um see those that poem that you have referring to your comrades do you think you could do it now I read a line of it and I cried a line on our line and I cried but I came out the other end out of the dark tunnel I feel as if it was like a woken waking out of a dark sleep no like a real deep sleep and you wanted to stretch it was like Lazarus I felt like that's how I felt coming out the other end of PTSD you don't make a full recovery from it but the real severe case you do start getting your life back together and you can rationalize and you can articulate stuff so she says I want you for this litmus test to read that poem again without crying here's me and that was April 98 here's me then I'll know if you are making progress and that's it there it's uh it's the most profound of all of them you know it's it's uh it's talking to your comrade he's on the other side and one of the ten lads by Bowie represents that suffering represents the town represents that sense of loss and I'm talking to him but I can do it now and that shows how far I've come it doesn't seem quite so long ago the last time that I saw you isn't it funny how the memories grow seems they always fold around you they tried to break you in a living hell but they could not find a way so instead they killed you and a hate black cell and hoped that all would turn away the spirit could never rise again but you dared to prove them wrong and in death you tore away our chains to let the world know here freedom song yes the heartache and the pain still linger on they're still here though it's so long since you've gone but we are stronger now you showed us how freedom's fight can't be won I wish there was an easy road to choose to bring this heartache to an end but easy roads are always sure to lose time again if you could stand by me like yesterday I'd find the strength to carry on and with your spirit lighting up the way I know our day would surely come but the heartache and the pain still linger on they're still here though it's so long since you've gone but we are stronger now you showed us how freedom's fight can't be won if we all stand as one well done brother and to come through all that that just shows you your caliber of who you are like you're clearly a fighter if wars were right and soldiers were right you would want you on the front line multi-percent like you know how solid you are like that you would still wouldn't be broken and that itself is fucking unbelievable to people break at the slightest thing we live in an environment where it's such a soft generation it's actually easy to be successful because there's so many weak links everybody's solid, even ice is solid and with you you've had so much heat on you where you haven't broken so no matter how long you've got left and I say if you can hold your head high and go a fucking stood what I believed in and nobody fucking broke me in that there there's no money there's nothing in the world that can give you that satisfaction of winning a fight that you truly believed in even though you never thought you would win it at some points but it's mad to think that what people actually went through those camps like it's sad to see as well how other humans can treat other humans like I've stated before that there's both wrongs on both sides as well there's a lot of destruction from both sides that nobody will ever go over families will be destroyed and there's part you will live with the pain until the day you take your last breath but for anybody that's watching it is maybe struggling that's maybe battling some sort of demons what advice would you give for them I would say that there's always light at the end of the tunnel when I was going through that in 1996-1997 nobody told me you'll come out the other end of that well it's the cadres Helen Seelins said if I'll give you the tools for recovery and if you take the tools then I will get you out of it but I had never actually heard that anybody who had actually went through the tunnel come out the other end but I'm the one that did and I would like to say to others if I can do it and it doesn't matter what you said you're on the British Army, the Irish Republican Army doesn't really matter they're soldiers or soldiers and they get involved in wars on all sides so I'm not going into the legitimacy of war or the morality of war but I'm just talking about what ends up and how the people that are affected by it how they recover and there is tools for recovery and I would be a living example of that and I would always like to tell people you know in the public domain you know if you're struggling out there look at me I haven't through it I've been the hell and I come out the other end and I am a verification that it can't be done but you do need to have that inner strength you need to have the inner strength that you actually that you can't make it some people just decide to give up but you have to dig deeper and deeper and deeper and I've always been able to do that you have to be able to dig inside yourself for that reserve that we all have it's just some of us don't tap into that reserve but that reserve is there we all have that extra tank but a lot of us don't tap into it to give up and I'm not saying that's a bad thing that they give up but I'm just saying you need to have that inner strength and you can find that inner strength by that self-discovery you have to discover yourself but it can't be done it's quite simple it's not too complex all I was given was the tools by a certain guide who was knowledgeable on that who was important the right guide, the right person that you're comfortable with and then for the listening for that guidance and for those tools when they're handed to you take them just before we finish up brother the escape, the prison escape how many people escaped was it 37, 38 people from the headquarters how did that happen well basically and we were held bent and not wanting to go back to work that was the final demand so it was actually Lorne Morley who was known as the Farjimal he was the mastermind or the architect behind that escape and once they were forcing us back to work they were the architects of their own destruction the prison administration because they were so held bent and putting these men back to work with the semblance of criminalisation left that Lorne and people like him decided right away to exploit that so they actually gave Lorne Morley and people around that escape committee the eyes and ears of the camp so Lorne was travelling into the cement works he was getting into the sewing machine he was getting the whole scone of the whole camp the whole layout for them it was forcing them back to work so he used that work the fact that they were forcing them back so he was in the cement works he was in the horticultures he was checking the walls he had a bloody mental landscape that whole layout whereas before we knew nothing how that camp was wrong we didn't know the layout of it we didn't know where H5 was or H4 but Lorne was able to do a blueprint of it and he was the architect of it and we were complaining I was in H2 this is the irony of this H7 was now where most of the staff ended up in the escape committee so we were complaining to the camp staff prior to the September 83 why is Big McFarlane allowed out the bumper of the circle when we aren't and why is he out at the front gate brushing up what the hell is going on up there we're hearing stories that he's having cups of tea with Mr Smiley and H7 the black PO I mean does he not forget that there was a hunger strike sorry does he forget there was a hunger strike in a blanket protest and then why are they so Polly Polly the Christmas before Christmas E2 Mr Smiley the PO principal officer came in dressed up as Santa Claus do all the boys there was no answer from H7 we'll get back in that but after the escape they get back and says that was a desensitization desensitization program they were desensitizing them they were making them friends they were saying to Smiley come on have a cup of tea come on open that gate while you're at it they had all the gates of the whole black open and they were able to get information from the screws and they got a whole layout of the black and where the tally lodge was and the whole escape mechanism when the lorry came the hadith from the screws were telling them themselves fucking idiots idiots so the whole security of the black was completely demolished by the IRA desensitization program which was quite unbelievable so when the order came the order was for the bumper going to stand out the bumper that was the order for the escape to take place which was to shout stand out the bumper they captured all four wings down the circle and carried out a mass breakout how was it when the Hplots get towed down in 2000 was that a lot of emotion with that it was closed in July 2000 how was that for you when it got demolished well the guy said to me in 2006 do you fancy going back up there moving on backwards he says what about one day only never to be repeated what do you mean you and me go back up and look at it because it's going to end up getting turning the dust it'll be crumbled but just for us to say we triumphed over that I'll do it so we went up in June 2006 myself and Jaggy my partner a small group of us but there was a tour tour guide and he was with the OFM DFM the minister the storm out government and he was probably actually back to H4 my old block and he says this is H4 and he went to sale 26 and he says this is where they used to put the lockers and this is sale 26 and hang on yeah that's Romberg and he says what's that and he says that's Romberg it's known as Romberg which crew is called that that was the scene of much brutality but there again you're going to deny that because it's all self-inflicted and he says no here's me no he says we had a group of retired prison officers up here he says they're a lot older than you he says they wouldn't go in there but he says one of them ventured and came back out and he says we carried out some brutality and then prisoners in there and they all nodded here's me I'm surprised they actually had meant it yeah they're not publicly had meant it but privately they know what they're doing and he says he says I think they're reaching the stairs in their life where they're looking back in their life and go on Jesus Christ what the hell do we do but that was that was me going back in June 2006 and yeah I walked in there was a tree growing in the cell smart a tree was growing through the cell a tree was in the cell and I says to Joe if he was growing trees in here but yeah we were able to go back and look at it yeah we we we prevailed so it was a more happy memories yeah it wasn't a negative no it wasn't negative but a closure for you yeah so how hard is that for you now because you've never had any one admitting that you were brutalised and tortured and as nobody's ever came forward and admitted that have they yeah well there's a so you're at this book here so you're touching on it's to verify everything that you're saying in this book yeah it's 100% yes anything I said in that book can be verified with the international panel there's a report of the independent panel of enquiry into the circumstances with the H. Black and Armour prison protest this was released in October 2020 so the book I didn't write the book I wrote it in conjunction with this in other words I wrote that book but that book is well covered and it's been it's been supported by this and this is the international panel I give submissions to that so they have all the detail in this international panel the international panel itself it was made up of the late Warren Allman who was the former solicitor general for Canada alongside Richard Harvey Barrister Law and Garden Court Jimbers London he also served in the international war crimes tribunal at the Hague and Dr. John Burton retired family doctor and research into human rights law access to prisoners files the preparation of prisoners testimonies legislative research and access to government documents were administered by Omar G. Solicitor so it's basically come up with the findings the findings were and I'll just mention it in brief having considered the evidence of former prisoners whose lives remain scarred by physical and psychological suffering and social disabilities the international panel unhesitatingly concludes that the inhuman conditions in which prisoners were held were calculated to cause intense physical and mental suffering with the intention of humiliating and debasing prisoners and breaking their physical and moral resistance further from the contextual evidence and the export opinions sought by the international panel regarding specific types of ill treatment in its impact its conclusion is that many protesting prisoners in the Hays Blacks and Arma prison were subjected to torture the British state should reject the proposition that the suffering of former prisoners was not self-imposed or self-inflicted it was the consequence of a purposeful policy implemented by the UK government whose institutions were fully aware that their policies and practices violated international human rights law and standards and breached common law and statute the international panel concludes based on all the evidence received that the ultimate legal and moral responsibility for this torture in human and degrading treatment over a protracted period of time within the Hays Blacks of Lancash and Arma women's prison rests on the prime minister attend Downing Street and senior cabinet ministers who knew and approved of that treatment yeah for coming on a day and brother and telling your story I thoroughly enjoyed it it's been a long one but I think people will get a better understanding and with your book as well I'm going to leave the link in the description for people to buy it but this book should be in the history books anyway because it's fact checked and everything is 100% on it would you like to finish up on anything brother what do you think I've just got my story out there I've just hoping I've got everything covered that I wanted to cover yeah I could talk about Brownford if you want no used to sing Brownford in the blocks give me a whish on let's stick together cheers again thank you God bless you and good luck to the future no problem thanks for watching