 And the title of our session is the Twin Challenges of State-Building Growth and Security. And I was discussing that title with our two distinguished panelists, Shaykh Hanoushi, the founder of ANADA and Minister Sisei, the Minister of Economy and Finance of Mali. And we were both in agreement that actually there are probably many more than two challenges when it comes to state-building. Myself, I've been involved in transition in fragile states when I was ahead of peacekeeping at the United Nations, and I can see that one of the foundations of a peaceful transition is inclusivity, but at the same time a state that delivers to its people. And the challenge that I've seen in many countries is that indeed after a period of dictatorship or after conflict, there are so many things that need to be fixed. So where you start is always a big question, how you prioritize, how you, in the face of so many challenges, how do you get it right among all the competing needs that you need to fulfill? I'm going to ask first Shaykh Hanoushi about Tunisia, because Tunisia, I mean, the Arab Spring, there have been a lot of crises, but Tunisia, although it has a neighbor in crisis and that is certainly a further complication, Libya is in a deep crisis. But Tunisia has been a success story. It had a peaceful transition. The party of Shaykh Hanoushi emerged as the big winner of the transition, but it was not with a view of a winner take-all. And Tunisia has seen an unusual alliance between moderate Islamists and Shaykh Hanoushi has played a very important political and intellectual role in defining what moderate Islam means, moderate Islamism means. It managed that peaceful transition through this alliance between moderate Islamists and moderate secularists, and that alliance is still holding. And so, Mr. Hanoushi, I would want to ask you now, as you look at all that has happened since the fall of the Ben Ali regime, and how did you get there? And what do you see as the challenges ahead? May the peace of God be upon you. Thank you very much for inviting me to participate in this very important panel to discuss democracy and the relation between democracy and prosperity and stability. You know that Tunisia has achieved very important transition democrat. And we succeed to organize many free and fair elections. And we succeed to drafting draft very progressive constitution, where the main rights have been guaranteed, the human rights, the quality, gender quality, the right of believer and unbeliever. So Tunisia enjoys the first and real democracy in Arab world. And it's considered as an exceptional example, proves that democracy, once it is possible in Tunisia, why not in other Arab world? And now we face another problem, the problem of the prosperity, the problem of stability vis-à-vis our fight against terrorism. And this is not only Tunisian problem, it's international problem, and we cooperate with all democracies to contradict and to fight against this disease. So we are very optimistic. We face many problems, many challenges, but we have enough confidence that Tunisia will continue achieving their goals of its very exceptional revolution. Thank you very much. Minister Sisse, you have done a lot as a minister in the government of Mali. Mali has made a big progress since it was almost overwhelmed by an extreme radical movement who was willing, was ready to march on Bamako if it had not been international intervention. As you look at your country today, and I know that two days ago there was an attack that killed 70 people in the north, so the security issues are still very much there. But as you look as a minister at the challenge that you have in your interest, so to speak, and beyond the Ministry of Economy and Finance, how do you see the situation in Mali and how would you prioritize? Thank you very much, Mr. Geno. Thank you for having given me the opportunity to take the floor here as Minister of Economy and Finance in a country which went through a crisis, a deep crisis which affected the integrity of our country. I am very pleased to be able to talk to this crisis and the solutions we have perhaps found in Mali. Remarkable progress has been made concerning solutions to the type of crisis we went through. The state now is present throughout the country or almost, not entirely but almost. This is considerable progress. The inhabitants of Mali have started talking to one another. They have launched a social dialogue which is slowly bearing fruit. This is a dialogue which is creating social and national cohesion between the different groups, the different ethnical groups in particular. Now, this peace process, this reconstruction process in Mali was not an easy thing. In fact, it is still a difficult thing. It is difficult because it is multifaceted and also because it presents a wealth of daily problems. Some of the obstacles we encounter are, for example, the suicide attack you just referred to, which took place in the north in a town called Gau in a camp where the armed forces of the country were grouped together and were meeting. Those movements who had decided they would sign the reconciliation and peace agreement, they organized mixed patrol groups and were based in a camp which was attacked, as you mentioned. Much damage was done, there was also considerable loss of life. These are the types of obstacles we meet as we try to rebuild our country and establish peace. These obstacles, these difficulties discourage the government sometimes and the allies of our government. This could be a threat to any form of sustainable peace. The situation we know today is a situation which is very convenient for a certain number of people. We are now in the midst of a process which presents us with many obstacles which we will have to try to solve on a daily basis. Furthermore, this process is a very complex one. The crisis we have experienced is multi-dimensional. It is simply a political crisis, an institutional crisis or a security crisis. It is a mix of all those dimensions. It is first and foremost a political crisis and there was a coup. All institutions being abolished at the time of that coup. Two-thirds of our territory was then occupied occupied by rebels which were joined by terrorist groups. So in 2012, 2013, we were faced with a situation where the central state had been completely abolished and where we had a rebellion on our hands with the jihadist movements in the north of the country. And it is these two factors which made the situation very difficult. It was very difficult to manage such a situation. This is the crisis we are now slowly trying to move away from. Some solutions have been found and results obtained. We must continue in this direction in order to be sure we can attain lasting peace. The legal form we are working under is the peace agreement we signed in June 2015 with all our financial and technical partners supporting us and all the groups who joined us. Well, you have just mentioned the political conditions prevailing in your country. There are movements who are undertaking serious violent attacks in your country. Do you think that politically speaking you should be doing more? Do you take further measures or is it now a matter of development and administration? Well, when I said the state was present almost everywhere, I was referring to the fact that we're not present, fully present, in the north. So the state must re-establish its authority in these areas in the north of the country. If the state establishes its presence, that basic services will be supplied to the population, which is not the case just now. This is something that is being done. The mixed patrols I mentioned, which were attacked two days ago, had as their aim to ensure security in that northern area for us to be able to establish an administrative infrastructure and for us to be able to offer all sorts of basic services. Efforts have been made, but unfortunately the efforts made were washed away as it were. If you look at Mali, as most of you know, you will see that it is a country which has very few resources. It's one of the poorest countries in the world. So few resources, a vast territory, two and a half times as big as France, and it's a very extensive country. We have more than 5,000 kilometers of borders with a great number of countries. Furthermore, we are landlocked. Because we are a landlocked country and because we have few resources, all the efforts made in order to help the northern regions did not bear their fruit. The efforts didn't bear visible fruit, let's put it that way. If you spend money on a project, if you invest on a school or a maternity in the south, this could cost X number of francs, but if you have to do the same thing in the north, it will cost you 100 times more. Because the northern part is difficult of access, because it is difficult therefore to invest money in that region. Investments made were wiped away also, because this is not the first rebellion experienced in that region. Since our independence in 1960, we have had five rebellions. It's a cyclical phenomenon. Every ten years there's a rebellion and each rebellion brings along with it misfortunes and much damage and destruction. So everything that is done over a period of time is suddenly destroyed. The first to suffer from this is, of course, the population of the country and development is slowed down. Now we're working towards a lasting peace. We hope that the agreement signed by all the stakeholders will lead to lasting peace in Mali. Of rebellion, so what was done wrong in the previous rebellion that now you need to do differently so that there's not another cycle? I think really it's a matter of development. That's what it boils down to. The state within its limited means tried to develop the north, but the efforts were not considered as being sufficient, quite rightly so. What has changed now in respect of former crises is that today we realize that investing in the northern region will cost us something, but it is not a cost we must take into account. What we will be able to achieve there will be done at a loss if necessary, but it is absolutely necessary in order to create, it is necessary for us to make all the efforts in order to create jobs and to avoid that certain young be tempted by terrorism because they live in poverty and uncertainty. So that is what has changed in respect of what happened in the past with our partners, that is the way in which we're looking at things. Development has been mentioned and you addressed very well the political side of things by making sure that moderate Islamists and moderate secular would work together. But in Tunisia, like other countries in North Africa, there are lots of young people and many of them don't have a job. Jobs cannot be created by the state, they need foreign investors, they need confidence in the country, they need an open economy. How do you see the challenges for Tunisia there, the young people without a job which can become a threat for the stability of the country? I fully believe that it's very wrong to think that we can contradict, that we can fight against terrorism without economic development and also in the same time it's not easy to fight against terrorism without prosperity and we cannot achieve the stability without also prosperity so we have to fight global war against terrorism using development, democracy because without democracy we couldn't contradict and fight against terrorism so we have to global medicine against this disease and giving young people their needs, giving them the job so also I would like to insist that without moderate interpretation of Islam in the Islamic world we couldn't fight against terrorism because terrorism is based on lack of development, lack of job and also based on false and fake interpretation of Islam so in this view we propose the real interpretation of Islam we propose the democratic interpretation of Islam, the moderate Islam to fight against the false interpretation, the people who interpret Islam in wrong way to justify the injustice, to justify all wrong things so without real interpretation, democratic interpretation of Islam we couldn't contradict and fight against this disease so we need a global solution to contradict and to fight against terrorism in the same time we fight against underdevelopment, poverty, lack of good education, good health so democracy is the main frame to improve, to develop the national unity against terrorism the international unity also against terrorism and to help people to find jobs to improve the economy and you know that last month in Tunisia we have seen very important international congress and international meeting against poverty where many governments, many businessmen come to Tunisia and participate and sharing our project for contradicting and fighting against terrorism Tunisia and Mali are both African countries but very different actually Tunisia as you said is not a rich country but compared to Mali it's much richer and so when one looks at both the political dimension of the challenge and the economic administrative dimension there are differences I mean in Tunisia we see the importance that you stress of having a national reconciliation where religion unites rather than divides in Mali it's not really about sectarian divisions it's more north which has its own divisions which is less populated than south and because of the great poverty of the country we heard from you that the state in a way has to lead in the north it's unlikely that it's not private investors probably who are going in the north to pave the way for I mean before there is some basic state services Tunisia is a different case where tourism is one source of income and investors can be attracted to the country in a way probably more easily than in some parts of Mali but when I discuss it with analysts they say that one of the challenges that Tunisia has is that while it has a strong business community that has contributed actually to the peaceful transition of Tunisia at the same time the opening up of the economy there's still people and it's not unique to Tunisia you see many countries where the economic elite is not always determined to really open up the economy to outsiders and I would assume that Tunisia and here we are in Davos with a lot of business people investors looking for opportunities for the creation of jobs having those investors coming to Tunisia putting money in Tunisia is going to be very important and so what can be done there is it about regulations is it how can one really overcome the obstacles that can limit foreign investment in Tunisia you know that Tunisian system is open system, democrat system this system is based on the consensus between all parties, all trade, all trends Islamist, non-Islamist, so it's inclusive model and also in the economy our system is based on the consensus also between trade unions and Chamber of Commerce and so through dialogue we would like to reform our system and we achieved now many reforms in the economy to open up our system and other projects are proposed to improve our system to open up to attract the investors from inside and our side and in a sort to participate, sort participation between the private sector and the public sector so once our democracy is completed by local elections and by reforming our economic system I think Tunisia can be optimistic and the Tunisian system is the international economy can have enough confidence in Tunisian system and in a manner that terrorism has no future in Tunisia because Tunisian people is modern people and once we succeed to improve our economy and complete our democracy and guarantee the stability in our neighbors in Libya, Tunisia has very flourish future Yeah you were telling me in a conversation when we were discussing this session that yes there are Tunisian Yes, there are Tunisian people in Tunisia and the Tunisian society is strong because of the lack of confidence It seems that these people are very close to each other It is impossible for these people to take the Tunisian role We have the ability in the police and in the army to improve our system day after day and our people, our police and our army are in a situation to attack these Arabs In Syria and Iraq it's true that there has been Tunisians have a reputation of great moderation and wisdom but it's true that they have been significant compared to the population a significant percentage of violent jihadists coming from Tunisia How do you explain that? It's not part of Tunisian nature This phenomenon is strange in Tunisia because this is hered from Ben Ali and regime because Ben Ali declared war against any sort of moderate Islam So sort of vacuum is there and this vacuum can be used, exploited by some extremist interpretation of Islam and they try to exploit this vacuum but Tunisian people is moderate people and the religion in Tunisia is very moderate and this phenomenon is very strange and no future for this phenomenon because it's strange of our people nature That's a very interesting point, an important point that you are making as religion is a moderating factor and it's people who are in a kind of vacuum with no cultural or religious foundation that can fall prey to radical... We focus now in democracy to prove that there is real compatibility between Islam and democracy and we try to distinguish ourselves from the terrorists by emphasis and insist on democratic Islam like Christian democracy, Muslim democracy, so we consider ourselves as Muslim democracy to distinguish us from all sorts of tourism or extremism because this is the nature of Islam, Islam is mercy, Islam is justice, Islam is for mankind of people so we couldn't make any development in economy or in politics by marginalizing Islam but by good interpretation of Islam, Islam can play very important role in the development in the economy, in the politicians to confirm the stability of the country and to confirm and to support the justice, the gender equality, the human rights So marginalizing Islam, what has done Ben Ali was the base, the roots of the extremism now in Tunisia and terrorism Very interesting and important point, now if one turns to Mali which also like Sile countries as a tradition of very moderate Islam and yet you have extremist movements still operating in the country and as you look at them, it's a question that is much debated I mean you see, because from the answer to that question in a way depends a bit the politics that one has to pursue Is it these radical movements that are a challenge, a security challenge for the country as we discussed earlier Do you see them more as a product of disenfranchisement of people who are in parts of the country where there has not been enough development, what you were saying earlier I mean how important is the religious, more accurately pseudo-religious dimension of that violence How do you see it? Because that question is important because if it's essentially more disenfranchisement of ethnic groups that then it's essentially about development, if there is a pseudo-religious dimension then the policies that you will develop in terms of education, of giving cultural framework to the people matters a lot, maybe both, but I mean I'd be interested in hearing from you how you see that in Mali Well if I may, and before answering your specific question I would like to revert to the previous point Tunisia and Mali are different from a social political point of view The causes of the crisis we experienced in Mali, in Tunisia and even in Libya are very different and the solutions will therefore probably also be different, but there are certain solutions we share If you study those crises you will see that those crises endanger our states threaten the existence of our states in Tunisia, in Mali and Libya So the first reaction is to re-establish the state institutions to make them credible and this is what happened in Mali, we had presidential elections, open, transparent elections This made the winner credible, he won by some 70%, a government was set up following those elections So institutions, legislative, executive institutions have to be set up very rapidly in order to make it possible for the rule of law to prevail, this is a solution you have to apply everywhere As long as you don't do that a country won't function and that is the case in Libya Secondly, once that has been done, and that is what we tried to do in Mali Once that has been done one has to try to re-establish economic stability In Mali we wanted to launch a trend towards growth for 10 years before that We had had an economic growth between 7% and 10%, but then we went back down to zero growth and even negative growth as it were So we have to make sure economic stability, macroeconomic stability is established That is also a common, shared solution Really high growth, many countries would end those rates of growth and yet there was a security crisis, so that would suggest that either the products of that growth were very unevenly distributed or the course of the crisis was not really an economic course What would you answer to that? No, in fact in many countries south of the Sahara and in Mali growth is not fairly distributed Growth has to be inclusive Growth has to benefit to the poorest in our societies This was not the case previously At present we have decided to do things in such a way that any growth will benefit the whole of the population and in particular the vulnerable parts of our population That is what we are going to try to do and to achieve I think the private sector has to play a fundamentally important role here In the case of Mali, the private sector played a very important role in reconstruction in relaunching the country as it were This has been experienced in other countries When there is a crisis, when institutions disappear, the private sector continues to function We don't quite know how that works but it stays there in Mali That is what happened The private sector showed that it was resilient in the face of a considerable crisis as we are talking about a coup after all and a multi-dimensional crisis We have to make sure that the private sector can continue to function even if state institutions are in jeopardy Now, I don't think that we would have been able to survive the crisis and there was a coup, as I mentioned, if we hadn't had investors When we had the coup, the international community withdrew The international community does not take kindly to coups We lost 40% of our budget In fact, our budget was feeding off taxes that local companies and foreign investors paid to our treasury This is what made it possible for us to continue paying wages and salaries over a few months Had it not been for the private sector we would have been able to pay those wages and the crisis would have been far deeper than the one we experienced in 2012-2013 I think we have to be able to reassure the private sector Make sure that it can work in a secure environment and flourish in a secure environment That's what we have tried to do by adopting laws that protect the private sector We have also tried to provide basic infrastructures and funding to that sector That is what we are still trying to do now We furthermore have to reassure the private sector when it falls victim to a crisis, as was the case in Mali Part of the private sector suffered during the war that took place in the north Many infrastructures were destroyed Rapidly the state stepped in, set up programs to compensate those who had lost in the course of the crisis That is a confidence-building measure If there were to be another crisis we hope that the private sector will continue to work knowing that it will be able to rely on the state if the damage is too great or if losses are considerable This is important for us in Mali We are using the private sector in order to finance development projects in the north We have set up a sustainable development fund aimed at helping the north and the development projects in the north Each year we are going to pour into this fund something like 200 million dollars on a yearly basis Part of these resources come from the private sector We levy 0.5% of the net profits made by the private sector The private sector understands it is in its interest to pay this tax It is what ensures security and peace If there is no security, no peace, the private sector is threatened This levy, this tax will be levied over three years Our hope being that within three years time we will have lasting peace Mali and Tunisia I think Mali inherited its crisis Most of the jihadist movements in Mali came from elsewhere and are in particular the fruit of the Libyan crisis The vulnerable area in that part of Africa at the time was unfortunately Mali When Libya was attacked by international forces the jihadist left and came to Mali There are no Malian nationals in those groups, in those forces So we have inherited these movements because there was poverty in the area That is why we have to change the situation in the area That's why we have to offer alternatives to the young in the northern area of our country Offer something better to the young than what the jihadist movements are offering They have a lot of money, they live off organized crime and drug trafficking So if you can create jobs, I am sure that they will understand where their best interest lies Don't hesitate to raise your hand and participate in the conversation Following on what you said If I understand you correctly, in your priorities as Minister of Economy and Finance you have to make sure that the state is present in every corner of the country Because that's very important, precisely not to have the kind of vacuum that then be exploited by transnational movements But then as a Minister of Economy and Finance, you stressed how important it is to reassure the private sector to have investors We are in Davos, so you have also fine investors who could get interested in Mali as they could get interested in Tunisia As you look at your priorities as the Minister of Economy and Finance You mentioned regulation, but you see areas in which you need a particular effort I don't know if it's taxation, if it is law or society How do you, what message do you want to give to investors and to the people here Looking at your country and looking at the whole world They see there may be, there's more risks maybe in your country than in a highly developed country But at the same time we all know that risk and reward are correlated And so what would be your message for them And how would you reassure them that your priorities are the priorities that will make Mali a more attractive destination The objective which might be mine as Minister for Economy and Finance Is to convince first and foremost potential investors of the fact that Mali could be an interesting choice That Mali as a destination is attractive to investors Attractive because of the business opportunities which exist in our country Let me mention for example the mining sector We are the third gold mining country in Africa south of the Sahara 50 tons of gold on average on a yearly basis exported from our country Over and above gold we also have a lot of bauxite manganese and other ores The crisis we experienced has in fact shown us that in spite of the crisis Investors from abroad continued to work with our country in particular because of our mining activities There is a guarantee, there's a security we offer to investors We have signed conventions, agreements with foreign investors And those agreements bring with them security and security in particular for the money they invest in Mali Over 30 years now we have signed a considerable number of agreements And in fact Mali is well known by investors because of the fact that it never called into questions The contracts, the agreements signed with the private sector however bad the crisis was at the time I think this is important for investors who might be attracted by Mali Over and above the mining industry we also have an agricultural sector which is considerable in Mali All the ingredients are there to further develop the sector To give it if you like an industrial dimension The country is big, we have areas in our country where there is a lot of arable soil We have water resources, two very important rivers, one of them being the Niger River So I think there is a possibility of further developing agribusiness as we call it We produce sugar, we produce rice and I think we could do far more in those fields We could produce considerably more than what we do for the time being So I would say that the business climate is quite good Two, three weeks ago Mali was considered as the first country within ECOWAS to have developed such a stable business environment This is the result of study doing business undertaken by the World Bank So we do have certain advantages to offer, we want to make sure we retain those advantages Investors have seen that crises don't affect the private sector, we need foreign investors We need them to come to our country so that we can create job opportunities And this should help us in fact fight against the destabilizing forces which exist in our country Because we open opportunities for the young ECOWAS and the regional dimension of development and your good positioning there In a way we are coming close to the end so unless there are other questions I will ask a couple more questions Precisely that regional environment both in the region, West Africa, North Africa I mean for Tunisia in the eastern border it could be better, the Algeria on the western border And then there is Europe on the other side of the Mediterranean There is the tragedy of migrants going into Europe but it also shows that both the human and economic connections between Europe and Africa are natural It's partly history, it's also just geographic proximity And I think we would all be interested to hear from you in a way this relationship between your country and Europe, the European Union, European countries on the other side of the Mediterranean How do you see it? How can it be developed in a way that benefits you, that benefits Europe? There is a natural connection and yet there is a sense that the full potential is far from being realized So this is a question I would ask both of you, I don't know who wants to start, Hanushi It's clear that the attack, terrorist attacks against Europe and against the United States itself Prove that our global becomes small village and none of us is immune from terrorism, from extremism So we have to fight together hand in hand against this disease because this is a present real threat against civilization, against the international peace So we have to fight in all fields this disease among them in the economy So, talking about Tunisia, I think that Tunisia succeed to implement and represent real democracy, exceptional democracy It's a successful story of transition, democrat transition This example is very important to invest in, to make it successful, to complete the success of this model Because investing in democracy, supporting democracy is a short way to attack and to have victory against this disease Billions have been spent for fighting against terrorism, this work will be done But a very short way to fight against terrorism is to invest in democracy in the so called third world Because our global becomes small village, you cannot be immune in any part of the world We have to be immune, immunity have to be done and guaranteed for all, all people, all mankind That's a very clear and strong message, I think before I give the floor, I ask Mr. Sisi, I think you had a question My name is Susan Matale, I come from Lusaka, Zambia I just want to ask my minister from Mali, he has painted a very wonderful picture about the contract they are signing or have already signed With the investors regarding the mineral wealth that they have, how transparent the processes were in contracting with the investors Do the people of Mali know the content of the contracts that they have signed? And also we live in an era of illicit financial flows, I speak that because that's what's happening in the rich mineral countries like mine Where our funding is being siphoned out of a country and it's not benefiting the local people What safeguards do they have to ensure that that doesn't happen? Because they are at a nice position now, where they can make sure that their policy environment is watertight, thank you very much So you have two minutes to answer that question and conclude because we are coming, we are running out of time, I am told Well I think that about the contracts, the agreements I mentioned, much more can be done, we can do much better than what we have done Many of these contracts were signed 20, 25, almost 30 years ago We want to respect these contracts, some of them are going to reach the end of their validity We want to renegotiate them and I think that we will be able to do so and do so better than what happened 30 years ago So certain important aspects have just been mentioned now by the person who put the question Which were not taken into account when we established the first contracts Mali since 2007, 2008, Mali has become a member of the initiative on transparency in the mining industry So we respect the principle established, every year there is a compliance audit That makes it possible to see how the resources we draw from the ground are used and all information is made available to all citizens of Mali who wish to be informed This is particularly aimed at our civil society So the contracts we will be renegotiating will be better than those we negotiated in the part because we will be taking into account things we hadn't taken into account in the past An important factor in the success of a country with the quality of its leaders So we have been very privileged to have you both today, two people deeply committed to the future of their country and I think that gives a lot of hope for both Mali and Tunisia Thank you very much