 Okay, we're live. No technical problems this evening, folks. Thank you so much for your patience. So we have a great program for you this evening. So let me introduce the program and give you all a little background before I introduce our guests. So, welcome to what the F is going on in Latin America and the Caribbean, a popular resistance broadcast of hot news out of the region. In partnership with Black Alliance for Peace, Haiti, America's team, Code Pink, Common Frontiers, Council on Hemispheric Affairs, Friends of Latin America, Interreligious Task Force on Central America, Massachusetts Peace Action and Task Force on the Americas. We broadcast live on YouTube Thursdays for 30pm Pacific, 730pm Eastern. You can find a simulcasting on three YouTube channels, Popular Resistance or Code Pink Action and the Convo Couch. Yeah, post broadcast episodes can be found on Apple Spotify and Google Podcast. Tonight's episode, North America's Trilateral Summit, also known as the Trace Amigo Summit. We have three guests. So Castillo, who is the co-executive director of Global Exchange, Alina Duarte, who is a journalist with scenes in sort of will be joining us from Mexico City. And Jim Hodgson, who is a Canadian journalist, living in Chiapas now. And also, all of you probably recognize my co-host Raul from Common Frontiers. So Raul say hello to everybody. Hello, Terry. Hi, Jim. Wonderful to be here again, like always. Thank you for having me. So let me give all of you a bit of background. It's a little lengthy for typical backgrounds for this program, but I think it sets us up really well for tonight's conversation. The objective in having three guests this evening is to have a representative from each of the three countries. So here we go. Just a little explanation first and then some background. The North America Leader Summit, which also is known as the Trace Amigo Summit or the Trilateral Summit of North America, is between the Prime Minister of Canada, the President of Mexico and the President of the United States. The summits were initially held as part of the security and prosperity partnership of North America, and that's a really scary sounding organization. It's a continent level dialogue between the three countries that was established in 2005. And it has had various iterations since then. So regarding January 10 of this year, which was when the three leaders of state actually met, the summit start was actually the ninth, 10th and 11th. Biden met with on low on the ninth, all three heads of state met on the 10th and Trudeau met with on low on the 11th. So here's a little bit of background. The United States, Mexico and Canada on Tuesday, January 10, vowed to tighten economic ties, producing more goods regionally and boosting semiconductor output, even as integration is hampered by an ongoing dispute over Mexico's energy policies. We've done a full episode on that on energy policies in Mexico. US President Joe Biden, Mexican President Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador and Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau met in Mexico City and pledged to beef up supply chains after withering serious what excuse me weathering serious disruptions during the COVID-19 pandemic. Quote, we're working to a future to strengthen our cooperation on supply chains and critical minerals. So we can continue to accelerate in our efforts to build the technologies of tomorrow right here in North America, Biden said in a joint news conference. Lopez Obrador said the region would promote economic development by creating a committee for important substitute import substitution to make North America less dependent on other parts of the world. The White House said the three countries would improve legal pathways for migrants and Lopez Obrador again urged Biden to press Congress to enact measures that would regularly regular lies. The migration status of millions of Mexico citizens in the United States, Trudeau portrayed Canada as an original architect and the principal guardian of free trade on the continent, as he called for a new era of three way growth. And he called on would be investors to take a leap of faith, similar to the one NAFTA pioneers did in the early 1990s. And they wanted to read all of that to everyone because it really doesn't sound good. It really, I mean it doesn't sound like anything really earth shattering or transformative. And from the from probably us and Canada the most I think there's things coming from Mexico that we can talk about that are trans transformative and that perhaps the Mexican president is really pushing for that. Where would you guys like to start tonight. Jim's joining us as a Canadian journalist from Mexico. Yesterday, Raul and I had a recorded a conversation with Marco cut Theo. And he gave a very, he actually is Mexican by birth and lives in New York City. And we asked him to give us a perspective from the United States so maybe we should start with that. And, okay, all of you to meet great friend fabulous activist, and someone who's been really supportive of our program. We have asked him to come back and share the perspective on the trilateral summit from a US perspective, but also, Mexico to so I want all of you to meet Marco Castillo. He is the co executive director of global exchange in San Francisco you will find in the program notes the, the link to his social media as well as to the global exchange website. Marco wrote a fantastic article in advance of the trace amigo summit that occurred in Mexico City on January 10 specific as to immigration and issues on the Mexico California border and that is a big part of his work as well. So welcome Marco. Thank you very much. It's always wonderful to have you as a guest. So, honored to call you a friend and partner in crime with activism. So why, where's a good place for us to start here a year article, let me, let me just tell the audience the article is entitled solving immigration starts with helping families feel safe at home. And you're working on that multiple fronts I guess we should probably throw out the piece summit to that you can be hosting in Mexico City in February. So a big part of, well maybe not as big of a part as we would like of the trace amigo summit or the North American trilateral summit did focus on immigration but I have to say from my perspective reading the news post summit, not enough was placed on on immigration. Right, it is it is pretty clear that the United States of America has the singing voice when it comes to immigration of ordinary. Mexico has been just, you know, kind of kind of, you know, accepting everything that the US have have been requesting. And, and this is no exception days before the dress amigo summit, the Biden administration Biden himself was at the Mexico US border. And, and from there he you know announced this new expansion of the parole program for Venezuelans to other countries. And, and it's, you know, it also announced that most of these asylum seekers will be send back to Mexico, not even to their countries of origin but but anyway, it's a sad reality. And it's a bitter note that came even before the dress amigo summit, the US, once again, trying to sustain Trump era policies that we thought that we're long gone. They changed title 42 to another new thing called title eight, and they sustain most of the same restrictions. They expand a little window of opportunity which is this parole that they offering for some countries, but in general, they are saying that they will be sending to Mexico, most of those migrants that are currently at the border, or in attempting to come and in the next, you know, in the next weeks and and for the, you know, for the rest of our lives. I mean, hopefully that'll change but that's what they're intending. And so it's, it's a dark plow over the potential that a meeting like the dress amigos in 2023. One might think that could bring. I guess a comment is that, you know, I was a progressive leftist, you know, leader and has a lot of great policies. But it seems like he's kind of doing the dirty work for the United States or a migration, you know, detaining migrants in Mexico. Why do you think he's doing that like what is he is he trying to get something out of it like what would be what would Mexico get out of it or is it just that they have no cloud and they have no choice. Like what, what, what is it what is in it for Mexico are they getting something somewhere else for that. Well, you know, there's, there's many things that are at the table negotiations. And, and unfortunately I got to say that in the political background, obviously, one of the main things is that is that Lopez overdores is not new in this country. He clearly knows that he needs to keep a hand, you know, with the United States. If he was to break with the United States and as many of his, you know, critical sectors might expect. Obviously, you know, maybe facing a similar situation that the recently asked the president of Peru or in Venezuela we've seen, obviously, the right in the United States is dying it's anxious to throw a bunch of sanctions and threats to Mexico. And so he's been navigating this waters. And so that's that's one of the things to take into account. There's very little room for Mexican governments in general, to say no to the to the United States unless you're ready to go into a war, if not with the whole country, at least with with you know the conservative sectors that can make your life pretty difficult. But it's not only that it's also, you know, trade, it's the US MCA. There's many elements that the US, you know, has to handle. And the moment that that the Lopez administration misbehaves. It's a moment for where sanctions will start to come through and you know, like, and investments were limited. So, so he understands this, this dynamic, and he has been playing a role of trying you know, a champion for Latin American politics. And at the same time he's trying to maintain good relationships with the United States. Those these things are very complicated because we, you know, as progressives wouldn't like to see that kind of bending. But at the same time it's very hard to think that like, we got to see that there's very little room. And finally I also have to say something that I that I want to recognize from the administration is that there's many people who will be that are calling including migration experts that been calling that Mexico should not be playing this role. And Mexico should not be taking an accepting migrants that want to go to the United States. Yes, I mean migrants should go whatever they want to go. But at the same time, Mexico, it's a country of immigrants. It has changed its face in the past decade, and Mexico has to have in place the policies to welcome all people in our country and allow them for all of those who want to stay to find a job, get into school, have access to health care. And so that's for me that's a huge question. Okay, I'm low. You are accepting this terms. What are we as a country are going to do to take 30,000 migrants and and and and be able to you know provide them with housing because what's going to be really important. We're going to do the shadows and keep them in shelters on their terrible conditions. And that's another story. And that's really, really, really a bad thing. The shelters are really more like warehouses. Absolutely they're at capacity and they're not they're not governor government run. It's not it's not a public responsibility they're wrong but civil society. Based on jobs trade. Labor and those are all things particularly creating the three countries creating a unified, you know, trade and actually called for something similar to NAFTA which you know makes all three of us here just cringe to your nap that that term used. Yes, and this is the sort of a little speculation on my part. But there was talk at the summit, specifically about the semiconductor trade industry. Yeah, making that a hemispheric. And there will definitely be a need for labor for that. Canada and the United States are upset with the Mexican government's decision to nationalize lithium and to start controlling the electrical production, you know to have some of that natural resource sovereignty the US and Canada don't particularly specifically for foreign investment but how much of this is about creating an economic block and I specifically asked this Marco in relationship to on low reconvening Salah after a four year pause hosting that while he was still president of Salah in September of 2021. So much of that summit was so many was foreign ministers and presidents and so many national representatives mentioned hinted on creating an hemispheric economic block to engage with the rest of the world and using Salah to do that. It seems to me that potentially on low is the bridge between Salah Salah is all of the Americas with the exception of US and Canada is he sort of the de facto bridge liaison between what Salah wants to do, and being the person to integrate US and Canada to this, or does he want to separate things North America and the rest of the Americas. I mean, I think it was really, really clear during the meetings that I'm low was trying to play that role. And it's, and it's almost an impossible game I don't want to be pessimistic but it's a really complicated one. The moment that I'm low, and you know, and stated that, you know, that the US that these were his words that the US should end, you know, it's history of, you know, looking down at Latin America of oppression. We immediately found a wall from the from the US Canada side, but admittedly responded by saying there's no such thing. We treat everyone as equal. No one is investing in the region and in the world, as the United States of America. There's nothing better that we can do. So, obviously, the Biden administration, and I can say the truth or two it's, it's, it's rejecting a Latin American perspective on, on, you know, on for the for the US and Canada like foreign relationships policy. So, so, yes, I think that I'm low was very insistent and consistent in saying that this is about Latin America. This is a hemisphere that could be much more competitive. It's much more united, and the United States was just dismissing that argument by saying, it's, it's the whole world, and we, and we, you know, and we should continue to do it and, and Biden mentioned Africa, and you know it's and try to play that game and so I think in the case of the semiconductor is I think that, again, I think it's in the interest of the United States and Canada I think it's also an opportunity for Mexico. We got to be really careful on how those that comes down to and and what that comes down to because this means more about like poorly paid jobs for for Mexicans, and, and you know, like factories that are going to be oppressing workers, while the US is going to take a cut and you know selling and merchandising and the benefits of it. It's going to be, it's going to be a tradition of that relationship that I'm just trying to get, you know, away from, and, and, and, but, but yes, I agree that it's an opportunity and Latin America should should be more like continue to engage. And Bill, I mean, I, you know, I just listening to you speak is why, you know, I said was just almost cringe worthy to hear Trudeau, you know, reference NAFTA. Yeah, all of us involved in Latin America solidarity work and especially people like you and role who, you know, immigration and labor and on the particular on the US Mexico border I mean that's just, a cringe worthy statement to look at wanting to expand or recreate that sort of model. But that's why I asked if these people are being deported, and, and many, you know, necessarily nowadays get deported back to your country of origin your home country, you go to Mexico and other Central American countries. You know, it's almost like they're creating a, you know, a labor force for themselves. I mean, I kind of hate to say that but it's really what it seems like, especially now wanting to have a Western hemisphere semiconductor industry and absolutely I wouldn't be surprised if creating a belt of poverty at the US border or like, like, you know, something like that also in Central America as part of the as part of the plan of course I mean they've always talked about economic investments in communities and countries of origin to, you know, stop migration but we always know what that comes down to I mean it always comes to bad jobs more corporations coming in corporations are trying to take advantage of natural resources while exploiting the people and their places of origin so, so yes I mean, you know, I think I think that we as Latin American, you know, communities and countries we should stay together, continue fighting to make sure that none of this plans, turning to migration but at the opposite, you know, it pushes forward. It's something that it was good is that the three countries agreed on a 12 group of experts that are going to be exploring opportunities and a new, you know, projects to integrate into the integration of the region. And so this is a, this is a win for for I mean it's like this 12 experts from the three countries are going to be looking to ways in which, and you know integration can be further whether it's like migration or labor or, or, you know, education, and that's what I'm just been pushing for that we should we should be treated as equal. Historically, Mexico has been treated as less has been treated as the poor partner as the backyard and we need to end that relationship and so this. Now Mexico is the front yard too. I mean, that's what Biden has said but then again when it's been asked to treat as a sequel then he says like well you're just like another partner, you're not you're not part of the VIP. So, so that's that's what we need to continue to push. And integration rarely, you know includes people, but it's always, you know it's always marginalizing people from other countries, integration is for corporations it's for economic it's for capital, but never for people that's you know kind of we see in the military in the militarization of these of these migration policies. But I guess, for me it's interesting that you know certain countries are treated differently obviously politically Cuba, Venezuela, migrants from the caragua they you know they're going to get treated quite differently when you know if they cross the border because you know they're coming from countries that are considered, you know, totalitarian according to the United States. But I guess that the question we have is often when we're talking about migration, you know we talk about when people get to the border and what are we going to do with them that we treat them humanely that we incarcerate them whatever, but we never talk about the conditions that create the stabilization economic despair in countries that make people want to leave this most migrants don't want to leave their country they want to stay in their country when the economic or political situation is destabilized for many reasons, war interference, you know people, you know people migrate so if you take a look at Venezuela you never had a large migration of Venezuelans to to the north, until obviously you know the sanctions, the same with other countries so can you talk a little bit about that and what that means that was there anything discussed which I didn't see in this three amigos summit around you know, ending that destabilization and ending the sanctions that kind of stuff. Absolutely, I mean, the answer the short answer is no nothing was talked about and whenever it's been talked about just like you said it role I mean it's it's it's always the same USA investments. Jobs by by sending corporations to to the metropolitan areas, and there's no there's no talk about the US responsibility in the militarization of the region the proliferation of guns, the environmental devastation that you know has cost for long Canadian mining and other US businesses. And so, you know, like, just like you said I mean, who would like anyone in the audience just like I would encourage you know everyone to ask themselves to leave your home and everything you have with nothing in your hands to go to a new country. Nobody, nobody would do that and obviously the crisis that we're seeing right now is a consequences. It's a consequence of the of the, you know, regional regional policies because it's a, it's a trend it's not a random community in one specific place migrating it's the whole. The whole region, Mexico, and Central America, we must not forget that Mexican migrants continue to be the first numbers that were some of the first ones in migrating so it's not only Central America. And obviously, as you said, whenever the window it's open is just with a political hook because it's Venezuelans it's it's Cubans, it's Nicaraguans and and trying to, you know, offer them a way out of, you know, like, not democratic country so cold. And in reality I mean it's it's it's upside down. Yeah. Well, and it's Haiti now to Marco, Haiti's been lumped in with Cuba Venezuela and Nicaragua and what, what is that and, and much to our consternation or questioning the Mexican government is supporting US policy towards Haiti. And yeah, that's really sad. It's, it's a conundrum to a lot of us. Disappointment in the conundrum because there's so many things that we celebrate about the Mexican, the current government in Mexico. What is that about in your I mean I know I'm asking Anna. I think it's gang violence. I mean that's, you know, yeah, it's, it's, um, it's, um, it's, it's something that we all ask ourselves because that's completely, you know, a contradiction from the Mexican tradition of non intervention in any, you know, a foreign conflict, but it's also clear that as part of a, of a, you know, by national negotiation, I'm Los East Dominican Republic as part of a US territory or the influence. It's not necessarily Latin America. And so he's, he's, he's allowing the US to take control of that and, and, and following their lead and, and, you know, in exchange probably for the respect of, of, you know, what is he doing by supporting Cuban and other, and other countries across the region. So it's part of those negotiations. And yes, it's really unfortunate because that like, you know, Haiti and DR are like exact examples of what the consequences of us interventions are and particularly Haiti. It's a sad history of the US, you know, showing up, turning things upside down, you know, going against the will of the people, destroying their, their, their, their, their, you know, their countries and their societies and then failing again and doing again the same. So, so somebody should be stopping that and for them in this case, it's not in the plans of AMLO. Hey, Terry, are you there? Yeah, I'm perfect. I'm here. Sorry, sorry, everybody just multi multi multi tasking my technical so for the audience. Our conversation really went yesterday went into Haiti specific and I'm going to clip that because it's that Haiti section I'm going to clip it out and, and share it as a separate video because it's a great follow up to our anniversary broadcast or Independence Day broadcast on Haiti. So, I just want to just give a shout out to Marco Castillo global exchange he by the way is the co executive director of global exchange which is based out of San Francisco he lives between Mexico City and New York City and we were just really lucky to grab some of his time yesterday. So now we want all of you roll and I both want all of you to meet our wonderful friend Jim Hodgson to. We've done a lot of solidarity work the three of us our work has principally intersected in Venezuela but we've done a lot of work in Columbia together and Honduras as well, including solidarity work and election observation work Jim has a fantastic story that I made that I want to read to you if you give me just a minute, because role and I are just, you know, so honored to be his friend. So, let me tell you a bit about Jim. So Jim is a Canadian journalist with extensive experience in Latin America and the Caribbean Haiti to so we should get you to comment on that Jim. For four decades he has written for a variety of media and worked in the Dominican Republic for two years in the late 1980s and in Mexico for six years in the mid and late 1990s there's that great NAFTA experience. Jim has also been involved with Common Frontiers Raul's organization and the Mexican Action Network on free trade from 2000 to 2020. He worked with the United Church of Canada as Latin America Caribbean program coordinator. He currently is living in Chiapas, Mexico and that's like, you just moved there I think. So you need to unmute yourself. Just a month now. Yeah. Yeah. So, we, I guess Jim, you know I met you as a journalist reporting on elections in, in Venezuela and maybe we can start with you as what do you see as a journalist. Tell us a little bit about your Latin American and Caribbean journals because you've worked all over I say Venezuela because I met you there but as as your resume shows it's much more extensive than that. So what is your journalistic breakdown of the summit now that it's over we're not seeing a lot of it in the media and we're in fact Raul and I commented on that before we went live that, you know there's very little follow up there was a lot of fanfare before the 9th, 10th and 11th and now it's just kind of except for us of course. It's a curious thing and I as a journalist like trained as a journalist and even though I've worked kind of as a solidarity activist and use journalism skills for the sake of solidarity. I do go back to, to my training as a journalist and, you know, ask well what is really going on here. And so over the weekend I was reading the lead up to the, to the summit and the, and I felt like a lot of the writing was was poor. Repeating, you know, talk lines from the State Department or the Foreign Affairs Ministry in Canada or Mexico and not like asking serious questions or hard questions. Even on the immigration sets of issues. Like one of the things that disturbs me is like the President of Mexico Lopez Obrador consistently raises development questions. It goes to the push factors, why are people migrating. And even, you know, Biden went to El Paso visited the border on Sunday. But there's never in US or Canadian media. There are questions about why people are migrating. And I mean right now, one of the big answers to that is this one of the issues that brought us together. We three in Venezuela, the sanctions against Venezuela, the blockade against Cuba, the newer sanctions against Nicaragua. Haiti is a bit of a different question we come back to that but it but it's but it's related to nobody is talking about why people are leaving. We're not even talking right now about Guatemala Honduras and El Salvador which were the, the three largest contributors to the migration phenomenon on the US border. Another question why doesn't Canada step into assist Mexico with some of the migration sets of questions like in with Syrians in Jordan they went into the camps and interview people and you know kind of skimmed off the cream. Many of them are well trained professional people. You know, so I mean, I'm just saying I don't know that that would be the right answer, but I am saying why not ask the question. In the media before the summit wasn't even asking those kinds of questions and then. So, so then there was wasn't much coverage in Canada the United States I agree with you on that. In Mexico there was more and I feel privileged to have been here the past few days to sort of see how it gets reported in the Mexican media. And there's like, to two sides to this. I'm low, President Lopez over over the door is in a constant fight with the right wing media, the kind of old mainstream. And that's a TV a stick, the print media that are their subjects or their allies, the constant the criticism over everything, anything and and so the the other thing that happened over the weekend was the arrest of a prominent drug trafficker. And so the media in North America said, huge gunfights in Mexico, Mexico's dangerous airports are closed and without saying it's Sinaloa State Kulia Khan City, some impacts in neighboring states sonora to the north and I read to the south but that it was all. Mexico is screwing up the drug war, rather than. And again, I don't know that this is the right answer but rather than looking seriously what actually happened. They got a guy who was manufacturing fentanyl and exporting that to the United States, they got one guy I mean the whole system is still in place but you know so so I guess I guess I just was like right off the bat I was reacting to how the media were not covering adequately this potentially important event. And so, yeah, I hope we in the conversation we can come back to some of the, the excellent questions that you were raising with with Marco. The relationship with the rest of Latin America that the, the, the, what's what's going on with the proposals around intervention in Haiti but I mean you're on that. We should comment on that, because you have so much experience and Haiti so why don't you expand on that. Just, just a little context I started going to Haiti right at the beginning of my involvement in Latin America back in the 80s so I was there first in 1984 devalue was still in power the dictator. And then I lived in the Dominican Republic and went across to Haiti in 87 during a time so the dictator had fallen and there was a moment of this tremendous opening up of civil society the trade unions. He just seized the cathedral and had like a teach in for three days in the cathedral. There was this like effervescence in Haitian society and I, you know I could feel the energy, and that energy, three years later turned into the election of Jean Bertrand de Aristide, the priest who was kind of one of the, the leaders of a sector in the popular movements and so, so I was there in 1990s and election observer and then the coup happened and then into more interventions and everything that seemed like was being tried for good got subverted I think by an alliance between certain people in the United States and these six super rich families that kind of run everything. Those six super rich families are in league with the, the, what I call the gangs. They're not that the, it's not that the gangs operate autonomously it's that they are agents of people with more power and more money. They do dirty work but they're they're working for others and and that, again, is talked about in Haiti, but it never gets talked about in the mainstream media at all. There's a situation now where these proposals are being made. You know, some of the media with global male specifically with global male said Biden is asking Trudeau to lead an intervention. And that's that's been going on for for a few months now. Trudeau seems to be not jumping to that date, which is probably a good thing. And what may happen would be some sort of more technical kind of intervention like what they've done before and it didn't work with beefing up the Haitian police but it but it satisfies a political urge if it doesn't resolve Haiti's real problems. All of this goes on while there is a perfectly valid and you've already talked about this in this program is a perfectly valid civil society proposal. There's a group named after a hotel where they met that's been on the table for more than two years that would get at some of those issues around power and violence, and how to get to free and fair elections. Finally, the last several elections have not been free and fair they've been manipulated by again that that rich sector and you get these results that don't meet the expectations of the Haitian people. Again, like around Haiti, taking 30,000 migrants out of the large pool isn't going to solve the problems. Fixing the police isn't going to solve the problems. What we need to kind of go back to are the proposals that come from people's organizations that come together and talk about this stuff and come up with real viable proposals. That's where we need to get back to. How do we. How do we take that, because certainly the audience watching this program knows that's where my work is we come back to social movements, labor movements consistent that is a consistent theme and almost every episode it comes up to and roll that is specifically your work. And I mean, you know, I think at one point, we were all talking that. Well, you brought this up that in our conversation with Marco that this wasn't a civil society meeting. It was a meeting of heads of state. There was no, there was no one at any of those meetings that was outside of the business world the political world. There were no, there were no indigenous people and their issues represented at this trace amigos summit, there were no labor representatives there were no women's issues brought up it was really to me came down to being a business summit, and a continuation of neoliberal practices and how do we do that specifically with Trudeau mentioning investment like NAFTA, with interest in the semiconductor industry now of course most of us know that the lithium in Mexico has been nationalized and a certain person is convoluted with the energy grid but that is in the process of being nationalized, Mexico's really for is really focused on national sovereignty under this president natural resource sovereignty and creating an economy beneficial to the majority of its that seems antithetical to me to the opinions and does and the wish list or the to do list that Trudeau and Biden brought to the summit on January 10. It seems that there's, and perhaps on low is is trying to be the bridge between what he and other presidents throughout Latin America and the Caribbean want particularly the newly elected governments. Most people throughout the hemisphere in the last 16 months did vote for those three things again national sovereignty natural resource sovereignty and an economy benefiting the majority of the citizens. The economies are like one step to the left social democrat and some of the, you know philosophy is is revolutionary left as a spectrum of economies that people voted for, or the hope of creating. So, what really was this summit, and maybe, maybe it really. I think it's really talking about it, because it kind of, it seems to me and I say nobody's talking about it now because it really did seem to be this, you know, choker between on low, and what his vision is, and what he seems to be at least standing firm. And then what the other two North American countries want. Yeah, yeah, I think, I think what I'm low has proposed, and I think it's worth more serious consideration then has got certainly from the United States or Canada is is a kind of a development, a new kind of development but better development than the past in certainly in Central America but but I think the same prescription could be offered elsewhere. You know, it would be it would have to be a people's led development, the kind of conversation that they had at the Salak meeting in Mexico City. Almost a year ago, you know that that to me of 2021. Is that when it was. Yeah, it was. Yeah, so it. That that kind of approach is, I think, closer to those heart now, he had to agree. He had to live in a conversation where where Biden wanted to talk about migration and and Trudeau wanted to talk about energy and and Trudeau with Biden. And I kind of had only one thing on his mind and that was the, this whole thing of the US industrial strategy. So, so this kind of buy American or buy at home and and like one other thing that was like completely overlooked was that the Mexico and Canada had a bit of a victory over the United States in one of those trade. The proper words here that the trade arbitration panels, exactly over that US protectionism. And, but, you know, you look in vain for reporting of that in in North America, it is in the Mexican media but not in the North American media. So, so, I think for for Mexico and Canada always dealing with the, you know, what Trudeau's father used to talk about the elephant, the elephant in the bed he said it's like you're dealing with the United States the massive power the United States the economic power. And from Trudeau's perspective he went in like with a kind of a minimal list and an AMLO to avoid deeper conflict. And, and they both I think they both kind of came away with at least things didn't get worse. And so, I found it interesting like animals rhetoric with with Biden was really interesting like reviving the 1930s Roosevelt's good, good neighbor policy was interesting but Biden immediately responded with this were the with the largest aid provider in the world, but a lot of that is military aid. It's not what I was talking about at all. Like over 70% of its military. Yeah. So is that is that will be naive or is he is he sort of not getting the sense. I mean, it seems like he's trying to play both sides, you know he wants sort of Salak and that integration but Salak has a very different vision of integration in Latin America than the American integration that the three amigos is proposing, and you know obviously I'm lost trying to play both sides but you know I think it's going to become quite difficult for him to continue that and I think doing things like, in my opinion throwing Haiti under the bus in order to acquiesce the interests of Canada US I think is a real problem. And I think as you know the Cold War heats up in Europe and we see that there's you know that that economic hub that we're building in North America, you know, the economic economy is very crucial. It is really in my opinion a way of kind of cutting out China investment and, you know, Russian investment in the region. And I think that's going to come to a head pretty soon where, you know, Mexico probably will have to make a decision, because at the Salak meeting they had the Chinese president there virtually, and it was really about how are we going to integrate, you know, Asian, you know, the Asian investment in the region. You're going to have to come to a reckoning because pretty soon it's going to be like, you cannot do that. You're not going to be able to sell cars in the North American market if they have any kind of Chinese investment if they have any kind of so I think he's going to you know he's really needs to make a decision or figure out where he sits, is he either sitting at Salak table or is he sitting in the, you know, Coombson North American trade table, and because they are two very different tables and they have two very different sides to each other. One is militarization I think as you said, and the other is really about regional economic and political and social integration, genuine anyways. Well, yeah, you know, I think we all kind of stand in one place in that that conversation, you know, for like, like each each country needs to be able to be free to make the choices that it that are good for for its people I mean right now. There's some initiatives by Russia in Africa that the United States doesn't like and I think that's why Biden Biden mentioned Africa specifically the other day. You know so so so at the same time as there's this sort of us. The US still talks about globalization but what they mean is us domination of the global economy and trade trade routes trade patterns and so on and but this the bricks agenda is still very very much alive the Salak agenda is a different one and so the multi lateral world or unilateral world. We're in that hot and heavy debate right now, and my fear is a bit that the that the US will force will use. We're trying to force other countries through through trade rules or sanctions or what have you to follow its line. It's at any cost and rather than allowing rather than being a good neighbor, recognizing Latin America is not its backyard or its front yard it's its own yard, each country is sovereign. Respect people. Yeah, this is, I think that you're talking about neighbor just makes me think of fences and you know there's a 3000 mile fence a border wall, you know, a line on the map between the United States and, and Mexico or even you know, goes North America, Mexico to the south of US and Canada, and sometimes we don't take that into account. When it comes to, you know, economic military foreign policy issues, you know, Mexico has a different place, literally on the map where it sits compared to countries further south. When you have a neighbor as as aggressive as the United States there's issues that you know that you can't help but define your politics, unless you know you're really prepared to do something really really aggressive so you know he has that to contend with he can't just ignore these two countries to the north he does and I agree with you Jim, and I would say again I know I've shared this with all of you watching I've shared this is a couple times that salox summit in Mexico City, September 18 2021 it's on YouTube it was five hours plus in length I think one full day. Really really some good viewing to see where so many presidents and foreign ministers stand and I would say with the exception, even, even the right wing ones are unified on some of these trade things and on health things as well. There are a couple right wingers I think Uruguay and Uruguay were real holdouts real almost nasty I would say, but there is an integration that already exists. I personally feel it's a Latin America's integrated to a degree I've never seen in my lifetime, principally based on on humanitarianism, and that coming out of the lack of response to cobit 19 specifically by the United States but the global north, in general. But you know when you have such a huge prosperous nation to the north of you and you get very, very little to no assistance. That really made everybody sort of relate to each other in a, in a way I haven't seen, you know it's beyond politics now to a certain it's beyond politics and beyond economics and it's and there's that humanitarian variable in in the relationships between the Latin American and Caribbean countries now, with the exception of how people look at Haiti. And we say he always gets thrown over the bus that's a whole nother convert a whole nother conversation but. Yeah, there's a there's a different. There's a there's a different feel in the air. Yeah, and I think, you know, I had a quick look at. There's an Argentinian newspaper today that I like Pachina dosa. It's a bit like la jornada in Mexico City so you know, fairly left and you know they cover Peru differently they cover Brazil differently. And it's more deeply into what's driving, you know, both the right and the the popular protests in the pro case the popular protest what's going on in Puno Cusco in the in the highlands and and then looking at in the fascinating article for somebody who's worked a lot of my time in the religious sector, a really interesting article about right wing religion in Brazil and and the the presence of the that mindset in the people who assaulted the the Congress, the other day. Just like you. I feel so privileged that I can get access to a much broader range of news, news information than what comes through, you know, the CDC in Canada or even PBS in the United States, you know you all know this too. But I really encourage people to look as broadly as as you can for different voices. The real the real news is what's going on in the streets of Peru right now the real news is what's going on. Like Lula, the newly elected president of Brazil, I mean his response to that coup or a coup attempt to take over the Congress is to mobilize the popular movements again you know he goes to his base. I'm low here in Mexico, always says you know the mainstream media won't cover me but they're these social networks, and people, you know so what's up, whatever he says gets those morning talks every single morning which Biden and Trudeau got a little bored with that did come out of the media that he has those morning talks on Twitter, every morning. Yeah, I watch those, not every day but quite often to and it's like, he gets criticized for those like it takes up a lot of time and space, and maybe it gets a bit dull, but it's a way of being accountable with the people. Because he gets his ministers up there and they have to say, Well, this is what we're doing in security this is what we're doing with the military this is what we're doing with that Guardian us you know this is what happened in Sinaloa. You know, and, and you know he asks them questions they kind of put on the spot. Wow, I would love to see other cabinet ministers do that in other countries with their with their boss. I saw of go ahead roll. No, I said it's also a great way of breaking through sort of that mainstream media that kind of controls the message as you said German, and it's not really reporting on the issues or not in depth anyways and it's kind of very superficial so it really allows like I was doing folks for on the Peru issue and really in the rural areas it's the community radials that gets the message across because most people many people don't trust the mainstream media anymore they find that it's, you know they're not doing their job but not covering issues critically they're not you know they're not at you know at the events. And so yeah people are really, you know going to social media going to community radials going to alternative media, just to be able to get and understand really what's going on and a lot of these complicated issues. I mean, I will say I'll say again I think we did all see in the mainstream media that was it Wednesday or after the, the post trace amigo summit, where Omlo, you know, did one of his more, maybe it was Wednesday morning did his talk and you could see Trudeau and rolling their eyes just really not used to that sort of communication. And, you know, they do go on lengthy but that's a style thing and you know, and it appeals to to his, his people. And so I yeah it was just I mean to me that was just another just another contrast within, you know the summit itself that that type of communication was anathema to these two other leaders they just didn't, you know, they can get it to me that kind of a lot of the other things up. So you know you guys we've been talking for almost an hour and our audience has been so fabulous they've stayed with us and a shout out to those of you on the convo couch. You just been really engaged in the chat tonight and I've tried to keep up with all of you. And can I just mention that all of the information for all of our speakers including Jim who's joined us now in the, in the program description and you click on and it says more. Everything's in there. A description of the program. All the links for everybody's social media and and links to all the organizations that everybody works for as well so and and a shout out to you Karen for for helping me keep up with all of those links. So I appreciate that. So what should we, what should we share with the audience and are in with a few minutes of closing. I mean is this is this is this summit going to continue. Is it, I will just share my little quick summary, to me, it was a demonstration of old school versus new school and Jim you said unilateral versus, you know, multi multilateral. To me it was a real example of, you know, old world that perhaps is fading or it's going to reconstruct as the international community or preservation of the West, and this clear emergence of what's happening. And I think it's the growth of the US border, clear emergence of a new, a new philosophy way of building the Americas. I'm curious just to hear a little bit from Jim around Canada's foreign policy towards Haiti, because I think Canada plays a unique role in that and I know Jimmy have a lot of experience in that. Canada's role in Haiti is quite unique in terms of how it, you know, deals with it and, you know, Canada's going to be sending military vehicles training the police. It's always been making sure that you know popular democratic movements don't succeed in Haiti so maybe talk a little bit about that and then whatever else you want and then I'll just. Yeah, yeah, thanks for coming back to that I just quickly I mean one thing that did impress me was like. I don't know September October it was like, lead a military intervention lead a military intervention lead a military intervention and then people like us and the Haiti Solidarity groups in Canada, protested and it's kind of like some of the groups are maybe divided 20 years ago or a dozen years ago are kind of coming together and they're on the same page right now and saying no military intervention, the government seems to have heard that and that's why they're talking now about police and so on I don't know that that's the right answer I really doubt it, but I know I do know that the right answer is the civil society one, let me be clear, the Montana group proposal. That one, that's what we should be pressing for is like listen to the voices of Haitian civil society and the Canadian government still hasn't got that message. They're on this police track and I think they need to get off the police track and onto Haitian lead solutions proposals for solutions because I think that's, that's that's that's that worked in 1987 and 1990. That's again, many times since then but hasn't been allowed to. It needs to be, that's the key word isn't it hasn't been allowed to, hasn't been allowed. You know the solutions that come from Haitian trade unions and women's movement and the human rights organizations, the farmers organizations, those are the groups that I know well and Haiti and they're the ones that are proposing that they call it a pasarelle like a boarding, a boarding ramp to get onto a ship like towards elections that's what they want and and I think they should be heated and not these militaristic solutions that the that ultra rich group needs to be dealt with the gangs will need to be dealt with but the way forward to dealing with those issues is by hearing the voices of civil society. So and somebody in our chat was asking me, this was quite a while ago up in the chat about what you know about solutions and I think that's what I put in the chat social movements and thank you Jim for. Yeah, it's going to, it's going to be us people that make change. Haiti Montana group in Google and you'll get the civil society proposals fairly fairly easily. But we have clear. Yeah, I'm sorry, I'll go ahead. No, go ahead. Go ahead. I'm going to say we both have, I mean, both Canada and Mexico support. At least in general terms, US policy towards Haiti. And that's the. So what's the link again Jim Haiti Montana. Yeah, like, look for the innocent in the search mode, just look for Haiti Montana group, or, yeah, or Haiti Montana civil society. Yeah, you'll find proposals there and I could send you a chat. I could send you a decent article about it later. Okay, I'll share that with everyone if you do. Yeah, okay. So, I enter, I enter, I enter. No, no problem. I think, you know, my analysis of this it's it's pretty much a lot of the same old, really, I didn't hear much. It all sounds really good on paper. If you look at the working plan that Canada Mexico put together its reconciliation with indigenous people, gender equality, women's empowerment, anti racism, all these really great sounding documents. But the reality is, you know, Canada needs an independent foreign policy from the US, and it has to be focused on, you know, human rights, labor rights, but also democracy. We are, we have stopped supporting democratic social movements in the region. And we really want to support only democratic processes that benefit our economic and political interests. And a perfect example are, you know, countries like Peru right as you know, if you get some of the overthrows of government that we think is too leftist is corrupt, whatever, as long as that current government is to our political economic interest and we will support. So I think that's where we're, you know, there was no talk about democracy real democracy. If there was we would be supporting civil society and Haiti, as Jim said that would be the key thing. And that's exactly what Canada the US they don't want. I won't speak from Mexico because I know they have a different vision, but really that's what they don't want. They don't want civil society public movements controlling the economic and political agenda these countries because they know that won't equal, you know, investment rights and won't equal corporate rights which is what Canada the US really are pushing forward in these traits and these kind of regional integration talks. And so, for me it's a lot of the same of the same old same old, nothing much has changed and it all sounds great but in reality it's the same interest, militarization, corporate interest, you know, capital flows. That's really the most important components for Canada the US and to some extent Mexico unfortunately as well. Yeah, this goes back to what we were saying at the at the outset and with Marco is like looking at causes of migration if migration is Biden's big problem. Then he needs to have a different approach to Haiti needs to have a different approach to to Venezuela and Cuba. He needs to have a different approach around development he needs to get rid of the sanctions he needs to support civil society proposals that that would employ more people and guarantee them better, better salaries than these semiconductor supply chain things that they are addressing you know it's just, we can do this. There's more on the war against China. Taking that part of their economy away from them and bringing it home. Yeah, yeah. Can I just throw out well quickly mentioned, you know, Marco and immigration and for the audience. Marco had a great article that he wrote was published in Newsweek on the seventh or eighth so a day or two before the trace amigos. And it is called solving immigration starts and this follows right up on your comment, Jim. The article is solving immigration starts with helping families feel safe at home. And that is educationally safe healthcare safe violence safe, all of those things that we associate with, you know, a secure and form of a quality quality life. And the article goes into all of that that also is in the program notes the link to that. So, so, um, maybe we should wrap it up. And I'm so, I'm so thankful that all of you were able to join so we spun to co host with Raul and Jim, just what a. What a delight to finally see and talk with you it's been so long so. Yeah, yeah. We'll have to find each other in Mexico City sometime. Yes. I'll let you know that'd be great. Yeah, I'd love to see you there. So, and then also a big shout out to to Marco Castillo of global extremes, who graciously gave us role and I his time yesterday. Everyone, thank you for joining a really great chat tonight so I really appreciate you tuning in and and being engaged on all these issues throughout Latin America it's really nice to have a space and a real shout out to the combo couch for letting us to join their YouTube channel of, I don't know I think there's almost 50,000 of you subscribers and it's really nice to have a space where we can go into some of these issues in Latin America and the Caribbean in depth, and, and from a non us mainstream perspective so really really thankful for that. And for our the other YouTube channels we have access to code pink action and popular resistance or, and of course to all of our broadcast partners. And let me just read them out to all of you again. Black Alliance for peace Haiti America's team code pink common frontiers, Council on hemispheric affairs friends of Latin America in a religious task force on Central America Massachusetts peace action, and task force on the Americas and popular resistance for housing our project and, and allowing us to work with all these terrific broadcast partners we have a really wonderful coalition built around this project and and everyone contributes so enormously and and common frontiers with rural Burrano is one of those partners so. So everyone thanks for tuning in and please be sure to watch us next Thursday 730pm Eastern 430pm Pacific, and you can also catch the audio as a podcast on Apple Spotify and Google so. So we'll see you very much Terry. Oh, thank you. We'll see you all thanks Jim. Take good care.