 Good evening from Johannesburg. My name is Moki Makura. I am the Executive Director of Africa No Filter, and I'm your moderator for today's program, which is on the G7 Partnership for Women's Digital Financial Inclusion in Africa. Welcome everybody, and thank you very much for joining us. So let's get straight to it. The world has changed and everything feels very different. But it's been just over a year now since the partnership was launched under the French G7 presidency. The partnership's goal is simple. It's to bring over 400 million people, many of whom are women, into the digital economy for the very first time. In 2019, which does feel like an absolute lifetime ago, the G7 partnership delivered a blueprint to the G7, which included a report that identified five key areas in which G7 countries could partner with African countries. I just want to take a few moments to remind us all of what those recommendations were in that report. The first was to build interoperable digital payment infrastructure. The second was to build equitable digital identification systems. The third was to update financial regulations to make space for these new products and services. And the fourth was to help countries identify the right investments and policies. And the fifth one, the most important one, was to prioritize gender. And we're going to be hearing a lot more about why this fifth priority is absolutely critical. So another key part of the partnership was around accountability. And this piece is being led by the United Nations Sustainable Development Solutions Network. And they will be reporting back on progress against the goals every year. And those goals are more important and more urgent than ever before because of the COVID-19 pandemic, which in six months has wiped out more than five years of progress in global development. So wherever in the world you are sitting today, you are probably feeling and you are definitely seeing the impact of COVID. So today our program is under the theme of catalyzing digital financial services for women across Africa, supporting recovery, resilience and innovation during COVID-19. May not be a terribly catchy heading, but it spells out the themes for today's session. And we're bringing together leadership in the public, private, development and academic sectors to discuss financial inclusion and economic resiliency for women in Africa. So let me briefly take you through the program today and what you can expect the next hour and a half. And we will have today four brief keynote speeches, followed by a panel. That's pretty much what we're doing today. We will first hear from Her Majesty, Queen Matzma of the Netherlands, followed by President Cyril Ramaphosa of South Africa. And then we have Melinda Gates, who's the co-chair of the Melinda Gates Foundation and the French ambassador to the UN, Nicolas de Revere. So each of them will deliver brief remarks and then we'll move on to the panel. And our panel today is made up of representatives from two African governments, from academia. We have a regulator in the house and we have somebody representing the private sector. And they will all be providing more practical insights about the progress and the challenges we're seeing on the ground. I will introduce the panel a little bit later in the program. So let's get straight to our first keynote, Her Majesty, Queen Matzma of the Netherlands. She's going to be speaking first in her capacity as the United Nations Secretary General Special Advocate for Inclusive Finance for Development. And as a special advocate, Queen Matzma is a leading global voice on advancing universal access to financial services. As she does this by raising awareness, by serving as a convener, and encouraging leaders to take action. So please welcome Queen Matzma. Thank you, Madame Acura. Thank you very much for having me today here. It is really a pleasure to be with you today alongside Mrs. Melinda Gates, an esteemed co-champion of the G7 partnership for women's digital and financial inclusion in Africa. I'm also happy that Nicolas de Rivière, Ambassador and Permanent Representative to the United Nations for France will be saying some words also on behalf of Minister Lemaire. And I would like to thank the panelists, Minister Lawson, Minister Tolina, Dr. Undulo, Dr. Suri and Mrs. Obonai for sharing really your experiences with us today. And also I would like to thank President of South Africa, Sir Ramaphosa, for his video intervention. The critical development challenges facing Africa today, including safe water and sanitation, fragile health systems and economic informality, made the continent particularly vulnerable to COVID-19. The crisis has caused severe output losses, which have led to significant food and employment shocks. African women have borne the brunt of all of these shocks. 89% of women in sub-Saharan Africa work informally, a sector with limited savings and capital, making them particularly vulnerable to economic shocks. Also, women on basis tend to be smaller, with less access to financial resources compared to men. So new data suggests that in several sub-Saharan countries, about 60% of women-led small businesses have lost their sources of income, three times more than businesses led by men. In response to the pandemic, over 200 countries have expanded social protection systems, many using digital payments to provide transfers directly into bank accounts or mobile bonds. South Africa, Tobu, Burkina Faso, Zambia and Nigeria all scale to appropriately, specifically targeting women. These programs provide an economic lifeline for very vulnerable people and are really the key entry point to the formal financial system. Digital payments are therefore key to COVID-19 response and are really essential for future recovery efforts. Now, whilst financial inclusion is particularly important for women's economic environment, today, 60% of the 400 million financially excluded adults in the whole continent are actually women. So what is standing in our way to make digital financial inclusion for women a reality? First of all, access to a mobile telephone and internet connection is an extremely necessary starting point. But South Sahara Africa has a 41% gender gap with regards to mobile internet use. This disparity could be reduced. Also, having regulation in place that allows for mobile money and agents that are close to where women live and work is really an important prerequisite to use digital financial services for COVID-19 response. There still also remains a 9% gender gap in ID between men and women in South Sahara Africa. People without a government-recognized proof of identity often cannot open accounts and are shut off of the phoba financial system. Dear customer due diligence processes are really needed to quickly own more beneficiaries for mobile wallets and smaller value accounts. And lastly but not least, casino protection policies are also key to ensure that the use and access to digital financial services does not increase the digital divide or gender inequality. Now, without these prerequisites in place, countries could be left behind relying on cash-based manual systems that are extremely costly and prone to leakages. These enablers will also provide an entrance for women participation on digital economy including e-commerce platforms and telehealth services. Now, of course, the crisis response has not stopped at payments only. Governments have supported businesses with emergency credit lines and both are the reach of credit guarantee programs. These measures help businesses weather the storm of course. But it is important these programs target those entrepreneurs who lead the most and are made available through financial institutions that cater to them such as microfinance institutions and cooperatives. The role of FinTech sector is in supporting COVID-19 response really proves critical. They play an important role in developing tailored and accessible financial products. These include remittances which are an important lifeline during the crisis but also smaller flexible working capital loans. Therefore, to create an innovative and safe regulatory environment for these new actors is more important than ever. The G7 partnership offers an important opportunity to unlock digital financial inclusion for women so that women can live more productive and have safer lives. We must now scale up action through the partnership with specific targets in order to monitor and accelerate progress. I would really like to thank again, Melinda Gates and the French government for the co-championship of this partnership and of course the commitment of African policy makers to make digital financial inclusion for women a reality. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Your Highness, for helping us set the scene for this discussion. I think some of those data points you gave us were quite eye-opening and the complexity of getting cash to vulnerable groups on this scale shows the importance of having digital public goods like ID systems, payment systems and financial products in place. And so we are going to hear more from the countries themselves on how they are navigating these challenges. Thank you very much, Your Highness. Our next speaker is President Cyril Ramaphosa of South Africa, who is also the current chair of the African Union. In South Africa, under his leadership, gender equality is a national priority and he's also supporting global efforts through generation equality, which is an ambitious effort to achieve gender equality by 2030. I'd like to welcome President Ramaphosa, who I believe has sent a film. Thank you. Your Excellencies, as South Africa and as the chair of the African Union, we fully support the G7 partnership for women's digital financial inclusion in Africa. By giving women the tools to become financially secure and independent, we are essentially investing in a society in which women's rights to dignity, security and financial empowerment is secured. We must enable women to take advantage of technological advances to start their own businesses, to trade and to seek employment. The coronavirus pandemic has had a dramatic effect on economic activity on the continent and around the world. Its impacts will be hardest felt by women, many of whom are employed and operate in the informal sector. Women must have greater access to affordable financial services. They must have access to working capital, credit lines, insurance and to digital tools such as mobile banking platforms. Governments must invest in the financial education of women and girls. In support of greater economic and financial inclusion, South Africa has made a commitment of $500,000 to the African Women Impact Fund, which seeks to empower women financial leaders. We have also announced that 40% of all public procurement should be reserved for women-owned businesses and we are working with the AU member states to develop similar policy guidelines across the continent. We believe that a digitally enabled economy with a strong emphasis on gender equality has the potential to be transformative, to be fair and sustainable and competitive. Africa continues to develop its ICT infrastructure to advance greater access to technology. Through digital platforms, a greater number of women will be able to have access to funding and online banking, fulfilling a need that traditional banking services are unable to meet. Unless women are brought into the mainstream of the economy, they will forever continue to bear the brunt of exclusion and marginalization and be vulnerable to abuse and exploitation. A nation that empowers its women is a strong nation and it's also a sustainable nation. It is our wish that world leaders use this occasion to reaffirm their commitment to the partnership for women's digital financial inclusion in Africa. I thank you. Let me just thank President Ramaphosa for your comments. Thank you very much and it's really great to see a male world leader prioritizing women's economic empowerment and gender equality. I'm extremely happy to hear about the money that's gone into this Africa Women's Impact Fund and the move for 40% of public procurement. I mean for public procurement to go to 40% of women. Or I think that was the piece. But anyway, I would now like to introduce Melinda Gates, who is the co-chair of the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. She is a tireless campaigner for gender equality who uses her voice to elevate the issues that women face across the world. She's also famous for putting her money where her mouth is. And over the years, she has donated billions of dollars to developments, especially related to gender. Welcome Melinda and thank you. Thanks, Moki. Hello everybody. Thank you so much for joining us today. And I would like to thank Her Majesty Queen Maxima, His Excellency, President Ramaphosa and Minister Day-Ravey for all they're doing to champion women's digital financial inclusion. I'd also like to thank today's panelists for joining us. You represent the leadership and collaboration we need to alleviate poverty, accelerate gender equality, and boost financial inclusion. And my thanks to UN Sustainable Development Solutions Network for bringing us all together today. So COVID-19 began as we know as a medical emergency, but it hasn't stayed that way. The pandemic has led to the greatest global economic crisis since the Great Depression. And this crisis is landing squarely on the shoulder of women. Early estimates suggest that women are nearly twice as likely to lose their jobs as men. And low-income women are even at greater risk. Low-income women in low-income countries are at the greatest risk. These are the garment workers, the food sellers who have to close their shops because very few people are gathering in outdoor markets. And the data shows that these women cannot just wait out the pandemic. After the Ebola epidemic in West Africa, studies found that men's income rebounded fairly quickly, but women's on the other hand did not. Since COVID-19 slowed the wheels of our global economy, 37 million people have fallen back into extreme poverty. And I worry that those 37 million will stay there even after the pandemic is over, especially the women. As an optimist, I do think there's hope. We can avert the worst case scenario, but only if leaders like you here today prioritize women in your response. One way to do this is to deliver emergency cash transfers to citizens and directly to women. These transfers can be effective at preventing the pandemic from locking women into the cycle of poverty. But first, the cash has to get into women's pockets. And too often it doesn't. It ends up in the pockets of their husbands or other male family members or nowhere at all. Governments don't send the money because they don't know the women exist, or there aren't ways to deliver the funds directly to the accounts that the women control. And that's why any discussion about women's economic empowerment must also be a conversation about digital payment systems and digital IDs. We must focus on the infrastructure to digitize, direct and deliver this economic support to the women who need it most. We have an opportunity here, but we need to take advantage of it. That's why we are having this discussion about women's economic empowerment. What happens in response to pandemics becomes part of history. If we were meeting in New York this week, I'd point you toward Central Park because city officials started planning the park right after a cholera outbreak. They thought at that time that more open space might prevent the spread of disease. So here we are a century and a half later. If anything is going to be redesigned, it's the map of our financial system. This year we are witnessing the fastest, farthest reaching transfer of cash payments from governments to the people in history. Will women benefit equally? None of us know that yet. But I hope that if we do our jobs right, they will, and that it will set a precedent for all the years to come. Thank you for so much for your work in this area. It's so vastly important. Thank you very much, Belinda, for that. I think the point for me is that women's economic empowerment is intrinsically linked to digital financial services. So thank you for sharing that with us and for reminding us about the urgency of the situation and the need to focus on the women who need it most. Right, so our next and final speaker was supposed to be the French economy and finance minister Bruno Le Maire, who is a gender and financial inclusion champion. But many of you may know that he was recently diagnosed with COVID and is currently in isolation, so we wish him a full recovery. In his place, we have the French ambassador to the UN, Ambassador Riviere, who will deliver a few words on behalf of Minister Le Maire. Welcome, Ambassador. Good morning, good afternoon. I'm very pleased to be here with you together with our Majesty, Queen Maxima, President Ramaphosa, and also Melinda Gates. As you just said, Bruno Le Maire, the Minister of Economy in France has just got caught COVID-19 and he cannot be with us today. And I will say a few words on his behalf. First, I would like to say that gender equality is a key priority for France in its national and international policies. As you know, several ambitious deliverables have been launched during the French G7 presidency last year to promote and advance women's and girls' rights. And we will continue to enhance our actions on this issue, especially through a feminist diplomacy. We are almost one year after the release of the report G7 Partnership for Women's Digital Financial Inclusion in Africa, which was presented at the Finance Minister meeting in July 2019 during the French presidency of the G7. This report highlighted synergies between various public policies to reach this goal. Regulation, payment, interoperability, digital identity research. Since then, the health and economic consequences of the pandemics showed us that digitalization is more crucial than ever to avoid the transmission of disease, help vulnerable groups, proceed to government transfers for social protections, do health payments, or mobilize money for a relative. Women have been especially hit by the COVID-19 crisis and its consequences. They are at the front line of the response to the pandemic. Women support most of the domestic tax, including healthcare, and are overrepresented in the service sector. Moreover, they encounter higher risks of revenues lost due to their overrepresentation in the informal sector, according to ILO in Africa, 90% of working women are in the informal sector, which deprived them from social protection. But the pandemic appears also as a game changer and either occasion to explore new digital approaches. In this regard, Togo developed a very innovative welfare system, Novici, which we are proud to support through the French Development Agency. Novici provides a big mantra of support with mobile money to informal workers and women accounts for 65% of the beneficiaries. Tina Lawson, who will also take the floor, will explain better than I. From this project and other realizations, I have to draw lessons to build back better. What was already a development challenge became an indispensable element of the economic and social response to the crisis, both for short-term relief and long-term recovery. According to studies, digital finance has the potential to provide access to financial services for 1.6 billion people in emerging economies, more than half of them women. It could increase the volume of loans extended to individuals and businesses by $2.1 trillion, as well as allow government to save $110 billion per year. This is why France encourages international donors and African governments to incorporate investments in digital financial inclusion as part of their COVID-19 response to foster more inclusive, secure and resilient economies. Thank you very much. Thank you very much, Ambassador Riviere, and especially for that call to action for donors. And it's wonderful to see France is leading the way in this partnership. Thank you. And that brings us to the end of our session of keynote speakers. So to Queen Maxima, to President Ramaphosa, to Melinda Gates, and to you, Ambassador Riviere, thank you all for your vision, for your leadership, and for your support of women's financial inclusion on the continent. So we're about to move on to the panel discussion now, which will bring some deeper context to many of the issues that our speakers today have already covered. But before that, we're going to show you a brief film that puts this work into context. It's the voices of the women we are working to empower through financial inclusion, and we really hope it inspires you and keeps you pushing. I need to keep all money in my bag, which is risky, but this time I'm not worried because I have all the money on my phone. It has made business easier and safer for me because I don't need to carry cashier. I can pay using my savings or I can pay using my deposit. It simplified the time and costs of trade for me. I needed to empower myself rather than relying on the parents alone. When I have an official national ID, I feel secure and safe as a woman, as a trader. My business has helped me as a single parent and I've managed to maintain my family. I can help my siblings, my friends. Women form the bedrock of our homes and by extension our society. So if we help them grow their businesses, we'll be able to have a very good economy overall. Thanks for that film. And women do indeed form the bedrock of our homes and by extension our society. So let's move on to the panel now. We have five speakers and about maybe to unpack some of the progress and the challenges we are seeing on the ground. The panel will be picking up on the issues that our speakers have touched on today. And if you do have burning questions, please use the Q&A function and I'll incorporate them where I can. So I'd love to ask all of the speakers to turn their cameras on. I see some of you are doing that already as I introduced you. So first up is Professor Tavneet Suri, who is a Professor of Applied Economics at MIT and the Scientific Director for Africa at J-PAL. She's done considerable research on digital money with a focus on Kenya. Then we have the former Governor of the Central Bank of Tanzania, Professor Beno Ndulu, who is the Co-Director of the Pathways for Prosperity Commission, which sits at Oxford University. And the organization examines how countries can turn technological change into opportunities for inclusive development. Professor Ndulu is also a high-level advisor to the World Bank ID40 Initiative. Next, we have the Minister of Posts in Digital Economy and Technical Innovation for the Republic of Togo, Minister Sina Lawson. And then we have the State Minister, Ministry of Finance in Ethiopia, Doctor Tolina Apologies. And representing the voice of the private sector, we have Patricia Obonai, the CEO of Vodafone in Ghana. So welcome, everybody. Thank you for joining us. So let's get started with the panel. And I'm going to direct the first question to Professor Tavneet Suri. Have we all got our cameras on? Tavneet? Okay. Professor Suri, apologies. Let me call you that. We saw some of the benefits of digital financial service in the film just now. And this is an area you, I know, have been researching extensively. So let's start with the why. Why do you think digital financial services help women in particular? And what have you learned from your research on mobile money and digital cash transfers during COVID-19? And what's their impact on women? Thanks, Moki. Thanks for the kind introduction. And it's my pleasure and honor to be here today. And thank you everyone for watching on this really important topic. You know, we've been given an introduction by a bunch of great folks. So let me sort of just go straight to Moki's question and answer it. You know, we spent a bunch of years studying the mobile money system in Kenya called Impessa and trying to trace out how it was changing people's lives, both from soon after it launched till about 10 years later. And so we were finding initially that what it did was it improved something we call financial resilience. Financial resilience is this concept of when bad things happen to you, can you kind of get through them? Can you power through them? And so we find that mobile money improves the ability of households, poor households, to get through bad events, like your kid getting sick, like drought, like floods, like all of these bad things that unexpectedly happen, mobile money allowed people to be more resilient towards them. And then as we traced this out over the longer term, Moki, we saw that basically when you're better protected and you're less vulnerable to these kind of big bad events, you make higher return investments because you know you're better productive. So we see that over the longer term, mobile money in Kenya led to about a two percentage point reduction in poverty across the country. We also see that these effects are bigger for female headed households. And then we try to understand where this was coming from. Where is this coming from? And it turns out to be coming from women switching occupations. We saw women both in male headed households and in female headed households switch out of agriculture into starting businesses. And so this was something that allowed them to do, you know, others who spoke earlier, like Melinda mentioned, you know, women having an account that's their own and this is essential to them being able to kind of diversify their lives and diversify what they do and take these opportunities of starting businesses of doing more. And we saw that over kind of a longer period, over like a 10 year period. So that was kind of work we did in Kenya. I will say this, it's kind of nice to watch the research space in some sense. I am a researcher, okay, I apologize. But the resilience effects we saw that it starts off with, right? It starts off with this improvement in resilience, improvement in vulnerability and then grows into this ability to do more. Those effects are now being documented by other researchers in Uganda, in Tanzania, in Mozambique and Bangladesh. And so it's been nice to see that there's this consistency of how digital services are helping protect the vulnerable in these countries. The second piece, the second piece I'll just... No, I was just going to ask you quickly. You said that women are switching occupations a lot. Just tell us a bit more about that. Yeah. We see about over 200,000 women as a result of mobile money switch out of agriculture as their main occupation and into a retailing business. Okay. Moki don't think starting an Apple store, right? This is a small scale micro enterprise in, you know, in a poor, in poor areas, right? So they're starting to diversify incomes. They're starting to go out and, you know, get into retail. Let me start a little stall that sells all my stuff. And then I get income on it, right? So that's kind of what we saw out of that. I'll mention one other piece of work that's kind of hot off the presses simply because we're starting to think about COVID and what COVID has sort of brought in terms of vulnerabilities. And over the last two years, we've been running a study on universal basic income, UBI, in two of the poorest counties, two of the poorer counties in Kenya. And these people have been getting cash transfers over the past two years. And this is all done digitally over the mobile money system. It's kind of like the novice program that Togo set up now in response to COVID. And we were testing a version of that in Kenya, but kind of a basic income streamed over time. And so before COVID hit, we were already documenting the impacts of this. And then we went back to see, do these impacts last? So basically what we saw for the transfers is they help people start businesses, they improve health, physical and mental health. They improve food security. And then when we went back in June to see, oh my God, these guys got cash transfers and some of them are still getting cash transfers. Do they still continue to do better as the country puts in all these policies for COVID? And we see that food security is still better as a result of the cash transfers. The businesses are still open and there. The business income has gone down. We saw big increases before COVID and business income and the business income comes down. Now COVID also hit at a time which was agricultural seasonality. So this could be just the hungry season in this part of the world, but it does show you, you know, they're starting businesses. There's still more volatility in income, but then we also see food security is still better. So basically what the UBI did was allow people to start businesses, allow them to kind of manage the fluctuations in business profits, which happen when you have a business, and still maintain food security, right? And they didn't have to shut down the businesses because they can kind of manage through it and maintain their household and not worry about where they're going to feed their kids from. You know, it's unlikely that a UBI is the perfect way to deal with COVID, Moki though. You know, VC is a big cash transfer that kind of deals with such a big shock. We were just in the position that we were already doing a study that had cash transfers coming to a set of poor households in Kenya. And so we had the opportunity to study the impacts. And like I said, these are all coming digitally, you know, which is really important at a time like this. You wouldn't want to be delivering in person anything right now, right? I mean, I think all of this work, both my own and others that are working on these digital systems and both social protection as well as just use of and access to these digital platforms we see that they're helping poor households and especially women both grow their incomes and diversify their activities, which helps them kind of, you know, broaden what they're trying to do, broaden their income set, broaden their opportunity set. And I'm hoping we'll see more of that work and more investment in instead of studying these things as we go forward. Moki, I'll hand back to you. All right. Thank you, Professor Suria. And I certainly hope we do see more investment and we are going to be speaking to the minister more about the novice program, which you also mentioned. So let me move on to Professor Dulu now. I'd like to come to you next because you are a or you were a former regulator. So you've got some practical insights. I'm sure that you can share, for example, you know that the introduction of mobile money does not automatically lead to the inclusion of poor and marginalized, as Melinda mentioned, and that women and girls are often excluded at very start. So how can governments design digital public goods and regulations to take women's and girls' needs into account in the first place? Thank you. First, I think just to make an observation that COVID-19 has definitely made a much stronger case for the importance of digital transformation, not just of economies, but also of livelihood. Those that had been onboarding during that time, particularly during the period of containment, were able to cope much better than those who were not. And we saw a number of central banks and African governments actually uplift the limits for use in use of mobile money in terms of making payments, partly because that did actually allow people to interact without the contact that typically cash would involve. So already that is quite, quite clear. So I'm going to focus on three areas of intervention, particularly now that we are moving towards recovery. The first one is just bridging the access and usage gap. Although about three quarters of the population in sub-Saharan Africa have a mobile connection, only a third of these use a smartphone and the internet. And studies show, as Queen Maxima actually already alluded to, that women in Africa 30 to 40% less likely than men actually to use the internet to participate in public life. So we need to go directly to those factors that actually account for these gaps. There are three I'll mention quickly. One is the affordability of digital services. Only 10 out of 45 sub-Saharan African countries actually meet the one for two affordability standard for internet recommended by the UN Broadband Commission. It means one GB not to cost not more than 2% of monthly income. That's the one for two. And I think we in this particular challenge, businesses have a role to play as much as governments have. Businesses should have pricing models that actually make digital services accessible, including those that typically do cross subsidies between those that can afford it better and those that can afford it less. But I would like also to single out over taxation of digital and financial services as one of the countries that need definitely to be fixed. Second, feed for purpose content tailored to women needs. This has to be both accessible and useful. And language is important. It's no good offering those services if people cannot understand and definitely also cultural relevance. Third is strengthening consumer capabilities, which is digital skills via training programs and instruction, which sometimes is embedded in the delivery of the product itself. So that is one area. The second area is deepening quality of usage beyond payment transfers. And here I would like to focus particular on access and use of credit. There are two particular areas I want to emphasize under that. The first one is unsecured credit and the role of credit scores in enabling that collateral we know is a big challenge and particularly for women. But now through digital and as well as Internet of Things, it's possible to actually do credit scores, which can be used actually to backup any application for credit without necessarily involving collateral. You sort of collateralize yourself by good behavior in terms of payment and repayment. Proportionality in KYC to enable easier onboarding into the form of backing system. Digital ID, most important in respect to that. 83% of banks in sub-Saharan Africa require a government approved ID to open account. And ID4D have done a lot of work in those areas. And countries have to do national risk assessment to guide proportionality and also emphasize the interoperability across the foundational digital platforms, which is ID, payments and infrastructure. I'll go to the last important area, which is increasing value and reducing risk in the informal sector. We heard how the informal sector is a source of income earning for the majority of women on paid work. And it's also true that with the advent of digital platforms now, a larger proportion of women are actually going also into the digital economy and informal sector, partly because of the flexibility those opportunities provide to women to function also around families. Two sets of actions on this and I'll close on that. The first one is to support stronger network provision by fostering interaction among infrastructure, payment and identification platforms. They intensify the information flow as well as enhance interaction among connected individuals, businesses, and public service providers. This is including cross-border, not just within borders where we know trade is extremely important. You find women dominant in trade, cross-border trade in West Africa. Whether you go cross-regional to Guangzhou in China, most of those you find there again are women. And it is very important that we support that. And the last part is to make sure that we support startups and capacity for localizing global solutions. Thank you. Thank you, Professor Indulu. But before I let you off the hook because you've given a whole load of different things that countries need to think about and prioritize. And the reality is, are they all interlinked or are there one or two things that countries can focus on and get right first and that you would say that in the early stages they should prioritize this? Can you sort of break it down for us a little bit because there was a lot in what you said. Two or three things. Yeah, I think the first must be women should be onboarded onto the platforms. Otherwise you can't use whether it's payments or just digital services. So the questions of affordability, skills to use, et cetera, are fundamental. And second is really to focus on the informal sector enabling environment for women to be able again to get back into income-aiming activities. Thank you, Professor Indulu. So I'm coming to you next to Minister Dawson because it'd be really interesting to hear about a real-life example of digital financial services. And a number of people have been talking about this program, the VC, which was rolled out in Togo. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about it. And then I'd like you to comment on some of the things that Professor Indulu talked about that countries should be prioritizing. But let's hear from you now about this fantastic service that had 65% of the beneficiaries were women, which is amazing. So let's hear from you now on some of the insights that you had from this cash transfer program. Okay, thank you very much. I'd like to thank Queen Maxima, President Ramaphosa, Nicolas de Rivière, Melinda Gates, Professor Suri, Professor Indulu for their insightful comments. I mean, it's a great honor. It's my pleasure to talk about the novice program, which is very dear to us because it's a 100% digital cash transfer that we implemented to support the informal sector whose incomes were going to be impacted by the anti-COVID measures that we took a few months ago. So, namely, you know, we had to implement daily curfews. We had to close certain cities, the capital city, Lomé, and other prefectures within the country, which is a challenge also. So what is novice? It's really, and novice means solidarity in Minnai, in a way. What we wanted to do was to support households and through a program, and we were very, very mindful with the fact that most informal sectors might not have access to the internet. So the novice program is 100% digital from onboarding to cash transfer using a USSD or shortcode, which did not need people to have access to the internet. But that's not the only innovation for this program. The other thing was that we wanted to make sure, because when you're going to be spending money, you want to make sure that the money goes into the pockets of the intended beneficiaries. So in the onboarding process, we made sure that these were real people by asking people to register with their voter's ID. We had presidential elections in February, so two months before that, so we were sure that people had up-to-date voter's ID, biometric voter's ID. The other thing that was very important to us was to give more payout, more money to women than men, because the rationale was that we wanted to make sure, we wanted to ensure that households were supported. And from what we know, if you want to support a household, you're better off giving money to women than men. So we made sure we gave 15% more money to women than men, and the payouts were really about one third of minimum wage. But moving, so the last point I think is important to say was that once you registered, you received the payouts immediately, because we wanted to build trust. And what was very important for us that someone goes into this platform using his or her basic phone, it's actually hers because 65% of beneficiaries were women, and that they would immediately receive the first installment. And so, to tell you how successful it was, when we launched it, we launched it, I think that less than two hours after launching the program, the platform got frozen because we, I mean, I don't know how, but we thought that people, that it would take one or two weeks for people to hear about this program. We didn't know that it was going to take less than two hours for the entire country to hear about this program and start registering. So it was very, it was very, we were very impressed by this. We had approximately 1.4 million Togolese registering to the program, which is approximately 38% of the entire Togolese voting population, which is, you know, 35% of all adults of Togo registered to this program, which, to tell you how important it was, and out of these 1.3 million people, 570,000 people received payment, and payment was based on eligibility, which was determined through the location where people were located and their professions because our goal was to support the informal sector. The whole program cost approximately up to two months cost $20 million, and the $20 million were partially funded through the National Solidarity Fund that we set up as a respond, you know, as a fund to, to, to finance all the COVID, anti COVID efforts. And I have to say that this, this fund was made up of resources from the Togolese government, from donors, I think we have to thank the French Development Agency, IFA, and also private donations. I do, do I still have a few minutes to say about a few. Go ahead. Okay, so in terms of, in terms of, and I think that it's, it's, when you think about a cash transfer, it's not only, you know, the technical platform, it's, it's, it's not only about the onboarding, it's also about making sure that many is well spent. So the novice program was not only the platform, but it was also a methodology. And in this methodology, I did mention earlier that we had, we used biometric ID to, to, to identify the beneficiaries, but we also were working with an, an auditing company, an external auditing company to have daily reconciliation of user funds. We wanted to make sure that we were spending that this because when you, when you do cash transfer, when you actually, when you do any innovative digital project, you have to make sure that everything is very square. Because if you fail, then you, it's not only the program that fails, you're, you're, you're failing for the next, I don't know how many years, because every time people will mention this program, they will say it doesn't work, or for this and that reason. So you have a responsibility to not only succeed, but to set up a methodology that people are going to be, you know, looking up to saying, oh, you know, these guys when they did, and, and what I what we do know from from now on is that for any cash transfer, massive cash transfer in, in in Togo, there will always be a methodology by which we will have daily reconciliation using external auditors, because we set up the standards very high, and it's going to be difficult for anybody coming after us to lower these standards. So I think it's very important. We also had a grievance system. We work with a call center, people could call every day, and the call center received millions of calls, call the call center to ask, you know, questions to get help to, to, to, to, for any kind of purposes, that any questions they had any information they wanted to have about the program, any personal cases they faced, they could call the call center. And why this is important, this is important because remember, we're under COVID, we can't meet anyone, we can't, we can't meet anyone. So, but it's also important because we're right now doing impact studies. And so we're calling all the beneficiaries, and even people who registered but were not beneficiaries, to understand the impact of our program. And I think that so far we've called approximately 15,000 people, you know, to really understand who the beneficiaries are, how they spend the money, what the concerns were, etc, etc. So that's pretty much in a nutshell. Thank you, Minister Lawson, because it sounds like it was an amazing, amazing project. And the fact that it was so successful, there could be incredible learnings for you. So I'm going to come back to you to hear what it was going to be doing in the future around cash transfers and just digital financial services. So let's hear a little bit from the private sector perspective now. So we've got Patricia, who's on the call with us. And, you know, we often say the role of the private sector is about innovation. And SafariCon, which is part of the Vodacom Group, which Vodafone in Ghana is, has been the flag bearer for mobile money on the continent. I mean, let's think about, you know, Ghana and other markets where Vodacom operates, as an example. Because it'd be interesting to hear what were some of the private sector constraints, and of course some of the opportunities for mobile network operator in this time. And especially, you know, one of the points that Professor Ndulu made, which was about over taxation. So I'd love to hear from you, your thoughts on this space, especially relating to women as well. Patricia. Thank you. Thank you, Moki, and thanks to our panelists and also to our keynote speakers. So for us, we observe three things. One, there was a lot of interest in the getting financial technology companies running. There were a lot of interest in the mobile money issuers setting up. However, if you look at the legal and regulatory framework, it was important to have something in place that will help to regulate the industry. Because at that point, customer trust was also so important for people to believe in the system. And so having the payment systems and services acts in place has really, really been helpful to regulate the industry. I think the second most important thing to us was the removing the barriers and the restrictions to enhance their ease and then the cost of the transaction. So we went closely with the central bank to remove the cost of transactions and also to improve the tier limits. And I think one of our panelists said that. And I think the other important one was to remove the third party. So if you wanted to reduce the cost, you need to put in the ease of transfer. So take out the third parties and allow a direct bank to wallet to wallet transfer. And so we have the interprobability platform. And this has been significant in improving the way we transfer money from one wallet to the other. The challenge and we have to use our platform to to move money to to citizens government use our platforms for the disbursement. And one of the difficulties was the unique identifier so even if you had the same registered he weren't sure that was going to a woman. So I think one of the things that government has done and a lot of effort has gone into it this year is to have the national identification card finally in place. So we now have a unique identifier that will be able to tell who this is and who the money is going to. And now how do you even find this pressing if you want to give him financial assistance, financial training education. And so there's been an active effort to put in the digital address system to help identify where people are. And this has been super super super helpful within especially within this period. The opportunity that we see and probably three areas so if we want to encourage usage if we want to stimulate the growth, then we need to provide women with with use cases. We need to provide this the micro the small the medium scale scale enterprises with what is relevant for them so direct access to affordable credit and if you look at what we did in South Africa this is this is just one typical one. Where women now through through the service can access credit, they can have access to insurance, they can be able to save on their phones. Now when they experience is so practical, he can she can have an overdraft. Then it encourages it encourages usage so that's one of the opportunities we see. I think the second one is, is policy so enabling digitalizing the payments process for essential services. If today majority of payments are still in cash. If we want to drive it we can just talk about it we have to be deliberate. And so if, and again if you broaden the digitalization of payments then you broaden the tax base you move more women from the the informal to a formal economy. You support financial inclusion so we're really seeing that as an opportunity going forward. And I think that that government being the probably the highest. The biggest employer paying salaries, doing revenue collection through through a more digital form is going to help help improve their economy so those are some of the opportunities we see that's why some of the challenges that I have highlighted. And I'd love for you to just talk a little bit about the cost of data issue because that has come up and that's potentially an opportunity for users, you know, are people discussing the cost of data in your boardrooms. So cost of data is high. It's top on a lot of people's agenda because people are working from home and would love to have access but I think the difficulty for people have been even the access making sure there's no congestion so especially for health and for education if they want to have access, there should be enough capacity and that's what we spent a lot of time with our policy holders making sure we can drum home that conversation but definitely price reduction in data has been something that's we've seen across the industry. For me, I think making sure we can expand the network. Our policy makers were able to help us with spectrum. This helped us to carry the traffic we saw between 40 to 50% recent data traffic. And so support at that time you couldn't even bring equipment into the country. So your best bet was your your spectrum availability. And that's what partnership with government becomes becomes so important. Okay, fantastic. Thank you very much Patricia. So let's go to Ethiopia now and let's hear from Minister Tolina on how COVID-19 has accelerated efforts to build digitally connected communities across Ethiopia. So I'd love to hear more about what is Ethiopia prioritizing. What are the key drivers for your government's view on digital financial inclusion. Thank you so much and greetings to all panelists and the keynote speakers. Look, you know, when the pandemic hit, I guess, it's brought to everybody's attention the importance of building inclusive digital economy. So our credit is that we will start working on this early on, when we start to reform our telecom sector, when we said, beauty is an economy has one important source of economy growth and that's one critical agenda. But I must admit, I think the challenge posed by the by the pandemic have brought more opportunities, I think more energy for us to promote financial inclusion. And we can see this in many aspects, for instance, on issue of connect connectivity, as Professor Rulo said, bridging the access and usage gap is important. One of the reasons why the telecom hit right at the wake of the pandemic was to significantly cut costs of services, producing price cuts of up to 65% type reduction for residential, broadband and services, 69% for private, introducing the stay at home discounted package so that they can now be easily accessible, people can consent, it's affordable and they can take advantage of it. And also, I guess, it did encourage the government to accelerate the pace of reform, we wanted to create a vibrant telecom industry to that end, we were advertising the incumbent at your telecom, but also opening a sector for potentially to entrance. And I think the pace of that reform has been accelerated, but also the public sector front, the agenda of e-government, I think has advanced significantly. I wouldn't take my time on this but like the whole idea of conducting meetings online, even the health sector, because of the pandemic, tremendous use of data correlation tools in the platforms has accelerated. And I think more importantly and relevant to this, I guess, in the education sector, one critical issue that happened is girls that were going to school because the pandemic have stayed home now. And there was significant worry that they might stay at home forever, they may not go back to school again. And that would really exacerbate the gender gap that is already very deep. So what we are doing now is as part of this is working on availing 5 million tablets for girls and boys at school. This is going to be phenomenal for many, for many reasons. One, it ensures that education continues. We are waiting to ensure 100% tablet coverage for high school students with mobile, you know, online content. But what more importantly, I think when girls in the rural areas take this tablet home, they will be introducing a new gadget, a new access to internet to their moms, to their aunties and introducing the idea of using internet and some gadgets to access the address of the world. And if this is supported by some innovation in the private sector in creating the right kind of solution for the farmers for hospitalists. And it can significantly advance digital financial inclusion, but on the later front as well, I think there are a lot of works in adapting digital strategy in revising our financial inclusion strategy altogether, in also prioritising digital literacy, you know, financial literacy for girls and for women across the world, across the country. But finally, I think the agenda for entrepreneurs has gained significant attention. The Prime Minister has set up the price for startups, but startups that would create solutions for everyday problems of women and girls and marginalised people in general. Solutions that are homegrown, but that could be on a global path that can connect people who have no access to the financial sector to be included in the financial sector. And finally, I would like to end with this. I guess I think the most profound thing I see that has happened post COVID. I think it has brought this resolve in every policymaker that look this time around. This is not allowed. We can't afford to delay this piece of legislation that we can do it here for now because it's very, very important for people's life. People are sitting at home, businesses have been disrupted, and how do we make sure these businesses continue and how can we support them through access to finance, through credit facilities. And I believe this agenda has been brought to the forefront across all stakeholders. Thank you, Minister Panini, and absolutely on the impact of COVID and probably its unintended consequences because it's absolutely accelerated digital transformation in so many ways. So Professor Tavneet, I'm going to come back to you on the policies, but because of the work that you're doing and you've seen the impact of digital cash transfers, what are you learning about how we can actually design better policies that sort of impact women and the poor more? Yeah, I think we still have a lot to learn on that Moki. Thanks for the question. I do think it's important to reach women. You know, we've worked on Kenyan places where that's better, but if you look at, you know, the World Bank has this global data on access to mobile phones access to digital accounts, women are far behind. And so I think trying to reach out specifically to them is important. You know, as Minister Lawson talked about her program, they made an extra effort to do this. And this was really helped by them having a biometric ID to start with, right? And so some of the issues that you'll face is, you know, Patricia mentioned kind of IDs are an issue where there's no biometric ID. And so I think trying to understand more about IDs and how to create ID systems that allow people to verify themselves into these digital systems is going to be a key part of that. We just started an initiative at J-PAL called Digify that tries to study bits and pieces of these digital ID systems as they're built, tries to make sure they're reaching the most marginal of the communities that you're trying to reach. But I don't want just rich people to enroll in these systems. And so I think it would be great to sort of as these ID systems get built, build partnerships with researchers to make sure that they're really reaching everybody and trying to create more equity in those systems. But I think it has to be those sorts of combinations of things, you know, having an ID system is going to be really essential to expanding access to these things and making them kind of more sort of stable and more usable and more accessible. Thank you. So Professor Nduli, I'm coming to you now. In an ideal world, we would just wave a magic wand and we create equitable digital financial systems across the continent. But the reality is that governments and some of the players in the sector, they're a little bit resistant. Share with us what you are seeing as some of the biggest risks posed by these new financial technologies that, you know, governments in some cases are scared of. And what steps should regulators be taking to mitigate this risk? Professor Nduli? Yes. I think there are two risks that I would like to focus on. One is the cybersecurity breaches, which typically can put at risk confidence and sustainability of the whole payment system. Because once people don't feel comfortable in terms of security and safety of their transactions, they actually walk away. So it's a very basic one. And it's important that regulators and authorities mandate that all service providers develop and approve a risk mitigating strategy covering all the four mitigation dimensions, which avoidance, acceptance, transference and limitation. And it's also important that clear sets of standards be actually developed in terms of security and adherence to those be also emphasized. But most important is to set up a consumer address system when things fail and happen. That's the only way in which credibility can actually be underlined. So this is one risk. The second one is resolution challenges in case of a failure of a mobile money company. We don't want to talk about possible failures, but these are real possibilities. And there the biggest challenge is the fact that there is an absence of equivalent of a deposit insurance arrangement for mobile money compared to those of banks. But I think options now are being discussed and one that are more sympathetic to is to go the route of this aggregating what we call as the trust account so that each holder is treated as an individual deposit. Here is what is the trust account. For every dollar or shelling that I hold in my electronic wallet, the company must put an equivalent in a trust account in a commercial bank. And because those are identifiable, they have actually been used, the disaggregated data has been used to remunerate all holders. So I get every quarter, a proportion of the interest and in the trust account by that company, based on how much I've kept on average as my balances. So if we can have that disaggregation, I think we can treat each holder of a wallet almost like a depositor so that when there is failure is not one single account of the company which gets compensated almost nothing because it's a single one rather than each one of those actually be considered. So those are the two risks that I would put right at the top. Right. I'm sure there are others, but let's move back to Minister Lawson. Now that you've seen the impact of the novice program, and we talked about it and sounds like it was an amazing success. What are you thinking about next to accelerate interest in using digital money and Google you've got all these people who've seen the benefit now. How are you leveraging that. Thank you. Number one, we are going to launch a biometric ID program for all to release because remember in the novice program we had to use voters ID because the population didn't have a biometric ID system. Now we are launching one early next year. And our aim is to roll out this program and identify all to release. So that's number one. Number two, is that you know when we're talking about women receiving funding we need to make sure that women are receiving funding. So what it means is that we we while registering while rolling out this biometric ID program. We want to find a way to get phones to phone actual phones to women. So every woman, every person in to go should have a phone and we should make sure they do have a phone. And so that would be the plan number two. And in the novice program what we did was that every person, even people who didn't have mobile money account, the initial payment, the initial novice transferred created the account somehow working with their cause. So now what we want to do is that we want to roll out while rolling out the biometric ID we want to create mobile banking account to all to release so that we have the highest percentage of people with mobile account in in in West, in in France speaking West Africa. Togo has the highest percentage. But I think that with the biometric ID program, we can go and have 100% of Togo leaves having a mobile money account. This is our objective. What we also need to say is that today we also have the means to get additional information. We are working with IPA and Berkeley University to have poverty maps of Togo. We're able to draw maps of wealth and poverty maps of the entire country. And through this program what we're also doing is that we're working with telecom operators, we're we're collecting data from them. The CDR's individual consumption information so that we would know who is actually poor. So we now know which region within Togo is poor, but we also know based on how they use their phones, which individual is poor. So it's a very important, I think, time in this century where we have big data, every time people talk about big data, but this is a good use of big data. This is something that governments should do because we have access to this information. It's high time we started using it in order to better target the poorest because if you look at us governments, we have lots of information, but a lot of, and that was one of the challenges that we saw. It was that a lot of various ministries had database on the pores, but we were, but this database did not collect information systematically. So these database were very difficult to use in a very large programs because they were initially designed for specific purposes. Now we are at a point in our history in Togo and in the world where we could reset certain things and use this information to say, you know, and who is poor and how we can help him. And what I also want to say, because I think it's important in the novice program, we ask people to register because we wanted them to ask to say, you know, I'm individual ex and I need the money. We wanted them to take responsibility. We thought it was very important to give people their dignity and so that they would stand on their own feet saying, you know, I'm a mother, I'm a father. I need this money and I know I'm going to spend it well. So we thought it was also very important. Okay, thank you for that Mr Lawson and I we've got that 10 minutes left. So I want to take some of the audience questions. So I'm going to ask this to you, Patricia, and it's one of our audience questions. And she's asking, are we, as we know that women are less likely the men to have access to mobile phones. What steps can we take to reshape that. I think it's actually one of the most critical questions because all of this is dependent on somebody having a phone of some sort to receive all of this, all of the benefits of digital financial services. So, which I should love to hear from you. How are we thinking about making sure that more people, particularly women have access to mobile phones. The partnership with government is going to be significantly important. The access to the phone means that it is low cost, it is affordable, and it is easy to use by this woman. And so one of the things we have to look at is tax incentives for those who can bring in the low cost handsets. One is probably having an assembling plant locally. I know this is a consideration that is going on and a lot of discussions are going around that we have to make the costs of getting the handset into the hands of the woman much easier. But I think the bigger problem is, even if she has a phone, how does she connect. Many of these women who cannot afford these phones are in areas where we have poor or no connectivity. And so, if you look at what has happened over the years in Ghana, the telecom companies contribute one percent of their net revenue into like an infrastructure fund for electronic communication. Now this has to go into infrastructure. It has to be used to deliver rural connectivity for where these women are. And so that when they have the handsets as well, they can have the network because we'll put a device and unfortunately she will not be able to find any network to use. So driving connectivity, making connectivity available to the woman in addition to the handsets, I think will be important. The last one is although she has the phone, I think we shouldn't forget that adding the skill to it is important. It's one area that I think partnership is needed. Once the woman can earn an income, you've empowered her. But once she has the knowledge on how to save on the phone that you have given to her, how to access credit, then that's the beginning of her liberation. And so for me, the knowledge, the connectivity, the device have to go together. We spent time last year in the upper part of our country where we have a lot of women who actually need this type of access. And we worked together with UNB. This is just an example of how private sector and the NGOs and government can come together with the regional ministry up there. And our plan was to educate over 1,500 women, but that meant over 10,000 households were going to be empowered, giving them the financial skills training, allowing them to understand how to access credit, etc. So for me, these three have to go together. It's not just the phone connectivity and the electricity, the skills have to go together. And thanks for that. You talked a lot about, you know, it's private sector and public sector. So it's private public partnership in a lot of this. So I'm coming to you now, Minister Talina, because Ethiopia has been undergoing some reforms to increase private sector participation in the economy. So how is this translating to the digital financial services space? And how do you see the private sector's role in assisting governments and your regulators in their efforts for digital financial inclusion? Thank you so much. That's a very good question. I guess it's very important to underscore that DFI requires participation of all stakeholders, private, public, civil society, development partners. I'm glad to see that all are represented here and any partner shows that unless we all come together, we can really solve this challenge. In this case, the way we view this, we want the government to be more of a development in every way by delivering the key foundational things such as digital ID, government solutions, starting a fund for the startup that I mentioned, and also creating an enabling regulatory environment. Our approach is more of a sandbox approach now. We have had the government has been accused of over-regulating it, and now we are changing that completely when it comes to digital financial inclusion. But also some trendsetters, for instance, the Prime Minister has inaugurated an artificial intelligence center just a few days ago. And this has profound implications because in a country where credit is largely based on collateral and so on, if we can use AI, for instance, to understand people's credibility, their spending ability, and then it's called accordingly as Professor Roulou was saying earlier, and this can have significant impact on financial equity. But on the private sector side as well, there's a very important role to play. The most important one being accelerating sort of investment in technology, in interoperable payment and fast surges, agent networks and things of this sort. But more importantly, I think innovating solution, the private sector should be the key. In the best case, we will look at this. We have over 400,000 STEM graduates every year that are coming out of university, and every year the intake is about 150,000-300,000 students. These students are studying ICT, maths, technology, and we want them to be innovators, key enablers for digital financial inclusion. The government partners, we believe, need to work on in supporting access to finance in sort of funding some of these critically important projects. But overall, the way we see it, I think this partnership is working very well. The government is really creating the private sector. We see now new innovations mushrooming everywhere. Very interesting solutions. For instance, because of COVID, you could see e-commerce sectors coming up in small market and pop shops, ranging from hotels, small shops and so on. This is overly encouraging. In fact, using existing media page like Telegram channels, or at times even Facebook channels, but catering to their consumers. And who are benefiting from this? Small scale businesses, mum and pop shops, women in particular. Very, very interesting development. Thank you for that. I really have to end now because we are on time and I'd love to thank you, the panel for your insight. It's actually been really great to hear some of the service the African countries are rolling out. I mean, progress is being made because of rather than in spite of this pandemic. Professor Suri, Professor Ndulu, Minister Lawson, Minister Tolina and Patricia Obonai. Thank you very much for your time today and thank you to the audience for joining. And you know, sessions like this, a really way of keeping attention laser focused on the issues. And if there is a call to action from today, it's around two things. We have to connect digital financial inclusion to building back better. We have to recognize the urgency to accelerate and invest in digital public goods. There's a tremendous opportunity to financially include and empower women on a massive scale. And this has never been more important. You know, the world is experiencing an economic crisis and that only serves to widen the gap and magnify inequality. One solution and that solution must be at the center of the global development agenda. That's making sure that women are included in the formal economy and that they have the financial tools they need. And both of these will lead to economic power for women. What we observe today is that donors, implementers and African governments are already working together on digital financial services and they're building more inclusive and much more resilient economies in the wake of the pandemic. The G7 partnership for women's digital financial inclusion in Africa is a simple blueprint that will help bring 400 million people into the digital economy. And Africa can lead the way. We have done it before with mobile telephony and we can do it again. So on that hopeful note, I would love to bring this session to a close and thank you all for your important contributions to this work. We look forward to seeing you next year. It's good night from me, Moki Makura in Johannesburg.