 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. For the last few days, violence in the state of Manipur has escalated between the various communities that live there. The immediate trigger for the violence is understood to be a ruling by a court which says the state government should consider the demand of the Metis, which is the dominant community in the state for scheduled tribe status. However, this is a demand which has been opposed by the Hill residents of the state of Manipur. While this is the immediate trigger, there is a long history of conflict and disagreements between the communities in Manipur to discuss what these are and also how to emerge out of the current spiral of violence and find longer lasting solutions for the conflicts. We will speak to Nandita Haqsar, who is a human rights lawyer and has extensively travelled in and written about the northeast, including Manipur. Nandita Haqsar, thank you for joining us on this discussion at NewsClick. You know, whenever there is violence, the question arises, why? Why are people so angry? Can you give us a sort of look into the background to what is happening in Manipur right now between the Metis, the cookies and other communities who live there? Well, I'm glad you asked that what is a background because however horrendous the violence and it has been horrendous and the attacks on cookies, both in Manipur and in Shillong and in Delhi by the Metis is something which obviously anyone would condemn. I believe actually most Metis also would condemn this because I don't think they'd support it. I don't think the anger of the cookies also, if you see the women, cookie women supporting or protecting Metis, so this anger is there, it's real and it's brutal. And yes, it has been condemned by everyone and yes, there are calls for peace by people like Mary Kom and others. But as you said, we should go behind this because this happens again and again and then the country forgets the volatile situation of Manipur. So let us look at it in its historical context. Manipur has from time to time been declared the most dangerous state in the country. It has a volatile situation. There have been a lot of clashes between Nagas and cookies, between Metis Hindus and Metis Muslims or Pangals, between Tamils and all various communities at various times. There is always some specific reason why a particular this kind of violence breaks out. But behind all these reasons, I think, are two. One is the issue of land. There is a tremendous pressure of land in Manipur, as in other parts of the country. This pressure of land has been interpreted in various ways. For instance, the Manipuri's demand for ST status, which seems very absurd to the tribals because they have always looked down on tribals. Now, why are they demanding it? Because they feel their land is being taken away for various reasons which we'll come to and they say they want to settle in the hills. But I don't think that really the issue is of the Metis, Nagas, cookies, Pangals, these people, all of them having, they can come to some kind of resolution. But why are they not able to? There are three, four reasons. Immediate reason as for the last February 21 and earlier also has been the situation in Myanmar. The situation in Myanmar after the army rule, hundreds and thousands of people are fleeing from the area. And in this time, this, after this coup, there are bombing. In fact, one bomb actually fell into Mizoram. So this influx of people, they are refugees. And India has decided that there are no refugees in or Indian government has decided through an executive order that there are no refugees in India. They're all illegal migrants. So these people are all, are on the borders. And the greatest pressure is on the cookie people because they're coming to Chura Chanpur. They're coming to More. And the cookies have had to bear the brunt of this influx because they are part of the same family of tribes. They have been very generous. They have raised money. The churches have accommodated these refugees, given them shelters, solace, protected them from illegal arrests. The whole burden has been on them. Why then does it seem as if it is the mate who are a little more upset than the cookies are? Why is it also a demand of the mate which has led to a cookie anger against them? Correct. So now the mate's feel that all these people who are coming in and some of them have come in are going to settle on their lands in the valleys and they will take away their land. Now, I don't know exactly the figures, but some figures that me quote for you is one of the allegations is that there are now, well, more than 966 new villages. So there are 308 new villages at Konkopi, 281 new villages in Chura Chanpur, 205 in Chandigarh. Now, what are these figures? These are illegal villages. These are non-recognized villages. These villages are asking to be recognized. Some of them, perhaps a majority of them are of these influx of the chins coming in to India. And if they are in villages, that means they're permanent settlers. So the question is how do we deal with this huge humanitarian crisis? And if the government says we have nothing to do with them, they're illegal migrants and wash their hands off. Then the crisis is more. Some of them wanted to come to Delhi to get UNHCR support or to get their own people. The chins are here in Vikaspuri and other places. They were arrested because they don't have cards and they can't even get other cards. So I'm not sure of the figures today, but there are 200, 300 people arrested and they're in jails. There was a situation in which some of these people, I know of four, two at least were women who died in the jail of COVID and the court in given order to let them go to the hospital. So this tremendous pressure on land coming. Plus there are other long-term factors such as climate change. These are all factors which are going to put pressure on land and urbanization. Is it correct that these villages are coming up mostly in the areas where the Métis do not live in large numbers? Yes, as I said, 308 new villages in Kankopi, 281 in Churachampur, 205, all of them are in tribal areas. So this is, it's a very complex issue of land. And I think that somewhere, one second reason, I said two reasons, one is land issue. Let me relate one more issue which added to the anger of the cookies was this growth of poppy cultivation. Now this growth of poppy cultivation means that Manipur, which used to be a place for trafficking of drugs, is now becoming a hub for production of drugs. Which is a very significant shift from how it was before. Absolutely. And at least some figures that I've got is that between 2017 and 2021, 14,305 acres of illicit poppy was destroyed by the police. 14,000 plus acres. Yeah. So it is huge. Yes. Behind this, I'm told by a source who is an intelligence that there is some intelligence agencies behind who they are, what they are, has not come out and it's a matter of investigation. And to be told that what, why this sudden growth of poppy cultivation. And if you suddenly evict people or destroy it, you're destroying their means of livelihood at the very moment when there's pressure from the migrants or the people fleeing from this brutal army rule and coming into India. Now Mizoram has managed to deal with it. That's right. And if Mizoram can deal with it, they have got dormitories, very basic dormitories made of bamboo and giving basic food. At least they've done that. So Manipur should be able to deal with this. The influx of this people. And I do not think that we want to call army in and call for national register of citizens and do all those things which lead to vast human rights violations and misery, but we do need to give identity card to these people and have a way of dealing with them in a humanitarian manner. So this I think would be the solution rather than blaming them, putting all this pressure on the cookies and instigating these, this violence, which for the first time there has been ethnic violence, but first time it is now looking into a more and more religious violence. Yes, you said that earlier. Is it looking at religious violence because the media in Delhi reports on it in that? No, because there have been attacks on the churches and this is a direct result of a BJP policy because I'm not saying I do not wish to say that this nothing would have happened in Congress. Congress also did nothing. But with BJP's intense Hinduization program or emphasis on Hindu extremism or Hindu nationalism, they are looking upon and anti-Christian attacks in other parts as well. So churches have been burned. Yes. And so every variety of identity politics, for instance also between Catholics and Baptist churches, there is the Muslims versus Hindu, there is Christian versus Métis, every variety of identity politics is tearing the fabric of Manipur apart. Therefore, the calls to peace is one thing. Maybe everyone will stop killing each other, but the hatred, the suspicion and the bad blood and the problems will remain. So what is the solution? And I don't know that the solution, but I would like to say that this identity politics must stop. The Métis seem to have identified scheduled tribe status as the answer to many of their problems. Is that going to feed into identity politics conflicts? Yes, of course, because it is first of all, it's really sad. I look at it as sad because the Métis were very proud of the fact that they are not tribers, that they are old ancient civilization, which they are, they have a written script, they have poetry, they have an old religion. And suddenly, this is their demand that they want to be tribal status. And why? Because they think that they will get land in the tribal areas. But in fact, what will happen is when everyone has tribal status and nobody will have it, the land will not be protected. And what will happen is who will take the land? Not neither the Nagas, nor the cookies, nor the Métis, but some multinational companies. For instance, in Kashmir, with all these other problems, let's just look at it, who got the contract for land for shopping malls was the Emirates. So the people of northeast, all of them, Naga, Cookie, Métis, Pangal, and anyone else living there will lose. They are already losing their land. So this is not a solution. The only solution for people of Manipur and all, including Marwais, they have been living there for years and years. Everyone must come together, stop an identity politics, and at least talk in terms of Manipur. If we like Manipur, if we love Manipur, then there must be a way of solving this problem. You mean socioeconomically rather than… No, politically, because politically we have to come together. Socially economically, yes, we maybe belong to a tribe, we have some allegiances, we social economic connections. But politically there must be a politics which unites people. Identity politics has been dividing continuously, becoming worse and worse. And this will not stop. And it dehumanizes because it makes everyone else the other. For Métis, Cookies and Nagas are the other, for the Nagas, Cookies are the other, for the Pangas, everyone is the other. So you have a situation which is volatile and it's on the border. So we have Burma border, we have China nearby, we have Bangladesh. It is not a situation which is good for our country. And in India, neither the media nor people nor MPs, political parties are engaged with these issues or informed about these issues. Are you seeing the kind of response, even for the sort of statements you get, let's have peace, are you seeing enough of that come from the ruling party? Well, let's forget ruling party just now because I don't have a brief for any of these parties because I don't think they really react. But I do see one and I don't want to name on this program but one of the top media people, a specialist in Northeast, got all the facts wrong. He thought Cookies are attacking Métis and he went on national media. There are others who are saying this. Yes, but that particular person I was saying is a very senior journalist. So if you don't even get the facts right and you misinform the Indian public, and as it is, it's a very complex issue, then if we are talking about India and I am talking about India, it's always about India, then this identity politics is a virus which is going to go all over. It's not going to be and it's linked to a government which is promoting a certain identity for the country. So this is not good for the future of India. Are you trying to warn or caution that the identities which I had played today in Manipur might actually include more into this sort of violence and sides will be taken? Of course. And then it will become Christian issue, then it will become Muslim issue, it will become Hindu issue, then it will be over the identities that spill over Manipur. So instead of containing it and having a Manipur politics, a political solution. But I would like to say one other thing. All this violence plus the identity politics is exasperated by the fact that every community has an armed group supporting its demands, every community, and not one. So the Nagas have NECN, but they also have other Naga armed groups, local armed groups also. Cookies have many, many groups. Metes have, so everyone and they're very courageous people, all of them. So this kind of violence and these political armed groups have no politics left. They do not have politics except very narrow identity politics. And it is also true that they are the only ones who can protect their own people because in this kind of situation they did come in and they did protect the cookies. But where is it going? For whom is it going? And that's why someone has to stop it and someone has to appear from Manipur itself with a political vision. What would the contours of such a political vision be? How would we distinguish it from an economic vision, a vision that gets jobs, a vision that makes land the issue like. But all these issues would be from politics because if you want a vision of this state then we have to say okay now Manipur and it's true that they have to acknowledge the fact that the tribals of Manipur have been deprived of their share of development. Tribal funds have been used by Metes and they are very good figures which I don't think in this program we can go, but I have the figures which were given in fact by Congress MP in the Legislative Assembly and for that he gave these figures about the disparity between the tribals and the Metes. So these things have to be acknowledged. What do you mean by being acknowledged? Acknowledged by the communities because when for instance for me I would like to say at this point I'm an Indian. It took a long time for me to feel you know at home with the Nagas always saying Nagas in Indians we are not you know we are not Indian. It used to really upset me and it took a long time for me to see that our army is actually attacking Nagas and it was not very easy to take up a case in the Supreme Court representing Nagas against Indians. But I had to acknowledge it because if we are wrong we are wrong and whoever is wrong has to acknowledge it. So it is now maybe it is like a truth and reconciliation situation maybe because there's a lot of Christians maybe we can have a truth and reconciliation commission. But I don't know the people in Manipur will have to decide because nobody else is going to. Nobody else has the vision nobody else has the interest. So you mean that politics should facilitate communities to actually talk to each other. Yes. Rather than look at a court order here or an executive order there to sort out the problem. And you do not think that the deployment of armed forces of any nature would be a permanent solution or a long lasting solution. Of course not. We fought I'm one of the people we fought very hard for to get rid of their armed rifles. So did the people of Manipur fight. So did the Maitais fight. And it has been a long time since they had sort of shoot at side orders. Yes. Yes. So we have now who has lost the shooter side orders were there in under armed forces special powers act. Assam rifles was removed from the center. It had become now we are calling for the army back. We are calling for center to interfere. The center has never done anything. They're not going to find a solution. It is the people of Manipur. All of the communities have to come together. Not only talk about peace but hard issues. And they have to have space. And in Manipur if anyone talks or criticizes they are shot. They have fear of being killed. And I have faced it myself. There was some at some other point at some other point of history when I spoke on the issues. You know my Fiji was burnt. So these are issues which I do care. I really do care about my country of course. But I care about Manipur. And I think that all of them are rational enough to sit together and maybe a truth and you know like they had in South Africa maybe some kind of commission where they can face all this because it's long run history of mutual suspicions and historical conflicts. Do you think that the governments at the center of the state are really in a position to be able to mediate such an arrangement? No. Never. Because not with the BJP government which has been responsible for some of this. Never has this Hindu-Christian come up. The churches are being burnt. And why? Because there's a kind of a kind of an atmosphere in which such things can be done. You mean the violence? The violence or the burning of churches. All right. Thank you very much for joining us. 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