 We had the best time doing the initial breakdown of the body language and behavior in this video. And we decided we'd revisit some of our favorite moments from it. But she didn't have any issues with her, right? No, I mean, you know, obviously if he was dating me and dating her, I probably said, Hey, pick or something, you know, you know, back then, um, I can't say that we ever screamed or yeah, you know, it's, I mean, he was a pretty mellow guy, you know, um, I think I was pretty mellow. I don't, I don't think we had some big huge blow up to say, well, you know, why we stopped dating or, you know, and I even think that when I was dating him, I was probably, like I said, I was probably going out with other guys and he was probably going out with other girls, you know, I don't know. I mean, would you remember if she snapped on you and just like, Hey man, it's my man, you know, you get it. Leave him alone and you know, blah, blah, blah, that kind of stuff. You know, would you remember an incident like that? I mean, because that would be like, well, you know, and maybe that happened. I mean, gosh, I, you know, it's been so long ago. I, you know, I just, I mean, that's not ringing a bell. Um, because the times I've seen you around at our office, I'm crazy. All right, Greg, what do you got? So let's just follow this path for just a minute. I don't know who she is. Maybe I met her. Oh, I never went to her house. Maybe I did. Oh, he was dating both of us. Hold on. How much more do you need to do to raise your hands and say, could I have that, those cuffs now? I mean, what, what storyline are you trying to hold? This is not any person would say, I'm going to shut up and get a lawyer right here, unless you're arrogant enough to think that you can outsmart these guys sitting across the table from you. And then we'll find out because it's coming. She goes on and says, if he was dating both of us, if he was dating me and dating her, I probably said, Hey, pick or something. You know, then she does a redirect where she starts talking about, he was mellow. I mean, he was a pretty mellow guy. What's that got to do with this whole thing? And then she just jumps tracks. She didn't bother chaffing. She just jumps tracks and starts to answer a new question. I don't think we had some big huge blow up to say, you know, why we stopped dating or, you know, what's she even talking about? Then you get back to the questioning and then she's got that little smirk and I think it's just who she is. It's something she's done her whole life. And then she does a little trading guilt by saying, I'm crazy. And then minimizing the impact. If I were here, I would just be like, why don't you finish the interrogation? We'll just sit here and listen to you question yourself, because this is going nowhere but down. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So more extreme turtling here to the level now that she should be sponsored by some kind of caffeine drink. You know, exactly. It's like you can't. I don't think I can even turtle the level that she's managing to turtle. But like my bone structure won't won't do it. Let's see. Let's see your. Yeah, exactly. Well, thank you, extreme turtling. So so she doesn't know who to hold eye contact with, you know, the heads just going from side to side. I don't know, you know, whether she's whether she's trying to work out now, like who's on my side, who isn't? Or just she now feels nobody's on her side, but she doesn't know where to hold eye contact. Her breathing rate is now way higher than it has been in the past. She is what I would call mugging and gurning her way through this mugging, being an acting star whereby you just pull faces to get away with it and gurning, being a very particular English face pulling sport for the English panellists, British panellists, stick it up on social media so people know what we're talking about there when we talk about gurning and some extreme face pulling here. And she even I don't think I've seen this before. She even does a pass out eye roll, which is where her eyes roll back to the side and she kind of almost does the action of fainting. It's it's just so extreme and so extraordinary. I don't think I've seen that anywhere else, apart from in some, you know, some comedies or some films or some dramas of some sort. It's so extreme. Love it. Can't can't get enough of it. Scott, what have you got? All right. She's minimizing huge here because he's talking about how it might have happened, all that. And if it did, it wasn't that big a deal. The goofy face stuff stays almost a constant in this. You're right, Mark, that's it's out of hand. It's it's ridiculous at this point. And she's got it's just she's putting on a show at this point. She's got she's trying to she's got her anger quelled a little bit, but she's still trying to she knows or she's pretty sure they've got something and she's wanting to know what it is because they're so confident and that's what's getting her because they're coming on like, yeah, we got something, we got something. She's like and trying to explain her way out of all these things. We talked about her structure before she's going back to each one and pulling stuff from and trying to defend all those because they really haven't hit her with anything yet. So they did such a great job on this, such a great job on this. When she says maybe that happened again, leaving the door open so she can go back and try to protect some of that stuff and add something to it, add qualifiers to help help save her story on that. But she doesn't know what they have and she and it's really frustrating for her. I think that's one of the reasons you're seeing that that arrow mark is going along with what's actually happening. There's just so much emotionally she's going through here because that's that personality type. All those emotions are running through her back and forth and up and down and all around. It's it's beautiful. It's it's it's it's horrible, really. But I mean, watching it like this and seeing her getting trouble for it for what she's done. I think that's the good part. But man, from a psychological standpoint, it's just beautiful. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I love it. That interrogator really brings it out of her. Oh, yeah. I think, you know, in Greg's famous terms, this is called bringing the chimpanzee to the shindig. For sure. Another old Hartley chestnut. So ambiguity is now the new defense. And you hear her time cleansing defense strategy here. It's been so long ago. And is this upward tone in her voice that's different than up talk? Completely different than up talk. Gosh, you know, it's been so long ago. I, you know, I just I mean, that's not ringing a bell, which is just helping to add to this uncertainty. There's tight lips. The chin boss movement is ridiculous. But when he says it snapped at you, there's forced fabricated recall. And one of the surefire ways it tells that there's forced recall or some pretend recall is head and eyes move together to recall. It's usually just an eye movement. But most of her glances towards the non-question asking person are towards the end of her statements to make sure that she's being believed. So a confirmation glance when we're looking at someone else in the conversation, when there's two interrogators, it's more likely to be deceptive when you make contact with the non-asking person after the statement, which we're definitely seeing here. I'll just leave it at that. But she didn't have any issues with her, right? No, I mean, you know, obviously, if he was dating me and dating her, I probably said, hey, pick or something, you know, back then. I can't say that we ever screamed or, you know, it's I mean, he was a pretty mellow guy, you know, I think I was pretty mellow. I don't I don't think we had some big huge blow up to say, well, you know, why we stopped dating or, you know, and I even think that when I was dating him, I was probably, like I said, I was probably going out with other guys and he was probably going out with other girls. You know, I don't know. I mean, would you remember if she snapped on you and just like, hey, man, it's my man, you know, you get it. Leave him alone, you know, blah, blah, blah, that kind of stuff, you know. Now, would you remember an incident like that? I mean, because that would be like what? Well, you know, and maybe that happened. I mean, gosh, you know, it's been so long ago. I, you know, I just I mean, that's not ringing a bell because the times I've seen you around at our office, I'm crazy. Well, one of the concerns I had is looking at some of the notes is some of Sherry's friends said that you and her were having a problem because of the John situation. Well, number one, I don't know who her friends are because again, I don't I don't recall if he did tell me where he met her. I don't know even who these friends are a problem. I guess if I spoke to her, I mean, I'll go on as far as a limb. And I don't want to say I spoke to her five times because that's probably not even true. I can't even remember again. Did I meet him at her plate when he lived on Roscoe before I think quite a while? But I couldn't tell you how long he lived in Roscoe. And the only reason I remember the place now is because it's like a huge dope, dope place now where they, you know, it may have been back then, but, you know, maybe we didn't know back then. I could have met her there. I could have, you know. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so this is gold medal winner, extreme turtling and extreme lip retraction at the same time. I don't care who you are. I don't think you've ever seen turtling and lip retraction at this level. If you have, you need to show me the evidence because I guarantee you've never seen it this big. This is this is Olympic level. This is gold medalist. This is as good as big as it can ever get. So so I just want to lay that that down there as a competition. If you have bigger turtling, bigger lip retraction, you've got to send us that information because it does not exist. This is as big as it gets. The other lovely piece of this, I think, is this I think set up of a tactic here of saying the area that they lived in was was well dodgy. Huge dope, dope place now where they, you know, it may have been back then, but, you know, maybe we didn't know back then. We certainly know that now. Hey, maybe the police didn't know it at the time. Hey, maybe the police have still missed something about what's been. Maybe the police are just maybe we're a little bit inept around this. So I think there's a there's a clever little maneuver. Doesn't last for too long of suggesting, look, they lived in a bad area. That's why she got killed and the police are pretty inept. They probably missed something, you know, go out and search again, start the investigation, stop looking here, nothing to look at over here. Greg, what do you got on this one? Yeah, I agree with you. She's walking through this whole thing. We talk about her turtling. Look at that outlet plate or switch plate behind her now and go back and compare it to number one. Her head is about that far lower than it was in the beginning. I love the fact that it's a static camera and she's in the corner and she just gets smaller and smaller and smaller. Scott, you say people look like Muppet. She's going to look like a Muppet here shortly. Her little body is going to be flailing around over there. She does a nervous laugh. She turtles, she drops her head down, her chin protects her throat. Then she does all this emphatic hand movement and she starts to chaff and redirect that she's been masterful at. You know, it's starting to creep into her language. You know, you know, you know, she challenges the validity of the witness. I don't even know who these friends are. And then she challenges the neighborhood to your point, Mark. And the only reason I remember the place now is because it's like a huge dope, dope place now. What she's doing is casting doubt on the entire thing. Did it ever happen? I don't know. I didn't know these people. And I think this is just her. And then she does that Trump movement. If you remember Trump when he was running for the nomination before he was running for president, when people would say something to him, he'd go and make a goofy face. It's kind of a deflection move. She's doing exactly that. I think all that face has been what she's done her entire life. And she's just gotten away with it. And then she goes to I don't recall how many times I met her. Four, I'll go on a limb and say five. Look at her respiration or blank rate. She's a squirrel on the road right now. She's running back and forth and trying to figure out what's next. Scott, what do you got? All right. I think she's retreating further into her what I'm going to call her protection personality. When I talked about earlier where she's done this a thousand times and she's getting further back in there. That's why I see her eyes are glazed over a little bit. Her face is getting a little bit more red. And she's she's in the only protection mode. She knows as these emotions are just bouncing around inside her. She's trying to get a hold on her. We're seeing the lip compression. Again, that denote she's holding back information. And it could be stressed. But in this case, I think she's holding back information. The eye scratch is an adapter. You can say two or three things about that. But I think that's what we're looking. We're looking at there. I don't think she's trying to collect. She doesn't understand and her and there's no loping. She's usually loping when you just start talking about something. This is the complete opposite of that. She's just these really short, choppy two or three words at a time. And it just goes on and on and on a problem. I guess if I spoke to her, I mean, I'll go on as far as a limb. When they start talking about the problem, her chin completely covers her neck. That's what Mark's talking about about the turtling. Just it's just incredible. You'd think she'd know better. Somebody at some point who said, here's why we we think this person is this. We'll watch what happens with the chin. And even from a subtle aspect of that, she would go, OK, I don't do that. She's not I don't know. She may be smart. I don't know. But man, this she should know better than that at this point. She's getting further and further down. Like Greg was saying, if you watch where she is, she's getting shorter and shorter, make yourself smaller, trying to hide. Now, when you adjust in your chair, somebody says something, then you adjust and start talking. If you're asking a question about whether you're being deceptive or not, or if something's happened, asking you about it. That shows you something bothers them there. So we're seeing that as well. It's not the only time we see it. We see it a couple of times. But this this is this is a special one, I think, because of the situation she's in. So anytime somebody asks you something or asks them on something, you see them kind of scoot around their chair or just a little bit. That's when you know something's up, because it does two or three things. It helps you. It gives you a little bit of time to think as you're scooting. You instantly gives you two or three seconds or two seconds, probably. And that's all you need to get in there and start thinking, because your brain works really quickly, a lot quicker than your mouth works. Now, I'm under the impression that your brain works as fast as your mouth does. That's why I talk so fast. But in this case, she's that's why she's adjusted to get a little bit more time to think. I said, when you're having problems, she laughs. She's trying to diminish that situation when he talks about the problem anyway. So she's trying to make that look small and not that big a deal at all. Still trying to defend that. She goes back to these chunks of the story that she's trying to tell and the information they've given her as she's put in these boxes. She's trying to remember what they are and then go back and protect those as she goes along. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, you guys got just about everything I had here. She's unable to answer it first, which I think is a very good data point here. You're going to see her attempt to illustrate her response as she's still trying to come up with the words there. Well, the second part of this is this willingness to become more expressive on the face feels helpful to her. But when a real emotion comes up that's actually powerful, it takes over the face and it tends to take over the face because she's already allowing the face to be expressive so the real emotions can come out a little more clearly and that's why we're seeing a duality of facial expression. Now, maybe I'll come up with a cool name for that. I don't know. And Greg, one of the things that you were talking about with Trump with this kind of this backwards face, this is also if you go on YouTube and type in people getting the crap scared out of them compilation, that's the face you see. That's that kind of head back from something that's scaring somebody like somebody pops out of a trash can or something. That's what you're going to see. But I think we have the face expressions of Trump and we have the eyes of Hillary Clinton. That kind of like this kind of look while she's listening to someone, the whites of the eyes are come out. So we have the eyes of Clinton and the face of Trump, which is a fantastic combo. But keep in mind, she's expending a massive amount of nervous energy and keep in mind that she is a cop. So the presence of two probably junior people are not necessarily intimidating. It's the situation and the this looming elephant in the room that not even she has yet had the courage to bring up for fear of something coming out before she was able to determine what the story was, what the angle was, and how much these people knew. I'm going to leave it at that. You guys got a lot. That's all I got. Well, one of the concerns I had is looking at some of the notes is some of Sherry's friends said that you and her were having a problem because of the John situation. Well, number one, I don't know who her friends are, because again, I don't I don't recall if he did tell me where he met her. I don't know even who these friends are, a problem. I guess if I spoke to her, I mean, I'll go on as far as a limb. And I don't want to say I spoke to her five times because that's probably not even true. I can't even remember. Again, did I meet him at her plate when he lived on Roscoe for, I think, quite a while, but I couldn't tell you how long he lived on Roscoe. And the only reason I remember the place now is because it's like a huge dope dope place now where they, you know, it may have been back then, but, you know, maybe we didn't know back then. I could have met her there. I could have, you know. Would you say there wasn't a lot of drama in this relationship? No, no, I don't think there was drama. Yeah, I mean, that's why I'm asking as far as what the friends are saying in regards to this, you know, the problems that they're saying you were having with with Sherry. I mean, it seems like the relationship is just going on even plain. Just I don't have a recollection of that at all. No, no. Because from what you're telling me is when you guys met at the hospital, I mean, you guys talk, but it wasn't from what you recall, confrontational from either side. I mean, I'm trying to, you know, turn my memory back, you know, and I'm trying, I can't even, I can't even picture the, you know, picture the conversation. I mean, I can't even picture the conversation. Well, let me ask you, I mean, at the hospital, it never got to the point where people are going, hey, you know, go to everybody, go to your own corner type of thing. I don't think so. Nothing like that? I don't think so. I mean, I really don't. I mean, if you, you know, if you say people said that, that's not ringing a bell to me at all. I mean, it's not. I mean, that that's not ringing a bell to me at all. Is there a time when you and Sherry were talking and John had to maybe go like, hey, you guys relax, you know, or anything like that? I think so. That's great. All right, Greg, what do you got? Well, the first thing to remind you of is this is an investigator. We have to lie with a straight face. And there's some of that coming out here. You can see it when she does the shock face. She's not shocked that they're bringing up this question, but she's done this enough times in an interrogation room that she clearly can do the shock face. When she's taking in information about the threat, watch her eyes narrow when they're talking about the situation and her blink rate go up. Then she does the dismissal face again just before that shock comes up. Then she says distance, distance, distance. If you say people said this is not ringing a bell, all in response to, do you remember this? Did it go this way? And then they bring up, was it an altercation where people were trying to separate the two of you? Now, if you're a police officer, she was a young police officer at this point. She was a uniformed officer, not an investigator. And you get in that kind of trouble, you're going to have a problem as a result of it. So you'll remember, I almost got in trouble there. No matter how hot headed you are, because you can lose your badge, you can get in all kinds of trouble. I mean, think about where that goes. And then as she gets to the end, she's got some real concern in her face. She turtles, but she doesn't just turtle her chin drops. That's the thing you're talking about, Chase, where they do that when they're recoiling from fear because they're protecting their throat. You'll talk about muscles and all that, but the piece that they do. And then Scott, I'll use your words, she does fading facts. Thanks, Tom. Those are words just drift off to nothing. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, police who are suspects use the lack of recall as a very common defense. So this is a very common thing when an interrogator or an investigator becomes a suspect. So I don't have any recollection of that at all. And that's a common trope. And I can tell you, that's one of the hardest things for an interrogator to overcome. Problems with memory is very hard for people like us to deal with. More of this over the top, as Mark would say, Olympic level, facial expression, exaggeration, and body movement. But I think it's interesting that there's a pattern now of explaining precisely why she's able to recall certain things with clarity. Anything with clarity that she can remember, she has to give you an exact reason why she remembers that. So if we're going on the behavior table of elements, we have three ambiguity statements, five non-answer statements, and we'll throw in a score of four for Scott's fading facts with a total score of 33. And Scott, I'll pass it to you. To who, me? Yeah. Okay, sorry. You're the only one here called Scott. Okay, I didn't know, oh, I didn't hear the Scott. Okay, yeah, Rick and Gervais is, for me, the best person to act like they're lying. He does this classic thing where he'll, he'll find something, he'll start pushing his, doing his head on, and he'll do this. He's really slowly, his mouth goes, we've seen her do that. Children do that. And he does it because he's copying a child. He's seen that a thousand times. We're seeing her do that. We're seeing this act go on and on and on. Her voice at the very beginning, really, really high. Oh no, I don't think there was drama. Come on then. That shows the stress in that is clamping her, her throat a little bit and making her voice go higher. She's fighting all the accusations at this point. Her adding information is slowing down a little bit. She's, she's pretty much still in defense mode here. So she's not, not putting anything in there. She's just sort of warding the other things off because that's all she can really do. And she still doesn't know what they have yet. She still doesn't know what that, that ace card is yet when it comes to her. And she's trying to, she's still trying to gather information for the structure of her story because she's got everything put in there. And still as she goes back to protect these, she's trying to think now, and this is a horrible way of doing it because you're throwing all your stuff on the ground and trying to arrange it and then saying, okay, start shooting. And she tries to run to each one, like a tennis player, when they hit the ball to try to protect each one of those spots. That's not working for her. Then at the end, of course, fading facts as she gets quieter because she, she, she's afraid at this point. She doesn't know what they've got. I think she knows she's, she's had it. And she's pretty much done. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, just one thing on this, which I really love, which is she's doing what I would call an illustrator of the metaphor. So kind of a metaphorical illustrator. By illustrator, I mean, she's literally drawing a picture for us, but she's drawing a picture of an idea of how the brain works. And the picture she's trying to create for us is it's a cog machine. It's kind of a clockwork kind of thing. And therefore, and that's, and it's not quite working, you know, my brain isn't quite working. It's a difficult Victorian clockwork machine and so hard to manage. And so, and the reason she wants to do that is because she wants the interrogators to go, oh, you know, that's right. The brain is really hard to manage, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, Winner, we totally get the situation you're in. All right, let's call it off. No, she's got clockwork brain. That's why that's the problem. So yeah, go, there must be somebody else did it somewhere else, everybody. Yeah, she's got clockwork brain. And that's why she does it twice, because she's getting nothing back. Clearly, they don't give her any eyebrow raises of, oh yeah, clockwork brain. Yeah, yeah, there's none of that goes on at all. And that's why she has to do it twice. Anyway, lovely, lovely to see that, that little idea playing out there. Illustrative kind of metaphor gesture going on there. She had Trump's skin. She would be clockwork orange. She would be clockwork orange, yes. Put it in the phone. That was a good one. Would you say there wasn't a lot of drama in this relationship? Oh no, I don't think there was drama. Yeah, I mean... That's why I'm asking as far as what the friends are saying in regards to this, you know, the problems that they're saying you were having with, with Sherry. I mean, it seems like the relationship is just going on even plain. That just, I don't have the recollection of that at all. No. Because from what you're telling me is when you guys met at the hospital, I mean, you guys talked, but it wasn't, from what you recall, confrontational from either side? I mean, I'm trying to, you know, turn my memory back, you know, and I'm trying, I can't even, can't even picture the, you know, picture the conversation. I mean, I can't even picture the conversation. Well, let me ask you, I mean, at the hospital, it never got to the point where people are going, hey, hey, you know, go to everybody, go to your own corner type of thing. I don't think so. Nothing like that? I don't think so. I mean, I really don't. I mean, if you, you know, if you say people said that, that's not ringing a bell to me at all. I mean, it's not. I mean, that, that's not ringing a bell to me at all. Was there ever a time when you and Sherry were talking and John had to maybe go like, hey, you guys relax, you know, or anything like that? I think so. So what do you got?