 Hi there folks! Thank you for coming to this session today. Good afternoon to those of you that are in Singapore and good morning to any of you who are joining from closer to where I am, which is Glasgow in Scotland. If you are catching up with me on the streams later in the day then I hope it is a very lovely whatever time of day it is that you're having. I can see the live broadcast from here but I can't see who's in the room so hi to anyone who's in the room. So let me do this. Okay so hi I'm Sarah Thomas from Wikimedia UK and I'm a programme manager with responsibility for programmes work in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and volunteering right across the UK. From January 2018 to December of 2022 I was Scotland programme coordinator and before that I was a Wikimedia in residence for the Scottish Library and Information Council and also for Museums Gallery Scotland, both of which are sector development agencies. Over the years I've done a lot of training for new editors, I've developed Glam and Education partnerships, I've done advocacy work around open licensing and worked with a lot of individual volunteers. With Wiki I do events and volunteer management and I also run a small charity. I just say my email address and my username are there just for anyone who wants to follow up with me later. The tiny URL that is on the screen will take you to an etherpad for this session. Inside you'll find links to all of the session slides and also to blank and example copies of the workbooks that I'm going to use and I'm going to demonstrate throughout the course of this session. There will be time set aside within this session for you to take some of those tools and have a go with them as they're just very basic frameworks but if you want to go into that etherpad just now to download those links, particularly the one that is worksheet one or workbook one and make notes. As you go along you are very welcome to do that. This is intended to be a session where you go away at the end of it to have something of your own. So as I said if you'd like to go in there look at workbook one, download a copy of that or make a copy if you're in G Drive. Hopefully that all works. I'm going to leave this the tiny URL will be on the screen for the next few slides and so hopefully everybody can get access to that. What I'm going to do today is split into two sections. First of all I'm going to talk through some of the iterations of Wikimedia UK's train the trainer program in which I've been involved since 2019. I'm going to talk about how we put them together, what we wanted to achieve with each of them and how we built on and amended the program year on year to respond to community need and the need of the chapter. I'm also going to introduce as I've kind of said a little bit, going to introduce a fairly simple planning tool that I've developed to help with designing and planning a train the trainer program and the idea is then that we'll spend some time with your own examples using this tool and by the end of the workshop you'll have not the whole thing an hour is not very long time not the whole thing but at least a start in order that you can see how you could implement a train the trainer program in your own chapter and what you'll need to do to get this started. There as I said there is time built in for you to fill in your own copies but if you'd like to again download those from the etherpad and have them open make notes as you go along. There is also a section on that etherpad for any questions and if I don't get time within this section session to answer any of those questions then I will keep that open for the rest of today and try and type answers there or again anybody wants to contact me by email absolutely please do do that. So this tool that I'm going to be using is basically a framework that I came up with while I was preparing for this session by going through and quite a lot of detail the different train the trainer iterations that I've been involved with and thinking about how it fits into the wider work of the chapter how we've approached and developed community support for the chapter so how we've developed our support for volunteers. So with the help of a whole lot of scribbles on a whiteboard as you can see here I've kind of reversed engineered something that I hoped would work for those at the beginning of the process. Now whilst so whilst I didn't design those initial train the trainer sessions using the tool I have basically retrofitted it on top of the last four and a half years work I did want to test that it works so this is what you should see the one on the left of the screen there will be what you'll see in the blank copy the ones on the right hand side are ones that I've filled in basically I found my 2023 iteration fed all that information in to test that it works and I've found a few things that I hadn't thought of so I'm hopefully I'm quite hopeful that this that this will work and I said these examples are all available on that etherpad the reason that I wanted to do this in this way or to try and develop this tool is that in all of the years I've been involved with wiki one of my kind of key pieces of learning has been that all of our chapters all of our affiliated groups while we share some common features we're all really very different in terms of size and in resources available to us and also in terms of the brilliant communities that we serve so the needs of your chapter might not be the same as the needs of my chapter what works for us might not necessarily work for you and but I'm hoping to share today some things that I hope I hope will be useful to you and but first a little bit of background and wikimedia UK have been running train the trainer for around about 10 years and train the trainer is a series of ongoing workshops that are run by wikimedia UK with the aim of giving volunteers the ability to teach others how to contribute to the wikimedia project wikimedia UK's trainers are there to provide training for others and they lead many training events across the UK we have about 50 active trainers in the UK plus another eight or nine who are now resident in other countries our program aims to equip our volunteers with the skills the confidence and the knowledge in order that they can lead training sessions for different groups of people both in person and online some of these opportunities come through wikimedia UK some of them are through leads or partnerships which the trainers develop themselves in terms of support and feedback we do an annual survey of volunteers and lead contacts at partner organizations this is called the community leaders survey and we also now have a slack channel for trainers a mailing list a program of additional top-up training and twice yearly meetings and peer learning sessions for the last year we've had a part-time member of staff as a volunteer coordinator we've actually just changed that role title and it's now called the outreach and community coordinator so what I'm going to do now is lead through a few examples of the kinds of courses that we've run over the last few years and I'm going to focus really on how we designed and run these courses according to the following things to the need that we were addressing and to the benefit that we hoped we would get to the resource that was available and the framework into which we could fit this course in terms of community support and community development the risks that might be inherent in any events or any process and what we could do to mitigate that and the lessons that we could learn from other events that we had run and what we would need to evaluate for that so that that kind of circle of ongoing improvement so always trying to be learning from the last thing that we did to improve the next thing that we did where are we now 22 cool I am on time excellent so in 2019 November 2019 we found ourselves in a situation where we had increasing amounts of work happening and increased demand for work happening in Scotland but without really the ability to meet that need through staff or volunteer trainers a lot of our trainers that were based in England and really it being too far for people to travel I was then and still now the only member of program staff in Scotland so this was of some immediate concern to myself we also wanted to develop the community in Scotland we wanted to also diversify the training pools demographic we had a little bit of budget to were put towards this program enough to cover travel and accommodation for a small group and also for a third party trainer who would lead two or three days of training specifically about learning styles how to design sessions how to assess training needs and who would also facilitate some practice training this was a wonderful guy called Bab Patel who I think maybe it took this picture in the end with my phone which is why he's not in there but he was in a previous slide we've worked with him in various capacities since 2019 I cannot recommend him enough he's great he's a really nice guy Bab worked with us to design a training course that would meet our needs at that point in time and provided us with a really detailed training course based on his long experience of doing training for trainers in lots of different sectors the focus of this iteration of train the trainer was as it had been before I came on board focused on training people how to teach or how to train rather than developing wiki skills or having any particular set session we did have really good feedback about this one trainer who normally works as a university lecturer said that they learned more at this session than they did at their professional training which was a wonderful thing to say but maybe also slightly worried but we did also get feedback from people already at educational institutions who said that they would really have liked to have come on train the trainer but they felt that the the material was such that they already knew how to teach they didn't need to be taught how to teach they wanted to learn more about more advanced wiki skills how to run an event that kind of thing and that's interesting that was good feedback and then we'll return to that later for the planning of this session we adopted a cohort approach we wanted the group to bond as a group to help each other and to learn from each other to develop their networks to allow for peer learning that happens beyond the course the duration of the training course itself we put out a call to our mailing lists and also to specific individuals within the community who we thought might be interested in upskilling themselves for notes of interest in taking part in the course as part of the application then we made it explicit so that we that we were looking to diversify our training pool and then followed up with each applicant over email and over the phone to determine whether or not we thought they'd be suitable for the training and in the end I think only one person wasn't suitable and actually in that case they de-selected themselves and as it wouldn't really when we had a discussion about what the training going to comprise they said that really that wasn't what matching what they wanted to get out of volunteering with the charity and before individuals could take place could take a place on the training and this is the case with all iterations of trained the trainer and we have them sign a volunteer agreement which bound them by particular standards of conduct of behaviour and in this instance set an expectation that they would lead a minimum of one or two events for us each year either being sessions which we where we would ask for assistance where we would put a call out for volunteers or it could also be an event that that they had come up with themselves that they were leading themselves and this was around a particular kind of risk or concern that we had that there might not be enough opportunities or maybe they would all be they wouldn't be in the right place within the country for people to lead themselves for people to kind of feel that they were getting the most out of volunteering so we added this option that like they can be events that you are running yourself and then hopefully that gives people more practice and feel they can feel more ownership over their training the group included a variety of levels of wiki skill and some people were relative newbies to wikimedia and others were really experienced some people had assisted me with training in the past and some people were from groups or organisations that I'd worked with and and we wanted to develop where we wanted to develop that group's capacity and and one or two people were really very new we wanted everyone to start the course so we have this wide range of experience but we wanted everybody to start the course with a minimum baseline of wiki skills and so I put together a program of weekly emails that were delivered for I think six weeks once a week for six weeks before the course which offered prompts for practicing editing including areas of wiki which were you know less common such as articles for deletion or encouraging folks to write and publish new articles if they hadn't done that for a while there was also supplementary reading on the wikimedia movements on open licensing and a basic introduction to wiki data and wikimedia commons this list was something that I put together based on my own experience of running training for new editors and I also got input from the various uk wikimedeans in residence I also put together a google group mailing list for the cohort so that they could get to know each other a little before the in-person section of the course which we continued to use after the training weekend and then after the training I followed up with each of those trainers with the intention that each individual would have the opportunity either to jump right in and start running their own sessions or if they would prefer to support me or another member of staff or another trainer the few sessions while they develop the confidence to be able to lead on their own the idea was then and still is now to invest in volunteers for the long term and whilst that is admittedly quite heavy in terms of resource and I believe that it would be worth it and I still believe that it is worth it we were just a little part of the way into this follow-up when covid happened so everything kind of changed when lockdown in the uk hits our needs for trainers changed as a chapter we experimented with different ways of delivering wiki training online and after a while we got it down to a pretty standard formula which we felt worked or mostly worked the problem that we had was that it was really only the staff who were able to deliver training online or who had had a lot of experience delivering training online we toyed with the idea of running training one of the big discussions at the time was whether online training would still be something that we would be doing once lockdown ended indeed it was very much something that we are still doing now that lockdown has ended so we had a brainstorming session with our existing training pool to determine what their interest was what they felt the needs were and again we worked with BAV to put together a training course for existing trainers that would talk a little bit about training design a little bit about how to adapt what we know what we knew and what we know about running training in person to online and we also did one that was about tips and tricks and event management and how to use tools and I led that session we ran this course over three sessions one on design one on tools and then one as an optional opportunity to practice with the other trainers who'd been through the course and we did this twice and we did it in two sessions sorry two iterations to accommodate those people who could who were available during daytime and those who were only available in the evening I think that so one of the key points of interest for me with this training is that we managed to reactivate a couple of trainers who we'd not heard from in a while and that made me think a lot about how we should be investing in volunteer trainer development beyond that initial set of train the trainer sessions and I think it was at some point relatively soon after this this kind of top-up training that we created a mailing list that was just for our accredited trainers all of our accredited trainers with the idea being that we could inject some of that peer learning and bonding experience that we'd seen with the 2019 cohort into the rest of the training pool and the 2019 cohort had stayed in general and they are still really engaged and really active moving on in 2021 well in winter of 2021 we were in the UK still in lockdown and having looked at the changing needs of those who were asking us to deliver training and the needs of our community we took a slightly different approach to our standard train the trainer and this is what we said in our call for participants and we put this out in the winter of 2021 in the past we've offered our main train the trainer program as a three to four day in-person training course and it's often focused on training design and pedagogy this time however we're taking a slightly different approach which we hope will offer more flexibility to our volunteer trainers and which we have developed in response to feedback from the community and from partner organizations the aim of this round of training will be to equip volunteer trainers with the skills experience and resources to deliver a standard introduction to Wikipedia such that would take place at a standard online editor-thon or wiki workshop drawing on the experience of a number of trainers and staff we've developed a set of training slides and exercises which can be delivered without the requirement for the volunteer trainer to do their own course design in time and should they so desire members of this cohort could be supported to deliver training in person and with their own design so here what we wanted to do we wanted to do something that was quite simple or at least that was a little more simple than that three day three to four day quite intensive course that would have been delivered in person again we couldn't guarantee that we would still be allowed to gather in person and but we wanted to still allow people to become trainers to still keep that pipeline of new people coming through and for us this also came hand in hand with a growing understanding and also capacity for supporting volunteers in an ongoing way at some point in 2021 as I said we developed this email and we floated the idea of doing trainer meetups online to share their experiences and in response to feedback we got from our annual community leader survey we'd also run a series of wiki data training workshops which were open to both GLAM partners and to our community for this iteration we again did a decent amount of pre-course information and although I don't think it was as effective as it could have been because we were sending those emails over the holiday period so while some of the cohort had a lot of time away from work and were able to engage with that material those who were doing it more as part of their work some people just wanted to disconnect completely over the holiday period and we've got to have respect for that the course itself consisted of a short briefing session and then attendance at a public editor fund that we ran that they would attend as a participant observer so we briefed them that this is what's going to happen we got to know everybody and then we ran this editor fund I think on like a Thursday evening I'm sorry a Saturday during the day and we invited members of the public as well as all of our training cohorts and the idea being you are attending this editor fund but also experiencing it as a participant observer to experience it and to analyse it critically why does this section come after this section what's useful what kind what are the common queries that come up having a look at that infrastructure around it and then on the Sunday after that we did a debrief of that section and so talking in groups and annotating copies of the slides to say okay what worked what didn't what could be improved and this was a lot of work in this iteration for myself I will not lie and whilst the in-person sessions had required a bit of work in advance and quite a lot of admin and logistics there was still a lot of digital logistics that I had to do and a lot of work went into organising the editor fund now as the lead trainer for the editor fund it was quite stressful in just in terms of I was being watched by all of our potential new trainers plus our trading lead bath and that that's a little bit stressful as you're being as you're being watched and analysed and it also I did say because of the kind of completely online nature of it it was a little bit more difficult to follow up in paper it shouldn't have been but there was something about not having had that in-person contact with people that made that follow up just a little bit more challenging it also felt again because I think just of the purely online nature a little bit easier for people to drop out of the program and so that level of engagement I felt was just a little more difficult to quantify okay last one and then we shall be moving on last one and by the winter of 2022 we were again able to meet in person but we didn't have a geographical focus so it wasn't like 2019 when we were just looking for trainers from Scotland from this we were looking at trainers all over the UK and we also wanted to deliver some training for our existing trainers so we decided to go with a hybrid event which meant that we could invite some people in person and host some online and still be able to be within budget hybrid events are not easy and Bav who we consulted on this workshop but who didn't run it and said that hybrid meetings are three meetings there is the one that happens in the room there is the one that happens online and then there is the one that happens where those two things meet and it is it is a lot of work it is it's tiring it's much more tiring I think than running a purely in-person or a purely online event it's worth nothing and by this time by December of 2022 we had a new volunteers coordinator in place and she dealt with most of the admin and the logistics for the event so this was a pretty major increase in resource we slack in advance of the events and the structure also changed a little so we did those initial briefings and communications over slack and then we invited people to attend that public editor fund again online as participant observers and then the first day of the weekend's training was the debrief of that editor fund and then we had we also included in that a session on learning design and learning styles ultimately we were still aiming for people to be able to deliver this one particular thing this introduction to Wikipedia course we had a mixture of different wiki skills and so this time I didn't send out so many emails but we tailored it and to the individual to say how confident are you on wiki what sort of stuff would you like us to send you and then send that on the second day of the training we ran a session on developing partnerships and events and this was open to as I said existing trainers as well as new trainers and we also had a meal together on the Saturday nights which was really good for getting to know people and it was also really lovely to be able to introduce some of those new trainers to some of our existing trainers and community members I really like this structure there was something really lovely about being able to get that face to face time with people and also for them to be able to meet some of our existing trainers however I was very aware and I still am that it felt a little like we were reducing some of that contact time that we had with trainers and I felt that we'd maybe lost that part where we were getting them to practice their learning in a closed environment before they were asked to put it into action now again we had to kind of respond to the cohort and most people came back and said yeah I'm happy enough to go ahead and lead my own sessions or maybe they would assist somebody else but if we hadn't been if they hadn't been that comfortable then I think maybe some practice editing again with a few of the trainers from the same cohort to kind of make that safer space would have been really beneficial okay so that's a whistle stop tour of Wikimedia UK's train the trainer for the last few years and that's that's kind of what we've done we are planning a 2023 iteration of the course which will again look a little bit different we're kind of tweaking that model as we go to try and make the best from it and I've been working at looking at what we've been learned over the past few years how our framework for supporting volunteers has grown and changed and indeed I've been working on that and looking in particular at mitigating some of those risks I've also just got an access to wiki learn and if anyone here missed a SAS presentation earlier on wiki learn I definitely recommend that you go back and watch that and I'm also planning so hopefully hopefully if I can I'll get my head around it and make it work I'm going to load a certain amount of that pre-course information and those things that happen before the in-person contact time into wiki learn and so to try a little bit in the cohort approach again to enrich the learning experience and to improve the quality of the learning and also the range of topics that we can cover earlier in 2023 so earlier this year we also ran a trainer trainer in Africa at course and so for that last iteration we had a large number of inquiries from Nigeria and we weren't able to accommodate them within that session and but we thought we would run something that was specifically for that cohort which we did in partnership with Touchy Precious whose session I think unfortunately absolutely clashes with this one so I want to go back and back and watch that. Touchy's great. The course that she ran was much more focused on tools than some of our UK session had been and I learned a lot from that and I'm hoping to impart some of that knowledge I'm hoping to incorporate some of that approach into our next iteration so my main priorities and challenges for the 2023 iteration the main things that are in my head as I go to design this next iteration are to ensure that the standard of training is still high even though we have less contact time and it's not as intense as that original 2019 one was. I want to do more extensive pre-course training and make sure that we have a really solid program of follow-up support in place. I want to bring back some of those tips and tricks so some of those how to use tools or interesting or useful things that it's good to know or good to have set up on your account and I want to be able to ensure that we're putting focus on learning styles and soft skills so-called soft skills as well as delivering that product that's introduction to Wikipedia so and also to kind of acknowledge that our products can be more flexible the standard introduction to Wikipedia is fine but for example some of the groups that I've been working with have found it a little bit too long or a little bit too bulky so we've been able to chop that down into say two 20 minute sections and take a much longer approach so that flexibility and that awareness that that flexibility is possible needs to be built into what we can give to trainers. Okay so these are some things that I think you should consider this is a little bit of a checklist yeah okay cool so this is a little bit of a checklist of things that I think it's important for you to think about when you are planning a course just starting points this is not the totality but there's just some starting points so hopefully get you into designing a course to designing a program that works for your chapter or affiliate so the first of which is define your audience and define the need and who are you looking to aim sessions at what is the need for your chapter what is the need for your community the the eventual course that you end up running the content that you end up running may depend very much on who applies and what skills they are looking to develop what skills they need to develop and when you put a call out for participants whether you share that on a mailing list on socials on your website or whether you approach people directly who you think would be great trainers remember that you can be selective you may be that you are looking to increase the diversity of your training pool as we were and you can put emphasis on we are looking for people from different demographics if you get somebody applying who maybe you're concerned about wouldn't be a good trainer then allow yourself to have that conversation in terms of the budgets do you have any budget available if you don't if you're a small chapter and you don't have any monetary budget available it may be that what you are looking at is is your own resource and your own time and how much of your own time you are able to give to developing this this program now the thing to remember in there I think is that your own time is still valuable your own time still means something your own time isn't is finite it is not infinite if you want to put time aside into developing a program how much time is that and if that means that you have to drop something else from your program of work what might that be the fourth thing is defining your learning objectives and let those dictate your content do not forget soft skills as well as factual knowledge do you want to teach people about active listening do you want to teach people about how to hold space within a room and all of these kinds of things as well as the knots and bolts of he is how to use the outreach dashboard or do you want to get event coordinator rights on wiki you need to find the right trainer now for us we've we've used external trainers and we've also used people from the staff team from the volunteer team sorry from the staff team and that might just be the case of looking who's got which skills what skills are you needing to develop do you need to outsource that do you have that within your team pre-course and post-course support I'd argue are very very important in terms of preparing the ground for your trainers to come into and also afterwards that they feel supported that they still feel confident that they get an opportunity to practice and the last thing is looking at risks and planning how to mitigate them so how do you get the right candidates how do you get the right sort of people and does that mean that you will have to amend your marketing plan that kind of thing and are you going to get attrition are you looking for people that are really committed do you want to look at having an agreement whereby they say we'll do one or two however many events per year and how long would you expect them to be a certified trainer for all of these might come into and how you design that course so with that in mind this is when I stopped talking for a little bit and we kind of go over to the people in the room I hope this works because I can't see you so fingers crossed what I'm going to say now is that again if you haven't already got that etherpad open you can go to this tiny URL and you should be able to see you should be able to see this workbook one and if you open that up you should then see this lovely thing here and then yours will be set to view only as far as I am aware you should then still be able to go to file and make a copy and so you shouldn't be able to edit this one but please file and make a copy and what we are going to do really and I'm going to set time aside I have a little timer and everything set up is basically this this six section framework here and is designed to give you space to put in bullet points the answers to these questions that are highlighted in yellow so what need do you have and what benefits are you hoping to derive remember those those can be different things what resource do you have available to you and and into what volunteer framework or community support framework does this course fit will this course fit the answers to that might be not very much and that's fine because we are wanting to design for your chapter and your affiliate you also want to look at what risks there are and again this will be specific to your context and the last section is what have you learned from evaluating other activities what do you know about your community what do you know about the kind of activities that you've run and what do you want to evaluate for this project what are your measures of success going to be now this workbook is in two we're going to come to the second bit later but for the first half we're just we're just going to be looking at this top section here let me go back to my slides and cool yeah okay cool so we're going to be filling in this top section this a section answering those assessment questions and please remember i'm going to put like six minutes uh six thirty yeah i'm going to put six minutes uh on the on the timer here it doesn't have to be everything it doesn't have to be complete this is just a start okay so hopefully you can see that timer oh yes i can see you can see that timer wonderful so folks i'll just shift that over so you can get the tiny url if you need it and i'm going to spend six minutes and hopefully you will be able to make some notes and get started on answering those questions hi folks just going to take about another minute there and then i'll go through an example and then we'll go back to the second part of that workshop just managed to do that classic thing of not unmuting myself that was quite poor i hope that was enough time for folks to get a little few things noted down i was going to see maybe if people wanted to share but i don't think this will quite allow it in the format that we have so what i want to show is um the kind of thing um that i would have put in if i was for example defining that 2019 session and so for needs i had more trainers in scotland adding capacity that didn't require me to be running training trainers available to develop capacity scottish community to feel valued within resource i had some budgets um i had partners in glasgo that i knew i could approach to get a venue for free to reduce the demands on our budget and we had some knowledge within the existing trainer community and we had that volunteer role description i was a little bit worried about not getting the signups we had some varying levels of wiki skill and i was worried that people maybe wouldn't enjoy it and i was also a little worried that maybe after the training people wouldn't really want to get involved so things that i did to mitigate that were to you know really wanted people to feel valued um for example and to have that pre-course training in place so that's a kind of example of the sorts of things that i would put in there i did not get a chance to fill in the second one what i will show instead before we go on to that second little session um is filling in this other part of this tool again this is just a way to organize your thoughts and for it to be specific to your chapter and the second session is sort of scaffolding and the container and so basically based off the things that you have in this top section you're going to go now and have a look at the next section which is what kind of people are you looking for and what skills do they need to learn and based on that above based on the above and everything that you've done and the answer to that first question what actions do you need to take how can you mitigate those risks that you've identified that you've identified above so again we're going to take maybe six minutes this is the kind of thing that i have done this example is available in the etherpad just as an example of the kind of thing that worked i initially did this on a whiteboard so that i could scribble all over the place because i like doing that but this section is for define the people and the skills what is the container that you want and then round about that what actions do you need to take what is the scaffolding that you need to be able to make that work what sort of things do you need to think about so if i go back to here and i'll put that on just looking at the time i'm going to put five minutes on this time again so very short space of time but i'm just hoping that you can go away with a little bit of something to be able to start on and so i'll start that five minutes okay folks just one minute left and then i'll go to the last couple of slides that i've got okay hi that's us back everybody thank you very much i'm just gonna do the last last couple of slides there um i hope that folks got something from that i hope that you have at least the start of things as i said it's just a very simple tool that will hopefully help you to organize those thoughts against those things that that can be really useful that we've found really useful for planning a trainer trainer and there is as you'll see in the event in the event right in the etherpad a link to this workbook too this is not for now this is a potential follow-up this is a thing you want to do when you have completely completed that first section and it is a simple way again just to look at your planning areas who needs to do it when those need to go against um some people use gantt charts some people use lots and lots of post-it notes um for me i find um that this has been kind of useful just to organize my thinking and to figure out what needs to happen when as i said i like doing things on whiteboards so uh this is what my one currently looks like uh this whiteboard is sitting to the right of me in my office in Glasgow um i again it's just again that framework has just been quite useful for me to think about all of the things that we need to think about and for how we make a better trainer trainer session uh i see we're 24 minutes past if anybody has any questions and would like to ask them of me just now then please do otherwise you can leave things into the etherpad or send me an email i'm always very happy to see people on email or indeed jump on a video chat with anybody if i can be of any assistance um i hope everybody has a lovely wikamania but yeah i'll take any questions just now if anybody hasn't oh yeah i can see somebody in the room with their hand up whether i hope i will be able to hear you hi hope oh yeah microphones on good um hi belinda here from wikamedia australia um we have a number of uh long time trainers who um yeah i'm trying to engage with we're actually um have just had staff for the last uh i'm so sorry i can't i can see that somebody's speaking but i can't hear you oh okay uh another microphone maybe hey i can hear you know wonderful yay that was a long delay long way for the message to go um yeah we have um only had staff for the past year and we're trying to re-engage with some of our long term trainers and we're finding it difficult because they um are so used to doing things their own way and it's a little difficult to get them to come back together with us and sort of start a group do you have any suggestions on how to engage trainers or facilitators who um possibly um yeah just don't want to engage are keen to just keep doing their own thing and delivering their own sessions thanks yeah yeah it's really interesting i think that slowly is probably the best answer that i can give um we have uh found i mean i've certainly found that we have people who've been on board for a long time uh and some people are completely happy to just do the things that they've been doing and keep on doing that and that's great but it is also really nice to be able to bring them back on board so we've tried different communication methods um and again with the caveat that that will be specific to your chapter um about what those benefits are and i think making it really clear um to the trainer like what is the benefit that they get from engaging with the chapter what is the added value that they get from engaging with you um where you have new people and you're kind of you're um uh stewarding them through that process that is a lot more clear and because you're able to offer training you're able to offer support all this kind of thing um but i think yeah having having a look at you know what what is that benefit what's the ask what are you asking of them and what can you offer in return how what is the value of that relationship um how can you i can you add value or provide support to them and make that clear um but i do also think that that's slowly um and within people's comfort levels is really really important and okay folks uh thank you so much um it's been nice to uh virtually beam to second poor uh it is now just about half past nine in Glasgow so uh i'm going to go and have some breakfast uh i hope you have a lovely rest of your wikimania um thank you so much and um yeah have a lovely time bye