 Hello folks Hey, yes, very weird because this meeting is not in my calendar. I don't know what happens, but it seems today we should have a meeting and but it's very short because we only have one thing to discussion because We're recently talking about updates the The the landscape of things that regarding to the application management and delivery part because if you look at The same current since the landscape. Yeah, I can share it with you About issue so so today if you look at the current since the landscape for the Application management part. It's it's kind of different from what we are Seeing in community for example Database right now is part of the application definition and the development which this is this is because at very beginning and the people think that if you want to develop software in this database, but Today obviously we have something like a six right. We have six storage It should be more it should be more appropriate to cover this database section and for the application delivery part they do need to Refactor the application definition image build and the CI CD part in this landscape, so the basic idea is that People are now talking it does happen to you see and you see over like discussion and see chairs discussion that We basically want to refactor This part of the this part of the landscape But there are some several proposals one proposal is that We want to create in another tab here like service You may want to create another tab which name is application management and delivery or we actually refactor this card to split it into multiple pieces and The database will be moved to a Independent Storage card. So this is the idea. We are currently have so if you guys have any idea around to the landscape refactoring, please You can comment in the documentation you can just erase the discussion in this meeting So this is the only issue we want to discuss in this in this meeting Anyone has any ideas or suggestions So so I'm looking at this right and I'm thinking about applications and I see it's called application definition and development And so when I look at this, I see somebody who's Building stuff or Preparing stuff to run as workloads, right? So it'd be like a workload in Kubernetes. You're trying to get your application up and going, right? And so this isn't so much for cluster operators or systems operators or any of that kind of thing It's it's a practical. How do we show this stuff up front for the people who have to Build and operate stuff and I like the fact that this whole category is on top Because it's the largest potential group of people, right? The people who build Kubernetes and these tools are the smallest They know the most most intimately and the next above that you've got people who operate these tools They're the next largest group that manage everything and then people actually use all of this stuff to run there The thing they care about is the largest potential group of people and so putting that at the top. I really like So when I see something like database and some of these other things I see this is something that they want to use as a dependency So if I'm going to build an application, I don't want to grab You know Maria DB and go manage it myself I always just grab it as a dependency. I grab it as a sass from a public cloud or a service I grab it I for a long time use apt install to get it because I'm not going to deal with my sequel or Maria or Postgres Or any of these things myself. I want to get it from somebody who knows more You get it as a dependency and so as somebody who's doing that I want to get my dependency in a cloud native way, right in a way that works best for my platform What are the ways that work within my style? and getting it as a dependency and that's a common problem that I think people have and so Having it up front like this unless we break it out and say here's different types of dependencies that are common Get it in a cloud native way I don't know that I want to put it into a different section because you want to make it intuitive, right somebody who Has to set up storage, right? So when I go to use storage in a Kubernetes cluster I don't know how it's implemented a lot of the time and I don't care as somebody who's deploying my application into it Usually I don't care I might care if it's something like NFS and I'm gonna use a database because I'm not gonna have the kind of block level performance But that's still really rare if I deploy my application into Kubernetes running in AWS or Kubernetes running into Azure It's it's auto provision for my volumes. It's the block store. I don't even think about the implementation anymore Right. So when you're talking storage and you're talking database It's kind of different target audiences, right depending on the level and so the level of abstraction here I'd want to keep databases in a way that says hey, I'm a person who's doing application Development and getting my application up and running here. And this is where you get the dependencies That's how I'd like to see it broken up and done in a manner that helps them Yeah, I think any one here. So yes, actually depending on the I think it's actually depending on the abstraction abstraction level about About this. Oh, you can just a comment in the doc. Yes for any input you want to have regarding to landscape refactoring so yes, actually depending on the abstraction level and So right now what I am I can get from this landscape is this that base section is more target only I think only It's not only application developers. It's more like on the Database developers or DBAs to focus on but there are indeed some some other project like theta. I check that project. It's more like a It is actually a library for developers to consume the database, for example. So there are also several different project on this Mixed together in this in this section. So we should definitely need to figure it out. Yeah, because if it's for kind of more The if it's not at that application developer application operator level then I would Put it somewhere else But if it is I'd want to keep it clumped together So if I'm an application developer an application operator I can come to this one row and look across and see here are different things that would be very useful for me without having to Find it in some other row Yeah, I agree with you here and also do you think that we need to Think with the seek storage around this reflecting landscape because they are a large part here, which are I think they're all in their scope So where is this document that they're doing it in? This is actually a it have a repo landscape repo They're doing it over on the read just the repo in itself. Yeah, if you want to Know where that is. I know And also another thing is the streaming and messaging part and do you think it's also the concern of the developer or operator? Or we should put them into service part service part. What do you mean put them into service part? I mean serverless part. There is already a service section for example Chloe but close events is actually here. It's not part of the service section I don't know we should touch that part or we just delete it alone. What is on the serverless card off hand? Already Because cloud events is a tool for people who are building applications and consuming What's on the serverless? security Framework, I don't even see where it would fit over here. It's more like a specification. You'd want to use Hmm. Who owns the serverless page? Yeah, I think the working group service is it okay the serverless working group still exists Yeah So right Yeah, you can see here. There are multiple issues if you want to refactor this landscape So I think the goal is clear that if you want to You know have a have a section or a card or a page for application Developers and operators right right now There are a lot of things mixed mixed together in this application section which make people feel very confused when reading this landscape So you're thinking of a serverless page for application developers and operators If I don't think it's a service page we can have something like no, I mean a page like the serverless one I'm sorry. Yeah page like the serverless one another tab basically. Yeah, something like that But we also keep it here. I don't have any opinion that we adjust the talk with the lawyers and brands they to have different ideas regarding to this So we can do both and I think we need to re-evaluate whether we want to go to Reach direction. I think yeah, I think I can start a documentation or we can just a We can just add ideas in the in the meeting notes documentation to To list the options that we have here and How we do the refactoring has anybody done A study or a poll or anything where we collected information from people who've looked at the site and done anything Right, I wouldn't want to do it in a fact. I actually want to look at what end users have to say has any data been collected on that Not yet, but I think it's a good idea that they should start something like survey A poll like people we have some input regarding to this. It's a really good idea Could we work with the cncf to have a survey and then maybe have a link to that at the top so people who come here Could see fill out a survey and what you think and they could click through and then they could fill out and give their feedback Yeah, I think we can do that That might help us get some some actionable stuff. So us as insiders of the community trying to figure out what people who come here to consume things are looking for We we're probably going to miss things. We don't know what we don't know where their hard spots are because we already know how to navigate But if we could somehow survey them then we might be able to collect some more Actionable data and maybe some insights that we hadn't thought of I see. Yeah. What kind of content do you think should be included in the survey? No idea off the top of my head. I'd be curious what others had to thought though I think I also need to check some other examples from the other Cigs or Or are the organizations regarding to how to do that? But yeah, I believe it's a good idea. I'm all I'm thinking about Sending out a survey regarding to this landscape for a long time. I think we should definitely do that at first day Okay, so yeah, um, I don't mention this is Talk if you want to discuss today and I think we have several actions that we are first have a place to comment ideas and the the The options we have I think maybe we just do that only making those dark. We can create section for discussion the landscape and meantime, uh, I will try to discuss with since they see if things that stuff can help us to create a survey to get input from the community to help us to reshape this landscape And the goal is that we want to have a section no matter in this page or in another tab Which focus on application developers and operators instead of like today It makes being a lot of things together. We should like which makes people reading this landscape very difficult to understand Okay And I will update the uh, not making notes Yeah, I see uma is also a commenting on this Only side here, so maybe you know you want to share even a bit of a meeting um, yeah, so for for me the um Application delivery and management the projects that contribute to a better delivery May be spread across different tiers. There may be Some networking project that may be helping for an application management and delivery So it's a complex subject for me. I don't know how to I cannot envision just taking the existing image build and CICD projects together and then repacting them To be calling it as application management. Um, to be honest, I'm a bit confused So it may be a good idea to start putting some new thoughts This delivery is becoming an important Important subject. There are many new projects coming into this SIG There is chaos that we represent infrastructure delivery cross-plane operators Right Many things that are coming into this SIG so Yeah, so it it may be a good idea, but that's just my opinion to have it as a separate tab and start having some good discussions there Okay, get it. Thank you for input um Yeah, I also agree with you here as uh, it's from my personal view I think it's also maybe better to have a separate tab And just that you mentioned because there are many projects that cause these cause different scopes and I will also guess that we have we will have a large number of The projects which may we've been able to categorize them into different scopes for example Some some are more for personal application packaging. Some are more for personal workloads management Yeah, but again, I will ask more people try to give something to input on that because they are also somebody who raised a concern because Uh, we basically will move a lot of projects from the front page of the landscape to a different tab in that sense So they are very not sure How we keep the front page of the landscape A check tip, I mean, there are a lot of Because we basically will move a lot of projects from that page to another page Yeah, so I will I will try to collect and collect the input from different sites regarding that. Okay Here's a question. So because I don't want to keep the landscape attractive. I want to keep it useful and That that's kind of hard. I'm wondering if the cncf has any user experience designers Uh, those are folks who could look at who the users are How do you craft a good experience to present information that kind of thing? Yeah, I get a point here. I'm not sure about that But I think if we can ask Amy regarding to this issue So let's see if they have any designer or user experience people To give us input about how to make this thing just admission useful Be a better user experience at the same time Yeah, I'm wondering if they've got somebody over there because you know, this is all the linux foundation Which means there are people in corners somewhere who know stuff If we could if we could maybe find somebody who's better at At information architecture and that kind of thing than we are it would be They'd come up with something better than I I would recommend Yeah, of course Okay, I've all I would write down these actions in making notes. I'm trying to uh, All fly pin different people who are interested in this section And so hopefully we can have a new New shape to landscape You may maybe next month Okay Well, uh, this is what we try to with what we want to focus to what's purpose on discussing in today's meeting I'm not sure if anyone else have input or suggestions or idea regarding to the landscape Okay, so it seems we are all good here and Let's just finish this very quick. Uh, see gap delivery meeting now I see gap viewing online meeting And all the record will be uploaded to youtube later And thank you for your participation and discussion and see you next time. Bye. Bye