 Okay, hello It's it's rare that I get to speak to someone in the same time zone. Yeah, I think we are in the same time zone Yeah, yeah, my brain so used to like adding adding a subtracting two hours or so or sometimes seven or six hours So nice. So Mert. I'm nice to have you this. This is a Bit of a different call. This is the CNCF sig sig network call. So We run it in a little bit of the same fashion as some of the other open-source calls But but I'll send a link to the meeting minutes and we'll give a few others some time to join. I Guess it is more cooperative and more I Will see more other companies or Foundations here. Yeah, that's probably Well Maybe actually in a lot of respects not the meetings that the open-source meetings that we hold in the layer 5 community Are attended by more companies than usually show here But yeah, it's it's good. It's a healthy collection. It's a great venue to I'm engaged with others from different companies for sure because When I look at the documents, I see such as For us the other companies like Mastercard Asia Corp, Cisco Totally, yep, we just don't write the names down in the other meeting minutes So you may not be as obvious to you that that's happening, but but yeah, I couldn't stay there five and I say mine But if it is not acceptable, I can't wait because I'm not working here for layer five I'm just a comment member. I Just lost mine. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's um, I either which way you're comfortable if you put layer five great I'll I'll embrace it. Um, if you put something else, um, that's fine as well Yeah, you you made that true yesterday made that happen already Thanks. Yeah All right, well, huh, let me give me a moment to poke a few people to make sure that That they come off from holiday, so I'll be right back Maybe we're in another zoom group because in the meeting notes there are a New meeting link interesting so in the In the doc that says CNCF signal work meeting notes Now in the Kubernetes network seek the meeting Let me share the doc. Yeah, you know what? That's a common point of confusion. It's actually that's a separate Meeting that's for Kubernetes only Whereas this one is for all of the CNCF For so inclusive of Kubernetes inclusive of Lincordie. Oh, I see Like they're broad and so Let's Let me just check the calendar to make sure that we're not CNCF public calendar This is the first Thursday of the month, right? All right. So forget it. All right. Well, we're on we've got a couple of us here It let's go let's let's uh, let's Get started. I'm irrespective Let me let me share the screen. It's a good deal. We've got there it is Right fair enough very good. So so we're about six minutes past. Let's get on. This is the CNCF sig network meeting Well, the first one of 2021 So, um Very nice to have mert. Thanks for coming word awful. Thank you for coming We've got a topic. I'm very very relevant to the two of you. We may have some others that join along the way um the Given that this is the first time for I think the the two of you to be on the call. That's probably good to give a brief Lay of the land and so to speak actually one point of clarification that we're also was just highlighting is is that it's Commonly confused that this meeting is the same that there's there's one sig network in the world and and And that's that actually turns out not to be the case So there's the kubernetes sig network and the cncf sig network Ones is a subset of the next The kubernetes sig network tends to be a little more active and busy a lot of folks participating and try to Do more networking things in kubernetes We Given that this typically isn't project specific We're not always getting into the weeds here But but but I think today we're going to be able to a little bit So at a so so there's within the cncf sig network There is a working group called the service mesh working group the service mesh working group has a few work streams And so you can see the the charter And some some slides we tend to give an update at each of the last cube cons on things that we're doing This is the the charter of the group This there are two sort of two service mesh Working groups or two service mesh groups within the cncf. I'm currently so one is this one which tends to be Tends to be a little bit more of Vendors represented or projects and their maintainers tend to represent here and come here I'm gonna try to help advance the state of tech the other group is Falls within the end users area of the cncf And so that that service mesh That tends to be the service mesh user group Which Tends to advance The state of the art in terms of how you run these things and run them well So there are a number of initiatives within the service mesh working group Um, we want where some of these um, some of you might be familiar with already we've we've talked about about a lot of these in the past we've um begun to reuse the SIG network meeting time to go advance these initiatives um Up until the point that we need to Provide more time for other SIG network topics. Um, so we'll cover those first because they'll they'll take priority Uh And the really there's just one today and it's just an announcement that um ambassador had been has been proposed for to be an incubation project and um Had's undergone due diligence uh for quite some time and That due diligence is initially done privately Having passed that private due diligence. It now opens up to a public request for comment So whether you're a cncf member or not if you've got an opinion or no public comment Uh, you can review the docs and chime in right now. There's a discussion going on with respect to the name of the project ambassador And it it's uh, it's to be renamed and right now the the proposal for that name is ingress controller for envoy proxy Or I guess more Sort of specifically that it would be an acronym ic for e So I'll let you guys read through if it's of interest. There's just some discussion there Um, any any comments on this before we go Onto other topics So I think at this point like it it's probably high probability that ambassador Um lands in the cncf as an incubation level project. Um, it's gotten approval from this SIG. It's got um approval from Sort of the representative to uc member And so they're they're talking about names name for the project. So Okay, uh, good. So Any any comments on ambassador? All right, so we'll sort of switch streams into Uh service mesh working group topics one of the ones that we've yet to introduce here and go through Relatively thoroughly is one um an initiative called get nighthawk And my hope is is that this helps pull together a few of the different initiatives there So let's let's take a look because let's walk through what get nighthawk is um so for most it's a It's an effort being stewarded here within service mesh working group It is uh, I think, you know, probably a tentative name get nighthawk I think I think that makes sense for all those that are involved. No one has voted otherwise or come up with anything Uh smarter. So Uh, the project itself is Well, it focuses on nighthawk. I mean making nighthawk accessible to the rest of us What is nighthawk you say? Well, it's a load generator Written in c++. It's um a sub project if you will of envoy There are um a few load generator. There are well, there's a lot of load generators out there There's a couple of others that are somewhat prominent in this ecosystem One is fortio and it's the load generator that was Is written in go it was sort of born of the istio project And then there's a number of other load generators There's been some recent focus and attention on nighthawk and Um, it is being its feature set is being expanded And we'll talk about that feature set but that feature set makes it it fairly interesting. I think to a number of parties including Um, some folks that Including engineers at various tech companies that we're all familiar with Um, also potentially including the the istio project that is both I can think sort of Is dipping a toe into the use of nighthawk, so So it's a project that's doing well Um, it Is um, not easy to get to though necessarily like there's a there's a build of nighthawk Um to in order to build nighthawk you've got to have Oh, you've got to have a copy of envoy and then use a lot of envoys toolchain use envoy in your toolchain so to speak to Compile and build and make a release of a nighthawk I think the the There's a single release of nighthawk today. It comes in a form of a container if I recall Honestly, like the the details aren't it's not a point of a lot of documentation. It's a good good project. I'm not I'm not Um, putting it down rather saying we think it's such a great project. We want to elevate it and assist it with some I'm distribution helping get a better distribution multi architecture support different os's different package managers to help get the project into other people's hands or users hands, uh, whomever Hence sort of the name get nighthawk. You can really kind of focus on letting people get nighthawk um, and Well, there's great, um When you say multiple architectures, do you mean also hardware architectures because I would assume that it's only it's 64 Uh, in terms of Yeah, I uh Architecture Arm 64 is getting some popularity lately. So maybe at some point that would be Kind of interesting. I know that it's building culture against the various power pc Etc etc. So I mean like the built infrastructure at least for embo is there Maybe that's something that can be of interest I'm having a little bit of a hard time hearing you but um, but you're you're mentioning things like hey potentially interesting things like power pc um I Yeah, I had a hard time with the rest. Um Uh, am I breaking it? Nope. It was just really low Oh, okay That's because I'm using so I was saying that embo already has the infrastructure to build for various architectures like power pc I'm not sure if they have meeps or whatever. I mean They already have arm 64 power pc And uh, if this project is close to the built infrastructure of embo I guess that something can be reused from their built infrastructure To also bring it to this other I don't know how how interested it Interesting it would be for someone to run it on other architectures, but at least arm 64 Probably would be of interest to Someone at some point definitely there's a rise in the interest to this architecture. So I guess that by the end of the year it would be you know Something much more powerful than what it is today It's a good point Nicola, I am I'm hopeful that The investment that envoy has had into those various architectures Helps in this effort I'm sorry, they also have windows builds. So, you know, if you want to get wild there It's no no one raised an eyebrow, but when you said power pc, but when you said windows then all right, hold on So Yeah, good. I'm ignorant on some of what some of what that is I do know that The there's been a community that's been trying to get a build of envoy for a few months I'm sorry a build of nighthawk for a few months and uh Like and on to a different to support a different os and it's been rather It's been really challenging. It's taken it's taken a few months to get there and so um you know So some of the goals of the project are yep, it's really you know about It's focused initially on of get nighthawk proper sort of on distribution of the project making it easier to get to what we were just talking about But part of the justification for why to spend the time to do that. Um is because it interrelates with Other initiatives in the service mesh working group um initiatives like service mesh performance um That specification if you want to specify how would it like the um the size and shape of Load that you would like to generate or a test that you would like to run Or the way in which you want to characterize your performance This specification is trying to help Provide a common format for doing so um And so helping bring nighthawk and that closer together is is sort of part of the thinking here nighthawk itself is Set to be support horizontal scaling or to say it differently Most of the load generators today if you wanted to run multiple instances of the load generators you would Need to wrap a bunch of scripting or a control or you know around it Nighthawk is trying to up level a bit of its intelligence to be cognizant of different instances of itself Uh So that that makes it more interesting It also has a little bit of a plug-in model around the use or the Around this thing that's referred to as the adaptive load controller Which is to say that nighthawk has the ability to run run a load run a test use some statistical analysis of Uh, the you know the characteristics of that test that the performance under that load and then Through this adaptive load controller, which you could plug in different algorithms or different Decision points that then nighthawk would automatically kick off another test and sort of and then Interpret you know generate some results interpret the results and then kick off another test and sort of in an adaptive way control the load so that you could You maybe run some optimization algorithms or try to answer questions about like hey, what's your what's the optimal load for this environment for this app So these two things are forthcoming in nighthawk and make it even more interesting Part of the justification for wrapping some support around it So yeah, so anyway, these are high level goals some other reasons are that hey, there's a service mesh patterns book that we've just talked about a little bit before with about 30 patterns going in there about service meshes in their use Some of that will be patterns on performance And so nighthawk will be referenced there to the extent that it is we want to make it easy to for people to repeat these patterns and get these patterns in their hands And so So the rest of this doc kind of kind of goes through Things that are being that we're looking to accomplish Meshery as a project that a service mesh specific project the focus is on performance That supports running nighthawk in a single instance today is part of the equation here about um Making it easy to get nighthawk into people's hands about making it easy to Run performance tests evaluate them run them again And to to take advantage of and expose some of those new capabilities that nighthawk is coming forth with There's a related project to this that might explain why There are certain things that are sort of identified as being out of scope um There's a related project. It's called it's it's actually very It's it's not very relevant. It's just a great example of a project called get on boy on boy itself is available in certain formats but um, there was a a similar initiative created to help build a cli get on boy to And different packages to help get on boy into people's hands And so I mentioned it just as a sort of a core or a parallel analogy to get nighthawk and the fact that The the group isn't looking to create a get nighthawk cli rather to capitalize on the Management that's already provided by meshery ctl This cli so so we would be enhancing this cli So um, so so there's a couple of mock-ups about how Nighthawk would be used within within meshery and some of that that More enhanced functionality would come to bear how that people would be empowered There are and then there's a collection of folks who are coming to bear so on Both the continuous integration work Rudolph Rudolph. Oh, that's sort of an eyeballing you if you can't if you don't feel that and There's some other contributors who've raised their hand to create a small website static website to help promote the project a bit more today if you want to learn about on boy You cruise on out to on boy proxy slash, you know nighthawk and It's unfortunate actually auto and jacob Both weren't able to make it today Both expressed regret But the maintainers of nighthawk have been great to collaborate with and to Bring in bring into this Part of what that website will facilitate is really like documentation for the project Today you can go to this page and and you get lots of details and It's nice if you want if you're looking for You know docs Well The only docs that you'll find are in the on boy project Go into the docs there if you do a search for nighthawk. I think you'll I think you'll find One one mention I believe What a best part and uh, so My point is um outside of just trying to build the bits and get the bits into people's hands It'll also really help facilitate documentation around the capabilities of the thing and and uh How it can be used Comments questions, uh So rid awful, um, I just called you out a moment ago This is probably the first time that you're really getting introduced to the project itself and to kind of what the purpose and why and why Clarifying questions. Um, I know there's a lot of A lot of things you've yet yet to be able to think about but just Does the the logic behind the justification kind of the logic behind why why we're spending time here? Some of the things that we're looking to do in scope To those make sense Do we already have a github repo for get nighthawk? Yeah, it's called. Um Right now it's called nighthawk go nighthawk hyphen go and that is Part, uh, I probably something I didn't explain as much I don't know if this is is as interesting but so nighthawk like envoy written in c++ um Well the lingua franca of the rest of the cloud native world Could be argued to be golang and so there's a little bit of a lack of like Part of what we're trying to achieve here is maybe bridging between the two um That's actually described in one of these line items Yeah Here and so It's a bit tentative like maybe there needs to be a different repo. Maybe there needs to be But right now the repo is nighthawk go. There's a link to in here somewhere this had been used to um Help bridge between golang in meshery and the ability to interact with an orchestrate nighthawk in c++ and And so right now this this When the domain is registered and when docs start to come forth the project site and things And maybe as we go to do Workflows and things I think right now the the thought is that it would go in there I see sorry I see five people is working on are working on That project but how many contributors Do you expect It's it's it's um a smaller project in nature Like um hidden no con no contributor is ever turned away Yeah, um Like in terms of the Scope of what the project is trying to achieve. There's kind of there's some big big blocks if you will there's Or the bigger blocks are a project site which Hmm, you could depending upon how pretty you want to make it look it it's You know, it's an it's a nominal to medium-sized piece of work there is Probably the bulk load of the work comes into I'm gonna go to the I'm gonna go here to sort of say like hey, there's a project site um a bulk load of the work goes into the CI and the building the the packaging of nighthawk into different containers into different package managers There is um, you know coordination on like a bunch of things to kind of define like What does it mean if you had nightly builds? How are we doing facilitating sort of integrate? How are we uplifting that project and doing maybe some integration tests with it between meshery and nighthawk Because that potentially there could be breakage between those two components Merd, I don't know if that like characterizes all of the All of the work to be done. Um, the five that you see there are I don't know that any of I don't know that I think there's only one of them that that you see there that's actually Um, committed and that individual his name is Pratye and he Pratye Banerjee he is An open source contributor and he's hot hot to trot on the project site. So he's he's kind of been putting effort into helping figure out Um, what to do here. He's an open source contributor that's helped he helped create the smp spec site He's a maintainer of that site. So he's Coming to bear here as well so Merd like, um Yeah, we'll take you know Take anyone who's who's interested I ask that question because because maybe we can make Or arrange some hecas one to code together Say that last part again workshop, maybe Yeah, and so it is the case that there are more people involved than a represented here. Um The this particular meeting time doesn't work for all of the participants that want to to assist Maybe some that will be mentors and New commerce like layer five channel Yeah Yeah, um Yep, we need to like this for this particular forum isn't the best and this has been my struggle Nikolai, I don't know if you've sort of watched me struggle over the last few months about like How deep to get into some of the service mesh working group? um projects here because I feel like we're commandeering sig networks time with it, but Uh each time that I've asked I've been told like hey Just continue to use this time up until There's some other topics and so Okay, cool But yeah, but so we need to do you know much more like In the weeds things about some of what um Nikolai was highlighting actually like hey Let's get more familiar with the build tool chain of envoy itself On the nighthawk as a project it doesn't have regular meetings to to sort of lean into and attend and so There are a couple of other Projects a few other people that I thought would be on today's call That are related to this Uh, they are sub. They're also other work streams of The service mesh working group topics like meshmark uh smp Yeah, so so mert I don't have this is like still it's kind of a struggle for me because we Like I've been I've I helped create uh and Nikolai might have been there as well, but like the cloud events Like as a project more or less born of the cncf I mean it was and it was kind of built within as a spec sort of Built within the server this working group so we had a precedent for creating things, you know what sort of Directly within the cncf rather than externally and bringing them to Um But I think I I think we would Do well to find probably a separate meeting from this to go through all the particulars of To advance smp to advance nighthawk part of like advancing on get nighthawk. It will help advance the service mesh performance Spec the service mesh performance spec is intended to be up for review under sandbox and so That would be another meeting to help advance this end Sorry, I asked that question the workshop or hecaton because uh c++ is building itself daily and so like 11 and 17 The standards so I don't know which standards you follow. I didn't read the source code source code and I guess it will be fine to secure to fix the the bugs within the source code with new c++ standards and the all projects code standards for instance That's a great question. Um, if auto or jacob were here the two, you know, a couple of the nighthawk maintainers They could speak to that more directly. Also if matt klein were here the one of the maintainers on Envoy he could speak to that. I I don't know Much of what we're trying to accomplish and get nighthawk is more packaging Docs and distribution Much more of that than it is Slinging a bunch of c++ So it's a bit. It's a bit. You know, the focus is about around continuous integration Docs integration with the other tools There is a desire to to write some adaptive load An adaptive load controllers. Those would be in c++. Those would go into nighthawk um auto I can introduce or um Mert I can introduce you to the folks who can answer that question Okay We we are taking down the notes Uh, they are not and They will read Yeah, if they will it's not effective I was thinking, um Because that this is going slightly off Of the boundaries that you you kind of draw here around all the interest to Get get nighthawk Yeah, but how how would this tool be useful in I don't know staging can even production environments If they're like, I don't know set a few cases or I don't know example Configuration, so I I don't know if could be could be something interesting for this project, but I mean because okay testing in a lab is great. Good. You get to know the nice charts and etc, but then um, you know Sometimes people are More more I would say facing challenges in the real world Which are kind of If I think I think it's a great question. Let me um, let me see if I can answer it with Something of an example. I think um very much so Very much so like integration into ci pipelines is something that it's in part why we're not That project is not trying to write a new get nighthawk cli because um Because there's already a significant investment in those use cases for meshry ctl to do So the the cli here meshry ctl perf To to run a performance test you could then Pass in your a lot of passing you here. Let me just do it like this Um, there's a cli here for Invoking either nighthawk wrk2 or 4to and you can pass in a bunch of flags or Pass in a file that file would be in the service mesh performance spec that that smp spec format and Where you're saying you're basically just saying I want to hit this endpoint for this long at this many threads So, you know, you're just you're giving it a profile for a test you want to run and then Exactly to your point nicolai that you would Service it's very much so the intention and desire for kuma or other service meshes or users to build that Meshry ctl perf into their ci system Either as a regression test or as a or as a whatever test But yeah to basically receive receive back the results with a yay or nay Because to your point like hey the yay or nay You don't necessarily need a human to look at a colored chart to determine what to do You know, you might just want to know hey, you know the baseline for our project either maybe the workload that we're the application we're creating or for the mesh that we're creating It looks it's been looking like this. It looks like this. We can describe that in a standard way using the service mesh performance We can Have some repeatable tooling that we can just build into the ci system to run that and then in accordance with the baseline that we have now You know Different projects like kuma can figure out if they're having regression issues or if they're advancing in performance We spent a lot of time with the istio performance and scalability team as a matter of fact That's where the early versions of service mesh performance at spec s and p. That's where it came from And so yeah, it was written to be in part to be that So nicola, I'm gonna just I'm gonna read into that and just And just assume that there's interest there for for you guys and anyway, um Yeah, anyway, I know I'm joking. But um, yeah, honestly, it was it's built to do exactly what you're just describing So with that and actually nicola, I just I think quickly to that point You know how we we've discussed the smi conformance project a bit to To run some some conformance tests The the same thing is true there as well that you would Uh be able to do The same program at run measuring ctl smi conformance tests Using measuring ctl or using the measures rest api either way in in the ci process You don't have to go run measuring a user doesn't have to go run measure. You can just programmatically invoke smi conformance tests and We're asking we're yet soliciting that each project does that The nginx service mesh folks sort of have been Pretty into it. Um, so is open service mesh and so at some point, hopefully they'll have that running in their ci system when they do the The conformance test results will be sent to a central location and those results published And so, yeah, I know I know um Um With your kuma hat on that There are any number of other priorities, but just as an fyi it Is intended to be run programmatically nice. Uh any other any other topics today? I offer some office for debium. I see debium twice I sampling Is it And derivatives or debium twice Uh, it's probably just a redundant taper Yeah, please. Yeah, it's probably yeah, go if you want to correct the doc, you know, please do Okay Then I will relate the second Uh debium and then it will be debium equal to centos centos And macOS macOS Nice Yeah All right, um gents anything further for today or are we Going to get 15 minutes back. Um, I was just checking just I was just checking, uh About the new to see members Who is the networking person there? I mean, is there any? Except for matt, of course Right. Yeah, um, I guess I didn't I think with Dave we were co-chairs for the service mesh tracks of Dave from That's a great question. Nicola. Yeah, I didn't realize that, um, uh, that there might be an impact. I didn't consider So so matt is the liaise for the to see to signal work Do you know is his term coming due or? I'm I'm looking at the like, uh these cups cncf slash Yes, it's actually january 20 Oh, okay. Yeah, it's a good. I don't know Oh So yeah, what about there's some elections going on or something? Yeah, yeah, there are what I gotta tell you. I'm sick of, um, thinking about elections too here in the us Uh, I once actually are about to come You you you'll get yours it's coming Yeah Oh, man, okay. Yeah, very nice to see you guys. Um, thanks a couple of weeks Have a great Everyone. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, you too. Bye