 The Nigerian judiciary proposes an all-time high-spending estimate of $120 billion now for 2022, and the breakdown has not been shared with the public. In government, a serial refire of Kaduna state pre-sist, the National Assembly for Regents, the federal government, has declared bandits operating as terrorists. This is plus politics, and I am Justin, a Kaduna. The Nigerian judiciary has proposed an all-time high-spending estimate of $120 billion now for 2022. However, the breakdown of the proposed budget is heathen from the public, a development that weakens the credibility of the arm of government expected to set high standards of transparency and accountability. The proposed sum represents about a 9% increase from the 110 billionaire that has remained the judiciary's total vote for three consecutive years, that is from 2019 to 2021. For several years, successive chief justices of Nigeria have lamented the poor funding of the judiciary. If this amount is approved, the judiciary's budget would have only increased by 15 billionaire from what it was in 12 years ago in 2010. Joining us to discuss this is economist Gaspolo Belli and Nnamane Kenichuku, and of course we will join by Chris Itamunola, a legal practitioner shortly on the show. We'll start from our economist and of course some Kenichuku. Good evening to you gentlemen. Many thanks for joining us on Plus Politics on Plus TV Africa. Thank you very much. Alright, from my intro, I said that Nigerian judiciary has proposed an all-time high-spending estimate of $120 billion now for 2022, but over the past three years it had a steady beat at 110 billionaire. But the question right now is shrouding everything in secrecy because a journalist has not been allowed in when they do their defense at the National Assembly. But let's just start with you Nnamane Kenichuku, looking at what the judiciary has in budgeted over the years, and right now it is increasing it to 120-10 after three years without any explanation as to what and what have increased over the years. What does that tell you? To be honest, it speaks of the corruption probably in the judiciary system at the moment. I think for anything that has to do with the judiciary, we, the people, the taxpayers, we should be carried along. And the fact that they try to, you know, cover it up or probably have these conversations behind closed doors, shows that there should be something we should be worried about. In the first place, the quality of what they are doing is very important to us, and we need to make sure we have a way of tracking what the judiciary are doing. It's just like having our lawmakers over at the National Assembly who don't know what they are doing. So how are they representing us right? So I think it's something that we have to look into once more, and it's something that we, the taxpayers, deserve to know. What is this money used for? Because right about now in Nigeria, the quality of service for the judicial system is very low. The service delivery is extremely low. The timely delivery of service is also extremely low. So at this point, I mean, it makes no sense for us to be in the dark with our budgets. All right, Gospel, let us talk to your rights now. I mean, calls for more allocations to the judiciary has not been complemented with an attitude of financial transparency and property many have said. In your opinion, do you really think that the judiciary is actually going the right way in terms of doing internationally best practice? Yeah, all right. Thank you for having me. Good evening once again. Yeah, it's called for a very large extent. I mean, I've said several times on the post-politics program that for the Nigerian context, we've seen the case of all the term as extractive institutions in the sense meaning that institutions designed to further empower the status quo and all that. So a lot of times one of the key attributes of the strike institutions is that they lack transparency in their dealings, number one. Number two, many cases is not really an argument on the funding. It's an argument of the level of poor use of finance and lack of capacity internally to make the most of resources made available in as much as yes, they may need more money for other things. So yes, it bothers heavily on the dynamics of how extractive institutions work. And to a large extent, not as a judiciary. We'll find situations where even across other sectors and other arms of government, there is a high level secrecy around this particular 202 budget. And don't forget it's the budget that informs economic activities in the pre-election year. So it's already given us inclinations into what you expect in 2022. I don't know about that. So it's a big cause to worry. All right, let's go back to Kinect. So I'm still a bit worried about all the proposals. And of course, the judiciary is precisely... Most times we are not actually told about the allowances of state judges and most times when requests are made to that particular arm of government in line with the FOI actor, most times journalists are not really given a good response. So just what do we need to do? Can we just keep our arms forward and just watch the judiciary just do whatever they decide to do? I mean, it's pretty much obvious the reason why there's so much high level secrecy in whatever they're doing, either by knowing the allowances or whatever, because if we look at what they're asking for or what they're getting in their location of 110 to 120 billion as of this particular budget, we realize that the quality of service being rendered in Nigeria does not... I mean, we can't prove that the judiciary deserve that amount of money. So I think we still need to keep pushing, especially when we look at the quality of services they are rendering to Nigerians. I'll give an example. I've not seen any serious sort of digitalization in the judiciary system, and that is an important factor that we need to put into consideration if we need to drive or whatever, show some transparency in whatever they are doing. So if these funds are actually used right, I think there shouldn't be any need for them to have anything secretly in whatever they're doing. It should be an open book for us to come or journalists to look into whatever they're doing and tell Nigerians, you know what, this is what we are using your money to do and then it's driving the economy or whatever, or it's growing the judiciary system and taking it to the place where it's meant to be. All right, Gus, but let me just reel out some figures here from statistics that I have made available by premium times. They detailed it quite sourcingly. In 2010, $95 billion was budgeted. In 2011, it was $85 billion. In 2012, it reduced to $73 billion. Then in 2013, it was at $67 billion. In 2014, it increased yet again to $68 billion. In 2015, the amount increased to $79 billion. In 2016, it reduced to $70 billion. Then in 2017, it leapt to $100 billion from $70 billion in the previous year. Then it stayed the same for 2018. In 2019, 2010 and 2011, it was at $110 billion. For next year, they are budgeting $120 billion there. Looking at all the trends, looking at all the inflationary rates and everything that we have in the country, would you say that an increase of $10 billion is actually justifiable? The budget is still at the proposal phase. What would see to a very large extent is that at the point of approval, it's a slightly higher budget size in the sense. Over time from past years, we've seen that. But then it can just latch a bit on what Mr. Ikechiko said as well, that there are big concerns currently in the oppressions and engagement of the judiciary system. I do not think that globally, the Nigerian judiciary system has grown to become a strong force in the scheme of things in terms of global judiciary measures and metrics and all that. First and foremost, for instance, you can see how long it takes to solve cases. You can see how long it takes. There are concerns around how you... If there are digitalizing information and made available and all that, how is it easy for people to access cases, access case files, and interact with the system as a whole? You talked about the efficiency and effectiveness. So if you look at the World Bank eats of dream business rankings, sorry, metrics, you find that a few judiciary or legal-focused concerns there as well. Nigeria has performed worse for that case. So if you look at the results that have been gotten from the past budgets and past funding in the judiciary sector, it has been counterproductive in the sense. And technically, the clamor is just for... The clamor is around what are these monies being used for and can there be an open implementation report around them and how is the judiciary system growing enough to make a case for more monies in your conference? So being the fact that we don't have that in view, it calls for concern why the institution should be asking for much more monies. And to a large extent, we are going to see the same pattern in the legislative and executive arm as well. And that's to say to a large... In the sense that there is a gross public leadership issue and the concern around checks and balances should not only be from the view of separation of power only, it should also cut across implementation of budget financing and all of that, looking at it from an injunct context in the midst of a short long term. Thank you, gospel. Now, kinetrical, let's talk about some reforms that have actually gone through the Nigeria's judiciary over time. They have been reforms and more reforms. But then again, with this increase in budgets to 120 billion in next year, would we see better quotes working? Would we get to a situation where we can actually go to court and maybe in a month and over time, you know, get some judgment and of course, get justice as a threat? Because over time we have had cases have lingered on for years. But with all the reforms that have gone through the nation's judiciary, do you really see any change happening anytime soon? To be honest, Jay, I still can't, you know, see any evidence of the reforms you're actually talking about currently. I would use a country like Rwanda as a case study in this particular conversation. Rwanda has grown the judiciary system from the point where you can actually get judgments in maximum six months and how was this achieved? It was using technology. It's very simple. If you check the average number of people that are working to court today, it's just for them to file, you know, court reports or whatever. People go in to get affidavits. You know, there are common things that digitally you can drive in this particular, you know, global economy, whatever, you know, ICT kind of standards that we have all around the world currently that we're not practicing. So how do you expect to see that reform? Nigeria at the moment, if we're talking about giving the judiciary 120 billion for this particular budget, I think what we should be looking at to get from them is to hear that they want to have a total overhaul of our judiciary system. That is what we want from them. The total overhaul and every particular part of this judiciary system should undergo a particular training. Who is monitoring this before? Is there any particular team monitoring whatever they're spending? How do we make sure we get the best out of them? Now, how is the judiciary system also connected to other aspects of the government? For example, we don't have a very functional forensic system. So there are different things that we need to look at if we want the judiciary system to work well. I mean, trust me, judiciary, they can actually come up and say they want 200 billion. But if we see a proper reform and know that this money is needed to drive the success of our system, it's very, very important that we give it to them because the judiciary system plays an important role in our politics, in our elections, in different aspects of the country, of our economy as well. So the money is not the problem. Giving them the money is not the problem. But how do you use the money is the major problem. Now, are you talking about a total reform or are you talking about money to continue whatever you were doing before now? That is the question that I don't know the answer to. And if they are willing to get an answer to that, that means they should be able to leave whatever they are doing open for us to see. For us to also advise. I mean, they probably don't have a technical know-how. There are people over out here in Nigeria that know how to go about this open. There are brilliant lawyers. There are people like my colleague here, as he spoke earlier, that can advise and say, okay, this is how you can drive this reform and this is how you can achieve a proper result in the system. All right, Gospel, back to you right now. There has been several analysis concerning the budgeting process and of course what the judiciary takes at each year and of course that of the legislature. And premium times, once again, did some sort of comparison between the judiciary and that of the National Assembly. Some people have actually opined that maybe the judiciary is trying to keep up with the Joneses or maybe they are trying to sort of get some sort of priority. But let me just reel out some figures right now. In 2010, the judiciary got 95 billion while the legislature got 154 billion. In 2011, 85 billion went to the judiciary while 154, that's the same amount for last year for the legislature. Then in 2012, that of the judiciary reduced to 75 billion and of course that of the legislature staying at 154. Back to 2021, the judiciary budget was 110 billion, that of the legislature was 134 or is 134. For next year, we are looking at having 120 for the judiciary while the legislature will got as much as 134 billion Naira. If the legislature is getting that much of 134, do you think that the judiciary may have some sort of maybe justification to be asking for 10 billion Naira more for next year, gospel? So I spoke a little bit around the justification for or against increasing budgetary allocations in a sense. I don't think that's the core argument that should drive our development of current aspirations now. A significant increase in budgetary allocations does not mean the reforms will be done, the reform work will be done and does not necessarily mean that activities or programs or initiatives in that space will be implemented. We need to get a point where even before the budgets are rolled out of per year, the president comes out to declare or sort of sell the vision around what the policy direction is and where critical sectors and all of that institutions need funding to scale. We don't have that in view or we have this large extent of fiscal strategy paper that, in my own opinion, just tells a little jargon and it points out to nothing significant in terms of improving the life of a common man. So I don't think the argument should be on increasing budgets. The same argument in the educational sector. United Nations standard will say 26%, budgetary allocations should go to education and interest currently at 6% to 8%. So they are clamor for increasing budgetary allocations in the educational sector as well. And as much as it makes sense to, the fundamentals around how the sector works and delivers value in terms of public leadership and governance, is not in place. So what exactly are you increasing allocations for? Yes, in some cases, that argument will fly, but if you look at it from the core reform needs that the country needs right now, I don't think it should be a problem. But if you dive into it, you realize that 80% of those monies are going to recurrent expenditure. So how much of those monies are going to the core reform process that needs to be done? And how much of the reform process are plugged into the mainstream and productive sectors of the economy? Those are the big questions we need to ask. There are legal frameworks and institutional frameworks for the judiciary sector that should be developed into power that in view. So my own argument would be around a power play of the numbers, should be a power play of reforms. To look at budget implementation reports and then let's ask ourselves, what is the ratio of how many bills we're finding to law and how many in quotes enablers have the judiciary or the three arms of government in total burden to the four for economic agents to scale on. There are bigger questions in the room about budget allocations. And I don't think Nigeria will ever understand or get the argument right because our motives are biased and very nuanced towards lower wage. Let me stay with you for one more minute and talk about the nation's budgeting processes. Each year the federal government, the president comes out and proposes some amounts that they expect to pay or spend and maybe revenues for next year and over time the MBAs will come to the legislature to present them what they have plans to do. But if you were to analyze the nation's budgeting process would you say that we are actually walking in the right direction? I don't really think so. The only argument a lot of people will want to bring to the fore is the fact that the budget now runs from January to December. In my own opinion that's a flimsy argument or something that should be normal in the same decline. The argument should be around the budget structure or the financing structure and how budget is used as a policy instrument into mainstream developing financing for increased returns and addressments. Right now we don't even understand what the policy direction of the government is when it comes to 2020 and all of that. That's one. Secondly a lot of these budgetary items are copy and paste items with all due respect. You also have an angle where there is an increasing current expenditure side there is also a slightly decreasing capital expenditure side in the real terms of things and I said real terms because what you term as capital expenditure a lot of times and what you term as a current expenditure in the Nigerian budget structure is a bit conflicted. So we should go back to the drawing board and what belongs to where. And then you want to talk about financing the budget and how the budget is being implemented. A lot of MDAs are literally there's a quote that says that 18 is as strong as its weakest link. A lot of MDAs are the weakest link when it comes to budget users as a policy instrument to drive developmental causes. It's just literally like trying to stretch water in the back steps. MDAs need to function at a level where these money can be used as for the real reasons why they're being used for and to a large extent for capital expenditure reasons. If you also look at the implementation reports of past budgets you see that we've reached close to 80% implementation success of the current expenditure and to a large extent we're still struggling with our 40 to 25% of capital expenditure implementation. It tells you that our motives are not right it tells you that from a structural angle the budgetary process and the use of budget as a policy instrument to drive developmental causes is still not properly done in the sense of things and that's why we still keep coming back to the conversation but also the state that the Nigerian budget is still small in terms of the developmental aspirations of the people. Alright, we're just being joined by legal practitioner Chris Itamunola. Many thanks for joining us on Plus Politics. Very quickly let us get to your comment on this particular that the Nigeria's judiciary is proposing an all-time high spending estimate of 120 billion there are made secrecy when it comes to presentation what is your take? Mr. Chris, can you hear us? Alright, let's try and still talk to Kenechiko. Kenechiko, let's get your final take on all of this. I just spoke with Gospel and he is not impressed with the nations and budget and processes. Exactly, should we be doing to ensure that we get it right as a nation in terms of budget, proposals, implementation and of course presentation? I think the whole process needs to be rechecked especially from how it all starts to how it's been presented by the president to the house. I'm a very familiar leader of going to look at people that have been all figured out on the study how they do it and their combat gear. The only problem we have as a nation is the fact that we actually have white people who can actually help with these reforms to make sure that we get it right but then they're never in the picture. You realize that when these kind of people want to come into the system to make sure that they help with the reform you realize that these key positions I give to people are some sort of honorary positions for helping during maybe times of election or helping during times of whatever but if you look at it in the right direction you realize that we have capable people that can help with advising on how this our budgets can be done right and that is 100% by understanding understanding countries and other people that are actually getting right at the moment. Then when it comes to the judiciary and their own budgeting like I said earlier I 100% subscribe to the judiciary focusing on reform at the moment because reform is going to bring about that particular productivity that we are all talking about we need to see results I'm not saying that they should be secret about it or whatever the budget is or whatever they have going on there in the judiciary but the only way we can know that something is happening is by seeing results and the only way we can see the results is by having a total reform and how can we have this total reform that the judiciary plugs into all other aspects of governance make sure there is a very very seamless transmission of data communication between all aspects of governance to make sure that the people are in the know of what is going on in the government I'll give an example in some other developed countries there are case management systems that are deployed to make sure that they manage cases and make sure these cases are monitored I'm not sure what we do, I'm not seeing anyone so how are we able to measure the level of progress we are actually getting as a country I mean it's difficult if we can't work with data if we can't manage it with technology then there's no hope so I think I agree with gospel and I think that we need to make sure that these funds are being channeled to the right direction the current expenditure for any type of government is always a failure it makes no sense there's no way to move a country forward with almost 80% the current expenditure it makes no sense because you need to keep building you need to keep reforming and for you to reform you have to also depend on the capital expenditures that you're going to bring out for any particular arm of government all of them thank you gentlemen for sharing your thoughts on this particular issue we do appreciate it we must say a very big thank you to the CEO of the AS group that is Kenechiko Nnamani and of course gospel Obele economist who joined us from Abuja and of course Lagos respectively we do appreciate your time and all the imputes that you have made on the show this evening we'll take a short break now to view the highlight of this week's shows and when we return I'll be giving you my take