 What's up, everybody? I'm the hook and I'm the blade and welcome to the Luckmake podcast a show about all things making your own luck I'm your host Lawson joined as always by your host Tim and this week we're talking about everybody's favorite lucky charms mascot Shea Patrick Cormack and his game Assassin's Creed rogue How have you been this week has your week been if you had a good week dude, I just want to know about your week well, I Gotta say something something really good did happen And I've kind of been riding on the high of it for a while now my favorite cereal is honey smacks honey smacks Yeah, I've never heard of that. It's got it's got like a DJ frog as the mascot dude I love frogs and DJ so sounds right up my alley so yeah, so honey smacks my favorite cereal and I had gotten the banana nut cheerios just to try and I was so Disappointed by those that I had to get some honey smacks, you know to counteract the badness in my mouth So I was at Publix and the only honey smacks that they had was the family size I don't need it. I don't need a six dollar box cereal. I just want the regular size They didn't have the regular size and so I look over and I see that they have a buy one get one for Post cereal and they have golden crisp, which is just like, you know other other alternative universe honey smacks And they have honey comb So I was able to get two boxes of cereal for the less than the family size box of The honey smacks but also less than the or pretty much the same price as the regular sized cereal So I've been really happy about that and the fact that I got two different boxes of cereal like two different action Two different kinds of cereal. It's it's just really nice. That sounds like you've had a great week I can have a I can have a bowl of golden crisp and then I can have a bowl of honey comb I can switch it up, you know, I'm really happy for you honey smacks is is the Definitive though if no one has had it go try it if you have had it Then you could probably relate to my love of it, right? Say it in the comments Let us know in the comments what you think about honey smacks couple notes at the top of the show for you guys Valhalla's post launch content trailer is out Talked about a couple new DLC expansions that we're gonna see on the game after it releases The funniest thing about it to me is that fun fact the watch dogs Legion post launch content trailer Actually has more Assassin's Creed in it than the post launch trailer for a C Valhalla. Yeah, that's actually really great observation Something it's just they're really there literally are more Assassin's Creed content in that watch dogs trailer is that we won't get too deep into it because we spent all last week talking about Valhalla stuff But yeah, you know Ireland in France should be fine should be absolutely fine No mythology based DLC, but there's also no like hidden ones based DLC either so It is a fortune that like Paris is popping up and and and we've already gotten a very Amazing medieval Paris and in those yeah, and unity and this one's gonna suck, but it's fine Yeah Yeah with this movement system with this parkour I don't we say it all the time, you know like we've said it a billion times But it's just really pathetic that it's like is there a hidden ones DLC Is there a hidden ones expansion like when the hidden ones are the focus of the fucking main game, right? Like I don't know. It's just yeah tired of saying it, but it's gotta be said, right? I Also, I also want to acknowledge one comment that we received on last week's episode All right, because this is something I do want to point out because I think it's really interesting. Let's do it Commenter Josh a Pointed out to us. Yes that There is actually an explanation for what exactly is being said When we noticed that Darby and Stanislav had both tweeted right you'll what you'll regret your words and deeds and mentioning like the breathing skin shit, right like well, yeah, apparently It's a reference to something that Kojima said about quiet in a Metal Gear Solid. Yeah, which like I should have known I should have known that I know I feel like we would have known that but we didn't because I Guess it's just it's been so long since I played Metal Gear Solid 5 But yeah, totally she breathes through her skin, but she also happens to be super hot So she gets to dress down and to base them like like a bikini pretty much and it's okay You know it's it's all because everyone's like this is not tactical clothing whatsoever and is pretty gross sexualization of you know female character and Kojima's like no no no trust me There's a really good reason for it Right, but it's like that almost illustrates better than anything else how when you work backwards from the end results to come up with The reason why that end result exists, right? The odds of that reason being anything other than a very transparent justification for the end result is pretty pretty slim It's like saying because I think no one is taking seriously the explanation that quiet breathes through her fucking skin as It was a good reason to have her be that overly sexualized Yeah, because she could just be breathing through her skin and Have like an outfit that like shows her tummy, but no like you can see her cleavage right in your nose It's like to for this character. She's actually allergic to clothes It's it's like saying that a female character can only see through her nipples And she has to have them exposed to see you don't want her not to see right Would you rather her would you rather her cover up her titties so that's blinded to the world you sexist pig Anyway Yeah, it's just it's it's kind of ridiculous I really wonder I I've said before that like the standard I'm holding this whole gender You know option let the end must decide thing too is like will it will it give me a story or a mystery that's better than You know if there just wasn't that element at all now the standard I'm holding it to is a better explanation than she breathes through her skin. That's fair. That's not I'm if it's not I'm quitting the podcast And Nick bearish will take over He'll take over for both of us actually He'll be the hook played He just he record he records one perspective. Yeah, he responds in himself With another I would listen to that absolutely no no doubt So why don't talk about Assassin's Creed rogue dude? Yeah, that's let's do it You've never played it before this is your first time your your rogue cherry has been popped It got eclipsed for me by Unity because I had just gotten my Xbox one at the time and I was like, let's let's just do unity dog Like I knew I saw no sense in playing rogue, so but yes, this is my first time and I Have some things to say about it What's your like headline impressions like if you were to sum it up in a sentence? Well, I mean This isn't as far as in a very succinct sentence, but it moved up to number three on my list number three Yeah, you it passed black flag thousand and ten percent No, don't do this Is wait, so it's black flag number four well I I figure that the switching around like probably black flag is above Yes, it's above brotherhood in AC one, so I've got it at number four probably But how in what universe is rogue better than black flag? Well, that's what we're gonna talk about right? It's the same Oh my god The most infuriating person I can't believe this shit you okay. All right even look Accepting your one complaint Invalid though it may be with the ending of AC four you're not about to tell me that rogue has a better story right straight up No, it no it honestly probably doesn't have a better story than like brotherhood. It's a very bad story We can at least agree on that. No, we definitely agree on that. That's the thing So they give you a puckle gun instead of and you're like better game They give you an ice ram and you're like better They put snow in it and that's that was all you needed Well, I have some pretty extensive notes and I think it I think it encapsulates all my issues with the game But also why I think it's better than black flag I have to know that's that's where we're starting because I have to know why you would think it's better than black flag Well, I mean I guess I don't have like any one reason, you know Like I have I have some things that I really loved So I could maybe just go from there right like yeah I'm saying start with those notes because I want you to I want you to convince me. All right. Well, so for the start I want to I guess I'll I guess I'll talk about Lisbon. Okay. Oh Lisbon works so well because it puts you in the selfish position I was escaping Lisbon and leaving the 30,000 people to die you have and it's because of your actions You can't stop and save anyone like in you know other missions, right? Where shit like that's going down there might be a little optional objective to save people AC3 had it Revelations had it, but there's no option to do that at all And you can't even stop long enough to look at things you can't even like properly take in All of the destruction because you have to get the fuck out. That's the thing is like you will also die You know and so I think it works better than the Cappadocia escape and that's not a high bar But it's also interestingly enough the complete inverse of the Monterey Gianni attack because in Cappadocia Ezio like to selfishly is like fuck it. I'm gonna blow it up and he doesn't care about, you know And if any citizens die or whatever all he cares about is getting to men. Well and in the Monterey Gianni attack all of it is Pretty reactionary like you can say that it's it's Ezio's fault because of the events of AC2 But the game doesn't really want you to say that So pretty much everyone that dies in that moment is is as a result of Cesare, not you So you're pretty much detached from the fault. There's nothing that Ezio could have done to Stop cannons from firing, you know and knocking down the city But back to Shea he inadvertently Doomed this city, but he's also the only person probably there that has the ability to escape the destruction He's a trained assassin. He's able to maneuver through destruction and with a little bit of luck He gets out, right? So you are dooming all these people to a faith. Hey, hey, hey. Hey. Oh fuck Watch your mouth. He makes his own luck He makes his own luck Right. Well with a little bit of luck that he made himself So that's a thing I just think it's as beautiful like it perfectly puts you in the mindset of like his guilt But also his anger because while you can't say that he knowingly put these people in danger It was his actions that that that set that emotion and he's also like the only person who was able to escape it So he caused it, but also he alone is pretty much the sole survivor of it You know and it's I was like this is like I just felt like wow I am so ready to get out of here, you know But and I'm not even like thinking to myself like what about all these people that I'm just leaving to die Because I have no other choice I would agree with your sentiment if it weren't for the fact that I feel like Lisbon the the earthquake it underwhelms as a story beat purely on the basis that I as a player am not at any point made to care about Lisbon, I'm not spending any time there. It doesn't Emotionally affect me because but that's why it where you know It's just another city. I don't think that's why it works I think it's like it's like when they blow up Alderaan in Star Wars and You know, we see that Princess Leia is bummed out, but we're not bummed out However, if we'd actually been to that planet or had a reason to care about its existence It might have been more emotionally effective on that level Right I feel like the Lisbon thing is aiming for that level of emotional effectiveness But it doesn't pull it off because it's not a city that we're really meant to care about I don't think the intention is because let's say if you spent like a sequence in Lisbon, right? Like there's something Like on shows like in The Walking Dead or shows like that that have like really abrupt character deaths and all of a sudden That character is getting a lot of lines all of a sudden, you know something something's bad about something bad is about to happen So I think it adds to the shock shock value of it because if you if you think about it The fact that okay Shay is gonna go get this piece of Eden He knows exactly where it is everything's going well He unlocks it bam and then tragedy strikes And I think if if we hadn't of known about the Lisbon earthquake through trailers and whatnot It would have been a little more effective because I I did know it was coming obviously, right? I just don't think that the objective is is like oh Care about this city. It's just like the destruction still felt real enough even though I'd never been the Lisbon before because I don't think that's what matters I think it just matters that Shay caused this destruction And I think kind of being detached from it just a little bit like not having been to Lisbon I think that the attachment actually kind of helps with the tone of the scene because You can't stop in like be like oh no the building that I loved You know or whatever like you you just yeah have to escape and and I and I think I don't know I just it works for me. I guess it does at the very least It does accomplish the job of giving Shay a Reason to want to leave the assassins, but my story issues with that whole beat are You know don't have much to do with Lisbon to be honest So it is pretty much the only like story element that I love right so I think got you besides that There's just a lot of gameplay elements that put it above black flag for me But definitely when it comes to Lisbon, I think it works really well And I definitely see your point the reason why we are still talking about at CEO's family not the song but his actual family to this day is because they gave us time to Connect with them and then that loss is is all the more tragic But I do think there's something to be said for this abrupt This abrupt destruction that you maybe don't have so much attach attachment to But I think it does put you in the headspace of like well fuck this I need to get out of here I think your criticism is completely accurate. I guess it just didn't it didn't ruin it for me, you know, that's fair It is an effective set piece. I do enjoy playing it because it's cool looking and it's fun and it's exciting But I can't help but feel like if there was even a character with him that That died in the earthquake or something that at least I would then care. I understand why Shay cares I don't need to be convinced for instance that Shay cares about the earthquake and his destruction because you know people aren't sociopaths they are going to feel emotions if they're directly involved with a catastrophe that kills, you know, many many people it's just the standards for for compassion are higher in storytelling because you can't just show a person dying on a movie or game or TV show and Expect me to feel an emotion as a result There's all this legwork that storytellers have to do to get the audience invested in people in places and things in Order for us to actually feel something when when something happens to them I do think that the the sequence could have been more effective in all of its goals Had there been more emotional attachment to Lisbon But I see your point that as far as the goals of the story are concerned You can pretty much make the argument that it doesn't matter to the game whether we are emotionally affected by it All we really need is a reason for Shay to want to leave the assassins and it does Accomplished that yeah, so what are some of the like gameplay things that really got your dick hard for this game that put it above black flag well Pretty much I think I Imagine I think it's designed in a way to to make you do this But and one like one of the first parts where you could actually free roam you end up in front of this little like lighthouse and You get off and so me I got off because there was an animus fragment there And I was still fooling myself thinking I was gonna get all of them So I climb off my boat I get onto this lighthouse I come up the top I get to the animus fragment and I get down to get back onto my boat And I look off and there's just this beautiful like just orange tinted sky And I see all the snowy mountains and just this beautiful landscape And and that really solidified to me like it made me feel like I was like playing AC2 again Where I just could see this like really beautiful landscape And I want to like go explore and go further into it and just the atmosphere and the vibe of this game I so much prefer over the West Indies and whatnot and and while that is very effective at doing that it's just as a setting I so much prefer the North Atlantic and the River Valley and the colonial stuff that that that pops up in there I think it does more with that stuff better way more than AC3 could have done too I think I guess on as a purely subjective thing I completely disagree with you like I find The AC4 West Indies like tropical vibe and like the sandy areas and the really bright blue water ocean reflections and and you know the lush green environments like I found all of that a lot I had that that moment you describe of like feeling awe as you look at a landscape I had that all the time in AC4 I just didn't have that in Rogue because I am not particularly invested in the whole colonial time period as a setting and honestly the you know the sort of last-gen graphics of the game I felt like got in the way compared to playing AC4 on a PC or playing it on next-gen so but that's that's like a purely taste subjective thing it's just what setting appeals to you more so I can understand why that works for you and why it doesn't work for me I also think that there is okay so it has very like intricate and in-depth exploration into it so I felt like with Black Flag obviously the main allure is the piracy and that's also where a lot of your economy comes from you get a lot of your you get most of your goods from doing that and the reason for exploring other things is sometimes for the collectibles and treasure and whatnot but I felt like Rogue incentivized for me at least more reason to get off of my boat and I can't quite put my finger on what that is the collectibles are not that worthwhile so it's not really even the collectibles I definitely like was going after like some cave paintings and stuff and but one experience I had is I got onto a location I got off my boat I found the collectible it's a ship Tim sorry sorry sorry you're right a boat can fit on a ship but a ship can't fit on a boat so I got off my ship and I went to go get this collectible and then there's the like little frontier skirmishes that you can fall into and I saw there's a supply camp up here so I went to the supply camp and then I realized that oh there's another supply camp over here and eventually before I knew it I had traversed through four different locations without getting back onto my ship I was able to go to these two locations on this piece of land which are which are two different like fast travel points entirely I was able to cross the river with with with that new mechanic and then I was able to go to like two different other locations in this forest and an hour went by until I realized wow I haven't been back on the morgan in in a while there are two things that I really appreciate about rogue that you've that you've hit on here one is that the land-based gameplay does give you a lot more to do than in black flag because the cities are much larger and densely populated and there's just more fun classic ac land-based gameplay in rogue than in black flag and I also think that when you talk about the collectibles and you're kind of hitting on the sort of way that locations are designed in this game and the level design of them and the experience of rogue presents for me probably in the series the most fun experience I've ever had just collecting everything most of the assassin's creed games at some point or another I've gone through and just collected everything hundred percent of the game and with rogue I had the most fun doing that so there's definitely something to be said for that well and that's the thing too is I kind of got lost in the exploration not because that's the thing right as I wasn't like wow I can't wait to get this next cave painting I was just really into the the ability that I felt like I got completely lost in this little area and the little frontier skirmishes and the little like you know saving hostages and and and like the random like settlements that you would come by and stuff it all kept me on my toes and here's something I found is probably at like the 40 minute mark of this exploration little trip I did I found there was like a French settlement nearby that I had to take over for the British and there was a little group of guards like securing the perimeter I took them out and I realized I'm kind of low on on ammo so I looted their bodies and then I successfully took the settlement if you make me actually loot a body out of necessity and assassin's creed game you're doing something right right like it completely satisfied that fantasy of me where I'm like going through this area and this wilderness and killing people and and fucking taking over a shit for the British and it was like I just I was sort of surprised at myself because I had never looted ammo off of a off of a body this much before you know and and so I was it because I knew I was under equipped to go take out this settlement so I needed more ammunition and so I've definitely had to do it a bunch in ac3 and ac4 so I can't say I have the same experience well I had to do it a lot I had to do it in ac4 too because you know you get more darts and stuff but I did it more in this game I and but also I didn't want to break the fantasy and fast travel away I wanted to keep like I wanted to stay where I was and get somewhere and and kind of conquer it and then get back to my ship so and and this kind of gets into a complaint right is like why the fuck am I as Shay Cormac deciphering cave paintings and collecting Viking swords all of the collectibles are not based there's no connection to the character so on the one hand it's beautiful and amazing and it's endless amounts of fun but on the other hand why the fuck am I doing it you know it's like it's like we talk about with our known the murder mysteries why you know yeah what's the why why is he solving mysteries I think you're hitting on something that because I haven't really said like what my one sentence headline impression of rogue would be and it really it's just that it's a total mixed bag because while it has the probably best gameplay experience in the Kenway trilogy it definitely has a very very bad story and I have a lot of complaints about that story that I'm sure I will get a chance to get more thoroughly into in this episode you know if this had had a phenomenal story and it really was just super emotionally effective and and you know deep characterization and well thought out like I could see it being better than black flag for me but black flag story is still the best story in my opinion in the entire franchise so rogue being as fairly dog shit as it is by comparison can't really hold a candle and there's a lot of like AC3 tier bad writing in this game and I think probably what it speaks to more than anything else are disagreement on this on this game is going to be that like story for me is the most important part it is the thing I care about the most you can give me a game like origins with pretty interesting well thought out and well developed gameplay and give it the story that origins has and it's going to go at the bottom of my list straight up right but I'm sensing that that may not quite be the case for you I don't know because part of me like I don't know because I do feel like the reason my revelations because it has such great gameplay but it's my it's my favorite is because the story has stuck with me throughout you know the the the nine years since I've played it right and revelations in rogue are really interesting to compare because they're both sort of the conclusion of their respective trilogies and revelations achieves what it achieves in my opinion as it's you know I think it's the number three game on my list right so you know pretty similar there the way that revelations achieves what it achieves is it does have the best gameplay in the etio trilogy it also has a great story you know right and I give ac2 the second place spot because I find that it edges out on story well that one that's why it definitely like is my number two ac2 because it it edges out it doesn't even edge out it demolishes a rogue in story and but I also think it's better than black flag in story but so does black flag but but black flag story didn't knock my socks off like it does you so that's why it's not my number three anymore so yeah which I think is just because you're a contrarian prick but go on I can't say that black flag is a bad story but did it do any did it do any more for me than rogue story not really so at the end of the day but you got to at least you got to at least admit even if like even if the ending underwhelms you on an on an emotional level you at least can tell and I know you are you have a sense for story that you're not like you can at least tell structurally and and on a level of character arcs that that black flag is no I I know yes for sure but I feel like black flag was my number three not because of its objectively good story qualities but because of the gameplay like there are things that are objectively good story qualities in ac1 but the gameplay kind of irritates me at parts that's why it's down I think right at number six yeah I think six because it's I I have some things that moved around obviously but um we got it we got to completely reassess our list yeah but um like in brotherhood the gameplay is just improved ac2 with some pretty shitty level design but ultimately it's just improved ac2 but in terms of story it sucks but the story is so overwhelming yeah I mean because because you could because for you you like Odyssey more than origin simply because the story is a little bit better right yes for me I feel like if I had played this two games I would just I would begrudgingly like like I would just have origins as my favorite simply because it's it's it's even it's slightly more of an ac game than Odyssey is you know what I mean yeah so while rogue is an exception I think the story pretty much sucks on almost every level it doesn't work but it hits my number three because the gameplay experiences like you know really really impacted me more than black flag did and because black flag isn't like for me the all-time best ac story I have to only compare the gameplay stuff right and so that's why it's number three on my list if I was comparing story and and only story black flag would obviously be three right but I just think there's so much about rogue in terms of gameplay that I had such a fun time with and more fun than black flag you don't think you might even put black flag above two on a story level oh no given your complaints with the ending of ac2 are a lot more structural than the you know ac4 yeah I mean ac2 is ending pretty much sucks but what salvages it is the Minerva stuff right right yeah but my other complaint though about is like there's not much there's not much connection to the world with with shea's it says as a character but with black flag like everything that you were doing makes sense because it's something that you could feasibly say Edward would do right yeah and that's kind of where I know that you have a complaint of like excuse me the pirate fantasy kind of works better for that game than the privateer fantasy yeah that this game has yeah one of my big complaints with rogue is that there's not a very effectively conveyed central fantasy to the game there's not like a single sort of you know thing I can really hone in on because it's not really nailing the templar fantasy which it aims at but it doesn't really achieve because it's you know it's you're you're playing as a templar but the game is still an assassin's creed game you're still doing all the assassin stuff and I'm just not sure how well that tracks with what I would expect the templar experience to be like especially considering most other templars that you'll see or interact with in any of the ac games are not necessarily themselves doing assassin shit right there's not really a templar fantasy that's achieved here you I guess you could say that like working with people who normally would be your adversaries as an assassin is part of the templar fantasy but you're really just an assassin with that's wearing a cross and and it comes back to I feel like with with rogue and with shea and and the whole templar experience in the game is that it could have been the gameplay wise it could have been the same as it currently is and still fed more of the idea of a templar fantasy if it allowed you to be evil if the templars are evil you know and obviously look let me be very clear before I get too in on this on this idea I love the idea that the templars and the assassins it's not morally you know black and white there are degrees and and pretty much in all of the history of the franchise most of the the best templar characters thought that they were doing the right thing and thought that they were good people and obviously the templar experience in a game like this should reflect that but what they've done on a story and gameplay level is pretty much for just one game flip things around and make it so that the assassins are doing a bad thing and the templars are doing a good thing and I just think it could have been more interesting if they leaned into it and said okay for this game as a templar you're going to do things that are bad the kind of things you would expect the templar to do in any other assassin's creed game when they do things that are bad and and usually that's the extent of you know say finding a piece of Eden that can be used to control the masses buying into the idea of controlling the masses should be part of the character and part of the game but they ignore it for the entire duration of this story at no point is the idea of we're going to control people to make a better world at no point do you actually have to grapple with that ideology I think that if this was a more realistic story in terms of logical cause and effect chains right when Shay leaves the assassins for the reasons that he does leave the assassins which is that hey if I stay with this group of people they could be putting people's lives in danger and I don't want to be involved with that that I think they almost they almost make that work I don't think they completely do because the turn from I'm a devoted assassin to I'm going to now fuck up the assassins or even just I'm going to leave that turn is handled very very poorly it goes over I think this also represents some of the like identity crisis that this game has like the market is I'm an assassin hunter but yet like you're not really hunting people you're kind of just killing your old friends like yeah and what I was trying to get at is I don't see then how this Shay who's left the assassins pretty much joins the Templars without a second word because they gave him some clothes I mean does he ever stop to think that like the things that the Templars want that he knows they want because he's been in the organization that fights them for years why doesn't he realize that that pretty much means they're still the same organization just because one of them has done something nice for him why does he now think that they're not the same evil that they that he knew well that's the thing like I have I have something incredibly similar written down here is like Shay sometimes I can't even say he always does because sometimes he struggles with with having to kill his old friends and his old mentors and stuff yeah but he's never at all ideologically challenged his his his explanation to Liam is that he did it to save the world you know you can't argue with that right like do the Templars never do anything that's gonna harm the world I mean maybe sometimes right that could have been cool if Shay was kind of keeping other Templars in check you know and and he kind of does this with Haytham like ring the Templars back in and maybe be a force that can make the Templars better right or at least acknowledge what they do that's wrong I mean they flirt with that when when it's revealed to Shay that that Colonel Monroe essentially helped him knowing that he was an assassin the whole time and there's the implication that you know maybe maybe Shay has been manipulated into this that maybe he's been coerced taken advantage of really by someone who was not being completely forthright with him about his motivations that that should maybe inspire a feeling in Shay of hold on maybe you guys are actually being kind of shady it doesn't just like kind of with with with Connor you know in the context of George Washington like you want that moment to mean that they make a change in how they are and who they're siding with but it doesn't really do that instead he's just like uh well you know people are complicated when Rose a good buddy and we're gonna write cutesy letters to each other until he dies in a fire well that's the thing is Shay only joins up with the Templars so that they can sponsor him like they're sponsoring his trip around the world to kill people like that's not him choosing the ideology of the Templars he never even represents the ideology to his former assassins even when they question why he's made the switch you know he's never like because the Templars are the way to the to a freer world or whatever like he doesn't even he doesn't adopt the ideology he's also he's also never challenged either by his other people like or just challenged in general Shay the entire game is doing what he sees is right he's never doing something that he doesn't ultimately think he has to do of course like hope hope really didn't give him any other options but any remorse or any feelings of doubt about that is immediately brushed off by by Gist it kind of absolves him of his sins right usually in a good story and i've mentioned this on the podcast before especially you know when we're talking about like Ezio and Brotherhood for instance your character is going to begin by making fundamental assumptions about the world and in a traditional story the the circumstances that play out are going to challenge their belief and at the end their belief is either stronger or it's refuted right and we have Shay he begins this story with a fundamental belief that what the assassins are doing is killing you know people is is bad for the world and typically what you would see is a result of that being your first act headspace is that by the end of the game you've changed your mind a little bit like usually he would in a traditional story realize that the Templars are bad too i think the only thing that stopped this game probably from involving that and having the Templars be equally as bad if not more so is that then it can't end with him killing Charles Dorian and i think they really wanted to do that right but if that's going to be the end point then the headspace at the beginning has to be different and him becoming a Templar should be a decision he makes maybe closer to the end of the game but obviously then that doesn't make for a great selling point of here's the game where you play as a Templar so i get it i think it would have been difficult i think that with the circumstances that they provide us in this game with the explanation of the earthquake in Lisbon it already is stretching my suspension of disbelief first of all that the assassins would continue to do this thing that they know is harming people if they understood what was happening i think that you know you can make the case that when Otto Wally talks about what happened in uh was it Port-au-Prince or Prince of Pei um that they're then making the choice to keep pursuing them anyway but i don't get the impression that they fully understand what's going to happen is that there's going to be an earthquake and i think if they did understand that if they were given a chance to understand that they would know that they shouldn't keep doing what they are doing well yeah and it but it also completely goes gives validity to the to the fact that like she doesn't have any form of like concrete reason why he's joining the Templars because it's because it's not his ideology it's just well the assassins were mean to me so i guess i'm going to join these guys like i think a lot of this could have been solved and the very first thing he does is he steals the manuscript and he gets caught stealing the manuscript what is he what is his relationship like with with Achilles and with the assassins that he wouldn't think to just talk to them about it yeah it's like he goes in like he goes in there and he's like Achilles you cheated you cheated on my with my wife like he had an affair with my wife like he like okay it makes complete sense why he's angry but the fact that he doesn't go there and he's like guys it was terrible there was an earthquake he immediately assumes that they put him up to it on purpose right and they conversely immediately like you're trying to steal from us you're betraying the brotherhood we're going to now shoot you off of the cliff instead of being like shei shei calm down what are you doing stop it what happened that's a thing too right is there's it's never once it's never once suggested that the Templars might be an equal harm for the world right like i think the story could have it's also just because they've been written not to be because if you have hate them finding out about this whole thing and being like oh by gods that's terrible we should stop the assassins from doing this horrific thing when i think we know pretty well that like the Templars are gonna be if there's anything that the assassins are interested in with those with those whatever they're called spiky balls of Eden like the Templars are gonna want that shit too they always have well the tree of Eden the trees of Eden yeah the Templars aren't hearing one guy say it's terrible they caused earthquakes and being like oh then let's never investigate them ourselves and leave them be and stop the assassins they want to take them for themselves they don't want to they don't want to hide them they want to use them for themselves that's what Templars do that's what they've always done so they've now created a game where the assassins are uncharacteristically you know bizarrely motivated the fact that they still want to be seeking out these trees when they know what's going to happen and the Templars are equally like we've just made them into good guys they're all jolly happy wax museum good guys and they're just so boring but ultimately they're just not what you would expect the Templars to be like and that makes it a really disappointing Templar game it's very manipulative when you consider all the Templars that we've seen even the even the kind of good ones would still kill you any chance they got you know like the Templars are you know and that's the thing is is the best Assassin's Creed games play with that dichotomy in the in the gray area and so it would have been nice if there was completely evil pricks on the Templar side and completely good guys that you struggle with killing on the assassin side but what they did they've just manipulated you into being okay with killing the assassins and being okay with being on the Templar side and and because you as a player and Shea himself never struggles with these decisions it's a very milk toast Templar game that's why you know we kind of floated around this idea I think this game would have benefited from being from from Shea being the guy who's kind of making his third party group where he just kills both sides and whoever he sees is is a problem that would have been more interesting or even just playing a game where you are a Templar for the entire game and you're not necessarily a rogue assassin could have been interesting but I think they could have just I think they could have done exactly what they wanted to and just given us a better reason to leave the assassins and actually yes explored the ideology if you take the time with it and you give the character an ideological reason to support the Templars then as a player I can maybe support the Templars and I can play as that character and have a good time but instead this game just wants to ignore the ideology part entirely and so I'm as a player I have to second guess everything Shea is doing the entire time because I'm thinking wait a second but I know that the Templars want to control the world does Shea know that the Templars want to control the world is he down with that he should know that we don't know well here's another thing Lawson he should I wouldn't think he'd be down with that but here's another thing is the entire time right like instead of Shea being down with that and having to come to grips with like being down with the control of the world they still make him a hero regardless like he's Shea is completely worth rooting for if you consider that without him the world's gonna fall to all these earthquakes and the assassins are gonna ruin the world and etc I don't buy that but if if you are operating on that assumption then Shea is absolutely in which Shea is always operating on that assumption then Shea is a hero but the ending of the game which is seemingly what they really wanted to do so badly that they did all of this when Shea is like being this like kind of evil prick and he's like killing Charles and he's like we're gonna start a revolution of our own it's like that's that's not very like that that right there is like genuine Templar shit right that's like real villain shit especially if you know you know about unity already you know what happens to his dad and you are fucking hearing the kids playing you're hearing them talk about apples and shit and you're standing there knowing that you're about to orphan this fucking kid not that Shea knows that but we do so why are we pretending that it's not an element that we are that we're being villainous that we're doing things that are you know going to harm people you could talk about that and it could be interesting all of the marketing points towards that being the case too is that like Shea was going to be this ruthless motherfucker because he's walking up on an old friend of his which for all intent like in the original cinematic for all intents and purposes that could that that was basically Altair that striking image of him pointing a rifle at an assassin that you know it's basically like this isn't your this isn't your grandma's Assassin's Creed we're fucking killing us we're out here killing assassins now but yet that's not the game what you're doing is you're saving the world you're not going around killing assassins because you because you want to you're doing it because you think it's going to save the world and that's noble I guess but it's not really like it doesn't fulfill that Templar fantasy right like it would have been really interesting too is if they really like leaned into it really hard and like found new gameplay systems that to support the Templar fantasy like maybe you can't leap of faith you know like maybe you can't do these things and they find other things to put in its place obviously I know why they didn't do that because it's basically black flag but with rogue skin but I just think if you're really if you're really doing the Templar fantasy there are things I think that you need to remove like I think it would be interesting to see how a Templar would handle this because basically you handle it like an assassin right like all of the stuff is handled like an assassin would but with the Templar you know flair you know I mean I think Darby said once that like a Templar game wouldn't look like an Assassin's Creed game it looked like a like an RTS or you know strategy game because what Templars are doing day to day is they're manipulating seats of power and they're controlling things and like they could have introduced I think an element of that into this game like as a side thing that that Assassin's Creed likes to do with little gimmicks about controlling you know populations or controlling your environment could have even gone a little bit proto like watchdogs on it if you know because watchdogs is all about giving you systemic control of your surroundings if the Templars had systemic control of their surroundings in a more indirect way that that in that makes the game more engaging that could have been really cool to see too but I get that we're holding this you know six sequence spin-off game by Ubisoft Sophia to pretty high standards when we talk about things like that what's not holding them to a high standard how about the segue huh is expecting them to write characters that don't suck because when you think about comparing this game to AC4 and regardless of your personal feelings about AC4 or its ending you have to admit that the cast of likable side characters from Blackbeard to Hornigold to Vayne all those steed all those people are really good right no absolutely uh the actual the the the most like impactful scene in Black Flag for me was when steed was like the courage you have instilled in me I will never forget like it was just so nice to see I really appreciated that scene yeah I felt like really affected when I think I only realized on this last playthrough that I'm pretty sure when you're watching like Mary and yeah they say he fucking died they say he fucking died yeah it was hanged or whatever fucking steed anyway though um the characters in this game all universally suck and here's why uh you have Christopher Gist you have Colonel Monroe you have uh all these people on the Templar side even Haytham Haytham was the one character in AC3 who was immune from the wax museum character writing of that game and in this game he is a victim of it because Haytham is such a boring motherfucker in this game it is unbelievable Haytham straight up sucks in this game he never says anything cool or funny or interesting he does not have a personality besides being like I'm the grandmaster of the Templars you'll listen to what I'm saying I mean in in AC3 he has lines like now I'm going to feed you your teeth where's that Haytham what happened the whole time the whole time he's just kind of like your boss that comes in to check on you quarterly you know and all of the all of the other characters who are Templars that you interact with are like happy tree friends they're just like you know Christopher Gist who's like hey there Shay we're gonna do some privateering today isn't that great don't we love the Templars it's wonderful I'm having such a good time when they ask me about hell freezing over I will remember these days finally ah Shay we've been friends for like a year you've really changed my life for the better and like Colonel Monroe is like hello it's me Colonel Monroe I got you some clothes and uh don't these gangs suck like they're all just really boring they're really they're not characters the way that those those pirate friends were they're they're just completely flat and the assassins dude I'm pretty sure that you could take all of the speeches that they give at the end when they're being killed in those memory corridors everything they say you could mix and match like blindly you could read any one of those memory corridors and without certain giveaway like plot circumstances you would never be able to tell who said what because they could have all said the exact same thing they're all the same character Liam Hope Kasegawa say chevelier they're all just boring assassin mouthpieces basically there's also not any kind of an explanation why the assassins in the last what two years have devolved into gangs like there's an explanation like why has that happened and none of the assassins even explain it it's just they are supporting gangs that go and rob people blindly it's like that's so uncharacteristic and why are they wearing burnt orange what the fuck is up with that color it's so uncharacteristic dude yeah it's very strange especially when you consider that rogue as as one of its core conceits is like look the assassins are doing gang shit now they're terrorizing the public we should be really fucking upset about this and then we know that like two years later no a year later we're playing syndicate and it's like these assassins have a gang now dude it's so cool it's so fun and cool to have a gang don't you love it okay so basically i rewatched some of the marketing for this game and i realized that a lot of the scenes they seem to hide the fact that she is an assassin in some of those scenes they put him in the templar gown and stuff it forced some of the scenes like the scene where he's talking to akili is about the manuscript and he steals it and whatever and that that really made me realize that from the first part of the game where you're where you steal the manuscript from akili's you don't talk to akili's again until the end of the game like we talk about this all the time we talked about which has ray and etzio the fact that every single time Liam and akili's are just are just slipping through your fingers you know they're just out of your grasp it made me think that like if she had been a templar by this point and he's and he's arguing with akili's about the manuscript and he's arguing with akili's about the trees of eden it would have made a lot more sense as like their conflict but they just disappear from each other and then at the end of the game suddenly you're like akili's like damn he wasn't lying these really do cause earthquakes it's like what like what gave you that information if there was a clash constantly like back and forth of like she's like you're wrong and akili's like you're wrong that one would have challenged his ideology change it would have given the finale more impact yeah like why do I care if he's about the stab akili's if we've only seen akili's for like five minutes of this game so that that to me is one manipulative but it's just like it's such a missed opportunity because you could have had she consistently encountering akili's or liam and liam would have been the character to call she out on his bullshit but they don't have any of that like you know another missed opportunity is why don't you have like liam like mourning shea shea disappears they think he's dead right and no character is affected by that if you don't see any character be like man I miss shea you know so it just takes the humanity out of all of the assassins shea was flawed but he was a brother yeah no no no no well that's the thing right is like I was picturing him like he was like tailing liam and it turns out he's tailing liam to like his grave and it's shea's like a shea's grave and he's like mourning over him and that would have made it fucking hard to have to kill him right but no we just don't see liam ever again and when we do he's like what would shea know he's a dumb ass and then he causes the earthquake yeah yeah pretty much it's like aren't you guys really childhood best friends shouldn't shouldn't shea's betrayal not be a matter of assumption shouldn't you interact with shea as a Templar and him and like okay imagine that you are like have like you come you cross paths with liam and he finds out that you're alive and he sees you in a Templar outfit and he's like wouldn't that rock liam's world that would have been actual like like really that would have been really good shit but instead of who who discovers him gets like a wase who dies almost instantly afterwards you know it's just I think it would have been dope if you know we see kind of liam mourning him and maybe even akiles because akiles needs some fucking humanity in this game and then we realize then liam crosses paths with shea and he's like holy fuck you're alive and you're a Templar my world is turned upside down and then actually fighting him at the end would have been a really difficult thing to do nothing in this game is difficult to do because shea is the hero who's saving the world yeah yeah I mean here's like here's the notes I wrote for for this episode I wrote story sucks hate them sucks Christopher Giss sucks shea sucks make my own luck is a stupid cat phrase gameplay pretty fun though let's talk about that dude make my own luck it pissed me off more on this playthrough than it ever has before like I used to be I used to be a defender I used to make excuses for it I'd be like what it sounds kind of cool but now when he says I'll make I make my own look like he's really like what does that fucking mean dude what does it mean anytime anyone says hey good luck he like he acts like they've offended him personally and he's like wait a second did you just say good luck I'll have you know I make my own look it's stupid it's dumb and bad I hate it yeah basically when it's not just in terms of like like no one's saying just like like if someone said to shea hey good luck then that would make some sense but when haytham is like with a little bit of luck we should do this just fine and he's like I make me own luck and haytham's like well I don't we need some luck all right well I don't actually I don't have monopoly on luck shea so I don't I don't own a single luck factory shea I'm in possession of no man-made luck and I'd appreciate it if you understood that or haytham's like well then stop hogging it I'll send you some in the mail oh my god Alex but I'd some luck with two-day shipping yeah it's it's terrible it's like it turns out that it turns out that having luck in the way that you acquire it are separate things it's just it just doesn't make sense as a response to something like like yeah that's a great example they were just looking for reasons to have him say it throughout the game so that it could be his catchphrase but like there's no like explanation for it like is there a backstory about shea being particularly lucky or unlucky and and also I have to point out you know this is a man I don't think we've mentioned the podcast but we've talked about it before somebody suggested in the development of ac4 that they should bring back the hook blade from revelations and Darby was like no we're not going to bring make the hook blade because having a pirate with a hook for a hand is such a cliche and you get the sense that like anyone other than Darby would have been like oh hooks pirates that's brilliant right and that's exactly what happened on rogue that they're like oh we have an irish protagonist let's give him a catchphrase about luck how stereotypical can you possibly be for this irish dude to care a whole heck of a lot about luck well I get that there's probably something to be said for that being a stereotype but it's very on the nose just like having a pirate with a hook blade would have been very on the nose so you know don't do it would have been interesting if he was actually particularly unlucky and sure constantly just like dealing with it by making his own luck you know like or if it meant something other than just a cliche he could throw out like what's an example of him doing something that makes his own luck what's an example of an action that he takes where he's like I have to you know if you interpret it as being prepared for something and not relying on luck to to bring you success it's a fine thing to believe in but he never really is doing that right so yeah I just you know and yeah this is not any explanation for the gang shit but that being said though you know the for most of the game I really enjoyed the like assassin system where you had like finally assassins and kill them before they killed you oh yeah that's super fun I dig that oh also I was waiting to do the pot I was into the do the episode on this for me to tell you did you know you know how when you do the eagle vision you have a little compass I know what you're about to say I know what you're about to say I well yeah so I so you are aware that it's a multiplayer thing yes yeah and the whispers it's one to one the multiplayer experience because the whispers are in the multiplayer when someone's near you and the compass is putting you toward your target it's it's all AC classic AC multiplayer stuff so I do enjoy the way it exists in rogue at the start of the game you're like oh shit they're near me you know and after a while you start you start like knowing where to look and what hiding spots and whatnot what's also really cool is it's is it's where you as an assassin would hide yeah so you know where to look after a while because like well if it were me I'd be in those bushes right and so I just like that's a really cool way and and that would have been interesting and so that actually does add some coherence to you being a former assassin a former assassin yeah because you know the tactics right you know you know what they're going to pull on you I also just really enjoy a lot of the tools that they added for this game like the grenade launcher is a no-brainer it works perfectly the air rifle is pretty much the same as the darts from ac4 but having the firecracker dart is a really nice addition that gives you a lot more possibilities in stealth contexts also you know the free aiming puckle gun is brilliant that should have been the case from minute one of naval gameplay but took them a while to figure that out and like I wish that we could retrofit them into ac4 I also liked it there's a little circle that expands out from you when you whistle I think this is the only game that does that it's kind of funny to me that like that is the best implementation of whistling and when ac3 remastered gave you the ability to whistle in bushes they didn't also keep that element of it which is presumably the best way it's been yeah it kind of combines the like syndicate sound wave meter with the whistling it's it's really cool and it's nice because you have no indication in ac in the previous games just how far your whistle can go right so it is yeah it's a nice thing you know the other thing about naval too is I actually found myself enjoying the naval in this game a little bit more simply because you have the narrower seas so that you have to kind of like be on your toes and not hit the land and and the icebergs are cool but also I noticed that because there was so many other places that I could get resources and money because this game does have a pretty good economy system I was like doing the gang hideouts also helped me get money to be able to get resources doing the supply camps and the settlements helped me with like resources and whatnot and so I wasn't always relying on going and finding a man of war to go and in a plunder and so by the end of the game I was still enjoying the naval experience because I wasn't tired of it with black fly I got kind of tired of it because that was the most efficient way to get to get stuff right yeah I also want to point out as far as things that I do like that I actually like as far as story goes I know you said you like the Lisbon thing for me I do really like the final confrontation with Achilles and Liam and Haytham yeah I like the way that it plays out like on a structural level I like the way that like the the assassins realize what's going on but they still kind of fuck it up accidentally and then Haytham shooting Achilles in the leg is a super satisfying moment especially because the timing of it is like it's so brilliant because you see the end screen for the mission and you're like continue and then he's like bam and you're just like oh that's how it happens it's amazing I'm pretty sure don't they kind of tease doesn't in the fight with Shea and Achilles towards the beginning doesn't kind of seem like he hurts his leg yeah well yeah that's because yeah because he kicks his leg a little bit and you're like oh that's how it happens but then he's back on his feet and you're like oh maybe not yeah yeah so that was that was really great moment there at the end like that almost the the satisfaction of that conclusion plus then going on to the you know Charles Dorian memory like bringing it very like full circle in a satisfying way like like it made me think the story was better than it actually was the first time I played it because I do think that structurally like it's really interesting to compare what makes rogue bad versus what makes ac3 bad because they're pretty much different diseases like they're different problems in those games ac3 structurally is fucked it's got the weirdest strangest like starting off with you know having like six sequences of tutorial content and all of that stuff like those are big problems for that story rogue is tight it's very structurally sound and it follows the beats of the narrative pretty clearly it just fails to make the character is interesting it fails to make their motivations believable and it fails to take advantage of the like ideological you know center that it really should have been built over that makes them really interesting case studies I think in terms of how storytelling can go wrong in an ac game I actually yeah I mean I completely agree with you I think I think the game definitely suffers from an identity crisis they don't know if they want you to be a full-blown assassin murderer or they want you to be a hero or they want you to also be a hero that's a Templar and all the other Templars are heroes like it's so it's so weird because we've seen throughout the games that there are Templars that are just you know pieces of shit and there are assassins that aren't great and this game was actually primed to take advantage of those extremes and maybe you are a Templar that's perhaps a little more like Haytham who clearly has you know a soft spot for people he cares about and ultimately thinks he's doing the right thing Haytham actually is a really interesting position because he comes from a line of assassins we're not so much a line but he comes from he comes from an assassin comes from an assassin it's just it's just so interesting how like Haytham actually would have been a more interesting assassin you know or a potential assassin turned Templar game than we would have seen with with with with Shea yeah it's just there's a there's a lot of things that it could have done they don't only do any of them well it just kind of try it's just kind of like it just kind of flops around and tries all of them at once and uh yeah it's just not to backtrack too much but it would have been more difficult to kill these assassins if they all didn't hate you like if they all were sad to see you'd be a Templar and they were and they were also like well i'm glad you're alive but they also also try and murder you so whatever it's fucking ridiculous so i think we've pretty much summed up our thoughts on rogue have we not uh thank you for listening to this episode and hearing us express our opinions on rogue as always you can leave us a comment follow us on twitter at hookblade like and subscribe to our youtube channel and of course it does help us out if you turn on that bell icon and get notifications about future episodes so we appreciate you guys listening and i've been the hook i've been the blade and we will see you next week