 Happy holidays and welcome to the Dairy Runlet show It's quite fitting that we would be doing a show on gay rights at this holiday season because in November of this year they had a special celebration and that was was called Transgender Day of Remembrance and as a result of that day Joe Biden went on national television and said I am going to bring back and Enhance gay rights and transgender rights, and that's what this show is about ladies and gentlemen During this Christmas season. I have two very important guests with me today One of them is one of the most important people of my life has been for the last 55 years when she was born to me at Bowdoin College Ladies and gentlemen meet my daughter Nicole Runlet Nicky. How are things in Florida? A lot better than they are in Seattle right now I'm sure weather wise beautiful the manatee here are out and swimming around and Having great time and yep the the fish are jumping and we're right in right into the frying pan too So we're definitely enjoying it You're down in Crystal River, which is pretty much the manatee capital of the world so to speak Watching amenities come to the very spot where Chuck and Malice have their property and the manatees come in there And all the tourist folks come in there along with the manatees, right? Oh Absolutely, they're her and they all have their little noodles swimming around and goggles and they sound they sound like the manatee when they're blown out There's snorkel so Well, that's one of my favorite things down in Nicky is not the lead stone crab But watch the manatees ladies and gentlemen my second guest is someone who was also very important to me because she's a fellow attorney Our sister attorney I should say and she's also president of P flag in Portland Sarah. Welcome to my show Hi, Derry. So thanks so much for having me on here today And my first question to you Sarah would be what what do the initials P flag me? so P flag is a We are a chapter of the national group Which is the parents and friends of lesbians and gays and it doesn't have the letter t in there But we are an ally group supportive of everyone in the LGBTQ plus community and the national group was started back in 1972 and Now there are over 400 chapters across the country Our chapter here in Portland, Maine There's another one in Maine the Waterville chapter is pretty active and we are Trying to do supports and education and advocacy so that the groups of friends and families Around the LGBTQ community Have the resources that they need to learn what they need to do to be good friends good family members and supportive of their LGBTQ loved ones Sarah right out of the blocks In the last four years that you have been serving on that board with my dear friend my dear friend and neighbor was going to Pay today Beth Tyler in those four years. Have you seen a decrease In the rights afforded to gays and an increase in discriminatory behavior against gays and transgenders and people of that persuasion Well, there's no question that hate crimes have been increasing over the last four years under the Trump administration You know, well, he's been so vocal in so many of his his problematic areas racism sexism homophobia transphobia I Understand that it's been about a 20% increase in the last four years according to FBI numbers Just last year 2019 in the state of Maine There were about 19 different hate crimes represented and of those almost 40% were Based on people with the LGBTQ community. So those are terrifying numbers It's that fear that is one of the reasons that that family of LGBTQ people Sometimes have a hard time accepting that their loved one is a member of this community mostly because we don't want people to be susceptible to those sorts of Of attacks and you obviously want your people to be protected Here in Maine, we have some pretty good strong protections. But of course nationally Again, at least through the regulatory process. There have been Reductions in rights across the board. I think one of the biggest ones of course is in the military Transgender people who have served our country so well And and vocally and with the military's own support Nevertheless, we're we're denied the right to enroll and I think that that hopefully is going to be changing again Sarah, I wish to tell you as I preface my question to nicky That I was in Portland at Derry Oaks and was the first person to see Lady Gaga get off her boss With entourage of 30 people my god, and she got up and gave one of the best speeches I've ever heard I didn't actually know who she was and she got up and spoke directly to Susan Collins and Olympia snow and said You're going to be the swing vote on this to uh to stop discrimination against gays in the military I was very uh Very pleased to listen to her and then very pleased that Susan Collins and Olympia snow both did vote that way But nicky the question I want to ask you is this You're watching the campaign Of 2016 and you're watching the president of united states point to a sign behind him that says lb gtq for Donald Trump and he goes oh look at this Look at this sign And look at this look at the support I've got and then within days within minutes Of being in that administration the first thing he did was what sarah said was to go after trans in the military Then he's going out to health benefits, and I've never even gotten into pence yet and that's that's later Nicky, how did that make you feel to see the president suddenly turn after getting elected? Well, I certainly think that one of the most surprising Statement you made was that you didn't know who lady gaga was or didn't know much about her But no, I actually to think um to see We have donald trump up on stage Talking about his support and how he had support of the lgbtq community Once again, it's typical Typical donald trump you don't you don't listen to what he says, but you you watch what he does his actions And his actions spoke way louder than his words ever ever did and he rolled back so many of the All the the rights and the other guidance that the obama administration had put forth And he put I guess he went on a rampage of turning those back around So, um, yep, certainly wasn't a I wasn't a big fan of his if you can tell Well, uh, the other thing I wanted to say to both nicky and sarah Uh, it is that What concerned me the most was that I think uh, a lot of people perhaps got faked out I have to say that when I heard him say that I thought to myself. All right That's that's my guy and then when susan collins voted for cavanaugh I'll never forget what she said in her speech She said one of the things that I liked most about cavanaugh was his his position on gay rights And what she meant was pro gay rights not anti gay rights And what does cavanaugh do? He writes the a scathing dissent in the opinion we're going to discuss Which is now considered one of the best cases in in the country on gay rights And so sarah when the gorsuch opinion came down Were you as faked out as many of us quote legal scholars were when the opinion came down Four gay rights and gorsuch was the runner wrote the opinion I I was completely shocked. Um, you know when I saw that that case was was coming up before the court And just as things have changed over the last four years I was worried about how things were going to come down and um Again, that was you know, it's as you know, there were three cases there to with with uh, People who were gay getting discriminated against and one with the woman who was transgender Amy stevens who unfortunately died before seeing that good news Um, but it was such a thrill to see that that they did actually interpret sex Discrimination to include the gender identity and the sexual identity of people So it was it was a thrill to see that Well, uh, uh getting back to the trans issue Uh in 2020, uh, it's 37 37 people were reported killed as trans And they also indicate that many of these crimes go unreported so violence increased And this decision doesn't come until june of 2020 the gorsuch decision But nicky during that time The last seven years did you ever? Feel threatened or or is it such that you are so obviously seem Maybe not so obviously trans as some people do going the transition period We know folks that when the when the person who was trans goes through the process They change from male to female or female to male and until they reach the end point They they're really in transition. Have you noticed yourself any sort of? Uncomfortable behavior When I came out, uh, I was in florida at the time, uh, and You know, certainly, you know, parts of the country can be a little bit You know more or trans friendly or trans unfriendly and and certainly there were some very awkward times for me As a as a woman or a trans woman in her mid thirties who was transitioning Certainly very awkward times in my parents the way I carried myself and you can tell in just the way People either conduct themselves around you or how your friends may react, of course to your your outward appearance Uh, it certainly it certainly is something that was obvious and apparent to me Um, fortunately, I didn't have any, uh extreme negative or any type of physical type of retaliation or reactions But it certainly it can be much worse for many many other in the trans community And I I really I really feel fortunate that I did not but feel just so bad for those that they do experience the discrimination and and the uh, you know the physical harm And sarah, um, one of the reasons why you are a member of this organization is that you Are yourself have a child who is uh transgender. Am I correct? Yes? So my son, uh, who's in college now, but he came out to me when he was 14 first as gender fluid and then He did just realize he was transgender male And so coming out in a you know public school system here in maine one thing that I think is important to recognize You know for the transgender people as well as as uh gay people is that the harassment in schools is still Very prevalent, of course homophobia is a common sort of middle school Slur that people people use all the time and so Again, we were pretty fortunate with my son's experience. He was he's very he's a very out child very out and proud Which not everyone feels comfortable being But they have some good civil rights activities days in school and Good gsa's the folks at one of our partner organizations glisten I helped the school systems with their gay straight alliances so that the youth in schools can Get some support and hopefully help minimize the bullying in schools Um, so that is certainly happening a lot as well As well too and so we're we're working to try to decrease that negative atmosphere And now sarah, I wish to move to um the more vocal person uh in the um administration And that was uh vice president michael pence And one of my biggest concerns Was this was a vice president Who not only leaned towards being anti-gay, but vocalized it on national television He and his wife indicated a tremendous amount of pride In the fact that she refused to teach at any school that would allow either gay students Or gay faculty I'm going to ask you a question as an attorney Uh sarah How does the school enforce that if two girls are holding arm and arm walking through the corridor a guy Pat's buddy uh On the back side after he scores a point in the soccer match or our two friends are Talking intimately with each other Do they get reported how how does the school enforce that you know? I Is a rhetorical question. I'm not sure obviously. I don't think they should be enforcing it at all and uh the the The Decisions are coming down in our favor, but I think that you know the atmosphere of homophobia the hallway discrimination that students face Again, what you really have is is teachers and administration turning a blind eye to it and allowing that sort of bullying and discrimination to happen I think that is is a big prevalent problem that we that we're working to overcome Uh, you know, I'm not sure about uh Pence's wife's school there what they what they try to do I think they have a religious exemption and I think that's one of the difficulties And you know, I think gorsuch even in that good opinion Left to crack in the door um on the issue of religious exemption So that's something we need to be be mindful of moving forward. Uh, you know the efforts here are not done Right and and sarah one of the things that I noticed about that decision was just what you mentioned Uh, those of us that praised the decision like myself because I now see my daughter protected and My friends protected and folks I didn't begin the episode by just mentioning my daughter But also I have many friends who are gay judges who are gay lawyers who are gay And many friends who have children who are gay or trans I'm not talking about seven or eight folks. I'm talking about dozens Dozens of people that in my life that this is their way of life and I want them protected But gorsuch did leave the door open sarah. Do you believe that uh in in further decisions? We're going to see that lean toward okay religious. Okay, we're going to give you a pass on the religious thing Just like with the covet thing in church saying okay, I'm sorry Do you think that's going to occur again? I wish I didn't think that was going to occur, but uh with the newest justice replacing uh, ruth ginsburg, uh, amy Amy barrett, uh, obviously she's got uh I don't know if saying strong religious credentials is the right phrase or not here But i'm sure that was a lot of the reason why she's on there So I think that that's going to be an area that is going to be litigated quite a bit and um and I think we're going to have have our work cut out for us in in Really understanding where those lines are drawn between religious freedom and and protecting the basic human rights Of humans. Um, again, I don't remember what the case, uh name was but you know the um the wedding cake case that came down Again Um, so so there's some some fine lines to be working there A one thing just to throw some numbers out at you though just as you mentioned there Just uh, you know reviewing some of the portland, uh the p flag information that we have Nationally eight out of ten people know somebody who is in the lgbtq community nowadays And so you know that figure, you know, that means so many people are allies And I think that's part of the cultural shift as we realize that people are just people Um, that's what's allowed the cultural shift to have everything be more accepted Uh that I think some of the more fundamental religions are are fighting against And so I think that um, we've got demography in our in our corner But a lot of work to keep doing one of the things that I was how I was going to retort with that Is so 80% Say that they are aware where are the other 20% living under a rock? Are they not are they not watching television? Are they not watching movies? I'm not reading magazines Uh, I remember once I was doing Elvis Presley at boarding college and I was putting on my outfit this 14 year old boy came by and he goes, who are you supposed to be? I said Elvis He goes, who's Elvis and I said to myself where you've been under a rock But so what you're saying is certainly in certain areas of the country will remain unnamed Those would be people that would say not not only do I not know any gay people I wouldn't hang around with any gay people By the way folks those days are coming to an end and I want to get back to the school situation I want to ask this question of Mickey Mickey you You and I have I've got three grandchildren Twins Kyler and Turner now 20 and in college and Evan Gifted and talented also in college and they turn them and Kyler graduated with honest Do you think that they have have changed in their attitudes? About gays either because of you or because of having friends Who are gay or twins? No, that's a great question And and I certainly do think that it it made them more aware to be certain And and as I guess we pointed out the prevalence of of you know children Coming out to their friends their peers their their family to let them know that You know, I'm gay or I'm transgender Or gender fluid whatever that happens to me I think that it's becoming more and more prevalent in the schools and therefore they're exposed to it They realize that these are are people just like us so I I think that My my coming out certainly made them more aware, but I think just in general everyday living They're seeing more and more of it and are becoming more and more accepting at an earlier age Which is just wonderful And nicky is it not true that as you were going through your transition Kyler and turner had a friend who was going through the same exact thing And they recognized the need to take this person under their wing so to speak to become friends And they actually embraced that child that was going through that that occurred while they were in high school. Was it not? Yep, correct. And and you're right. It was a trans male and became friends with both of them in fact and And I certainly think once again, they were sensitive to what this young man was going through And perhaps some of the bullying that was occurring And I think that they were a strong influence in trying to help the others accept except the young man Well, would you please tell them I love them and I I appreciated that when they did it folks when Nicky's in my book first came out Full circle of father's journey with the trans gender child written by both myself and my daughter nicky Um, we went on a cruise with the grandchildren. I threw the book in the middle of the corner on the table I said here take a look at this book Look at the pictures skim through it because you need to know about it And then they said why popper I said because you need to figure out who's going to play you if they make a book A movie out of this book One of the things I wanted to ask you sarah Getting back to the the Bostic opinion bostic versus clayton county. And by the way folks, this was a lot of man Who was playing on a Baseball team or softball team? That was openly gay. He was a county employee They said they fired him for I don't know other reasons, but they proved lawyers proved That it was obviously that he was gay and that's the case that is now Going to be constitutional law till the end of time sarah. Do you think At law school where you and I went do you think that they're the constitutional law professors are making a big deal about that decision? I certainly I certainly hope so. Uh, you know again how the constitution's read how the statute uh, Civil rights statute is read is is going to have an impact You know down the line I'll get my titles wrong, but the whatever title that was I think was title seven that governs Level seven. Yeah, and then the next question is the title nine where there's a lot of action that governs sports again Women and transgender people in sports is obviously going to be a big a big area I hope you don't mind me going backwards a little bit though, dairy Please do please do just because we were talking about the support and eight out of 10 people knowing lgbtq people And uh, you know you generally you know made a small comment about geography And again here in main. We have such a rural state and it's so big. I just want to put a shout out P flags headquarters is here in portland at the equality center, which houses four different Groups that support the lgbtq community equa main a main trans net glisten and the portland pride group And main trans net particularly has done very well Over this pandemic and even before the pandemic actually reaching out into the rural areas of the state So of course portland is a hot spot of people and population where people can meet for support groups But there are gay and transgender people statewide and they're living in these rural areas And a lot of them are staying closeted because they are Fear that they lack the support in their friends and families to come out And so they are everywhere and they need support everywhere Main trans net's been good doing resources out there and then the benefit here for portland p flag We do of course monthly support meetings for friends and family to come And it's peer-to-peer support where we talk through what we're going through and help us process our feelings so that we can best support people And we have had to take a pause during the pandemic because our volunteer board members as wonderful as we are Had a little learning curve on the technology And so in december we started our first online zoom support meetings and the first meeting went well We're very pleased with it and that's happening again In january and the nice thing about this pandemic the silver lining is that people can join a zoom meeting from anywhere in the state So even though we're portland p flag Folks from the rural areas even from up in the county can join in if they need that support So I do want to do a little shout out make sure people check It's our website of course is P flag portland main dot org and that's where you can get information about our support meetings and get invited because of course we keep it We do have some confidentiality and protections in there So just wanted to get back to that that it does hit the rural areas as well Thank you, sarah and nicky with respect to you pick it up on sarah's point And by the way, I feel good that we're not hurrying because we have a this could be a two-part show I feel I want to ask you nicky. Have you Recently joined any groups like this p flag thing Are you a member of any organization either on the internet or facebook? Whatever that support each other with with concerns that are going on in the country Yes, as a matter of fact on the on facebook have a couple of groups that i'm a member of And and linkedin as well, there are some support groups out there that you know support The employment ranks of the lgbtq community. So i've certainly participated in those Probably not as much time as i'd like to be able to spend with it but Certainly a member and and read the the posts and the articles and such Well, i'm going to get back to this bastard decision, which i'm so fond of And i'm going to talk some lawyer talk here One of the dissents from clarence thomas What he said was there is no way That the civil rights act of 1964 was meant to include Gays and transgender because they weren't even thought of back then i forget his thing was he said the concept of sex orientation Was unknown in 1964 and therefore Uh, there's no way that they would have been considered or thought about and you know something I better agree with him Sarah and nicky because i submit to you From watching all the shows about linden johnson getting that act fast That if he had said to any of those say southern senators or conservative senators Oh, by the way, uh, we want you to consider the the gays and the transgenders And uh people that want to change the sex i know for a fact that many of those senators want to say hey hold on president johnson I don't mind helping the uh the african-americans and the blacks, but no i'm not gonna No, i'm not gonna extend these rights to homosexuals No way or people that want to change their section so they can go use another bathroom so in in effect sarah can we agree that thomas is probably Somewhat correct saying that those senators never were voted back He sort of corrected me Well, you know, I mean, you know what what the people who voted for it had in mind is one thing And I think I actually wrote down this quote and preparing for this uh from the gorsuch opinion Where he said the limits of the drafters imagination supply no reason to ignore the law's demands And that really gets to you know when I think about transphobia and uh the excessive numbers of murders of Especially uh black and people of color transgender women especially You know that feeds in from the homophobia because someone who finds themselves attracted to that person Is so internally upset about themselves because they think homophobia is a bad thing and homophobia is a bad thing And it gets back to the patriarchy. So the use of the word sex Back in 1964 when we were talking about just women's rights Um, you know that really is why homophobia and transphobia is such a problem So I don't think it's problematic To identify that that is what what needs protected Uh sarah, I had did not read those exact words That you talked about with gorsuch pretty saying I don't it's not what they thought about it's what it's what the concept is of uh, and and and what he talked about It's what I love about the decision is we're talking about human rights And that's exactly what joe biden said when joe biden said trans rights are human rights Uh, and we are going to advance the rights of these people One of the things that I also wanted to discuss with you nicky is as This decision has now come down And absolutely and unequivocally protects gays transgender sexual orientation in the workplace Uh, the the religious thing is not going to work at that level So nicky, have you experienced in the in the last four years any sort of employment situations where you felt That uh, there was absolute discrimination going on Uh, I would say, uh, definitely to that to that question Uh, as you know, I'm working into my maybe third decade of my career So, uh, yeah, I've certainly experienced, uh, you know my career as as both a male as nick and as as nicole a female and there was a period where I would Uh, you know, I was trying to interview for positions to return back to florida So I could be closer to my children your grandchildren And there were certainly periods of time there where I would interview and would go through the interview process and get You know into the late stages where the the offer was pending of a background check and I would you know, they would Conduct the background check learn that my previous name was ellsworth turner runlet the fourth And and I in all of a sudden I'd get a phone call back saying that either the job had Uh, been been cancelled or postponed or that they were deciding to give it to someone else Or that I needed to jump through several more hoops in the process and So deep down inside I I knew that there was some discrimination going on Though nobody would come out and actually tell me that I was being discriminated against for obvious reasons Uh, but I I certainly had that experience and and uh, I'm sure others Can can point out to very similar experiences as well And nicky what you're reporting to me is something that I recall hearing from you at least a couple times When you said oh my goodness, you won't believe this like they love me They don't she stayed there all over me like a cheap suit of clothes And uh, it's just a matter of uh, you know signing with the daughter of Ryan and the next thing you know Oh, no, oh my god. No, we we we never implied that and and and that's why you said to me earlier That well, I can't prove it and sarah. That's uh, what I'm going to come to you in part two But right now we're coming up on 30 minutes of our first show. Uh, that's how fast it's going Ladies and gentlemen, uh, I want to wish all of you a very happy holiday season Behind me on the wall is uh, Brenda Lee's gold racket rocking around the Christmas tree She just had her 76th birthday and her song was number four on the top 100 this week Rocking around the Christmas tree, but I'm going to play for you as we sign off silent night for my time We'll see you next month for part two Oh