 Order Alderman Hannah, would you please take the roll? foreign here Wow here Serda don't know excused. Yes, sir Hyde here Kittleson excused Clowness here Manny here Maya here Here Ryan Vanderweel for Hasson excused Wongamon and Hannah is here Horm is present Moving on to item number three and that will be an update on our new police station by mr John Sabin ash of Zimmerman architect studios incorporated mr. Sabin ash could you come up and give us our updates? Thank you, it feels like a long time, but then again it hasn't been we've been meeting regularly and Have been working toward reconciling the design of the project. We expect to be going out to bid July 8th We expect to receiving bids on August 2nd We are optimistic We've got a project out for bid currently and there are 14 bidders and 12 have pre-qualified in a Smaller magnitude project, but nonetheless it looks like there's a lot of bid interest in projects So again, we're cautiously optimistic There were two significant issues and one peripheral one that we'll deal with later, which is cost But there were two issues that were party of the discussion today One is the nature of the soil conditions on the site and the second was Methane and how it might impact the design of the building and fortunately or unfortunately I have experience with both products and designed buildings that have been around for a long time now So I can adequately address the nature of those from a design perspective the first being I guess we'll deal with the soil conditions One is that the materials we're dealing with in the soil strata that are defined out there are natural materials There's nothing here that is is at all nothing came down from Mars. This is all existing Generally organic materials Organic materials have resided under buildings for a long time and there are methodologies to deal with the design of them In localized conditions like we have here The strategy that we've used because it seems to be most cost effective Effectively in an order of a magnitude of half is to use what's called a geo peer a geo peer is effectively a stone column What happens is the Manufacturing company when I say geo peers it's like Kleenex or Xerox. There are other Manufacturers of systems like this so we're not being proprietary. It'll be competitively acquired But what they effectively do is come in and drill a hole and then place stone either through a vigorous process of Compaction or in a more settled approach depending on the methodology that they use to create a series of stone columns That helped to stabilize the soil lettered soil products that are adjacent so it's a it's a product that's been around a long time now over 10 years have a project that For the city of Brookfield that was built a foot above the floodplain on the Fox River They had geo peers micro piles and the like and the building is held up quite well with extraordinary loads That's a DPW building so the floor loads and clear span structures that we're dealing with there are Substantially higher than what we're dealing with on this site and that building project has held up quite well So from a soils perspective, there's nothing out there that we haven't managed effectively in the past and we would look to manage It effectively in the future in terms of methane again. That's a natural product. It occurs. It moves vertically and horizontally So nobody really can tell you exactly where the methane would be coming it could be coming from the north It could be coming directly underneath. It could be coming from the west east or south The prudent thing to do in Question that came up was well could you dig up all the soils and would the methane go away the answers? No, because you don't know where it's coming from methane that exists in soil strata again because there's no determined movement pattern it would be prudent to have a methane collection system associated with that and We did a project actually two projects Both police department projects, but the one that's the best comparison is City of Wauwatosa ten years ago has a methane collection system If managed effectively again, it's not a system that should be inordinately difficult to maintain It's actually a fairly simple passive system It uses simple products And it effectively removes the hazard that could exist in a building where we know that Organic methane type systems are are effectively managed and can facilitate the useful life of the building So again, that's that's I hate to say simple, but it's a fairly passive system It doesn't require somebody to be standing there watching a board with lights It's effectively used in public safety buildings previously and for over a decade and it can work effectively in the condition that we have here The second piece is cost and costs are related to both of these topics We are pursuing alternatives to the geopair design that might be more cost effective We're still studying those options, but if those Possibilities exist and we'll get hard numbers and bring those numbers back to the council for consideration We haven't given up on that or said that this is the best approach or least Least costly approach. It might be more effective ones. Yeah The cost estimate that we did was a median estimate So we are we are looking forward to having a number of competitive bidders that put together competitive prices to come below that estimate against a median estimate And we still have a full construction contingency remaining within the budget. So again We've bitten into the design contingency to facilitate some of the methane collection and soil conditions that we've encountered But that's what design contingency is there for we still are maintaining a full construction contingency And so we're we're expecting an active bid list and we're looking forward to that Opportunity on July 8th and continuing through August 2nd. Are there any questions? Thank you Just a couple of quick questions if I may mr. Sabin ash Looking at from an environmental standpoint, what is the worst case and best case scenario that we have to deal with now prior to The the or from the initial Environmental information nobody mentioned the m-word methane, but we found methane now people say well you should have expected methane It's a trash heap that produces. That's what we're methane comes from So to me that was a surprise Maybe to you maybe to other people's a separate to me was a surprise What where are we at with that square of dirt to know? To some degree of assurance that we have a handle on any future surprises Well when the I think when the northern study was done it was for petrochemicals methane is not a petrochemical It's not unusual to find methane, but I've also got examples where we haven't So it might lend itself to the discussion of that the methane is not coming from the site itself. It might be migrating We've had sites that have Substantially less compactive quality and don't have methane problems So methane is a gas that moves within a strata that may not have been defined by the site at all But might be affecting the site in terms of the geotechnical issues We've taken what we think is a responsible approach You never know exactly what geotechnical when they get the sheep's foot rollers out there Some things can give way and there might be some pleasant surprises as well So that's the risk and the reward attached to anything that's below the grade is as many soil borings as you do It's not a guarantee that every one of those soil borings is going to be representative of the best or the worst case scenario But we've run an awful lot of them and we have got a good handle on the nature of the soils We've come up with an approach that is adaptable and is sort of a middle-of-the-road approach So we could deal with some bad conditions and we could deal with the Opportunities that we find when we have good conditions as well and we're not giving up yet on The ability to have our geotechnical engineers work through alternatives. It might be less costly second question still lingering on the methane issue And perhaps it's not appropriate with your background to answer this but what types of Health hazards does this does this equip our employees with Well when using this building you talk about managing it can be effectively managed to be fairly easily managed, but My concern isn't the bricks and sticks. It's the people who's inside of it Given that we have a project that's been up and running for ten years. I think the system is great It's working and we don't have any of those side effects What we're trying to do within that system is it is a little bit like ventilating an attic We're creating a Stratta of perforated rock or perforated pipe and rock and we're spraying a liquid membrane over the top of that to provide the Mechanism that traps materials in that zone. It's got passive ventilation Meaning there's just open vents on one side of the building and then we're exhausting up at the roof So it's a fairly simple system I mean it may sound complex, but it's actually fairly similar to a lot of attic conditions that many many people have So it's effective at containing that material. We'll be taking additional precautions Wherever we have control joints, we'll be looking to caulk though So we get some resiliency in that joint So we'll put a belt and suspenders on the floor slab to make sure that we're doing as much as humanly possible to contain it But the membrane technologies and the like that have come up over the last ten years are far superior to what we have in a Building that's been around for ten years that we feel very comfortable with the ability to control it Thank you, Jim. Jim and is there any health? I mean a useful purpose for the methane. We're not out of part We won't have an eternal flame We're not out of parts per million that has high concentrations. We don't have a byproduct use Otherwise actually we're working on a project where it's proximate to a landfill and the county is looking at actually having Waste management pipe methane over to the building. We're not at that level It's it's small levels, but it's a level that again given the concern about the longevity of the building the People working in that facility. It's prudent to deal with it in this manner, but we're not generating I wish I could say that, you know, we struck oil or something like that and could fund, you know City resources for the coming decades, but that's not the case. Thank you Thank you, madam chairman Weren't the test boards taken out there about four or five years ago? Yes Weren't some of these details discovered at that point? The geotechnical issues soil conditions We knew that there were fill conditions on the site But presence of methane has to go through a testing process with probes and the like and I believe that was completed Was there any suggestion of read on gas none none? Thank you Thank you I Sorry council number Council agenda five fifty six committee met and discussed the issue of the community policing unit and the street crimes unit and the Request for a hundred and seventy five thousand be referred to the committee of the whole with a favorable Recommendation from the finance committee and that the police department maintain the community policing and street crimes unit at this time Is there a motion? Other than Vander wheel thank you, madam chair I'll make a motion to file this document and then I will with that I will take item number six and make a motion to accept and adopt That item because they're seeing that they're connected Okay, is there a second? Okay, we have a motion and a second to file both documents number five and number six under with To file with Approval right so do we have any discussion under this? Alderman bulk. Thank you, madam chair. Are we to receive any sort of presentation tonight? Is that later on the agenda? No, we will do that right away, okay? That's sort of tied to this though, isn't it so can we can we include that as part of the discussion? So you would like them to give their presentation now, please Officer Williams or chief perk who ever is giving the presentation please come up Yes Thank You madam chair. I did ask lieutenant Williams along with deputy chief shirvin to prepare some documents for this meeting tonight However, we are here to answer any questions Lieutenant Williams is the one who will and did present or prepare this presentation here tonight Also, I had some documents for the white paper if I would just share them with you before you leave here tonight It's some documents that pertain to the issue of Where I viewed as a team of Sheboygan where we're one department of many and if in fact some of the issues that arise As that did arise in a white paper that once Clarification has been made that perhaps as a team alderman department heads can speak out in support of Departments once clarification has been made. So at this point once again Lieutenant Williams if you could and I We only have one microphone. I believe Otherwise we can just move back and forth Yes, officer Williams, you could just clip could you clip on that mic and or is that going to work for you? All right, can someone flip the light stone maybe we'll be able to see a little better. Thank you Thank You madam chair council members I'm going to be giving a presentation about our our budget our overtime and Some possible fixes in the future I'm going to start off by giving you a little bit of a background as to how we got here today Currently there's 42 known gang members operating in the city of Sheboygan and in the past nine months The number of gangs has grown from 37 to 42 The amount of drugs coming into Sheboygan has steadily increased as evidenced by this chart which shows the drug incidents which have Resulted in arrest and if you look at 2007 right now We are on pace to at least equal or go beyond the number of arrests for drug incidents, which we had last year There's been an increase in the number of weapons we encounter on different complaints This is just a small picture of some of the issues the city of Sheboygan must address Our total number of arrest has continued to rise over the years How do we as a police agency and a city deal with these types of problems? Policing is done in two different manners reactive and proactive policing What is reactive policing? reactive policing Police respond to public calls for help Citizens will call and we'll respond to those and our citizen contact is almost empty Almost over other than the fact that we might get some statements from them and trying to assist and find suspects in these types Of complaints when we're not responding to public calls We're expected to openly patrol to deter any type of wrongdoing this type of policing is not really efficient And doesn't help solve future problems that are going on. This is a traditional style of policing a just the fax ma'am style of policing proactive policing With the assistance of citizens will identify threats to the community and target potential criminals this is done by analyzing Different information that might be available to us and using specialized units some of these specialized units are the community policing use unit Street crimes unit and a unit that we've been trying to get going which will target internet predators citizens With proactive policing Citizens and police work together to prevent crime reactive policing is The core of what we as police officers do we must maintain a sufficient amount Of officers on the street in order to perform reactive policing and when we have that met We can start doing proactive policing in order to address the concerns that the community has Reactive policing is not enough. We need to continue doing proactive policing Our table of organization calls for 91 sworn officers and 40 support staff currently. We're at 82 sworn officers We are nine officers down Support staff we are too short These positions were not filled because there was no money available or the position was unfunded at the time We have had one full-time officer position that has been unfunded Our operating budget for this year is At ten million four hundred three thousand dollars four hundred and forty one dollars of that 94.3% Constitutes personnel cost 5.7% is all the rest of the costs that are used in order to run a police department What are some of these costs personnel cost cover wages overtime Social Security FICA retirement Vacation etc the other operating costs that we have involved gasoline vehicle maintenance and repairs IS maintenance training ammunition Supplies telephones and interfacing systems with some of the other agencies that we have to work with So how do we get here today? Well number one Because of increases of cost of goods and new contract wages and increase new contract wage increases our 2007 budget increased by five hundred and forty thousand dollars However, the mayor and the council said we must maintain a zero percent increase in our budget Therefore, we needed to reduce our expenses, which was done by not filling positions This this created a shortage of manpower Now our overtime account has been artificially lowered in the past Previous mayors and councils have told us this is what your overtime is But they also knew it was not enough and they said they would cover that cost at the end of the year Mayor Perez told us we would need to stay within our budget our budgeted overtime because of this our Administration and shift captains brainstorm different ways to immediately Control these costs and the chief made the decision to suspend the community policing unit and the street crimes units Again, we must remember that we must first provide coverage on the streets for the safety of the officers and the citizens And so that we can respond to calls for help from these citizens The hundred and seventy five thousand dollars that we're asking for is just a short-term fix to the overtime budget that we have right now In 2008 our projected shortfall is going to be seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars if we remain a zero percent increase and Include the maintenance costs for the new building that's going to be built I'll talk about some of the overtime that we have here our budgeted overtime for two thousand and seven is three hundred thirty eight thousand Four hundred and ninety dollars as of May 31st two thousand seven our year-to-date overtime has been one hundred forty four thousand Three hundred and ninety four dollars if we continue at the current rate of overtime using two thousand and six figures and trend Our projected overtime is going to be five hundred twenty one thousand eighty seven dollars at the end of the year again A hundred and seventy five thousand dollars is only a short term fix for this problem But it is a necessary fix in order to continue with proactive policing We have started to take a closer look At where all the overtime is being used within our department Starting in April we have been keeping track of the overtime usage and this graph represents the overtime used in April and May by Patrol the three patrol shifts as well as CID criminal investigation division from this graph You can see the major portion of this is holiday straight time That is a contractual issue We are a twenty four seven operation and we're required to work all holidays And because of that based on contract officers are entitled to the pay for holiday straight time That is a major portion of this particular two-month time span The next biggest portion that you see here is investigative 15% and with the One on the holiday at 16% of our total overtime budget for that two-month period Yes, all the way all the way around Okay, if you look if you look on your handouts on the back Should be the third page right there's a handout where you should be able to read a little bit better Sure, okay The investigative nature of this To quote mayor Perez The police can't stop doing their job when eight hours come when we're handling a complaint times of the essence Evidence must be collected and we need to do the job until we can get that Situation resolved or at least to a point where we can continue with it at a later state later time for that reason we've got 15% of our Overtime is because of different types of complaints that we have to deal with now We as a police department have looked at that and we do not just automatically give overtime for any type of a complaint You're on we do review the types of complaints that come in and the type of investigation that needs to be done And then we will then allow the officers to continue overtime It is if it is one of those cases that need to get completed immediately or needs to have information over to the DA's office if it's something such as a Barking dog or a noise complaint or something like that that can wait till the next day. All right, but if it's a sexual assault burglary You know robbery something of that nature we need to do with that incident right now And we need to get all the evidence that we can possibly get at that time. So the investigation will continue Some of the other contractual issues Unfortunately, it's the nature of the job. We arrest people when we arrest people we have to go to court for the prosecution And because of that our call out for court purposes was 9.8 percent on the flip side of that If you look down at the bottom, there's court cancellations 2.3 2.3 percent of the court cancellations is another thing that we cannot control what that is many times the Defendants the suspects in these cases wait until the last minute To go through the system and then at the last minute They'll put a plea in and at that time we're given a notice that we do not need to appear in court This is partially contractual as well as many times we go to court once you're there They say you're not needed and you walk right back out Again, that's something that we can't control that's something at the DA's office or the the suspects have some control with their attorneys in one of the areas that Everybody seems to be concerned about is posted overtime if you look at the posted overtime Between the overtime and the holiday overtime it comes to 11 percent In the newspaper on Sunday, I saw that sheriff Helmke stated that His department has 10 percent posted overtime and they're fully staffed and we're nine officers down We are trying to do the best that we can in order to control these costs also keep in mind that when it comes to post it over time Some of the post it over time is for different festivals such as Greek Fest and and brought days Those costs are repaid to the city for our overtime Right now. We have overtime posted overtime because we are short on the shifts and we're short for various reasons Number one manpower shortages number two. We've got people that are out on on family leave or possibly Right now. I don't think we have any but on workman's comp But because of that we have posted overtime so that we can fill our shifts to a staff level that is safe for the officers as Well as being able to give the services to the citizens of Sheboygan Some of the other ones are just a little bit odds and ends special teams such as SWAT team dive team honor guard and Some of the other ones that would pertain to I put a handout in your list as well on some of the overtime use But the other where it says seven point five percent that pertains to travel time for training demonstrations probation registrations school functions and again this the the schools themselves pay a portion of the overtime for the school functions Which we are paying overtime on so we do receive some of that back Lieutenant. Thank you, madam chair. Lieutenant wins. Can you? Help me understand why we only have data for April and May and how this data might look different if we had a representative 12 months Sure We only have it for April May because we just started doing this in April Wow So unbelievable can this change? Yes, it can If you look at the holiday straight time this two-month period had three holidays three paid holidays in it If this were November and December this would look a little bit different. So this could change As we get more information and we're continuing to track this right now And the general overtime pot of money is about seven hundred thousand dollars a year And that's already for us. Yes No, sir, it's three hundred and thirty eight thousand dollars is what's budgeted for the overtime three thirty eight Yes, sir, and right now if we continue at the same pace we're projected to be at five hundred and twenty that roughly five hundred and twenty thousand dollars Okay, thank you Thank You madam chair two questions number one is My assumption correct that over time would tend to increase in the warmer months of the year That is correct because of the staffing levels that we have vacations and people out on Family leave or sick leave It does tend to increase in addition We do get busier during the summer when we generally tend to have less officers on the road the secondarily is It correct that this is my assumption That in paying overtime when you're asking officers if they're willing to take some extra hours as opposed to Directing folks assigned duty There's probably a mix of that both happen, but I think as you Tap folks for overtime often times You're asking the younger officers with less tenure to serve those hours first Which means you're paying a lower rate per per hour. Is that correct or not? Well, that's not necessarily correct when it comes to overtime issues like that. There is It is contractual and so senior officers get the first option to take the overtime And if they don't take it then the the the younger officers can take it So it is given to them with the option of taking it Thank You madam chair Lieutenant Williams you were quoted in the paper yesterday saying that hiring more officers is not necessarily the necessarily the answer Since new officers cost about seventy thousand dollars a year and it takes a few months to get them up to speed I guess my question is is that After the six tonight after the six to nine months if you were fully staffed or very close to being fully staffed That would do a lot to take away from your overtime demands once you got those new people on board Is that correct? It would take away some of the overtime demands, however Again a lot of it is contractual and with more officers out there doing more work You know the assumption is that they're going to be making more arrests So they may have to go to court as well. So you could see an increase in the court over time But on the flip side you would hopefully see a decrease in the posted overtime because you wouldn't need to have that Thank you the other if I may just the other issue is just because Some of the investigative Might be handled as well You may not have quite as much investigative overtime if we have more officers that are out on the street But that's always hit or miss you never know what you could get a big take the Landmark fire that was huge and not only did it take a lot of resources from the police department But from the fire department as well And that was one of the biggest reasons that our overtime has increased so rapidly this year because we spent a lot of man hours Working that fire as well as the follow-up investigation in that fire As far as I would just wish to add just a couple points to that as far as the overtime We want to make sure that you understand that just giving us more officers will not necessarily decrease the overtime because of some of these Court cancellations and things of this nature. It's it's not as simple as that yet at the same time one would assume Posted overtime would go way down then It certainly would The other point I'd want to make is it could be we could address proactive policing more if there's problems if we have more Officers out there. There's enough time for the officers to be just addressing Gang activities instead of just handling the complaints and handling the arrest they can proactively Attack some of those problems. So that would be the other issue as far as having having more officers out there Well, thank you Lieutenant Williams my question is I Think I've got a good handle on the problem in there. What are some of your solutions? What what would you like us to do as a counsel to? try to alleviate overtime To improve community policing To go after the the drug and the gang issues which are which are critical in our community What are some of your solutions? Where should we go? Okay? Well? What I have here is a slide We as an administration We have been brainstorming different ideas to help control the overtime and to get officers that we need both to apply reactive and Proactive policing techniques We need to do more than just reactive policing. We need to do proactive policing at this stage Some of different things that we have been looking at and again. These are brainstorming ideas. We do not have anything that isn't in a final Stage at this point. We're still trying to get some more ideas and learn how some of these things might work for us But the first one there is we are looking at adding either a part-time or a full-time Community service officers. This will alleviate some of the workload that officers have by handling some of the more Nonessential complaints such as maybe parking lot accidents or other minor complaints that they would be able to take care of Another area that we're looking at is volunteers or citizens Academy of graduates We have an individual that is looking with other departments that have these types of programs to see how it works within their departments And how they apply this I also want to keep in mind have everybody keep in mind here that we use numerous numerous volunteers right now These volunteers help our community policing unit through programs such as neighbors against drugs Triad and crime stoppers without the assistance of these volunteers right now these programs would not be running So we are already using volunteers in one sense And we're looking at other ways that we might be able to employ the help of volunteers or citizens Academy graduates Another area that we're looking at is cost-sharing within departments of the city Right now we need to pay from our budget For IS maintenance we pay them for their services We also pay DPW for some of their services or goods when we purchase from them however We have a radio technician that does numerous work for all the agencies within this city as well as some of the county And we're not getting paid for his services We also provide dispatch services for the fire department and the entire budget for the dispatch is coming out of the police Perhaps it's time that we have a cost-sharing within some of these other departments that might allow us to hire some more officers Another area that we're looking at is the transfer of duties upon retirement when an officer or supervisor retires We look at that position and see if we can transfer some of those duties to another person Possibly eliminating it or just a change of the types of duties that are that are being done Another area that we've looked at we talked about proactive policing and the need for analysis of the data that comes up We'd like to consider mapping analysis with engine engineering department with possibly some of their programs in order to assist us in our analysis of future crime trends Another area is an internal IS person Policing has changed drastically In the last 15 years and so much of it involves computers computer crimes And how we're going to obtain that evidence retain that evidence And we have a detective right now. It does quite a few quite a bit of work just on IS issues Perhaps we need to look at replacing that individual with the civilian that does IS Techniques and have a detective get back to doing detective work another area is Joint training with the county with a shortage of personnel and and and the issues that are going on It's very difficult for us to do in-house training because it requires you to have a An instructor there a trainer there as well And in some cases two or three trainers in order to do the proper training as well as getting officers off the road In order to do the training perhaps we can look at joint training with the county where we can share instructors between the two Departments in order to accomplish a little more in-house training And then lastly We have to consider a reduction of services if we're unable to Meet the needs right now If we can't get the people that we need out on the streets so that we can do just basic Reactionary policing that we need to start looking at a reduction of the services that are provided Just one one follow-up if you were to point to one department in the state Outside of Sheboygan that you view as a model in Utilizing some of these techniques to have a handle on their budget and at the same time maintain your high-level service Which departments do you admire? I? Unfortunately could not give you that answer, but perhaps the chief might be able to assist you with that As far as the departments around the state that I that I would look up to would be we're seeing lacrosse Appleton those three immediately come to to mind I would as I mentioned before I wanted to share some of the documents that I have and with those documents you'll see a comparison of Numbers of officers per thousand when you examine the police departments You'll examine or as you'll see price per capita of policing that it costs the city here I Think at this time is probably more appropriate that I speak on some of these issues I Mike you didn't or lieutenant willing to do a fantastic job in preparation However, there's a couple key points I would like to say and the key to the Sheboygan police department is a number of years back We went from reactive policing just strictly reactive to community policing problem-solving. We've been pushing that concept for years But we must understand that the patrol function within a police department is essential And that's the backbone many people say it's the backbone of police departments. That's very very true It is we need to make sure that the number of officers on the street are there so when the citizens call For service that we respond. We do not the last comment on on this chart here. It says red reduction in services We have heard from many alderman and the mayor that we do not want a reduction of services to our people and we are trying to do this Maintain the same level of service. However, there's a big difference between reactive policing and proactive policing Now we've gone away from reactive policing and that's a traditional model that needs not to go back to so with that We sat down and when we we started to analyze our overtime You must remember that years ago our overtime was was low it was it was low in the budget and it was It was intentional Because at the end of the year the money was there chief You do what you need to do. We will cover your overtime at the end of the year this year We were instructed to keep within our budget. I have to let you know that we came in with a zero percent budget We we can do this, but this will change some of the policing and we would get away from proactive policing To respond to reactionary policing and that's certainly not where we want to be There are we've sat down when we began to look at this We we took it very very serious and that's why you begin to see a real analysis of the overtime And where did this overtime go? I want to know why and I had all departments start to chart and We can share those those bits of information with you We just gave you a graph here But there's a lot of work that's been going into this to analyze where our overtime is going and some of it and a lot of it is Just contractual Obligations that we need to know or need to have a finger on so we can then look at what it has posted overtime Well, that's 11 percent of our overtime at this time. It's just posted now. Please remember We're down nine officers yet the Sheriff's Department. We're at 11 percent for posted overtime Yet the Sheriff's Department. That's full staff is at 10 percent for posted overtime So that's key. We're only using one more percent as percentages go and in overtime So when we began to brainstorm about some of these ideas Lieutenant Williams is absolutely correct. We do use a lot of volunteers already in the spoiling police department That's what community policing is all about that's what problem solving is all about that the police department does not handle the Problems by ourselves anymore. We act we ask others to get involved and help us solve problems It becomes a team approach to policing But as we began to brainstorm some of this we could use we we Or at least I dealt with LTC Lakeshore Technical College last year to start a program of volunteers or paid Part-time community service officers yet We had no money in the budget that time because they wish to be paid But we we thought the program would be a paid program We now look at possibly a use of a voluntary program of volunteers Yet my understanding and speaking with the city attorney at the very end of the year Lakeshore Tech for the Criminal Justice Association of the students where they would come from this pool of students They would ask for a small donation or a donation from the police department when we check in with the city attorney I can't make a donation as a police department. I cannot make a donation to a private entity yet if we deem this program appropriate Alderman Geisha, I believe you're the one who first brought up well the the common council could I mean we as a common council I'm not I'm not a common council member, but I Like this chair though But the common council could and we could get these programs up and running Years ago for for several under Mayor Perez and under Mayor Shram. We asked for a part-time More part-time community service officers. It didn't go through at that time, but that's another area that I believe we could expand upon There are other areas Short-term long-term Lieutenant Williams hit on the detective who's doing II s work He shouldn't be doing that in a perfect world. I yes should be doing it and some departments do that They have someone downloading all the video recorders and the tape tape interviews and things of this nature Keeping track of sex offenders things of this nature yet We have a detective doing that and we've been trying to transfer some of this to a secretary in our detective division So it's a more cost efficient Mapping of course, we believe mr. Horners could help us out with that, but now that needs their assistance and their their free time as far as a Municipal court we hope that perhaps we could charge back municipal court for the sergeant's time of Overtime that he's tied to Minnesota court if everyone would chip in a little crossing guards There's been talked that perhaps as the school resource officer program that crossing guards could be partially paid for by the school district I mean, it's it's a small amount, but it could be something one that I like that I don't think a whole lot of people like is Dispatch where our dispatch costs about a million dollars a year yet We dispatch for the fire department has been estimated at five twenty five percent of the time of dispatching for the fire department It's twenty five percent out of a million dollars. It's two hundred fifty thousand dollars now I know we're taking from one pot to pay another however two hundred fifty thousand dollars That's three officers that immediately I could place on the road And I'd say some of these concepts do exist now because we pay IS for maintenance and we pay IS for the Computers that we purchase so some of these are brainstorming ideas And I want you to understand and fully appreciate some of the efforts that have been going on with some of the people and some of the unions and some of the Members of the unions have sat at the tables with us to say listen That's really brainstorm come up with some some good ideas. So I have a couple alderman that have some questions here Alderman clay who nests your first. Thank you either Chief Kirk or ten at times And I have just a couple questions under seasonal on the table of organizational seasonal these are are these Employees officers who are they the seasonal that is crossing guards crossing guards. Yes, that's about right now It's approximately twenty thousand dollars of our Personnel cost. Okay, so we've cut down on crossing guards as well right now. We have I believe it's seven crossing guards, right? Okay, then there's another question When you said how do we get here? You said you had it for the proactive units were suspended What other units were considered in terms of cutting costs or was that just right away? That's the only thing you consider. What else would you have considered as maybe a place we could have cut costs? Other units, excuse me. We only have two other specialized units school resource officers and the drug unit school resource officers, I believe are Valuable to the point where we would not deem that to be looked at at this time hugely important in the schools The other one was the drug unit Certainly with the conditions in the city at the present time. We would not deem that to be looked at Is it and if I may just follow up on that that we did look at The other cost of operating the police department, which was approximately five hundred and ninety seven thousand dollars However, that's a very small amount when you consider running the entire police department But we did look at the cost of those things and if you look on the back sheet of the handout I gave you I did break down from our budget any dollar amount that was over one thousand dollars And those are large ones and if you look at the biggest one there hundred and thirty five thousand dollars for gasoline You know again, we're a twenty four seven operation If we start taking away some of these things, we're gonna have a very very difficult time doing our job out there Thank you, okay Holderman bulk. Thank you, madam chair Are we to receive any more information other than the spring storming tonight? Are we gonna see impact with? financials No, sir. This is the end of the presentation. Yes, sir I'm a big fan of community policing and I'm I like and respect chief Kirk But I am profoundly disappointed in the presentation being made tonight Please contrast what we're seeing tonight with what we saw from the Sheboygan fire department about a what two or three weeks ago a month ago There were detailed spreadsheets. There were there was a month of Conversations with the chief and his leadership Till eight nine o'clock at night every single weekend for four or five hours a weekend Conversations on scenarios chief. We don't believe you prove it to us chief. We still don't believe you prove it to us Chief look at this information. We're getting from the citizenry. They don't believe you prove it to us and This is what we get tonight. We the police department has come to the Common Council came to the finance committee With concerns of shutting down community policing got the city all up in arms. Don't shut it down. I I made the motion authorizing or Suggesting that we order them to continue operating as is and we'll find the money I was the one that that made that motion Under the good faith acting on a good faith that we would receive information on how we would save money not to vote Incremental dollars for that but how we would find that absorbed you have a ten point four million dollar budget And you can't find a hundred and seventy five thousand dollars. That's one point six percent of your budget That's a solve Families in Sheboygan businesses in Sheboygan every single day deal with 1.6 percent shortfalls And what I'm hearing tonight, and I could be wrong and I'm just profoundly disappointed But what I'm hearing tonight is no solutions. I don't see a single solution up there I see some ideas that haven't been thought out. I hear we need a hundred seventy five thousand dollars, and you better give it to us And I just want to establish my bona fides here I wore a uniform for 13 years. I spent eight months flying drug missions throughout South and Central America I love cops. I hate drugs, and I am I just can't believe this is what we're seeing I had a car blown up in front of my house a month ago You may recall this picture in the Sheboygan press with a car exploded in a residential neighborhood two doors down from a judge an acting city attorney Attorney in the city an acting alderman Member of the school board and the president of the chief and fire commission we have cars being exploded in residential districts and we The police department comes to us for a hundred seventy five thousand dollars one point six percent of our budget with no solutions I've asked for three weeks offered my help in analyzing the budget asked for it got no analysis got a printout We've got no analysis We have no new information tonight with which we can act when we reconvene in a council, and I'm very disappointed and I appreciate your time Madam chair Thank You madam chair I Echo a Lot of frustration That older person Foul brings up, but I guess I come from a little bit of a different angle on it that I would like to add My frustration comes from being here tonight dealing with a shortage that was More or less don't worry about it. We'll take care of it happens every year The money will come forth every year that is not prudent budgeting and not blaming you guys I'm saying from the city standpoint that's not prudent budgeting if we know it's going to be there Anyway, then it's just a funny little shell game with numbers for people to sit back and say we have a balanced budget We don't have a balanced budget or increases only this and this doesn't just go back for one year two years goes back many years It's my understanding this is kind of the the the knot and wink It's not fair to you guys to come back in and and grovel Sometimes it feels that way. I'm sure for a hundred and seventy five thousand dollars It's also not fair not to have dollar figures attached to brainstorming ideas. I'll give you an example From the Appleton Police Department Website they have VIP volunteers You're talking about volunteers and so forth working with almost every unit in the department They even borrow them to other city departments over 3300 volunteer hours donated taxpayer savings $60,000. I think if I don't want to put words in alderman box mouth, but I think that's kind of what he was looking for Okay, if we do this here's the savings or if we do this This is how we can not necessarily even savings how we can multiply our force factors in some ways example, Wisconsin Rapids Auxiliary Police Department 22 members unit donates thousands of hours Donates thousands of hours every year's myriad of events all the festivals the same festivals we have They're volunteering to do a lot of the work Picnics fireworks 4th of July's River Blues Fest, etc. Etc. The unit has the authority to write city ordinance violations and parking tickets besides and these are volunteers and I I If I can understand right you're saying there's a lot of ideas and thoughts out there and If I can act as mediator here a little bit the idea would be to take those ideas and thoughts and put them to numbers Otherwise we really do have nothing we have ideas and thoughts I said from the beginning with this additional request and I wouldn't vote for it unless we're fixing it We don't do this every year. So you guys don't have to do this every year So so the public doesn't have to go through this every year. It's ridiculous. We have to go through this every year It's a broken ugly rotten process that's unfair to you and I think unfair to the citizens and Either we have an honest budget up front where we know all the costs are in and we do it and go Or we don't have an honest budget up front and it's not your fault And chief knows because I called the chief I talked to the chief this morning And I came to his office and vented my frustration My frustration is not over the police department. Although I would like from an alderman box standpoint see More work put into results from some of these brainstorming ideas My frustration is over this process The the feelings between the police department of the council stinks the feelings between the council and the police department To some degree stink. How do we bridge this and break this log jam of distrust and and and skepticism I looked at Nina did a study of police operations and staffing what they did is they went to a third party intervener or or Almost like a Marshall situation Consultant I hate to use and I hate consultants just so we need another fifty thousand dollar Consulting bill but if that's what it takes to get everybody together to to move this forward to have a realistic So that it isn't you guys saying we need this amount of officers somebody Oh, the council saying no We think you can get by with this if we have a third party come in from a consulting situation and review this Then then we all know we stopped the argument right now I honestly don't see a way to break this log jam between the council and the police department Alderman both volunteered three weeks ago to come on in I know I've done the same thing I want to come in and be part of this process. I want to come in and try to help I don't I haven't been invited in I would like to be Work three o'clock in the morning if that's when the shift needs help to work on these processes but I would just like to see more involvement and more actual Examples such as volunteers taking away $60,000 in savings It's a frustrating frustrating situation or it has to be horribly frustrating for you guys Because I'm new at this and I'm dealing with a budget situation that I believe the budget was wrong last year It wasn't actually if you were told you're gonna get the money. It wasn't and the money isn't there It should have been in the budget last year I will not vote for this money again It's really got to be in there And we really have to be dealing with real numbers going forward and we really all got to get along and work out these Future opportunities and brainstorms because that it is it is ridiculous and unfair to the citizens of this council And to you guys not to have a real number in there So my first I'm sorry for my tone my frustration shows and Deputy Chief servant heard me this morning, too It's just a frustration over the process that must be blown up and fixed somebody's got to break this logjam of trust and get rid of the fear and That's where I'm coming from So is there a question in there? I'm not sure but maybe Maybe a comment from you guys would be helpful If you share the frustration or not. Yes, Chief Kirk As far as any presentation by a fire department If you look at this situation they they presented this five years ago and this Work that you say that was presented was five years in coming Now this budget Was months in coming this we addressed it. We didn't come to you asking for 175 We said we presented a zero percent budget. This is the way it is. This is where we are you want to find money? We we you look at our personnel account. We are a number of officers that we have not filled We covered five hundred forty thousand dollars that were increases for this year Of that 540 there is some issue with overtime the issue of overtime has always been here It's been artificially lowered over the years This year we were addressed that it will stay the budget is zero percent increase and we got to the zero percent increase As far as your neighborhood, there's a lot of different things that go on in a lot of different neighborhoods in this community I take pride in what our officers do. I take pride in the efforts that they're part of If you would have been aware of the activity that was taking place this weekend You would be very very honored by what our officers have done and accomplished this weekend If we were to stay at a zero percent increase We were going to run out of overtime by October as far as any other Documentation it looks as though we would probably be out of overtime earlier than that now as we see the numbers come in as far as as Flying missions over South America Alderman my family comes from South America my wife's family My brother-in-law lost his life in some of the same missions you speak of I Feel honored that you take great pride in that. I take great pride in the loss of my brother-in-law So thank you Alderman Manny Thank You madam chair. This is a simple procedural question There is some perception Periodically that perhaps there is some inefficiency in the way squads respond to complaints and issues and traffic stops Please chief explainer or lieutenant Williams explain the policy in squads responding in what circumstances Is it appropriate to have two squads versus one squad etc? As far as we we now have one Man squads or one person squads years ago when I worked streets. We had two vehicle or two man squads Depending on the type of complaint that you're responding to if there's concerns for officer safety We then send two squads if it's later in the evening and we send two squads for officer safety One is a backup unit to monitor what goes on when the other officer is writing paperwork or has his eyes off the squad Off the vehicles we maintain observation second vehicles a backup Years ago we could we could get by with sending one unit of course they had two people in it Some of the minor complaints one officer only responds to Thank You madam chair. I Think this whole discussion probably should be farther along than it is agreeing with both alderman bulk and alderman gisha I Think you know from what I've heard Behind the scenes that is not in this meeting this evening. There was some good brainstorming going on there were some great It great ideas out there Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like they've come any farther than the brainstorming stage at this time But I know one issue I look at you know We have court cancellations at 2.3 percent as a contractual issue, which I believe you know That's your union. That's something that came up in the union contract Where if it's canceled within 24 hours just because you were supposed to be there you get paid for it I mean, I think there could probably be some concessions in The future and on things of that sort I think the whole thing is a given take I do believe we need to use volunteers if we look at I know There's some maybe some state statutes that need to be Looked at but parade routes we have officers on every corner in the parade route standing by the barricade even though the street is closed For two to three hours And all of them are basically on overtime at that time because it's you know It's the holiday pay overtime thing etc. Etc. I think we need to look into this farther Than it has been and I think you know I believe an officer in a squad car on the street or in proactive policing is much more Valuable than an officer standing at a barricade on a parade route. I Think that there's a lot of things that can be done But they need to go beyond the we've got an idea stage and they need to be put to dollars like Alderman box said You know, there's there's There's there's got to be got to be some give and take on both sides I think there's some great ideas out there, but they need to they need to need to be put to paper And they need to be it needs to be discussed in an open manner Where you know the the mistrust can be put aside and we can get some real numbers. I mean it's Police department does a great job. I mean proactive policing is a lot more effective than reactive policing We don't want to go back to reactive policing Yeah, if we look at the safety of our city, it's not a perfect place But we're doing a heck of a lot better than a lot of other places and that's to the credit of our credit of our police police department But right now we are in some budgetary tight times We need to be inventive and we need to put these numbers numbers to paper Thank you Alderman Vanderwill. Thank you, madam chair Crime can happen everywhere. That's the part of society. We live in that's just the way it is today And and this is frustrating and that's one of the reasons why I've ordered against the budget last year to show my frustration that That something needs to change and and I agree with Alderman Keisha and and everybody who spoke tonight And what's also frustrating is the volunteering. It's a good idea. It's a great idea But in the last six years I've had we've had people Begging to volunteer and they were looked at as pests. They were just begging. Let me volunteer Show me what to do. Let me do it and they were looked at as we don't want to deal with it So maybe now we need to tell them. Yeah, we want your help. Maybe now this council needs to say, yeah Last six years forget about it. Now we want you to do it. Thank you Thank you Any further questions? Do you have any further comments? I would say certainly I would say once again, certainly we met with Alderman Hannah They spoke I spoke to Alderman Keisha today We certainly are willing to sit down and discuss these concepts. We still await Where the reorganizational committee finally puts us some of these decisions are sitting here waiting for some of this So as brainstorming has been the stage we're at right now. We certainly will move on with with these issues Okay, thank you Now we will move on to the motion to file with a favorable recommendation items number five and six Do we have any further discussion one last time? See none all in favor of filing say aye with a favorable Oops, sorry sit. We have a roll call all those in favor of I'll start over roll call Sorry to accept and file with a favorable recommendation the two items and that would be to Finance the hundred and seventy-five thousand Thank you, maybe so that we know exactly what we're voting on and so the public knows we're voting on me We should take five separate and then take six You want to separate them now? I think that'd be the best idea Okay, then we will vote. Do we need a motion to change your together I'll just make a motion to file RC number 510708 and is there a second and that is with a favorable recommendation Or you're canceling your original. I will then make a separate motion item number six, which would accept at the top okay so item number five is The RC 55010708 by finance and the motion is to file and we have a second Okay, we will do a roll call on this This one is to file the document yes Hannibal died Play with us Hi Motion passes moving on to number six. I'll make a motion to accept and adopt the RC We have a motion to accept and adopt the RC and we have discussed this So moving on to the roll call vote on this also when you know a second sorry We have a motion and a second. I don't do we have to further discuss? I think we've discussed this Follow me Manny Thank You madam chair. I'm going to vote against this Based on the premise that until we know where the money is coming from I don't think it's a responsible action and That's the explanation for my vote I'm in bulk Thank You madam chair again. I intend to vote just because I don't have enough information Again, I hope it's clear and I hope there's no misunderstanding Admire the police can't wait to work on them and understand it better So we can make sure that those community policing programs don't go away, but I'm going to need to vote no on it tonight, too Thank you. Holderman Heidemann. Yes Thank You madam chair. So if we vote no on this It's basically just goes right back to finance and the police department is going to come back to finance and ask for another 175,000 dollars correct Maybe let me hit Hold them in Ryan Yes, I'm going to vote yes for this as as a short-term fix as a short-term fix with With the understanding and the the confidence that this council and the police department will get together before the next budget and Solve this problem with some real numbers Okay Hold them in born. Thank you madam chair I'm going to vote for it for the same reasons as all as alderman Ryan Also on the on the RC that we have in front of us on the reverse side It does say that this is going to be coming from the general fund finance department interests and investments That's where the 175 will be coming from Just to clarify that alderman man if that clarifies Your comment Thank you Hold them in Vander wheel. Thank you madam chair. I just want to make it clear that That the police made a decision to cut community policing to make their zero percent budget There was some 60 some letters that went to finance that generated this document The police never asked for the money So if we vote no of the council votes no, then we'll just community policing will be cut that that's all The police won't I don't believe they'll come back and ask for the money. They're just won't be community police So this was generated directly from the citizens that that asked finance for help basically Okay, thank you Alderman wangaman Thank You madam chair. It is of course a temporary stopgap fix and It's a necessary stopgap fix I think and I agree that the relationship between the police department and the council Stinks and something has got to be done. This needs to be straight now that we shouldn't have this we should we should have a real Dialogue going back and forth at all times and As alderman bulk said he wore a uniform for 13 years I wore one for 28 years and I did my service here on the streets of Sheboygan So I have I'm well aware of what's going on out there things have changed of course, but Something has to be done, but I'm going to vote yes for us a stopgap fix and I'm hoping and That this Situation won't keep presenting itself that this doesn't become a yearly Ritual that we dance around in circles and try and get this thing straightened out Thank you. Thank you Alderman mani Thank You madam chair I simply want to direct a comment to Alderman Warren and say thank you for redirecting my gaze to clarify my mind So I do know where the dollars would be coming from in the short term and therefore I will be supportive of the motion Hold them in month to mayor Thank You chairman Meyer There's lots of information this evening. I'm just as another point of information I've been reading some newspapers from 1986 and 1987 the exact same words the exact same players you could change the names of the mayor you could change the date It's all over again. This is not new. This has been going on a long time a long Long time. I think it is time to solve the problem Thank you Alderman Gisha Thank You madam chairman. I agree I've talked to previous mayors going way back and and this Rotten situation exists way back then and I I thought long and hard about this. I mentioned earlier I would never vote for this again Because there should never be a need to vote for this but I'm going to roll the hundred and seventy five thousand dollar dice that there's a window of opportunity here of Mutual trust and respect that could be nurtured and that the doors can be opened and maybe I'm an idealist And I'll get it slammed in my face But I I like these guys and I think they're willing to To make a gesture here in a move here, and I'm gonna I'm gonna bet a hundred and seventy five thousand dollars on it Is what I'm gonna do now This is a complete change in history such as Alderperson Montemay or mentioned going back many administrations But I'm personally betting the cash That that something can be worked out and and I'm not this is not political grandstanding I will never vote for a measure like this again that is not a quantified or or do this again next year come July or August Just will not it is not prudent. So my intention is is for hope and My vote yes is for hope that everybody can come to the table and work together rather than the Skepticism that currently exists. Thank you. Thank you Okay We will move on to voting on item number six to file with a favorable recommendation And I vote would be to file a nay would be not accepting it And I would like you roll call on this I'm sorry, madam chair. I just want to explain the motion was to accept and adopt so We'll be in filing. I just think it'll be a recommendation to counsel to accept in it I'll say born I Well, no Yes, sir. I Hannah I Play on this No Ryan Vanuwil Wongerman nine eyes three nose Motion carries Moving on to item number seven RC number eighty oh seven oh eight by city county shared services June from June 18th 2007 council agenda number six sixty one your committee to whom was referred the task of studying possible shared services with the county submits the findings of this of a study of the combined joint dispatch the city county shared services committee Unanimously supports combined dispatch and request consideration from the common counsel Madam chair because of the importance of this issue and I think the amount of discussion that has to go into it I would move to hold this document and tell hopefully Hopefully a July 9th committee of the whole meeting I've taken the liberty to call Gary maples who was not who was a member of the shared services committee Who did the power point presentation that we have with the documents and mr. Maples? Tentatively told me if you see fit the call of meeting on July 9th that he would be available to do this power point Presentation which takes about 30 to 35 minutes. I've seen the presentation actually twice It's it's very impressive and then he's he opens up Opens it up for questions and I think lieutenant reinfeldt if she could attend that meeting Her input would be very veiled very very helpful on this Lieutenant reinfeldt today was kind enough to forward two more documents that we do not have in our packet and one of the contentious items that may come out of this presentation is the recommendation for communication senator center shift supervisor and then a center Manager and she was kind enough to forward me the job descriptions which are not in this report And I think both of those job descriptions are going to need some discussion and also There was a letter from david sleeter that was not included with our packet today and mr. sleeter is the director of Rock County the janesville area communications director for that center and he critiqued Mr. Maples Presentation and I also think if the council had a copy of this it would be very helpful for those reasons I would like to hold this for a future meeting where it could give be given due diligence and we have a second Did you still wish to speak Hold them in Vander wheel thank you ma'am chair Thank you old member and I was going to make that motion for the same reason I was going to ask ma'am chair to contact Gary maples for the PowerPoint. So thank you and um I just wanted to state my opinion I think we need to decide if we're if we're going to go forward with this before we talk about Job descriptions and positions and things like that. Thank you. Okay. Thank you. So we have a motion in a second to hold Item number seven under discussion Thank you, Hannah. Thank you. I've had the opportunity to see the presentation and Gary maples does Excellent job And I do think it would be valuable for all members of the council to see it They they don't tell you specifically what one recommendation they would support They give you some very good choices and choices that would allow us to Work together with the county in every single case. So I think it's worth seeing the presentation Unfortunately, every alternative comes with a price tag Alderman clang onus. Thank you chairperson. I agree with all that's been stated I think it's a great report. I was surprised at how advanced Their suggestions were in terms of how far down the road they went and I think it it does take some time I think again that the city would be attuned to this a little bit some press coverage on it Things like that. I think that would all help people to be more informed more interested and we're building a police station the police station has a role to play in this and I think we got to have a kind of clear as to how what role it will play in the future dispatch Decisions, so I think it's great. Thank you and seeing that the chairperson of the county shared services Alderman Verhasselt is not here this evening I'm sure he would have a lot of information to share with us So I agree that we we should probably hold this issue any further discussion See none all in favor say aye. Hi chair votes aye opposed motion carries Moving on to item number eight RC number three nine nine oh seven oh eight by finance council number 2052 your committee to whom was referred our own number four two six oh six oh seven by the city clerk submitting a communication from older person born attached Attaching an article regarding taxes are high stating that the property taxes in Wisconsin are the nation's highest in Proportion to the value of owner occupied homes According to a national study recommends that the report of officer be referred to the committee of the whole of the new common council Mr. Born Alderman born would you have some further information on this? I would make a motion to file the document but under discussion I would like to cover a couple of things in the article. I'd make a second Okay, we have a motion and a second to file under discussion Alderman born. Thank you Originally, I forwarded this article to the finance department of last year's council and It kind of piqued our interest in finance. So that's why I thought I would ask for a referral to committee of the whole Just to quote a couple things in the article property taxes in Wisconsin are the nation's highest in proportion to the value of owner occupied homes Using data from the United States Census Bureau the tax foundation based in Washington DC found that in 2005 medium property taxes on owner owner occupied homes in Wisconsin Where two thousand seven hundred and seventy seven dollars or one point eight two percent of the median value of such property? The highest such proportion in the nation the taxes were 4.79% of the median income for home for homeowners number five number five nationally the foundation found What's driving the high property taxes in Wisconsin is covered on the other side in The two things that are driving property taxes representatives of local governments say that property taxes on homeowners are high for two Reasons little flexibility on their part to raise money from other sources and the amount of tax exam property Wisconsin is woefully pathetic in terms of offering local government Tax or fee options to lower local property tax according to Ed Huck from the Wisconsin alliances of cities Huck said one way to deal with this would be to allow local governments to impose fees to pay for services Not only would that provide another source of revenue. It would also cover properties that are now exempt Are now exempt from tax such as non-profit organizations and many business properties Back when we had the stormwater fee one of the reasons that I personally and reluctantly Supported the stormwater fee. I wasn't on the council at the time But I let my alderman know I supported it was because this was a way to get the non-profits i.e. the hospitals The YMCA and a number of the other non-profits and unfortunately included those were the churches But at least it gave us an opportunity for revenue that now that the stormwater fee is being phased out We are no longer going to be able to get that revenue Over the years special interests get or retain tax exemptions often those exemptions are broadened after passage and a recent court decision about taxation of pollution control equipment that May remove millions of dollars of industrial property from the tax rolls Taxes not raised from that property are paid by others including homeowners. So again Not being able to raise Fees from some of these these tax exempts is one of the one of the huge problems We face this has been on the plate of the Wisconsin Alliance of cities for at least five or six years and of course it has to happen in Madison where these laws have to be changed So I guess you know we have to lobby the people in Madison to make these changes But I just wanted to bring it to the attention of the taxpayers in Shubwagon. Why our property taxes are high. Thank you Thank you Alderman Hannah. Well, thank you. I shared a study today with with mayor Perez on on hospital taxes There was a recent study done for the Institute for Wisconsin's future and this really confirms what all the person Born has been saying 95% of Wisconsin's hospitals are not for profit compared with a national average of 60 There are 109 Tax-exempt hospitals and medical centers in Wisconsin with the total property value of six billion If these hospitals and medical centers were not tax exempt Local government statewide would have collected an additional 70 million based upon 2005 Tax numbers keep in mind that the tax exempt status of those Antities was back when hospitals primarily served the poor Things have changed Thank you. Oh old man born Just to expand a little bit on what alderman Hannah was saying And again not necessarily pick on the hospitals, but they are multi-million dollar corporations What what we should be asking the state legislature to do is allow cities like Shubwagon to collect A fee in lieu of taxes for their fire protection Their police protection and the public work such as of pawing of snow in front of their establishments We are not asking them to pay the school portion of the property taxes They would be exempt from that But at least and just think of the for example if we were getting two or three hundred thousand dollars from our local hospitals That's a number of police officers that that we could put on the streets and right now In Shubwagon and all over the state Cities are not being reimbursed for services that we are providing to these nonprofits and You know if if we could at least get them into the legislature to allow us to collect the fees It would be a tremendous help to cities throughout the state Okay, thank you Seeing no more lights on we will vote on filing item number eight All in favor of filing say aye Chair votes aye Opposed motion carries Moving on to item number nine rc number 509 or 607 by the committee of the whole council agenda number 25 59 by the committee of the whole recommending referral of documents submitting a communication from alderman born With an article entitled cities should be more diligent about financing tool Alderman born Thank you, madam chair This this item on the agenda number nine and also number 11 I would also like to hold for a future committee of the whole meeting Not as urgent as the other item we have on hold the reason for that is as I talked to rich gebbhart And I wanted rich gebbhart and paul enters paul it enters to do a presentation On you might say the ins and outs of tis tis tiff districts And I asked a couple questions when I had originally sent this article does sheboygan have a policy on tiff funding, etc Surprisingly right now. We do not have a policy on tiff funding A specific policy however paulette was going to be looking at some other communities around the state and around the country And get back to the finance committee, but I would and paulette I believe is out of town around vacations So she was not able to be here tonight So I if I would like to hold these documents for a future committee of the whole meeting where both paulette and mr. Gebbhart could do a little more in-depth Informational on tiff districts for the benefit of the council. I think it would be invaluable Well, there's a motion and second on the floor to hold items number nine and 11 Any further discussion? Seeing none all in favor say aye. Hi chair votes aye opposed motion carries Moving to item number 10 RC number 5520607 by short short term committee on employee remuneration council agenda number 2669 your committee who met and as per resolution number 2580607 Studies the total cost of labor to the city with the cost of labor in the private sector and is submitted in their report Alderman mani would you have some comments on that? Yes, I would and I'm writing the danger of saying too much or too little here There's much involved and I will try to summarize as opposed to reading this word for word I read it word for word. We're going to be here a long time Although it isn't that extensive, but for the educational purpose. Let's see if I can quickly summarize About a year ago this committee was formed and we got active and directed ourselves to the cost of labor in the city And comparing that with labor costs in the private sector The hope was also to have costs not only current ie 2006 But also costs With some historical perspective Perhaps cost five years ago and 10 years ago If we had those studies side by side, we would see clearly trends That would be helpful for us as a council and as a city to see in fact where the costs were going where they've been We did contract after much discussion with a private corporation research firm In walk ashore to provide us information from the private sector that we could not Secure on our own there was some cost to that that was authorized in august of 2006 In working together with people from Bemis manufacturing company sheboygan falls They're human resource folks and our human resource people here in the city and on our committee We came up with 15 job job categories that would be used for the basis of comparison Those were categories we deemed most helpful and direct In the comparison efforts I won't give you the those exact positions. I don't think that detail is is information which City residents watching will will remember anyway Um In that comparison we had to do a little bit of finesse work Because in fact we have exact data for city employees Their length of tenure Their salaries As well as their job classifications The information that came to us from mra about the private sector Did not give exact tenure of positions Because they were working with with many companies and many employees And so they simply gave us percentiles 25th 50th and 75th They gave us also information Relating to the size of corporations 5 to 900 employees geographical location North's east central is that which we chose to look at as that reflects our geographical status And so those were the categories of comparison then that we chose to use as we deemed them most Most adequate in attempting to get some sort of Clear picture on costs In relationship to the private sector With that work in hand and with other data that we tapped in the area of benefit costs from the national labor Bureau I forget the exact name at this point I can get it for you if you want it These were the conclusions that we came up with And simply going to give you some detail in fact and then Some more summary kind of conclusions We found that those in the city That were paid a salary that is less than that in the private sector included The auditor analyst About 9.6 percent less The accountant about 5.3 percent less Programmer analyst one about 3.2 percent less Superintendent of buildings electric and vehicle maintenance About 16.7 percent less And information systems manager about 5.5 percent less The electricians we deemed were paid on the par with the salaries That electricians are being paid in the private sector Then the following categories were positions we deemed that are paid More than the salaries paid in the private sector Janitor municipal service building 18.7 percent higher Clerk typist wastewater treatment plant 5.6 percent higher Maintenance person crafts and buildings craftsmen and buildings 7 percent higher Park caretaker to 10 percent higher Administrative assistant to the mayor 9.2 percent higher The department secretary for the police 25 percent higher The secretary for finance and purchasing 22.7 percent higher One position we deemed We would not be well able to make a conclusion because of particularities in relationship to privacy concerns And that was the office supervisor for the police department We qualify those analyses and comparisons noting That we're dealing with concrete particulars in the city Versus categories and percentages in the private sector So we deem our conclusions Accurate in their direction But we suggest that we want to claim a 5 percent margin of error as a realistic kind of picture surrounding our comparisons We found further that in relationship to costs with health care And such that in the city we have those costs exactly in hand And the health care costs for dental health care and drug costs constitute 26.5 percent of the employee's compensation Whereas in the private sector Um Those same categories of costs for health care dental and drug costs total 15 percent Of private sector employees salaries Further it's important to note that in comparison of the benefit categories City employees in 2006 paid either 2.5 or 5 percent of their basic health care costs Depending upon which bargaining group they are a part of Noting we had no hard data from the private sector to use in comparison We do note that city costs for benefits now total 51 percent of employee salaries Helpful comparisons are that Such costs for the county reach now 53 percent And by way of city comparison the costs in the city of manatee walk for employee health care Benefits total benefit costs are 40. I'm sorry 54 percent According to the united states department of labor bureau and labor statistics The cost of benefits in the private sector totaled 29.3 percent of total employee compensation That's september 2006 data report released 12 1306 Uh, we note that that data does not note any regional variances Nor does it note a distinction between companies which pay medical benefits and those which do not Thus in conclusion Noting these conclusions from 2006 data That one of 14 job job categories in the city Is paid a salary which is commensurate with that paid in the private sector This is 7.1 percent of job categories evaluated to The one job category in the city that seems to be paid a salary above that paid in the private sector But about which we are unwilling to make a conclusion Is the same percentage one of um 15 categories thus 7.1 percent Us a 14 7.1 percent seven of 14 job categories in the city Are paid a salary which is higher than that paid for comparable private sector jobs This is 50 percent of the categories evaluated In five of 14 job categories in the city are paid a salary which is less than that in the private sector 35.7 percent of the job classifications That's basically it. I do note that the statistics that we worked with Were basically averages of those statistics from both the companies of 500 to 900 employees And those in the east central region One member of our committee would have preferred using just east central stats I laid those out for him also and there was very little variation But his preference would have been to use that and that person is dick sitamen Who worked for the state in human resources and job Categories and classifications for many years So that is the report The key differences are obviously the cost of benefits city versus private And the note that uh, there is a greater number of city, uh jobs that are higher paid In the lower classifications And that are higher paid personnel by and large are more on a par or sometimes below the salaries paid in the private sector Discussion Thank you. Alderman mani and with that I would entertain a motion to accept and file Second Need a motion Okay, we have a motion and a second to accept and file under discussion Alderman bulk Just to thank you madam chair a quick question for alderman mani It sounds like it wasn't possible to do a comparison of both salary and benefits Was that not because of the the way it was constructed because I worry that some people might say oh I'm getting you know, I'm not getting a good deal on my salary But when you take the package as a total that it might be more favorable. Was that not possible? Yeah, that was not possible because we had had no hard data To deal with in the benefit area the reason being as you know, uh benefits are so diverse In the way they're offered That to interpret all of that minutia Leads to highly highly uncertain conclusions. We did take from mra the simple percentage That 15 percent Of those basic health care costs health dental Those three that I said Okay, but that's that's the differential to the city. That's the important one to note. Okay. Thank you Alderman Ryan. Yeah, I'd like to uh commend Alderman mani and his uh committee Those are some some real numbers that we're dealing with there and I'm sure there's a lot of work that went into it um I as alderman bulk said uh the benefit package I think for city employees is a big part of Other total compensation And then that should be noted. Uh, even though their their salaries may be on par the benefit package far exceeds That of the private sector But it's a good job. Thank you Thank you Alderman gisha Thank you, madam chairman. I also express uh, thanks Uh for this report, uh, I think I differ slightly with alderman ryan on the interpretation Uh Of everything being kind of on par 50 percent of our salaries are higher than the the private sector Currently with the city 50 percent If I understand your data correctly Compounding that that in itself may be okay If you had a company or a popcorn stand or whatever happened to be that 50 percent of your people are higher and 50 percent are lower okay but when A full 51 percent of city salaries are benefits As compared to 29.3 percent in the private sector It makes that whole everything's kind of equal when it all washes out really go right to cleveland because you are in deep yogurt With 51 percent of salaries compared to 29 percent of salaries Deep because guess what rises faster than those pay numbers cost of health care So uh, I commend those numbers and I hope it's a report that doesn't End up collecting dust someplace because that's that's real life data and real real dollars attached to those percentages. Thank you Thank you alderman clayhunis Thank you chairperson. Uh, that's my thing is what's going to happen with this report Uh, this is a great work and a lot of work in it. Uh, we're passing it along to salary and grievance. Where is it going? I mean, I think maybe that's you know, we moved the file and then it's in the record, but it's nowhere Um, is that is any suggestion as to what to do with report? Alderman hannah. Well, I certainly know that the insurance committee has taken it to heart and we are Talking to several people realizing that the benefit package Uh, is is clearly a high expense item And we're hoping that it's an area that we can perhaps save money going down the road It's clearly where we want to invest our time and energy because it is such a big component and All the person's many's report was was excellent directing us that way Okay Alderman ryan Yes, I'd like to thank uh Alderman fishf for providing me with some new substitute language that now I can use being being the word yogurt Alderman montemayor Thank you chairman mayer I just wanted to say it again for if every $50,000 salary or wage That we pay that the citizens of who live in the city limits of shabuigan For every $50,000 wage or salary it costs the taxpayer Over 75,000 Thank you Alderman mani Thank you. I just want to make one comment to uh soften The comparison that alderman gisha made there for a moment don't latch on a 29 point whatever percentage that is as an exact Number even though it comes from the the nation and labor bureau because that includes companies that pay no benefits And some some in some measure it needs to be upward For a real-life comparison of those people who are working for Private um corporations that provide benefits. So just to keep that in mind. It's not a hard and fast number. It's a trend Significant as the difference is Thank you Alderman wangaman Thank you madam chair I do wanted to thank alderman mani Alderman mani There's a lot of numbers here to digest I think there's even enough numbers here to satisfy alderman balk And I do hope there's a lot of detail there. He's he's far better at these Managing these numbers than I am. I let my wife handle the checkbook because I have trouble adding two and two But I consider it's a tremendous amount of work to be uh that was done here and I I hope that uh This document is looked at and used as a guidepost for us in the future Because I think there's uh, I do hear it from the people out on the streets too. They they wonder about the seemingly Large benefit package our employees get but uh, these are all things that need to be looked at over the long run Thank you. Thank you Alderman heideman. Yes, I do. I want to thank you for your work alderman mani again Um, the importance of this document just to file and not use Doesn't make any sense. Why would we put so much time and effort into that work? To let it just go away There's got to be some other place that we can possibly use this document I mean and keep it alive So that people though our constituents don't think that while they did all this work, but now they're not thinking about it anymore Thank you And I I believe that Alderman hannah covered that that this is not just going to be thrown in the trash They are definitely using this as a guideline for their committee Alderman vander wheel. Thank you, ma'am chair. Um, just in case there's any confusion There's been a lot of talkable file and trash the motion was to accept and adopt Thank you Alderman mani. Thank you one last comment Um This will be in ed serks hands and salary and grievance and certainly a resource for him is ongoing salary negotiations occur also, uh I would intend that we use this as one of the bases Through which by resolution to approach senator lipo and their representatives and ask them to use this kind of data as they discuss state guidelines And law in relationship to Mediation and arbitration between municipalities and unions Currently state law is stacked against cities Because it's simply based on comparables in the public sector It has nothing to do with any economic issues going on in the private sector Until that equation and that discussion is broader and includes more economic Issues in the broader societal context. I think the law is is disruptive of of city governments And does not then serve the public good. So before long, I'll be bringing a document to council to that end Thank you, and I too. Thank you. Alderman mani for all your hard work and I know you do excellent work. So With that We have a motion to accept and adopt Any further discussion See none all in favor say aye. Aye chair votes. Aye opposed motion carries And we are down to number 12 There's a motion and a second to adjourn under discussion See none all in favor say aye Chair votes. Aye opposed motion carries. Thank you all for coming tonight