 Okay. Hello, everyone. Welcome to this meeting of the Community Preservation Act Committee on November 30, 2023. I'm calling the meeting to order at 6.02 p.m. We're meeting remotely via zoom, which is permitted by the town and state. The meeting is being recorded and will appear on the town of Amherst CPA website under the right hand side under recordings. I'm going to call on people so that we can be sure that we can hear you and you can be heard committee members. So I'm Sam McLeod, Katie. Greetings, everyone. Michelle. Present. Hi. Tim. Present. Matt. Present. Doug. Present. Bob. Present. Robin. I'm here. Can you guys hear me or see me? We can hear you. Okay, good. Wonderful. And David Williams is not able to attend. Tonight's meeting. He communicated to Holly and me previously. He's out of town and occupied with the conflict. We do need someone to take minutes for every meeting from our committee. Does anyone wish to volunteer to do so for this meeting? She's a jeopardy music. I see a hand from Katie. Katie. Thank you so much. I'll do them next time. Sam, I promise. Thank you, Bob. There's sometimes there's a strategy as to when to choose to do the minutes. Some are more complicated than others. I see Katie not. And Robin and Tim were aware of that as well. So. We have an agenda that's been posted and communicated to the town and on the town calendar. The first order of business on our agenda. Is to approve any outstanding minutes. We do have minutes from the meeting of November 16th. We have minutes from the meeting of November 16th. That were communicated to all in the packet. And I had sent a couple of minor edits to Tim, which had been incorporated. I'd like to open it up to the committee members in case anyone has. Any edits or comments on the minutes that they wish to communicate. Sam, I didn't get what you sent me, but if they're just minor, that's fine. Okay. Well, I believe I had edited, made the edits and sent them to you and, or to Holly and CC you will check on them. It was okay. Well, that's fine. I have no problem. I just wanted to. Just make that clear. Okay. Thank you. I'll double checked to make sure that I. Didn't send it to an incorrect email address, which is always a possibility. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. We're seeing or seen any raised hands from. Committee members regarding the minutes. Sorry. I'm just looking at my draft. The only change I had was under public comment for the pickle. I had Pat somebody or other. I didn't have the last name. Maybe that's one of the edits you made. It was okay. Great. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Absolutely. And after there was one other edit. I think the third edit that I didn't send to you was we started at 602. Instead of 605. All minor. Okay. And so thank you for sending the clear minutes to us. If there's no additional comments from the committee members on these minutes. Would anyone like to make a motion. To approve the minutes. As amended. Okay. We have a motion and a second to approve the minutes. November 16th. 2023 as edited as amended. I'll proceed with a roll call vote. Unless there's any discussion. Not seeing any discussion. I will vote. Okay. I'm going to stay in since I wasn't present. Michelle. Hi. Tim. Hi. Matt. Hi. Doug. Hi. Bob. Hi. Robin. Hi. And David Williams is absent. We have a public comment. Next item. And we have a public comment. If there's any favor. One. Abstention and one absence. The next. Item on our agenda. Is public comment. We have a public comment. Section on every. Meeting. We also are going to have a public hearing comment section. Communicate for any statements they wish to make related to CPA in general or anything that relates to what we've been discussing in our meetings. I'd like to call on the attendees of this meeting to raise your hand and I see one hand raised currently. I'm sorry, Sam, if I could just interrupt for a second, somebody has got some feedback and some background noise. Can somebody check their microphones? I'm hearing a lot of feedback on my end. Thank you. Sorry. Thank you, Polly. So again, I'd like to invite attendees and community members to participate with any public comment that they wish. I see a hand in the audience from Carlos Toriago. Holly, can you bring Carlos into the meeting or have an option for him to communicate with us? Yes. Hang on one sec. There we go. I see his hand raised. His microphone is currently on mute. You're ready to speak Carlos. The floor is yours. Thank you for joining us and participating. We are here to listen to what you have to say. I think that was a technical mistake. I'm not planning to say anything yet. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, there may be an option for you in your zoom meeting to lower your hand in the lower portion. So this, thank you Carlos. I guess we can return Carlos to the attendees list. We have a number of audience members who are listening to the meeting. And if any of the attendees wish to make a public comment at this time, please raise your hand. You also have the ability to call in or I don't see the chat option here, although I think it exists. If for some reason we miss somebody due to technical capacities. And you find a way to reach us at a later point in the meeting I will accommodate your wish to speak. I do see a hand raised here from Pam Rooney. Holly, can you bring Pam into the meeting? Hi, everybody. This is Pam Rooney speaking. Thank you for joining us. Thank you for letting me join you. I have not often been able to participate in your meetings mostly because of the timing of them. And I do not need to join as a panelist that's fine. I just wanted to say thank you to everyone. I have been following at a distance as your liaison to the town council. And I appreciate very much the time and consideration that goes into these decisions. I think the council looks forward every year to these very in depth and very thoughtful reports coming from this or this committee. And how to spend dollars that are in addition, obviously, to what we deal with in our operating budgets. It is such a treat to have this fund available to create really special opportunities in town that otherwise don't get addressed. So thank you. I'm not going to interfere with your process here. Just want to appreciate your contribution. Thank you, Pam, for making your comments today and also for your ongoing availability as our liaison. I appreciate it. I know you and other council members are extremely busy. But thank you for your comments. And of course, anytime there's a desire to say something you're quite welcome to join us in the meeting. Is there anyone else in the audience who would like to make a comment? Please raise your hand if you wish to. I do not see any raised hands. I'll wait a minute. Last meeting took a little while for a few community members to gain access to the meeting. I certainly want to give them what it wishes the opportunity to speak. I could probably be removed from the, from the display here. Holly, are you able to accomplish that? Yep, I'm sorry. So the first presentation is for 615 with the Emerson historical society. So I'm going to end the public comment section. Thank you for those who participated. And Amist historical society is presenting regarding the accessibility and existing conditions study is, let's see who's in the audience. The application was submitted by a group including Gigi Barnhill. I see Simeon Strong. That's me. Welcome. And I see. Alyn Tierney, if I pronounced that correctly in the audience. Correct. So thank you for joining us. And maybe it. Liz Larson, maybe there as well. I'm not seeing Liz Larson present. Well, she'll be along. I don't know if she joins. We keep an eye out for that. And I welcome your. Presentation we're, we're listening the floor is yours. Okay. Thank you very much. And I would just like to echo Pam Rooney's. Expression of gratitude. I too thank you for all of the time you devote to the work of this committee, which I know is. Enormous and it is essential really to the qualities that make us all proud to call Amherst home. Tonight I want to give you some background on the proposal of the Amherst historical society to see pack. Beginning in 2019, the historical society took time to undertake some strategic planning through a program offered by the American Association for State and local history. It's known as steps. The full title is standards and excellence program for history organizations. The trustees went through this rather involved process and fulfilled requirements for most of their most of their program. What we did not accomplish though was the fourth goal, which concerns the stewardship of historic structures and landscapes. We truly need a full, fully professional and careful analysis of the building to make sure that it's around for another century or more. And to attack this objective thanks to the CPA grant of fiscal year 2023, which engage Jacob Smith, an engineer in South Deerfield to provide a visual assessment of the structure with particular attention paid to the impending deconstruction of the 1990 addition to the Jones library, and then the new construction which is anticipated. Jacob Smith report provides important information, which we'll get to in a moment. However, another part of this objective of the steps program is to increase accessibility so that all visitors can get inside the building to enjoy its cultural offerings. This goal has eluded us. The trustees all know that we need to have an accessible entrance, but it's not so easy. And we really do need professional help on this and it does impact the organization quite significantly because accessibility is key. I signed for programming grants from the Massachusetts Cultural Council, when I tried to apply for a grant some years ago, I failed the first question, is your building accessible, and once you fail that question, you can't get into the system. The third part of the step objective is improving storage conditions for the collection and we have some 7,000 artifacts housed in the building at 67 Amity Street. And we need to study HVAC issues and the potential use of heat pumps to heat more of the building. The historical society includes your fellow residents who bring many talents and skills to the table. However, when it comes to the examination of a structure as important to the town's identity and history, as the historical society does, we frankly need professional assistance. Therefore, the trustees turned to Coon Riddle Architects who assembled this proposal with our input that will help the trustees establish priorities for work that must be done in an orderly fashion. Without the report that will follow the analysis of the structure and its various parts, including such aspects as wiring, plumbing, the foundation, sills and roof. The organization will have to respond to emergencies in a piecemeal fashion. And frankly, we don't have the money to operate in a piecemeal fashion. Most of these efforts are quite expensive and beyond our normal budget. And furthermore, the regulations that pertain to historic structures such as the Amherst Historical Society are detailed and again professional assistance is key to the longtime survival of the Historical Societies Museum. With the fiscal year 2023 Jacob Smith report in hand and I hope you've all taken a look at it, is a term that appears several times in the report. And that term is structurally deficient. And that that term is a little scary when you're looking at a tall building. The roof requires new reinforcing supports leaks need to be repaired a new roof consistent with the building is required to say the least. Also recommended is replacing portions of the Sylvain. It's also important to note that the building is no longer plum. That is, the building leans to the West. This situation probably cannot be remedied without damaging the interior, but an accurate assessment needs to be made. The work of my BIM team, which is part of our proposal to see pack is important to the surveillance of this condition. There is also work to be done in the area between the two additions on the north side of the building. Jacob Smith concurs that documenting present conditions is critical to the future of the building and to an orderly work on the structure. The work of the team assembled by Coon Riddle will also address infrastructure issues in particular a mechanical electrical plumbing and fire protection survey will be undertaken. We are eager to have recommendations relating to heating and air conditioning. In short, this proposal large as it is will provide the historical society with solid proposals for needed work, along with designs and estimates. I should add that we are in the process of preparing a grant proposal to the Massachusetts cultural councils cultural facilities fund and we'll ask for Somewhere between 30 and $35,000, which is the maximum grant, which can be matched by a grant from the town through pack we can match mass cultural council funds with municipal funds. Anyway, I'm happy to report that Alan tyranny of Coon Riddle is with us this evening to help me answer any questions you may have but that ends my formal introduction to our proposal it's in information that really wasn't in the proposal itself so I hope it's been helpful. Thank you. And I just want you to know if you hadn't seen that Liz Larson has been admitted to the meeting as well. Okay, good. So, if you had wished for additional comments from anyone before the committee speaks. You're welcome to. Liz, do you or Alan want to say anything at this point. I have no additional comments to what Gigi just told the committee. Okay, that was Liz. And this is a long tyranny. I'm president at Coon Riddle architects. And I also have nothing else to add other than we are also a neighbor to the museum and very much appreciate this building from a historical perspective. Thank you, Liz and Alan Gigi I saw the name Simeon strong on the display. And I was wondering about that. I'm glad that Liz referenced your name. I recall your presentation last year with the paintings. Right. Welcome to all of you and thank you for taking the time to present and comment on your presentation. I'd like to open the floor to committee members who wish to make any comments or questions. Tim, your hand has been up for some time. I'm sorry. I didn't call on you earlier. I had already started to engage with the presenters but anything you'd like to say Tim. I just wanted to have a conflict of interest comment that I have a former trustee of the Simeon saw a strong historical society museum. I can't remember the years but I was a trustee for about two or three years or I don't know, eight years ago or seven years ago or whatever it was so that will that comment will also be applicable when we get into our deliberation phase. Thank you, Tim. And I think you got off the board about the time I came on. I remember seeing your name on old minutes. Yeah, I worked with full shaver when he was president. Okay. Thank you, Tim. Any committee members with questions or comments I see Matt your hand is up. Hello. Thank you for your proposal. So this looks like what you're trying to do is basically move toward a sort of conceptual design for a whole bunch of work that you sort of expect is going to happen, or need to happen. How do you think that is that work which is, I don't know, obviously going to be a lot of money. How is that, how are you going to fund that, whereas were you expecting to receive money for that. Um, I think that some some projects will probably come back to CPAC at some point, not all at once, but there also is the cultural councils. The facilities fund, which we can apply to and we can match their money with money locally raised so that will be our expectation and I think we're we haven't had any major fundraising initiatives for quite some time. Certainly, I've only been in town for a decade but I think, you know, we'll just have to really get out there and do some hard work and raise some money locally. So, so I guess your feeling is that this is sort of a backlog of, of, I don't know, 10 or 20 years or more worth of work. Okay. And you don't anticipate doing this. The actual construction, you think will be in multiple phases. Oh, absolutely. It's more than undertake at any one time. And this is Liz Larson. I would also like to add that with a study, a professional study such as this, we will also be able to look seriously at federal level grants, which will require a lot more input from from the architects and planning. Right. Okay. I'm starting to understand what's going on here. Yeah. Well, and probably some of the projects that need to be done will be quite small. Okay. And I mean, replacing a sill is sounds horrible, but actually, given the fact we don't have a whole lot of plumbing pipes. It's, it's not the major thing it would be in a 20th century house or Orion period house. It's going to be, we don't know what we're going to find at this point. Right. Okay. Yeah. I think this is a long journey again just part of the study is determining what the priorities are. What are the things that need to be addressed immediately. And what are the creating a timeline for the Amherst historical society of how they could approach the projects and then they can use that information to go after grants. If it's repairs or renovations or additions for accessibility. Right. Thank you. Thank you. Robin, I see that your hand is up. You're on muted president. I know I'm here. Yeah, I just wanted to the, because I'm driving some of the information that Matt asked a question about dropped out. But I just wanted to say that I'm really pleased to hear that the circle society is applying to the math cultural council for grant funding for these. These studies, which are clearly very important, and I wanted to remind them about the Massachusetts preservation project fund, which is through Massachusetts historical commission. I was looking at it today. It does look like nonprofits can apply for free project planning funds and their design is until March full disclosure. I just started a job at the Massachusetts historical commission, but I'm not in the planning fund department, so feel free to reach out to them. If you should have trouble getting through, you can contact somebody else in my commission to see if they can help you kind of make a connection there. But I also wanted to stress how critical these reports will be for future funding and both math cultural council and Massachusetts preservation project funds could be sources for future funding. So it would be great to see this project be one of the first to in the field of historic preservation really be able to take those to pay dollars and transfer them into funding outside of just the local town funds to make important improvements to building. Thanks. Thank you, Robin. Thank you, Robin. That's certainly some worthwhile information that I hope the applicants are aware of and if not, if for any reason, you can contact the committee to get a hold of Robin or also look on the historic commission for the town of Amherst. I really have information about the historical commission funding and it came from. I think it came from you Sam or maybe from Holly but I have it on my desk, my messy desk. Wonderful. Doug. Okay, thank you and thank you for the presentation. I'm just wondering, you know, this may go be a question for Alon, and it may be premature, but is the building considered what's called a house museum from a building called a point of view or is it is it actually a public museum, which would be subject to some of the mass access board thresholds for full accessibility. Question Doug and we haven't done a code review yet, but that would be part of this study is to determine what category it fell into. I believe it is technically called a house museum right now. Yes. And there are in the accessibility code there are questions for historical structures. So, we did a similar study for the Jones library and went through and said which items are required, which items they may want to do just because it provides accessibility and which items may not be required and could go through a variance process because it's a historic structure. Okay, thank you. When your hand is still up. Do you did you re raise it do you have an additional comment or question. No, can you ignore me until I get out of my car. Yes. Okay, thanks. Any other questions from committee members. I have a question for whoever wishes to respond from the applicants. Yes, if there are any immediately known needs that is to say some that are relatively urgent. And associated with that. Have you received any comments or even estimates or just from any contractors who might have an idea how to address the most urgent needs distinct from the accessibility study. In other words, are there holes somewhere that need to get filled is there stairs that are hazardous, etc. Are there any urgent ones that you're cognizant of that we may be familiar with. I think there are a couple of areas that Jacob Smith in his report that you all got copies of. He mentions some of the sill work that may need to be replaced, but also between the two wings on the north side of the house there's an old chimney that's there. I guess it services the furnace. So it's still in use. But there's apparently some leakage back there that you know the building's not going to fall down he didn't find anything that was dangerous or hazardous in the current conditions but you know that would be one thing that should get looked at sooner than later. And the structure up in the attic is structurally deficient that's where that term comes in. And, but he doesn't he didn't think that was an immediate need but you know if we were to have the 1838 hurricane come through now you know this many years after that it might, we might have some trouble. If I could if I could just chime in a little bit. Jacob Smith did the evaluation of existing conditions for the structure. So he went in and looked at everything and found where the areas were deficient or that needed repair. The next step which is included in this proposed study is to identify how to make those repairs and determine the cost for those repairs. Thank you. I guess as a follow up just to confirm my understanding. When Matt had asked the nature of the study. You explained to my benefit and possibly the other committee members that the study could be used as a contributing asset for other applications. Is it fair to say that the, that's the main purpose of the application to generate the thorough study that can be used beyond the town as opposed to urgent repairs. Oh absolutely this is probably a blueprint for the next five to 10 years. I mean I think it's going to take a while. Knowing knowing what the wasn't there an estimate of like $120,000 to repair one of the church steeples that came before you within the last few years. We've had a few estimates. Yeah, I mean I can imagine. I can kind of imagine our own roof needing that kind of support and we can't do that every year. I mean you can't do that every year. And we as as was the case last year we have a higher level requests than we have available funds. Last year we were able to find a way with support from the town to navigate that. Are there any portions of the study that might be less immediate yet could still be completed in a phase process. So we're at an interesting intersection with the Jones library. It may be that the there's a $6,000 line for the my BIM team study. And it may be that the library will fund that because it's sort of a requirement before they start causing vibrations coming our way. We might be able to take that out. But that's the only element I know that we can completely take away I mean we could put off the engineering part, the engineering study. I mean if you look at the. I can I jump in Gigi just to. I so when we look at an existing condition of building existing condition study. We really do like to look at it holistically because if there are repairs that need to be made to the mechanical systems it might impact the structural system or the architectural finishes. When you start picking apart an existing conditions study. It ends up being will not complete and comprehensive and potentially in the long haul costing the entity more to make repairs. Doing this upfront study allows us to figure out how to approach things in the order of priority. Both for the structure, but also the Amherst historical society. So I like to think of buildings as bodies. And hopefully when you go to the doctor, they look at you as a whole person. And when we go out to buildings, we look at it as a whole building. Thank you. That answers my questions. Any other questions from committee members. So I'd like to thank you for presenting and for responding to our questions. If we have additional questions, we'll be sure to reach out to you. And you've been through the process previously, at least usually has and we're following a similar similar pattern this time. The meeting would be December 7, which is a public hearing where we'll later in the meeting commence with our discussions. Thank you very much everyone. Okay, thank you. And Holly, if you're able to remove the existing applicants and bring in the Zion church folks. Okay, I'm working on it. Sam. Yes. Well, this is Tim while she's pulling that up. In the agenda, the dollar amount was not included. I'm going to assume when these applicants make their comments that there's no change in the dollars right. So I'm operating under the assumption that the numbers we've gotten up to this point are the correct numbers. That's probably true. I've not heard of any changes to the requested amounts. Okay. If we hear any or if I receive anything, certainly the committee would be informed of that. That's a good assumption. Okay, thank you. Thank you. I do see seek young in the panel. So is, is there anyone else that they would like me to bring in. Can you hear us seek young? Yes, I could. Welcome. Is there anyone in addition you would like to have join you in your presentation. No, not today's meeting. I'm the only one who's here. Okay. So we're here to listen to what you would like to say. Welcome. And the floor is yours. Thank you. I thank you. What, what I'd like to discuss is a follow up with the attend the CPA request to ask to attend meeting historical meeting on November 13 discuss and seek the guideline of a roof materials. So I have, I have attended the historical commission meeting on November 13 have discussed it. And I was told, they will give us decision next Monday. So they ask me to attend meeting again on December 4 on Monday evening. Okay, that's good to hear that you're in communication with the historical commission. Yes. And we do have a, the chair of the commission is a member of our committee, although I'm not sure, Robin, if you're available to hear us or not. I know you wanted us to wait until you're out of the car. I think the inquiry is pertinent to your area. Can you hear me and do you have any, I can hear you. Yeah, I'm sorry to what seek young said about joining you on the next meeting. Is that correct? Yeah, can you hear me okay. We can. Okay, I'm sorry my phone is for some reason I'm not driving anymore and the zoom is stuck in driving mode. So I'm most having a large time managing that. I think that the issue with the roof material is not something that we need to be particularly concerned about just a question about a historical precedent which I think they addressed and some of their application material so but we always like to have our love to have our CV applicants come to the historical commission meetings to talk about their projects so that's basically the gist of it. Okay, that's good to know. So seek young Robin is acknowledged what your comment was is there any anything else you'd like to communicate to us in your presentation slot regarding your proposal. This CPA told us on meeting that we attend on December, September, told us to resubmit our application. We have reason I submit all the materials from very beginning that when we started two years ago. In case you lost the material and you know just sending it what we have discussed got a new estimate and which is 177 911. That was the scope of work. I have a submitted to CPA into the September. There isn't all the materials when in again, because case you overlook something or because it has been two years. So case you need it. That's why I send it all the estimate. We got it from day one we started this historical preservation application. So we are still sticking with the September estimate, we have a submitted, which is 177 911 dollar. And, but I don't know that we consider our application was rejected. They told us to submit again, which we have, but is question is remain is still whether is slave roof material, or that we could have with that as for single slave roof is prices that really is enormous. And to estimate from a slave. That's what they do is just install slave roof. One of them we got is $350,000. The replacing whole roof, but we, I asked them again, very recently, after attending November meeting with the historical commission is it possible they could do the just area where need to be replaced. And I got a respond back say they don't do the partial work. Either whole roof or nothing. Then other second person we had an estimate is their professional life only slave roof. But this person who's in charge. He's not taking any more work. He give us estimate October of 2022. After he finished his last work, he's planning on retiree. So to slave roof, we got estimate is one of us 315 other one companies that he's no longer taking new work. So, I don't know where we are, you know, up in the air, hoping for decision from CPA and historical commission, whether will allow us to go with the S for single or have to be go with a slave. And so, we are an air just as you are so. Thank you. She can I do see that Robin has her hand up. Robin, is there something you'd like to say regarding the comment from she can. Yeah, I just wanted to say that our meeting is coming up next week. And I will make sure that we have, I think that it didn't make the official agenda, but unanticipated items is always a part of our agenda. I will make sure that we have a formal statement from the historical commission next week on the approval of of the roofing material and I mean I can add that it's true that we're sorry are incredibly expensive and I'm learning more and more about exceptions to anywhere. They need to be replaced so I don't anticipate that it's a problem, but we will make sure that we have something official next week so that we can move forward without further question. Can you confirm for me Robin what day it is next week that you would be meeting. I think it is Monday should know but it would be before our next CPA meeting. I think so yeah but actually I'm not. I know Nate was trying to post the agenda today so I think it's Monday. I'm sorry Mike, my, I'm just not having a great time with my phone here I can't confirm. If you could let us know when they're because you know next week's the public way here it is no I was looking at the wrong week yes it is Monday Monday 30. Thank you. Thank you for informing us of that. So seek young hopefully you've heard Robin's comments. What she said was that she believes although they'll have a formal statement and meeting the she indicated that it seems that the material on the roof is not apt to be a problem. So, would you like to comment further or I can open up to questions from committee members if you're, if you're done with what you'd like to say. At the meeting on November 13 Robin and they made a comment, but I don't want to say anything to be official on after I will attending December 4 Monday meeting. They told me they will notify me. I mean, I'm going to attend meeting so they're going to let me know their decision next Monday. That's why I'm very optimistic, but I don't want to share that with you yet. So I hear this final word. Okay. Well, thank you. I guess if there's, I guess I can open it up for the committee to ask any questions or any comments that they have or wish to make. Yes. For sick young. Matt I see that your hand is up. Yes. So seek young thank you for your diligence in working through this proposal. I guess I have a couple of questions relating to the, the written questions. Okay. So you had and they're just really just clarification of things I think you've already said. So you're, you're comfortable with the, the estimates and no contingency. Yeah, we do have that's Sam asked us, or CPA asked us to send me the email with a contingency plan. And we wrote down what we condensed plans are, because being a nonprofit organization, we're strictly relied on congregation contribution. And if that doesn't met the contentious plan, we are willing to go to bank and I went to bank already and spoke with the vice president of a business lending. So they are asked us or sure has that give us loan, the amount we need. Hopefully it's not big amount. They're, we are in short to they give us a loan. Okay. And then just a little clarification on the, the historical preservation. It's described as an easement in the question I guess it's sort of like a. So, what we have been saying is that for all of these historical proposals coming through CPA that we're expecting them to put the town and them to work together to put together a historical preservation. I forget that the name of it the restriction restriction historical preservation restriction on the property. So, yeah, so you're prepared to do that and then maybe we need to add in other projects we've added $5,000 to the project in order to do that. Because we I think that Dave and they, we had a meeting back in February, and they explained to us, they explained to us what happened if we accept the grant from CPA. So we understood. Okay, good. Thank you. Okay. I wanted to ask a follow up question about the proposal from Matt Corcoran that seems to be the basis for the request. Yes, it's dated on in August 10. Yes, we're now at the beginning almost of December. I assume that the roofing season has passed. Yeah, that this work would be most likely happening in the spring or summer of 2024. And the question is, whether this proposal amount that's been stated here is still going to be valid in another four or five months, or whether inflation and, you know, is going to cause that contractor to say well you know that was my price back in August of last year, what my price now is higher. One of the thing I was going to do is talk to a roof or some way service, they give us estimate of almost $69,000. And so I didn't have a chance to go over with them to tell them that that we have to resubmit the application. And so this work not going to be done to sometime next year, maybe following year. So I am, I am going to follow up with the show away with roofing service, and also with the macro current as well, because he did all the estimate from staging setup. Miner's work and carpentry work. So first macro current I don't think the price is his labor and his man is not changing my church main concern is the roof estimate of almost $69,000. That assuming that price is for if historical commission and CPA will allow us to do the as for single. If it's a none other than as for single that have to price will be changed tremendously so at this point, I cannot give you a definite answer, we're going to stay with $177,000. I'm going to do work diligently more and speak with the roof first, and explain the current saturation. Anything changes other than we have a summit already over $177,911,000. I will email the same. So you guys were aware of it was going on. Any changes. Hopefully, I know with the inflation will change some, hopefully not too much so I will give you update after I talked to them. So, the way you described that makes me seems that if variance with the proposal from Mr. Corcoran. His proposal includes work from some way. So, your contract would be with Mr. Corcoran, correct. You're not going to be contracting with some way. No, I am going because I don't know some of you now we're not medical current have a personal. Not the problem but I don't review anything but I am going to get in touch with the some way roofing service myself, and I will talk to Matt sometime next next week, I don't want to bother him this week so. Okay. Anything changes. Of course, naturally, I'm going to email this email to Sam. And so you are aware of it was going on. I wish I could give you 100% this is what it is. But because not knowing is going to be slave roof or sink as for single. So we are kind of in a limb as well. So follow up Doug or you seek young having heard questions. I had a similar question to Doug's, which is operate that I, and our committee will operate on the assumption that the hundred and 77,000 from the update that you provided in September. Yes, the basis for your current request. Yes. Matt on our committee had referenced that we sometimes allocate funds store preservation restrictions. And distinct from that, Doug was inspiring about the likelihood of that estimates being accurate. And I understand that you can't state with it with certainty, what might occur but the point that Doug brought up that I thought was important is that if I understand correctly, and if I believe our committee understands correctly, your intent is to work with the general contractor, Matt Corcoran. Yes. I think that he will be the contractor that will oversee the project and the payments, and the other thing from my perspective is I've heard a few comments from our historical commission representative, Robin, that there's a good possibility that your request for the use of some form of asphalt or equivalent material. Yes, it is quite, you know, it is a potential. Yes. And if, if we assume that that is viable, that material, then our questions related to or your estimate are valid. I guess what I would say is this. I think it's that would be beneficial for you to have a conversation with the general contractor prior to our committee engaging in our commencement of deliberations. We certainly can receive information at a subsequent time, but we're apt to commence discussions and any, any new information or any changes that you identify. It's beneficial for all including you as the applicant to inform our committee. But we'll, I will assume that the application as presented and the estimate from the general contractor of 177 is what we're discussing here. Yes. So thank you, Tim. Yes, I just wanted to confirm the question I asked for the written responses about both the Coon Riddle and the GNC be consulting expenses to get to this point. And the way I understood it, the church is going to assume all those costs and that the 177 proposals just to do the work all that preliminary cost is being assumed by the church and that's not part of this request is that a fair assumption of your Proposal. Yes, because we didn't have a choice in a matter. We are assuming that design work will be part of the grant will be include but since our application was postponed. That Coon Riddle, they didn't want to wait payment. Too long. So I told them what's going on. Our application was postponed. So we asked them if they could take a monthly installment they agree. So we are making a monthly payment. So that won't be a brand will be the pain of putting in riddle is our church will be responsible. And I'd like to add for anyone who might be unaware, our funds cannot be used for work that's already been completed. So it's good to hear that you're aware of that. And thank you Tim for asking that question. Bob. When when we discuss this in September. There was either a revelation or some question about whether the water was coming down inside the building or outside the building. Has that been confirmed that this is water that's leaking outside the building and not inside and I'm just only concerned that there might be additional damage that we're not taking into consideration here. Very first, that when I had a general contractor came out. Look at our roof. He noticed he went up in a roof. He saw roof was a dented were like coming out. That means a hole in there. That's when we call the architect and got involved with the structural engineer as well. Yes, what my current set on September meeting that water is from gutter being rusted water coming down is going through the basement directly. That's true. And we had a damage and a basement. We fixed it, hopefully. But the root problem is still existing in my opinion. I'm not a contractor, but I read and I talked to all the contractor to who came to our church. And as you everybody saw Chris folly is the architect for data work and went up in a roof and structural engineers. And today it is not a whole in there need to fix. That's why when Chris folly attend the meeting. He issue that this is an emergency that roofing should be fixed this passing winter. We're already. So, I didn't say anything last meeting because I expect medical current opinion will us are architect. So that's why our application was postponed and we are hoping that we could get approved for this grant. It affects the roof so I didn't go on myself so I don't know really but I'm just taking a professional opinion estimate. So it is a problem in and out so you seek young. Yeah. If I'm hearing. I'm not certain that what you're saying is exactly what Matt had said at the last meeting in September. You did indicate that you're not a contractor or an expert. In September, my recollection, which is fairly clear is that Matt made it Matt quarkrin was very clear in his statement that the damage was not occurring inside the building that the water was flowing externally. That was repeated multiple times I recommend that you touch base. Again, and if there's any change to let us know. Our understanding, I won't speak from my understanding my as a committee member is that regardless of whether there's an immediate leak or not, that the nature of repairing the entire roof under the assumption of the existing $177,000 estimate. Yes, that could not take place until at the earliest next spring anyway. Regardless, what I heard with clarity at the last meeting was that regardless of the status of where the water is going. That there's there was not the capacity under the estimate that's been provided for the work to commence prior to April of next year at the earliest because of the drying times of the beams. So my suggestion is, if there's anything different, feel free to let us know relating to the estimate. And it, it may be better for beneficial to hear if there's any change. Okay, and commentaries from that but I guess that's all I have to say. Anyone else on the committee here have any questions or comments or seek young. Well, seek young I'd like to thank you for your persistence in attending the varying meetings. Yeah, and your patients as you seek to navigate the process of interacting with the town, as well as with contractors. It's good to hear you I'm sorry we're not seeing you. But we will, if we have any additional questions for you. We will communicate them to you via email. And if, if you wish to review anything from the meeting on September 14. You were in attendance and it's not always easy to hear everything that's going on when they're here in the middle of the meeting. We do have a video link on the town website, or I and I could even email to you if you wish, if you wish to see the meeting again to see what was communicated by Matt Corker and at that time so I'd like to thank you for your time and for joining us and for your information. Thank you for this opportunity and thank you for trying to help us restore our church and trying to provide a ground and we appreciate that. And thank you everybody. Good night. So we're running a bit over time here. We will now curtail the opportunities for our presenters to respond to important questions. So those of you who are scheduled for a time that's already passed, we will grant you your time and I apologize for not holding to the exact schedule. The next applicant is the district one neighborhood association. I do see that Meg gauges in the audience. Yes, and thank you so much Sam and there are three other members of our committee here. Catherine striker, Jane walled and heady start up. Who will also participate and Brian Harvey unfortunately I think had to leave. They're members of our committee. Well, welcome you welcome, Megan, your colleagues this is the district one neighborhood association regarding the mill river history trail project. Thank you for joining us and we're, we're glad to hear what you have to say. Thank you so much. I'll make some brief comments and invite questions so that we're sure that what we say relates to what you're most curious to hear. We're very happy to have this opportunity to talk with all of you about our proposal for stage two of the mill river history trail project. That's a working title. Our final name will be stage one was funded by the CPA committee for archaeological and archival research to look at four sites for which there was physical evidence, and I hope you've had a chance to either read or at least look through the report. Pretty embarrassing how much work. They did for $12,900. But I think the team that did that were into it and we're very proud of the quality of the work. Stage two will expand the project to look at nine specific sites and three contextual or historical features that aren't related to a specific place but are about things that were going on in North North Amherst and particularly around the river. They're not involve archaeology but instead will be more archival. There's a massive amount of material in people's basements and letters in archives in different places that we need to unearth and put together to tell the story. There are five deliverables two of which were will be in the core interest of the CPA historical focus research on the nine on the 12 sites written descriptions of them. And then translations of those description descriptions into material that can be on a website that people will be able to have access to. In addition, with volunteer work we plan to engage the public and expand the number of people who are working on this project. And, and of course there'll be some fundraising involved. There's a third stage of the project which I am sorry to say probably won't involve CPA funding, which is putting the signs working with the conservation team. This is luckily all on mostly on conservation land and so we'll be working with in collaboration with them around actually implementing that that'll be stage three. So while this is a historical proposal to the CPA. In the context of the other fundraising that will do to engage the public this will enable all of Amherst to learn more about this unique history. It's so different from what a lot of people think about Amherst history, in terms of the native indigenous native peoples life there, immigrants, and with many different factories and mills that were along the river. By the way, the church that we just you were just talking about is one of the sites that will be reviewing and writing about. It's a lot of collaboration I think I'll stop and see if anybody else on our team has anything to add or we want to move it on to the committee. It seems like I don't see Sam anymore. I'm here. Oh good. I don't know who's there or not. It's like we're in the great beyond who anyway I don't have didn't have to call my hair after all. I didn't want everyone to see me drinking my water. Okay. I'm going to get up and leave. So I know Jane Catherine and head of your here I don't know if they have anything to add, I guess we raise our hands, or if we want to go straight to questions, we're ready to have this conversation with you. Okay. Thank you, Meg. And I, I do see cat has a hand up, although that may be from before. It was from before because it's removed. So I would like to open up the floor for committee members to ask any questions that they might have Robin. Okay. Hi. I just wanted to say, I guess it's more a comment than a question or maybe a little bit of both research that you're doing on the additional sites. We have tails nicely with the current objective of the historical commission, which is to improve our inventory. And the macro database. So we would love to coordinate on that so that any form bees that need to be created or updated that we could at least get that information and make that connection so that that information can do double duty so really in support of this project. Thank you, Robin. Any questions from other committee members Katie. Thanks Sam and I apologize I've lost my voice. So if you can't understand me, I would understand that. And Meg and Jane cat and he thank you so much for this. It's really exciting what you've done so far and what you found and really interesting. I just had one clarifying question. You talk about written descriptions that can be used on a website and throughout the application you, you refer to the website and you know, sort of the QR code idea. Just, just to be clear, the amount of funding that you're asking for now is to do the research, the descriptions, the trends, you know. The translation into materials, but not the actual website. Correct. The website, we don't think fits into your criteria. Okay. I just, I wanted to do you, but the fact that we're planning to do it makes our project, you know, more interesting because unlike some historical projects that are done and it's preserved and that's terrific. We're going to actually have a mass of energetic outreach to the public so people know about it. There's no point in doing this if people don't learn. Use it and spend engage with it right. And enjoy the nature and the river and so on. Yeah, so okay so that would be under a separate fundraising process that you would undertake. We haven't done, we haven't figured out, people say, oh, get a volunteer to do the website. And we've all had mixed, mixed experiences with volunteers taking on. So we're, we haven't figured that out yet, but that's exactly right. That's not part of what the funding we're seeking. And that would be kind of maybe phase to be, you know, before you get to phase three. Yes. Okay, great. Thank you so much. Is anybody else on our committee want to add to that. Maybe that was enough. I think that's accurate. This is Jane walled I think that's accurate. Thank you. Matt. Yeah, I don't really have a question I just might have more of a comment that when my wife read about this in the paper she was very excited. And I also am impressed with sort of the range of different historical things you're covering in this trial that you could go on a two hour walk and you could cover everything from you know historical architecture, all the cultural things, and then the prehistoric and geological things as well so I think this is this is an exciting project. Thank you Matt. I see that heady you have raised your hand. I assume in response to Matt's comment. Absolutely Sam. I think it's been our goal from very early on in the thinking and gathering of people and resources about this area of almost to kind of think about the layers of history that we wanted to address and share with with our fellow citizens and with other people visiting Amnesty and to kind of mesh the sort of indigenous history with the industrial history with the opportunities to see a very beautiful landscape setting to walk and enjoy nature to sort of really try and, I don't know, grab it all at this point and and also dig deeper into into the records that exist. Yes. Thank you, Michelle. We've talked before about content at the conservation commission meetings, and I guess I'm just going to make a comment and a plug for the signs being on conservation lands, just that maybe there could be some integration of conservation of the river being integrated into the signage. So I did read the responses and the questions and it looks like maybe conservation department is going to be responsible for long term maintenance of signs or design of signs or maybe something about it so just sort of integrating that somehow with, you know, the integrity of the mill in terms of conservation not just about human history would just be appreciated and that's just my plug. I'm pausing to see if anybody on our committee wants to respond. I think that's a really interesting idea we should sit down and think that what that would how that would work. The presentation has to be done in collaboration with the conservation team, and including who pays for what and so and we might be helpful if we're successful in raising money. But that's, there's significant collaborative conversations that we need to have just like what you just described Michelle. I see cat that you have your handle. Yes hi just addressing what Michelle said, I think a large part of conservation comes with valuing what you're looking at. So this project will spark that knowledge that interest that curiosity which leads to greater conservation amongst general public. And I think that would be very valuable. And there's time can I just catch a spoke. I don't know if you heard, she lives very near the North Amherst the new library that was built and she noticed. She's that when they were digging the foundation these horseshoes were coming up out of the dirt. And she knew that maybe I'll let her explain it but I don't know if you've heard about the horseshoe project. She's that's been corporate we're incorporating into this and some it's a separate project but she but where it's incorporated. Yes. Okay, the project is called for one of a nail. And it was inspired by the horseshoes that I noticed being thrown up from the excavation site behind the North Amherst library. They were the first right builders if they had any plans for them. And they set aside a few and I collected a few and wanted to put up some kind of memorial or acknowledgement for people to engage with so there's a local blacksmith the guy called Eric Dennis who's come up with a fantastic drawing of those statue, which would be mounted on a plinth, exactly on the place where the old blacksmith site was, and currently I'm winding my way through the various levels of town permissions so I presented to Paul Bockelman and Guilford mooring. And this week I spoke with the Public Arts Commission as well. So that's that's going forward to and it ties in beautifully with a lot of what's planned for the Mill River history trail. So I'm involved with them as well as why I'm on the committee and really enjoying the planning stage, but this little statue really could go up sometime next spring, that would be the ideal. I'm happy to send you a project proposal if anyone wanted to see it and there's a little website a little go daddy site that I put up for future fundraising for it. And I'd be very happy to share that with you if you wanted. Thank you, Pat. I guess I have a question or two. Meg or whoever. Now, the trail, is it expected, you may have submitted this in your proposal but I haven't didn't read it in its entirety today. So I'm wondering where the trail will progress through how much of the land is public versus private. Well, all of it is either public conservation land, except for a stretch along Summer Street, where we have to figure we want to note the factory housing and the lover the sawmill that was there. The worst immigrants lived and we have to, we wouldn't have to figure out where we would put a sign in terms of whose property it is but that's a really good question, Sam. But it'll be all on the sidewalk people would walk and nobody would have to walk across anybody's property. So, and again, thank you and I recall when you have come before us in the past, I was impressed with the creativity of your group and your community enthusiasm as I am again. And you, is it reasonable to say that the application the project although it's submitted as historic preservation that there's recreation aspects affiliated with it as well. So that's interesting. I guess so is recreation and the people will be walking. It's a complicated subject and recreation and conservation are enjoyed by pretty much the same people. They're often in conflict. And if you just walk around Puppers pond you can see that where people don't want to change the walking trail, so that it doesn't go exactly next, you know, some of us have suggested moving the walking trail a little further away from the pond. They're not horrified, because they like to walk really near the edge of the pond, which is makes it hard to preserve the ecosystem. So, we could explore that if you'd like it's it. I'm not, I don't know, we'd be happy to explore it. It's complicated. Thank you. Well walking sounds like recreational activity. I'm not sure what the point would be if we wanted to get. I know recreation is one of your areas of focus. Get the recreation committee and Susie asked about this. I'm not sure what that would. I'm not certain if we have to distinguish between the categories of funding we've had. I know that recreation and open space go together. Yeah, I'm not sure how that would work with historic preservation and recreation. We can shake her head. We all like recreation. Would you like to comment on. It has to, when they submit, they have to tell us which category that they are submitting in. I mean, it certainly could be changed before it's approved, but once it's approved, it can't be changed. And it can't date. I'm going to have Dave's comment as well. Again, we have had projects that have been. More than one. Category, but once it's submitted and once it's approved, it absolutely cannot change later. Yeah, I don't want to go into great detail tonight, but it's an interesting question, Sam, but I think by definition, you know, and we could certainly look at the CPA website. You know, the overall intent of this is. Again, with a historical focus, so we're not in. We're not, we're not fixing a trail. We're not adding a bridge. We're not putting down any product. This is simply, these are simply signs that go along a conservation trail within a conservation area. And as Meg said, there might be a few places along Summer Street or State Street where there may be interpretive plaques near someone's home that might have been an important feature historically. But I think we need to be a little careful too because I don't think, you know, kind of mixing and matching. I don't think this would meet the definition the CPA definition of recreational spending or conservation spending. This is just my take. The CPA is really pretty specific about use of CPA funds for signs so it might behoove us all to kind of read up on that between now and, you know, future meetings. Thank you, Holly and Dave. Tim, I see that your hands up. I always like to ask the applicants and I know Meg, it might put you in a little uncomfortable position but as we debate these, all of our projects with the good prospect that we will not have enough money available to fund everything. The way I read the proposal, you were going to hire two consultants for maybe six months and so on. And if we had to shave some money, say only approving half the request as opposed to the entire request, would that significantly change this project in your need? I'd rather have you try to address that question than us hypothesize as we start to maybe pair some of our requests down. I'm pausing in case anybody, we discussed this, we would probably reduce the number of sites. I see, okay. That's a short answer but you know, obviously we could hope that suddenly we would raise a lot of money or, but that's immediately what we would have to do. Is anybody else who's still, I know we're, Jane had to leave. I think that's what we, we discussed that ahead of time seeing that that question would be asked. I mean, we have to raise an additional chunk of change, big amount of money anyway, but for those other outreach and website and so on components. Thank you, Mike. Go ahead, Doug. Yeah, I just to clarify for myself. I have several references to signs. And it's my understanding that the money we're talking about this, this evening for this round of funding is not going to purchase any signs. There are purely research and collection of material that in some future, you know, when, when future funding shows up, then we might, you know, somebody might be able to pay for some signs. So at the end of spending this money, you have collected a bunch of information but there's no physical manifestation of any of your work, is that correct. That's the funding right. With this is not going to, as far as we understand it the signs don't qualify for CPA funding they're not preserving anything they're just noting it. But the beauty of this project is if the CPA supports it, you fund the research, and then we enhance that research by other funds that we raise to let everybody know what we found out so it's not like oh we saved a house and nobody knows it. So this, there's a magnifier effect and we were fairly optimistic that there are other sources of funding. In fact, Robin has been helpful and suggesting some and, you know, we're, that's part of what will do, not with CPA money but you know, look for those some of those other funding sources. We've already got our first individual donation of a thousand somebody just gave us $1,000, hardly without even much of an effort so we're, you know, we're working on it. Thank you Meg. And thank you for clarifying question Doug, continue Doug. A question for Dave actually. You know what we're asked for tonight is a step toward an ultimate vision of a series of signs and maybe other physical things that need to be maintained. And I've heard some talk about working with the town and with the conservation commission and you know I don't know very much about the district one neighborhood organization and whether they are able to have enough members and and momentum to be able to install and maintain things over a long period of time. But I guess I'm kind of wondering whether, if at some point it basically falls to the town to maintain signs that are implemented by the neighborhood association is the town cognizant of that potentially happening and, you know, interested in making and stepping up. Thanks Doug, if it's okay Sam I'll jump in. Certainly. And thanks for your earlier question yeah the reason I went to the actual physical signs as we kind of got into real estate and the conservation commission and Michelle chimed in. I realized that this proposal doesn't get us that far. I believe if I'm not mistaken Meg. Does this next pulse of funding get the website up or not. I don't know if it gets it up it gets a plan to have one. Okay. So that's, that's also a product, an outcome of this work, which is not physical per se, but to your point, Doug, I think. Realistically, yes, I think when we install signs like this at a recreation area or a conservation area. I think realistically, we need to assume that the future replacement and or maintenance of them would would likely fall to the town I think we're always open and we can accept charitable donations for a whole range of things, including like this so we would not be adverse to setting up some sort of endowment fund for this. I think to Michelle's earlier point. We, because it's on because it's proposed to be on conservation land and I think the commission would would likely be supportive of it with some conservation content. I think, I think we also are concerned about consistency, we have a number of these different generations of trail signs around town and when I walk around and hike around sometimes I'm a little frustrated maybe a little whatever that that we have so many different generations of signs and and we might just need to take some of them and start over so clearly we if this moves forward I'm sure the commission and the staff would work closely with Megan and the team to come up with an acceptable style and material so that they would be, you know, very robust. So, I have long answer but yeah I think we'd have to assume the town would then own them and maintain them in overtime. Thank you Dave. Any other comments or questions from committee members. I don't see any, any final comments for our committee make from you or your colleagues. I said plenty. Anybody else cat or Eddie or I see had his hand is up. I mean I think I think in terms of what has just been discussed in an ideal world there wouldn't be any signs at all. I think there would be some kind of trail and that there could be online resources that would be available to people or other kinds of marketing or PR that would bring people to the area without filling it full of signs I'm with Dave, you know, we have a lot of and, and, you know, you have to make sure that you don't. The signs don't detract from the nature of the landscape or the impact that that might have on someone who wants to to find out more about the history of the area or what they can do to listen to birds or whatever, you know, so I think I think that just needs to be said that sorry. Yeah, no go ahead make. That's why we want to use the qr code technology so people can, you know, even if it's just a qr code. One idea though some places you might have a line drawing of what the mill and the site looked like and some of them were two floors high. You just can't tell by looking at the foundation, but it could just be a qr code with you know for example, high school kids reading something or a link to a website so when you read it you could be able to read it, but I think there has to be some way of telling people what they're seeing. Thank you, Meg and heady we're, we've already run over time for us. I believe committees have the opportunity to ask the questions that they, they wished to like to thank you again for submitting your application for taking the time to come here and share your presentation and respond to our comments and questions. If we have any additional questions. We will reach out to you via email. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Holly I do see someone named Michael in the audience the next presentation which is the last one scheduled for the evening is Michael and Kimberly Como historic house move west side historic district. I can see that you've been admitted to the audience, Michael. I'm hoping that you can hear us. And I'm not sure if you have anyone that you wish to have join you from the audience. The floor is yours to communicate with us. And just let us, you know, we're here to listen. Thank you. Not able to hear anyone at the moment. It may be a microphone issue. Currently the microphone is muted. Now it's back on it may be that the microphone isn't engaging. I'm uncertain. We will wait while you seek to navigate. I can hear you a bit. Can you speak up. Is this a little better. The last few words were better. All right, we're having a little bit of problem with the computer, but no worry we'll wait for you. We're working with them. I'm trying to find a headset that might help out. Can you hear me any better. When you spoke loudly there, we could hear you clearly. All right, I'm going to do some yelling on my end so you can hear me so everybody in the house will hear as well. I am here with my wife, Kimberly. And as you know. We live at 260 North Hampton road, which is known as the West side historic district. And our request for funding assistance is to address concerns that we're having with our deteriorating foundation. And this funding would allow us to place our house on a cell foundation. And to increase the safety of our house by moving it further away. We have potential hazards associated with route nine, which is also known as North Hampton road. Our house was built in the mid 1860s. Over the past 150 years time and the elements certainly have taken a toll on our foundation. Foundation consists of a fieldstone base extending four feet above our basement floor, just topped by two feet of brick. During moderate and heavy rainstorms, we consistently get water flowing through our foundation along our East and South Foundation walls. Excuse me. Most of the original material that was filled the voyage between our fieldstones along these walls has certainly washed away over the years with the rain coming in and out through the basement. The efforts to fill these boys simply wash out during the next rainstorm. As far as the brick is concerned, the mortar the between the brick has deteriorated to the point where it turns the powder. When we make attempts to remove the mortar for purposes of repointing. So we're not successful with that task at all. The foundation ground movement against our East wall has has caused our foundation to bow inward in two areas. My wife and I purchased our house 30 years ago. And when we purchased the house we installed gutters and downspouts and graded our lawn to help divert water and excuse me surface water away from the foundation. These measures did work well to reduce water infiltration, but it certainly has not eliminated that search to find resolution to our foundation concerns. We have had several conversations with excavators and moving companies. One option that was presented to us was to replace to replace our foundation is to lift the house high enough over its current location to allow excavation equipment to work under the house. The existing work under this option would certainly be slower and the work area under the house would be a limit would be limited to only 10 feet along our front yard before it would impact the state's newly constructed sidewalk and road. The third in the most cost effective option is to lift the house, move it away from this existing foundation, and then set the house down on a new foundation at wherever that foundation might be born. Instead of returning the house to its original location close to the road, it would be placed deeper into our yard. Moving away from the road and in terms of safety, this would help would help the house again in terms of safety. Over the years, there have been four vehicles that have lost control traveling along route North Hampton Road and have impacted our property. Three of these vehicles nearly missed hitting the house and one actually crashed into our house causing some damage to the foundation. As I mentioned, our house is in need of a new foundation and with the recent widening of North Hampton Road, safety is still a concern. Route nine is now a little more than 10 feet closer to our house than it was before the construction project occurred and we weren't that far away from the road before that project took place. Pretty much what I have to say based on our request and hope you're able to hear most of what I have presented. Thank you Michael we could hear you you your volume waivers up and down a bit. So the closer you can get to the microphone the better. Thank you for joining us and thank you for communicating as a follow up to your application to the committee and the attendee. I'd like to open the floor to committee members who wish to ask questions or comments of Michael. Can you raise your hand or either with a electronic hand or an actual hand if your cameras on. I'm not seeing any questions from committee members at the moment. Robin I see your hand is up. Thank you. I was just looking over the answers to the questions, the applicant. And I don't, I don't have a direct question or comment. I'm just, I'm struggling with a little bit of how to view the repair of the foundation versus moving the house from a historic preservation perspective. The CPA money is intended to provide funds for historic preservation, but the public benefit which we tend to define for for private property as the public view of the house. I don't think that it would be that disrupted but there are just aspects to it I haven't come across a question like this before so I have to say. I don't think it would be changed by it in terms of comparing the two options and also the argument around. The legitimate danger of the road, which would also be legitimate legitimate danger for any of the historic houses along that route so those are my comments I'm sorry I don't have something more specific and clarifying to say but just wanted to add that. Doug. Yeah, I guess I'd like to follow up to the question we had about the preservation easement. And I'm going to ask you straight up or down yes or no. I would accept a preservation easement on the property. If we give you CPA money. This is a pretty common and usual requirement for any entity that CPA gives money to. Just my response to that question is, I don't have a complete understanding of what a preservation easement or how that easement would relate to the request we're making. As I mentioned, we do need to have foundation work ours is is certainly deteriorating to a point that it needs attention, and we're just looking to have the foundation replaced, and we certainly are committed to preserving the historic historic characteristic of our house. We don't have plans to polish or remove the house from the district so I really not sure an easement is going to align with. The desire for repair the house. Well, well, I guess I would say that I think I would view the easement as a contract between, or a way of ensuring that when the government gives money to preserve a structure that the structure is committed to preserved, regardless of who the owner is. So, you may be absolutely committed to keeping the property and maintaining its historic character, but the next owner may not. And then the funds that we've invested in the maintenance of that structure are at risk. So this is a way for us to ensure that, you know, we don't take we don't we don't waste those funds. So, I think it would behoove you to be do a little research on what those are if you need to talk to town staff about what the requirements typically are. I personally would want to have a pretty clear answer to that question before I seriously entertain your proposal. Thank you. Thank you and to respond to that I do have two thoughts and I appreciate the question. The first thought would be I would love to get more information as to how the easement. could pertain to our situation and in terms of your thought about what might happen if we decided to sell and what the next owner might be. Just as a little back history. I mentioned our house was built in the 1860s and the house was built by a relative of my grandfather. I think it might have been one of his uncles. So the house has been in the family for its entire duration. My wife and I are currently the fourth generation to have either owned or occupied the house, and my two children are the fifth generation. And my hope is that the one of them would express interest in the house and keep it and the family. Thank you, Michael. Michelle. Thanks. I just want to second that, you know, statements by Doug and that having an answer to that question, I think it would be important in our deliberation. So, if, you know, that could be related to us at some point soon, that would be great. At least from my perspective. Thank you, Michelle. Michael with a couple of committee members referencing this. It seems to me that it's in your interest to if you have questions relating to it to confirm with town staff I do see that Dave Zomac is in the audience. I don't know if you have any comment to add on this topic Dave but I'd be glad to the committee I'm sure would be glad to hear from you. Sure, I think I would recommend that Mike be in touch with one of my staff in the planning department Nate Maloy is our senior planner, Mike may know Nate. But we can easily get you in touch with Nate, who's. Yeah, we should really refer to these are. It's really a historic preservation restriction I've heard easement but it's really restriction on the building, and could possibly be on part of the land, and it typically has to do with, and it typically restricts renovations and changes to the exterior of the house. And I think the bigger question and we can get into this more in future meetings and perhaps Robin and, and if we need to have Nate come to one of these meetings. I'm thinking about, you know, what is really the public benefit I think Robin and others mentioned this and Doug earlier is, you know, though. I think we all recognize, you know, the changes that have happened on route nine and the foundation. The foundation issues that Mike and his family are dealing with, you know, these are public funds and the question is what is the public benefit of moving this house and and so this is, you know, these are always kind of unique ones that we've wrestled with these as a town, pretty mightily over the last, you know, seven to 10 years so I think this is going to take some some discussion and maybe bringing in some, some further expertise so those are my quick comments. Thank you, Dave so it sounds as though, Michael if you're able to communicate with Nate Malloy if you have questions related to historic preservation restrictions, which is Dave referenced are related to the exterior of the house, Robin. Just very quick question for Dave is my understanding correct that the preservation restriction is a requirement when we grant CPA funds under historic preservation. Because it is a requirement, how long the restriction is, there is some room for interpretation on that communities have interpreted the CPA, the CPA legislation differently so there's quite a range. Sometimes it's based on the amount of money that is put toward a project, sometimes they're in perpetuity it really is quite unique sometimes they're 30 year restrictions. You know if you look on the CPA website online you can see that communities have done different things. We've been talking about whether these should all be in perpetuity and and or whether they should run to the state through mass historic or whether there should be a local restriction that is overseen if you will by the historical commission slash down staff. So I think that's more of a conversation and I think Robin. You've had those conversations with Nate a little bit with the historical commission but I don't want to get us too far down that rabbit hole tonight. I appreciate that yet I just so just having clarified that then we're looking because the applicant was asked if they would accept a restriction just clarifying that it is a requirement of the grant. Thank you for clarifying that again, Robin. I have a question for you, Michael, which relates to the question that was asked about it's having whether or not you've explored a fence or a guardrail. I read your response that you have not with the town. Dpw and the state expansion of the road and a guardrail being beneficial, not withstanding what the state has done with the road for your property. Would a metal fence. For example, something similar to what's at the Pratt football field up the road but maybe without the spikes would a fence of that type offer some protection against vehicles not vibrations but against vehicle accidents. From my perspective it seems as though it would I'm curious your thoughts on the matter. My guess is it certainly would depending on what the what the fence was constructed out of so certainly the more substantial offense the the better protection it would provide. Certainly options that I'm open to look looking into. And as I had mentioned in my response earlier that we didn't have conversations with the town related to that. Because all the conversations I had with the state said it was a state project in the town really wouldn't have much of a decision making factor and I did contact the town at one point, and they referred me back to the state so again I'm certainly as as my own. So looking up myself I'm certainly willing to consider those options and I just have to look into see what type of fencing material to work best. Thank you Michael. I can appreciate the. I assume that it's been a challenging year for homes that are on that stretch of road, given the work that's been taking place. I'm sure that it was challenging for the contractors and the workers but also for the homeowners. I did grow up on Dana Street I'm very familiar with the area. In fact the bus stopped right in front of the house there. Another question that I have related to your proposal. Is that it, you know, moving the house is a solution that was suggested to you. I do own an old house old meaning pre 1900 that has water problems and foundation problems that may well be similar to what you have here. I'm familiar with a variety of solutions, just, you know, distinct from the application, I did find a solution to address the water, which was an interior cement foundation, not necessarily to support the entire structure, but rather to resolve the issue of water in the basement. I know the name of an organization who was very effective at doing so vastly more effective than any form of some pump, or other means of attempting to address a soft or ineffective water barrier or structure. I'd be glad to give you the name of who I used at another time distinct from this this is not related to your contract but that solution is an option and as I read your application it seems to me. But that is also a type of solution that might be significantly less involved than moving the entire house, particularly if it's effective, I don't know with clarity, how that would be perceived from a historic preservation CPA category, which to my understanding it's the view of the outside of the house that's critical. So, I guess, it's not a question. It's a comment, I guess the question would be, have you considered addressing the shaky unsound foundation. A wall from the inside of the house. We looked at different options to do this we haven't received received any quotes based on that because our focus was a foundation replacement but I certainly would like to take you up on your offer of getting information on the company that you had dealt with. I'd be glad to at a later point when we're, you know, not necessarily related to this particular set of deliberations, and I'd be glad to, and it not doesn't necessarily have to be that particular company. I would bring that up to indicate that it's a type of solution that can function. I would defer to General Historical Commission comments related to the viability related to the exterior view and public benefit of such a replacement. Thank you for listening to my comment, Michael. Questions from committee I see done. Yeah, I guess I'm going to just make one other comment which is, it's my understanding that the setting of a house is often considered integral to the historic integrity of the house. So, you know, many old houses are much closer to the road than we build today, at least in a suburban setting. And so moving this house back from the road would probably affect its historic value or integrity I wondered whether Robin might comment on that. I do see that these, these owners have about four acres, a pretty large yard and so there's plenty of room to move the house, but I just wonder whether it would actually end up diminishing its historic integrity. Thank you. Thank you, Doug. Robin, I see your hand is up. Moving it, it all depends on the circumstances I mean one of the moving houses was, I think, pretty common some time ago and so like the form bees for the historic inventory in Massachusetts, you know they have a checkbox for whether the house has moved or not. So, I think it depends on where and, and for what reason, but it's not it's not a yes or no answer. Thank you Robin. Are there other questions or comments from committee members. Okay, so Michael I just like to remind you that there were a couple of questions related to historic preservation restriction, which is apparently a requirement so the committee would welcome a communication from you related to those committee member questions. If you wish to to respond to that. Before our subsequent meeting next next week, we do have a public meeting public hearing next week on December 7. After which we will the after the public comment portion of which we will begin to discuss the general projects and funding and how we will approach these. I'd like to invite you to communicate any last comment. If you wish, Michael, it's not required but I just would like to give you the opportunity. No, I do want to thank everybody for their time consideration and I appreciate the information of contacting Nate below I certainly will get a hold of him within the next couple days and discuss this a little bit further and based on the conversation I have with him I certainly will present the response to the committee and answer the questions that you have raised. Thank you, Michael I appreciate your patience. You were unfortunate to have the last slot in our meeting and sometimes they run a bit longer than scheduled. So if we have any additional questions for you, we will email you. Thank you again for joining us and for your interest in application to our committee. Okay, thank you. Appreciate it. So Holly I guess Michael can be moved back to the attendees. Robin your hand remains up. Do you have an additional question or comment. No, I'm done. Okay. So, ran a little bit longer than we had hoped that seems to be the trend per possibly subsequent cycles we might allocate 20 minutes to presentations instead of 15. The next item on our agenda is financial updates before we do that. I see that a hand is up from Dave Zomac I'd like to invite Dave to speak. Yeah, thanks and I'll be very brief, because I know you want to get to the financials I just want to let you know that town staff have met with the folks who live near. I know that Ryan, Ryan Harb sent in some material from from the community that neighborhood earlier we had a really productive two hour meeting with representatives of the of the association and we're continuing those conversations and I'm working with with Ray Harb and our DPW staff to really look at some of the concerns that were raised. And whether any of those can be dressed, dressed at that site or at or perhaps looking at alternative sites so I just wanted the committee to know, and we should hopefully have more information for you a week from tonight. Thanks. Wonderful thank you for updating us that on that day that certainly important information. So the next item on our agenda is financial update. Let's see if I can manage this one tonight. So the financials have not changed very much except for right now this one particular line. So we did receive information from the state on our state match. We have been promised, I believe it was just about $398,000 as our FY 23 match, which just the first payment came in last week. So we received the round one support from the CPA that was $292,625,000. We should be getting another approximately $105,000. So this has just changed very slightly with the next payment that comes in. Hopefully that will get us to the almost 400,000 mark for our state match and that that will bring everything up just a tiny bit more. I believe when we were looking at this last time we had about a $741,000 shortfall when and if we get the next $105,000 we'll be looking at about $620,000 shortfall. So still estimates partial payment has been received the additional payment should hopefully be coming in soon. So that's really all there is on the financial side right now if anybody has any questions. I didn't Tim have his hand up first, forgive me. It doesn't really matter but okay thank you. I had two quick questions one the first is just an observation Holly that you dated both of these reports saying this one was dated November 7 as was the last one I kind of like to use the latest date to know which one was current picky point but you don't mind. Oh, the one. I'm sorry the one that was in the packet is dated 1130. What's that. Oh, I didn't change it on the top I'm sorry. Okay, so it's number 30 got it. Thank you. I will correct that one is somewhat related to the finances that is what happened to the cemetery proposal that was all xed out during in our packet and we never did heard a presentation is that proposal off the board now or are we going to be considering that. Oh no I'm sorry in the in the packet. I only included the questions for tonight's proposal the cemetery proposal was wasn't that last week. So tonight in the packet losing my memory we talked about that last week. Okay. Last week or the first week I forget which. Okay, fair enough. Nope. Yes, it's so what I've been doing with the questions and answers is just trying to give you the questions for the proposals that were going to be hearing tonight so you're not picking through 20 proposals and all the questions and answers so I just I understand. My, my error. Thank you. Thank you, Tim. Doug. Yeah, I guess I got a little bit of confusion when Holly when you were explaining the state match. So the number 292 that's on there is just what we've received so far. So far that is correct. Yes. So if I wanted a picture of how it's going to end up when we need to make a decision. Where do I see that. So when, when we start our deliberations likely next week, I will do probably two iterations of this one with what's received so far and one with what's we've been promised. I don't really change the numbers until the money's in our hand because you know we never know what is going to happen. Originally that estimate there was 275 the same as it is in the next year. So slightly more now more has been promised we will do like I said when we get to the deliberations I will have an updated number there that we can work off of because we have been promised it we just don't have it in our hands yet. That makes sense. And can you tell me what that number is. We've been promised. I mean, you know, I think, as I prepare for the conversations. It's helpful to know, well, are we trying to whittle $700,000 off of all the asks, or are we only trying to whittle off 500,000. So the we've received an email from the CPA trust. I think it was 398. I'm looking it up real quick here. I think it was 398 325 right Sam. Correct. 398 325. All right, so there's about another 100,000 to come in. Yeah, it's about another hundred. The year end balance. Or the the shortfall is probably 100,000 less than we're seeing here in terms of a target to think about. That's that is correct. Is my still sharing my screen is that's what she just said about the 600. Okay. It was 105,000 difference. Yeah. Thank you, Rick. Matt. Now, similarly, are we going to see any changes to the estimate of the assessed local tax or is, is, is that not going to change until the financial year ends in May of next year. June of next year. We do not change that because we will have absolutely no idea how much money we're going to get it until June 30 of 2024 till the very end of the fiscal year so that remains an estimate throughout the entire year typically. I am, I am thinking we may begin to just bump this up by a very small amount every year because we've been keeping the same estimate and it typically does go up a little bit. So I'm thinking of maybe slightly adjusting, you know, adding $100,000 a year or something like that because things will go up. But right now, no, we will not be changing that one. Right. Because in the, in the document from the, the community preservation coalition. It said that the assessed local tax for Amherst and I don't know which year this was was 1,391,840. So that's kind of different than 1,100,000. I agree, but that assumes everybody is going to pay their taxes and pay their taxes on time and have them paid before June 30. And that's a deception. I don't necessarily want to make up behalf of every taxpayer in the town of Amherst. Okay. I for one, I'm glad you're in the position you're in. Any other questions from committee members on the finances. I have one question and it doesn't need to be answered this evening. I see your hand dug. And just for the purposes of potentialities. I know what the current mortgage rates are on a house that they've gone up 30 years to 7.12 or thereabouts. You know, approximately how much less from, you know, either prime rate, what, what a borrowing rate might be, should we ever decide to go that route. Do we have any indication my assumption is that it's a bit less given our town status than the in the bond market mortgage rates. Is there any indication or could we get an indication related to that at the onset of our discussions. Yes, so we I've been actually working fairly closely with our financial advisor in the last several weeks on some other things going on in the town of Amherst. And so right now they are estimating. I believe between four and 5% for borrowing where we used to be able to use a, you know, closer to three, maybe once in a while before but now they're saying probably four to 5%. So borrowing costs certainly, you know, will be and have been going up slightly but that really is, it's very hard to say. You know, we sweat our financial advisor gives us as an estimate, but if a project is delayed and a project, you know, we do borrowing but they're not going to build it for two years. It could be higher or lower at that time so there really are just rough estimates until the borrowing actually happens. That's quite helpful. Thank you. Doug. I guess I was just wondering if maybe I don't know if it's Sam or Holly could talk a little bit about the numbers for the lines that are listed as budgeted reserve and how we decide what to reserve and what to spend and what the considerations are about that. Two different questions you want to describe what a budgeted reserve is. Okay, so I'll start with that one. So the budgeted reserve. So in FY 24 proposals we did not allocate out every dollar that we had available to us. And basically what would happen is if we didn't set this money aside, it wouldn't be available for us to use in FY 24 it would have to roll over into next year's. So there was a proposal on the table that we were unsure of. There have been times where a proposal has come in late, an emergency type proposal, something came up and we wanted to allocate out additional money, but we had already given out everything that we had estimated. So in the past on some occasions we have chosen to do a reserve. So as of June 30th 2024, if we have not used that money, it automatically just goes back into the pot. But if something else were to come up in FY 24, and it was within what we have set aside for reserve, we could, you know, pull together another meeting make another recommendation send it to town council and an additional project could be approved. So, if we use it on something else, obviously we can't use it towards our FY 25 proposals. If we don't use it then it is going to be available to grant out with our FY 25 proposals. As a follow up Doug. So we set that aside with uncertainty regarding the North Church. It was the dollar amount that was their request from last last year's cycle plus the 5000 for preservation restriction. We put it in budgeted reserve to retain flexibility for our committee, should we wish to act on that. In the past cycles, there have often been reserves, and when we commence with our deliberations. It's a factor that we consider in what we wish to spend it is available funding for us if we wish to spend it. This cycle we simply take a vote to move it into fiscal year 25 proposals. We go through finance committee and town council and not certain, but we've effectively accomplished that in the past, when we wished to utilize the reserve that had been set aside. So we just moved it to keep it as a possibility for us flexibility in terms of the process that we use how to do that. It's really the committee gets together talks about the proposals and we discuss. I'm interested in funding and I'll briefly go over that in a moment here. And it's a committee decision. Thank you. Thank you, Tim. You're on mute. Sorry. Again, I don't think we need to talk about this tonight, but we, I would like to talk about it before we start our deliberations and understanding how much money. We actually have allocated for the use of these projects right now we would be about 700 and some thousand short of our shortfall. But if you go and look at the debt box, one of the things we've done in past years is taken a big dollar number and decided to use debt to afford that project. So we're really concerned with the Fort River 700,000 coming online in a couple years. And I think we need to talk about that. I mean, that's a $700,000 nugget that's not in these numbers right now. So it's something to think about and talk about as we, as we proceed. Tim, certainly we would have that discussion as we commence and thank you for bringing it up now as well as prior years. I certainly appreciate your astuteness related to reading the documents. The, go ahead, Dave. Yeah, I just wanted to add I may have neglected to say and probably not the greatest context to add this but as as I look with our staff are TPW and our recreation staff about pickleball. There is a possibility a pretty strong possibility that, you know, as we look at alternatives for pickleball be it on that site. Somehow or on another site, it is very possible that the request that they put in or we put in through recreation and DPW will not be enough. So you may get an update on you will get an update on that a week from Thursday so I'll just get it out there that it's likely to be more than than that. Thank you. I'm sorry if I may as well I just wanted to I just wanted to I mean I I appreciate and understand tips concerns with the with the debt. But one of the one of the things that I just sort of want to point out is the nice thing about the debt is that a lot of them are well I shouldn't say a lot of them. They're sort of a rolling pattern here so the Fort River School one has not started yet that will likely start in well probably won't be till 2026. But if you notice rolling green is in its last year and the Kendrick Park playground so this is 10 of 10 payments five of five payments so these ones would these two here would be rolling off. As new ones you know that's sort of how you manage it is, you don't take on new things until some of the other ones are ready to. So, two of them will be rolling off and if I 25 it will be their last payment so just wanted to point that out. Thank you Holly. As a follow up to that comment I believe it would be helpful to our committee members. If we could see a spreadsheet projection going out at least a few years similar to what we've done in past years that show the debt obligations. And I assume that would have to be whatever the for new projects the estimated rates that you're talking and for old ones whatever they were bonded at. It would be helpful as committee members have thoughts, similar to the questions that Tim was raising there. So, what new members Doug and Bob who have not sat through our deliberations process. And for existing members, you know we will have a public hearing. Next week, and we don't know the extent of public comments that will take place we will exhaust any request for public comment I won't curtail their capacities will let everybody speak. In the last years it's been the second portion of that meeting where we've had the opportunity to begin deliberations and the starting point that we utilize is for all of us. And we should all think about this between now and next week to come up with a number between one and five. Representing our favorability or unfavorability of a particular project five being very much in favor of it. One being not in favor of it. The, there are questions that arise appropriately so at times in terms of what do we mean by a one in a five is it the merits of the project or the budget. It's really your own interpretation of both if I think the budget, I love the project and the budget is fine by me I might give it a five. The project is good but I have questions about portions of the budget I may differentiate I know Tim had a project last year he's like I give it a five on the merits and a three on the budget I'm giving it a four. The main thing is that all of us are internally consistent with our own ratings because what we do is we for each project everybody gives their rating five four three two one. And that just gives us a general starting point of discussions it's quite helpful in giving a general understanding and even if one of us has a slightly different internal rating system than the others. As long as we are internally consistent to ourselves. It works out in terms of clarity. The, the thing to look at when looking at these projects we've done year over year is within the plan you'll see the eligibility eligibility requirements and the criteria. Those are the inputs, along with one zone experience based in the town and favorability or unfavorability for the project that commence with the starting point we seek to be equivalent and fair to all applicants all the applications are important to every member. And as we try to do a deliberate process where we don't rush our determinations we allow all our members to discuss thoroughly any of the projects or applications or questions they might have we go through them. And then with our straw poll rating, not about one to five. Think about them, then from there. It gives us the opportunity to subsequently give a brief comment as we go through each one a one or two sentence tops comments so that other members can hear and learn something they might not have from other members. And then we hear from all the different briefs brief comments, such as I like the project and I think the budget's too high that's an example. Once we hear a brief comment from all the members on each project. At that point, members can seek to adjust their straw poll ratings, based on anything they might have heard. And then gives us a template from when we can start comparing to the budget last year. It was helpful town staff, Sean, and Holly, or Sonya actually were able to generate mock up templates of possible solutions from which we looked at each project there were many subjects of discussions such as the River School which had potential bonding issues. I don't know how we'll proceed from there but our starting point is that all of us consider the eligibility requirements, the criteria and our opinions on the projects and the presentations come up with a one to five rating and that gets us going. If you recommend, or I think it would be beneficial for anyone who's unfamiliar to take a look at the deliberations on our videos from last December, December 7, I think, and the previous year might have been December 8. If you look at the link, you'll see the big red spreadsheet with, you know, yellow green red that reflect the different numbers, the town staff have been very helpful in having adjustments to what the members rate the project so that's my brief commentary. It may seem a bit confusing. And Doug, go ahead. Yes, I just wanted to ask, do you have any preferred distribution of one, two, three, fours and fives I mean you, it doesn't seem particularly helpful if I showed up with everything's a five because I love them all. If you love them all equally. That's okay. Then you love them all equally and that is okay to us. Thank you. And other members might not in which case their, their ratings might carry more deltas but there's a limit to how detailed we can get on it. The key is that it's a starting point it gives us an opportunity to see what others are thinking. And it might be helpful to just, you know, look at the first half hour of one of our deliberations, and we go from there then we start talking the numbers, Tim raised some valid points this year in terms of what's available and what is asked. We faced a significant gap last year as well. And that would be the case for this year and subsequent years I don't know, but as long as we're all internally consistent and seek to treat all the projects and applications equally. Then we can have a starting point with good conversations and it took a long time two and a half meetings. Plus, there were a couple of three hour meetings and a half of the public hearing last time I don't know what it will take but from my posture. I view the applications is so important for those who are submitting them that it's in our interest to allow all our members to discuss and to then deliberate, which is our responsibility I believe so. I don't have any further agenda items that I didn't anticipate. So again I'll ask that everyone review the proposals review the questions that have been asked or any questions we may or may not receive additional input and arrive at the next meeting ready at some point later in the meeting. And if it goes if the commentary goes too long we won't do it but if we have the opportunity we may start later half and next week we'll see. Thank you all for staying on a longer than expected meeting. And I'll see you soon and thank you to the attendees as well for staying with us and listening. I adjourn the meeting at 831 p.m. Thanks. Good night.