 term will be used and it won't be until later on that it'll be explained and when we're talking about inclusion and safety this all ties in so I love that and I regret only that I forgot to turn the recorder on immediately upon starting the act shaving conversation I was going to change my t-shirt until you turn the recording on I have a t-shirt that I just delight in but I can't wear it in many places and it is f something company with an ed at the end yes instead of fast company it's something else company I think this is an adult show you could say the whole phrase you got it it was a website back in the day right bucked company was yeah yeah yeah yeah it was a well respected organization so here pud Kaplan that seems like a really interesting thing but it was basically a death watch for failed companies oh I remember that yeah parody news service and it was the parody of fast company of course but I don't know what that was the dot-com bust he also did blippy and tweet name and flirt 140 so he was clearly on the high road on a slightly more elevated but equally rude note there's there's a fuck up nights yes well phenomenon out of Europe where people come together in large halls and talk about their fuck ups I first encountered it in Vienna where the mayor of Vienna bless her heart stood on stage under a huge sign that said fuck up nights and talked about failures which is something you could never imagine American politician doing so just they do it every day just for grins here it is no wow very cool and I will actually connect that to the word euphemism we're avoiding using sort of but yeah so there's a whole bunch of terms here exactly so new websites to check out and then this is interesting so I way way name to site fuck in pinion which I'm brutally mispronouncing but in but intentionally because it sounded like fuck off and I way way is a personal hero so honest I'm just a t-shirt somewhere in my closet I do have a never t-shirt any of your members the parody of Steve Jobs is next it's a little cube with an bar on it love that all right so that was a fun tour I'm just connecting a couple things that we just went through to my brain and I'll just connect it to the whole notion of taglines so dearly beloved oh web three is going great nice thank you that's actually super useful there was sort of here we're sort of here with two purposes in mind one of them is what Stacy brought in the conversation a moment ago which is just we'd like to pay more attention to process and think about how things land and make we tend to run I tend to run these meetings that are relatively brisk clip meaning we bruise on by things sometimes we don't slow things down we're having interesting conversations about what weaving is and maybe going back over episodes and slowing things down to to then we've context but we haven't done much of that so we're still kind of usually proceeding at our bumpy pace down the country road and then the second framing for this call is that we've had several really interesting conversations that are clearly the start of the trail they're clearly the beginning of something interesting and important that shouldn't just be a longer conversation with lots of episodes but rather we should get involved in some of the doing and we should get involved in getting together hate grace we should get involved in more activity and we should organize ourselves a bit better and continue improving our self-organization over time in ways that are perceivable and useful to non-OGMers to anybody who wasn't in these conversations I think that's one of our goals is to feed the generative commons to be creating materials and community conversations and spaces and artifacts and so forth that are useful to the world and so in the invite I pointed out some of those conversations some of the the different threads that that we've got going one of them comes out of grace leading us into money and value two weeks ago we can't hear you you're muted that's right thank you and another one comes from our metaverse and then metaverse conversation and where that's heading another one showed up in a pop-up call yesterday which was lovely we went two hours and six minutes I think eight minutes something like that but we starting in a conversation about hey is America headed into another civil war Rob and others were sort of like poking us to hey I like why don't we actually do what we claim to do more and do more sense making and so I I poorly coined the term sense doing on the idea that maybe that's an activity that we can engage in and so partly I'm interested in opening up a conversation here a piece of this maybe maybe this is a two-part conversation one part is what's a nice way for us to organize these different threads and at what pace do we want to talk about them and where and how and what because the Thursday calls and now on this alternating format schedule we just had one pop-up call that's okay but we're not going to get things done necessarily that way it's fine if we have different paths run by different people going off in different directions as long as they feedback to the middle and then the other part of the conversation is more this ongoing thing about okay good do we put things in massive wiki do we put things into factor do we put things in like do we put things in all of the above and then interweave them right so if there if there are ways we can create dense nodes of rich information in whatever the more appropriate tool is that's really pretty cool so heading that way Pete thanks for putting the link to the to the matter most in the chat so let me pause and see who has reactions one way or the other or offers for a way to guide us through that path or whatever else and I seldom see you all this on talkative that's very strange oh where's the invite the invite last night from me about this ogm call and I just it's a couple sentences that I'm more or less repeated here in my intro which is there was the grace uh grace led call on money and value there's the better verse call there's the how do we make sense of the world call that's sprang out of the new civil war discussion and then we've had other other sorts of things all of these are really really rich there's there's also this broader conversation about that jordan put on the table about what does the meta project look like that wraps up all these projects together um and and he's proposing also something that isn't just maybe this is a three pronged conversation but he's proposing not just how do we share information and create the generative commons but how do we actually run this as a as a project how do we create project planning and and go to that level of detail and I don't know who in the group is excited about that or who would like that uh or what else I have uh this is a reminder that we have a pop-up call in an hour and a half um from yesterday but maybe I need to log in to Google groups to see the newer topics because my update is probably behind the newer stuff which call from yesterday what what pop-up call in an hour and a half here uh 10 o'clock yesterday uh 10 o'clock yesterday was when the pop-up call was correct I thought you were saying that there was a new pop-up call coming in an hour and a half from now and I was like oh I am uninformed no no no this was this was a so I'm trying to find the invite so that I might be these invites somehow oh I put it on the ogm list are you on the ogm list uh the open global mind Google groups correct here it is our Thursday ogm call since doing that's it I just don't get updates I think I get them once a day so are you set on the daily digest something like that yeah okay so it hasn't come in yet but here I am on Google groups okay great super well I I do have you did a swiss every night the couple of reactions one is I do feel this is a very supportive group for the things I'm doing um and that I've met cool people and I'm sort of on this path towards you know fundraising for this new monetary system that I'm working on and I'll talk a little bit about what I see about since doing my second reaction is I'm a little bit allergic to the the sense making kind of conversation because sense doing makes more sense to me one of the things that I have found to be concerning during these times of the pandemic and maybe a little bit before that is a disembodiment but particularly the lockdown has increased the disembodiment and so if we're talking about global health measures and looking at what actually works on the ground I think people aren't looking on the ground we've been taught to look into our computer and see what's happening and you know like rather than looking around at us and sensing and feeling and doing experiments and actually trying stuff you know I have this a lot of people come to me talking to me about like dows and you know how great dows are going to be and but there's no sense making in looking at the actual dows and what they did you know and how it actually runs and how those experiments have been running for three years and be like well maybe there's an arrogance if I'm going to do it differently I don't know but to me it feels and I help organizations with their tokenomics in the crypto space and I hear people speaking nonsense but they can speak nonsense and convince each other of nonsense and raise a lot of money on nonsense because there isn't a felt sense of what's actually happening and so this idea of sense doing speaks to me like I want to be able to touch it not just think about it and talk about it I want to touch it and see what happens which is really where I'm working and that's why I'm in Spain today I'm working I'm trying to get some cooperatives and other movements on board with what I'm doing and the people who are the most excited about what I'm doing are cooperatives and eco villages who've tried all the things that sound good on paper but they know that they don't work and now I'm telling them okay I've got a totally different thing they're like okay that also sounds good on paper but it doesn't sound like everything everybody else is you know done and even just starting with you know starting with you know this community currency thing isn't going to work with you they're like we want to talk to you because they know already because they felt it on their bodies so anyway sense doing I'm quite confused and I would like to understand more a relationship is something that is exceedingly non-tangible for example I've never been on a walk with girlfriend or possibly met him in person but I have a sense of him from these calls and pretty much nowhere else and possibly you know from some of his writings on the matter most or open global mind mail list and in a sense there is a sense that comes from interaction and I certainly understand you know I have an allergy to how do you say what did you mention the cryptocurrency the the DAOs the DAOs it doesn't I concur with you Grace in the sense that it's not touchable I've certainly been in rooms with many DAO participants in the D-Web Meetups in person here in San Francisco before the global pandemic and still I just don't get a sense of okay how are we having an agreement and is the only thing that matters in the agreement a sense of monetary value it's a confusing thing for me but I'm not exactly sure what you're saying in terms of what you want in terms of tangibility certainly Grace you and I have not walked along the beach you know pointed at the same thing together shared eye contact and well it's possible that you might say hey I know that Mark Caronza writes code if you can't avoid it and possibly help me with something and let's make an agreement to do something together in the world of coding or even that you know setting up a DAO it's it's not beyond my capabilities so something I've never found the interest in doing can you expand more about what you want in terms of this sense so this is actually a pretty good example and I would say you know I can also hold both things at once but here's a perfect this is a perfect example it's a whole bunch of people talking about incentivization in DAOs right like we're an incentivized people with funny money and completely ignoring the facts on the ground that that's not what motivates people I mean Facebook's not paying you anything right and and so like this absolute ignorance of but that's not what's motivating people so stop saying incentive when you mean I'm going to give people little tokens just say I'm going to give people little tokens and I hope that'll make them do things coerce you could you say coerce or whatever incentive is wow it's really cool being I mean I make this call every week I don't have time but I have time for this call every week so that's what I mean by this like knowing what incentive actually is so yeah I want to point out that we're we're sliding into one of the conversations that's important that I was pointing to and I'd love to I think it's an important conversation enough that I'd like to slide out of it a little bit into the meta conversation about how do we organize ourselves into dealing with issues like this and others really well because this whole notion my shorthand for this is one of the next two stacks and I'm borrowing software stacks like the lamp stack from the world of software and I think that there's a societal stack and an organizational stack and today the societal stack seems to be democracy with voting and courts and the media and you know the usual sort of program and neoliberal something or other has won that race for for now and most liberal democracies are becoming illiberal democracies for kind of on that path and then the organizational stack is c-corps and non-profits and a few other sorts of things and some some exotic little other creatures that are like the little tiny first mammals underfoot and a hundred years from now there may not be two stacks and this may be inter twingled I don't know the nation states may not matter as much they do I don't know but there's a there's active live really interesting and sometimes very stupid experimentation going on which includes this world of dows where it's like hey we can just simplify everything to smart contracts and and incentive systems and look there's a dashboard pick a task and earn some currency in our token and like woohoo we're off and running and we're going to solve civilization that's a really interesting conversation to have because somewhere over the next hundred years a couple of these are going to win and they may not be the better ones that win because typically over life history shitty mental models shitty scripts shitty political structures win and then people get like screwed for for a couple hundred years in different ways whether it's colonialism or what have you right the the the treaty of tortoisea is the I've forgotten which pope but he basically says hey explorers for Spain and Portugal when you hit new people in new countries if they don't know the name of Jesus Christ they are your vassals and everything they own is yours and you are permitted by the church blessed by the church to take them in the name of the queen or king or whatever that's the treaty of tortoisea that's a mental model that's a legal framework to go do wreak havoc on the world that caused a whole bunch of stuff that we're trying to hit undo on today right and and so I think I think part of the conversation about hey dow shmau nft whatever else or some other for or holocracy sociocracy wirearchy lowerarchy duocracy and I collect all these right part of that conversation is is like what are we going to hopefully want to live under for a couple hundred years and like leave leave to our progeny so that things so that the ship is steering toward better instead of steering toward worse which takes me back to the better verse right because for me a better verse is a place where we do that and enact those things and then sort through these models and all those kinds of things so if you'll permit me to bump our conversation up again a little bit to the the metal level about how to structure us and our conversations to tackle these things in a productive way together and and not just us but there's a whole bunch of groups around the world trying to sort these things out we are far from unique there's lots of people bumping their head on this all around the world the game be people the and I collect I have a actually I'll let me just I have a thought called communities fix communities trying to fix world problems and I've got us open future coalition global unity helena hollow chain one project society 2045 the production board the global solutions initiative earthshot prize game be all shark forum common action forum common future dent economic space agency humanity 2050 so so there there's a bunch right and and one thing I don't know how to do that I'm really interested in doing is being kind of not a unifying force in terms of there should be one ring to rule them all but a crystallizing force of some sort and if we create a good generative common space that doesn't say there must be one opinion to rule them all but rather here's how opinions meet and have sex and mingle and become better I think that's a good world do you don't mean the Chinese Communist Party do you feel or yeah I do tongue slightly in chic but not entirely oh okay and they certainly are trying that but I'm I'm talking about well-intentioned groups that are not trying to like invade our privacy and do other sorts of things but I I agree your ironic opinion about the ccp tongue slightly in chic because I mean people don't people in the west don't know the Chinese Communist Party has had ecological civilization as a constitutional plank for like 10 years nobody in the west is even close to that and for all the hypocrisy and power domination and etc of what they do there's something stunning there and I just noticed that your list didn't include political formations I was trying to use earnest communities it says communities trying to fix I have other thoughts about the political battles which are which are not connected currently to that thought which which I'm like I need to do that you're totally right yeah let's let's just you and I have an offline conversation about what the definitional boundaries or something might be there's a richness that's being missed and I appreciate the concern of what you're trying to focus on I'm not saying you know put the put the traditional political parties in there but there are you know grass roots the radical organizations of many kinds that might want to fit in there and the bridge between the ones you've got and the ones that I'm hinting at might be a very fruitful thing to look at love that kill yeah please Stacy just bring it back to the doing for a minute one one problem that I think we should try to solve for is how do we integrate some of what's happening in the chat to the main conversation and I don't mean like the off-topic stuff the stuff that actually pertains to what's happening in the call because if we could figure out to do that that's actually a small way of starting to do what I think I hear people wanting to do so there's a couple answers to that one answer is as much as I can during the call I'm watching all the stuff in the chat like the utility knives that Pete just put up there and a couple of those sorts of things and I go to those tabs in my browser and I curate all those things into my brain which seems to be like a Roche motel for information unfortunately because because it's not useful enough it's not externalized enough in the easy ways for other people to use but but I'm busy sort of harvesting and curating everything I see in the chat and the things we mentioned in the conversation and so forth and I'm putting those out openly in so far as that's even useful anybody else doing that I try to find if anybody else says hey I did that too I add their notes to the to my links to the call and I send them a link to my brain or something like that so that we can begin the weaving across but we're not doing much Pete and also Bentley created tools to take zoom chats uh pizza is called buzz saw is that right uh there's zoom chatter and link chainsaw link chainsaw I was so close I felt like something that you cut things with but that basically will will you input a zoom chat and it outputs the links that were mentioned just clean links which is really nice it's a handy utility so in our quest to automate making these calls more useful more interesting that would be one step among many to say okay good and here are all the links that were mentioned during the call and we can put that someplace right now that might be a page on the open global mind website for each of the calls or something like that but we're not I'm not I'm not actually building out a page on a separate page on the website for each call because we don't have that automation in place but those are two ways and and I think that what you're saying is right and I'm interested in anybody else's thoughts on that as well uh Klaus and then John yeah if I if I may take a turn on this because I'm really struggling with this uh a definition it distributed autonomous organization actually originated this the military right because they they developed small combat groups of around eight to ten people who are now very powerfully equipped with rocket launchers and a phone to call in artillery strikes I mean they have amazing firepower and the reason why they are autonomous is because there is always the risk of being disconnected from the base you know in the middle of a battle so they have a mission and they they are self-organizing and and they operate in a in a very autonomous manner um the the thing of course is that they have a mission which comes from a central group so they they are being told to go to a certain place and defend whatever installation or engage in in whatever form so so this idea um like like many organizational concepts coming out of the military is highly effective right because um you don't need to micromanage things that you couldn't micromanage in the first place from a central space so you have trained people who who are engaging in an autonomous fashion so in some way we're trying to do that you know with with a ton of NGOs and and non-profit groups engaging in regenerative agriculture in energy systems and innovations and so on but there is still what's missing here so you have all these autonomous groups engaging and working but there's no central mission that is clearly defined enough you know for for these groups to engage towards a common purpose that achieves a collective outcome that has to come from many sources right it's just like in the Ukraine right now that's what they're doing they're putting in these autonomous distributed teams but they're all working towards a common outcome right which is defense so so that's we are I see a lot of people running all over the place you know doing great things wanting to do great things but lacking the coordination to achieve a common outcome so I and I have no idea how how you would pray for this and I do think one of the questions at hand is how unified or how common does our mission or goal need to be and that's a that's a conversation that's a really good question for the conversations I'm trying to help us structure um John then Gil good morning very interesting as usual there is often the case very very abstract conversation like to gnaw on the thorny bone somehow we really do we really do so this is a trick this is a perceptual trick that I'm feeling the that too is another way to look at this and I'm going to suggest you we think about it as a minute as you miss this conversation you want to see what happened and you want to see it in this kind of multi-dimensional way in which we're talking about so that makes this conversation in time a trunk and there's a place you can go and and I think this has to in my mind this has to be graphic this is what I'd like from Santa Claus I'd like to be able to go to a page with variable resolution zoom in out and out I see oh there's the timeline there's some text you know keyword keyword keyword off the off the side spinning off the text maybe there's just the you know the Jerry's brain link but there's also the kind of a network mapping link or the kind of graphics display that you know a graphic facilitator might generate from the conversation if it exists and you know there's there's the potential there's the potential project list you know and there's these little things that are coming off their branches coming off the main timeline and there's an indicator on the branches so okay okay yes I can I can review what happened and I can see all the spins and all the network and all the places where this is going including the great apps which people like Peter developing which you know but the point is it's all in one place I can I can get to anything from that one page and there are indications on that page uh incomplete task or or you know good thing to do you know something like like you could pick it up here and you could complete this map and that you know if you felt so inclined that might be appreciated so that that would also be on the map something something to do here to finish this part also on the map would be you know potential actions potential projects and links so now I'm looking at this thing and I say wow wow you know I I get a sense of the whole day I get a sense of the conversation I get a sense of things that weren't obvious in the conversation because they needed more reflectivity and more time to get cranked and I also see lots of ways I see stuff that's unfinished you know there there should be instead of now when you go to a site and it's like well you know we didn't quite make it well you know it's well it's under construction so instead of that it would be look this is how far we got this is where it's trying to go pick it up or not you know it's it's like an open it's like it goes as far as it goes it tells you where it's trying to go next you can help or you can not you can say well well I'm not I don't care enough or that one's not that one's not growing that branch isn't growing that's okay it's okay we're gonna do lots of that's that stuff anyhow it's just that's a vision of the product and then you back up from the product and then you say well what would be the processes that would it would take to create a product like that thank you um john I personally love what you just described and uh when you started with variable resolution I was like yeah um because because depending on how close or distant you are from a topic you know nothing you're a newbie you need a different kind of resolution from hey you're you've been part of this conversation you just need to catch up and and you know those are different kinds of notes and and by the by things like gpt3 and other kinds of like text processing uh technology are getting extremely good so some of this summarization doesn't have to be human powered could be automated um just that but that's just a side note and I think a piece of what we're interested in is how to make effective use of different kinds of technology um one small side note are curie layos among us uh is a big fan of hypothesis which is an open source project uh run by a friend which I don't use partly because it doesn't it doesn't cohabit well with the brain but if we pick one or several platforms like maybe factor or hypothesis or other sorts of things like that as meeting points and then all of a sudden and this is why hashtags are really interesting right is that is that within each medium hashtags make hashtags in a searchable medium are a unifying force that that you know a lot of things to come together not at the level of granularity of a conversation around a page or an event like you just described John but maybe more generally around topics so I need to know what's been said about dows in dows for nonprofits you know in the last week and hashtags will help you get to like a mass of things but they won't help you pick through the mass so I think there's a bunch of things like that that we need to to avail ourselves of and we had uh Gil and then Pete and then Grace thanks John thank you for that I like that too Jerry I like the variable zoom the helicopter you know helicopter different levels of detail that kind of fluidity is something that I thrive and how my body works in the world so yeah let's let's let's have somebody do that um I want to pick up on what claus was saying I guess in the thread about you know how focused does the mission need to be is a really good question but um there's another uh let me back up there's another angle from the military analogy that you used I had the occasion about a dozen years ago to spend some time with the U.S. Army General first and only time of my life I did that and it blew my mind absolutely because here was a guy who I thought was at the pinnacle of a command and control organization where you tell people what to do no not at all that um uh he described the example he described was imagine a platoon out on patrol and there's 20 guys they're wearing packs they're carrying weapons and the lieutenant at the head of the platoon steps on a landline and dies okay any one of those other 19 people has to be able to step forward into leadership and have both the competence and the respect of the other people to be able to lead not not just not just not the next in line but any of them needs to be able to do that and so it's a kind of situational leadership that really struck me as and startled me as the antithesis of command and control something like the decentralized autonomous that we're talking about that translate that out of a military war killing you know uh metaphor frame into the kind of frames that we're talking about and how does that inform the conversation that we're trying to have so i think there's something juicy there uh other example was the which i'll put in the chat in a moment was the gossamer albatross project um pedal powered aircraft to fly across the channel somewhat 20 some odd years ago jerry you probably have that in the brain somewhere and their operational management system was very much also a decentralized thing there was a list of what needed to be done it was posted on the door of the factory every morning people would come in and say well i want to do number one i want to do number 15 and people would self choose what to do market off when done and then take the next thing so there was a coordination function that said here's what has to happen today and here are the dependencies and within that people did what they did and worked it out among themselves so um i think this is rich in very important territory and comes back to grace's challenge about incentivization this part of the bullshit of modern management is that people do stuff because you pay them to do stuff thanks y'all um 1979 is gossamer albatross yeah uh and i before going to pete and grace i just want to do a little excursion into military structuring history because it's come up several times now and i posted a link earlier i didn't check where the link was still alive about command push versus reconnaissance pull which i learned about from kenneth tyler who is in an ogm uh in the community who knows a lot about military history and basically uh command push is what we think armies work like is like there's a central command they make plans those plans go down to divisions go down you know all the way through the core to to like squads and then somebody says open the plan go execute on the plan and the plan has like detail it turns out that good armies don't do that good armies do something like reconnaissance pull which is you send small well equipped autonomous groups with that have good high communication capacities back into into headquarters into some communication system and you have them poke and sometimes when you poke at the enemy it's a trap because they've made things look weak and you fall into a trap but sometimes you poke and you break through and then they say hey we've broken through mass forces here and and push and that tends to work a lot but these units are extremely flexible and really intelligent and and hitler did not create but inherited one of the smartest armies ever created so the wehrmacht after world war one is this like really brilliant military machine that uses reconnaissance pull and blitzkrieg and a whole bunch of other sorts of things and not like there were plenty of problems inside but but but they were a really odd duck among armies in the world the and and the american military at the start of world war two is as stupid as a rock and as and as top down and hierarchical and you will get you will get court-martialed for missing the the command structures and all that kind of stuff americans are completely ill-equipped for the war structurally and they're going up against this insanely flexible intelligent like the german army was hiring the smartest people out of schools and bringing them into you know bringing them in so so metaphorically there's lots of interesting leaps over into how you equip groups one of my mentors was a cough one of the things he did for volvo was set up teams of i think it was 21 people who would assemble a car and those 21 people were an autonomous work group that was in charge of hiring firing reviewing planning scheduling what basically they were like a little wee company and all of their ids were tagged to the parts of the of the car that they made each car they built had the service records of that car would be tied to their i think long-term comp but i'm not sure and that wasn't really the this this wasn't like a compensation design system but it was an autonomous work team and these people had lots of pride of work lots of other sorts of things and it's the opposite of what we think the assembly line degenerated into which it did which was all i do is i lift this one part put it in the stamper let it stamp hope my hands don't get caught in the stamper pull it back out put it on the finish stack and and when you see repetitive work and you see how many people on earth are doing repetitive work your heart hurts sorry for the long aggression but i but i was i wanted to say that that autonomy and decentralization are are good and noble goals they've had lots of roles through history in lots of different places and they're they're like sometimes systems are not what we think they are like armies um pete then grace and hopefully you wrote down some notes and remember what you're going to say thanks jay um we could talk about so much stuff it's really cool um real quick a couple a couple things i wasn't going to talk about but have to um gil you should dig up the call from yesterday the recording from the call from yesterday and there's about 30 or 60 seconds of jack park talking about um hanging out with uh paul McCready and and crew um which it's a you know i it's like oh my gosh i was sitting in the room when jack's like oh yeah i'm parked by the you know the airport and we were chatting about stuff we had it it's interesting that you bring up gossum albatross because we had a fair bit of conversation about it yesterday and and mr allen the bicyclist who is the pilot um and the the uh anyway o2 max or whatever you max um i also wanted to in in the background i guess this was also gil and i ended up talking real quick about rug poles um this there's a beautiful i i have a little bit of i i i like to see sometimes it's nice to see nice to see really interesting parasites um parasitic things that happen in ecosystems are are to me a a measure of the maturity of ecosystems so like email spam is a scourge on the earth and i wish all the people who invented email spam you know would have stick to their knitting and not bothered us with that but at the other other in the other way um when we started having email spam oh my god everybody is starting to use email and it's and it's big enough that you you know that people care to spam it there was a time when when not everybody used email i don't know if you remember but i do um uh anyway uh an amazing parasitic thing is happening in in decentralized finance and crypto and stuff like that and it's called a rug pole um uh you get nowadays you get these investment opportunities investment um or gambling opportunities as we might think of them um in in more normal uh conversation um what it says is oh yay um you can make 10x your money overnight all you have to do is put some of the funny money uh put an equal amount of funny money and real money real crypto money in in a pool uh and within a week you're going to have a fabulous wealth um i say this as somebody who's actually making money on the non fake ones of these but anyway there's a bunch of fake ones you have to watch out for so what happens is this gets announced it goes out on on the twitters and the and the whatever's the reddits and and and a bunch of people swarm into essentially what is a roach motel um and then day you know 18 hours later 24 hours later 36 hours later the rug is pulled out from underneath and people take the the people who set up the roach motel take the real crypto they throw away the junk crypto they take the real crypto and they abscond with it so that's the thing that's happening regularly nowadays um to the tune of you know hundreds of thousands or millions or tens of millions of dollars just like that um it's really interesting to see it happen and and scary as hack and makes it reminds me that we're really in the wild west frontier with this crypto stuff but it's it's a guilty pleasure joy to see that amazing that amount of amazing parasitism um on our on our world um even though it's sad for the people who lost their money um uh john the real time mapping thing is really cool we're actually not that far away from that i think i mean in in one way we are it's going to take tons of technology development to do that but we are doing the the components of that already um so that happens uh with me and jerry me and wendy alford uh in the flotilla group uh me and wendy mclean and michael grossman and vincent arena we're all working on ways to uh the the verb that jerry and i use is crave uh crava call take the you know take the metadata of a call in the juicy bits of information in a call turn that into something that's a little bit more persistent um and then we were more that that collection of folks and others are working on dashboards and things like that so you know in in two years we could actually be doing that in real time thank you for elucidating that vision and making it um that's it's it's not something it's it you made it more coherent than we've had a discussion of uh you know in six months or whatever so um we'll come back to that description and and blow it out into a product requirements document um or whatever the agile equivalent of that is or non-agile the the construction equivalent of that if we're we're in the alliance burial the thing i wanted to talk about um thanks for listening to me and i'm sorry to take up time um jerry said and i do think one of the questions at hand is how unified or common does our mission or goal need to be and i think this is a really interesting question i've been puzzling this one for a long time um uh and the the answer to me which the the answer to me which is not really obvious but i think it's really important to think about and get right is that it's i i feel like and i've kind of been working on over the course of my tenure with ogm um small um small very focused groups of people working on a a thing that they think is super important and that they can pour a lot of energy and time and effort into um the a classic example is a collective sense commons which more or less is is a tiny organization it's me and a few other people doing stewarding um collective sense commons mostly exist to run matter most for ogm and other groups um so that's how focused collective sense commons is right it's doing one little thing and it does it reasonably well it doesn't do it perfectly um so it doesn't care about um you know it doesn't care about any of the content stuff um uh soil health or uh carbon offsets or any of that stuff it doesn't care about any content um it does care a lot about the quality of the system running and that's the thing that it cares about most so that's a really concentrated and and easy to explain example of something that you know it's it's a way the and then the opposite of it is the way that we ran the ogm forum ogm forum is kind of run the same way as as matter most um but uh ogm forum is owned and operated by ogm um mostly me and again some stewards and uh we ended up in this weird bind where ogm as a group collectively doesn't really want to manage the the bits and bobs and bolts of of managing infrastructure thing like the ogm forum um so we ended up in this bind where we couldn't make decisions very well um and uh the the whole thing kind of like blobbed out and and didn't get used for the simple fact that there wasn't a good shepherd of it ogm no offense folks ogm wasn't a good shepherd of the ogm forum um and so it it spun out of uh you know spun out of um sustainability basically um csc matter most is is opposite of that it's it's more or less a success story just because i think it was how it has management focus amount of thing um so to come back to how unified or how common does our mission or goal need to be i think i it's it's really tempting to you know decide what is most important to me most things that are important to me are that people aren't mean to animals and that we don't all die of asphyxiation and that my grandkids and great-grandkids have a place to live and and millions of people didn't die in in wars or famines or or of drought or whatever right those are the things that are important to me and we can kind of we could all kind of go around and kind of make a a big collaborative set of the things that are most important to all of us maybe we could have dot voting or a dow or whatever right we could decide what's most important for everybody um i think that's the wrong approach um because at some point uh it's like well you know there's a platform in here that i don't really care about i don't even know why i would care about it that doesn't mean a lot to my family i i actually i guess i understand why it means a lot you know an indigenous population is oppressed by um by colonists that's something i i you know can't really relate to much because i'm one of the colonists um or descendants of them at least but i can also kind of in the abstract go well that that would suck i would totally hate to be in that situation and i want to pledge some you know support into that i want to be an ally and do whatever i should to help those people at the same time that that is me splitting up my attention me not doing a good job of taking care of what i think is i i know is super important and then um and then kind of sub optimizing my support of another important goal right so i'm not saying that i shouldn't support those folks i think i should do a lot of that i think i should give them whatever the help they need but what i think should happen is that i should help them do a good job at their needs rather than trying to join their needs i'm not explaining this very well haven't haven't thought that through very well but anyway um so i think you want you want to join up with a small passionate band of folks who want to change the world and you want to be really really highly invested in whatever that is right soil regeneration or monetary policy or indigenous rights to indigenous agency you know agency over over my you know my my birth rights or whatever right you want to be really passionate about that you want to join with other people who can be really passionate with you you want to look for people who are really passionate about infrastructure right um i wish there was somebody who ran a chat server so that we could all chat you know and it's like oh well actually there's csc they run a chat server thank god i don't have to think about chat servers i can just use the csc one right um or the same thing with monetary policy i want to know somebody who's taking care of monetary policy and um i want to essentially be a customer of theirs rather than trying to figure out how to do it myself right so so then what i've described is kind of this fractured landscape of everybody is in these little groups caring about certain things um not the whole space um uh they're caring about certain things so then into that space what you need is a way for these groups to talk amongst each other right um how by the way what do you use for chat systems by the way what you know uh if we're bumping into the fact that we need to exchange our community currency into fiat what systems do you use for that you know who are the who's the little village that cares a lot about that and who can we go talk to about that um uh so we need good coordination mechanisms we need good flocking you know uh the tools and and processes to help us flock help us decide help us um make um um agreements bilateral and multilateral agreements between these little villages that are each working on their own thing and we don't have a lot of that stuff um we're we're inventing it as we go we can also borrow some there's things that we have from businesses and startups start plan and stuff like that like mo use and and compensation structures for startups and things like that that we might be able to adapt into our little flotilla of all these decentralized little groups another thing that that we might want to do again going back to Jerry's question and how unified or how common does our mission of a goal need to be I think um what what we want is for each of those people to be publishing to be able to publish in some way here's what we think is really important here's you know and and I'm going to take on the persona of an indigenous person I'm going to do this really poorly I apologize I'm an indigenous person uh you know land was grabbed away from my great grandfather and grandfather and we've been left to to starve and and have poor health care and not have the water we need and and they they put you know my all my relatives are living on crap land because the white people stole the the good land etc etc here's what's important about that here are the things that are important you know in my life when I look out and I see um I want to keep going with this but I'm going to turn into a parody of an indigenous person I don't want to do that so um so I let me let me come back to me the the things are important to me that I know about that I can describe very carefully and and clearly and succinctly that needs to get published up into some global catalog of here's the the various needs right and here's kind of a catalog or a marketplace or um uh so that so that we don't end up with a common set of goals but um lots of but we end up with uh what our society would call a marketplace of ideas a marketplace of goals and missions and things like that so that you can go inspect them talk about them be inspired by them be horrified by them um and and help guide your little ship in the flotilla towards the thing that's you know are most important and flock with the other ships moving towards the things that you're most important and away from the the other goals I think I I think it's it's easy to go well everybody's gonna have a wonderful and and lot of story goals um uh I actually guess I guess I hope you know weird um backwards way uh upside down way um you actually want lots of goals in there and some of them are going to be anti-goals for most people probably and and you know uh that's that's gonna be something um uh that uh kind of just the way I started off with uh rug poles I guess um the the sign of a mature ecosystem is that you've got a variety of stuff and and some of the stuff is bad and you have to have uh start evolving ways to protect yourself from the bad stuff so I'm sure there are there are people well we know I think we the folks here our tribe knows that there are folks who are trying to steal democracy or what how are we would describe it those people should be publishing their ideas and goals and and and where they're going into that into that space too and um and I guess we don't suppress that stuff uh we learn how to uh work around it how to select things that are good in general for everybody not not not bad um anyway long story uh long story short um let's not have so unified and common is is probably actually kind of an anti I I guess that's that's the thing it's the an anti anti goal for me um shared and distributed and decentralized and discussed um and vetted and things like that are things that I want to look for thanks thank you Pete there was a lot of things but nice to put thank you um Grace yeah so happy you have your cat back I don't have my cat back and I do need to make some oh shoot like somebody found my cat but I am 2000 miles away so that's a little bit of a problem oh right you're in you're in Barcelona and your cat is back home yeah oh shoot totally missed that part yeah it can be inconvenient but I'm gonna try and talk to my the man lady and see what I mean it means she's still in the neighborhood and she'll come back even if I'm not that anyway Pete said a lot of what I wanted to say um both in terms of the mission and in terms of how to think about these things I want to just add one piece to marketplace and the way we're thinking about it and these ways that we're thinking about mapping and matching and all these things and one of the things that we're not saying a lot but we know what we do is we say um oh I know who you should meet I know who you should meet oh there's this thing there's this thing you should read and we send it to each other and it's like there's this huge processing going on and somehow that happens and it's invisible right so that's kind of like there's a there's a respiratory system or a circulatory system there and we're ignoring it in some ways now Amazon speaking of market places Pete is not ignoring it and so this matching that we're talking about and this people should publish it and be a marketplace I think that we're talking about a kind of a circulatory system that's almost invisible to us in some ways it's like I'm you know Amazon advertises something I'm like that's exactly the kind I would like how did they know right or you know like the filter bubble and it needs to be it needs I think market place is a good word for that I think it's the right word it's just especially if you think about it in terms of the AI that you would put behind it and I feel like all of these um sense making groups and whatever we're trying to do this mapping or matching or whatever and what we're up against is pretty sophisticated AI and and then if you can create these infrastructures like I'm working in the world of money and commerce as an infrastructure issue yeah and I'm not right or for governance or for whatever it is and I'm not really exactly sure I think this is a good place to talk about that to me the again I'm like my body looks like this and it can only look I don't have wheels I want wheels right but I can't because I have a certain infrastructure here right my bones and my circulatory system and my respiratory system and my nervous system and so to me one of the why I ended up talking about money was because I know it's one of them right I know that is one of the things that we don't think about that holds us together as humanity you know art and language are also ones which are kind of I don't know that we have that much agency to change you know the way in which we speak but we certainly have visual things but when you start to change the infrastructures it's like it is the thing that is creating the boundaries and so that's what I'm thinking about this marketplace like how do you define the AI that puts these people together in a way that is productive and not destructive like what is the you know the skeletal system and so that's that's my big ink for you like what are those elements and how do we do them and you don't need a great big team and you don't need everybody on board because it's it's invisible to 98 99% of people by the way I have hope with dows because they're the wrong tool but it's the right way of thinking it's like how do we make this thing underneath that nobody really cares or knows about I agree um thanks Grace I want to everybody who's been jumping in a lot so far we'll step back for a second and anybody who would like the floor uh raise your hand like Richard just did catch my eye whatever it is Richard the floor is yours hi everybody I'm just only my second call here so I will take the great leap of so I will tell you just I'll try to make this coherent and brief but um my world uh in my professional life revolved around taking eight ounce jars of soil and doing things with them and then conglomerating them together and making decisions I'm not sure those decisions were great but they they were there nonetheless and um actually uh sort of leading off of what Grace was saying um but I would say that uh small and and Pete as well small is better you know dedication to a cause is more important than the number of people that you attract and things like that but I've thought a lot about I was a map maker or I am a map maker and so symbology was so important to me and uh originally when I made maps um or PowerPoint presentations I used every transition in the whole toolkit and this is cool and uh I would take it and do the presentation and afterwards as we were walking out of the room I'd hear people say man that was a great presentation somebody else would say what was it about and the other person say I don't know but man it looked great and so as I moved into maps the same thing happened I would take a map and put it up on the wall and the bosses would look at it and go wow there's the edge of the plume there's the edge of the hazardous waste treatment they would put their finger up on the map and point to it so eventually I started using um color ramps and I would fade things away so that there was no point to put the finger on and then ultimately I went to grayscale because uh people in different cultures you know perceive color differently and it's meaning and all that but it really really clued me into the idea that the words that we use every day these are just maps of course they're maps of uh of what we're thinking so I have gotten into the mode of thinking about the invisible circumstances and the way that I envision this is that the entropy between a brick and a house and that's kind of my my example that I've come up with recently but meaning that we can you know you can pretty much identify a brick you know what it is it stays fairly stable but that brick could move into many different avenues you know grow to a house and things like that I'm going to look at my notes real quick and make sure that I'm uh yeah so I just wanted to so the point is is that as groups are built I think that one of the measures of a of an organization of any kind of any kind of flock would be the entropy that's contained in that flock and so organized flocks that are very chaotic you know such as we see right now in you know in our united states at least um those are very difficult to pull into into any kind of reasonable uh forward path and jack park and I've spent a lot of time talking about trust and yesterday I said something and jack you know came back to me it said well what do you so uh what I said was is that uh my interest is in building trust sufficient to accomplish a goal not in building trust I don't trust is never going to be there and I will close by saying that oh one of my I will have to say that one of my superpowers is that I'm not a good coder I don't have a lot of decrees I've lived in Atlanta Georgia in the southeast all my life I have no outside view of the world etc and that's one of my great strengths because um it lets me not be deflected by uh other things that are going on and so what I was saying that jack and I were talking about um about trust and uh I think that the trick might be like a lot of us are saying is to start small but the deal is is that let's say that we have four or five groups working on things that they're all interested in um is it appropriate to to to uh banner those under OGM in other words once they go out when the military goes out with their small groups they have a certain um shall we say legal parameter for why they behave the way they do whereas we don't necessarily have that but I'll also one last closing uh at the gossamer project the list is great and I always like to say that uh who cleans the toilets and I will close with the uh the story of the fellow who was at the back of the circus shoveling um elephant shit in the bin and somebody walks by and says man that that's terrible don't you want to get a new job and the guy says what give up show business so it our view of what we're doing really matters like Stephen Briar said just now I'm not going to put it right but he said never ask a chicken per opinion of the fried chicken dish and so what we perceive is doing really really good and great things and all that that's not always true and in fact it really is true and I'll I'll even offer one as a prediction that I kind of feel like we're gonna have to get down to about five billion people again it just seems like we're at a point where the gases the particles are reacting so so rapidly that we can't control it anymore and so part of the deal is you know that indigenous people probably just want to live like they did before the bulldozers came through and how we return to that I don't really know or if we should or otherwise but anyway that's my long ramble about entropy and I think looking at systems via their energy and their entropy levels it makes them more transparent makes them more transparent to what we're trying to achieve the end um Richard thank you um two tiny thoughts we seem to be except for African Latin America we seem to be depopulating like there's plenty of countries in in Europe and Japan and a few others we're with negative population growth you're not you know 2.1 children per family is I guess zero population growth is like like stasis and we are well below that in lots and lots of countries except for a few continents that are exploding and I'm I'm really interested in terms of the larger conversations that we're having about why are people worried that we might go down to five billion people does that mean we does that mean we automatically cataclysmically go to zero I don't think so I've no I've no we wouldn't have to do genocide to do that it would just be a whole bunch of people not reproducing as much which is like not a terrible thing in my head anyway and then separately to go back to what you pointed to about small projects and to go back to Pete and also my work with Pete my best description of these little projects is tiles in a mosaic and to to to nudge that toward what we were talking about about sort of how unified do our visions need to be I'm really interested in in different people in different groups painting a mosaic an impressionist picture of what their vision is of where they think they want to go and then the tiles in the mosaic if you can find a triple word score tile meaning this tile will solve a problem for my mosaic and then OFC's mosaic and then game bees let's fund that tile and let's make sure it gets designed so that it fulfills the needs of those three different groups and then let's publicize it so that it's useful everywhere as an open source component but these little tasks can have whatever name they want what you know a crew that's passionate about doing that that piece and I don't know if that seems to maybe sort of work on some scale but I'm not sure I may be describing how open source software kind of works but I don't think I am yet and then I mentioned in the chat earlier that Unix really is just a big grab bag of utilities that happen to work well together and you chain utilities together to get something done how why don't we have social systems that are that are more like that Stacey the forces yeah I just want to bring up the idea of trust and how much is necessary to do a job you know to do a job and some of the things that were said about what's happening in the invisible so for example I had been part of a conversational community and it used all the right language about love and consciousness but the leader of that particular group was did in the way it was viewed did not treat women fairly so when I saw these women getting thrown out and I also noticed that the men who secretly agreed or not in the presence you know agreed that this is horrible they didn't step forward so between those two things that group was non-starter for me because no matter how wonderful their work would be it's always going to be tainted by that invisible thing that you can't put your finger on and eventually it's going to fall apart thank you um anyone else who hasn't stepped in yet like to step in cool and back to back to anybody who'd like to pick up where we are I threw a bunch of questions in the chat yeah you did you know when I I've been studying conversation and what we how what we do in conversation gets work done for a long time now and I noticed that we keep circling around in sense making and and we have several conversations going on simultaneously like what is sense making what we gotta do with it what can we do with it well you know how are we gonna apply it um and I think it might be really useful to slow it down and have a conversation dedicated to what is it what can we we're not going to agree on everything but what can we agree on and and then you know what are the practices that really allow us to apply sense making in very useful and ways um when we're confronted with really complex situations and I think it's been touched on numerous times the mapping is critical because it is so complex we can't hold it in our heads and we need some way of constructing a public map and I don't know if that's Miro has potential for that but I think one of the problems with Miro is that the first time I saw Miro I was there were eight other people on it and there's all these things moving and I'm trying to listen to somebody you know tell me about this and so we really need like a baseline of okay if you're interested in Miro let's walk through how to use it and maybe we have several people doing their own Miro boards and they come together and put their Miro boards together so you are assigned to listening for the emotional content you're assigned for listening to next steps you're assigned to listening for whatever and I think we need to play an experiment and find our way into how do we create these maps because that feels to me to be a really critical part without the map I keep hearing things like sort of hanging my in my head somewhere and I don't have Jerry's brain so I'm not quite sure how they interrelate and getting that visualized might take a few months to do but that to me feels like it's a very high value proposition for us to explore. Thank you Ken. Point really well made. Michael Pete Doug. I just posted something in the chat and actually relating to to what Ken just said um you know the the ability I mean what I put in the chat for those who aren't looking at it was just that the idea of this marketplace or library or commons of ideas is obviously great and we all want it you know OGM to make the thing that that is or you know this one or that one but you know Grace has a mirror you know allergy and and you know they're they're all different all different ways of looking at this stuff and if if all the things that we produce if all the knowledge that we produce that we're willing to share with others on all these different platforms and out of all these different calls could be looked at with the tools that you choose to look at you know I mean the the things about you know we we all use different email clients and have different devices and there are certain standards that allow an email or a text or an image to be looked at in through through different lenses in different platforms in different software and you know to go to the library and say I want to see which of the calls which of the the items brought up in this OGM call are in Grace's air table that she's willing to share or that are in any air table of somebody that's willing to share or are on Pinterest or are in a Google doc that includes sharing from Jerry you know this this is the fact that we're not able to recombine I said this better when I was writing I'm not articulate enough to get it across but the idea that there's all this stuff that we're generating and one off emailing it to somebody else because they should see it as opposed to putting it in the commons you know maybe with a tag to say with a with an app mentioned to say hey you should look at this but I don't want only you to be able to see this or maybe you know I want only these 10 people to be able to see this so I'm not putting it all the way in the commons but I'm making it commonly available and you can see it whether you happen to use air table or Miro or or whatever that kind of interoperability seems seems graspable and seems like you know can't be proprietary enough to say oh factor's going to be the one to do that trove's going to be the one to do that you know and I just pushing toward these standards of interoperability and I use that word till everybody's sick of hearing it seems to me what our mission you know our first mission needs to be um yeah um thank you Michael um I totally agree um Pete um thanks I I uh thank you Ken for bringing up Miro um mirrors mirrors a decent tool I I'm allergic to it too um like like some of the rest of us um that so I I think I think where it goes mirror it's tempting to say why don't we make a tool that's easy enough for everybody to use and and so yay for Miro doing that they kind of ended up in a bind and maybe Grace and I are talking about that a little bit in chat I I'm not sure that's the right thing to do um I think a better model is is to have um people who are really skilled with a tool a good tool people who are really skilled with it and then what they can do with that tool is shareable with people who don't use the tool and with people who are using other tools um so it's it's kind of a fault to and not that not that I would have seen this either but it's kind of a fault for Miro to say let's let's democratize you know democratize this so that anybody can go in and use Miro and it's like so the good things about that are multiplayer is really important um we've got Jerry stuck in the brain and uh he's he doesn't have a multiplayer tool so he's doing amazing stuff but he can only do it by himself so Miro got it right that that a tool is better if it's multiplayer um the brain got also got it wrong kind of it's hard to get stuff out of the brain it's it's not pleasant um Miro makes it reasonably easy to get stuff out of out of um itself it's got a decent API with a big caveat that um depending on how you structure the information inside Miro maybe I can get it out and and make it into an air table or a massive wiki or a factor and maybe I can't because if you made the information like graphically important but not structurally semantically important it's junk basically um uh so so anyway I think maybe maybe a I'm not quite sure what I'm saying here but I've got there's there's a thing about um it's it's really tempting to want everybody to use the tool but that's kind of the wrong approach you want people to be really good at tools and you want the tools to be really good and you want to be able to have the tools share out information to people who aren't using the tool um and then you want the the stuff to be able to go from tool to tool from virtuoso to virtuoso on the long and tools so if you kind of think about that that's kind of the way um uh music works um so think of an ensemble or something like that a piano ensemble there's a a guitar and a bass and and uh drums and and somebody uh doing stuff on piano each of those people can probably like most of them can probably you know pick up their seat and move over and sit on another tool um so the guitar player can probably play kind of blink around stuff on piano the bassist can probably play the drums but when you really want to play good music the the bassist picks up the bass the drummer picks up the drums the pianist picks up the piano and they rock out right so um people end up being good at different tools the pianist you wouldn't expect a virtuoso pianist to also be a virtuoso drummer even though there are some you know off the scale people who are um so what you do with that is you make music together you interoperate with the piano player can interoperate with the drum player and the and the drum player she can interoperate with the bassist um but they're not they're it it it's not the case that you say everybody should be able to do everything or we should pick one tool and and do that right so in a way and I'm making a really crude comparison here and I apologize to the Miro people um I love you anyway um it's Miro is I maybe it's something like kind of saying okay well a piano let's let's use you know let's center on one tool piano can make lots of sounds um I can hit it the top of it or I can think around on it or a virtuoso can sit down and play an amazing concert piano is good enough let's just use a piano that's the only tool that we'll use right to make music and let's sit everybody around the piano and regardless of their skill level skill level or their virtuosity or their physiology that lets them play a piano or the or drums well sorry drummer you've got to play on the piano you've got to figure out how to make sound on the piano right that's kind of where we ended up with Miro it's it's like one tool that fits all I'm not sure it is the best way it works very much and and I think a bunch of us are like trying to figure out how do these different tools actually interoperate what does that even mean there's been you know we've done lots of digging on that front oh and interoperability because of our culture because of our fricking capitalistic culture interoperability also includes property rights which is the weirdest damn thing to say right but um uh when you make stuff in massive wiki or you make stuff in factory you make stuff an air table or if you make stuff in Miro unless you affirm in our culture in our legal system unless you affirmatively say please take this and use it however you want legally it's locked up it's owned by somebody and you can't use it and it seems like such a simple stupid thing but I I run across this as a you know as a as a as a instrument player as a virtuoso at certain instruments I run across all the time and each of us does you know it's like oh wow look at this trove of information I could repurpose this into a beautiful massive wiki and turn it into a wonderful website except that nobody gave me the permission to do so so legally I cannot do that like I can take little snippets of it or I could point into parts of it or something like that I can play this game I'm not even going to bother so we really have to you know the somewhere pointing towards the generative comments or whatever interoperability interoperable data also includes freaking property rights and brief riff on this on what Pete just said does everybody know why we have mickey mouse to thank for this so the copyright term extension act is otherwise known as the the mickey mouse act because disney keeps trying to keep the mouse from falling into the public domain so every 20 years they extend copyright for another 20 years and denude the public domain and I and my first job in the world was at disneyland in anaheim and I'm like I hate you guys you guys are stupid evil stop it how could somebody who does bambi oh wait that's a cruel movie um we watched cruel last night for no good reason and why would you make a whole movie about cruel people like really and it's not good to not watch cruel watch incanto instead um julian mark michael and then we're going to wrap the call because we're at our 90 minutes uh that's the thing is I just came from eight to nine I was at a seminar about progression of rdf triples stores versus labeled property graphs I was really really encouraged by and it's quite seriously applicable to the discussion that's been going on so the comments I had to make aren't going to fit in a minute um do you want to take a swing or just pass and bring it back or do you want to write something on the list uh I would love to hear more about about that I mean it's also it's a good topic for free jerry's brain on monday uh yeah actually because it's a little geeky okay so warning to everybody who's on the call monday is I'll be ranting again sounds great mr cronza yeah um julian that sounds amazing if you can uh share a link if possible to that sooner rather than later that would be fantastic uh if they promise to send the slides out so let me wait for that so all righty um listening to this conversation um especially about the notion of training um I think there are got some er documents that um everyone should read um which is training um Turing's uh 19 but 35 paper um in mind on uh you know intelligence um I posted a uh uh er document from Doug Engelbart on augmenting human intellect and uh his notion of hlam t um where is that again humans using language artifacts methodology in which sick he is trained um and it's a really simple clear kind of notion about um his goal of how basically we as people can augment each other's intelligence um either through technology or you know training or you know basically what we can do together um I'll just basically suggest that um I don't know you know I'm I'm I'm was thrilled to uh hear that uh this group I'm part of um taking of course and basically some philosophers and Catholic philosophers they said we don't want to deal with the cruft of academia we just want to get people together and learn and that kind of statement um you know where people can kind of like self organize and learning communities feels like a statement of what we're doing here we're definitely not going through you know UC Irvine's social ecology program even though hey that might be uh I should have totally signed up for that had I walked across campus and knocked on their door my life would have been completely different instead I learned econometrics under Charlie Lave like like social ecology was right over there right over there exactly heard about them never inquired within stupidest move could have saved myself 40 years if I had uh taken uh cognitive science instead of architecture well you know we we grow up and uh we learn what we what we do anyway I'm on to Michael it's actually just gonna lower my hand because I have to jump to another meeting do you want to take a swing at it uh no I'll I'll I'll see the floor was it was not important all right thank you um this has been generative I I appreciate everybody's heart full conversation and generative contributions I appreciate everybody's patience because we don't have the answers in our hands yet after struggling with this for a long time I believe we make baby steps of progress here and there uh and I'm really interested in making larger leaps of progress like extremely interested um so anybody with good ideas about how to do that that'd be great grace part of what I was hoping we would talk about in this conversation and we never really sort of got to but I was trying to brush us back toward was um from the from the conversation you started about money uh it feels like there's sort of two conversations there possibly and maybe more I mean this kind of the myriad conversations but there's two that that we might be able to formulate one of which centers around you and your projects inside of that sphere and how we might be helpful and anybody who'd like to help you and like like really sort of helping create a platform that that helps you do that and then the other one is the outer envelope of the topic itself and how it fits into governance structures and that one that one can sort of be more wide-ranging and and connect into all sorts of broader things but if we only hold that one I don't think we're helpful enough to you um and so let's think about that maybe and if you wanted to host a series of calls under the umbrella of OGM if you felt like it and just say hey anybody I'm gonna have office hours on Tuesdays at this time or whatever uh and see who shows up and record them and put them back in the bin kind of thing as we're doing that would be cool but that may not be your your your taste on this but I'm interested in how do we organize to help you more concretely okay so thank you um I'm kind of dragging out a little bit because I am physically in Spain right now doing research for that and it's going to take me about another week and a half to have sort of a hopefully five minute five to ten minute presentation that really explains what I'm up to sweet um and then I also just started the workshop where I do a six week program going through these topics with people but at the end of that I'd love to lead a series within the OGM community or whatever host maybe not even lead but just kind of create a space in which we talk about these things so sounds awesome and I'm very glad we didn't get to it on this call because I yeah I need a few more weeks um thank you uh Mark if you want to post a list of your canon of the OER documents to any of the channels I'm at most or the OGM list I will I will make that a thought and connect it up because I've got most of those documents I just don't have them necessarily connected that way so the OER list would be really cool I just wanted to say it's good to see you Michael it's really good to see you um and uh certainly Ken and uh Grace and Julian and Stacy Jerry and uh of course Richard please come please come again come back um thank you all anybody with the last thought okay then let's be careful out there anybody else remember Hill Street Blues oh yeah okay pizza man