 Hey, we're live Because we give a little extra run-up so that the live stream can catch up with the YouTube video Automagically Apologize for going live earlier wasn't an apology people like just an explanation Now I do the only reason I even explain is because some people look at this on demand and they'll be like Where's the show? Why isn't the show just start when I press the play button? So there you go Hmm makes sense. Well, you can't please any of the people all of the time not about pleasing Just informative Today the rule of troll will be played by yeah, seriously, what's up with you? Looking at a movie for like you days Yeah, Jenny's in the midst of a long research project. Is that is that fair for me to fair way to put it? Yeah, describe it and it's it's making me sassy. That's what it is Doing that what it is and assessing it is making me a little sassy. I can't wait for people to find out Jenny on Twitter and Snapchat and Flickr and Friendster no I'm not a friendster. What is no one's on friends turning boards. It's all offline. I Want to do another flashback episode last time I did that. I got in a lot of trouble from people But it's so fun. We're you talk about technology that is not First time I did I think was with you Veronica Which one didn't we do like a flashback episode of buzz out loud where we pretended we read news that was old Remember that but it sounds like something we would have done Yeah, and then I did it as an April Fool's joke with Will Harris and Sarah Lane and I as and We got people got mad Yeah, because they thought they were getting a regular episode of TNT and it was a you know ten ten years ago or 20 years ago I can't remember. I think this audience would be okay with it Well, I would if I do it again, I would do it as an extra episode. I think that's what we did with BOL It was like maybe one of our Christmas bonus episodes or something Or holiday we did it for a holiday of some sort Okay, I'm retiring to behind the slate Okay, or you could do it Turn the tables or something and do it as a future tech episode. That's more difficult, but that'd be fun That requires thinking Well, I know we did it on buzz out loud because I took one of my old PC computing magazines and we just used that for the stories And that's what I would do again Meanwhile, we have a show to do right now. Should we do it? Yeah, all right New version of audio hijack ready to install right now should done that software update topic Here we go One person can't make a difference But all of us together on patreon we can daily tech news show relies on your support and Every little helps. Please give generously Daily tech news show comm forward slash support This is the daily tech news for Monday January 25th 2016 I'm Tamara joining me today. This is Veronica Belmont as she does Regularly on Mondays. How are you? I'm good. How are you? I am doing well. Thank you for asking We haven't been invaded by France though Patrick Beja is also joining us today. Explain yourself, sir. Wait, what you mean? It's not Tuesday. I've Just got the date wrong No, as you can see or if you are a Video viewer you can see all the boxes See all of the boxes. It's because I'm very busy this week And because I'm moving at the end of the week and it was much easier for me to do so today So thank you Tom and Jenny and Veronica for letting me invade Monday You're welcome Well, I think it's fine and well, I can't wait for you to get to Finland and have all that extra bandwidth to play with I think it's gonna make the show that much better. Exactly. I mean, well, let's start with some headlines This is gonna be our discussion story to Sunday evening Jack Dorsey partially confirmed reports from the New York Times and recode the top executives are Leaving the company Katie Jacob Stanton head of media Kevin Weill head of product Alex Retter head of engineering and skip shipper head of HR are all Choosing to leave according to Dorsey Recoded said one of them was being asked to leave but Dorsey said no, they're choosing to leave Also separately Jason Toff GM of Vine, which is owned by Twitter announced that he will leave Twitter to work on VR at Google adding a little fire to that Google's hiring people for VR stuff Twitter is holding a two-day leadership summit in San Francisco later this week Thanks, Captain Kipper for posting this on the subreddit Yeah, we're gonna talk more about this later in the show and kind of what it means, but yeah a little little trouble in Twitterville for sure Yeah, well like you said we're gonna talk about it, but it's it's all like is is is there really trouble? Is it just Dorsey cleaning house? Do people use Twitter enough all of that stuff? Absolutely 9 to 5 max mark German reports Apple will make a new 4-inch iPhone called the iPhone 5 se Which will have Apple pay a 9 and m9 processors always on Siri and come in 16 gigabyte and 64 gigabyte versions German is told Apple plans to announce the iPhone 5 se the week of March 14th along with new Apple launch models now this this is just German sources, but German sources tend to be actually more accurate than beneficial sources sometimes You know, I think we're really seeing now The fact that Steve Jobs isn't working on these products anymore. Obviously under his tenure The the but the name like iPhone 5 se would never have flown So now they would never do three letters in a name like 3g s Yeah, they would never do that. That's bananas or the Apple to se No, maybe maybe then it is going to be a very large iPhone That mimics the se the five special edition is just ridiculous. It's like 20 inches long No, I I think if this ends up being true, which again German has a good track record on on this stuff It will probably be a smart move to say, you know, we're gonna replace the 5c entirely We're gonna replace the 5s. He even said it sounds like they may Replace the iPhone 6 and 6 plus not the 6s is and so you'd have the iPhone 7 The 6s and then this new 5 se in the autumn once the full lineup is is created Well, I'm ready for an upgrade. So I'm excited either way. Would you upgrade to this or would you wait for the 7? No, I'd wait for the 7. Yeah, okay. Yeah, but well this this would be a smaller 4-inch phone. So I'm sure None of us would ever really it depends if it had some of the some of I mean We don't really know what the full feature set is yet But there are certain things about the 6s that I don't have that I would like Because I just have the six right now. So depending on what the feature set would be in the price points I would maybe consider it and German's sources say it's gonna have the chamfered or the sorry the the smooth edge Like the six the rounded edges. I miss a smaller phone. I really do. Oh That is that's actually surprising. I thought once you you know once you had a Bigger phone you couldn't go back to this these tiny screens. You know, it's the it's the pocket problem It's the lady pocket problem. We don't have pockets big enough to fit the phone And so I'm I have to carry a purse with me everywhere and it's pain in the butt As is a big phone Microsoft announced Cortana can now automatically create reminders for you the feature called commitments Scans your local email and suggests reminders that you can accept or reject It also alerts you to meeting requests that fall outside of your usual meeting times or are coming in last minute Commitments is rolling out to windows insiders program users first and When I read this piece of news my media thought thinking went to I'm sorry Dave This request for a meeting is falling outside of your regular parameters No, it doesn't prevent it. It just alerts you because apparently this was not the way things were when I worked at CNET But apparently Yeah, my wife says that the corporate culture where she works, which is YouTube is you just put meetings on people's calendars And unless they decline them actively the meeting happens it's never a request and So this kind of thing would become important if somebody's like hey somebody put a meeting on your calendar at 7 a.m You'd be like, okay, hold it. I need to go decline that right away. I think that's terrible. That's really that's like typical Oh, what an awful thing to do. I always ask before I send a meeting invite So do I but then a lot of them become difficult to set up because people have to respond some people don't and then you have to Find out the right time and oh is this all stemming from your inability to use doodle Patrick? Is that is that worth coming from? Kidding me. I this will be resolved later I believe a gauntlet may have been thrown I You know Google does a similar thing by the way where it will look at a Email and say oh, I'm gonna throw that on your calendar because it looks like you have an appointment I love this for movie times stuff like that Where it can just automatically have something on there and occasionally it gets it wrong and I have to reject it But most of the time I appreciate the fact that it recognizes those things So I'm I'm very much in favor of that like hey We noticed an appointment in your email and so we're gonna add that to your calendar for you And I love I love go ahead. I was just gonna say I'm giving you control over that is of course important I am excited about the the AI wars because Siri is just getting left in the dust right now and pretty much all counts She's not my favorite. We have beef. I'm sorry Veronica, but I can't find what you're asking about Ah snap prefs Miseros Marcel Piotr Brasovsky Johnny Onston and my apologies to all of them for butchering their names Posted findings on xda developers comm of features hidden in the snapchat APK for Android The chat v2 interface seems to indicate audio and video calling might be on their minds So not just if you're both on snapchat But the ability to push a notification to somebody saying hey, I'd like to talk to you like a normal call Stickers could be added into that as well different status symbols with emoticons to say whether you're talking or not Might be added to the app again. These are all things that are in the code It doesn't mean snapchat will necessarily make them available to users. I would be fun I liked I liked when Tom and Eileen and I were all playing with snapchat recently and we're like, oh my god We can do live snaps privately with each other and just have a conversation So I think yeah, yeah, and and I don't ever use it because the other person has to also be on snapchat At the same time which you don't always know whether that's actually gonna happen or not totally Android police reports at Google's game API no longer requests access to a Google plus account to access game specific services a Separate player ID is created instead now and a setting is also coming to turn off automatic sign-in No time frame was given by Google on when the changes will be implemented What do you think of that? I think for the gaming on Android is actually great giving me more control in the settings very big fan of and The idea that I don't have to tie it into Google plus also a good thing developers can still ask for Google plus ID The way they would ask for Twitter or Facebook and you can turn them down or give it to them That's up to you. It does still make me wonder how much of Google plus will be left in the end and what Google will use it for This isn't necessarily a game changer as far as that goes because they're it was over-integrated in this case in my opinion But I don't get the feeling Google's really behind keeping Google plus running. I know Go ahead Pat. It's also kind of weird that okay They're stripping Google plus away from everything But they still need a player ID to you know a player ID account thing to be consistent across the the Google Play Store So in this case, I'm not sure I understand why they're completely separating the both the two So you're gonna have a YouTube account. I mean, it's all gonna be separate It I'm not sure idea be in the background I assume so it's not like you would just log in with your Google account And then it will associate a player ID with that behind the scenes So you just also in other words so that you just log in with your Google account You don't have to log in with your Google account and hook it up to Google plus like I don't why do I need that extra step? I have a Google account. Let me log in with it. They already made us do that They already made us make Google plus accounts. So now we all have them. So just freaking use them Because I got picked on when I was a freshman. So I'm gonna pick on the freshman No, but you know then the player ID I suspect is going to be consistent across games So it's basically an additional ID, right? Yeah, now we need another ID Yeah, and again, they're talking about the api here. So I may be wrong But my assumption is there's going to be a number associated with that account for the api to identify like oh, that's that account Uh, but it's not something you'll ever see or know about It's just it's just in the code So you it already uses your google account and it separates it from the google plus account Yes, but it's still your one google account. So it's not right, which is like why did they they didn't need to add the google plus account That was just over complicating it. All right. So I guess one one more step towards Google plus being I don't know thrown to the wolves or yeah Jumped off the walls are getting it Yeah, it's the wolves are gonna save that on google plus because they will freaking murder you We have a vibrant wolf community here. There are many wolves who use google plus I will you know Not to derail this too much, but I embraced google plus quite a bit I loved it and I thought it was really a great type of different community And I'm sure some people are still using it and using it a lot. Yeah But I have noticed myself a lot less activity in the past year to you know, 18 months Even actually in the past year 20 15 when they started pulling away from google plus a little bit It's become a lot more quiet And I was part of the people who were saying who were saying I love google plus when the other You know the cool kids the facebook's and twitter who were like, oh, you're going in that ghost town is someone still using it It was not a ghost town when that was the when that's what people were saying It and I still interact with people on google plus all the time every week lots of times and I appreciate that But it does seem like google is Continuing to pull away from it Wasn't a ghost town when I was using it All right, a bit to a la condolte wanted us to note that facebook has announced plans To open a new european data center in cloney ireland outside dublin It will be powered entirely by hard hardware and software from facebook's open compute project Which aims to create energy and cost efficient open source infrastructures This is facebook's sixth data center worldwide and the second in europe the first european data center was open in luella sweden in 2013 Yeah, so it's kind of significant that they're opening another data center in europe, uh, especially given all of the the Safe harbour negotiations that are still happening this week and everything Uh, but I think the the big news that facebook would like you to talk about and which I think is legitimately interesting Is making this an entirely open compute, uh, infrastructure Um, because that's energy efficient and open source So somebody could potentially go in and look at this and say oh well I could do a data center like that as well if they had the resources and time to do so Hmm Motang wanted us to note that torrent freak has identified the world's oldest known torrent Uh, it delivers the movie the matrix in aski The torrent was created december 20th 2003 The site that originally linked to it is no longer online. You can find it on archive.org But the torrent carries on in fact torrent freak checked in on it most recently it had eight cedars Nice That's like a little piece of history right there. I think you should grab that up just to have it because why not Well, and just the idea that a tracker would maintain its momentum over 13 well 12, you know at least 12 years Yeah, uh, is impressive. That's probably dupes out there too. So Yeah, and the dupes never surpassed it So I I really hope that now it's going to become, you know, something of a challenge to keep it going As long as possible either that or the people actually still seeding it are going to go like wait, I'm still hosting that But it takes someone wanting to download it too. Not just the cedars, right? So Well, not necessarily People They could just be seeding it with no one ever download. I suppose so But I think the point is that it's actively downloaded as well not just seeded. So that's great TechCrunch reports Nigerian online Nollywood movie service Iroco has received 19 million dollars in funding from kinovic and french tv company canal Plus Iroco will use seven million dollars to strike content development deals with Nigerian studios The platform runs on the web and android and has 2500 to 3000 titles Nollywood was a three billion dollar industry in 2014 ahead of hollywood and just behind bollywood So yeah, first of all if you didn't know nollywood is the thing you should know that I do now because it's huge And it's it's people in Nigeria making movies out of small studios And then there's a like a netflix like service But it's not a streaming service because bandwidth is so limited They make it a download service and they try to compress the movies as much as possible to make them small A lot of people watch them on android phones anyway And they want to fund the content. It's the same thing that's pushing netflix I think this is fascinating where netflix is like, you know, we should just make good content and own it And in Nigeria according to this tech crunch article The the nollywood studios sometimes have a hard time getting the money together to fund their movies And so this would help the nollywood studios as well You know what I I take away I take away from this article Uh, the they put up a screenshot of the Iroco service and the featured title is called Of lago of legos. Do you do you call it legos or I think it's lagos? Lagos the husband's of lagos are five close friends who navigate a maze of intrigue secrets deceit and romance In the hustle and bustle of the city that is lagos Lagos lagos that sounds exciting. Actually lago lagos. All I know is I always had to have that airport in the pocket planes app Yeah, I had Also Veronica, I just checked before we closed that uh, that news Headlines segment here we go And I believe I was the first one to respond the last doodle No, you know what it was you okay, that was fine You were the last person to show up for the prediction show and we're all worried you weren't gonna show up Right, but I did show up in time. So he's fashionably french. So he was late I recognize actions more than words is what I'm saying Ah, I see I see that discussion is not over belmont You guys are almost as fun to watch as the husbands of lagos or legos Anyway, he goes hooray for nollywood And that is oh Thanks to our subredditors by the way the people who keep the subreddit going The people who submit stories and especially the people who vote and let us know what you're interested in get over there and help dailytechnewshow.reddit.com and that is a look at the headlines All right, as we mentioned four top executives leaving twitter Uh, could it be a clearing house? Could it be frustration? Hard to say. Uh, we also have the gm of vine going off Maybe that person just wants to investigate vr at google. Maybe it has nothing to do with anything The new york times says that later this week in that leadership summit We were mentioning twitter is expected to announce a new cmo chief marketing officer They're also expected to add two new board members. Uh, one of them is supposedly a well-known media personality Is it ashton kutcher? This is the rumor is okay. I was Rumor is ashton kutcher They haven't actually announced it yet, but it would be either ashton kutcher or an ashton kutcher like celebrity I guess perhaps be interesting to see The stock has been dropping uh, january 8th. It hit its first sub 20 dollar point at 19 dollars and 98 cents Today it was around 70 dollars and I meant to look at this before we got to this point, but Markets are closed at this point and it finished at 17 dollars and two cents So it's stock's been taking a beating rumors of acquisition or swirling around Jack dorsi was named permanent ceo just back in october He has said twitter will become the first thing everyone in the world checks to start their day And the first thing people turn to when they want to share ideas commentary or simply what's happening So he wants to be reddit It's not quite exactly that But certainly there is something happening at twitter I think the well there are two ways to look at it either you're going to say twitter is in trouble and uh, they The leadership is leaving because they don't want to be there when the ship sinks I don't think By any way you look at it the ship is sinking the worst way to look at it is that Revenue wise they're stagnating and financially. They're stagnating. They're not going They're not on a downward slope. It seems I don't know 569.24 million dollars in revenue in q3 up 57 percent year over year revenue is not bad Monthly active users are pretty stagnant. That's that's that's where they're only up 3 percent quarter over quarter and 8 percent year over year It's still growth, but it's not the kind of growth you would want to see if you think twitter hasn't leveled out Especially when they're around 300 million Active monthly active users, which is a lot of users. It's not like the network is going away anytime soon But it's now nowhere near facebook obviously, but also the the new darlings of uh, you know communication services, which are Direct messaging and private messaging services. So I think that's what people or financial analysts are looking at and saying Well, maybe twitter isn't doing as well as we would want them to do um The other explanation as you were alluding to tom is that jack jack dorsi is here And he's looking at the product and the service the way it's been in the past you know a couple of years and He's thinking that this is not the it's not being handled the way it should if they want to grow if they want to grow it And he's politely asking people to maybe move on with their lives That's yeah So this is this is the big the big rumor is that he kind of you know asked kevin wheel to leave because Jack himself is such a a product expert, you know people say And he is kind of putting in his own people into place in the product team to kind of lead the direction of what twitter It's going to look like in the next five years or so But yeah, the the growth problem is major the fact that people sign up and don't stay Don't use it is another issue a lot of people have signed up and and just don't return to twitter to continue using it And twitter is kind of seen as being in this kind of media bubble Where we talk about twitter all the time and we talk about what a big change twitter has had In media and in communication and in you know the the the way the world is going in terms of being connected online Yet mainstream as patrick mentioned it's not getting the same kind of traction as something like instagram and snapchat are Which are just growing hand over fist and becoming the places where young people especially go to communicate with their peers They're not really going to twitter in that way. I mean twitter is still very much part of the media technology bubble And I don't know if it's ever going to it's strange to me to talk about twitter is not being a mainstream app But I don't know if it's ever going to catch on the way some of these other apps are catching on even though I think it's you know great and amazing and fun to use I think it's a it's in a big way. It's a privacy thing for a lot of people You know people who young people who are using apps like snapchat and instagram tend to use them in much more private ways and people are using twitter And I think that's important to them or private messaging services too things like facebook messenger So we're seeing more of that and less of the kind of public declarations of of You know conversations and things happening as as maybe we once did Yeah, I think I think twitter has changed from being an interactive app to being a broadcast app for good or for ill Wayne and our our dts bosses slack said that media and journalists are much more in love with twitter than the consumers And you know, that's kind of the point you were making too veronica, which is If you want to like broadcast out to the world and you're a media company twitter's a great avenue for that But if you're my sister and you sign up for twitter And a bunch of people start at replying you things that you're not comfortable with you're going to retreat to facebook because You're like, you know what I can control who sees my things. I control who I talk to I feel safe here Well, the safety they have a huge they have a huge safety and harassment issue too I mean that is something that we can't overlook because They are really struggling right now to figure out ways to control the issues of harassment that are going on And it's it's not something that's easily solved and a lot of people are just retreating Like you're saying to places where they have some control over who reads their content who follows them and who they're interacting with This is definitely a problem that is That is part of the core of what twitter is. I don't know that they're ever going to be able to get rid of it And it's absolutely a real problem for sure That being said I I want to take exception to the idea that twitter is only a you know media Heaven and that normal people don't use it. I mean, it's true that in this world of of million active users or you know You're nothing 300 million seems like small a small number, but it's still a lot of people It's not like there are you know 300 million journalists using twitter I I really think that there are a lot of people who aren't journalists who really love the product and If that product it's very unique as well. You have lots of private messaging apps, but you only have one twitter. There were you know wannabes who came around and and failed to become twitter So I think the product has a huge amount of value and if it go if it went away something else would Rise up to replace it in that same, you know many to many model even though it's being used as a broadcast medium mainly it's a it's a let's say Few to everyone model or most of the people use it like that It's people who are followed by a lot of people. I don't think it's not just journalists It's customer service uses it a lot of a lot of companies use it to good effect for customer service actually But it's also it's also a way to reach people that you wouldn't necessarily have access to I mean I don't want to have to Open up my my private messaging or anything to talk with the people who want to talk to me Um, and there are a lot of people who listen to the shows and we all of us Interact with listeners all the time and that is a two-way conversation, right? It's not only broadcast So I'm just saying I think twitter does have value in that sense, which is a unique kind of value Maybe it's forever going to be limited to 300 million users And maybe it's not going to be able to grow past that but it doesn't mean that it doesn't have value as it stands So yeah, I just wanted to mention this because it's I think it's easy to get lost in the idea that if you don't keep growing forever Or if you don't reach a million a billion users, then yeah, really what are you doing with this story? Just stop messing around and and come join the the big boys club Or something to that effect, right? It's easy to dismiss twitter, but 300 million users is not nothing so But if you're if you're a company a publicly traded company trying to continually raise your profits and revenues which all companies are You need to show that kind of growth Yeah, and and I think that it's a really interesting point to say, you know, if twitter were a private company It could be fine. It could say well, you know 300 million is probably where we're going to level out worldwide as we expanded to new markets and education and get more languages Maybe we'll get to 500 million, but we're all always going to be Less than a facebook because of that And that's fine and they could accept that but I don't think a publicly traded company can rest on that And and and so the question is will they be able to make this? Unique thing patrick, I think it's a great point that there aren't a lot of other twitters out there Like it is a very unique thing. Can they make it grow again? Or is it something where it'll just end up being acquired by somebody? Well, that's I mean if you want to talk about active users I mean facebook as of the third quarter of 2015 1.55 billion Active users those are people who have logged in within the last 30 days That's just I mean that's crushing it. That is that is huge worldwide So 300 million and I want to make sure that that is twitter's active user numbers Yeah, that's where it stands now 307 million In in q3 2015. Yeah, so same same time frame there. That's I mean, it's it's not good. I mean twitter twitter was poised, you know early in the days to really be The next big thing and do you feel like it has gotten there or is facebook and instagram and even snapchat now the with its growth Is it everyone is everyone is going to leave it behind instagram's an interesting data point because it has zoomed past twitter Going from 200 million in may in march 2014 to 300 million in december 14 to 400 million in the last in q3 september 2015 That's that's showing substantial growth. I mean that is a That is a big, you know on the graph of growth. That looks good. That looks good to investors and that's problematic No, I'm not saying twitter is you know, I'm not saying they shouldn't See growth and I'm sure they would be happier if they were growing and I would be happier if everyone in the world was using twitter Because I like it a lot more than facebook still You know, let's imagine that it stays at 300 million or you know hovers around 300 400 million What will happen? It's not again. I don't think it's going to go away. Maybe the stock will get a little bit lower Or what do you think? Let's get into science fiction land What do you think will happen to the company if they don't manage to grow for another couple of years? Well, I don't even think that's much science fiction. Uh, the stock stays down or tanks and somebody buys them Maybe okay, is that I mean the reason we're getting the acquisition Rumors is because the stock has been falling and people say oh well. This is something I could afford to snap up and then turn into a piece of my diversified business plan versus it being a business all on its own And I think it would still Be there and it would still be used. I mean, I just want to separate There's a sort of subconscious feeling that if it's not growing and if it's not, you know, uh, uh If the stock isn't rising and all of this It means the company and the service aren't really worth much And I just want to separate the two. I think it could the two are completely separate It depends on what you mean by what I know that's literally exactly what it means No, no, if you mean as a like an internal quality like a subject like an objective value of its quality Then you're right if you're talking about worth as far as stock market worth though Then that's the two I want to separate for us as tech tech enthusiasts and users I think the the value that of the service that twitter is providing us Is not going to change if it doesn't keep growing in user base, right? Well, I mean But if it doesn't keep growing in user base and if it doesn't keep making money And if it doesn't satisfy the people who are investing in it and well, it's a publicly traded company now But it's it's then it won't matter if we get value out of it or not if they can't stay afloat So that you know, that's very dependent on whether or not they can figure out a way to continue growing and Become profitable You're associating growth with the their business to stay afloat We're already we're already running long on this conversation And let me we're about to veer off into whether the stock market is an accurate way to run the world or not No, that's not that's not what i'm saying. No, but I just want to Okay, go ahead patrick I just want to say it's possible for a company that's stable to that to not have growth and have a Revenue model that generates profits and that stays afloat Not not having growth doesn't mean you're gonna destroy your company. Yeah That's well, and what happens is a company like del goes private For example, maybe yeah So if you're if you're if you don't want to continually, you know beat up against the marketplace You either have to have a steve jobs who could just tell the market to screw off Or you you have to take it private the way del did but But yeah, and I think that's I think twitter is making enough revenue and making enough You know that sometimes they're profitable. Sometimes they're not That that I don't think they're gonna go bankrupt But the question is like how can they how can they find their way forward independently? Hmm Let's get a quick pick based on veronica's complaint on a previous show about the constantly changing magsafe adapters And the need for those little Many we adapters as rob from damascus mariland says He's been very happy with the mag cozy. They're cheap and damn useful He says especially if you as I do have an older power supply tethered in a spot in the house that you use with several different mac laptops And essentially just takes the adapter and ties it to the power cord costs you about 10 bucks No, you never lose them. I've seen those before they are they are handy. I don't have one myself But I can see why that would be very useful. I think rob's gonna send you one Oh, does he make them? No, but they're only they're only 10 bucks. Come on. Oh, okay I will accept your price send your picks to feedback at daily tech news show dot com You can find more picks at daily tech news show dot com slash picks Rich from lovely cleveland wrote in and said When we were talking about apple's hire of dug bowman Darren was stating that he hoped that vr could maybe establish a footing this time without apple having to come in and dominate it to Set the standard and rich said well, I agree. It would be refreshing It's not like there are a bunch of small vr hardware vendors being threatened by apple Personally, I don't see much of a difference if sony facebook or apple dominate vr I guess htc is the little guy in the room But there are indie vr hardware players getting any traction that apple would quash does magic leap count If any one of these players become the de facto standard, it's the same result I think what darin was saying and some people took it as as apple hate I think what darin was saying is gosh is it have to be apple again Does it have to be apple every time would be interesting if it was not apple that made a category like what thermostats nest did it for thermostats This is a very early look at vr. I think Even thinking about apple at this point is unless they completely change the way they do things They usually wait until a technology is established and you have a number of You know, not even small players, but you have a number of players who have kind of Started to understand what the user experience and the use of this is going to be and then they figure it out better Hopefully and come in and steal the market at this point We don't even know if there is going to be any User valuable user experience or use for vr. So it's very early for for apple to get to even think about getting into this They're they're investigating for sure as they do for every major trend But they might not ever show up in that in that category And I think that's what darin was saying is it would be nice if this category Unlike tablets and phones and music players Was not the category. Let me amend my comment I think if it turns out that vr is a thing then I think apple will show up whether or not they'll Oh, I think they'll show up. Yeah. Yeah for sure if in that case you're right. Yeah Veronica do you care either way? Uh, no I think I I agree very much that apple is going to sit and wait to figure out what the next move is And then do their thing that they always do Well, that is it for this episode of daily tech news show Thank you to everyone who has joined us and that includes uh, my co-host today Uh, mr. Patrick beija. Good luck on your move. Uh, but you will still be at the same places on the internet, won't you? Absolutely, I will still be at uh on twitter, which is a very valuable service I'll be not patrick on twitter not patrick on facebook as well where I hang out from time time to time Less and less reluctantly actually and I'm also on frenchspin.com where you can find a couple of shows one about video games called pixels And one about international news That I actually recorded the last episode the latest episode of with one tom merit on last saturday So if you want to hear us Discuss and actually if you want to hear tom school me on american politics You can go listen To the latest episode where he explains to me why uh, donald trump and bernie sanders are are being Successful in the primaries. It's it's enlightening for me So it was a fun conversation and patrick made me think about some whys and wherefores and by all means I'm not saying I got it entirely right But I think we both came out of it with a little more understanding and it was great to be on with metis too Yeah, he he talks about a bunch of things happening in Germany as well and we discussed all of this together. It was a great time So go listen to that at frenchspin.com Veronica belmont, uh, of course you can ask her anything Dear veronica available at engadget. She will solve all your problems all your problems But most importantly follow me on snapchat veronica belmont one word You're just giving up twitter. You're just like snapchat. It's where it's at You guys on the snapchat where it's at guys. Yeah, do you want to see cute pictures of ronica playing with her dog? That's where you gotta go snap you gotta go you follow me on snapchat too. It's the same stupid username I have on twitter Uh, thank you to all of our patrons who make the show possible. We could not do it without you We are halfway just about like just just a hairs with shy of being halfway To getting a sixth day of daily tech news show with peter wells from australia In fact, uh, I'm chatting with peter about some ideas and maybe getting you some of those episodes a little earlier But please go And uh and support the show uh the faster we get to the next level the faster We can come up with a new milestone go daily tech news show dot com slash support As always bonus material from rich from lovely cleveland Is in the treasure chest if you support the show at the five dollar a month level on patreon you get access to the treasure chest And uh, he puts together a cut down of our pre and post show best moments every week. It's fantastic Big thanks to him for doing that. I just want to let everyone know it's there Our email address is feedback at daily tech news show dot com. Give us call five one two five nine day Let's five one two five nine three two four five nine catch show live monday through friday four 30 p.m Eastern at alpha geek radio dot com and diamond club dot tv Visit our website daily tech news show dot com back tomorrow with lil mar wilson talk to you then The show is part of the frog pants network get more at frog pants dot com Diamond club hopes you have enjoyed this brover That was a really great conversation you guys good job. Thank you. Thank you. That was fun. Sorry. We got so heated No, but that's what makes it good Good kept wanting to jump in because I was like, oh my god. And I was like, no, you guys got it covered No, that's a really good sign. I'm not sure people will understand that you it was you who said, yeah I know Well, it's just like uh, no, I'm sorry in america a company cannot long survive when it's only Well, yeah, who is doing fine. It's it's not growing I know what Patrick means like wait on the cow. Wait a second. Stop laughing for a second. No, wait Don't interrupt baronica belmont not do it not on mondays Oh Snap is something you were gonna say Yahoo's a shit show Yes, and I will hopefully verify that as a former employee that there are a lot of people at yahoo very worried right now Because their only source of value Is entirely wrapped up in owning something else's stock and the moment you take the stock away From the value of the company the company has zero value even though what I would say is true That it still has a very large user base compared to other things on the internet and it does a good job at what it does All right Can I speak now? Yeah, am I authorized to open my mouth? Yeah, you do capitalistic sensors No, I mean This is what I we're completely in agreement actually I think we're saying the same thing just looking at it from a different Point from a different angle Monetarily it is in danger obviously and it's not doing well at all But you said it yourself Jenny It's still providing the service that it was providing before and it still has a lot of users So the comparison I'm I'm doing with twitter. It's obviously too very different Different things because yahoo has gotten into media. It has gotten into Different areas and it has left its core business of You know indexing the internet pages from a long time ago, but It is still doing the performing the service it was performing before and whether or not it is doing well financially doesn't Change the fact that it's Performing that service. So let's say twitter never grows ever again It is still going to remain twitter and perform that service Understand what you mean like I don't like it just because they're still providing a service doesn't make them A company that's functioning or making profit or satisfying their investors or their shareholders like In order to be a successful company you have to do these things also as well as providing iterate on your service Well If you are you're confusing growth with A viability growth is continued success. It doesn't mean you stop functioning if you're if you're not growing What does that mean if not continued a function that doesn't mean those words don't mean anything in terms of business Of course they do of course. No, I'm not talking about business. I'm talking about the service twitter Their service is a business Allowing you to tweak things that reach other twitter users. Let's say twitter You know has 500 million revenue and 50 million profit Until the end of the day a script to do that that doesn't make me a successful business I don't care about the fact that they're a successful business. That's not what i'm talking about I'm asking whether or not twitter is whether or not us as users who aren't stockholders and investors Do we care that the stockholders are making lots of money and and you know wanting to sell or buy twitter stock But we should care because if they don't make money we don't get to use twitter anymore That's a different conversation. No, that is the entire conversation That is like if they're going to succeed and remain a company a viable business that employs people and provides a service and a product They have to show growth and make money. I think the question. I think the thing that's coming in between the two of you is An assumption about whether continued growth for growth's sake is the only thing that matters in a company And the where I start to take issue and where it does become going down the rabbit hole of wall street good or bad Is when I see people flip out about google not having continued growth because they didn't exceed their previous quarters numbers Or apple not having it and that's when I get a little queasy about it Because yeah, I am not sure there is still a market for what yahoo does past the people who are still using it by default And I would argue that twitter's Value is overstated by you patrick because it's still useful to you But it's not necessarily becoming useful to anyone else at scale Well, I'm not 300 million people. There are 300 no, but those 300 million people will continue to diminish Fairly rapidly when their children about instagram like maybe okay if if you know that if the the user base Diminishes then I agree it is going to be an issue But if there is a viable user base that the company can make money off I don't see why it means that the service is going to go away You're asking can twitter just be a small successful business. Yes And you know with with with quotes because 300 million. I don't think it's That's actually a legitimate question, which is When is it okay? Nobody expects a small business in america to have 300 million users like that would be a No longer a small business right, but when is it okay for for twitter to be like? Commoditized like it's just now it's a commodity and it's not expected to grow at some weird exponential rate I I totally am down with that that's like That's like the a different tangent that the idea of a company being for social good instead of for profit Or a company just being for like it's useful But I don't know that all twitter is going for but even if they if they make you know 15 million profit it's still a sizable amount of profit. I mean for you for social good. Yeah, well But not necessarily for a media company No, okay. Yeah, I agree, but you know it doesn't mean that Uh The the the service there are plenty lots of services that don't make 50 million profit I don't even know if they make that much profit. Let's say Let's say they do. Uh, there are plenty lots of companies that don't make That amount of profit right that don't make millions of profit. It doesn't mean they Go away or it doesn't mean they're bad businesses Yeah, I mean that's sort of the american capitalist quandary Yeah, but regardless of ideology they could exist You know making a little bit of money So what the problem is here is that unless as we mentioned unless you're steve jobs, you can't go back I mean they have predictions. They have Goals they have to accomplish They cannot go back in time and say, okay, we're not going to grow. We're just going to continue to plateau There's no plateauing in this scenario. Like that is not going to work Like that's just that is how the business of things is done and they just can't they can't plateau at this point Jack has He's you know, he has to improve he has to grow That's why things are so crazy right now and why there's so much turnover because there's so much pressure On these executives to make a product that continues growing and iterating and that's why We're talking about this at all right now Yeah, no, I understand this but let's say he fails and twitter for the sake of argument gets bought by I don't know google amazon whoever newscorp and You know, it's it becomes a little toy that they have and they're happy with the whatever 50 million Revenue profit it's bringing in and they're happy with the service as it is Well, you know that's going to be seen as a huge failure on jack's part It's going to be seen as one of the biggest technology failures in history. I agree So I agree, but twitter wouldn't go away Maybe right I mean it could go away as well, but It's I guess we have to see what happens to yahoo before I answer that question about twitter Not really yahoo could fail. Uh, and again, it's not the same kind of technology. There is no other twitter There is one You know type of social network that works exactly like twitter. There have been others that have tried to do it they've Failed and what that says to me the fact that twitter is still here and that it has a stable 300 million users Is that there is a certain amount of people that do Want to use a service like this? All right, I'm not convincing anyone here. Uh, well, I I think you're all right I I think that that you know, what happens with yahoo will be slightly informative About twitter if it happens soon enough, but patrick's right. They are different companies. So it's not predictive Uh, and and I think that what we're dealing with I think what if I'm what I'm taking from what patrick's saying is A company can be perfectly useful And valuable into itself To its users and have wildly different values on the stock market And I think veronic is absolutely right that if twitter doesn't Continue to outperform its IPO value. It'll be seen as a huge failure by its investors So you can be an instagram and you can sell for a billion dollars and be seen as a success because you returned value or you can be You know something that got sold for parts, uh, and and was dismembered There was recently a social network that that happened to whether like basically they sold it for the technology and the staff Uh, so so the question to me is which road is twitter going to go down? I think the and I think maybe this is what you're responding to a little bit patrick is The idea of twitter being a failure seems unreasonable given how useful it is for 300 million people And so you're like well, it's not it's not going to fade away You know unless they just stopped making it or they did something to undermine what makes it valuable now So is it important for us to have our tools? Driven into some huge growth thing when they could just be perfectly sustainable useful tools and is there a place for that? Yeah, I think I mean ideally Yes, it would keep growing as I was saying and and every company would grow until you know Until it explodes No, but every company would grow until they become incredibly successful and valuable I'm just wondering if the only two options are grow to infinity or fade to oblivion Or if there is a way to make a business that is just is just you know Good and works and has its users and has a revenue and has profits And that's what it is. I mean look at things like ask.com that are still around Yeah, but that's not 300 million users. Is it I mean, I don't know how many users they have but it's you know I don't know it runs it Dropbox for example, I'm not sure it's still growing immensely. Um, maybe it is maybe I'm mistaken, but let's say it wasn't growing. Yeah But are they growing? Yes, they are. I don't think they're I don't think they're your best example Okay, let's say they weren't would that be considered a failure? Let's say they had, you know, 500 million users and they weren't growing anymore Let's give an example where it's growing and has a huge user base and is still becoming a failure like reddit Yeah Like that company may not always be around because they're having major problems entirely with their, you know The people who are running the company and with profitability and you know, that's a that is a product that is growing Over hand over fist and yet still might not be sustainable And both of them have the same problem, which is that they're having trouble controlling the very thing that makes them great Which is the all all like complete freedom of speech Is running into the consequences of complete freedom of speech Hey pat, I'll I'll say this much just from my experience from our last startup that Veronica knows very well um Part of the issue is who gives you your initial funding and who your paymasters are Now if that switches over time Where there isn't a overriding concern for double digit returns on whatever the money they put into it Yeah, you're gonna be you know, you can be a little more relaxed But if you've been invested in by say a certain class of vc Money, there's an expectation for you to kind of have this sort of meteor You know meteor meteorite rise in terms of the quote unquote value of your company And I mean, you know, I mean, I agree with you You can't have a sustainable business that that makes enough money that it covers overhead and then you still have a nice You know a net profit on the side, but you know, unfortunately, you know, it depends on What part of the ocean I guess the best analogy what part of the ocean you're swimming in You know, some parts are very conducive to that other parts are like filled the sharks And you know the people fishing in those waters really want, you know, high returns for for the money they put out I I understand how startups work. I understand how you know, the world of vcs and investment and Silicon valley and and you know, uh, uh wall street works. I'm not Completely oblivious to all of this. I've not, you know, I'm not an idiot I'm just And I understand that if you don't achieve certain goals that Your investors are expecting you to achieve then you become Worth less And financially, um, I'm just Thinking about Anyway, we we're running in circles But um, it's like if you open your a restaurant with your parents and you're like Selling tackles and the the neighborhood is enjoying your tackles and you're selling the tackles every day and you have tackles Legos, but taco, you know, what's interesting pad is I also can identify with that because my parents do run a restaurant But we don't well make for that one and I understand what you mean. I mean their business Basically seen three generations worth of competitors go by the way set up over the past 25 years And you know, they don't make money hand over fist, but it still runs And it still makes, you know, uh, a small amount of profit for the operation But you know, you know, I I guess part of I think I think part of what you're trying to get is How do you define success? How do you find a successful business doesn't need to have Does it is it a a lot how much money you bring in and how much more you bring in The subsequent year or is it b how long the business can run success or can run meeting all its obligations to his employees while providing a decent product that everyone enjoys And have enough money to keep running the business year over year Well, a lot of it has to do with expectations If twitter had been started like craigslist and said like all we're going to do is 140 character messages And this is what we're going to do and that's it and we're not going to go public Uh, that would be a whole different set of success metrics than twitter Which said, you know, hey, we're an IPO and we think we're worth this many millions of dollars and hey In venture capitalists, we think we can grow on this curve. And what's happening is they are not meeting those expectations Yeah, no, I understand. You know, I think this is the most The biggest cultural divide conversation I've ever had with anyone in my life And I've spoken to many different people Um, but I'm not even talking about success, you know I the the beginning of the conversation was can twitter exist if it doesn't grow And I think maybe it can it would be absolutely it can And I think the fact that it is still growing and still used as much as it can means it can I think part of the cultural gap is in the united states if you don't Succeed people stop working on you Uh, so so one of the dangers twitter can could face is that if they don't Uh hit those heights then people start to see them as a failure Even though maybe they're not technically a failure and people quit people leave Which is why four executives leaving is is can be disturbing Yeah And and so a product that if it had lots of people who believed in it continuing to work on it Could be totally sustainable We'll suddenly have no one willing to work on it because everybody wants to work on growing properties And so it's a self-fulfilling prophecy And that's kind of what happened to frenster in my space to a certain extent Good conversation guys. Yes, I agree and I'm out of the post so we're gonna we're gonna shut this down Can we have to pick a title? I already I just picked it. I didn't want to interrupt It was too good What did you pick twitter executives migrate? Because you know the bird Yeah, that's cute Oh, right, right, right. Yeah, all right. Thanks everybody. We'll see you tomorrow. Maybe Lamar and I will fight about capitalism