 Welcome to Will Mega TV, where we focus on seeking the truth and we highlight the best in hip hop, relationships, religion, politics, law, you name it, we discuss it here. I would like to introduce to the audience, our special guest today, out of Philadelphia, Attorney Kier Rafferty Gray, welcome. Thank you for having me. Well, I'm excited about this conversation. Excited to be with you because you know you always bring it. So let's go. Well, if you would introduce yourself to the worldwide web. Of course, we here in Philadelphia know you very well. And throughout Pennsylvania, you've been making some waves. But for the rest of the world who may not know you where you come from and what you do. Let's have it. Thank you so much for giving me the opportunity. Well, my name is Kier Rafferty Gray and I'm a young girl who was born and raised in Boston, Massachusetts, and was able to leave Boston on an athletic scholarship in to go to Georgia. And in Georgia is where I first found my ability to say hey, I've always dreamed of being an attorney now I'm surrounded by people who actually those dreams are realities and now how do I navigate this to get there. I don't just really stepping out on a leap of faith because I didn't really have teachers growing up that encouraged me to be a lawyer, I didn't have access to legal minds, you know, through my parents networks, but through being in a black college and surrounded by certain excellence, I was able to get the confidence and the ability to become a lawyer and I started my career in Philadelphia at the Defender Association Association of Philadelphia as a public defender. I took that role and went to the federal defender office in the state of Delaware. Nice question. And I just want to put a quick pin in it and I want you to continue. You say you got an athletic scholarship in what sport in what school specifically did you attend. I attended Albany State University in Albany, Georgia. And I originally went on a basketball and volleyball scholarship. As time went on and I wanted to do other things I asked my coach if I can keep one my scholarship by playing one sport. So I ended up staying on the volleyball scholarship and wanted to pursue other things like pledging and all the college attributes that I never had a chance to get in touch with. Continue you pledge what you pledge. I pledge Delta Sigma theta 1994 Delta Road chapter so I'm you know, wonderful things that came about that a lot of collateral benefits sorrow sisters, you know networks all across the world that I'm so proud of and I'm still proud of proud to be a part of that illustrious sorority of Delta Sigma theta. And before I'm sure a little collateral damage came to I don't know what you're talking about. Just like, you know, I've been living the dream in my in my area of that. I've never really understood the potential of who I could be and then just looking at this journey as you just allow me to go down memory lane for a quick moment, thinking back on how like clueless I was in terms of the potential that I could tap into because I didn't I wasn't surrounded by that or encouraged. Not that I had great parents my mom was a parole officer, and my dad was a laborer he worked on the, you know, Boston water and sewer so he did those things and they were hard workers but just didn't have access to any of the professionals that could help me follow a path, not until I got to a black college and thank God I got that athletic scholarship to get me out of Boston into that environment because I don't think I'd be where I am now if I wasn't. Now, interesting so you leave Boston, you go to Georgia, or Philadelphia. I went to law school in Ohio, and in Ohio I met a few people from Philadelphia, and I'm going to tell you something about Philadelphia in law always intrigued me. Right, it was always the same everybody knows a Philadelphia lawyer. So I figured you know I'm going to start my career at the birthplace where independence was offered to some we know. I always thought that I would just stay in Philadelphia, learn how to be a great litigator and go back to Boston. But I met my husband here and 23 years later, here we are and 20 years later he and I are still, you know, trying to build something that always wanted so I'm excited about what Philadelphia has been to me. And you know so ready to give back to Philadelphia and any other area where I can learn my expertise. You joined the defender's office correct. Yes. Walk us through your professional matriculation from there. Thank you. So I joined the Defender Association of Philadelphia, seeking to become a trial lawyer litigator. I knew I wanted to be in the courtroom I knew I wanted to fight for justice. But I found something even more profound at that office and that was some great mentors who really taught me about the role of law and society and how I could really be a big catalyst for understanding both worlds right there's some judges and some prominent people in this legal field that don't understand the way society really is they they they want it to be the society they perceive, but society is very very complex in so many areas so I found my passion and my love of being able to bridge these two worlds and and develop an understanding for better outcomes for people. And from that, I wanted to take it on to the federal, you know, stage and so I looked at the opportunities in the federal defender world and I was able to become a federal defender in the state of Delaware, which I had a tremendous successful, you know, it was a really successful time there, bringing meaningful justice to people who really had accepted the fact that people only deserve certain types of justice. I've never accepted that and in my gut could not allow me to just sit back and let people get kind of misnarrated mischaracterized and disposed of. I think number of successes in the federal system in Delaware. And from that, Josh Shapiro, when he became County Commission of Montgomery County, started looking for a new chief defender to run the Montgomery County Public Defender Office. And go ahead, I'm sorry. So you had your head to Montgomery County. Yeah, on the border of Philadelphia. Yes, hometown of Kobe Bryant. Yeah, right. Exactly. How long were you there? Man, well, can I just tell you, in the beginning when I got the call from Josh Shapiro's transition team, I almost taught myself out of doing it because of course, fear and just, you know, this doubt set in as to whether or not I could actually lead I knew I had the passion and commitment to be a good lawyer. But I had never been a leader before in that capacity and I just didn't know what that was going to look like. So, you know, typical of many people and I'll say myself, go through this litany of, oh my God, can I do it? Can I will people listen to me I've always been in, I've never been an administrator stepping out on faith I went and had interviews and interviewing with Josh really helped me understand what he was trying to create out there and at least what we told me was that he really wanted a more balanced system. And I was all for that. Okay, I go out to Montgomery County. And you know what I, you know what I've discovered will that these systems are not as linear as people who had run them previously wanted us to believe. There's so much more outreach so much more output that these systems can have if you take the time to fill gaps that the systems never could fill before. And I got out there and I got to the community, and I started to share information in a real transparent way about things that they had always wanted to improve, but didn't know how no one let them in. Together, myself in the community came up with really creative ways where lawyers in the community just like in the civil rights movement, when lawyers and community team up to push in advance or better and we created a structure and standards of practice in Montgomery County that laid the foundation for future opportunities. Well that's, I don't know if you know that's where you and I first met. Yes, I remember. Yeah, you're hosting a community meeting, developing working toward developing better relationships between the black community in Montgomery County, the police and attempting to prevent, you know, police misconduct conflict between young people, and you were doing the work you just spoke of. So you, you end up in Philadelphia. So, again, my life works in this weird way it's like an assignment right I don't look for these things they just really do happen and come. I'm sitting at my desk, you know just doing my work plugging away, and I get a phone call anonymously saying, the Chief Defender of Philadelphia Ellen Greenlee is retiring. We want you to put your, your, your information and now click, and I'm like wait a minute, I've been in my co for three years. Things are going well, things are going well, Philly, but then I said wait a minute, this is where it all started. This this is a this office has a tremendous outreach it represents over 50,000 people a year you know me lives that touches and I remember what I found to myself. When I had the ability to say, I got the green light. Let's go. I have the ability to say hey, this is what I understand that these systems are not doing. Let's do this. I said to myself, I can't pass up this opportunity as much fun as I had in Montgomery County, I couldn't pass up the ability to work at the level of where the Defender Association Philadelphia reaches. And so I applied and I was told that I was the underdog, even though I was running an office and other people applying were not. I was the, the, the one that was, you know, less likely to receive this this role, but I'm glad I didn't listen to those outside voices and kept pushing. So who ultimately ultimately made the decision on who was hired. So there was a board of 30 members in the Philadelphia Defender Association and I needed to get their approval. So 30 people what didn't have to be unanimous but 30 people you didn't want it to be if you're going to be the chief. And I was selected by the board of directors for the Defender Association of Philadelphia because it is a nonprofit organization which is different than Montgomery County where the defenders is a part of county government. Gotcha. Now it, the people on that board are they all attorneys or is it a collection of people with different backgrounds. Great question. So, for the most part when I started most of them were attorneys. We really wanted to push to have more community members on the board, because there are things that attorneys can't see that community members do see. And that collective wisdom would be good. So now I think they're starting to do more and getting more community folks on that board. I would like to see a lot more, because at the end of the day the service is for the community and we need more input from that section. So you jump into the Philadelphia fire. Yeah, there is no secret it is hot and heavy here in Philadelphia. Unfortunately, crime and violence is at an all time high. And you actually kind of step in during the time where there's some political upheaval about which way the district office should go or not go the FOP is, you know, up in arms, no pun intended. What was that like. That was for me, that was right where I needed to be. And that just has a passion for fundamental fairness. That's all I swear. I don't even know where it comes from, but it's in there. I know where the system has failed a lot of people and where a system has failed their promise to advance public safety, because we have to remember at the core of our systems is supposed to be the advancement of public safety. So many areas and so many things that our system did not do that most people didn't understand that were far more destructive than constructive. And so the promise of public safety was being buried in a narrative that was being really touted as the model for which we need to accept in order to be safe. I think many people outside of the system who don't know the intricacies of the system accepted that and allow things to happen to our community members that debilitated them more so than build them up. You're no longer the head of the, the Prince Association. But during your time there, you had to handle some pretty controversial and national cases. You had the Meek Mill case centered on these long probation sentences and mass protests and hip hop artists and activists and just every day Philadelphia and hard no citizen coming out and mash free meek free meek freak meek. You had the Michael White, Sean, shelling jerk murder case, which you decided to defend yourself, which is pretty unusual right. Extremely. Whoa, she's gonna take on this one of all cases. Today we're here to talk about the case of 73 year old Richard Jones, who is, or who was murdered by some Philadelphia children at least they're being charged with his murder. Before we talk about that. I wanted people to understand the heaviness of the type of controversial cases you've dealt with in order to get your insight on the intricacies of a case like this. Share with us just a few things about the Meek Mill case and how you navigate it to that, and then definitely talk to us about this Michael White murder case. Yeah, well thank you so briefly, I wasn't Meek Mill's lawyer but we were one of the lawyers that worked on the case in terms of understanding what probation is supposed to do, and where it fails. And I think Meek Mill's case shine a light on the probation's failures that were hard to really narrate, because you know, most of people on probation and people who have deemed to be have done something wrong. So they're valueless in so many people's eyes and not worthy of standing up for when the system treats them very unfairly. And so Meek Mill who was valuable in the communities because of his stature and who he is really allowed us to move in advance on an understanding of what was happening to the Maliks, you know, to the Kevin's to whomever's that weren't the Meek Mill's that didn't have the opportunity to transcend beyond that unfair unjust and harsh overly harsh punishment that does not actually help communities but it actually it was more a anger from judges who felt like you didn't do what I said so I'm going to treat you harshly because the law allows me this tool to treat you however I feel like treating you without just justification. And so that for me was a window so that we could talk about the data statistic not just emotion, but other things to educate people on what was happening and we're still advancing better practices and policies and legislation here in Philadelphia. The problem is, well, trying to get everybody on the same page because these are really complex issues have large impacts. So that's that's that was where I jumped in with Meek Mill and I wanted to find real stories, real people who are being harmed, far more by probation than being helped. And that's not something you think about when you're thinking about people on probation, you think everybody should be moving in a progressive way. But there were so many areas where probation just doesn't have the thoughtful approach. It's mechanical, and people get really, really bogged down and not being able to move outside of their current condition. I don't like seeing that I don't like it when it happens to me my family members are anyone and this is something that I'm always going to raise awareness about is where the system fails to fulfill that promise. Just in fairness to balance of people's opinion. What about the folks who out there saying, well, he knew he wasn't supposed to be out there riding motorcycles and smoking weed and what have you, why can he just follow the damn instructions of the judge and not place himself in this position to be brought back to court. So I want to make sure and every time we talk about these issues, these are not either ors right now should be responsible and accountable for not following the rules. Two to four years sentence for that is a little disproportionate from those things that could have been far more creative approaches that would have harmed meet mill and taught him more valuable lessons than him going to jail and become a martyr, going to jail for something that most people who actually detrimentally harm people don't get that type of sentence. So it's the situation of proportionality. What inputs do we put in, in terms of the outputs that we want. Meet bill has so many things that you can debilitate in terms of whether or not he's to be a rule follower and to learn a lesson individualized lesson. But what was happening is that we only have one hammer. So everything is a nail. Give me some examples of some of those things of meat mill. Had you been the judge you would have sought to debilitate one I would have, I would have tax his pockets on this, you know, number one, I would have curtailed where he could work and perform. Beyond that, and it would have been a constant understanding to him that each time he violated it would have been a dollar side attached to the types of finds that he was supposed to give remember meet mill is not harming anyone he didn't he's not going to exhibit anti social behaviors that's detrimental society. He's just not following somebody's orders, who told you what you're supposed to be doing and what you're not supposed to be doing. So that should come with a price tag that he could afford, but also that would have harmed him a little in terms of thinking, man, I had to pay this to that. I also would have looked at his ability to go perform and anywhere he wanted to, and really curtail that. There's so many things that I could have examined that were important to be bill that I could have dealt with him in such a way versus showing the world, the exposing the issue with a unfettered authority of judges in terms of what sentences they can wield for probation. Well he did get a little piece of that I remember he was like on house arrest and unable to perform and hang out with his celebrity girlfriend and he was running all over Philadelphia. Talking to you, trying to get his image straight. Something tells me we're definitely going to have to have another interview, because we just don't have enough time tonight on this segment. Let's talk about Michael White, what he did, because remember there may be some people who know nothing about the Michael White case. Summarize what the charges were, and then walk us through it and tell us why you, out of, it's like 700 defense attorneys there, right? Yeah, there's about 500 staff and we don't do attorneys just. And so you could have assigned this case to any one of those 300. And traditionally, the head hardly ever takes the case themselves so the city was like whoa, she's doing this case yourself. Tell us why and tell us, give us an entree into what he was charged with what happened, and what proceeded from there. Well, thank you this case is a unique case and I should say this, it didn't start out with me knowing that I was going to represent this young man. I remember when he was first arrested I looked at the news and I just saw this face on news in those in eyes that had innocence that I had seen before. I have a son, I have nephews, I have cousins, and for some reason I looked at that boys eyes and I said whoa, there's something more to this story. This boy doesn't have the evil, angry face that I am used to seeing with kids who are committing crimes where Michael White was charged with homicide murder of an individual in written house square. Do you have to have an evil angry face in order to commit homicide? No, but you can sometimes certain people when you're around these in these communities, you can see either someone has a blank look. Someone has a warm look, you can tell through their facial expressions how they're dealing with the situation around them, whether or not they're used to this they've been there they don't care, or whether or not they just have a pure fear or sadness. Look, my son, if he got in trouble his eyes light up like a deer. He can't, you know he can't hide those emotions because it's really working inside him. He's not sensitized to it. And I saw that it takes people who know when you're around these communities around these children, you can see the difference in terms of how they process things that happen to them and around them. Kir what happened, what did he do. So, what was the scenario walk us through it. I have to tell you this case never heard about this case before. Tell us what happened. Yeah. I'm going to say this as a disclaimer. This case has been picked up with this documentary has been picked up by NBC universal for three part docu series so just do one filmmaker Tiger Hill was a part of he great. Oh yes he is he has been able to score NBC universal to pick this up because it's such a fascinating dynamic in terms of outward narrative and what really happened. So the outward now to Winfields on Tiger Hill. Yes, yes, we got up my neighborhood, my hoods, you know, I got you I got so yeah, it's still all Philly right we're still in Philly. Billy is a city of neighborhoods. When we leave Philly, when we come into Philly you gotta claim the hood. Yeah, from uptown right. Um, you know, the news narrative was that Michael white. Home from school from the summer delivering chicken for Uber eats to another to an individual rolls up in written house square on his bike on his way to deliver food and comes into contact with some men who are celebrating, you know, winning a big real the Skellinger Sean Skellinger is the developer that was celebrating. They had some drinks they were some other substances that were involved that they had in their system, namely cocaine, and there was kind of an unruly interaction between Sean Skellinger and the people in his car and other folks by which Michael white said something about the way that they were behaving. Was he chicken to them or cross paths. Yeah, they cross paths he was delivering he was on a food delivery to an a residential neighborhood. And as he's on his way was in a car on a bike, I'm sorry right on the bike he was on a bike, delivering chicken for Uber eats. And that's what he was doing with the Popeye's picked it up on his bike ready to go deliver it to the to the destination so that he that's how he got paid during the summer while he was home from school. And coming in contact just randomly. I was in a car with people in it who had been experiencing some intoxicants that they had taken voluntarily, and they were in a rowdy mood, put honking at people on the streets, telling them to move out the way so they can get by. And then Sean gets out of the car to, to, I guess physically confront another driver where Michael was watching this and this is all happening within a matter of seconds. I don't want you think that this has been a long time Michael comes up to the corner sees the car sees what they're doing. Here's a racial epithent which causes attention to that car. These Sean skill and to get out of the vehicle to confront a driver who's in his way. And that's what Michael says, you don't have to act like a tough guy, like because he sees the way they're acting and he says something. Well, that caused Sean skill and to turn on to Michael, go up to him within inches of his face and tell him he's going to beat the black off of him. Well, Michael here's that Michael jumps off of his bike in a defensive posture because you know, like everyone's trying to analyze this young man's behaviors. Sometimes it's instinctual if someone comes so close to your face, you don't have time to think you react. He may be a college student but he's still filled off your body. Right. I mean even college student has instincts and you know I mean people have instincts right if some fear comes to you, you'd have instinct so he jumps off the bike and pulls out a knife that he carries. While doing these things he's been robbed sometimes and pulls out this big knife that would submit to scare someone away and ward someone off. And he pulls the knife out and puts his arm out and says back up as he's walking backwards which indicates for many people that he does not want to engage. Unexpectedly, Sean decides to tackle him. Tackles him in a wrestling tackle wrestling move or a, I would say a football move because Sean was a football player as well as a wrestler bigger gentlemen I think probably 250 pounds to Mike's 170 pounds. You know of course twice Mike's age. He tackles Mike picks him up and tries to body slam him on the concrete. It's pure dope strength, pure cocaine dope strength. As well as not looking or realizing or assessing this young man has a big knife in his hand. Now the fact that Mike had that big knife in his hand and there was a portion of this that was caught on videotape. Mike is being flung in the air by Sean Schillinger and the knife is dangling in Mike's hand. He's not actually using it on this man as he is being held in the air. It's not until they go ahead video. Is this a handheld cell phone or is this security video in center city. Now you know what's so crazy. None of the security videos caught any of this but some woman who was standing in the alley. Wow, ended up catching a smidgen of this it was really quick kind of grainy. So it was really hard to see what you were actually looking at. I had a expert slow the video down for me so I could really try to get the best view possible. And what I did see in this video and I seem to be one of the only ones because I went to Larry Krasner. And I said, What are we doing what I saw is when Sean Schillinger tackled Mike and the way he did it, the inertia of their body of his body strength made him fall. They tumbled on the ground. Mike was able to get his his his foot down. Sean slips over. Bam, right on to the knife killing him instantly. Wow. Okay. And, and was he found guilty not guilty. What was the outcome. He was found. I gotta tell you why I started why I got into this. Why I try the case. You know, originally this case was with my homicide unit and they were very well capable of doing it. Okay, Mike was able to get out on on bail in this case because there were a lot of things that happened that allowed him to have bail I called the bail fund they reached out, Mark Lamont Hill, then hired Mike to be to work in a shop during the time that he was going through the process. Okay, I frequent Uncle Bobby's and I was frequenting that at that point, and I would watch this young man carefully as I, you know would see him in Uncle Bobby's just to get a feel for my instincts about him right is he, you know, a young man that's really just needs help. So one day, I decided to talk to him and say hi Michael, I don't think you know who I am. I'm cure breath and gray, and he heard my name and he put his head down immediately. So at this point he doesn't know that you have this case. He doesn't know that I'm the that I'm the chief of the office of the office he knows the lawyers who are assigned to his case, which wasn't me originally. Okay, I was running the office to the lawyers assigned to his case he knew that. And so I went up to him I just want to talk to him and say how's it going because I've always been very fascinated about this case and this is a few months into the case now. And he looked at me he said, I don't think they believe me. And I said what do you mean. He said I just don't think people believe me. And I started to dig in and what's going on with the case and some of the things that I was hearing wasn't what my instincts told me about this young man. And something just told me they needed someone who could see this young man to be a part of this case someone who has vast trial experience someone who has experienced with life experience with young kids. I heard him I really befriended him and wanted to understand from his perspective. What are you going through are you experiencing. I just knew I had to be a part of the case and I knew I had to show and bring his story to life. And so I recall the city being very racially divided around this case. And there was also some, some ageism. Oh yes. You know taking place around this case. Yes, bring us home on on what you're going to say there. He's, he was, I mean, when we, when I started to hear him, and we started to put the case together. Everything came together and made sense in terms of his perspective his community was so in the forefront for me, I had a ability to tap into resources through community I don't think people realize that's the key to to really this justice system, having everything at your disposal including community members who can articulate information that the person going through this can't. Right. That's how your lawyer gets a full picture, a panoramic view of what's really going on. But we also found other things about Sean Schellinger that really gave us an understanding of his aggression. And there were people in Florida that had known him for a lifetime, that talked about how violent he can get when he's either drinking or confronted. Wow. So in the end, guilty not guilty with what's going on, like obviously Sean is dead. Yeah, Michael and gel is what's going on with Michael what's what was the status what was the outcome. Yeah, so in the end the jury found Michael not guilty of homicide and it was, you know, I think at that time he was in voluntary manslaughter because we had really talked and worked with the district attorney to be to look at this objectively but he still went to trial on manslaughter he was found not guilty. He was found guilty of a misdemeanor tampering with evidence because as a kid he did something stupid and threw the knife on the roof, because he was afraid. And so they found him guilty of that he had two years of probation. He walked that off. He's very productive he has his own child now. So he has given life where he was looking at his life being taken away as well. And this has been such an amazing epiphany, not just for our justice system and our justice and practices but how we look at youth, their ability to to rehabilitate. But then again what's right what's balance right because this other families challenges have lost their, their loved one. And it feels unfair. But when you really think about, you know, certain things, Mike's life might go into jail for life wouldn't bring Sean back in the totalities of the circumstances really do require or did require this type of verdict. It leads me to really why we're here. I had to talk to someone who a new understood criminal justice system, a law or court, and how it impacts society in the community. Richard Jones out walking in Philadelphia, North Philadelphia. One two o'clock in the morning. And he's attacked by five or six children ages nine to 14. He ends up dead. What do you make of this. I mean, I make of this tragedy because look, no one wants to see anyone attacked in this way by anyone I don't care if they're children adults. And what I make of this is the realities of what our communities are dealing with. And I mean that with all sincerity. Sometimes we have to be able to process the outrage that we feel and understand, what are we trying to get out of this same result desired for our children for our adults for our elderly. At the end of the day of this public safety then we're going to have to be far more intentional about how we get there. And what we saw with kids as young as 10 years old, who many people are looking at as monsters and not deserving of being looked at as youth. I mean, this, this is this case feed into the hill Hillary Clinton narrative of calling African American super predators I watched the video. Yeah, they're they're taking this yellow. I mean, the orange cone that you know you would normally see in the streets while construction is going on. It's about 30 pounds, and it just slam it on top of this elderly man. Yeah. Let me tell you something does that what is that about right that's the question. That's the question we always have to get to what is that about nothing feeds into this narrative that our kids are super predators, but society itself. So if Hillary Clinton is going to label our kids super predators they're going to be treated as such, and they're going to become that. I mean think about it we're not talking about an isolated issue. We're talking about generations of lack of investments and kids lack of structure and kids, and really easily able to put them in systems and structures that treat them like super predators with what is our output in that. Have we gotten better as a society by going on this super predator narrative that says hey we need to treat kids when they do certain things like this. And what is our, what's our output from that input. To me, I'm seeing the generational consequence of those things that Hillary Clinton put in motion in the crime bill put in motion. These kids weren't even alive when she said that telling me that because Hillary Clinton called African American super predators of which I don't agree with these kids decided to leave the house and meet this man of death. Not at all, it's definitely not that myopic. What I'm saying is, these kids, sometimes when societies have resources or societies have priorities, or leaders have visions or lack thereof. They have to understand, take from when Hillary Clinton said they were super predators right. Why are we just dealing from the standpoint they're super predators they need to be treated like this. Instead of these kids are engaged in some extremely violent and aggressive behaviors. What has happened to them. What should we be investing in now so that our kids are not this angry are not this reckless and not this careless are not this violating of people's abilities to walk the streets. We are never going to solve our problems here by working on the back end and saying, Okay, now this ought to serve as a deterrent for any kid with a 10 year old and 11 year old brain that feels like they want to engage in something. We know kids don't think this way. We should know that and people in these systems who are supposed to be more thoughtful in their approach should understand that because the whole super predator aspect and the whole what what Hillary did not for the kids. Hillary drove and made it okay for us to lock kids in solitary confinement in adult prisons, messing with their psychology further. And when they got out. Who were they are they these people. Were these kids those kids were these kids locked in solitary confinement. I want to take a look at if there's like five kids. Right. I know police have been doing their their homework doing their job. Parents have turned some some children in. Yeah, I believe at least one to at least three have been have turned themselves and maybe four. And police have charged two of the four. There were at least five at the same. Yeah. One young lady who hits the gentleman over there. Why can't say she hits him ahead because they blurred out, but he's definitely swings this cone at him tells a another person to take her phone and record it. Yeah, think about that. Think about the callousness of what our kids are doing. So you're saying these kids locking so you're not, I'm talking about the larger picture here right, but I want to come back to this specific case. I am I am thinking about the kids parents right as a 10 year old I have 10 I have children in no way give it look none of our households aren't picture perfect at all our kids do things that are ridiculous. But none of them ever felt the coldness in order to be able to do something like that. What has been going on who were their parents I know the father is in jail now right was he a child that the system just basically said you're a super kid. So you get treated like this because when they lost father which father of which I believe the 14 year old girl they showed a picture of him sticking his middle finger up on his social media site like that was his profile picture. I mean, and this this is the gentleman I think he's in jail for homicide. We're thinking about who is influencing and raising these kids what are these kids getting every day I know when I had a moment where I yelled or didn't handle my children I yelled at them before going to school their whole day was horrible and you have to understand children take in all of these things and they react and mimic what they've been given. And I know that we don't want to accept that in situations where we're outraged, but that is the truth here. That doesn't mean that the kids don't need to have some accountability on what they did, but the question is going to become what is proportional. What is the output that we want to put in. And we got to remember certain types of punishment. People take differently. They meaning the same input can give the different output to some, some people so if we want to punish these kids harshly, are they going to respond. If we put them in adult jail and stick them in a solitary confinement area, are they going to respond in the way we want them to when they get out. Well, um, well it seems like you've already taken a position on on what should happen here. I didn't know I didn't what I mean by that is I hear you being very empathetic about the conditions of what's going on in society and how it impacts black kids, right. It's not just in adults, not just kids impacted this adults life, but my question is, what makes sure you little ask get up at two o'clock in the morning and go outside and do this, you know what I love to know why we're. This is what people are saying. We're with a parents. Absolutely. How do all these kids get outside this hour. Absolutely. All things they could choose to do. How do they all get on the same page and decide to attack the elderly man, even at the point when it began. One kid said, yo, yo, chill, we're going too far is what is the responsibility on the parents. What is the responsibility. Where's accountability on the parents accountability on the children. I watched the interview of the young lady's mother. I didn't like it. She says. Every, I was asleep. When she snuck out, I get it. I've snuck out. Right. I've done it. I get that. When I was a kid, I snuck out. I get that. But then she says, but you know, she's a good girl. The family was all good until dad left. And then she said she was influenced by those bad kids. So well, you said a lot of things I want to unpack the questions you asked are the best, because those are what we should be doing here, asking the questions. You don't have all the answers until you start searching for those questions that leave you scratching your head. I think the last question you asked is the easiest to understand how did all those kids get on the same page to do this. We know, I mean, we know kids flock in certain things. It takes a bold, brave kid at 11, 12, 13 years old to say to their friends who are engaged in some, hey, stop. And that's unfortunate that that's not the norm. That's an exception of the norm. But the other two questions you asked, how did they get out? Why wouldn't know you mean to tell me there's no police patrol in that area at all the seas of five young kids out there and not stop and say, who do you belong to? What are you doing? How long were they outside? Who else saw them? The only person that saw them was this this this older gentleman. I'm sorry, that doesn't fly with me, because those areas someone needs to be patrolling those areas for exactly these things. The parents aren't the parents supposed to be the first lot at the fix with their responsibility. Are parents going to be charged for this? Can they be charged? There's no charge for parents to be being bad parents. The parents need to be arrested. There's no mechanism in our system for parents being bad parents, for parents not being attentive when they're sleeping and their kids sneak out, for parents not instructing or instilling good morals. But there are systems that look into that, which is DHS. Should there be? Should there be? I know if as an educator, I know if your kid misses a certain amount of days of school, I have to report you. And that goes to the court and you'll show up in court. And if they keep missing school, they'll see your ass to jail. That's not true. We'll find you. That's not true. It goes into dependency court. And you know, my husband's a judge in this court, so he views these a lot. So parents can't go to jail for their children being constantly truant at all? They go into child welfare systems and the DHS system now works with parents and kids as to why they are truant. To be honest with you, there are some parents that don't know their kids are truant. If their kid leaves, they think they're going to school and they don't go. So there's a lot of different scenarios in this now. Has that ever been the case? Has that ever been the case? Am I antiquated? In terms of ever been the case of what? Of the parents of truant kids who were repetitive violators being sent to jail. So there are now things that trigger a neglect statute and endangering the welfare of a child statute. So if by DHS being in this home has now seen that, wait a minute, these parents are endangering the welfare of the child by things that they're engaging in. Now that is a criminal charge that can be brought because you are not only not perpetuating good morals, good behaviors, but you are damaging the kids based on what you are actually physically doing. That is a different analysis, but if parents are just inattentive, they're just not, you know, very good parents, that's going to be hard. You know me, people, you have to lock up. Oh, listen, I know. But I do think these are social conditions and issues that need to be addressed in a more uniform and targeted way. DHS has to go into this house now. And why have we heard from that? Because people want to feel secure that you are now looking into this parent who says their child's just snuck out. What mechanisms allowed him to sneak out? How often do they do this? What makes you sleep so hard that you don't get, you know, mom's fighting. Look, my kids, if they're not in this house, I don't know why I have a clock that ticks. I go and look around. If that man had shot those children. I'm sorry. If that man had shot those children who were attacking him. Nothing tells me he'd be in big trouble. I agree, because you know, we don't have a crystal ball, right? So what we would have looked at in the total tally of circumstances that these were kids who had no weapons. Right, that's what we would have been talking about because this man wouldn't have been dead by a cone that many people probably wouldn't have thought about while that would be a deadly weapon, a cone, right? So he would have been, the analyzation would have started from why did you use that much force? Right. Why didn't you use the force proportionate to what was happening? In Korea's always start to talk to go from the situation versus starting to look at where are we going wrong? Where are those touchstones that we need to make sure that we have in place so that gaps aren't so wide and kids like this aren't falling through. Families aren't falling through these gaps and people are held accountable for being parents, right? You need to be a parent. Yeah, absolutely. I should not have to parent your kid. Now, I have talked to some other attorneys about this. And there's, there's two things that are coming up. We're talking about from both sides, right? We began to talk about, well, what route does the attorneys of these children take? And one of the responses I got from an attorney, he says, well, that's my case. I'm arguing that they didn't die as a result of being hit by the cone. He died as a result of falling on the ground and hitting his head. I mean, look, those things will have to come from the autopsy that allows us to understand what exactly caused the fatal situation here. So that's a, that's a legal fact that one would have to examine. You can't just speculate that you really gotta look at the information. But I'll tell you, if I was the attorney for those kids, one of the things I'd be doing first in terms of the social constructs is looking to certify that kid as an adult and allowing them to be treated in the juvenile facility. Because the question is going to be, this kid, we know kids can't be sent to jail forever because the Supreme Court spoke and said kids can't get life in prison. So this kid will be coming back. Who do we want this kid to come back as? Do we want this kid to come back as more angry and more, more hopeless? Do we want this kid to have better opportunities and be better in their community? Well, you talked about being de-certified obviously because they've been charged as an adult. They've been charged with third degree murder. Yes. It's different. For us, common folk, first degree murder, second degree murder, third degree murder, you know what we think? Murder. We think the person's dead. Right. Right. So what's the difference? So these are legal issues in terms of the way people have constructed their ability to infectuate the homicide. Right? So first degree means you planned it out. You wanted to do this. This is just some lying in wait. You're ready for the opportunity and you know what you're going to do. Second degree generally involves more people who are intimately connected and someone just has a snapping. Like, you know, the common textbook thing is a husband walks in on his wife in bed with another person and he snaps. Right? Because he has no ability to emotionally control his behavior in that moment. That's second degree. Third degree is generally when there's an altercation of some sort. And while your actions, you intend your actions, you may not have intended the consequence of the homicide resulting. But in the heat of that, whatever it was, that altercation, that, that whatever it was, you did something that caused another person. Yes. Okay. Did I explain those? No, I understand. I understand exactly the altercation piece threw up some antenna who initiated this altercation. If it's third degree murder and that altercation is, is part of the equation, then there obviously had to be some altercation. What if, well, if they're the people who initiate the altercation. Well, that that was that shifted. That's what I'm saying. Sometimes we have a court of public opinion that doesn't take into consideration all the factors that we need to analyze in order to figure out what's the right course of action here. And so right now we only have snippets of information just like with Michael White, the information that was being fed to the public were very snippet oriented and weren't really indicative of all the details and facts. I don't understand what happened. I don't know what happened other than the video. I don't know what happened before the video. I don't know what information was doing. But secondly, you can have an altercation with someone that doesn't rise to the level of physical of physical interaction, but it escalates. And when it escalates, there are things that happened that that caused the death of another that wasn't originally intended in the altercation. I'm putting on my educators hat here, and I'm thinking that in the course of defending these young people who have to be students because of their age. The attorney is going to go back both the prosecuting in defense attorneys will go back and look at their school records right yeah. And so, I know, in terms of so in my capacity as an educator. I make these decisions about these outcomes all day long there's a student code of conduct, right. There's the state law and their mandatory reporters, right in terms of how we treat our youth and how they navigate through our school system. So a student could get a write up chose one from the chandeliers and kick the windows out right. John and Jane had a fight. Sometimes they are on the teachers last nerve. But then I have to look. The first thing I have to look at for student. After reading the write up is their status. The first thing I look for is does this child have an IP because it determines how I can move forward does and is this behavior, the manifestation of how they've been analyzed by a school psychologist. Some of my students don't have the capacity to manage their emotions, like other students, a lot of times like teachers like he should have got four days for that. And I'm like, yeah, however there's some things called rules and laws that I have to abide by. What happens if we find that some of these people charged have these social emotional ips and they were triggered. And the behavior is a result of their psychological condition. Yeah, would they walk free. Well, I don't know if they'll walk free. Look, there's still a rehabilitational aspect to juvenile justice system, right, your actions did create something and if your actions are a result of your psychological condition, that still has to be dealt with in some way right. So the juvenile justice system deals with, are they in need of read one did they commit an act that's deemed to be criminal and two, are they in need of treatment and rehabilitation. One can say that I mean there's no insanity defense here. None. This is that's a whole different scenario. If you were triggered based on something that you know, like the kids don't know and just like adults don't know the eggshell skull rule that you take people the way they are. I mean the law doesn't act in accordance, but the, the, I guess, I don't want to say the punishment but the sentence or, you know, the, the, what happens to people have to take into account, all of these things, because the goal is to advance these kids beyond where they are today. And if we missed the mark in schools to really say we need to have those heavy services here, because Johnny can't take when someone says, Hey, be quiet. Hey, stop talking. You know, those are indicators, and I would love for us to do a deeper dive like that. That's the type of analysis we need to be doing. What's been happening in schools who are these kids, do they show up, do their parents show up. What's their grades like what's their aptitude in in class like we want to know these things so we understand how to deal with the family unit and how to deal with the needs in the best way. And so we need to stop with the reactionary. You know, here's the quick solution. These are long term things that I want to see in the cities that I am in the communities that I'm in, that there's real investments into acknowledging that there are problems that exist today that didn't exist in my community. And we have to be really thoughtful about where these where these touchpoints are that we need to do more in resourcing and really be just intricate village in that that school community setting. I don't care how uncooperative the parents are. If the parents are uncooperative we trigger DHS to be involved. And if DHS is involved now the parents have to do so many things to abide by certain periods of law or else they will be held in contempt and contempt is a not, you know, something that's a separate charge, but it's a contempt charge if I as the judge and my husband, he knows this very well. If he tells you, mother, I need you to go to parenting classes and you don't, you'll be held in contempt now contempt sentence can carry up to one day short of six months, five months 29 days. And that is some of the things that could happen in terms of using that other mechanism when all other attempts have failed. I have to ask this question and then we're going to kind of wrap this thing up have a few other ending questions I really want to know from you. You know, as a system of black women, you're beautiful you're fashionable you, you are the original arch angel of the planet Earth. Well, did she, did she have to wear the body during the interview. You know what, I need to ask myself. Well, Mrs. Butter's worth this. Let me tell you something I don't tell you quick story about this. I mean that's what the people is saying I'm just repeating what I've heard. You know what though, these things send a message right these things send a message to your parents, how you appear how you show up especially for something like this. It shows what people have who has who is around them, who is counseling them, who they have as part of their village but I'll tell you a quick story. I went to a college. I was, I wasn't Harkam I can't remember which college it was and I spoke to young ladies about career development and moving on. And there was a young lady that came into the class with a stock on her head. And I said to her, young lady, if you can take the remove your scarf because the way you show up shows your confidence level shows that people take you seriously. I'm going to tell you when I asked her dude I didn't think that I was embarrassing her in front of the class. It was obvious that she had a scarf on her head. Well she came she she left the classroom after I said that. And then she waited for me and she came up to me and she said you know you didn't have to do that. You don't understand that my hair it takes a lot to get it to be the way I wanted to be. This is how I need to wrap it up you may not have the same kind of hair that I have. And I said I understand that. But there is a way is black women are always struggling with hair. Always struggling with identity and being in making sure that we're showing up in the most in a way that people will take us seriously. And I'm not saying you have to have a certain crown, but there is a certain ability to take yourself out of someone's trajectory if you're struggling up with things that are beyond that are within your control to show people that you are, you know, someone who is is serious and things like that and that it's unfortunate that we have to be dealing with this at this moment. The perception is a strong part of reality. The first thing that came to my head. When I saw her head was the man next to her. The public defender assigned to her was a white man and probably completely culturally out of touch with how black women and black people present themselves in order to be convincing. He in my opinion, did not properly prepare his client to go before television news. Her daughter is up for murder. Right. Probably the last thing she's thinking about is her aesthetics. She's like I got to save my baby right. You're saving your baby is you're you're in a public opinion presentation now. That's right. He failed her. You know what, I agree with you because I said the same thing when we when the Trayvon Martin case is going on, and the main witness Rachel Gentile was not properly. She wasn't properly supported in this situation because one of the things that we they didn't understand culturally is how people talk the vernacular they use and how it's going to be perceived. And so many people that's exactly you I mean you're so spot on with this. Many people miss the mark of these nuances because they don't really get how we're going to show up and what that is going to mean, or how to have a conversation about it and how to properly prepare you for what you're getting ready to go in front of you should not stick a woman like that in front of a news camera without properly even vetting what she's going to say. How are you going to show up in this moment when you're trying to convince the world that your kids should be looked at as a kid. If they don't like you, they're definitely not going like her. If they don't like you, they're not going to have empathy for her. So these moments when you're going on a public platform, all of those superficial things I say superficial tongue in cheek because some of them have nothing to do with who the person is, but definitely how the people see all of those things matter. And I feel like Trayvon Martin's case was was hung and lost on the words of Rachel Gentile, who couldn't express herself in a way that some jurors would have liked her to, in order to find her credible to find Trayvon's assailant guilty. These are some issues that we have to deal with when we're talking about people who are culturally in positions to help. How do they what is their learning the learning and engagement that they have to have in order to truly represent our communities. Alright, some final questions. I'm hearing rumors. Mayor judge, even some statewide political aspirations. Any truth to any of these rumors. There is truth to statewide political aspiration yes there is. I have aspiration and goals to run a statewide campaign. And I feel like right now I am the person that will be best suited for that role. And I'm going for it and I know there's a lot of hesitation for people around the community, talking about who can win who can't. I guess we won't see until it happens huh. What are you care to share what position. We are breaking news moment. I haven't formally announced and I have to be respectful to people that are helping me so that we can move forward in the way that we need to. So that we can build this campaign team and come out strong, but I know I have a lot to offer in terms of understanding. In terms of leadership, I definitely never back down from the tough fight. And this role that I'm looking at is that role and needs a person exactly with those characteristics. Well, when you decide to formally announce I would like to be one of the first to interview you within a week of time of you announcing hopefully I can get that. Okay from you. Got it. And coming on. Make sure you just subscribe to will mega TV on YouTube. We get great interviews from people like attorney care, Bradford Gray. We appreciate your support. Have a great evening.