 Hello, and welcome to today's discussion about Michaela Cole's new drama, I May Destroy You. I'm Jackie Lockinger, I'm going to be your moderator today. So if you haven't seen the show, just a little brief explain on what it is. I May Destroy You is maybe some would say a show about consent, but I think it's a little bit more complex and nuanced than that. It follows a beloved millennial writer, played by Michaela Cole named Bella, who's dealing with life after sexual assault in a nightclub. So before we start the discussion, I would like if our beautiful panellists could introduce themselves. So first up is Hiram, Hesham, sorry about that. Hello, so my name is Hesham, I'm a third year philosophy student at South and the current anti-racism officer. And so on campus I'm involved in a lot of campaigns addressing racial equality and have also received training and facilitated workshops for the enough is enough campaign. My interests are in predominantly in anti-racist activism and creating creative spaces for underrepresented groups in higher education. And yeah, that's just a bit about me, I guess. Thank you. And now I believe we have Stephanie. Hi everyone, my name is Stephanie, I'm a second year PhD student at Goldsmiths. I did my MA in gender and sexuality studies at SOAS. I participated and critiqued the enough is enough consent workshop curriculum. And my research is centered around housing insecurity experienced by African descended men, specifically looking at housing transients. But in general, I'm interested in gender race in class, and I found this topic to be something relevant to my research and I'm looking forward to discussing it. Thank you. And Rush? My name is Rush Frazier, they have in theirs pronouns. I am coming to you from Worcester, Massachusetts. I am the president of Worcester County Pride, as well as a field organizer with Neighbor to Neighbor. I've been organizing for about 15 years, across a multitude of issues. Thank you. We also have another panelist joining us later on a date as they are in a different panel, very popular. So very briefly, before we go into discussion, I just want to let the audience know, we'll be looking at three themes central to the show, friendship, sexuality and trauma. First, can I hear everyone's initial opinions on, I may destroy you. Hisha? Oh, gosh. Okay, cool. Going first. I think, I don't know, I kind of, I rewatched it last week to kind of pick my brain a bit more. And I think I found the second time I watched it even more kind of dizzying than the first time. And so I think, I don't know, this question is quite difficult, but a few of the things I can probably pick out and that I found really incredible about the show was the kind of cold capacity to put herself, to place herself into the frame, which I feel like is incredibly difficult to do, particularly because she's fictionalising her own experiences. And so I think that's kind of the highlight for the show for me, kind of putting yourself in that position to kind of absorb and to confront trauma that you're carrying around and to do that in this way, you know, for it to be on television and for it to receive the acclaim that it has. I think that, yeah, that's kind of incredible. So I think that's probably one of the biggest things that stood out for me. Rush? You know, I am coming to this panel a little bit underprepared in the last minute. You know, I thought it was such an important show, focusing on a single black woman, such a unique like perspective, you know, like a lot of the media I consume out here, you know, if we are lucky enough to see a black woman featured on television, it's usually an African American woman. And so often she's portrayed as the, you know, the comic relief. And while I made Australia was pretty funny, it was definitely incredibly real. I could identify with so many of the characters. I just kind of had the same feeling about the series the way that one would, you know, kind of cherish a good book in that, you know, I had to put it down so many times and press the pause button and kind of take a little bit of a walk around my apartment just to really like think over the themes and like how many intersections to the lives of my friends and my own life. I'll stop there before I continue gushing. Thank you for that, Stephanie. Yeah, thank you for that, both of you. So we were on lockdown when we were trying to watch the show. So just as Rush said, I think that made it all the more heavy, like you couldn't even run from it. So that that definitely influenced how I thought about it. Sitting with it and, you know, procrastinating on my schoolwork. I compared it to three things and don't judge me for this. I compared it to law and order SVU. Fleabag. And this is the far I really don't want you to judge me for. Twelve years of sleep. I'll explain why. Don't judge me. Don't judge me. I'll get to the point. But obviously it's very much like law and order. SVU in that, you know, this sexual violence occurred. The police are investigating it. But rather than focusing from the perspective of the investigators, it focused on the person who experienced the violence. So I think in that way, it's very clear. But what it did really well in my opinion was that it didn't give you the satisfaction of like solving this crime, which I think is really important when we're centering the stories of black women, because so few black women who experience, which is a lot of us, experience sexual violence, get to have that sort of gratification. And so not having it in that, you know, you know, grapple ball around it, storytelling type of way was really important. So in that way, I was comparing it to SVU. Fleabag. I think it was really like Fleabag. I think there were sort of mirror images of one another. I mean, they're both like millennial women in London, living life, being sexual, doing stupid things. They're both kind of like not exactly lovable characters. You know what I mean? Like you were like, but why would you do that? And in that way, like the complexity of that character made it so much more realistic. Like you can see yourself in that position. You've all been there night drinking stuff happens. You could see you to put yourself in her shoes and like it is all the more scary. So in that way, like I compared it to Fleabag, just seeing how different the reception of this show has been compared to the accolades and discussions around Fleabag and how far people have shown away from from discussions about this show in particular, compared to the reception of Fleabag. OK, so 12 years late, like I said, don't touch me. OK, 12 years of slave, I don't watch that show or that show, that movie for the meta narrative. I watch it for Patsy because that story was like the first time that I've heard and felt the story of an enslaved woman who was experiencing all kinds of trauma and hurt and depression in this structure and system and never seen it portrayed in that way before. I think that's what that film did really well. Like I was in particularly invested in Solomon Northup's story. And I think that's part of why it is that Lupita Nyong'o won the award and not him, right? So I compared this show to 12 years of slave in that for me, as much as like I was invested in the story of Arabella, I was really, really shocked at the story of Kwame. So I'll pause there and get back to it. Thank you. I love the way you work it down. I would say what stood out to me is the fundamental Britishness of the show. Just similarly to what you said, Roche, I think it's so very rare that for me in this decade, definitely, there is a British show about black British people living in London that isn't to do with racism they're facing. That is like hugely, you know, like riots or anything like that. Obviously, like the theme of riots and, you know, conflict is kind of in the back. You know, it's playing on the TV, it's on her phone. You always see these snippets of the real life of what it means to be black. But it was so refreshing for me to actually see a young black person just walking around London, living their life, getting drunk with their friends, which is something I haven't seen often. And it was even more interesting speaking to an American colleague of mine who hilariously said to me, it's just so crazy to play grime music everywhere. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, they do. And it's like, little things like that, that I take for granted. Like the music that we listen to in the UK is so distinctly from the UK that it's actually like foreign to other people. So those little moments that I would have missed if I hadn't had a conversation with someone else about, I really appreciated that Michaela inserted them into the show, even like language bits like when they say, when she says raw, like raw. My colleague asked me what that meant. And I was like, it's just it's just the British way of saying, wow, or what? Or I can't believe this. So it's like these little things I really appreciate and love. So let's get into the themes. So the theme of friendship, I think what's really interesting to me and I want to ask you if you think this is interesting as well, is how I feel a lot of the comedy is centered around the friendships. Like when we do get the big laughs and the kind of cringe moments, it is when Arabella is with her friends, as almost if her friends represent the joy that she has in her life and the place where she can have joy, she feels accepted. So I guess the question is, how do you feel about the representation of friendship? Did you like it and like it? Let me know your thoughts, Stephanie, do you want to start? Um, yeah, but I'm not going to start with Arabella. I'm going to start with Kwame, because he's really like the center of the show for me in a lot of ways because of my interest in masculinity. For me, Kwame's story was a search for friendship because I found it challenging for him and for me that he, his best friends, these two black women, were cis, het, black women, do you know what I mean? And so it was complex for him to be queer identifying and love these two people, but be in search of love and a different type of friendship throughout the entire show that he was sort of filling in with sexuality. Um, and so his relationships and the way that they evolved over time, I thought was brilliantly executed because you could over time you got to learn more about what it is that he was filling with the sexuality. I identify a lot of different parts of the challenges he was going through. Like, I mean, we'll talk more about his sexuality during that portion of the talk, but for me, I found it really interesting that when he, when he goes to the birthday party and it was a black birthday party, you guys and they were playing black ass music and people were climbing through windows and the food was serious. Like, we've all been to a real party and if the food ain't serious, it's a problem. And so I was like, this, this I recognize. And when I saw who was present in that space and how very real and millennial that space was to having roommates and having like being broke, but everybody contributing. I was looking at friendships in that way and I was just looking at who was present in that space, not just because of their blackness, but because of how queer, too. The outfits that people were wearing and how they were representing their queer identities and their sexuality very visibly, because obviously it's a show and you have to pick up on these cues. So I'll pause there. But for me, I was looking at the challenges that Kwame was having within that friendship, but how deep and true those relationships were. And lastly, I'll compare it to the the moment when he's attempting to pass and how it really becomes a friendship with that white woman. He goes on a date and he didn't feel unauthentic. He was being himself, but he knew that it wasn't him because he hadn't told her. And when he does, finally, I mean, we can talk about that part later. But when he does, finally, you know, shows himself his like true stuff and he sort of exhales. And he's like, this is me. They could accept each other as deep friends, too, not in the same way. Like it kind of felt like family when it when he was with two black women, but just to center like his experience in that. Like, for me, friendships, specifically masculinity and femininity as being like central and friendships was a key theme in the friendships discussion. So I'll pause there and give them like that. What I loved about the friendship aspects of the show is like more like a family in that, you know, sometimes family, like they've known each other since what the equivalent of middle school or high school. So, you know, like friends that have been together that long, there's like pain there. You don't always do each other right. You don't always do right by each other. There's like it gets complicated and messy. And I really like the way the show kind of navigated those masses and didn't just like idealize the whole thing. You know, sometimes like you're I mean, for example, when Arabella locks Kwame in the in the room, you know, yes, she's really fucked up, but can I swear? I can swear, right? Yeah. So, yes, but that's still like no excuse for what she did and just like how. Like the growth that happens during the course of the show really stuck with me. I think, yeah, I think, yeah, I was basically going to speak to that as well. And I definitely agree in that she doesn't seem to shy away from the masses. And I feel like each of the characters, each of the friends that implicated as well in each other's traumas. And you get that moment where after they come back from the station, and she said, well, can we promise not to leave each other again? And then she says, oh, but, you know, like I didn't leave you basically. And she's she's already fallen asleep. And there are a few moments in there where we are told that, you know, oh, actually on the night that it happened, for example, the he called Terry to ask if it was OK to meet her. And which we didn't previously know. So everyone's kind of implicated in each other's traumas. But that also, which is just the reality of, you know, a lot of situations, but that doesn't take away from, for example, the care she's able to give and how relentless she is in that in the care that she gives over the course of the series. So there's kind of a really complex asymmetry, I guess, that runs throughout in the fact that there's no resolution, but also in the fact that, you know, each character has a moment or a few moments where they slip up and whether, you know, the other person knows or not, they continue to navigate that themselves and within the, you know, the context of the friendships. So I thought that was really well done and dealt with as well. Yeah, thank you. I think the show kind of asks us, like, who are friends and what can we expect of our friends? And, like, when we experience something difficult, how, how do we come together as friends in a way that's, as you said, appropriate for all of us? Because I think, yeah, the show kind of complicates that kind of what seems black and white is actually a lot more complicated. So let's go to the second theme, unless you guys have any more points that you guys want to talk about now. So the next theme is depictions of sexuality. How do you guys think the show discussed and depicted sexuality and particularly having Mikayla Cole kind of centre herself, obviously, as a cis head woman, but opening up conversations about transphobia and dating as well as, you know, grinder and people's expectations of what grinder is and what it means. Three psalms and, you know, generally like kind of stout thing. What are your kind of feelings of how the show dealt with it or looked at it or approached it? And this time, Hisham, do you want to start? Yeah, so gosh, there's I think this is the one theme that I had the most trouble with kind of sorting my thoughts into any kind of coherent thing. But I think I'm actually going to throw this on and bounce off just because I have so much to say. And I think, yeah, that will help me come up with with something a lot more interesting. Stephanie, would you like to start? OK, yeah. So, as I said, my my academic research is on housing transients among housing transients and housing instability among African descended men. So I was really interested in the show because because of the housing issue, right? So there's a part where there he meets where Kwame meets a person that he's genuinely interested in and they have a mutual connection. The other person is like in the closet or somewhere closeted and they're trying to find a place to be together and they didn't have that. And it sort of set the stage for more violence to take place. But I was really interested in that story because that's a story that I've never seen before. I've never heard before, not on TV, right? Like it's something that as a scholar that I'm interested in, right? Like how people use their sexualities and where where does like sex and sexual acts take place in the concept of home and the sexual acts that take place in homes. But I've never seen it depicted on in popular media. So I was really struck by that. And there just there was there was from there was a perspective. Someone was standing someplace where this was extremely visible and decided that this was a story that needed to be told. And if it wasn't for queer black low income people in a room someplace with the opportunity to tell that story, that story would have never been told. It wouldn't have been visible and it wouldn't have brought to light the discussions that take place around the sexual violence that Kwame experiences as a queer black man. I also want to point out that when Kwame experience is something that he's challenged to identify, he doesn't have the vocabulary to call it what he thinks he makes it have experience. He goes to the police and he's like, this is what happens. This is what happened. I can tell you that this is I know that address this is where it was. Like, I know where it was. And the guys like the police officer who's there who was treating him sort of juxtaposing the two experiences of Kwame and Arabella, the man, a black man who's standing in the presence of another black man. When you start talking about what happened to his physical body and he's naming body parts, the police officer is repelled by this idea that this person could be in the same body as him and use his sexuality so differently from him. And he like runs out of the room just with that fear that this is something that he doesn't know and can't explain. And so he becomes sort of a gatekeeper of like the law and order and preventing preventing for me from having justice in that space. I'll stop there. Oh, can I go? I'm going to go. So I really appreciated how sloppy it all was. Like, everything was just a mess. Everybody was so messy. Yeah, definitely. I love everything that you just brought up, Stephanie. I just feel like so much of what I saw around sexuality was that there was no like it just drove home for me like just how much there's no like right way to heal. You know, Arabella goes through this very traumatic rape, you know, and she's like, you know, a couple of episodes down the line. She's like getting back in bed with somebody, you know, and it's not like it's not clean or neat or tidy. There's no long block of exposition. She just kind of, you know, attempts to bang the guy, you know. And I wanted to like strangle that guy so much. Her coach or assistant, I really liked. I kind of liked that everybody was allowed to be some sort of snob, you know, like some level of like middle finger to like respectability politics or like the right way to be a victim, even though both Arabella and Kwame go to the police station to seek justice. You know, they're not falling into this like easy trap of like trauma porn. I didn't think it went there. I think it was a lot more rich. And I think that, you know, like trauma porn is what happens when like white folks tell our stories or when like cis men, het men tell our stories. She's at the same time, you know, while she's like sloppy in certain points of her life, she's also a published author, you know, she's got it going on like nobody in that for all their mistakes. You know, it's not like it's not like that is all that there is to them. Thank you. Oh, sorry. No, no, I was about to say, please. Thank you, no. And I think just like ordering my thoughts more as well. And the scene where Kwame goes to the police station and he gives his, you know, he gives his testimony. And I found that scene incredibly uncomfortable for a number of reasons. And you I kind of sat there making the comparison between what happened when Arabella goes into the station and reports and what happened when, you know, he goes into the station and the police officers kind of like, well, you know, there are self-reporting stations and, you know, you don't have to go through, you know, and to tell me all of, you know, the kind of intimate details of, you know, gay sex, for example. And there's a lot going on within that. And I feel like for most of the series, Makeda Cole kind of tiptoes on this type rope, really. And she kind of rejects that part sensationalist, part cautionary tale narrative that often gets pushed in the media when it comes to stories and, you know, incidents of rape and sexual assault. But I feel like that was the one time where maybe she falls into that trap and it did feel kind of part cautionary tale, i.e., you know, this is what could happen if you, as for example, like a gay man or a gay black man or queer person goes into the police station and tries to report that. I felt like it was important for that to be shown on television, which kind of leads on to the second point, which is that she kind of, it's this like really rich kind of web of like possibilities, both descriptive and prescriptive, right? You've got. So, for example, in the scene after she's experienced the stelting where he removes the condom during sex without her consent. And at the time that he makes that known, she doesn't actually know what stelting is and the significance of it. And they immediately go to, she says, well, you know, I need to get, you know, the morning after pill that you need to pay for this. And they have that experience, which is not kind of marked by any kind of traumatic realisation. And then you've got after she realises what had gone on and there's a name for that. And, you know, and she finds that out and then she goes on the stage and there's that different response. So I think like the possibilities that they include both scenarios, I guess, where, you know, I feel like for the viewer, particularly for the younger viewer, any viewer who doesn't or hasn't really seen these kind of narratives playing out on the screen, it's very useful that she's kind of had, actually, you know, that's what you do. But then also, once she's come to the realisation, we, you know, we realise that, you know, this is actually illegal and something terrible has happened. And so, yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking about as well. Thank you. I would love for us to talk a little bit more about maybe Terry and Terry's threesome. And Hesham, I really liked the way you explained this thing about it's not traumatising, but then it is because you can name it and you can place it. And it's like the feeling behind your back where you're like, something isn't right, but I don't know what it is or where to look to find out if this is right. So Terry kind of has a similar realisation where she throw out the series hints on her being a bit more sexually open than the others might say she is. And she kind of wears this threesome, like this crazy thing that she's done, this thing that is exciting about her almost. And then she obviously has this conversation and then she realises that those men actually kind of plan to get with her. How do you feel like that kind of played out? And as you as an audience member, how did that make you feel positive, negative? I would love to hear you guys's thoughts. Let's start with Stephanie. OK. So first, I think it's important to identify that because this story doesn't come from a white gaze that it was really important to situate yourself in Terry's experience in that moment. She's on vacation and she's been drinking. She took pills. She was she was late and she wasn't having a good time with her friends. And she was kind of pissed about that. But then she's walking home thinking that's the end of her night. And someone tries to hit on her. She gets redrains, like I put myself in her shoes. And I was like, I would have gone with the flow in that situation too. Like I would have gone with the flow and it would have been a great story to tell for me, like if I had been in that situation. But I took a step back and I thought about the fact that we don't really get to hear so much about Black women's sexual agency. It usually it's too often the story of victimhood and violence and trauma. And so I really was struggling with this story because. I think hindsight can be challenging in that way. That like knowing that information after the fact after you thought you did something well, but it was on your terms. And then someone like knowing more information about it took that agency away from you. And you can sort of feel Terry grappling with that challenge throughout the story. A lot of what happens in the rest of the story hinges on Terry's experience that night, like she left Arabella in that state. And so she was holding guilt about that. Like what kind of friend would she be? And then she thought she had a great time. And then she found out that it was sort of like a con. It was it was not on her terms. It was like the situation changed when she had more information. And then to be consulted when when Arabella was in the same state and then to find out that what happened to her, she was holding so much guilt from all of that. I think the two things are really important to carry. They carry the story because if you don't understand Terry's role in that in that story, in that part of the story, then you don't understand the structure of the entire story. So it's really an important triad. Oh, hey, Carol. Now, that's that's my thought. I also think it's important for us to go back and talk about blackness at some point, if it's possible. Thank you. Hi, Carol, you really quickly want to introduce yourself to a lovely audience. No, I'm firstly, I'm so sorry. Many apologies. Let me get this light out. I've got this. I was in so as today and then I had this kind of like, you know, oh, God, stupid children, my own children issues that I had to get home and so sought out. So please, I'll do, you know, I'll do many apologies. But so, yes, so I work at so as I've worked at so as for is everyone some people who's shown me if you're from so as oh, yeah, yeah, well, OK. So so I work in the disability neurodiversity team. So I support students with who are neurodiverse. But in my kind of like my other hat, like for many years now, like, Stephanie, you know, I've just been really engaged in working with black students and working with black staff and helping, you know, I was kind of like involved in setting, helping set up breaking barriers, mentoring scheme and also continue to be involved with working with black staff as well to sort of set up our forums and also with students and as well, I do work in my local community, Labyrinth Grove, where I live. So I'm very sorry to be late to the to the conversation. But yeah, whatever I can, I'm just going to be so interested because it's just such what a what a drama. What I mean, I made a story of what it was just something else, isn't it? It was just like, wow, what is that? You know, I just kind of like I actually watched it late. So I watched it all like all the episodes back to back, like literally over not even like seven days. I think I just kind of like I think I watched it all in about three or four days. I was it was just like I got it. That's like, you know, it was just brilliant. Thank you. Yeah. So we were just talking about the depictions of sexuality. So I just asked about Terry's threesome and how do how do we as an audience member feel about finding out after the fact that the threesome wasn't as spontaneous and as innocent as Terry initially thought it was. And it's definitely raised this really good question question about blackness. So now that you've joined, I would love for us to talk about maybe blackness and sexuality and how both of them are presented on the show. For example, another HBO show, obviously insecure, you know, the depiction of sexuality is very different than I would say in the show. And I think a lot of it is to do how very different British, you know, poems of sexuality are seen compared to Americans. So, for example, I don't know if you've seen insecure, but in insecure, there's a whole episode about a blow job and how controversial it was for Issa to give this blow job. And that was quite, at the time, we've seen quite like, you know, quite hot and like controversial part to talk about. And I just wanted to talk more about how black people feel about sexuality or seen as like sexual deviant, maybe. And these kind of questions, I don't know if that made sense. So if you have questions, do let me know. And I think this time if we could hear from Rush, that would be great. And then Carol, I'll show them in the back to Stephanie. I'm so happy, Jackie. Thank you. So as a viewer, because I'm like hopping, I was like so mad, I wanted to throw stuff at my television when, well, pretty much like, I was like, OK, she's about to have a positive sexual experience with two, you know, white guys. I was just like, OK, this is interesting. But then like when you realize that she was just being exploited, I was just appalled. And there's so much like throughout the show, you feel so much a secondary embarrassment and secondary guilt, you know, just be and you're not able to, you know, it's already behind you. I was kind of putting myself also in Terry's shoes. You know, it's already happened. Do you decide to just move on and, you know, kind of hold that? Or like, can you reject the experience? It wasn't violence, just that confusion, that like kind of weird, sticky, gross, gray feeling. I have no else, no other way to express it. But also I have a question. So are is it less controversial for black women to give blow jobs in the UK? Like, I think, sorry, I didn't phrase that. I just kind of feel like I think and I'm speaking, obviously, from my own experiences, I have found that British people, especially young British people are a lot more, I don't lack for better, more vulgar, more open to talk about sexual experiences. Well, I found that black people compared to the white counterparts are a lot more private, a lot more likely, unlikely to vogue about how many partners they have or who they're dating or who they're seeing. It's just something I noticed about how in the UK, the way we talk about sexuality is already quite split. So it was just interesting to see black women being openly sexual, pursuing things, going out for things and not being shy about it. I faced that very terribly. I had too many thoughts running through my brain. So I just want to respond to that part because I loved Insecure 2. Is like, I think that with Issa, you know, there's so much like, you know, she's college educated and then also like all of her friends are like college educated. She's kind of like living that like fairly high off the high. I mean, I can't afford a place in LA. I don't know how people do it. But I think that there is a lot of that going on whereas and then whereas like Arabella's group is a little bit more ratchet, you know, it's a little bit more down to earth. And so I kind of think that you're not going to have that same conversation about oral sex or like any type of like sexual act exactly the same way. What are you? Oh, so where do I come in? Is I suppose I mean so much, isn't there? So just sifting through, so I kind of work my way through all the themes, all the emotions, all the I think for me, there were a few things. One, it took me back to my own kind of like, you know, sexual experiences in my teens and my team in my early 20s. And obviously, you know, being the age I am, just thinking back to then and thinking, gosh, how positive is it that we can all that you can make a mistake like in a sexual experience, right? You can get off with somebody and it's not that great and things don't quite work out and actually you can actually talk about it. And you can actually, you know what I mean, that we can like share this with other young people and other people and not have to hide and not to just go, oh, God, that was really, you know, either gross or I drunk too much or I didn't I made the wrong wrong decision or whatever. I'm not going to talk about it. So for me, that was something about how what she does in this is that she confronts like for me, for my generation, not splitting off around sexuality because I grew up where sexuality was not discussed within the family. You know what I mean? No one talked to me about sexual experiences. It was just all about get your head down, read your books. Then, you know what I mean? And then you're, you know, and then there was nothing, you know, no, no one kind of like sat down and had those kind of conversations at all. And so the when you kind of like, you know, came of age and had sexual experiences, it was just like there was no one really to talk about it. So everything was just shrouded with, you know, negativity or guilt or, you know, to me and so they were buried. So I really, really applauded that because, yeah, Terry, she copped off with two guys and then something that she realized, oh, my God, these guys, they, you know what, they know each other. And then it was just kind of like, so how did she feel about that? But I think what was really powerful is that it was like in Makayla Cole exploring that it's just kind of like really saying to all of us, you know what, we're going to have some of those kind of experiences to bother the whole thing of what happens to Arabella. But all of these other kind of experiences where it doesn't work out, it's all messy and she explores all the kind of like the messy areas around, you know, and I just thought that that was really, really great because for us, for Black people, for Black women, for Black people, there's this whole area of guilt, there's this whole area. There's this thing which we don't, where we go and it's all kind of like mixed in with stuff like, you know, like you don't have sex before marriage or you don't have sex period, you know, I'm talking of periods. For me, that thing when Arabella has sex during her period, and she's like, oh, sorry, I've got my tampon in. Let me just take that out. And then it's just kind of, you know, I mean, she's so, it was like, yeah, this kind of stuff is what happens rather than this whole fairy tale of whatever people think is going on. They say, there's a whole lot of fumbling around, falling over, tripping over, can't get the condom off. Oh my, you know what I mean? As well as, of course, all the stuff where it's not pleasant and where, you know, like for instance, when the guy was the guy who he takes the condom off and she doesn't know. I mean, all of those, I mean, she really explores a whole range of things from the bits where it's like, God, you know, to me, I shouldn't really, you know, you feel a bit bad about that, too. Two things where they're violence and, you know, so I think the whole continuum is there. But Terry's that specific incident, Jackie, around about Terry and the two guys. For me, I put that in the bracket of, oops. I, oopsie. Do you know what I mean? Kind of like, oh, do you know? And it's nothing to feel guilty or thing about, you know, to me, it's kind of, did you have a good time? Is it, you know, to me or whatever? Rather than actually as a kind of, yeah, it was good that it was explored. And she goes there in terms of sexuality. I think she, I think Michaela really, obviously, she goes in her depiction of black and black men having sex with each other. Homosexuality, she just goes there. She wants us to look at it all, doesn't she? She wants to really take up all those bits where we go, but we don't do that. Black people don't do that. That's what white people do. That's not, you know, we don't have sex during our period. What? What? Black women don't do that kind of, you know, we don't have free sims. We don't. So she is really exploding kind of like a lot of the mist. I didn't even know I grew up with because they weren't talked about, but they were there because when I forade out and had my own experiences, I didn't talk about them. So I knew they were taboo. These were an art or they were taboo, certainly in my generation. And so that's why I think I just kind of like couldn't. I couldn't, I couldn't get through that fast enough. I was like, listen, I mean, I loved it all. Her depictions of family, you've talked about it all, but family. Oh, my gosh, the family that just, yeah, it's just brilliant. So many things. Can I respond? I want to respond. Carol, definitely about the period sex. I completely forgot about that part. And then also one other thing I wanted to add in was that, like, how much more this opens up the conversation about group sex? Like, I don't know what sorts of media y'all are talking like watching, but I know what sorts of media I watch. And like, it's not there's not a lot of MMF action. So to see that in a major, like, just as a matter of course, you know, that's pretty awesome. Like, holy crap, sex on my period. That's something I can ask for from my partner. Like, oh, oh, so it's not just like fun for you during this threesome. Like, you know, I'm the center of attention. So, yeah, that's. And also just on talking when you're you're talking about, Carol, being like when it's not spoken about almost doesn't exist. And like, particularly in kind of there are lots of crossovers in terms of mental health as well. Language is incredibly important. And for me anyway, diagnosis and some people, you know, it's different. But that can be important to nail down the language as something that can be both world changing and world creating, I guess. And she Terry comes back to the threesome at the end of the series at the very end. And she's kind of like, well, actually, you know, I think like something wrong to place there. And it's the first time that she talks about it to anyone else in the very last episode. But also, again, with kind of zooming out a bit, we also or some of us might not also realize that that what took place there was rape because there was no consent. And that is by its definition, again, where language is important, rape by deception, i.e., you go into something thinking one thing and actually, you know, what actually happens is something that you didn't consent to, i.e., would she have consented to it if they knew? Well, we don't know that. But, you know, in that in the in the event, she didn't know. And so she wasn't able to consent to this situation. And then just going back to what you're talking about, about blackness and sexuality and linking the two in a book that I'm reading currently called In the Wake on Blackness and Being. And Christina Sharpen that talks about blackness as almost, and I hope this isn't a kind of crude analogy, but blackness as transness, I guess, as a state of continual becoming. And I think that's really that really kind of struck me when we think about blackness and connection to sexuality and where the kind of the mechanisms and structures that sexuality like fits within cannot really neatly be applied to bodies of colour. And so it kind of in this both in the discussion, i.e., in us talking about our sexual encounters, whether they go with, you know, whether they're good or bad or whether you like free terms or use dating apps and all these things. Just that language can really be both healing and restorative, but also can open up new possibilities for black people when it comes to exploring our sexuality and exploring. Yeah, exploring our sexuality in a way that kind of feels comfortable to us, but also in a way that pushes back on the expectations that people have of us and our bodies. Thank you. There's some really, really good points. When you spoke about language, I just really quickly before we go to Stephanie, Michaela keeps saying this thing that happened. Don't call it memory. It's a thing. And when you say language, I think that is really what she's trying to hit home. How can I call this thing that I don't remember, that I don't recall, which trauma I'm not ready to sit down with, a memory if I don't know when it begins to start or when I begin and start within that memory? And I just realized that as you were talking. So thank you. And Stephanie, please let us know your thoughts as well. Yeah, actually, I was really stuck by that point. One of one of the key things around language that came up for me was how articulate Arabella is. She's a writer and that monologue. And so it was really key for me when she said rape her and not rape this. So it was like this is a choice. Like she was intentionally choosing to distinguish between like the thing that a person is and the thing that a person does. And so I was like, when she said that, I was like, oh, yeah, I see what you're doing there. OK, that aside, I want to bring up something that I don't think we haven't talked about this at all. But I come from a Caribbean background and growing up sexuality is a bit different in the Caribbean. I'm not going to speak like for all Caribbean people, Carol. But I but the way that sexuality is depicted of Caribbean people is really sloppy and messy. It's like Caribbean people, like that's where you go to get sex. Do you know what I mean? So it was really strange for me because I was confused when I was watching it. I was like, Terry acted like a Caribbean person. Like I was reading her as someone, the way that she acted, how loose she was. Her energy was like auntie vibes. Like she's going to make a great auntie someday. Like that was how I was reading her. She was like that auntie that you go to when you mess up. You're like, yo, auntie, this is how I messed up. What do I do? And and then I was talking to like a black British Nigerian British person that I know. And she was like, no, no, no, she's definitely Nigerian. And I was like, what? She was confused by that. And so then I was watching the show with new eyes, not seeing her as a Caribbean character. So without Terry being a Caribbean character, there is no representation of Caribbean's really not as a central theme of the distinguish distinguishing blackness in that particular way. And especially in London, I'll speak to London. I don't know the whole of the UK. I really only live in my little bubble in London. I'll say like blackness is really boiled down to African or Caribbean because there's no such thing as like, you know, black British ambiguity here. Right? No matter how long you've been here. And so for me, I was looking at the show looking for depictions of like Caribbean blackness. And she didn't really engage with that too, too much. And I thought that was a bit of a missed opportunity with the exception of like the various sort of background characters that come into Kwame's life. The people that he's having sex with. And the potential sub characters of the the friends can't remember their names. I'm terrible. There was a light skin trophy woman and there was the friend who left Arabella and they sort of represented like tropes of Caribbean sexuality to me. Like this light skin woman, she's she's meant to be prudish and she's meant to be a trophy. She's not supposed to want sex for herself. She's just supposed to be like a light skin trophy for this man who's like a made it in society. Like now he's got my ease in the penthouse. He's got his light skinned, if not white woman trophy. She has no agency, even though she was asking to participate in a free film. And he denied her of that. And then he was intentionally preventing her from participating in that. And while simultaneously having sex with multiple partners without I mean, not without their consent, without with their consent on individual like individual sexual acts, but without them knowing that he's having sex with multiple partners in the same time periods. And so I think that is a pretty average depiction of Caribbean black male sexuality. I don't know if they say or don't say that he is or isn't Caribbean. But I think like that is a key element. The way that we could think about Caribbean sexuality compared to the depictions of African sexual African African characters that are supposed to embody black respectability politics. You're supposed to go to school, church, home, and that's it. You're not supposed to have friends outside. You're not even supposed to know people like Arabella who are having sex and doing drugs and getting raped. Like that's something that happens to people who don't do that. So she was sort of like living a life that's so separate from what is allowed of of African young women. So I'll pause there. Thank you. I think that very nicely opens up my next question, which is about Kwame trying to meet someone and for lack of veteran, as you said earlier, pass a straight. I wouldn't. I personally didn't feel like Kwame was passing a straight. I thought Kwame was trying to meet someone and explore his sexuality. And I mean, just be like, what are women like? Do I like women? Do I want to have a connection with a woman? What would it be like? And I think everyone is allowed to have that. But obviously the show, again, shows it a little bit more complicated. And I would love for us to discuss this initial meet cute between these two people and then what we got to see in the final. And in your personal feelings as a viewer, I, as a viewer, was very frustrated. I didn't get it. I was like, why? Why is she mad at him? He didn't do anything wrong. He was honest. You are being weird. And just this kind of and with that, I want to talk about how fetishization of the black man and how she felt very much in her right that she could share these fantasies that she has with him. But then he wasn't allowed to kind of keep some things for themselves. And just this conversation that they had afterwards and especially Arabella's reaction. Also, I would love for us to kind of talk about a bit more. So I think it'd be good maybe to start with Hisham from your perspective and then Rush, Carol and Stephanie. Thank you. I think again, and this is something that the show does really well because you every episode you're given you're challenged, I guess, in a really specific way because these kinds of ethical questions really get to the core of what we find uncomfortable and difficult as a society, but also as an individual as well. And I return to the asymmetry as well because or rather even when we're looking at definitions and this is something I only realised when I watched it the second time round, which was that at first I was also very frustrated and I was kind of like, well, he like what you said, Jackie is using this opportunity to really explore his sexuality and all of these questions that he has about it. The second time I watched it, I kind of went a step further and said that actually there's something going on here which number one, for example, I feel like honesty is honesty is really, well, it's very important when you're dating, when it comes to any kind of relationship with that's romantic or otherwise. I think honesty and trust should be is important at the formation, particularly if he's exploring something that's important to him. And so what I found the second time was actually similarly to the case where with Terry, she you know, has the experience with the threesome and then realises afterwards that, you know, it wasn't completely what they kind of, you know, said it was. How is that any different from what Kwame does on this day? Technically, he did and was not upfront about, you know, that and clearly that was an issue for her, which really, really complicates the entire dynamic because then is that also rate by deception or at least that encounter? Is that encounter more problematic than we kind of want to allow ourselves to believe? And then Makayla also called complicates that even further by saying that, you know, or actually, look, here's this white woman who is who is, I mean, I'd go as far as to say racist, but who is, you know, clearly better sizing this black man and his body and all of the ideas and the stereotypes around his body and around his agency and his intentions. And she is kind of, I don't feel like I feel like that kind of offers a counterbalance, a counterweight to the other side of it. But also I think she also gets off. I kind of came away and she kind of gets off with actually, you know, or like all of that was fine because you likes me about this one thing. And so that's kind of how I felt about it. But yeah. So I I've been out for a really long time. This scene was really I've been out since like high school. I identify as a non binary, pansexual or, you know, I just when I'm on the internet, I guess I just call it a fancy bisexual call it a day. I felt such complicated feelings about it. And I guess I just want to start at the top of my thoughts, which was it's really ridiculous to expect any truth on the internet or especially any truth on online dating. You know, outside of, you know, being just straight up catfish. I think that as far as I'm concerned, I don't need to know anybody's sexual number. I just need to know like how many people you've been with since your last sex test, you know, and what the outcome of that is. I think that that's as as much as you really need to know. And if you're just shopping for some sex organs as much as many people do in their online dating, I don't think that there needs to be this huge divulging of like past information or like getting into politics because really you're just trying to get in those sheets. I was thinking a lot about Kwame when, you know, when I when I date folks that identify as lesbian and how paranoid they are about like my sleeping with men in the past. And further, I was taking it even a step further to think about like my relationships with white women and who's expected to be masculine or feminine in a lot of those situations. It's it's often expected that like I'm a stud, which. You know, is it a thing for me, but it's just like who gets to be masculine, who gets to be feminine, who has control or ownership of my sex parts during the sexual act, you know, and and what are those expectations? I think that what Kwame did, I don't know if it was necessarily wrong unless he wanted to pursue a relationship with this woman. You know, she just wanted some black dick, you know, like that's that's her prerogative. And if they wanted to go through with it, then like it's as advertised. So I just thought that she was just it was just fake outrage, I think. And I also think that, you know, Arabella's character was not in a correct state of mind during any of that period. So I don't think that it's the equivalent to sexual assault. I think that, you know, the meat and potatoes of the thing. And I think that everybody got what they mostly agreed upon and that the real problem was that she had the fixed problem in her a fixed issue that like she was sleeping with a straight man, especially when we think about like how many straight men have sex with men, you know? I'm going to stop there. This is a very hot topic for me. Yeah. So Kwame, so let me just backtrack. Does Kwame sleep with the white woman because he's going through just to get a bit of content because he's going through a whole big sort of like a crisis for himself or his sexual identity. I think after the confrontation he has with Arabella in the bath after the party. Yeah, the party, yes. He kind of comes to I think it's a sort of distraction from dealing with the trauma and in having to face it. And I think as we kind of set before, it's it's the way both are very differently dealing with the situation. Maybe find solace in the apps and maybe kind of choosing a different approach, like maybe there's something else out there. Maybe if I date woman or not, maybe I would get a different outcome this time. I think that's because we can see that. Yeah, I mean. Yeah, I mean, I kind of like felt that, you know, you know, Michaela, she is just really exploring just every single angle of the prison. Isn't she? She wants to come in and look at what about this? What about, you know, what do we feel about this? What do we and I felt that? Yes, I think there is like Russia saying there is something about that issue of consent, even within that there is this whole thing about consent. If I don't know everything, if I don't know enough, then am I in a situation to be able to give the consent? She's kind of like, so there is that aspect. But very much as you say there, Rush, at the end of the day, you know, if this is what you signed up to, do you know what I mean? You're going for it's kind of like, you know, the meat and the potato. This is it. And then afterwards, you're acting all outraged. Oh, my God, but it's like, well, you didn't have any conflict. You didn't have any conversations. You didn't get to know the person. You are interested in this person. You was just it was sex. That's OK. That's what it was. But don't backtrack and go, but you actually lied to me. No, because you didn't really are, you know, no one took the time to really kind of. That's why I think for me, with Terry, there's no outrage because it's at the end of the day. Listen, this is just kind of the stuff that can happen. Do you know what I mean? When you don't, you know what I mean? When you're sort of like led by, you know, desire, desire. You desired, you know, and of course, the fetishization and all the things that we're imposing our own thing on something. We've got to take responsibility for that. Surely that's in that moment. You know, so I kind of like felt that. Yeah. So I think she's looking at, you know, so that those issues about. Was it honest? Was it dishonest? It's all very complicated. I don't think there's any kind of like I'm sure for Kwame, those are parts where he felt, yes. There is, of course, we're grappling with human beings. We're grappling with all of those issues. Or am I being honest? Am I being true to myself? What does it mean to be true to myself? What does it mean to be true to, you know, and it's all tinge with, of course, and he felt some regret and he felt, you know, sorry, that he'd let himself down as well as, you know what I mean? So there was everything is is it is all in there. It's all tied in. So, yeah. So, yeah, it's very, very it's very it's it's all about that. It's very, very complicated. But I think it was also about Michaela exploring that, you know, brought again the issue of consent and what that what does that mean? Yeah, I mean, I don't think I have much to add to this. I agree with the general consensus. Which is that Michaela Cole did a lot of research for this show and she put the idea of sexual consent on a spectrum and she examined a storyline that would allow her to show just about every kind of sexual consent that I could think of, including the very, very great area of the situation with Kwame. And I found myself in this position when I was thinking about it and I was like, oh, yeah, it is sort of a live by omission kind of thing. But she was really just trying to get some plastic. She didn't care about him. Yeah. So she made the situation so messy, right? Russia, it was super messy. And at the end of the day, I was just sitting in that mess. Like, yeah, it's all pretty messy like this. It's pretty messy. But I think what she did one time, do you know when she calls out the the editor guy? I forget his name. She calls him on that stage. But what she did there, I thought was really interesting where she goes sort of a legal analysis with it. She's like, in the UK, it's definitely rape. And in Australia, it's a little bit rapey in the US. It's not rape at all. And I was just like, think about that the politics of locations that she did there. She was like, even though law is messy when it comes to this. And I thought that that the whole thing with Kwame and the white woman, I first I was thinking, oh, yeah, sort of like what I heard from Carol that he was running away from a really difficult thing, the challenge to his core. So something that looks like the complete opposite, right? A white woman as opposed to like, like I'm pretty sure all of his sexual partners were black men. Pretty sure. I don't remember seeing white men. And so he went away from black men, which is obviously when we're talking about the fetishizing of black male bodies. He went away from that stereotype and went to the white woman. And so I was really confused by it at first. And I was thinking, but he gets so much love from black women in his life. And he gets so much validation from black women in his life. So if he was really exploring his sexuality, wouldn't he go find another black woman to love? I was confused by that. And so I thought it was such an intentional choice that she chose a white woman or rather that Kwame chose a white woman to explore his sexuality with. And in that way, I sort of deprived that white woman of her own agency. I was confused by it. I still don't think I know very much. I haven't come to any sort of conclusion about how I feel about that situation. And I think that was intentional, too, because it's too messy. Like it's just too messy. And Mikaela, she doesn't explore her sexuality with black men, does she? Or does she at all? I don't think she does. Or if she does have because she's heterosexual, but she doesn't explore that. As I remember, there's no black men in it. It's all, you know, white men, Asian men, Middle Eastern men. So there's something for me around Mikaela and how she connects with as well with her own blackness and also with a Caribbean as well, not her own Karen, but Caribbean people. So I think aside from that, I was. I had questions and not questions. I was kind of intrigued by those. So I think I want to go back to what Stephanie said about, you know, Mikaela choosing this white woman for Kwame. So I and what I was thinking might like my thought process behind it was just like, OK, so Kwame's been traumatized. He's had his agency taken away from him. And maybe he feels less like a man. He's been helpless to stop the actual assault. He's been hampered from seeking justice for that assault. His friends have kind of just sort of like made light of it because Arabella is still focusing on her healing. I don't think that Terry was as supportive as she could have been to Kwame during those times. So maybe his choice or the his character's decision to go with this white woman is about not feeling threatened, not feeling confronted, not feeling challenged. You know, she's that that like feminine archetype like this white woman that's not going to like harm anybody. And so I'm thinking I could be totally bullshitting here, but maybe that's where he's coming from or that's what she's trying to discuss or that's what he's trying to like move through. I definitely agree with that. I think, yeah, it's definitely a choice that was made on purpose to have that conversation that they do end up having because I think that's an important aspect of that encounter. Not only is he fetishized as a black man, something that might not have happened to him before when he was only seeking out other black men. So I think that was also part of kind of making him realize that position that he suddenly has put himself in isn't just like this experience that he's having, but also this racialization that will come with that experience, which he fortunately, because he was surrounded by black people, he might have forgotten about in a in a weird twisted way. I don't know if that makes sense. It's almost like realization of, oh, you see me as this black man rather than this person, Kwame, who I am. So definitely agree. I think it's time for us to move on to the last theme, the theme of trauma. I want to start off the theme of trauma with a question we got. Do you think that victims of sexual violence can find solace in the ending of the show while it acts out of revenge fantasy? It was also ambiguous. So I would love to hear your thoughts of how you felt it was good. I'm sorry. And if you felt it was a good ending to the series and its exploration of different experiences of trauma violence. And Carol, would you like to start off? Gosh, see. Oh, can I come in on that? Oh, I need to, yeah, because when it how it ended, I was a bit like, oh, you know, baby, because I just didn't want it to. Yeah, I think I'll come in and yeah, I just want to gather my thoughts on that. Yeah. I like to think of myself as a storyteller, too. And so I was particularly struck by it. By the ending, I found it really satisfying because it is about grappling with trauma and violence. And there's no definitive into it, too. You know what I mean? It is about sort of sifting through the choices you can make and how to move forward. And so I found the ending really great because I thought she could have found this guy if she could find him. She would have found him and committed an act of violence and lose a bit of herself. And she thought about like hiding it, hiding it, putting it under the bed, taking everything apart and ripping it up and hiding it and not showing it to anyone or bringing him back. And then feeling like she was in control of the sexual experience. She thought about all the different options, all the different ways it could have played out. And she laid it out and I found that she as she was learning about the structure of how to write and that she applied that to her process for healing herself. That I couldn't think of a more perfect ending than than that. Just thinking through and seeing all the different ways it could have played out and seeing her alive at the end, having learned all the lessons she's learned and then packaging it into this show and helping all of us talk about it in this way. Stephanie, I just want to say that, yeah, I think you put a great like, yeah, exactly. Same, same ditto. I thought it was incredibly cathartic. Everything I'm going to say is totally just echoing you. So she's such a storyteller, isn't she, Stephanie? You just as perfect. And you helped to stimulate, I suppose, something. Which is really about how do we move on from trauma? I mean, thinking for us as Black people and thinking about trauma, sexual trauma, racialized trauma and about how trauma, if it's not looked at, if we don't unearth it, like you say, dig it out from like, you know, she's going to pull it from out underneath the bed. Is she going to, you know, this thing that she dismembers, how do you bring it back so you have memory? So it's something about, and I connect very much to this about how as a people, what we've done with our traumas, how, you know, I mean, they lay buried in our subconscious, buried in the past, buried, you know, ancestrally, historically, but that actually we have to bring them forward in order to remember. We need to remember in order to move forward because if we don't, we are frozen and we are kind of stuck. So, and then that's something that, yeah, that's definitely something I think a lot about in terms of like post-traumatic slave syndrome, in terms of thinking about, you know, we have faced in our, you know, ancestrally. And I think Michaela Cole, although she take, you know, it's a specific issue, she's looking at rape and consent, but really what's buried in that and what's unnerved is a huge big, you know, thing for us as a people about exactly about that issue of trauma and how do we digest it? How do we handle it? How do we think about it? How do we then talk about it? And as you said, Stephanie, brilliant. And Rush, you know, here we are talking about it. And once one brings something from the subconscious into the conscious, then the healing starts. I think that it's like Toni Morrison says that, doesn't she? She talks about that, that memory, the whole thing. But you know, this was the, oh, what was the amazing, oh, the amazing novel she wrote out the ghost that comes back, the ghost of the slave. Beloved, beloved, you know, and that is it. This is it, we need to breathe. And you know, all of the mess, you know, this is what we've covered, the messiness, the kind of like, you know, the things which don't add up, you know, for us as black people to be messy, to allow us to explore the messiness without it, you know, the politics of respectability that weigh on us, where we can't talk about that, you know, that's not what we do. That's that, you know, are we wrong or are we right? But, hey, you know, I mean, certainly I think that was so freeing in terms of the trauma about being able to say, you know, yeah, we, you know, we have these mess in our life and we can heal and we can grow and we can become like, she became freed up to right. You know, that was the freeing up. She could, her creativity was linked into that trauma. Then her creativity was blossomed from there. So I think there's a really much like wider kind of implications for us as a people and trauma and what Mikaela Cole, how she expresses that, how she brings that through. I just want to jump in there because what you said, Carol, kind of reminded me again of this book that I'm reading, which I'm literally just obsessed with. What's it called? So it's called In the Wake on Blackness and Being, by Christina Sharp and just thinking about the ending and the very last episode of I May Destroy You. I think that the kind of she talks about. So in the book, she talks about, you know, how can we memorialize something that is still ongoing, something that's present, which is the afterlife of slavery, right? The whole book is about how we're living in the wake of the relationship, kind of. And so, yeah, how do we memorialize something that's ongoing and translating that into this series, where we're talking about how do we find closure on something that's not yet closed and which speaks to our traumas, which haven't been resolved and, you know, with what we're through. And so the open-endedness of the ending, having the multiple scenarios of, you know, where she gets revenge and then the very final ones, where she gets kind of closure and then, you know, they have that incredible scene where they're having sex and whatever and they wake up in the morning and she's like, can you leave now? And that's kind of her expiring him from that space of trauma. So we've got kind of like all of these different imaginings, I guess, of the ending. So linking that back to the significance for survivors, particularly from a mental health point of view, we've got an ending and a general narrative anyway that's open-ended, it's not static. There are highs and lows and she goes through different periods of, you know, what we see her being kind of relatively fine, whatever that means and having these dips and whatever. And so I thought that was really great about the ending as well. And also another reason why I thought it has some significance there as well is she deals with the perpetrators, the rape, as she says, and the kind of, once you get into that and that kind of area of, you know, what would I say or what would I do or, and you're imagining all of these different scenarios, that is messier than, you know, everything that comes before in a wider discussion anyway. And perhaps even represents a bigger taboo than any other question that kind of surrounds rape or sexual assault in general. So having those different kind of, those different scenes where she imagines different outcomes as well, I feel like it's also kind of incredible and almost positive ending and saying that, kind of echoing what she says throughout the whole series, which is there is no one way for you to manage your grief. There's no one way for you to deal with and sort through it. And I think that's really hammered home right at the end with those different things, particularly with dealing with her raper as well. Thank you for that. I'm just looking at a time. So while I think there's a lot more to say about trauma in depth, I think it'd be good for us to look at some questions now. So one of the questions we have, it's about the conversation about veganism and in which way Arabella becomes the face of this hip, you know, hackety-based vegan food shop. And sorry, I'm kind of this idea of like, her friend is getting a cup for bringing in black people to the face of something that is seen as historically white because they want to get money from the black people. How do you feel that was kind of shown in doubt with? And I think what I thought was interesting in the way that what happened at school between Terry Theo and Arabella is kind of forgiven because Theo has now done this thing to Arabella. Does that make sense? Like they both kind of did each other dirty and now they're kind of even. I felt like that's a little bit how that was resolved. But if you did feel that differently, do let me know. I mean, I don't think that she did Arabella dirty at all. If anything, Arabella like revealed what sort of crap and like kept her friend's future from being trashed. So I don't think that there's any sort of like resolution there other than that, you know, her old coworker and schoolmate is trash. That was my take. And you know, I think that we've been talking about exploitation in a number of forms, you know? So I just think that this whole, you know, the exploitation of like that happens in social media and like representation and then also the idea that one of the things that makes me so upset about like militant vegans, I guess, is that they're not really confronting the violence that happens in the food system just in general, that there are black bodies, black and brown bodies that are harvesting the food. And so like what is the idea to like, what is it to like have a cruelty free diet? And then having that same sort of this lie like repackaged and sold to folks, to black people. I don't know, I felt kind of sticky about it and I don't want to go on a tangent, but yeah. Anyone else have any more thoughts on veganism and blackness? I do have a thought. It's about decolonizing. So the theme of this like series of virtual events this week is decolonizing and university, especially in the UK, but especially so us use decolonizing as a buzzword. And I really, when I was watching that scene, I thought of this buzzword. It wasn't really about bringing in black people to talk about the food systems and all the violence that exists in there. In fact, they didn't let her talk at all. She was a puppet. They wrote the script for her and they owned her. They exploited the fact that she was in a moment of financial need and they could tell and they exploited that and they use her image and her voice to say something that didn't have anything to do with her. And if they had actually sat down with her and had a conversation about food, about the system, maybe they could have collaborated on a way that would have actually gotten black people to the table authentically, as opposed to what they did, which was puppetry and it was disgusting. And I relate that back to the discussions on decolonizing because oftentimes what ends up happening is decolonizing is a sort of tokenism that people in power will choose individual black and brown people to represent all black and brown people. But they choose those people and they sort of mold those people and they're not actually representing the interest or the goals, the future that black and brown people want for themselves. And that's the elements of the conversation that hasn't really been had and not giving black and brown people the power and space to like meaningfully contribute to decolonizing, the deconstruction of this current colonizing that's still taking place. That's how I interpreted that situation. Yeah, and leading on from what you're saying, Stephanie, I think what Michaela is doing there, I think she's also sounding a bit of a warning for all of us, for black people that are in situations where we can become the kind of like the token voice of, and not allowing ourselves to be used. Yeah, and finding yourself. Because I think that what, if I remember correctly, and I will need to go back and I remember sort of like, and whether or not Michaela is going through her trauma and she's quite split off. So she's quite disconnected, her heart and her emotions and her thoughts are quite sort of like, she's just quite flattened. And so she's literally allowing herself to be used, so there's a consent, it's also a bit of an area of consent there, but how do we allow ourselves, do we, are we thinking like being really present and really thinking about, hang on a second here, I'm being used to it, because as you said, she's suddenly in something and she just kind of goes along with it and she plays along with the, you know, to me and it's like, and I was watching that thinking, is that kid you were saying that about with this decolonizing, that how are we, when we're in these institutions, are we just kind of like become the face of, oh diversity, we've got a diverse board here, we've got a diverse teaching, we've got a device because we've got one black person, one brown person doing, you know, and so therefore it's a kind of like a warning that of not to be split off, it's like about consciousness, how conscious are we? Because I remember in case she just, there were moments when she would just literally just be a kind of, you know, especially around the social media stuff, it's like, do the smile and they're, oh yes, sign the autograph and just do that, you know, how we can be in this system, you know, because you just become used, it becomes a token, it becomes, you know, we're not really engaging ourselves. And I think there was something for me about that split-offness, you know, how are we being co-opted and how far we are allowing ourselves to be co-opted without being really mindful of the consequences of that. I think there was something around that for me. I want to just add very quickly, I know that we've kind of digressed from the veganism that's going on. Sorry. No, I think it's just to add on to what you and Stephanie have been saying and going back to the consent workshops, which, you know, I received training to deliver and delivered at the beginning of last academic year for incoming pressures. And also thinking about, I think it is a really interesting point around consent and the way that you are used by certain institutions and bodies without fully understanding the implications of what energy and the effort that you're putting in. With the consent workshop, I know Stephanie, you said you had issues with it, as did I. There are many issues with the workshop. One of the biggest issues for me was the fact that you try to squish this whole discussion around intersectionality onto one slide and the debate is not nuanced. And you basically go over some key terms really to bring everyone up to date. And on that as well, when you're in a team where you're delivering training to people and you're talking about intersectionality and how gender and sexuality in all of these different categories kind of shift around and morph around depending on who you are as well. I found that in the largest training groups, the very few black people delivering the training are kind of like, okay, so we need to make sure that no two black people can be in the same group because I say a waste of one black person that could do that second. And also just thinking about, I mean, again, I think it's important to criticise the institutions you're a part of as well. And thinking about it's Black History Month at the moment and it comes around to Black History Month. I know I was approached to do something based on Black History Day by so-as. And then to write a blog this time around and all of these things. And this time around, I kind of just sat down and was like, actually I've got a lot on right now. And yes, it would be an incredible opportunity, but it's kind of, unlike this discussion which is happening between, all of us are people qualified by people here which is so refreshing and energising. But in some other contexts as well, you have to just peel it back and be like, actually, I'm giving away free labour, free energy. And yeah, so just being aware going back to your point of when you might be being exploited in some tiny way and you're not aware of the four implications. Thank you. I think we have time for one more question. If we really push it through, but I just want to mention it. So someone asked, what do we think about the role of the publisher and then the way Arabella is the essence of the publisher? I just thought that as we are talking about institution who is exploiting you, who are we giving consent to? Just as a final thought, how do we feel about the relationship that Arabella does have with their publisher? Like even this idea where she's like, my book is about right now. And they're like, great, but you have a deadline. And it's like this idea that like you're, even though something traumatic has happened and they have acknowledged it, they're paying for you to go to therapy. However, January 22nd, we need that book. It's a very interesting relationship that's being shown to us. If I could get any of the captions, please, thank you. She's really not likable that woman, is she at all? This is the one with all the plants, yeah? Oh, gosh. It's just again, you know, like what? For me, it's kind of like, okay, this is what can happen, the end result of co-option. This is what you become. You become kind of like the literal living, kind of like, you know, real, like you have that. It's just, oh, yeah, you know, you've lost it. Like for me, it's like, she really has lost. She's really, really lost herself. For me, it's just kind of like the epitome of like, so that does that, is that what happens when you go up in these institutions? Is this what happens? This is the kind of like the thing that you have to be aware of when you kind of like go up or get power or get status or get, you know, within these mainstream organizations, you can really lose yourself, you know? And yeah, it was, so that again, is a kind of like an issue that she explores in that. And of course it is, I mean, for me, how I connect with that, is that, you know, I've always been, you know, I suppose I really, I do struggle within systems in terms of kind of like, you know what I mean? Would you kind of go in up the greasy pole, right? And in terms of kind of like losing my feet on the ground and losing my connections with my community and losing my grassroots connections. This is the thing really that speaks quite big for me. And it was only for when I, through the work I did with breaking barriers, and it was only when I realized that I was trying to encourage young people, young black people to take on positions of, to go, you know, to have the confidence to, you know, go for those positions. Then I was like, but I'm not doing it myself. I'm not doing it. I'm saying, yeah, you can do it. Yeah, you're great, you know what I mean? And it's like, you know, because it's so brilliant, you know, but I actually am not gonna do it. And then I had to take, I had to look at myself and go, Carol, you can't do that. You actually have to take on a position because you have to be a role model. You know, you have to become a role model so that you are, it's not like do as I say, but don't do as I do, right? I have to do, and it was with that, then I kind of like, you know, only one couple of steps I just took on. I went for a kind of like a role which was coordinating, you know, the team in order to be a role model. But I was always extremely, very, very conscious of how when you're sitting in board rooms with a lot of white people and where the co-option is something I particularly have a kind of like a dreaded, I'll be honest, a fear of losing it. I never ever want to lose that. But it's again, it's complicated and I don't know, I have no answers for that at all. But Michaela is right, she, and I think she, that woman embodies that, that sort of brittle sort of, you know, pretence and you know what I mean, just, oh, yeah. I totally am picking up what you're putting down, Carol. I mean, for real, I think about how like, well, first off, I am totally a 90s kid. So to see that character, I was, I watched the craft like way too many times as a teenager. So that was great. But then I was also thinking about like how, you know, how professionalism is a tool of white supremacy. You know, they literally published her rapist's book. How many women were in the room that could have made a decision that knew about the pen name, the deception, you know, like how many people could have said no, could have shelved it, could have like blown up this guy's spot, but instead they saw the dollar, they saw the money that could be made, they saw Michaela imploding, I mean, Arabella imploding, and they made that decision very consciously. There was so much thought in it. And it was just, it was really disgusting. That's how I felt about the publisher's character. Thank you. Sadly, this is all the time we have today. This was recorded. So if you like to rewatch it, hear everyone's amazing thoughts, again, this will be available on the YouTube channel to show us for the Festival of Ideas. And next up, we have Britons 1802, Man of the Year was Hatties Toussaint Louvre-Roteau. I did not say that right. I'm so sorry to all my Haitian people. I mean, Stephanie specifically, a mix of folk tales and a panel discussion. Thank you so much for coming and bye. Thank you for having me. Thanks, everybody.