 Ladies and gentlemen To the rising Bharat summit from the news 18 network This is a showcase of India's boundless potential as well as a celebration of its significant achievements This is one of the most anticipated summits in the world of leadership governance policymaking finance technology news and current affairs We are delighted to have you all here The theme for this year is leading for global good Now over the next two days prominent leaders and change makers will be brainstorming the present and crystal-gazing into the future The process of consultation lies at the very core of democracy wider discussions assist in expanding the area of what is possible Debates in such Forer are a manifestation of this democratic practice In a nation's history ten years can be a small stretch in the continuum of time yet some periods do stand out In 2013 the Indian economy was clubbed among the fragile five By 2023 India had become the world's fifth largest economy Galloping past the United Kingdom its former colonial ruler The symbolism is inescapable a decade ago India's vibrant local markets were filled with people who are buying and selling goods with well-worn banknotes Today, they are just as likely to use smartphones UPI is now the default payment option for most Indians from small ticket purchases at roadside shops to settling utility bills to paying at restaurants to even IPO stock purchases and mutual fund payments This change has had no parallel in history anywhere in the world in 2023 Bharat entered the elite space club as the Chandrayaan 3 landed on the moon south port Making India the very first country to do so 10 years ago a usual bill Mirrored the untidy patchwork of India's indirect tax structure Today the goods and services tax the GST has dramatically altered this by consolidating a web of levies into a single tax India's infrastructure creation has become visible symbols of Transformation whether it is ports airports highways They've all turned India's image of a country with creaky roads into highway hotspots This is acting as a powerful multiplier for the broader economy It's connecting the hinterland with the metropolises. It's radically cutting down logistics costs and increasing India's competitiveness Now while there is plenty for India to be absolutely delighted about there are still areas that we need to be alert and Alive to we should be acutely aware of the need to keep striving to keep improving Keep pushing every boundary that holds us back and to be alive to the challenges that could potentially derail Bharat's rights So ladies and gentlemen over the next 30 sessions spread across the next two days You will get a chance first hand to cure from some of the finest political leaders Sportspersons industry captains entrepreneurs intellectuals and artists the people whose Intellect and energy and dynamism is powering Bharat's rise and Later tomorrow we will welcome in our midst the captain of this ship The man who is steering India in this remarkable period in our history Prime Minister Narendra Modi May I now invite my colleague Avantika Singh to take us through this morning's power pack sessions I hope you have a good time and enjoy your time here at the rising Bharat summit. Thank you Zaka and a warm welcome ladies and gentlemen to the rising Bharat summit now What is common among semiconductors chip manufacturing trains railway stations artificial intelligence safety data and technology The next session is with a leader who is in charge of putting India on the fast track of speed Safety and technology quite literally. So he's soft-spoken Affable low key and he's a quintessential doer He is an IAS officer an engineer and he is a career technocrat and has been the forefront of complex Infrastructure project. He truly believes that Indian railways is going to play an important role in India's growth story If you have been to a railway station lately You would have seen the transformation and if you've traveled on a train lately You would have also experienced this massive change Please put your hands together as I welcome our first guest for the morning Minister Ashwini Vaishnav, who is with the railways and communications and electronics and information technology For what promises to be a very exciting session and may I please call on the stage Vina Vyaka who will be moderating the session Titles the Transformers taking India to a new station Let's have a huge round of applause ladies and gentlemen. It's morning today. Thank you So if you want to keep him on this station then all the work is done and this is the work that is going to take rising India to that zenith Minister, I welcome you very much. Let me just tell the viewers that you are a 49-way rail minister A 55-way sanchar minister and a 2nd Electronics and Sujna minister. You have a lot of weight on your shoulders As the Prime Minister, Mr. Narendra Modi is working day and night for the country He is working for his every moment and every moment for the country So we should get a lot of work done, we should get a lot of work done Mr. Ashwini, when we talk about 2047, we talk about that India that has grown So Ima, keep your hand on your heart and tell me how a rail minister gets his railway network at that time How can the people of India see the train at that time? Look, today in the period of 10 years of Mr. Modi, there has been a very strong legacy Today, the 10-year legacy of Mr. Modi and the 25-year plan This is the first message of the Indian People's Party In this 10-year legacy, in the railways, almost 100% electrified 40,000 km of electrification took place, 20,000 in 60 years and 40,000 in 10 years Approximately 30,000 km of new railway tracks, that is, the railway network of Germany was connected to the railway network of India Last year, 5,000 km were connected and this year too, I was seeing in the report 5,226 km were connected to the railway network That is, every year, about 1 Switzerland is connected to the railway network of India Totally new generation trains came, new trains came Today, in the new trains, our middle classes and aspirational youth are getting an experience that is best of the best in the railway system The new trains are very successful for regional transit Now, new trains are coming to sleeper, new trains are coming to metro So, what you have seen, in these 10 years, to make a growing India the foundational elements, which have to be made, have to be made, have to be made In the next 5 years, we will strengthen this neve Minister, I am stopping you for a second You are saying that this neve has been kept in 2014 What was happening before this? Before this, if I talk about the railway then the railway was considered to be equal to a cow There was a condition in which the railway ministers would only focus on the stoppage or extension of a new train The capacity of the trains was not to worry about it In this way, the railway administration was running the government of the railway ministry in which the railway was not focused The passenger was not focused, it was only their political focus Mr. Modi depoliticized the railway The railway was in a technical way in an operational efficiency way in the way of absorbing new technology Mr. Modi took that into his primary focus The railway budget was merged in the general budget where only Rs. 15,000 crores were received from the general budget Today, Rs. 25,000 crores is the budget support of the railway The funding has increased, the work has increased There have been many reforms There have been many major structural reforms due to which the railway has come into such conditions that now it has become a good foundation in the next 10 years In the next 5 years, the foundation will become stronger The new technologies that have been brought in will strengthen them more and after that, in the next 20 years the railway will see a new form Changes are being seen on the railway station Everyone here will believe this But when they go to the railway station it is true that 41 people have come to India Namo and Amrit have come to India Even today, the passengers are worried about the crowd The reservation in the trains is worried about it How much time can you tell the minister that there will be a time when in a year, the cost of Rs. 700 crores is the cost of travelling That is up to Rs. 1,013,000 By 2030, 1,000 crores of passengers will travel in the railway They are making capacity according to that There is a fundamental difference between trains and highways In trains, you cannot drive a car without a post The road, the condition, the condition the car runs once That is why it is very important that in the railway network to increase the capacity all the technologies like sending new post getting automatic signal the complete railway control system which is called centralised train control CTC to go to that technology the acceleration of your trains when they stop after the break to reduce it the 20-25 KV is a massive technical work In the whole technical work the work that is going on we are very comfortably I can say with good confidence level that by 2030 1,000 crores of passengers will have the capacity to carry every year Today, we carry around 700 crores of passengers in a year If you look at the entire network of the railway look at the transportation economics In transportation around 700 crores go from the railway around 250 crores go from the highway and around 35 crores go from the aeroplane This is the network in which this 700 crores will be around 1,000 crores In these years what has happened that all these trains whether they are in New India whether they are in Vandebharat Is this just a will or were there other things which in addition brought this work to you on a fast track There are three things One is to bring a very strong focus, technology to bring a very strong focus to depoliticize the railway The focus of the railway is on the operational efficiency In the railway the work has changed Second, the funding has increased Third, the PM said very quickly that no matter how hard it is to take decisions take decisions For example there has been a new improvement in maintenance The day you have to do maintenance Suppose there is a factory but you have to do daily maintenance The day you have to do maintenance all the contractors, machines spare, material, labour all came So from morning till evening from 4-5 am you would get permission You would never get permission You would go back to 60-70 years Now in today's railway every developer will make a detailed plan for the next 26 weeks Next 26 weeks Meaning like in Japan there is maintenance or developed countries They do it every Friday The same advanced planning They are doing their own railway So these are all tough decisions In this you have to change the whole organization along with the habit You have to come to practice in a new way So this is not easy There is a lot of hard work and continuous communication with the top to the bottom most layer If you go to a supervisor and talk to him Pathway inspector section supervisor They are so happy that they get the time for maintenance Before this you were saying that politics would not work Now you are just working and they are happy Go and meet I am at a low level with the officials in the group C Karmchari I interact a lot with them I take a lot of feedback I am so happy that the way railway should go is a technical organization By the way, Mr. Modi took the railway to the technical stage in the last 10 years Mr. Ashwani, I would like to talk in detail There are few accidents but you have seen how many days you have been there People have seen tears in your eyes You have seen politics on the ground With the coverage Vipaksh attacked a lot You said that technology is such a system that India will not have any harm But when it happened he hurt everyone The coverage is a technology class Automatic train protection ATP technology In the world in the big railway systems in the 1980s started in the 1990s and in the 2000s almost all the big railways in the world were fully ATP What were the governments doing then? Were they not responsible for the ATP or were they not responsible for the investment for the new technology they didn't do anything In 2016 for the first time the ATP technology was accepted by Mr. Modi In 2016 think about it from 1980 to 2014 in that period the entire country should be covered by Mr. Modi In 2016 until 2019 he got all the certifications due to COVID-19 but despite that he worked very fast Now the coverage is not like a device that is installed on a train the coverage is a system you have to install optical fiber cables along with the railway track or GO or BSNL network you have to install a telecom tower on the telecom tower there are telecom devices then there is a device on the train with the signaling system you have to integrate there is a data center on every station there is a complete data center and then from the data center there is a centralized train control it is a very complex technology means in the world 20 to 25 years small networks 8,000, 10,000, 20,000 km 50,000 75,000, 75,000 km is the network but so fast new manufacturers are joining new designers many innovations are being made to design the station to automate that design means there is a commitment which Mr. Modi has made to save the railway in the country he has invested 1,87,000 crores if you compare it it is more than 2.5 times in the last 4 to 14 years the amount of investment is more than 2.5 times and its result is also visible very unfortunate that even more efforts will increase to 100% there is a commitment regarding the bullet train Mr. Ashwini Vaishnav when there is so much dirt which you are trying to fill many people say does the bullet train need this country what will you say to them don't consider bullet train as a means of transportation the path that runs on all the cities of that path I will give a very good example of Japan the first bullet train in 1969 when it started Tokyo Nagoya Kobe Kyoto all these economies become one economy and you cover the distance of 500 km in 2 to 3 hours if you are working in Kyoto you worked in Osaka and in the evening you came back to your children the same development there is a serious regional multiplier when you will see Mumbai Thane Surat Anand and Ahmedabad all these economies will become a single economic zone you will have breakfast in the morning you will reach Mumbai in an hour you did your work you will train in the evening and eat with your children when will all these dreams come true in 2026 today look I forget to count daily last 10-12 days I had reviewed 284 km already tracks over head electrical system the manufacturing of the train all these things are going fast I will not name the position of any country it takes 20-20 years to do a project within 8-10 years this project will be completed in the section of Surat from Surat to Bilimura you will see the train and it is world class time is moving ahead so I am taking my train to the station before that the rail ministers would you like to give them a number please it is not our job I have to work hard I am coming to Digital India it is the dream project and the most important is semiconductors we are talking about in fact we started from Basur I will spend time now you are saying that India will get the first semiconductor these are two questions I will go to the sun shape why not till now what have you done in December 2024 the first made in India chip will come in the market do not go too far note down December 2024 will be the first chip look, it has been tried since 1962 but it is not your fundamental conviction Modi ji has such a strong conviction that when we have to make Vixit India what will it look like in its foundation it is very important in electronics manufacturing in the sense that you watch TV at home or watch power electronics telecom or watch electronics in defense or watch electronics in car in everything it looks like a semiconductor anything that is on or off it looks like a semiconductor whether it is light whether it is a missile whether it is a train whether it is an aeroplane whether it is a fridge everything that is on or off it looks like a semiconductor chip I am saying this with a lot of responsibility Modi ji has shown and I can give you personal examples for semiconductor discussion when for half an hour or 45 minutes Prime Minister I am saying this in front of the public should not be said but PM sir gave time for 45 minutes he gave time for 3 hours one line by line PM sir would discuss in detail whatever concerns are related to the work of the government many of them are related every department would personally sit together and PM sir said we have to be successful in semiconductor country has to be successful in semiconductor such a commitment is impossible for any other Prime Minister you are saying that commitment from the government from the Prime Minister but Vipaksh especially P. Chidamram sir he is saying this is jobless growth he is saying that the work of the government is less than 50% and since last 9 years you people are doing growth no one can give job let me give a challenge to P. Chidamram sir you can reach P. Chidamram sir through my medium EPFO Employee Provident Fund Organization this is an organization in which a person goes to work there is a registration there is a deduction and there is a deduction from the organization absolutely there is such a data which gets the acceptance from anywhere according to EPFO the new people who are connected to the job those who leave the job plus those who come back to the job they must have left once the net number that total job opportunity was made it was simple that total job opportunity was 6 lakh per month a few years ago today on average it is 12 lakh per month 12 lakh per month means a year 12 into 12 144 a year of job opportunities is being created can you ask Mr. Chidamram whether this is a lie or is it true this is the data many economists many good news paper I also want to ask this challenge Mr. Chidamram sir will accept your challenge there is one more option you say we have become manufacturing hub but you don't do any manufacturing you just assemble you are giving it its name look the people you are talking about let's say why should I give any name until you accept look in any country any industry when it starts take car industry since 1980 when the car industry started first came the CKD of the car which is completely knocked down unit after that came SKD after that few components were made many components were manufactured tier 1, tier 2, tier 3 then export started this is a cycle there is a life cycle of every industry if this life cycle is the government of congress in 1980 and 1970 where would the situation be congress first wasted 4 decades of India 4 decades lost decades of India because there were policies of congress in which manufacturing was completely knocked down made the law in which no one could manufacture there was such a situation before 1990 that if you want to change the design of your car then you have to come to the government's office there was such a mockery so you are saying baby steps today we are in such a situation in which manufacturing is needed the foundation is laid down in the next 5 years I will give you examples it is necessary to take numbers because we should talk with data we should not only talk with data mobile manufacturing practically it was a negligible number 10 years ago 55 billion dollars electronics manufacturing practically it was a negligible number how much is it today? it is 105 billion dollars and it is growing in double digit defense manufacturing nothing was there telecom manufacturing we could not even imagine that a veteran of some industry in the telecom industry could not even imagine that telecom manufacturing would be in India today it is exporting 1 billion US, Europe it is exporting everywhere what are the people of congress who have been able to answer their mistakes today and we are working hard the public is watching when we are working hard we have only few minutes left and I want these two very important questions that you are answering one fact checking unit means if the government starts checking then how will it go your work is something that is published on CNN TV 18 if you want to know who you will ask will you ask CNN TV 18 will you ask who will ask will you ask any news about any scheme then who will ask if you have work with the ministry you will ask you will ask with the ministry if you ask if it is related to the power ministry you will ask with the ministry it is so basic common sense you will ask the government you will ask with a private organization you will ask with a private organization if you don't like the question it is not a question it is a fact if the government doesn't like the fact then you can verify the verification it is said that how many vaccines are there who will ask from the government from the health ministry so you are saying that this is your decision absolutely correct and democratic and constitutional decision thank you very much thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you so much ladies and gentlemen let's have a huge round of applause once again for the minister Mr. Ashwin who was sharing his vision and thoughts on India's ambitious rail overhaul plan now it's interesting that we have been talking about transformations and what better way to take the day forward than conversation about one of the most visible transformations that are sweeping India ladies and gentlemen Jaipur is now within a near short distance from Delhi literally you can drive into the pink city from Delhi in less than 3 hours Mumbai and Delhi are considerably close to each other as well and in about a year's time you should be able to drive between the national capital and the financial capital in 12 hours would you believe that soon you will be able to drive from Delhi to Bherabun in 2.5 hours Delhi to Amritsar in 4 hours Delhi to Srinagar in 8 hours this ladies and gentlemen was unthinkable until not too long ago development indeed delivers good economics can be good politics too or can they well let's hear it from the person who has been making all this happen for India ladies and gentlemen it's my privilege to welcome Sri Nitin Gadkari union minister of road transport and highways government of India to talk about the road to 370 well it is the election year and he is in conversation with news 18's Amish Devgan huge round of applause ladies and gentlemen welcome sir thank you and now the beginning of that session which we had been waiting for for a long time Nitin Gadkari is with me he is the central minister he is the former president of the Indian Party Nitin Ji is your guest please welcome Nitin Gadkari Nitin Ji used to be known as Atal Bihari but the party is wrong and after Atal Ji if it is said for anyone then it is said for Nitin Gadkari that the person is right but the party is wrong why is that this is absolutely wrong the party is also right and the person is also right I started my life as a member of the union and as a member of the college and whatever I am whatever I am whatever is good in me these are both the reasons for the union everything is good so I am very much proud of my convictions and if I am good then my party is good and if I am good then my ideology is good that is what I can say to you but don't you think that you came from the wrong in politics you say that I will not write a poster then how will you win the elections Gadkari ji if you come to my constitution then I have said that I don't believe in casteism and Sam Pradayik our Prime Minister has said everyone's support, everyone's development everyone's effort in my constitution I consider my family and my family and for 10 years I have done some work and my work has also been done and that is why I have said that there is no need to make a poster or banner there is no need to spread it if I am connected with people then I don't need to give them any kind of service in return I will meet people I will go to people's houses I will give them blessings and I will campaign house to house and I will campaign to man and I believe that I will win the elections I believe that this time we have to do 3 Hettric one is the Hettric of the Modi Government if a Narendra Modi comes in this term then it will be a big thing some foreign congressman will come for the third time and for the second time and for the third time you will win again from Nagpur for the third time and for the third time you will win the Lok Sabha the first thing is that Modi is going to be the Prime Minister the second thing is that we are going to go to 400 and I am also going to win this is also certain but what is there in Nitin Gadkari that the leaders of Vipaksh get confused I used to read in the newspaper that Sonia Gandhi praised you what is it? I am also surprised when in my department there were 75 organizations of different parties everyone gave me thanks everyone gave me a blessing I was also surprised the simple thing is that according to the law according to the law it should be of everyone and if something is wrong then it should never happen so if I make a road then in one constitution if I study then because of that there is a solution that is probably the reason one thing that you have not changed which I interviewed you for the first time in 2011 which comes to my mind in Mumbai at your house and you were a member of the party then also you were a member and now you are very much a member you never get so much of a member you get so much of a member no no I when I ask a question the answer is correct and I think the truth I tell I don't think there is any problem but Vipaksh keeps on removing something no no one and social media bloggers also keep on writing no sir some people they write on their website on their own media and then others write but in the end what someone has said should go into detail should see and then should give an opinion on it one question that I want to ask you that you are a member so you are also a member in front of the Prime Minister in front of the Prime Minister in front of the Prime Minister when there is a discussion then the number of members listens to the Prime Minister there is a foundation of the party and everyone has their own thoughts and the final decision or the Prime Minister or the leader the decision is made now I have a very headline story a statement of Uddhav Thakre I am a Marathi person and I will listen to you and I will take a reaction from you what Uddhav Thakre said about you come let's listen to Uddhav Uddhav Thakre's statement Uttar Marej he was challenging me and I asked how can we do a good job I am going to tell you show the power of the Maharashtra show the power of the Maharashtra we have not given up on the Maharashtra now Nitin Ji is saying that here you are we will give you a ticket we have never given up on the Maharashtra now the first thing is that The country board meeting was held in Madhya Pradesh, Gujarat, and Uttar Pradesh's officials decided to discuss the truth. Now, when I was fighting with Maharashtra, the officials of Maharashtra came to the country and did not even discuss it. So, in the first list, my name was not mentioned in the first group. Now, in the second list, my name was mentioned. I work for the Indian People's Party. If I fight, I will fight with the Indian People's Party. There was no question of going to any party. And this kind of offer is very good because I am connected with my party, I am connected with my thoughts. I will be in this party and I will work in this party. Yes, but the last few days, you said that the government of any party is one thing that doesn't get respect for what they do. Why did you say that? I didn't say that. This is wrong. Yes. I said that this happens in the system. I had said about the people who work in the government in particular. Before that, my suggestion was that they don't get respect if they do a good job. And the bad job that they do is punished because the system is so complicated that a good person doesn't get an award immediately. And the things that they do, as soon as they get the inquiry, they leave for so many years. That they don't get punishment. This was their case. This was not related to politics. This is not related to you, but it is related to your gun. Without a reference, they spread such things. These days, the blame of social media is also on the media. Now, there is a lot going on in social media. It doesn't happen like that. The wrong click on social media, you immediately take it and take it forward. This is the problem. Yes. My next question is, in 2022, you said that politics is considered to be illegal. You never said that. This is your statement again. Sir, it is absolutely wrong. I said that we need to redefine the definition of politics. Only power politics is not political because of power. Yes. Because of the social, political, and development, this is also politics. Mahatma Gandhi Ji said that when the country was under attack for independence, it was also under attack for the sake of the kingdom. So, we should do 80% of the social and 20% of the power. And you will also see the day after tomorrow. I have given 87 chair parties to Divyango. I have operated around 50,000 hearts. I saw your Twitter this morning. You tweeted a video on it. A girl had a hole in her heart. You have treated her. In her constituency. Really, I mean, she says that all this is a very serious matter. But if we talk about politics, Mr. Nitin, then there are political leaders in Delhi. And if there are political leaders in Delhi, then something is going on. So, is it a matter of alliance? Look, that morning, Mr. Raj Thakre had called. He had come for another job. His passport job was done. So, I came to thank him. Where is his passport? India's passport? No, his passport. What will be his conversation? I don't know if it will happen today. But you want Raj Thakre to come? But he will do a party for it. What is your mind? No, I don't have any personal mind. The party's prime minister, the party's secretary, and the parliamentary board, the prime minister, will do whatever they want. You are answering a lot of questions about the seat-battwara in Maharashtra. There is a lot of information about the sources. But if you are sitting in front of me, I will ask you, what is going on there? Nothing is going on. I think the battwara is done. Are you happy with the life? Yes, sir. What is done until the candidates are done? Yes. There is only one seat. There are 10 candidates. There is a lot of discussion going on. There is a lot of debate going on. It is obvious. And I think it will be almost finalized. And we will fight together. And we will win the Maharashtra very well. That is my belief. India has been in trouble for many years. But this time, a new one has been made. India Alliance. But before it was formed, there was a fight. How do you see the India Alliance? Because there is a big challenge in Maharashtra. I see my party and my alliance. I have a philosophy that I tell people. Two races are yours and the other is yours. Two ways to grow a race. One is to grow yours or to ask others. So I believe in this. Grow yours. And for the last 10 years, in the leadership of Modi, our government has done something. People who love it. When I was coming on my Twitter, this is the expression of the door. So so many people are happy that I got the recognition of so many people. So in the last 10 years, what we have done, in the government, in the leadership of Modi, we will be successful. We have to tell people about our positivity and our work. We don't need to go into other negative things. Another question is to give 10% protection to the Maratha community separately. There is politics but there is also a social demand. How do you see that this issue will be a big political challenge in Maharashtra for the Indian party? The Prime Minister has already been talking to him about this. Now this issue is not there. You are saying that this is not there. But there is a challenge. There are many questions about it. Rahul Ji has said that this is the biggest challenge of BJP. I think that there is still a discussion in the Supreme Court. When this matter is subjudiced in the Supreme Court, then there will be no tip on it. There will be a contempt of court. Don't do it. I wouldn't do it either. It won't be appropriate to talk too much about it. No, no. There is also an agreement that most of the BJP members have got an infrastructure company for a long time. Now this is an agreement. Look, I can tell you one thing. I have awarded the work of Rs. 50 lakh crore in the last 10 years. Water resources, shipping, road sector, roadway, cable car, tunnel, express highway. We have not done any work without E-Tender. And I am warning you in front of you, that even one person will be like this. You will be told in the ears that we will have to pay for any work. So you tell me, I am ready to accept the punishment. We have done the work with a completely transparent, corruption-free, time-bound and quality commitment. And we have done the wrong work in some way. There is a lot of discussion in Delhi and Mumbai about this. BJP is rich, but the politician is poor. Congress is rich, but the politician is poor. What is your tip on this? I think that, look, who is rich in his life? This is a question related to him. But I often say that a person who is honest in his life and who is responsible for his business, his entrepreneurship, his company, his technology, this is his strength. And if such an entrepreneur grows in the country, then the country will be developed. And I think that tomorrow, we will invest in these entrepreneurs in foreign countries. So we have to create such a meaningful thing that is going to make employment possible. And if we want to make employment possible, then capital investment will be required, entrepreneurship will be required, technology will be required. And if we work in different fields based on this, then he is not just a wealth creator, he is an employment creator. His caste, religion, language, and party, what should we take from this? But you were talking about caste and religion, so many questions are being answered regarding the CA. Why did the CA choose Anne earlier? Her notification could have been brought later or it could have been brought three years ago. Look, there are a lot of things in the constitution. Yes. It is absolutely clear that the Hindu religion, Boddha religion, Sikh religion, or Jain religion, if they go abroad, then if they are removed from there, then there is no right to go there. And that is why in a self-evident way, our constitution tells them that they can only be given law in India. So naturally, there are a lot of things in the constitution. What is the basis for that? Yes. One question is related to your ministry. You have made a word record in terms of the constitution. Not one, not two, but seven word records. Is there any work that you could not do in the past 10 years? And now when the BJP will come in the 70s, then they will want to do it. What is the work? Look, right now, in the road construction, we are building a 36 green express highway. Yes. And around 284 kilometers, we are building a tunnel of 2 lakh crores. And from Kashmir to Kanyakumari, we are building an express highway. It will be completed by December. Now we have started public transport and electricity. 260. Yes. We are building a cable car, a fanicular railway. Now, Prime Minister's thought is that when we will complete 100 years, then what will be our vision at that time? So, public transport and electricity. Water transport. Yes. Like when I was a Shipping Minister in Mumbai, there was a new airport in Mumbai. So, I have made a report from BPD that you will go to the airport in 17 minutes from any direction of Mumbai. And there is a new JTV on the new airport. Yes. Like, there is a taxi, there is an air taxi, and there is a water taxi. Yes. And you will take this water taxi from Vasai Virar, from Nariman Point, and you will reach the new airport in just 17 minutes. You have a Venice city in Italy. Yes. When you get down in the hotel and in the water, you have to keep your luggage and get down directly to the airport. So, this is the same idea. So, public transport, the NPBSC plan, I had used it to get down on the water. Yes. So, there will be a big revolution in the transport system. And especially, based on the indigenous fuel, there is a big bus like public transport. So, I was studying in Bangalore that there is a double-decker bus that runs in the air in Bangalore. We were studying that project. It runs on the top, because no road can be bigger. So, naturally, the cost of metro is 300 crores per kilometer. And the technology I am talking about is 20 to 25 crores. So, by using the new technology, from Dhola Kua to Manishar, we also studied the Pond system in the middle. So, this new technology in the transport sector is the technology of the future. And about that, we also had some updates. We are making 670 roads and amenities. Yes. But if you ask me, What is one thing you would like to do? I could do the best thing in all of this. Yes. So, in 2014, when I became a minister, one crore people used to work to attract people. One was a cycle rickshaw. The other was to wash the people's work in Bihar, in Bangalore, in North East. I brought the Mechanist D1 e-rickshaw. And today, I am happy that one crore people who were suffering, got rid of them. And now, e-carts and e-rickshaws are running. And they got rid of human suffering in one way. I have made a lot of express highway, tunnel, road, bridges. But this work is the best for me. It is near your heart, but one round is near our hearts. And this is a photo round. And there will be some pictures in it. And you are getting its reaction. And I don't even know which photos they have put. First, let's see which one is coming. This is the first photo. This is Mamta Ji's photo. They are hurt on the side. What do you want to say? It has become an accident, so it must have been a bandage. Yes. Let's see which one is coming next. What will be of these two? One is... I don't know the future. You don't know the future. They say that you are doing everything. You are making the government do ED. Look, ED is doing its work. And they are doing their work. We often believe that our future is in the hands of God. Your future... No, your future is in the hands of God. But what is their future? I don't know. You don't know. I am not in the future. What will happen to me? Let's see which one is coming next. This is in Mumbai. They all came together in your house. What is their future? Look, their future is not good. It is not good? They will be completely destroyed in this election. And we will get four hundred places. And many of them will be destroyed. Yes. Now the next picture is not of politicians. Now that movie... Because you come to Maharashtra, Maya Nagri, Mumbai, there are some movie painters. Let's see which one is your favorite. Next, please. Do you like Ranveer Kapoor? Do you like Singh? Or do you like Vikrat Messi? No, I am the hero of my generation. You don't have to talk about the choice. The three are good. One is perfect. Which movie did you watch in the last three? I watched Ranveer's movie. Which one? The one... Animal. Not the name, but the one on our screen. Okay, okay, okay. Ranveer's... Bajirao Mastani. You also gave a political answer. Let's see the next one. Who is your favorite? These are the heroines. Which movie did you watch? Tapsee Pannu, Alia Bhatt, Keara Advani. No, I didn't watch any of these three movies. You didn't watch? The three top heroines of the country. Let me tell you something. The heroines of the generation are different. In our generation, Abhidha Bachchan was our favorite hero. Who did you follow in college? When you were in college, who would you follow? Abhidha Bachchan. Abhidha Bachchan. I told him once. I saw Ranveer three times. Anand three, four times. So, Bell Bottom, parents, long callers, everything. I used to like the picture of fighting. So, you are going into politics, that is, you are going into the struggle of elections. This is the biggest priority of the great democracy of India. It is very good news, Mr. Nitin. And News 18 will also cover it with Vibhaki. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Amish. Thank you, Minister. That's Minister Nitin Gadkari who has been leading the Modi government's infrastructure push and spelling out his roadmap for political success. Thank you once again. Ladies and gentlemen, for our next session, January 22nd, 2024 is now going to be etched in the annals of history. The Pran Pratishta ceremony of the Ram Mandir at Ayodhya was just not any religious ceremony. It was so much more than that. It made the world wait to take note. A momentous step in Bharat's civilizational journey, a landmark process of Bharat's decolonization. Our next session is a conversation with the Prime Minister of India. He is the Prime Minister of India. He is the Prime Minister of India. He is the Prime Minister of India. Our next session is a conversation with two very special people. Now, here's an anecdote that a family will repeat for generations to come. Chandrakant B. Sompara, the principal architect of the Ayodhya Ram Temple, was the first approach to design and build the temple in the year 1989. Decades later, his two sons, Nikhil and Ashish Sompara, have assisted him in the creation of the Ram Mandir. While the Ram Mandir has several firsts, it being a symbolic of unwavering faith and devotion, the ornaments of Ram Lalla is what actually stands out for its sheer brilliance and grandness and the exquisite attention to detail. Yatendra Mishra, the man who prepared the jewellery of Lord Ram, carried out extensive research. In fact, ladies and gentlemen, he studied the texts such as the Abhyatma Ramayana, Valmiki Ramayana, Ram Charitra Manis and the Alvanendra Stotram for the preparation of Ram Lalla's exquisite jewels. 132 artists, would you believe that, worked on it. Every ornament was detailed and prepared with such precious jewels and with such precision. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Ashish Sompara, Ram Temple architect and Yatendra Mishra, historian and Ram Lalla idol jewellery designer in conversation with News 18's Anand Narasimhan for an amazing, interesting session titled, Spirituality and Temples of Boom. Let's have a huge round of applause for our guests. Welcome. Thank you, Anand. Vicky, we have the architect and some of the key designers. People who have worked tirelessly. Can we please be a little generous in our welcome on the Rising Bharat Summit. Thank you. Thank you very much for making the time, Ashish Ji and Yatendra Ji. Thank you. Ashish Ji's father, his brother, they're all instrumental in reviving a Shaili, which is one of the three remaining Shailis of construction of temples. Ashish Ji starts from there and then Yatendra Ji will come to the effort that's gone behind Ram Lalla. You have a connection with Ayodhya, so we'll talk about that too. But how important is this Shaili, the Nagara Shaili? Sumna Temple, Akshar Dham temples and now Temple of Ram Lalla. Shailis are basically divided from the south to north. It's divided the Indian continent, the whole Indian, the original Indian continent. It's been divided in the north, middle and the southern. And each and every Shaili is being like, the basics are the same but according to the climatology, according to geographical condition, according to the material what you are getting, from that part it has been developed in certain ways. But the Nagara Shaili, which is like the northern side from the whole, if you can say the Gujarat, Uttar Pradesh and all that, that is covered by the Nagara Shaili. And Vasera is on the audition style and the Davidian style is in the south, basically. The concepts are different, the material is different. But I can say one thing, Nagara Shaili has been developed in a certain way that it has been architecturally well developed. The whole Shaili is well developed. Because in this, particularly for every god, because it is also our north-west Jainism, but in that Nagara Shaili, every god has a different style, a different individualistic approach, a particular architecture. So Nagara Shaili is a well developed Shaili in the northern part. So obviously, and Ram Mandir is also in the northern part of India, that Shaili's style was created at the same time when it was designed in the year 1999, that Nagara Shaili has to be built. But in the 80s, when Chandrakant ji had imagined it, was this Shaili being developed? What has this boom of construction of temples done? The story behind it, because the temple is visible to everyone, tell us the story behind it today. As you can say, it was not developed, because my great grandfather, the one who built the Shaili was also from Nagara Shaili. Even in Nagara Shaili, there is a Shaili from Santar Prasad and Nirandar Prasad. So they also built the Shaili temple at that time. So it was not developed, but there were very few practices at that time. There were very few families, or you can say that some people were trusted, but definitely after Ram Mandir, there was a lot of work. How many workers have worked on it? If I talk about workers in Ram Mandir, then at least 5000-6000 workers have worked on it. 6000 workers, 6000 artisans. That is, 6000 families' lives have been running through this temple. Definitely. It has become a big thing for Jeevi Kajaland, that the temple construction is getting so much, that earlier the construction of the temple was less, so the boys of his family who do this work, because this was a generation after generation work, so it was getting very less, but after that it has become so popular that a lot of people are coming into it now and for the work of it, I mean, people are growing up to see the work of it. So do you think that the committee is also being completed? Yes, it is being completed. So there are more people turning to this as a profession. So if you have 108 pillars there, there are 108 pillars at every level of Ram Mandir, then how much time does it take to make one pillar? Look, there are basically two parts to it. One part is the carving part, which we call normal carving, and the other part is the sculpting part. So the sculpting part is done after the installation, because it becomes very fragile, so it cannot be handled during transportation or installation. So once it is done after the installation, it is done on site. So there are two parts, as I said, so the carving happens, but the iconography happens later. So if we look at the entire carving work, it takes almost 8 to 10 days to complete the work. It becomes 8 to 10 days? Only carving. I am not talking about sculpting. You are not talking about sculpting. Yes, because sculpting happens after the installation, so that is a completely different work. Mr. Yatinder, there is one thing. Ram Mandir is also there. The case has been won, the temple has been built. Why make such a big deal out of it? Many people will say that. What is the importance of this? I am not here to answer people's question. People say that Ram Mandir does not make any difference. It is a cultural aspect of India. The iconography that Mr. Ashish is talking about is a very difficult and difficult work. Because when an iconography is defined, we all see it together. So if an idol or a story is chosen in it, each mandap has a different system. The color mandap, the color mandap, the shape mandap goes forward and the shape mandap goes forward. What is the concept of Ram Mandir as shown there? It is not just Ram. Ram Mandir is also in the Garbhgri. But the concept of Garbhgri, the four sides of it that are made, is from the ancient philosophy which is the creation of the ten directions. Where is it inspired from? If you go to the temple, you will start from the outside, you will go to the end, and then you will go to the parkour. So the part of mythology in the iconography of India, whether it is in the past, or in the past, Ram Charitmanas and Valmiki Ramayana, it is present. It is also the incarnation of Vishnu, which is the foundation of Vishnu's greatness. It is the concept of the ten directions. What are the demands that are going on in the Vaishnava tradition, in the Vaishnava sect? All these things are being shown. When it comes to the parkour, we are showing it like a Indian tour guide, from the temple, to the temple, all the major things are being shown in India. We talk about torch bearers, and stories, and if it can be said, then go to the youth and see that we also had the news of Yagyaval and Gargi. We used to go to Ashtavakar and talk about some knowledge. So this is a mix blend of spirituality and the vision of religion. So in the form of India, and in the form of India, I feel that the temple is showing it very well. And when I talked about the ten directions, then you go and see the pride of Swami Trivandrum. So there is also the concept of the ten directions. So the entire family did this very well. The best architecture of the Nagar Shaili in the tradition of the thousand-year tradition, which also had a spiritual aspect, we brought it to Ram Mandir. Ashish Ji, Ram Mandir in Ayodhya, Akshar Dham in Akshar Purushottam, Swaminarayan Mandir in Abu Dhabi, is built in Robbinsville, is being built in Vishwabhar. If you will do all the work, then who will do the rest? No, no. Just like we have not done Robbinsville, and what we recently did, we have not done that too, let me tell you. Akshar Dham, which belongs to Gandhinagar, is our work. And by the way, I can say that our family is blessed that with the help of Somnath and Gujarat, the three great temples of Mahogya, Pawagad, Bhusharaj Ji, Amba Ji, all the work is done by our family. It is a blessing from God that we are doing it. So you have come into competition in this too? Competition? There is nothing like competition in this. Somnath is a community. In this community, the majority of people were still connected to this work. First of all, all of them were connected to this work. But as a matter of fact, a question came in between that the work of the temples has reduced a lot. How did people feel that doing this work, like carving stones, people starting to understand it, then the people of their family started going into other businesses, they started doing it. But our family was connected to this work. So you never felt like this? I don't want to do this. This is over, this time is over. No, I never felt like this. Because in our family, as they say, when a child is born, we keep seeing this. We keep talking to our father, we keep saying the same things at home. We keep reading books. So since childhood, it was like this. So you see it as a profession, you see it as a spiritual contribution. This is what I am contributing towards India's spirituality. How do you see it? It is a spiritual contribution. And we have a profession too. We can't even make up for it. Because we can't even say that our profession is not there because of the life we live in. But definitely, there is an attachment. When you say that when a child grows up, what happens in front of him is published in his library. So this is the thing that is published in our library. So when your father made it, the architectural drawing, Mr. Chandrakant made it, that time was different. When the construction happened, that time was different. So did you think that if I am going to be involved in the construction of the temple, I would want to make it like this? You thought that your imagination was different. What is it that you did differently? Or you did, which you felt that if there was a temple at that time, it would be like this? No, at that time, what Mr. Vidha had designed, it was perfect for that time. Because it was designed 30 years ago. So according to that time, what he had designed, was first Garbhagra, Godabandab, Nrithimandab and a Singh Dwar. The journey of 30 years of Ram Mandir was complete. From the media, from all the people, who were connected to it, gradually, when the construction came, then the football we were thinking was much bigger. So definitely, the soul is the same. You can say, clothes are made new, that's it. Yes, clothes are made new. How do you wear jewellery? Or do you wear clothes? How did you decide that, Mr. Inderjee? Because Ram Ji's appearance is mostly in Vanwas. He's in matted locks and, you know, barely wearing anything. Before his Rajya Bishik, when he was in Balpan, how did you decide how Ram Lala should be dressed? It's a very good thing. You asked, the character of Ram Ji and the form of him, he is the Vanwas Ram only. Because of that, he is everyone's servant. But don't forget that Ram Lala is in his temple, his father is in his mother's house. He is five years old. The five year old child, who came to his father's place, and the prince, will stay with Rajyopchar. Any elder man, who was a member of the Akhand Aryawarth, Raja Dashrat, when the concept of Ram Lala was given to me, that you have to develop a foundation for all the jewellery. It was challenging, but it was involved in all the dresses. And Shri Govind Dev Giri Ji Maharaj, we used to take instructions from him. And Jampat Rai Ji, used to give full support to him, that first of all, don't look at his example. How can we form Ram Lala? For the form of Ram Lala, the most prominent texts, first of all, Adhyat Pramayan, whose base, Tulsidas Ji, also talks about himself. So, Adhyat Pramayan, Ramcharitmanas Valmi's Ramayana was like a male, like Adhar. But in many texts, in many mantras, in many South Indian texts, Ram Lala is also a member of the Shringar. Yamuna Charya Ji, a great saint of South India, he wrote an album, that was written by Laxmi Narayan Ji, Tirupati Bala Ji, and in all the places, according to their Shringar, it is told there. All the instructions were like this. So, we had to take some from there, some from Kavita Bali, from Tulsidas Ji. Everyone has heard, Thumak, Chalat Ram, Chandrabajat, Pajaniya. So, Pajaniya should also be worn, because he is a child, and he will be 5 years old. And there are some particular things, which should be worn by Lord Ram, on his heart, Shri Vatsachand is made, he wears a costume. Now, what is a costume? A costume is a divine costume, but what is a costume made of? There was nothing like that. So, there were many mantras on it, then it happened that it is the Sun, the sun is red in colour, that is, we should use Ruby, so Ruby and Diamond in a big costume, in cutting, should be made into a big costume. So, in this way, it became his costume, it became the costume of Mokut. It is worn by Vajanti Mal, Vajanti Mal is Vijay Kamal. And, in the temples, you see, there is a big necklace of colourful flowers. So, it happened that it should be worn in a golden costume. So, as much as Vaisnaw Pratik, Lord Ram's Shank, Chakrabad, Gadda, all these things will be worn. Then, five types of flowers will be made in it. The five flowers say that they like God. So, in that, there was Lotus, there was Kamal, there was Kund, they also wear Kund's garlands. Parijat, Tulsi, so Tulsi, Tulsi Patra was put in it. So, in this way, we did small detailing of their costume, of Lord Ram. And, all the ornaments that were worn, were made to be relevant to the ancient texts. For example, there is a necklace of four or five boys, five or seven boys today. In those days, they were called Padik. So, Padik was taken out by Lord Ram. Similarly, Bajuband was called Bhojanga. So, we also kept its terminology that someone should do its detailing, someone should study it. And, this was a big challenge. There are many temples of Vishnu, many temples of Krishna, but, the temple of Lord Ram, was the first time, there was such an example, that, it was like a prince wearing a five-year-old hat. Yeah. My next question was the same. There are many temples of Lord Krishna. Now, like Govardhan, Shrinath Ji, Guruvayur, the South, Udipi. So, there are many places of Lord Krishna, but, the temples of Lord Ram, of Lord Ram, are not that much. The concept of Lord Ram's temple is very interesting. It is very unique, if any of you have gone there. Lord Ram is there, but, he is in many forms. If you go to Kanak Dhon, there, he is worshiped in the form of a son. There, he is Pahun. So, there, his appearance is of Sun-Allah. If you go there, in Ratansigha San, there, Raja Dhiraj Ram is there. If you go to Rangavahal, there, there is Rangadheer. So, in every form, he is in the form of Vanvasi Ram. Yes. But, Balakram, and Balakram, who doesn't know that he is going to get married, or he is going to get Vanvasi. He is in his parents' house, and, he is getting married, he is getting educated. So, in this form, you should see the temple of Lord Ram. So, there is one more question, which is asked in all forms, that the idol of Lord Ram, like Arun Yogira Ji, is in the black stone, and his colour is in the evening. Even though, he is always in the evening, but, Lord Ram is always in the evening, in the morning, and in the afternoon. His idols. So, there is a political dynamic of this, that, look, there is a Rujhan towards Dakshan Bharat, so, even from there, people are attracted to it, so, the idol is in the evening. I don't think so, because, in many places, the foundation of the idol, when, in those times, the idols were made, and especially in the old times, when the king was the one, or when, the king was the one, then, the one who would have liked it, the sculptors of that time, who would have stayed, they made it like that, and what form was liked. Shri Shri knows, we were all in it, when, three people made the idols, and one of the three people, so, one idol, the idol of the Pandey, was being made on white stone. It was made. Yes, it was made on white stone. So, the trust decided, that, which idol would be, and I think, that, this is my little, spiritual, answer, it has no political, connotation, to take. Lord Ram has decided, which idol to come, in the temple. That, that, and the feeling is like that, because, any idol, which was being made, Manish Ji, Manish Tripathi Ji, when, the idol of God, you see, with what feeling, Lord Ram, you see, in your devotion, Krish Ram, or Shiva, with what feeling, you get its manifestation, reflecting on it. So, I don't think, that, as far as I understand, as much as I am assisting, in the work of the temple, Nipendra Mishra Ji, any address, I don't think, that, any political, which is being made, or, from somewhere, someone must have said, that, that should be done, because, I myself, had organized the Mangal Dhwani, on 22nd, and after that, Lord Ram, had served, for 45 days, all the idols of the country, went out. So, I was given, free of charge, that, you do it, and I, no one, did any, did any, did any, did any, what does this temple mean, for all of us? Look, in this, basically, the construction technology, is our, the old technology, which is, to connect the stone, with the stone, So, in this, the iron, is not used? No, no, no. It is said, there is a lot of concrete, the iron, everything is put in. No, no, no. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, it is called the stone, and the stone opens up,아서,ired, just, just, just, the Tha then came, the plei, condition, treatment, so down, it, then, you know, the ancient temple, So, you are people who believe that Sanatan will exist for 2,500 years because there are a lot of people who believe that Sanatan will exist for 2,500 years because there are a lot of people who believe that Sanatan will exist for 2,500 years because there are a lot of people who believe that Sanatan will exist for 2,500 years because there are a lot of people who believe that Sanatan will exist for 2,500 years because there are a lot of people who believe that Sanatan will exist for 2,500 years because there are a lot of people for sharing such fascinating insights into the construction of the Ram Temple and the Sringar, the Sajavat of our Ram Lalla. Well, ladies and gentlemen, now let's get down to discussing something that concerns each one of us, all of us present here today. We can ignore it only at our own peril. It's about us, it's about our children, our families, it's about life and our planet. The changes that are sweeping the world could come at a cost. And this has also pitched sustainability and climate change to the mainstream of global policy making and business decision making. In fact, smart living ladies and gentlemen is about adapting the fruits of technology through models that are scalable, profitable, and importantly, ecologically and socially far more sustainable. Let's talk about these very pressing matters in a session titled Earth's Dividend Between Profit and Protection. Please join me as I call on stage Dr. Amina Grieb-Fakim, who's the former president of Mauritius and an award-winning scientist, Mr. Eric Solheim, former executive director United Nations Environment Programme or UNEP and the former environment minister Norway and they will be in conversation with News 18's Palki Sharma. Palki, thank you. Good afternoon, Namaskar. I would say this is the most difficult conversation of this summit because climate change does not have fun political one-liners. Climate change is not dramatic or urgent. Some 50 to 70 countries are going to polls this year. I'm not sure climate change is an election issue in even five of them. It's a footnote in most policy documents. It's everyone's problem yet no one wants to solve it. Summers are getting hotter, winters are getting colder, free weather is becoming more common, billions are being lost in economies, the world over, climate refugees pose the next big challenge and some countries face extinction. So what you want to ask today is what will it take for us and our world to take climate change seriously? With me are two very well qualified and eminent personalities to talk about this. Amina Gharipakim, former President Mauritius, also a biodiversity scientist. And Eric Solheim, former Executive Director of the United Nations Environment Program with an extensive career focusing on climate change. Welcome to Rising Bharat and to India. Amina Gharipakim, the world is talking a lot more about climate change but is this talk translating into policy and action? Are we doing better at mitigating the climate crisis than we were say ten years ago? Good morning and again Palki, thank you. Thank you. It's a great pleasure always to be back in India. We are here in India and we are heading precisely towards COP 29 which will be held in Baku this year. You've mentioned something very important, the climate crisis. I think we all acknowledge that climate change is a threat to the world, to our survival on this planet. And are we taking it seriously? You know, if we are to look at the crisis, the COVID crisis, I think it gives us an idea it's a harbinger of what's to come in the future. And what we find of course is that the concept rather than narrative is still shaped in the us and them, us, me, you, 85% of the global population living in global south and of course the 15% of the global north. We still haven't realized that we have one planet, there's no planet being. If we go back to the COPs, which have been of course the key institution looking at the climate crisis, we find that we still do not find, do not seem to be able to get the consensus around this issue. The successful COP may have been the COP 21 in Paris when the NDCs were approved and countries realized that we have a common, but we need a differentiated approach. And this differentiated approach comes down to money, comes down to finance. And we still, as we speak now, so many years after Paris, we still haven't come to the consensus of capitalizing the 100 billion dollars for helping adaptation. I'm not talking about mitigation, but I'm talking about adaptation. We have seen subsequently incremental narratives of the Bridgetown initiative. We talk about the loss and damage funds, but still they remain empty boxes. It becomes us versus them because someone has to fund climate action, Eric Solheim. And from where I'm seeing it, it's not a problem of money because there are governments that have poured billions of dollars into wars and the wars that suit them. So the money goes to Ukraine, but not necessarily to, say, the Sudan. So there is money. Is this a problem of lack of funds or lack of political will? The money is not a problem. That's what people speak about in international conferences, but it's not really the problem. And the reason for that is very simple. The price of solar energy has fallen by 90% in one decade. The price of wind energy has fallen by 85% in one decade. So if today, if you make the shift from solar, sorry, from coal or from fossil fuels into renewables, not only it's good for the health, everyone knows. Not only it's good for the earth, everyone knows. It's also very good for the economy. It's cheaper, and that's why the calculus of the past was a thing of the past. In the 20th century, if you wanted to grow the economy, there was no other way than coal. That's why Europe did it, America did it, China did it, and India started doing it. But today, you can grow the economy by renewables. And frankly, this is why Prime Minister Modi is now leading India in the right direction. Because, mind you, he gets the big picture right. Prime Minister Modi understands that climate change and environment action is not a burden for India. It's an enormous opportunity, it's an opportunity for more jobs, getting people out of poverty, but get doing it in a green way. And if I may add, maybe the best slogan I ever heard in India about this was OLA, the Uber of India, as you all know. They have a wonderful factor in Tamil Nadu. Long Tamil ladies making electrical scooters, and the slogan is really captivating. It says, Tesla for the West, Ola for the Rest. Because meaning, that barrel can get any number of jobs from moving into the green economy. You make interesting points, and you were telling me earlier that you believe that Indian culture is the best suited for climate action. Do you want to tell our audience about that? The Indian culture, you said, is better suited. Look, the old Brits had a, to put it mildly, very unfavorable view of the Hindu Dharma, or the traditional Indian culture. They saw it as a second-rate religion, with any number of millions of gods didn't take it seriously at all. Then switched to 2024. And Hindu Dharma looks like the most modern of all religions. Why? Because, look, in Christianity, while there is a strong drive to protect nature in Christianity, still the perspective is always that the human being is superior. Human being is superior to nature. While in Hindu Dharma, man is part of nature. Man is in nature. And that now looks such a modern perspective. And the old Indians, they venerated nature. They did it even to the extent of making God half animal, half human. I mean, Ganesh, half elephant, half human. Hanuman, half monkey, half human. And can there be a stronger signal of the unity of man, humans, and nature? Than making God half nature, half human. So what the Brits spoke so negatively about 100 years ago, is now looking as the most modern of all global thought systems. That's a very interesting perspective. Amina Hurid-Fakim, your thoughts on what India is doing. And countries like India, even China, have developmental requirements. Same with Mauritius, as the president I'm sure you've seen this firsthand. The challenges that climate change poses to you and your people. So you have to find a way to balance the two. How do you think these countries are doing? First of all, I just pick up to what Eric has just said. The approach that the global south and India, Asia, of course, and China. I think the approach is that we are very much part of the ecosystem and that we need to start respecting nature. And the solutions will be, of course, in nature. But you've mentioned something about the challenges of climate and how India and in most Asian countries, even China, are tackling. I think the plan is there. There is a game plan to address this. I think many of the rising emerging economies, of course, India is one of them, and they have the plan. But I have a but. We are all integrated in the global economy. And this, of course, is the lifeblood of any country. It is to see to it that trade increases so that jobs can be created. And my concern is that because of the competition, because of the moving geotechonic plates around the world, especially now that India and China are rising, is that there could be a break to this rise. And the break will come because when we start tying down trade to the climate, it's a good point, but there is a downside to it. It can become a break. I mean, I also have to bring in Africa, because this is where I hail from, is that there will be a tendency to link up trade to cleaner technologies. And those countries that haven't played catch-up, they will find big problems in terms of precisely benchmarking themselves to that level to see to it that trade happens. And that's what I fear will be the tendency moving forward. And I think this is where I think India, I'm sure, is already mindful of the way that she's going to progress in the future, because India is set to become a course. Now we are fifth, we're going to be, of course, higher in the ranking of emerging economies. So this is something that has to be borne in mind. You mentioned the debate on who is going to take responsibility, and that also brings us to the point of historical responsibility. And there are countries that have contributed more to emissions. Do you think that's a valid point that the global south makes? And do you feel let down by rich countries that do not put their money where their mouth is? Absolutely. I mean, if you look at the caution of Africa, it has been less than 3% in terms of global emission. The global north has been 25% as we speak. There has been many initiatives to capitalise the fund. And here I make a pledge for more funds for adaptation. And where we are falling short is that the needs of the global south, excluding China, is $1 trillion per year. And I don't see any country or any institution that is able to actually match and bring forward this amount of fund. So this will be the race. And again, the $100 billion which has come on board since Paris hasn't been capitalised. We still have a gap. And if you look at $100 billion in the world, the global economy of $100 trillion is not a lot. But I don't see the will or the appetite to take this risk to help poorer countries adapt. And this is where we are failing, because the future of the world will depend on the growth in the global south. And of course, the prosperity in global south matters. If you take one item like immigration, we find that how much this is impacting, of course, the global north and, of course, the global south economies. Is it domestic politics, Eric Suleim, that impacts this? Because we've seen climate deniers take high offices. We've seen the former US president who's in the race again. We've seen others. We've seen that when governments change, and now we're looking at many elections across the world, some regimes come with more intense and focused climate policies, and others do not. And we know that climate action requires consistency. So do you think domestic politics plays a role? And how can we change that? Look, first of all, because no one should blame India or the global south for climate change. The emissions of the United States of America, up to this point, are 25 times Indian emissions per capita. So stop blaming the global south. By the way, American emissions are also eight times Chinese emissions per capita. So get that out of the picture. The one thing the environment movement gets wrong, in my view, is it sometimes framing the message as a message for the young and trendy. But the message cannot be just for the young and trendy in Mumbai or Bengaluru. It must also be for the farmer in Uttar Pradesh or for the coal worker in Krakham or for the housewife in Telangana. And it must be for the people. And the message is sometimes also so incredibly boring it doesn't really work. So we need a better messaging to the people. And we need to do it much more about the love for nature, make it a lot more fun, a lot more exciting. And maybe the most important of all, get out the message that the green transformation is a help to the people, not a cost. It's an enormous achievement. I let me just give you a few examples from India itself. In Gujarat desert, the Adani group is now building the biggest individual solar and wind plant in the world. It's as much energy as all the hydropower consumption of my nation, Norway. And we are fully fueled by hydropower at a very, very high level of consumption. That one plant is as much as we consume overall in Norway. Then in Unkar Esvar in Madhya Pradesh, at the Narmada River, L&T and Hartex Solar and other companies are building the biggest floating solar in the world. Amazing. It's as much as four times the most controversial hydropower plant again in my nation, Norway. So it's big. And then Prime Minister Modi came back from Ayodhya from the Ram Mandir. His first step was to say, look, Ram was about energy. Can I serve the people of India better than launching an initiative for one crore, 10 million roofs of solar? The initiative is already out there. Go into the internet and Google it and look into whether you can apply for it. So and of course, all these are beneficial to the people, creating jobs, creating prosperity and making sure that India do not need to pay for oil from Norway or from Russia or from Saudi Arabia that can use the money for the people back home. But we need to change the conversation from a very boring, very sentinel, a few young people in the city conversation to this amazing conversation of how all people also farmers and workers, everyone will benefit from the green transformation. So change the conversation. That's an interesting point again. I mean, Aguri Pakim, we cannot talk about climate change and not mention big oil. And it's interesting that the last COP summit was hosted by one of the biggest oil producers in the world. There is again a debate on whether we should co-op them and can petrodollars meaningfully fund green transition? Is that the only way forward now? Well, Kee, there is a lot of conversation about oil. And I think last COP Dubai, they had big problem actually getting the wordings right in terms of phasing out oil. And unfortunately, if we co-op them down to brass tack, it would be difficult to phase out oil immediately. But I think what we can get from the oil industry is precisely their CSR in terms of capitalizing the global funds to be able to help countries adapt. And I think this is where we make a pledge because we are in election year in the United States, in India, in many of the major countries, we are going to go for election. So capitalizing the grid of the green fund will not be a priority for many countries. We are of course running out of time, but we make a pledge to the big corporations. And this is where the SDGs make a difference is that we are the MDGs because this is where we call for the contribution of the private sector. So if the private sector can help come on board and help capitalize the fund and help us reach this $1 trillion so that this global south can help adapt because again, I would say, the global north depend on the global south because we provide the branch on which we are all sitting for our own survival. So it's in our interest to find the funds to help adapt because mitigation is already happening. Also, COP summits tend to have a very big participation. 70,000 in the Dubai summit, which I understand that they want to bring more voices on board but it makes consensus that much more difficult. You mentioned the private sector. There's increasingly a pitch with sustainable products that are being pushed out in the market. Do you think that it's just window dressing as of now? Do you think that there is a serious commitment where the private sector is concerned that they want to make a difference and become part of climate change, climate action? So far, they have remained pledges and the pledges have been translated into solid dollars. But I think when you look at a country like India, for example, which has a very big agriculture base, while we actually lambast agriculture as being in the middle, I think India can play a key role in transforming the ag sector into a net absorber. And with these tools that India can bring in terms of technology and India has got very strong institutions in terms of addressing this, I think it can be a great boon in terms of addressing the climate crisis and becoming a net absorber and also create jobs. And here, I have a special plea to make because agriculture also means women and we need to empower women to bring them on board to become these game changers in terms of addressing the climate crisis. Eric Solheim, I have some data. Gen Z, 81% of them, according to a survey, the young generation, said that they were very concerned about climate change and they've talked about climate anxiety. Another set talks about the multiplication of climate-related litigation. People are taking their governments to court. What is your message to the youth? Do you think that making climate action legally binding and forcing policymakers to look at this is the only way forward now? I mean, all in favor of that, I mean, cannot be agreed more than to any global agreement which will enforce regulations on climate. However, there is no need to wait for that because acting on climate in India or any other place is creating more jobs, saving money on the budget and creating a much healthier and better society. So there's no need to wait for someone else. But if I may, since we've come maybe to the close of the conversation, also make a couple of challenges to India and what are the main issues India need to work on to do even better. I think one is still red tape. It takes too long to get permissions for renewable energies. That's, by the way, not just an Indian problem. It's the massive problem in the United States in Europe everywhere. One of the biggest win-makers in Europe told me, look, it takes a lot longer to get the permission to construct offshore wind than it actually takes to make, put up the windmills. And I think one reason why I state that Gujarat seems to be from, in the lead in India, maybe that they got the relationship to business right at an early stage. It's a more efficient system and more business friendly system. Tamil Nadu is also in the lead, maybe for some other similar reasons. So cutting red tape is essential. And the other which may not be so popular to talk about in India is the relationship to China. China is 60% of everything green in the entire world. Don't look to the west. They're far behind India. The only nation in the world which may be ahead of India is China. China's 60% of wind, solar, hydropower, electric cars, electric batteries, high speed, jail, whatever you look for, China's dominating. I think I'm going to interrupt there. Just one second on that. So the relationship between China and India's key because tapping into this technology for India while at the same time on shoring the jobs here. I mean, people in Bharat need jobs. So that is a first right issue for the development of renewables. India-China is a whole different conversation. Time is up, but I want one last word from you. Your message to climate deniers. Climate is happening. Climate change is happening. And I think all the indicators are pointing to this. But what I would like to see is more power, more technology, more finance to help us all together, right there because time is running against us. And let's empower the youth because I think they have it's their planet at the end of the day. So we need to empower them. We need our women to ask us to actually bring on board the changes that we'd like to see. Thank you. Right. As they say, we are the first generation to feel the impact of climate change. And we may be the last generation that can do something about it. Thank you very much for your thoughts and for being here today. Thank you so much, Dr. Tappin, Mr. Solheim. Thank you for your time. That was indeed a very insightful and informative session on climate change, which is the greatest threat that the world is facing and its devastating consequences, if not addressed at the earliest. Palki, thank you so much as well. And ladies and gentlemen, we are going to get ready now for our next session. It's going to be with a person who's among the most talked about political figures in East India these days. His career, ladies and gentlemen, took a definitive turn when on November 27, he decided to quit the Indian administrative service, or IAS, and he formally joined the party in power in the state. And during the past decade, he has played a key role in implementing several Marquis projects, including the Sri Mandir Parikrama project, the renovation and restoration of ancient and some revered temples throughout the state, and the Motharkar, which interestingly is an initiative to establish the dignity of the common citizen in government offices. Well, he now holds a cabinet rank position as the chairman of 5T, a charter of governance, emphasizing transparency, technology, teamwork, and time leading and transformation. Some say that he is the chief minister in waiting. Well, he just could well be that. Let's hear it from the man himself. Please join me as I welcome Mr. V.K. Pandian, who is the chairman of 5T, Udisha, for a session title, P2P, Udisha's new mantra in conversation with News 18's Zaka Jacob. Welcome. Let's have a huge round of applause, ladies and gentlemen. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, there are bureaucrats and there are politicians and there are politicians. We are extremely privileged and honored to be having Mr. V.K. Pandian. He was just telling us in the green room that this is his first live interview on any news platform. So can we have a round of applause? Thank you. Thank you. Sir, it's very difficult to get a chance to interview you because you've always been sort of behind the scenes and operating, of course, for the chief minister. What made you decide to take that plunge? You are now right front and center in public life. You've decided to enter politics full-fledged. What made you make that switch? I am with the chief minister of Udisha for the last 12 years in his office. And before that, I used to be the collector of his district called Ganja. I was inspired by him. The first reason I would say is that I was totally inspired by his commitment to the cause of people, commitment to public service. But one year back, if somebody has asked my friends that whether Mr. Pandian will join politics, everyone would have laughed. I would have also laughed about that. After COVID, the grievance of chief minister's office was closed as a precautionary measure. So after that, chief minister wanted that we should go to the villages. We should go to the people and do grievance. So one year back, we started that exercise of touching all the assembly constituencies and blocks for grievance, redressal of people. So when I went there, I realized that there is a strong connect with people. And I'm not being treated like a bureaucrat there. It was a little more than a bureaucrat. I was embalmed in some places. So I came and told honorable CM. And he also saw the videos of people, how they respond to me, how they connect with me, the emotions overflowing. And then the inner calling came that, OK, maybe I should not be covered by that screen of bureaucracy. I should come out and help my guru, the honorable chief minister of Odisha, as a nice disciple. So tell us a little bit more about your guru, your father figure. I mean, he will, by the middle of this year, become the longest ever serving chief minister in the history of India. He's already gone past Jyotipasu. I think he'll go past Pawan Chamling by the middle of this year. It has never happened in the history of India. And you have seen firsthand why it has happened or what makes him tick. So tell us, what is the success of his longevity? I don't know throughout the world you have any parallel of a democratically elected leader continuing in a space as popular as the chief minister of Odisha and winning election after election with a higher margin instead of anti-incumbency, having pro-incumbency. And he's now going to touch two and a half decades. He started in a decade when newspapers were ruling the roost, then came internet, then social media. So all these eras of public scrutiny he has stood. And his popularity ratings are the highest in the country for any chief minister. So I would say that one of the main reasons for his success is that he doesn't see politics as politics. He sees it as public service. And people also don't see him as a political leader. They see him as somebody who is there to serve them. I think that is the connect he has with people and which has made him very popular. What is the connect that you have? Of course, you've worked under him as a bureaucrat, you were his private secretary, you were district collector in his own district before that. But more than that, at a personal level, clearly something has inspired you to make that political plunge. It's a blessing to work with a great soul like him. I consciously use the word soul. It's more of values. It's not about a great leader doing great work. Many people will do great work. There may be great administrators. There may be great planners. This chief minister, Mr. Navin Patnaik, has a great soul. I consider it as a blessing to be with him for more than a decade. And I thought as a disciple, I should try and do something for him at this point of time to help him reach out to the people. That's my only objective right now. So for such a popular chief minister, many would ask, why is he then allying with the BJP? I don't think in Indian politics, you have seen an alliance between a ruling party and the main opposition party. So something must have happened. Okay. Why somebody joins an alliance? Somebody joins an alliance because they want to win elections. Somebody joins an alliance because they want to have an impact in the electoral map. Here is a chief minister who is so popular in the state and he gets three fourth majority every time, Mr. Navin Patnaik. The recently concluded panchayat elections, he won symbol election. It's based on party symbol. He won 90% of the seats. And the second party was 5% seats, BJP. So Mr. Navin Patnaik doesn't need an alliance to come back to serve the people. He doesn't need an alliance. You're saying BJP need an alliance? I would say the same thing about Mr. Narendra Modi, the honorable prime minister of India, whatever surveys you are showing, whatever others are showing, that he is going to become the prime minister of the country. Mr. Navin Patnaik is going to the chief minister of the state, undoubtedly. And Mr. Narendra Modi is going to be the prime minister. How I put it is, it is beyond, there are some things beyond politics. It is a mark of great statesmanship. That's how I put it. That two great leaders wanting to come together for a greater cause. It has significance as two great people coming together as a mark of statesmanship. It has nothing to do with politics. That's how I see it. That's how I put it. And even the chief minister thinks that way. So you said it has no electoral value either for BJP or for BJP. Earlier in the first part of the answer, you said, why do parties align with each other? They want to win elections. They want to change the electoral map. So is it that BJP needs BJD more or BJD needs BJP more? BJP doesn't need, BJD doesn't need BJP to form government in the state. And BJP may not need BJD to form government in the center. That's why I made it very clear that it is to do with two individuals who share a great friendship amongst each other and they see some things are beyond politics and that is where you see a rare mark of statesmanship. I consciously use the word statesmanship. It is nothing to do with politics. It is beyond politics. So where is the status of that alliance right now? Because PM came, I think earlier this month, he praised Navin Patanayak as a low Priya Neta. But we haven't heard anything ever since. I think if anything happens, we'll all get to know. No, that's why I'm asking you. We're better to ask than you. We'll all get to know if something happens. But I told the logic behind this, whatever talk has happened also, I told the logic behind it. It has nothing of electoral significance either to Odisha or to the country. It is more to do with statesmanship. Okay. Talking about statesmanship, clearly Navin Babu is a statesman in his own right. Like I said, he has already gone past Jyothi Basu's record and if he wins this election, which like you said is almost a certainty, he will become the longest serving Chief Minister in the history of India. We have called this session P2P. So depending on which way you want to see it. Poverty to prosperity, Odisha transforms. That's the way you would like to see it. We would like to see it as from Patanayak to Pandian. No, no, no. So please tell us, are you Mr. Navin Patanayak's political successor? I don't think I should answer this. The people of Odisha will answer it. And I succeed his values. I succeed his hard work. I get inspired by his sincerity, commitment and keeping politics away from public service and doing service to the people. That's how these are values I have imbibed from the Chief Minister. Politics can come later on whenever whatever people think it's fine. The reason people are asking this is because the BJD, like some other parties we've seen that in the history of Indian politics where succession has always become a bit of a dicey situation. We've seen that with ADMK, we've seen that with Shiv Sena. So in the BJD there is no obvious political successor. Are you the obvious political successor? Let me put it this way. The Chief Minister is so popular and he is so meticulous in doing everything. He has transformed the state of Odisha from where it was and what it is now. And BJD is the vehicle which he created to transform the state. Such a futuristic thinking Chief Minister who holds people of Odisha in his heart will definitely have planned out something for the BJD which will be rocking as always he does. But he's not shared that with you. I think he tells always that people of Odisha will decide who will succeed him. We all follow that. In fact, when somebody asks Biju Babu when he was alive, who is going to succeed you, he also told the same thing that people of Odisha will decide. Finally, democracy one bows to the peoples. So, talking about your political debut, just as you decided that you're going to get into politics, you also said that you're not going to be fighting the elections. You're not going to get into electoral politics. Why? I was very clear when I took this decision I'm going to help the Chief Minister come back with three-fourth majority to serve the people again. That's my one and only objective right now. I see only that in my eyes. In politics, obviously, you'll be the subject of scrutiny by a lot of people, your political opponents, by the people of the state. When they attack you with the outsider tag, how do you respond to that? I know that last three-four years I have been the central point of attack of everyone in Odisha politics. Most of the opposition parties attack me. So, that's part of the game. And whether I succeed or not, it's up to the people of Odisha to decide. But when they say that you're originally not from there, you're from Tamil Nadu, they have to come and see some of the meetings which I have with the people and the emotions which they pour out when they see, when they interact or when they talk to me, I think that will clarify how they hold me, whether they hold me as one of theirs or whether they hold me as an outsider. It's the people of Odisha who finally decide. I mean, you're also a fluent Odia speaker by virtue of your bureaucratic career, of course, you're married to an Odia native. But beyond that, for people to accept somebody who is from a different state, I mean, the only comparable example I can think of and probably you'll relate to this is MGR, coming from one state and contesting in another state, even Jalalitha to an extent. What is it about our people in India in different states that they wholeheartedly give love to even someone who may not be originally from their place but are considered one of their own? People are very smart and intelligent. If Naveen Patnaik has succeeded so many years in Odisha, it's because people see his clear heart. He has heart in the right place. And they know that this guy wants to change Odisha, transform Odisha. And he is spending every minute of his time for Odisha and its people and its growth. So when people are so intelligent and smart, they will judge what is what and who is who. And that's how I think the connect which I have with people is the same. The connect that you have with the people is the same because people believe that you are wanting to do this as a service and not, but that's what all politicians say. Time will tell that. Whether I have meant what I say or whether I have some other hidden agenda, time will say. But I leave it to the people to judge whether I stand by the service mind which I got from the chief minister. So you did say that Odisha has transformed, no doubt in the last 20, 25 years, it has transformed as a state. And I want to deal with both ends of it. At the welfare end, at the lower end, obviously there are various programs that Naveen Babu has launched from Kaliya to the BSKY program, the Mission Shakti. Now, over the last year or so, there has been this whole thing in politics, this whole narrative and counter narrative that many of these things are freebies or ravebies. How would you respond to that? There are some things which one should call it as responsibilities of a welfare state. Health, education, taking care of food security of the vulnerable people. All these one should, even United States does, take care of health, take care of education. You have public schools, you have public hospitals. What the chief minister has done is, why there should be a quality difference between a public school and a private school. He invested in public schools, transformed the public schools, like private schools are better than private schools. I'll be happy to share that we have about 8,600 high schools in the state. We have transformed all the 8,620 high schools in the state. We don't have blackboards in these schools. We have smart boards like these digital boards in these schools and we have science labs, class science labs, modern laboratories, libraries, e-libraries at high school level. So he wanted to empower the people of Odisha to make them dream big for their children because 70% to 80% of the children will always be dependent on public schools. So he transformed the public schools and made it as good or better than private schools. He also transformed the hospitals, public hospitals, government hospitals, as good as or better than private hospitals. So this is where he spends money. So health, education, food security, these are things which any government should do for its population and people are happy about it and if you want to take the state to the next level, 70% of the population who are dependent on public institutions should have the best access to public institutions. When you do that, you actually empower the people and make them dream big. That's when a state will go forward. I also want to ask you about the Shreemandir Parikrama project which is the temple heritage corridor project, restoration of the Puri Jagannath temple, as well as other temples you were telling us a short while back. There are 10,000 temples that have been revived and restored in the state. How would you respond to the charge that why should a secular state be in the business of restoring or reviving temples? I think it's part of our culture. Temples are an integral part of your culture. It reflects your history. You draw strength from your, you draw strength from your faith you have on these temples. You get peace there. So it is but natural for a government to honor the faith of people. In a democracy, people's faith is reflected in vote. When you are voted to serve them, it's important that you honor their faith. If Muslims have faith in mosque, restore their mosque, restore their burial grounds. If Christians have faith in churches, restore their churches which are broken during cyclone. Orisa is prone for cyclone. If Hindus have faith in temples, restore their temples. If Sikhs have faith in Gurudwara, do that. And we have a huge tribal population who have faith in their tribal gods. The chief minister has restored almost every symbol of religious institution of the tribals as well. So it is honoring the faith of people. So you call it a secular, I call it a spiritual governance which the chief minister believes in. It's a spiritual governance. It's not secular governance. You have to run the extra mile to take care that people's faith is honored. You don't think this will be a point of difference between you and the BJP because you split the alliance in 2009 after the Kandamal riots? That is a communal issue. There is a difference between being communal and spiritual. Here the chief minister has protected, preserved, conserved religious institutions of all religions. That's what I meant by spiritual governance. You honor this faith of people. I also want to talk about, and of course a lot of our viewers are well acquainted with this. Odisha has of course become a big hub, a big center for sports and sports promotion, particularly hockey. You've got world-class stadiums now in Rao Kehla, in Bhuvaneswar. The Hockey World Cup, you hosted the Hockey World Cup. What explains Odisha and particularly your chief minister's love for sports? I believe you are also a sports candidate. Yeah, I'm also from sports hostel. I was trained to be a professional athlete. I left, maybe I was a middle distance runner and left halfway through because my father asked me whether you want to continue as a sports person and end up in railway stations as TTE after playing nationals or you want to go a little further. That was the ecosystem which sports has. Unfortunately, we have improved a bit on it, but still a long way to go for India to make our sports merchants into professional sports. And regarding your question about hockey and Odisha, half of the Indian team at one point of time or 30% of the Indian team had players from Odisha. People of Odisha are in love with hockey, many parts of the country. But in Odisha, hockey is celebrated. You will get, even for local matches, you will get such huge crowds for hockey. Our chief minister is also a hockey... used to be a hockey player, used to be a goalkeeper. And his father had told a very interesting anecdote. Linking hockey and the Indian national movement. Linking hockey and the Indian freedom movement. The Indian freedom movement, right. So when India was not conceived as a country, we were fighting for our independence. The only place where India was representing is India was in Olympics, even before independence, British India, whatever you call it. So the goal models used to come from hockey. When India was an idea, we were fighting for independent India. At that point of time, India was honored at a world stage because of hockey. So that is something which Biju Patnaik, who used to be a freedom fighter, led Biju Babu, he had told his son, Navin Patnaik, that we all got inspired, that India, at least somewhere it is making a wave, at least through hockey, it made an impact for itself. That we are getting gold in Olympics. So that is something which gave that emotional connect to our Chief Minister. And people of Odisha are deeply in love with hockey. So he thought that we should take up hockey seriously. And we are the only state perhaps in the world who is supporting a national team. A provincial government supporting, sponsoring a national team. Generally a national team is sponsored by corporates. The Chief Minister wanted that we let send a message, this game has contributed for, at least indirectly during the Indian national movement, to make Indians feel proud about something when they were fighting the British. So perhaps that is the reason why he took it up as an emotional thing. And it gelled well with Odisha. All right. So in fact, Odisha sponsors both the men's and women's hockey team. So can we have a round of applause? Senior and junior. Senior and junior. So that is an incredible thing. It's generally corporates who sponsor teams, but here you have a state government sponsoring. So finally, Mr. Pandit. And after 38 years, 40 years, India won a medal in last Olympics in Beijing. Correct. After Odisha sponsored. Of course, the credit goes to our players, the support team and everyone. But Odisha had a small role in that. Odisha had a small role in India getting a medal after three decades. So finally, is Mr. Pandian the middle distance runner ready for the long distance marathon of politics? I take one day at a time. I don't see anything long term. In human life, you should take one day at a time. Not then you are stressful. This is something which I learned from our chief minister. Very spiritual. Take next minute. Live with, live in the moment, present moment. So for this day and for the last 25 minutes, Mr. Pandian, thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, give me a round of applause. Thank you so much for the very important advice. Live each day. And that was Odisha's influential bureaucrat now serving the people of the state with utmost dedication and selflessness and sharing his vision for the state's development. Well, ladies and gentlemen, since the morning, we have had some fascinating discussions over some thought provoking issues and some burning topics. You can dig deeper over lunch, which will now be served at the Sharjah Hall. So take a break, enjoy yourself, enjoy this conscious meal and we will have you back soon after lunch. Thank you so much. Well, let's hear it from the person who has been making all this happen for India. Ladies and gentlemen, it's my privilege to welcome Sri Nitin Gadkari, Union Minister of Road Transport and Highways Government of India to talk about the Road to 370. Well, it is the election year and he is in conversation with News 18's Amish Devgan. A huge round of applause, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome, sir. Thank you. And now, the beginning of that session, which we had been waiting for quite a while, Nitin Gadkari is with me. He is the Union Minister of Road Transport. He is the former President of the Indian Party. Nitin, this is your guest. So, with a big round of applause, let's welcome Nitin Gadkari. Nitin, it was said about Atal Bihari Vajpayee. He is a good person, but the party is wrong. And after Atal, if it is said for anyone, then it is said for Nitin Gadkari that he is a good person, but the party is wrong. Why is that? This is absolutely wrong. The party is also right, and the person is also right. I have started my life as a member of the union, as a member of the union, as a member of the union, and whatever I am today, whatever is good for me, these are both the reasons for the union. Everything is good for me. So, I am very much proud of my convictions. And if I am good, then my party is good. And if I am good, then my ideology is good. I can say the same thing to you. But don't you think that you came from politics by mistake? You say, I will not apply a poster, I will not spend tea and water, so how will you win the election, Gadkari? If you come to my constituency, then I said that I do not agree with Jatiyevad and Samprad. Our Prime Minister has said, along with everyone, everyone's development, everyone's efforts. So, I consider my family and family members of my constituency as my responsibility. And for 10 years, whatever work I did, my name has also been met by people and my work has also been met. And that is why I said that there is no need to apply a poster, a banner or anything else. Secondly, if I am connected with people, then I do not need to serve them in any way in exchange for a coat. I will meet people, I will go to people's houses, I will take out a gift from them, I will take the blessings of the brave people. And I will campaign house to house and man to man. And I am sure that I will win the election and I will win the election. This time, we have to do three head tricks. One is the head trick of the Modi government. If a Narendra Modi comes in this term, then it will be a big deal. A non-congress government will come for the third time, for the first time, for the second time, for the first time. And for the third time, you will win Nagpur again. You will win for the third time. So, how difficult it takes. The third term of Modi, and the third time of yours, you will win the Lok Sabha. This is the third term of Modi, this is the final. The second term is that we are going to win the 400 power. This is the final. And I am also going to win the election. This is also the final. But what is there in the Nethinkadkari that the leaders of the party become the leaders? I was read in the newspaper that Sonia Gandhi praised you. What is it? This is a surprise to me because in the parliament, when 75 members of the party spoke in the different parties, everyone thanked me, everyone said that I was surprised. So, one thing is that according to the law, according to the rules, it should be done by everyone. And if it is wrong, it should never be done by ourselves. So, if I make a road, then I should be in one constitution and leave it for others. So, whatever people bring to me with a problem, I tried to do everyone's work. So, because of that, the first time I interviewed you, in 2011, which I remember, in Mumbai, in your house, and you were a member of the party, then you were a member of the party and now you are a member of the party. You don't have to be this much a member of the party. No, no. You can do the analysis, how am I? The question I ask is the correct answer. I don't think there is any problem in this. But there is something that keeps coming out. No, no. Social media bloggers also keep writing something. No, sir. Some people write something on their own media by putting it in their mouth. And then others pick it up and write it. So, what someone has said should be done in detail. And then you should give an opinion on it. I would like to know if you are a member of the party then you are also a member of the Prime Minister and you are also a member of the Prime Minister. No, definitely. When there is a discussion, the Prime Minister listens to what we say and keeps silent. I am also a member of the party. Even I had everybody talking to me at that time. So, we are a member of the party. Yes. And everyone has their own thoughts and views on it. The party keeps coming forward Now, I have a very headline story for you. A statement of Uddhav Thakre. I have a statement in Marathi. I will listen to it and I will take its reaction from you. Uddhav Thakre said something about you. Let's hear it once. Uddhav. Uddhav Thakre's statement. And the Prime Minister of Uttar Pradesh said that the discussion will be decided. Now, when I was fighting with Maharashtra the Prime Minister of Maharashtra came and did not even talk to him. So, in the first list it was not possible for me to listen to my name. Now, in the second list the name came. I work for the Indian People's Party. I will fight. I will fight with the Indian People's Party. There was no question of going to any other party. And this kind of offer because I am connected to my party. I am connected with the Prime Minister. I will be in the same party and I will work in the same party. But the last few days you said that the government of any party does not get respect for what they do. I did not say that. This is wrong. I said that this happens in the system which I have said about the people working in the government before that it was my suggestion that if they do a good job they do not get respect. And the bad work that they do is punished because the system is so complicated that good people do not immediately get awards. And whatever they do as soon as they get the inquiry they go away for so many years that they do not get punishment. This was his incident. This was not related to politics. This is not related to politics. These days social media is used on all the media. There is a lot going on in social media. This is not the case. The wrong press on social media immediately takes it and takes it forward. This is the problem. My next question in 2022 you said that politics is a big issue. I did not say that. This is wrong. I said we need to redefine the definition of politics. Only power politics is not politics. Because of the society and because of the development this is politics. And when Mahatma Gandhi did the campaign for independence that was also because of the politics. We did 80% of the social politics. You can watch the video on my channel. I have operated on 50,000 hearts. I saw your Twitter in the morning. You tweeted a video on it. A girl had a hole in her heart. You have treated her in your constituency. This is a big issue. But if we talk about politics then politics is in Delhi and if politics is in Delhi then it is a big issue. Is there an alliance? Look I got a call from politics in the morning. I came to work with him. His passport was done. So I came to thank him. His passport? No, his passport. What else I don't know if it will happen today. I don't know about it. But do you want to come to politics? It will be a party. What do you want? I don't want to be a person. I want to be the president of the party. The parliamentary board and the Prime Minister will do it for me. You are answering a lot of questions about seat-betware in Maharashtra. Is everything going well? Yes, everything is going well. There is a lot of debate. Are you happy? Yes, I am happy. There is one seat and I have 10 expectations. There is a lot of discussion. There is a lot of discussion. It is obvious. I think the elections will be finalized. We will fight together. We will win the Maharashtra. We are very close to India. We have made a new alliance in India for many years. But before that how do you see India alliance? Because there is a big challenge in Maharashtra. I see my party and my alliance. I have a philosophy which I often tell people that two races are yours and the other is yours. Two races are yours. One is yours or the other is yours. I believe in this and for 10 years our government has done something which people love. When I was coming on my Twitter I was so happy that so many people participated in it. In the 10 years we have worked in the government and we will be successful. We have to show our positivity and our work to people. We don't need to go into other negative things. One more question is to give 10% protection to the Maratha community. There is politics but there is also a social demand. How do you see that this is a big political challenge in Maharashtra for the Bharti Janta party and your alliance? Yes. Now this is not a topic. You are saying this is not a topic. But the election bond is a topic and a lot of questions are being answered. Rahul Ji has said that this is the biggest election vote of BJP. I think that there is still a discussion in the Supreme Court. When this matter is related to the Supreme Court then there is no tip on it. There will be a contempt of court. Don't do it. I don't do it. No, no. There is also an agreement that most of the BJP members have got some infrastructure companies. Now this is an agreement. I can tell you one thing. In the past 10 years we have awarded millions of rupees. Water resources in shipping in the road sector in the road in cable car, tunnel, express highway. We have not done this tender. And I request you in front of you that even one person will be like this. He will also tell you in the ears that we will have to give money for some work. So you tell me, I am ready to accept the punishment. We are fully transparent with the time bound and quality commitment. We have done the best and somehow we did the wrong work. There is a lot of discussion in the past. BJP is rich but the leader is poor. Congress leader is rich but the party is poor. What is your tip on this? I feel that the person in his life is so rich that this is a question related to him. But I often say that a person who is honest in his life has the strength of entrepreneurship, his company, his technology and such an entrepreneur will grow in the country. And I think by tomorrow, he will go abroad and invest. So we have to prepare such a meaningful thing that is going to make employment. And if we want to make employment then capital investment and if we work in a different area based on this then he is not just a wealth creator he is an employment creator. His caste, religion, and party, what would we take from this? But if you are talking about caste and religion then there are a lot of questions related to the CEO. Why did the CEO come first? His notification. It could have been brought later or it could have been brought three years earlier. There are a lot of things It is absolutely clear that the Hindu religion Pardha religion Sikh religion or Jain religion if they go abroad then if they are removed from there then there is no right to go there. There is no country. And that is why the CEO says that he can be legalized in India. So naturally a lot of things are clear in the CEO based on that. One question related to your mantra you have made a word record not one but seven word records. Is there any work that you could not do in the past 10 years and now when it comes to power then you should do it. What is the work? Right now there is a road construction and 36 green express. And 284 km we are building a tunnel of 2 lakh crores and from Kashmir to Kanyakumari we are building an express. It will be completed by December. Now we have started public transport and electricity. We are building a cable car and a railway. Now the Prime Minister thinks that when we complete 100 years what will be the vision. So public transport and electricity water transport like when I was shipping minister in Mumbai I was building a new airport in Mumbai. So I have made a report from BPD that you will go to airport in 17 minutes and you have made a new JTV like taxi, air taxi you have made a water taxi and you will take this water taxi from Vasee Virar from Nariman Point and you will reach airport in 17 minutes. You have a Venice city in Italy where you get down in the hotel and get into the water and get down directly on the airport. So this is the idea so public transport I had tried to get down on the water. So in the transport system there will be a lot of revolution. And especially on the basis of indigenous fuel public transport I was studying in Bangalore that in Bangalore the double-decker bus we were studying that project which went up because no road can be bigger. So naturally the cost of metro is 300 crores per kilometer and the technology I am talking about is 20 to 25 crores. So using this technology from Dhola Kua to Maneshwar we also studied the Pond system in between. So this new technology in the transport sector is the technology of the future and we also had some issues we are making 670 roads and amenities but if you ask me what do you want to do? I could do the best So in 2014 when I became a minister 1 crore people used to work as a person to pull a person. One was a cycle rickshaw and the other was a person to wash in Bihar, in Mangal, in North East. I brought the Mechanist D1 E-Rickshaw and today I am happy that 1 crore people who were suffering they got salvation and now E-Cart and E-Rickshaw are running and they got salvation from human suffering I made many express highway tunnel road bridges but this work is the best for me. It is near your heart but one round is near our heart and this is a photo round and you will get some pictures and you will get a reaction and I don't know which photo they have put Let's see the first photo This is Mamta Ji What do you want to say? Is there an accident? Yes Let's see the next photo What will happen to these two? I don't know the future I don't know any future You don't know the future? They say you are getting everything done The government is getting it done E-Di is doing her work and she is doing her work We often believe that our future is in the hands of God Your future is in the hands of God but what is the future of them? I don't know I am not the future What will happen to me? Let's see the next photo This is in Mumbai We came together in your house What is the future of them? Look, their future is not good No This will be completely destroyed in this election and we will get 400 places and many of them will be destroyed Yes The next photo is not of politicians It is a film because you are from Maharashtra and you are from Maya Nagri and you are from Mumbai Do you like it? Next please Do you like Singh or Vikrat Baisi? I like the hero of my generation The choice you have to make The three of them are good Pick one Who did you watch the last film? I watched Ranveer Which one? The animal Not the name The one on the front Okay Ranveer You have also given a political answer like this Let's see the next one Who is this heroine? Who did you watch the last film? Tapsee Pannu Alia Bhatt Keara Advani No, I have not watched these three films No The three top heroine of the country Let me tell you one thing The heroine of the generation is different Yes In our generation Abhidha Bachchan was our favorite hero Who did you follow in college? When you were in college Who would you follow? Abhidha Bachchan I once told him I watched Ranveer three times Anand three or four times You used to put bell bottom, pants, long collars I used to like the picture of fighting mindkl Okay, you are entering politics in the bunk this is the movement of fighter of the greatest fighter Good luck for him and news going to news with Vibhaki very, very thank you to answer every question please meet Zor Dar섯 Vis che cheer for Mr Nithing Thank you Thank you. Thank you, Amish. Thank you, Minister. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. We have an action-backed post-launch day. Our next session is someone who argues that democracy has been undermined by a quiet, devastating power grab conducted by a class of liberal experts. That's right. They have advanced a global rights-based agenda which has tilted the balance away from the lively and vibrant unpredictability of democratic decision-making towards the creeping technocratic authority of liberal consensus. Populism represents, he contends, an imperfect, but reinvigorating political blood that has the potential to sweep away decades of institutional detritus and rejuvenate democracy across the West. He has been a repeated victim of the cancelled culture. Most recently, he has learned that his Philistine column has been cancelled by Quadrant Magazine when he saw the March issue. Amish Devani, the Western investor, and member of the stock exchange, Shweta Janan, managing partner and head of Palette International in India, Harsha Raghavan, managing partner, good fortune and finance, talk about turbo-charge markets, micro-modes and macro-modes. Ladies and gentlemen, we have an action-backed post-launch day. Can we increase the font a bit? Yeah, Mohit. Mohit, see if you can increase the font slightly. Ladies and gentlemen, please take your seats. The show will begin shortly. You are requested to keep your mobile phones on silent mode. Our next session is with someone who argues that democracy has been undermined on the back of the post-launch day. Our next session is with someone who argues that democracy has been undermined by a quiet. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. We have an action-backed post-launch day. Our next session is with someone who argues that democracy has been undermined by a quiet but devastating power grab conducted by a class of liberal experts. They have advanced a global rights-based agenda which has tilted the balance away from the lively and vibrant unpredictability of democratic decision-making. Towards the creeping technocratic authority of liberal consensus. You can move a little faster. I'm on stage. I'm on stage. He's not there, so now we only call Bruce Passport. Welcome back, ladies and gentlemen. We have an action-backed post-launch day. Our next session is with someone who argues that democracy has been undermined by a quiet but devastating power grab conducted by a class of liberal experts. They have advanced a global rights-based agenda which has tilted the balance away from the lively and vibrant unpredictability of democratic decision-making towards the creeping technocratic authority of liberal consensus. Populism represents, he condends, an imperfect but reinvigorating political flood that has the potential to sweep away decades of institutional detritus and rejuvenate democracy across the West. He has been a repeated victim of what you call the cancel culture. Most recently, he only learned that his Philistine column had been cancelled by the Quadrant Magazine and he saw the March issue, ladies and gentlemen. Please welcome Salvatore Babous, sociologist and associate professor at University of Sydney for a session on half-trudisms, prejudices and misinformation. He will be in conversation with Rahul Shivshankar. No, no, I was gently, deliberately speaking a little low because we haven't started yet. It'll be fine when I start. I think we are good to go. Hi, sir. Everything is perfect. Yeah, thank you. Ladies and gentlemen, please settle down. The show is about to start. You are requested to keep your mobile phones on silent mode. Photographers are requested not to use flash. How did we do this? We went global. Forging partnerships with the biggest names in the media industry like CNN, CNBC and Forbes. Partnerships that are dominating their category are flagship English news channel CNN News 18. Blue past the limits of what's possible, reigning as the number one news channel for over 52 weeks. Our national brand, News 18 India, has more viewers than even popular entertainment channels and is India's number one Hindi news channel. When it comes to numbers and trends, we mean business. So that you stay on top of your business. That's why CNBC TV 18 doesn't just lead in the business news category, it is the category. Commanding 96% of the market share and our Hindi business channel, CNBC Arvaz has been the trusted partner for traders for 19 years running. Delivering swift market analysis that has made it the preferred choice for influential voices in the country. Our channel CNBC Bhajaan dominates the Gujarati business news landscape. We've expanded into the beating heart of Bharat. If you enjoyed your lunch and let me tell you, post-lunch sessions are always difficult. When you've eaten well and to keep the energies up is really difficult. I hope all of you are ready because this is going to be an action-packed afternoon. Let me just get a sense of how the audience is doing. Are you all there with me? If yes, then say a loud yes. Great to hear that. Let's get the session going. It's going to be an excellent afternoon. I can assure you. Our next session is with someone who argues that democracy has been undermined by a quiet but devastating power grab conducted by a glass of liberal experts. They have advanced a global rights-based agenda which has tilted the balance away from the lively and vibrant unpredictability of democratic decision-making towards the creeping technocratic authority of liberal consensus. Populism represents he contends an imperfect but reinvigorating political flood that has the potential to sweep away decades of institutional detritus and rejuvenate democracy across the West. He has been a repeated victim of the cancelled culture. Most recently, he only learned that his Philistine column had been cancelled by Quadrant Magazine when he saw the March issue. Please welcome, ladies and gentlemen, Salvatore Baboons, sociologist and associate professor at University of Sydney for a session on half-trusisms, prejudices and misinformation. He will be in conversation with Rahul Shiv Shankar. Good afternoon, everyone. Let's hope you can stay with us in this conversation. We'll try to keep it interesting and digestible. Not that you need much more. Welcome to the Rising Bharat Summit, Professor Baboons. You're here at the peak of the world, not just India as the world's biggest and most inclusive festival, a festival of democracy. The greatest edification of the power of the vote anywhere in the world. And many people have a perspective on India's democracy under Prime Minister Modi's watch. How would you describe India's democracy today? India has a democracy, a liberal democracy, a robust liberal democracy on the Western model. India's critics love to say that India is not a liberal democracy. Internally, many people in India resent when you say it's on the Western model. But the fact is, India's democratic institutions are modeled after institutions in North America, Western Europe, and Australasia, and India's institutions would not be out of place in any of those regions of the world. India is, in effect, the world's only relatively poor, post-colonial, highly traditional country that nonetheless has cracked the code about how to run a liberal democracy. Very interesting. I want to ask you if you think, and you're obviously someone who hails from the United States, which is often called the mother of democracy, though I disagree with you. I thought India was the mother of democracy. As I said, well, anyhow. But how do you assess India's democracy? Is it free? Is it fair? Is it inclusive? We've just had a massive debate break out over the CAA law. Many people think that it's prejudiced against a particular community, and therefore India's democracy is no longer inclusive, and it certainly not headed that way. How do you respond to that? The Citizenship Amendment Act is good policy, but bad politics. It's not possible in India, because India is an inclusive society and an inclusive democracy. If you look at the places, the countries that British India spawned, look at the Maldives and exclusively Muslim society. Look at Pakistan and exclusively Muslim society. Sri Lanka, an exclusively Buddhist society. Myanmar, an exclusively Buddhist society. Out of all the places governed by the British in South Asia, only India emerged as an inclusive society. And I think that's probably because India is a fundamentally Hindu society. No, I don't say it's a secular society. It's a secular state. But India's Hindu society was able to support a secular state in a way that those Muslim and Buddhist societies were not able. All of those countries started out as secular states. But all of them have become thoroughly exclusive and thoroughly religious in their state institutions. Now the Citizenship Amendment Act is there because people from all around the region, not only the three countries in the act, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Bangladesh, people from all around the region want to seek refuge in India because of India's traditions of liberty that are not present in their own countries. That says a lot about the character of India, but it also says a lot about the character of the neighbors. The only sad thing is that the CAA and I'm just going to be very frank here has been weaponized for political gain. It's clearly been reauthorized here during an election season. It's being used to gain votes and it's being used to divide people. It's a good law being used for bad purposes. Well, I mean that's obviously an interesting point to view that the people who are critical of the CAA were the greatest espouses of a law of that nature, but that's left for another day. It's a good law. There's not a problem with the law. There's a problem with seeking political advantage out of the plight of refugees. When is a good time to say refugees who are being persecuted by... Ten years ago. It's a good time. Okay. Let's move the needle a little forward. Gottenberg's based VDEM's 224 report labels on multiple metrics, India's quote, one of the worst autocratizers, unquote. In fact, it pegs India to a level last seen in 1975, can you believe it, when Indira Gandhi declared a state of emergency, how are VDEM and your assessments so widely different? Aren't they interviewing enough Hindus? Look, the varieties of democracy institutes a highly reputable European research institution based at Gottenberg University in Sweden. They have, however, set up a highly flawed statistical methodology for measuring democracy. They have five chief indicators. Two of them is a country, does a country have elections and is everybody allowed to vote are evaluated on a purely pro-forma basis, meaning that, for example, Vietnam gets a perfect score for its elections, despite the fact it only has one political party that's allowed. Now, VDEM has recently rated India number one 10 in the world, which I think is a travesty, but it's not VDEM doing the rating. Most of the differentiation in VDEM is based on their survey results. They survey mostly political scientists, mostly in the country being studied. So primarily Indian political scientists being a vax to evaluate India on a series of subjective indicators. The places where India now rates worse than during the emergency include the independence of electoral commission, include freedom of speech and association, and include academic freedom. Now, I just read an article in The New York Times I do a lot of historical research, I just read an article in The New York Times from 1975 which said that students at Delhi University were applauding the emergency because now school could return to normal. Which is to say those people who embraced the Indira Gandhi regime their today or their children today are now evaluating the emergency as having been a good time for academic freedom. Why? Because all those right-wing right-wing activists were arrested and at a time when thousands of students were arrested during the emergency, VDEM rates India better for academic freedom than it does today. There's another agency that says that press freedoms in India are at a level less than in Afghanistan. You should have said Pakistan. Is the methodology to blame or is it biased as some claim? Look, worse than Venezuela, worse than the Palestinian territories, 20th worst in the world, pretty much only China and Saudi Arabia and Iran get the worst position than India. Maybe the most egregious Hong Kong is placed 20 ranks above India for press freedom. Hong Kong where of course the Chinese Communist Party has outlawed all opposition press. Again we have to ask who's doing the raiding? The Reporters Sans Frontiers the organization that produces the press freedom index does not directly evaluate countries. They send a survey out to journalists. Rahul, were you surveyed in this survey? No, I just wanted to ask anyone. Was anyone here surveyed in that survey? Was any mainstream Indian journalist surveyed by Reporters Sans Frontiers? I doubt it. Now I don't know, of course they won't divulge who their survey takers are and for good reason they don't want them to face violence or face pressure. But we'd like to know, is Reporters Sans Frontiers surveying journalists at major metropolitan newspapers and television channels or are they surveying journalists at radical critical websites? I strongly suspect the latter. Of course we'll never know. But that's how we get India rated so low for press freedom. It's not because actual reporters like you are raiding press freedom low it's almost certainly because of the pool of people who form the Reporters Sans Frontiers pool of survey takers. So there's confirmation bias, that's what you're suggesting. Are these people just wanting to project that or why aren't they going further afield? No, look, they represent the interests of their members. Are you a member of Reporters Sans Frontiers? No. Well, if you joined, if all the other journalists in the room joined then asked to participate in the survey. But in fact Reporters Sans Frontiers has a constituency mostly among radical Marxist journalists and they're the people who answer the survey and I have to stress it's India's journalists who are raiding India low. It's not the French office, head office that's raiding India low. But can you actually blame these surveys when so many of our politicians go abroad and they sit in some very, very storied institutions and they denote India as an electoral autocracy also. There is a positive feedback loop here. They're saying India is an autocracy thus India gets reported to be an autocracy, thus people get the impression India is an autocracy, thus they can point to the New York Times or the Washington Post and say India is an electoral autocracy. Look, in America we have the same problem. Both Joe Biden and Donald Trump have criticized US elections as being meaningless, fraudulent. Joe Biden actually said no better than those of the totalitarian regimes of the 20th century. We don't take that seriously. Why not? Because all of you have been to Disney World. All of you read the US news. You're familiar with the main actors. When Donald Trump says something you don't take it that seriously. When Joe Biden says something you don't take it that seriously. But when an American hears a major Indian politician say that well democracy is gone in India. Well that Americans familiar with many developing countries where democracy has been destroyed, where opposition leaders have come to America to ask for help and we simply accept that the narrative is true because we know so little about India. In the past Professor Baminers you've said that India's intellectual class is anti-India. What do you mean by this? And I said anti-India as a class. Not as individuals. What I mean by that is nothing remarkable. Australia's intellectual class is anti-Australia as a class. There's constant talk in Australia about intellectuals being anti-Australian. America's intellectual class is constantly critical of the United States and its institutions. There's nothing surprising about that. I said that as an explanation because I wanted Indians to understand that all of the negative reporting about Indian democracy does not originate with Western experts who are independently coming to India to evaluate your country. It originates with Indian intellectuals who are writing for Western outlets. Indian intellectuals who are coming to speak at Western academic conferences. They're writing in Western academic journals and telling us that India is no longer a democracy. And we believe them because we don't know India. Well, many people say that some of these intellectuals or call them what you think have hypothesized themselves to foreign influence and the name of George Soros and beyond him some Western intellectuals and governments are bandied about. Is this hyperbole or are there malevolent forces that are promoting these individuals to say all these nasty things and color Bharat's rise? Look, there are malevolent forces but there are malevolent forces against every country. It's nothing unique to India. George Soros is a favorite bugbear of people around the world and I'll tell you Dr. Jaishankar loves nothing better than being criticized by George Soros because then he can get on television and defend India against these evil Western manipulators. The fact is George Soros doesn't tell academics what to think. Neither do the other influential billionaire funders. In fact, most of the funding of the research that churns out anti-India research papers comes from Indians themselves. That is Indian billionaires who fund research centers at Harvard and at Stanford who churn out research that India is no longer a democracy. Yes, the Soros's and the Templeton's have something to do with this but I'm sorry to keep repeating this message primarily it originates right here in India. Well, so let's explore that because there are people like Rajiv Malhotra who wrote a book, he's a commentator, etc. and he said, quote, agenda-driven political activism posing as academic research read washed by corporate money, unquote, is what's really driving this. There's a sort of a and that couple with sort of a woke takeover of our institution, especially the ones and some people have gone on like him to go to Shoka University and others internationally like Harvard and U-Pen, etc. You get a lot of stuff coming out from them. Look, he's not wrong. Malhotra is a very smart guy I recommend his book, Snakes in the Ganga but the fact is that if you're an Indian industrialist and you simply want to support the best social science research on India, what do you do? You go to the top professors in India. You go to the top Indian origin professors at Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Chicago and you ask them, who should we be supporting? Where should we put our money? You don't know, you're an industrialist, you're a business person. You're a prestigious intellectuals, the most prestigious Indian origin intellectuals in the world, but they're not responsible for what those intellectuals are writing. The intellectuals are writing either way. The signal boost comes from the Indian industrialists and others. Some of the money comes from the Gulf so part of the money comes from India itself. There's a strange bedfellows aspect to this. A big part of the money comes from Middle Eastern funders who fund organizations, typically South Asian studies departments that intentionally use the term South Asian studies instead of Indic studies in order to diminish the role of India in South Asian studies and some of the money comes literally from missionary foundations but ultimately overwhelmingly it goes to Indian and Indian origin scholars who are simply reflecting what they themselves believe. And is this driven by prejudice because I remember before the last election, 2018 an interview to me, in fact, the Prime Minister had used the word Khan Market Consensus. He says this is what they all belong to and they have an agenda against me personally and that gets sort of amplified. But it's no different than in other countries. Imagine in the United States how many social scientists support Donald Trump. You can probably count them on one hand. It's not a phenomenon. It's not a phenomenon that's unique to India. It is unique to India is the extreme politicization of this. I myself have only had one serious cancel attempt. I appreciate the plug for my recent cancellation at Quadrim, but the big attempt was the South Asian studies activist collective in the United States a group of relatively eminent South Asian studies scholars wrote to the University of Sydney asking that I be fired because my research and speaking endangered their lives and the lives of Indian intellectuals and thus I should be relieved of my position. Now luckily we have strong protections for academic freedom in Australia. Nothing came of it. But in a more politicized U.S. university it might have been a serious problem. Is this really what happened? That there was an attempt that was made to, I mean are these people do they call themselves liberals by any chance? I was accused of endangering the lives but this is the same kind of rhetoric we've become used to in what we some of us like to call the great awokening in Anglo American society a quasi religious awakening attachment to causes so it's the same sort of thing that happens if you do research on transsexuality. If you're a feminist who opposes transsexual access to women's bathrooms you'll be accused of attempted murder of transsexuals. Well that same rhetoric has now carried over into the India studies world. Well let me ask you and I'm quoting back to you just as western anti-Semites are offended by the success of Israel western anti-Hinduists are offended by the success of India. They don't fear it, they resent it unquote. Can you explain this? Yeah so that's something I wrote in an article about western anti-Hinduism and the rise of anti-Hinduism on a parallel with anti-Semitism. You may not be aware of this but against Israel for the last 25 or 30 years there's been a boycott divestment and sanctions campaign on campuses all around America and sometimes off campus. BDS has been a campaign to prevent any Israeli scholars from speaking at US universities or Australian universities. Well now BDS has been applied to India the Middle East forum in the US and Washington has been writing about this for about five years now about BDS being applied to India and it's the same people using the same strategies to try to marginalize India on the global stage. Anti-Hinduism is the new anti-Semitism. Wow that's that's a big insight. Okay well we're running out of time but my final question how do you see the Indian state evolving from here on? We're talking about Bharatiata Bharat and this is being prepared really by the Prime Minister's own pivoting of this country's cultural, constitutional and social narrative towards a Hindu civilizational past. There's a clear Bharat awakening in India ironically I don't think it has much to do with Mr. Modi or the BJP. This is a social movement in India. It's something that would happen even if Mr. Modi were not in power and will continue even if Mr. Modi loses the 2024 election. The Bharat awakening is India coming to terms with its own history and that's something that India has to do as an outsider I take no position on it. It's not my awakening it's your awakening. Is it accurately reflecting history? Well that's something for you to decide but it certainly reflects people's feelings about their history and it's something that has to be reckoned with. Thank you Professor Babines. It's been wonderful speaking to you and you've been very frank and forthright with your opinion and quite incisive. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much Salvatore and Rahul for that excellent discussions gave us a lot to think about. Let's move on ladies and gentlemen. In several ways the internet has democratized the world. If content is king then context is the queen and the internet is the empire. There cannot be a better illustration of this than the world of communication itself. Digital media is where all the action is and so we have digital media superstars in this room. Influencers are often perceived as role models and trendsetters particularly among the youth. They're seen as the embodiment of success and popularity. They are the new age storytellers telling powerful, compelling stories like any other form of storytelling. This is an evolved craft that has moved the access in the universe of communication. Ladies and gentlemen we have powerful storytellers Bruce Passports, Shantanu Hazarika, Janvi Singh all extremely popular influencers in their own spheres. We will be in conversation with Sonal Merotra Kapoor for a session titled New Content Grammariots. Ladies and gentlemen let's have them on stage. Hello everybody thank you so much for being here. We've had a heavy duty session but it's time to sort of spice things up a little bit. It's time to talk about things that we all see now all around us, things we love to scroll, we love to watch we love to forward but also this time understand the faces behind them this time also understand the stories behind them. Now the the trajectory or the spectrum of influencing in the country has moved many fold. Last year on the Rising Bharat platform when we had this conversation it was about how celebrities now wanted to be influencers. We're talking at a time right before elections where we want politicians where we see them sort of also understanding the language speaking the language of influencers big smile on their faces there we recently had awards where the Prime Minister himself awarded different categories and different people or what spectacular work this young India, young Bharat is actually doing some of them are sitting with us right here on the stage. I want to begin the conversation by giving all of you a little bit of an introduction for everybody over here and also understand their story and also give you a bit of perspective of what is this influence that they bring into the whole conversation. My first question is to Janvi. Janvi if you guys don't know already was awarded the fashion icon with a heritage touch from the Prime Minister himself. You must have seen that very famous yes please come on don't be shy. You must have seen that meme where Janvi went into the mode and try to touch Prime Minister's feet the Prime Minister reciprocated and touched her feet instead and she like this 20 year old that she doesn't look it all shy has lots to say about that. So Janvi by the way for all of you who don't know is just 20 and on her on her page the content that she speaks about is on saris different kind of saris where they come from and in that mode tell you a little bit about culture, tell you a little bit about heritage of India. Isn't that quite beautiful. So Janvi firstly welcome and tell us how did it all really start Saadi is this Saadi fluencer can I call you that like is that a phrase now yeah I think you can call me that and I would love to be right. So I think I mean fashion is subjective but I think for me fashion is to represent our culture and our heritage if I can represent my state or any other particular state in India and I think India is such a beautiful country such beautiful textiles, prints and somewhere or the other it is getting looped, it is getting finished, right. So there are many common prints that we know a lot of us know Banarasi and then Paitri and maybe Patura or textiles which people don't know there is Iqat, Ajraq like Kosa, Mekhla so these prints are not being lost in India and my love for Saadi is too much and I thought if I am so interested you know to know about the textile and the culture so there must be a lot of people so I thought let's start a series and even I will get to learn that there are so many different Saadi and how much time it takes it is so valuable because even if we go and see in history because I make content my content is around scriptures so even in Mahabharata even if we go and see Mahadrapati and Mahabharata this was also started so all this is so old so it started from there and then it came to Ramayana also where Mata Sita, Mata Kaushalya is also made on hand loom which used to wear silk saree so I want to revive culture back in India and to represent Saadi proudly so this is the new cool the new cool see you are getting applause straight away on that so you know when I met Janvi and I said when you meet a 20 year old influencer what is the image that comes to mind clearly not this but it's people like Janvi who are changing trends who are making India cool who are making content which is about India, rooted in India so much cooler I think that's why we are having this conversation right here on the Rising Bharat Summit as well so we talked about Saadi influence there is also travel influencing our next guest on the panel what is his name you must have seen it he writes bruised passports and when we were talking to him he is like this who you see on your social media and say he always travels when do we work so we really want to understand from the two of you when do we work we travel every time this is lifestyle and how do we get on vacation every time we like traveling so much that we have made our work so now we try to work or passion we follow but I truly think that the reason why we started doing this was because both of us have known each other for a very long time and we used to work in very different jobs but increasingly we felt we want to spend more time together and we had a shared passion of travel so we thought can't we do something that can combine everything we can travel spend more time with each other and work as well because it needs to be sustainable just for our audience tell us how many countries have the two of you visited together so far as they say just for age it's just a number but since we are talking about it it's 110 now and soon I think it will be 11 did you tell me that you are traveling 300 out of 365 days is that an average if we take an average for the last 10 years then that will be the average we actually traveled full time for about 5 odd years now we live in Delhi but we travel 300 days if 300 days you are out how are you living in Delhi what does that mean as my mom says when you are off again I have always wanted to understand this from travel influencers we all go on holidays to have a good time to detox to leave aside our phone and just chill you go is it hard is it work now that you have to make content make reels ensure that people are following it's reaching the right audience the branding is on point the partners have been done is it work or has the fun for both of us because we travel together it's a lot of fun as well yes you're right it's influencing or content creation is a full time job in fact because both of us had corporate jobs before this I would say it's much more demanding than our previous jobs because your mind is at work 24-7 but I wouldn't trade it for the world just on that note also tell us what were you doing and with it what were you doing before you took up traveling full time I'm a computer engineer by education so I was working in that field Savi is a PhD in English Literature I actually used to teach at Delhi University so I used to teach B&M students at Delhi University from computers to a camera I think they say if you're passionate about something then you can definitely make it your profession an engineer, a PhD student is now a full time influencer and that is the reality they're happy about it and they love it and it's a sustainable job that's where the influencing game has actually gone and I think that's what deserves a lot of compliment credit as well because I know it's not easy talking about where it has gone and talking about how influencers are emerging from engineering, doctors, PhDs I have someone else here with me Hi Shantanu Shantanu also is an engineer but does something which I don't I bet nobody sitting in this room would know about can I have a raise of hand of do you know what is art fluence dead because we just came up with the word just like right now Shantanu what is art fluence okay hi everyone I'm Shantanu Zarika and I am an artist by profession and there's no such thing as art fluence I mean art has always been influential throughout the ages we have read about the different movements in art during the Renaissance time during all different periods of time but what is art in its truest form it's a summary it's sort of a subjective understanding of any civilization and it is always propagated through different mediums before it was through sculptures portraits, paintings and now it's through social media so what I'm trying to do is merge the idea of art get it out there for a wider audience to understand and perceive art how we are to see them as basically so art fluencing to be honest is still a very subjective term we just coined it we're going to trademark this and what I'm trying to do is create a design and introduce a quality or set a bar when it comes to art and design through social media Shantanu is being humble right now and we're not taking brand names but the biggest brands in India and internationally now go to Shantanu and say design our campaigns design what our packaging should look like so you see what's happening there was a time when you had to study design you had to be an art expert now you can go to this engineer coming from the northeast who loves doing it, is passionate about it and that's what's going to get business and that's what's going to get a beautiful community as well but talking about the fact that you come from the northeast Jhandi I know comes from my state UP and well you guys are just all over the world you just belong to India you just belong to Bharat right I was going to leave it there but I think the next spectrum in the spectrum of influencing and it's come through a major journey for the past couple of years what's happened now is initially we had influencers who would tell you what kind of makeup to put what kind of clothes to wear there was this entire category who were wannabe celebrities now full time actors etc but look at this the next set of influencers from India are coming from small towns are coming from places and have stories to tell which have been long lost and are coming from places which take pride in what their true identity really is Jhandi tell me how did you tie that up and how did this girl from UP decide that today I am going to talk about sari so as you said now this is the new era of influencers we are coming from small towns are coming from different places so this is the new India right and what happens is creators are getting a stage a platform and plus the government of India is also recognizing this now so it's a healthier competition where good content will come good content creators will come who will take Bharat right but coming up to the saris now I think my partner is with saris and I think that I look the most beautiful wearing saris and not just that it helps me to take my culture my heritage forward so our Sanskrit hero who is forgetting today's youth is very ashamed how do we speak our language how do we show our wearing girls to wear a saree but not a single man can wear a dhoti and walk that's what the expectations the society has set now and that's not should be the case I mean this is new India this is a new India so this should be a pride to take our cultural heritage forward and I started my series with the help of saris so that if I am a 20 year old girl if I can wear saris I can do that I mean I can motivate that young people out there to take pride in their culture and honestly I am telling you there is no better culture than Bharat you must have noticed this and you might agree I was about to say this that one of the greatest things that social media has done is that till a few years ago there used to be the stereotype of India we saw it in so many movies but thanks to social media we people like us can portray different facets of the country because India is such a culturally rich country and all of us can show different facets whether it is a luxury travel India is not less than any country but nobody talks about it so many incredible India places in natural wonders India is so so good but we need to highlight it more and more one of the things that comes to mind is we were in Meghalaya a couple of years ago and we made a video on the river docky and it sort of went viral online and every single day we get messages from people sitting in UK or Spain who saw that video came to India, went to Meghalaya and then explored Meghalaya although earlier they would just do like Agra and Jaipur perhaps so the onus is on all of us to foreground the culture the rich heritage the places of India in the coming years that is very rightly said but Savi you are wearing a sari but after this panel we need to find out from Vidit whether he can wear a dhoti I think it is a very valid point I think we will have to learn after this discussion but would love to I can teach you I like how Shantanu in his very punk sort of Japanese monk avatar and his hair is saying I will teach you dhoti I really want to wait and see that but this is what I want to come to content creation and in India today finding your true identity doesn't have to be one person you can be as Desi as Janvi as cool Desi as she said as cool Desi as Janvi you can be as punk as Shantanu you can still find a community that will feel a sense of belonging with you and thus the onus which is what I want to bring everybody's attention to a lot has been said about influencers and the influence they have and what do they do with it a very infamous dialogue was said on a platform that influencers are beggars any brand can give them any amount and they will say whatever right so has that changed in the industry Shantanu why don't you pick that question has that is there a conscious thought now on what idea what brands what kind of thinking are you really going to put out through yourself and through your brand see the thing is what has happened over time is the influence of market is sort of saturated when you are talking about brands they understand the importance of marketing and branding in a very subtle way it has to be universal in nature it can't be like okay I am watching an ad it shouldn't be evident that I am watching an ad it beats the purpose of influencing anything so what happens in that scope is you have to build your own brand which is organic which is natural and to have that you need to have a core audience so there are few things which a community will always relate to joy pain and salvation so I come from a place where we have seen all three of those things and pride and of course pride like Jan we said pride in our own culture so if you sort of can capitalize on four different or maybe one of those things you can start relating to people more be it through art, be it through social media, be it through travel be it through any medium whatever you call it so the moment you start building that particular sense of collectiveness among a group of people be it a small group of people who listen to same kind of music maybe have been through same kind of experiences so you start building a niche and that niche will give you that originality and that's what the brands look for they want to be more niche in their approach and they want to also encompass that organic nature of influencing people so the days of putting an advert out or hiring an influencer just because they have million followers is gone now what they look for is the authenticity numbers don't matter anymore is how organic your reach is. Is that true? Numbers don't matter? No most of them are bots. I would say authenticity definitely matters more than numbers because it's like it's a story on your page you know as the panel says we're storytellers and the story of our lives is on our page so brands really really look for that they don't look for somebody who's doing one mobile phone ad one day and then another the next day for sure. But tell me this when do you since you are the brand you are the influencer when do you stop being the influencer when do you start being that person it's or is it or that Lakshman Rekha simply does not exist. I think the owners of that line is actually on the influencer because we know people who do this like first thing in the morning and even on Saturday Sundays but for us it was very clear right from the beginning that we weren't leaving one corporate rat race to get into another so you know we made it a point to kind of draw that line that two days in a week we are not like weekend not necessarily that Saturday and Sunday but sometimes because of work Sunday has to be dedicated to work so we take Monday off you know so I think it's really up to the content creator or the influencer to draw that line and there's no like clear definition of where it starts and where it stops but yes at the end of the day it does kind of permeate into you know a lot of the things that you do and a lot of times throughout the week. I think as Shantanu said if you're being authentic with your audience it feels so effortless sometimes you're working but it doesn't even feel like work because you're actually putting a very authentic part of yourselves out into the world so the boundaries are also very blurry sometimes. I have to be up for it because if I am going on holiday I don't want my phone around me I don't know how you guys do it but moving on we're coming to the closing of this session I want to quick quick sort of last comments on where is this going we also see a lot of like you said we have saturated the content across platforms more and more platforms more and more content more and more influencers so to say there are also a lot of one time hits and one time wonders so how where is this going and what next for influencing like I said Bollywood now acknowledges politicians acknowledge brands of course of acknowledge what next now in this influencer journey Shantu you and then I'll go around. I think the whole market dictates a socio-economical change through the eyes of an influencer through the eyes of social media basically that's the greatest influence we can have right so I think it's about reform it's about socio-economical change that can be brought about through the strong medium that's powerful change and reform through that's powerful yeah I think that's where we're headed like be it any political party be it any sort of form of rules or any ministry there's always a social media handle right so for example I've worked with the Ministry of Culture so they have ongoing social media campaign regarding stuff so people have recognized the importance of it and I think it's slowly seeping into the whole reform movement and it is an independent industry which is going to grow as we are growing as artists and influencers and we have to deal with it Janvi I think it is just the beginning what you're looking at right now and because different content creators are coming different content is coming which is taking the country forward for sure but I also think over the time it will be like if you are valuable with your audience so it will be a long game for sure value add is the key and value will create virality in the long run also so that consistency and authenticity as we discussing the previous question also I am the same person on social media and offline also so I am the same and if you are so authentic it is actually very effortless to put out content in the long run also so that I think building on that you can put up a facade for a day or two a month max but when you are putting out content as Janvi is saying that if you want to put it then the facade will not dry for long your authentic self will come out I just think that the idea of celebrity that all of us grew up with you know movie stars etc is dissipating now there are it's a very fluid concept so all of us decide what niche we want to cater to what our community is so overnight virality is also not a bad thing because that might help somebody like this tea seller that we were talking about before the panel it might democratize and bring so much empowerment to a community and I think that's what's important to remember that all of us are thriving in our little niches that we can for our little communities that's nice with it the lady said it all I would just say that I love the fact that it has become democratized now till a few years ago there was this perception that oh not everybody can become an influencer or this or that it wasn't even considered a profession now the beauty is that if you have the talent if you have the dedication if you have the skill anybody can do that and that's an amazing thing in a country like India where so much can be done to highlight different corners different facets, landscapes, culture, food so you know that I think is just the beginning and it's going to evolve and grow into an amazing industry and a platform and I think it's gonna be it depends on creator to creator someone wants to be a celebrity someone wants to get into a movie there is space for all and I think we should look forward to be a change maker for the country now to represent that content that can bring and evolve your country and take it forward I think what we can build consensus on this panel is about that the next step is going to be bringing about change the influence is gonna get into the change that you bring I loved what you said Janvi about value will define vitality and I loved what Shantanu also said about how impact is going to be a major focus as well looking forward to that time like I said whoever you are how much ever you can raise your eyebrows to influences you cannot ignore them anymore they are everywhere and they've got you looking at the stuff that they want how they want and that is just the times we all have to accept and make on that note thank you all so much for joining us and all of you over here thanks so much thank you so much Shantanu, Janvi Bruce Passports what inspirational stories ladies and gentlemen and what really caught my eye that all these influences Shantanu, Janvi, Bruce Passports all of them are people who challenged the norm they left their careers they left everything a normal person would do in terms of a job in the private sector or government they did what they liked best they followed their heart they followed their passion and found a medium online and ladies and gentlemen I bet all of these people can teach our politicians more than a thing or two when it comes to selling and influencing people they really know their products well and clearly what works in marketing what works for a product is what works for these influencers you have to add value you have to be authentic you have to be true to your viewers only then can you make it a full-time profession so a big round of applause to Shantanu, Janvi, Bruce Passports for telling us such powerful stories here today at Rising Bharat Ladies and gentlemen very shortly we are going to be starting our next session in an era of information explosion when trillions of terabytes of content move across handhelds in milliseconds it is the perspective that can sometimes get lost nuance and perspectives are the strongest pillars of any discussion and that's what we are going to focus on over the next half an hour we are going to be talking about one mother president india foundation doctor you've seen these people on television several times this session is titled the 12 factor and they will be in conversation with Rahul Shiv Shankar gentlemen please welcome on stage with a big round of applause Rahul it's over to you good afternoon everyone good afternoon once again let's get straight to the point the only 12 factor being talked about in Bharat presently is moditwa which is a derivative of Modi and Hindutva the ideological left in this country is extremely upset they say the prime minister has captured the hearts and minds of Indians by peddling Hindutva which is a divisive Hindu supremacist political ideology that's what they say how did a word that is itself derived from Hindu and Tua really essentially means essence come to be so resented by a section of the intellectual class in this country let's ask this of some of the finest authorities on the roots of our Hindu Dharmic civilization I have the honour of speaking to each one of them and we have the privilege of listening to their point of view Dr. Ram Madhav let me begin with you first there's a lot of misinformation about the word Hindutva to begin with it is attributed to Mr. Savarkar but it was coined as it turns out by a great son of Bengal Bangkim Chandra Chattopadhyaya in his treatise Anand Mat the same work that gave us Vande Matram Chattopadhyaya himself was a product of the renaissance the Bengal renaissance first tell us what the word Hindutva means in its unadulterated apolitical sense as defined by people like Chattopadhyaya no firstly let me make a humble correction it's no longer a lot of misunderstanding it's a little bit of misunderstanding continues large sections of our society, Indian society today understand the real meaning and essence of this word Hindutva there are professional critiques of it we earlier used to think that probably people are unable to understand that's why they are probably talking against it but over the years we now realise that it is professional to be anti Hindutva so you have to be a professionally anti Hindutva person so you have to invent certain arguments now Hindutva is different, Hinduism is different Hinduism is very liberal, logical, Hindutva is very fundamentalist etc etc Hindutva is Hinduism in practice in practice always updating itself making that very very ancient philosophy of our Hindu Dharma contemporarily relevant is what is Hindutva, nothing else all other interpretations negative interpretations about it are only professional critical analysis it's only a job to remain critical not because they don't understand it but being critical also has a market, that's all so Pawan Varma you've written on the Hindu civilization a brilliant book are you just a professional litigant against the word Hindutva or do you believe that perhaps it has come to acquire in the hands of some a more insidious edge and if you do believe so can you justify why Dr. Ramadha might be wrong here I have nothing against the word Hindutva to me Hindutva as you defined Tva if it is seen as the essence of Hinduism I have probably written half a dozen books on Hinduism I am a great admirer of the profundity of its philosophical wisdom and an admirer also of its continuous continuity if I may say for 5000 years and I do believe that somewhere along the line some of its great wisdoms have been lost need to be reclaimed parts of Hindu civilization which are a aspect of Hindutva need to be reappropriated brought into the mainstream and therefore in principle I am not against the word Hindutva however since I believe in the grandeur of Hinduism I object often not because I am a professional critic as Ramadha Ji saw I object to Hinduism's grandeur whether it is called Hindutva or anything else to the lowest common denominator by which I mean that for political purposes if the very spirit and essence of Hinduism's ultimate glory is simplified deliberately to the point where it becomes a set of equivalents what to eat what to wear how to dress how many times to go to the temple who to worship in what form and particularly for women for them to conform to the notion of some take-adards of Hinduism to the concept of chaste Hindu Nari Hinduism cannot be reduced to that because when you do it you distort it yes you need to be aggressive about aspects of Hinduism you need to be vigilant about possible threats to it but in doing so you cannot distort such a great legacy and I therefore feel that when you use Hindutva purely as a political tool it often ends up not as the Hinduism which we worship which we are proud to belong to but as a means of a dividing society spreading unavoidable hate creating fissures and also empowering an entire class of new he will not like this word so I will not use it we have had debates before a new class of people who cannot write one page on Hinduism but are today the protectors of Hinduism and have become a law unto themselves are you saying that they extend into the ruling establishment in fact that's a very interesting question and then Mr. Madhava I am sure will answer it you see the ruling party in my view and has played a role of deliberate ambiguity with organizations like the Bajrangda I am naming one they encourage them to achieve short term political goals in their aggression if they go too far they have the option to distance themselves from it we were just having a discussion about it and in this process over 10 years of political power at the center we have people today who in the name of Hindutva are distorting the very meaning grandeur and conquering eclecticism of Hinduism that I feel is wrong but otherwise I have no problem with Hindutva so you are saying there is a basis to adduce this sort of definition that Hindutva has been sort of twisted I don't know look if there is anything wrong happening in Hinduism there is always scope and place for questioning and criticism that is the very fundamental quality of hinduism that Mr. Pavanapurma knows very well questioning Gandhiji said continuous reform is the name of Sanatana Dharma Hindu Dharma is the name in which continuous reform should happen to that extent it is fine does hinduism not have asuras in it was Ravan not a great Hindu in that sense but he was still an asura he was to be opposed he was to be killed such things whether they happen in any form in any name in any organization they have to be opposed but to brand a particular group as you are Hindutva since you are Hindutva you are bad what is wrong that is what I am saying if there is something not correct happening in any particular group in so called non Hindutva group championing caste and dividing society in the name of caste asking people tell me how many judges are there from your caste tell me how many so and so are there in your caste it is all progressive in our country nobody questions that politics while in Hindutva when we are talking about this great country's ancient civilizational value system we have to uphold it we have to live with that swa self respect self identity it is actually branded as it is a very bad idea bad people can be there anywhere that is what I am saying when there was no Hindutva also there were bad people among among every religion every dharmic society don't brand a group just because then you call it a political form politics it is about this country if it is politics Mahatma Gandhi was the first person to use it for political reasons he called I am very proud Sanatani Hindu it is not politics it is about certain value system which we believe is the core value system of our country you want to quickly come in before I bring in Mr. Gautier apologies to François you know Ramadav Ji raised a very important point Hinduism has the ability the confidence the sanction to critique itself and correct itself my worry today is we are fast coming to a point where even a proud Hindu like myself if he or she questions any aspect of what the establishment so called of Hindutva believes we are anti-Hindu now this is a very strange thing because Hinduism if you know one god no one book no one church it is an eclectic faith which has not one but six systems of Hindu philosophy speak with concrete example I am just going to finish quickly and it has allowed for a great deal of contrarian contrary opinions and critique that is the strength Rahul I want to just quickly take 10 seconds you are sitting here and you are critiquing and there is so much space for that I don't know what the consequences will be but that apart the point I am making is that you have the Charwaks they said Vedas are a bunch of lies I challenge anyone to even attempt to say that today and not face the consequences so let me bring in Francois Gautier on this there was another person called Veer Savarkar even the castism that had got associated with the Hindu way even Gauraksha in fact I would like to come back to the original topic of this conference which is Hinduness so of course I am a foreigner Catholic born Catholic educated so I am going to read a few lines if you allow me what is it to be a true Hindu a Hindu is one who searches for the ultimate truth as a lover of this country as someone who tried to follow that Hinduness I think the first quality of a Hindu is that he or she strives for an inner quest using the tools that are available in this wonderful country that is called Bharat or India, Pranayama meditation, hatha yoga so a Hindu is one who searches for truth that is the first quality the second quality unlike other religions Hinduism refuses to sanction the monopoly of one god of one scripture and the only way to salvation now as a Catholic when I came to India I had the same prejudices that most westerners have and fortunately still have today all religions are the same God is many but what I saw in India when I started reporting as a young reporter is that the ordinary Hindu in the countryside I started in Kerala doing a feature on Kerala Payat which is a very ancient martial art which went to China and Japan and I found that these people were many of them not educated they had this knowledge in their genes God is many and I don't know there is not one way to God and then I also saw when I was covering Kashmir there was another religion who thought that if you don't belong to my religion I might kill you I might convert you the Christian might convert you and the Muslim might kill you so it opened my eyes to what true Hinduism then Hinduism is the eternal face Sanatadharma as my friend rightly said we will not speak too much Hindus believe that the soul takes birth in the physical body dies, gets reborn it's perfect divinity in Christianity not many people know that but till the 7th, 8th century Christians accepted reincarnation the belief in reincarnation is so important because if I am a Christian I live then I die according to my good good sins or bad sins I go to paradise or I go to purgatory or I go to hell now in this country India there is no knowledge that you are born again and this opened my eyes I came as a very young person this is also true Hinduism to believe that you are born again and again and there is something in you which is immortal that again is true Hinduism Hindu believes that one can cleanse oneself from karma through yoga practices I said that in the beginning hatha yoga has taken the world by storm in America out of 3 persons 2 practice hatha yoga we see Hollywood stars doing sirsasana surya namaskar this knowledge which is in this country and I think this is why Mr Modi came and he played such a crucial role in the rising of Bharati that India needs to become the spiritual leader of the world many of your sages have said that Swami Vivekananda I actually came to India to meet Sherabina's companion called the mother in Pondicherry and I had the privilege to meet her several times Sherabina was an immense yogi and also a revolutionary that India needs to become the leader of the world and I think Mr Modi is playing a very important role in that now one can be a Christian a Muslim or a Jew and still practice Hinduism I think this is one thing it's a spirituality and it's a universal spirituality because it's recognized that God he or she, not only he he or she can manifest at different times using different names, different scriptures so this is a wonderful knowledge and that knowledge used to be roaming all over the world in Egypt, in Greece so many countries had this knowledge but it was wiped out so today the responsibility that your country holds is that it still has this knowledge which is being attacked from many sides including as the earlier Mr Bhavan has said, by Hindus themselves so for me to come to this country, to live in this country is a great privilege because I learned things that I couldn't learn in my country though definitely France has many qualities and there are things that India can learn So what you're saying Francois Gauthier is that, and I think in one sense you're saying what Savarkar once said Hindus need to fear actually Hindus the most that's what he had said Can I say one phrase about that I agree with Mr. Professor but also there's Western Indologists there's a hatred of Hindus among Western Indologists, in my country there's a man called Christophe Jafferleau he's made his lifelong task of demonizing Hindus, the BGP the RSS, Mr. Modi that's the professional let me just ask you this because I think we're pivoting towards an interesting territory now, you claim that a particular type of political Hindutva philosophy is dividing people and this that the other and it takes sometimes legal expression like the CAA etc. this is interesting because it's in stark contrast to the political experience of the BJP that is constantly adding new and new sociological verticals it's the only party that's actually growing how can their worldview be so exclusive yet it is attracting more and more people so obviously what is said about it and I'm not sounding like an apologist I'm just saying just look at the numbers how can you say that they are championing something so Rahul I don't think we should compare apples and oranges today's subject is the Tua factor in Hindutva why a political party is on the upswing and has one, two decisive majorities in parliament has a very complex subject first of all it's the personality of Mr. Modi second it is a narrative third it is many of its achievements like welfareism fourth it's an organization encoder which permeates down to the grassroots and fifth there is also the Hindutva factor and hyper nationalism or what I often call proving yourself to be patriotic otherwise you are not maybe there are factors like this we are talking of Hinduism I agree with what Francois said that for anyone from an Abrahamic faith I am specifically addressing the point that you raised because I was hearing Mr. Chidambaram speak a few days ago where a question was put to him why is it that the BJP is growing why is it that Modi is becoming more and more popular and he said well there are a variety of reasons just like you were but the main reason is that this man has fed the poison of Hindutva he didn't discriminate between what Hindutva was in his mind he said it was the poison of Hindutva which even the supreme court identifies with Hinduism let me tell you the JS Varma judgment if you go back to it so he said it is Hindutva now if Hindutva was so divisive so poisonous why are the unsuspecting voters drinking it no so to answer your question I have been the spokesman of the ministry of external affairs of a political party the JDU but I am not Mr. Chidambaram spokesman so I just want to clarify that he can say what he believes to my mind Mr. Modi is a popular leader and it is also a factor of the opposition being spectacularly ineffective without a face or a narrative so these are factors that are different they are in the secular realm as well where Hindutva is concerned for anyone from an Abrahamic faith the freedoms and the openness of Hinduism is a matter can be a matter of great attraction and also be a matter of great miscomprehension now when there is a religion which Fraswa talked about where the greatest revival of Hinduism Adi Shankaracharya he says all that matters is Chidananda Rupa and by the way he said I am Shiva, I am Shiva another thinker in the Middle East a Sufi thinker he said Anul Haq I am the truth he was beheaded in Hinduism and he is not we need to preserve this where is any dispute about it who is not preserving it in India is Hindutva not preserving it you talked about Adi Shankara Adi Shankara is one of the finest memorials is coming up in Madhya Pradesh funded by the BJP government isn't it a great tribute to Adi Shankara and all that philosophy of Advaita of Adi Shankara and this is that Hindutva freed millions and millions of Indian women from the smoke puffing chulas provided them gas cylinders without asking them about their religion sir did we ask them whether you are a Hindu or not did we not give it to all religions are we is it not the same Hindutva which is freeing millions and millions of Muslim women from Triple Talak the curse of Triple Talak is it not a great service that this so called Hindutva leadership doing to the Muslim women of this country fortunately in our country that's why I said all those sections of people understand that what is projected as a big demon and then suddenly today we I mean we pretend to be victims this victimhood argument what will happen to me sir you have been exposing your cause for many years nothing happened to you people are listening to you you are respected why this victimhood syndrome did ever occur to you that years after years decades after decades you kept calling as communal you kept calling as fascist did we then cry from rooftop that what will happen to me if I say I am a nationalist these are tables are turning people will call you things that you have been doing in all these years before today somebody else will stand up and say no you are anti-Hindu if you say this take it in your stride full freedom in this country for criticism because of that spirit we never reject in Hinduism in Hindutva not Hinduism there is always space scope for Mr. Pavan Varma Mr. Krishapur Jefferellet also one may be a very professional critic one is a logical critic everybody has a place but I am repeating as far as this so called Hindutva politics is concerned it is totally non-discriminatory in the true spirit of Hinduism or Hindutva it is for the welfare and well-being of everybody 1.4 billion Indians that is what you witness in this country that is the reason why people today support Prime Minister and his government very quickly very quickly the only person we have heard just the other day and nothing fortunately and that just speaks for the Hindu way has happened to him as yet person who gets up and says in Hinduism there is this thing called Shakti and we are fighting this Shakti now imagine someone saying that about any other faith and about a negative aspect of that faith what would have happened to that individual by now 48 hours and counting I think a lot has happened to him by now that is nothing will happen to him nothing will happen there even I tell you at least in terms of ridicule because without understanding what in Hinduism is the role of Shakti to use Shakti in the context of Hinduism in the manner in which he did obviously well that is what I am saying is that a professional critic these are not the substantive critiques that we need as Hindus to be open about and what I am saying is let's talk of Virasavark we have run out of time actually I am really sorry but I must say nothing will happen to Rahul Gandhi sir don't worry because we always believed that BJP has strong leadership which will get us lot of forts Modi Ji Amit Shant Rahul Gandhi well I did tell you we have 30 seconds I mean I don't believe there is a divide between being Hindu and Hindu in fact I believe that Hindu power is a must in India and that sometimes I feel Mr Modi is very moderate of course as Ram said he is the prime minister of all Indians but understanding that Hindu accept the totality of the world you know I wish that Hindu power would come more to the fore well 10 seconds I can understand his point of view but Hinduism's foundational basis is respect for all faiths and I think that cannot be diluted I think most people here will say is perhaps happening given the fact that a large number of people are not differentiated on the basis of their faith by government policies I think that's the real test the government comes in and it respects everyone exactly respects and enables everyone when they form policies I can tell you a previous government non BJP governments who had policies that actually differentiated between people I still haven't found one who can accuse this government and I'm just being absolutely factual here any one of you thinks that there is one government policy that differentiates between people one government policy Indian citizens raise your hands we leave it at that the proof of the pudding is in its eating very much Rahul that indeed was a thought provoking discussion and one thing is very clear ladies and gentlemen when you speak about Hinduism this is exactly what we saw on stage you have place to debate to critique and make better yes Hinduism can absorb different views and become better over time and fortunately unfortunately we're going to see a very sharp debate over Hinduism in the coming general election yes this is going to be a hot long and sweaty election and there will be some high pitched politics over Hinduism and this is exactly what the Prime Minister has been trying to avoid take away politics take away the debate from religion and caste and focus it on the economy yes he has been saying that we need to focus on the poor the women the youth and the farmers and these are the forecasts in the country we need to focus on and as we talk about the economy ladies and gentlemen let's indulge in some investment talk shall be private equity venture funding and the investment universe are having their moments albeit with a bit of rough and tumble lately this involves moving funds across asset classes and various geographies what are the changes taking place in the investment landscape and the evolving technologies in the world of finance private capital and money Ashish Agarwal, managing director and country head and Jeffries Ramesh Ramani, veteran investor and member of Bombay Stock Exchange Shweta Jalan, managing partner and head of Advent International in India Arsha Raghavan, managing partner Convergent Finance, LLP to talk about turbo charge markets micro moves macro moves in conversation CNBC TV 18s managing editor Shereen Bahar let's welcome them on stage ladies and gentlemen this is going to be a fascinating discussion there will be a debate on the economy as we get off the national election and who better to discuss this Shereen over to you good afternoon ladies and gentlemen what an absolute pleasure it is to be back here at Rising Bharat thank you so much for being an incredible audience here and we look forward to engaging with you on an issue that is occupying a lot of mind space and clearly generating a lot of headlines I have a fabulous panel here with me this afternoon to talk about the trajectory that we are likely to see it has been a record breaking year for the Indian capital markets to start with we've seen the democratization of the Indian capital markets the number of DMAT accounts in just the past one year up 34% we've seen India emerge as one of the best performing markets in the world we've seen record numbers in terms of mutual funds, asset under management and are participating in the Indian capital markets like never before but to tell us what the road ahead looks like what we can expect for India for the Indian economy and for the Indian markets without further ado I'm going to start the first round with 90 seconds each to my panelist here to give us their take on what they believe is the bull case for India Ramesh the Mani veteran investor you of course have been bullish on the Indian markets for very very long and Ramesh I just want to for the benefit of our audience here who are watching us online as well as here at the Taj palace in Delhi remind you of that event in 2014 where your good friend the late Rakesh Jhunjhunwala said if you're under invested in India you're going to miss out on the mother of all bull markets Ramesh the Mani 90 seconds your time starts now on the bull case for India Thank you Shareen it's very interesting that I'm coming back from the land of the rising sun so I'm coming back to the rising Bharat right now and the very instructive story to understand about what's happened in Japan in 1964 when India last won the Olympic gold medal cleanly without any fair competition was in Tokyo the Nikkei was at 1000 over the next 25 years it climbed from 1000 to 40,000 in Yen terms even dollar terms actually went to 100,000 so it had other mother of all bull runs in Japan and I think Rakesh and me we kind of stock market creatures we believe that India is on a similar bull run like Japan went from a third world country to the second largest economy in the world companies that were unknown in Japan 64 Sony, Hitachi, Honda became household names I think and maybe I hope I'm right that India is on a similar trajectory and what is powering this bull market in India every bull market has a thesis what powers bull market is the growth of the great Indian middle class I think finally we are having a great Indian middle class people have a bit of extra money to save extra money to invest so you are seeing that coming through the DMAT accounts coming seeing through the domestic money inflows so I think this is a long term story I don't think as my friend Rakesh would say always be bullish on this country and the volatility that we are seeing right now is more like a winter squall it will pass by but people still will end up making a lot of money well speaking of making a lot of money and since we are talking about Rakesh and his predictions as well Ramesh you were in that room when he said that the nifty at 1 lakh by 2030 in fact on an occasion he had said 1 lakh 25 but then he scaled it back so 1 lakh by 2030 that seems a bit of a stretch but the sensex will get there the sensex will get there Ashish let me come to you now the bull case for India 90 seconds has come out of the big report India's march on to the global stage we are talking about I think the economy itself touching about 5 trillion dollars by 2027 the market cap reaching about 10 trillion dollars by 2030 I don't think any other country can talk about so many things coming together whether it's an under leveraged economy Capex cycle both government and private sector whether it's the demographic dividend that we are talking about Ramesh you just talked about I think it's a lot more parallel to also what the US went through in the 80s in terms of working population savings habit as you have more macro stability lower inflation the average saver tends to invest more in equities and I think that's the biggest delta one statistic that I think cannot be underappreciated at all is even after all these years of DMAT accounts going up equity savings being there the equity household savings is still about 5% of total savings gold is 16 so we have a long long way to go and we are not even counting when as and when the FIs come back so I think can't get more bullish than this when do you see the return of the FIs I think it started a bit last year with a couple of large guys putting in sizable bets I think a lot more will follow if I'm not wrong I think so far the India investments have been driven by EM funds taking disproportionate bets on India I think the next 5 years will be about global funds stepping up big ticket investments into Indian equity well I'll get you to elaborate more on that in just a second but Shweta let me talk to you about what we are seeing as far as the private equity mood is concerned specifically you're looking to utilise another 5 to 10 billion dollars of your capital in India over the next few years your bull case for India so I believe India is not a story of one year or two years I think it's a multi decade growth story from here on I think we have it'll be a pity if we don't capitalise on it because we literally have all flags are green at this point in time so if you look at something that both Ramesh and Ashish spoke about our demographic profile we have the largest probably working population of 900 million across any geography across the globe and that just lends itself to a large consumption story for India so that is I would say one big positive government capex cycle I think is going to be a propelled economy a lot in terms of growth and lastly the one thing that we didn't talk about so far was just the whole policy framework in India and that has been so supportive starting with reducing corporate tax rate a few years back or the bankruptcy law GST all of these is just providing the inherent infrastructure underlying infrastructure for corporate India to really outperform the growth we are seeing anywhere else in the world so for us and private equity as you can see everybody is really bullish on India like advent and like my global folks said about 5 to 10 million dollars a month back I think last year the private equity investment in India was 40 billion dollars it did peak in 21 at 70 billion and I do see that peak coming back sooner than later just given the whole buoyancy around India that we are seeing anywhere I go in the globe and meet our investors meet our general partners everybody is just talking about India rising what's the number one question that they ask you how much can you invest in India how much can we invest in India where do we put that money to work absolutely absolutely I'll get you to respond to where you tell them that money should go to to work but Harsha first of all congratulations Harsha as an investor in India's newest airline they took their first flight yesterday so ladies and gentlemen a big round of applause and Ramesh Zamanee also an investor he's the captain but Harsha you know what they say and I'm not going to go down that cliche of how do you get a billionaire to lose his billions but that's really been the story as far as Indian aviation is concerned you're being brave hearted aren't you thank you Shereen I wish I got a penny for every time I heard that comment which is why I didn't make it which is why I didn't make it yeah but on that specific point I will say that it's clear that India's problems needs Indian solutions and we believe with the airline that that's what we're addressing and in many other investments that me and my contemporaries are making I think we're solving India's problems with Indian solutions to answer your question about the bull case I would I was reflecting on this a little while ago and in the old days the gap between our bull case and our bear case used to be a wide range in India today we seem to be in a somewhat privileged position where the gap has narrowed significantly and I'd say with some level of reliability and certainty we know where we as a nation are going I think Jeffries and many of the other analysts have published a lot of research on this topic you know we should be the third largest economy by 2027 our stock market has done well looks like it will continue to do well and so I'd say the bull case is not altogether that different from the realistic case or even the bear case in that India is looking to be good now on a slightly related point what do all of us want as citizens and residents we want safety for ourselves and our families we want political stability and we want that political stability to be accompanied by direction from the government in terms of where we as citizens can get to and businesses can get to economic prosperity in the old days those three things used to be available elsewhere we used to look around the world and say that's in a first world country not our country today the India that we're living in today has those three things and as we look around the world we kind of look back home and say like all of us in this room things are better over here so I'd say that's the realistic case that is the realistic case and that's the big change that is driving the investment psyche but Ramesh to the changes that Shweta also brought up and all of you have alluded to the structural changes that have happened one of the calls that you made a few years ago in fact was as far as the PSU stocks were concerned and what a rally we've seen as far as the PSU stocks in fact I don't think we would have ever imagined that we would have seen the prime minister address the rally that we've seen in PSU stocks in parliament Ramesh Thamani from here on you know given where valuations are given the structural reform story given economic stability policy stability so on and so forth is that a bet that you continue to make? I feel like I'm on the bazaar show in the morning at 9 o'clock that's what they typically would ask me but to answer your question every bull market has leadership so the 2000 bull market for example was led by the technology stocks in India which saw the huge technology revolution taking place in India but this bull market is partially being led by the PSU stocks and they're saying that the level of corporate governance has improved in these stocks that we no longer have the leakage we no longer have the phone banking that India was so famous for in the prior bull market so this sector this PSU sector will continue to lead this bull market higher now people sometimes say there's a bubble going on there's a fraud going on and they will correct as all good bull markets have corrections in a period of time but I think the eventuality these prices will be significantly higher than they're even today and the reason for it is two four one of course the PSUs are the leading edge of the CAPEXPEN the government is using infrastructure spend defense spend, railways spend as the leading edge for CAPEX and plus the corporate governance has improved and you're swinging the pendulum from ridiculously cheap to now probably overvalued at some point in time but right now they're good buys you know you talked about bubbles ramation and you know there is a debate at this point in time whether in some parts of the market some pockets of the market we are now entering bubble territory what's your take especially as far as the small and mid-cap space is concerned you know there are always froths in the market and that corrects itself market is correcting for example there's some froth in the best private sector bank in India it hasn't performed for three years so the froth gets taken care of the market I don't believe we're in bubble territory from Jimmy Diamond to Jim Rogers have been calling for a bubble in American markets for the last five years and the market keeps surprising them Nvidia becomes a powerful company I don't believe that's a there is froth market taking care of that and you know it's what the wise words were said to us when you first enter the market Cabot empty or buyer beware we need if you're going to put our money we're going to put a wallet on the stocks we should be careful about what we are buying that is our job that's addressed what we are seeing emerge as the big trend a lot of the MNCs are actually high being stake or paring stake as far as the Indian subsidiaries are concerned to make use of this valuation arbitrage at this point in time you know we've seen it happen with whirlpool we've seen it happen more recently with BAT you know as far as it's a stake sale in ITC is concerned we're seeing Tata Sons do it in TCS that announcement coming in just yesterday do you see this trend continuing and more importantly from a government even if government companies were to divest to just be able to get to public float the fundraising opportunities that it presents well I think definitely India would need a lot of growth capital what we have seen so far last year bulk of the fund raise was sell downs whether by MNCs by promoters and by private equity I think if you look at the fresh issuance coming out of India it's still way below what the global benchmarks are so we are still talking about one percent of market cap every year that number peaked in China at about four to five percent so there is still a long long way to go I think India can take a lot more issuance and which in my view is the best thing that can happen because the most common push back that global investors have historically had on India is the liquidity itself I think one of the reasons we saw a few large investors coming in hoards was also because of the liquidity events that the country is now able to produce so in a way fresh issuance crossing 100 billion will bring in own set of investors I think some of the MNC selling down some of the promoters selling down is use of capital for other growth businesses then India has also come of age where a lot of corporations are now talking about spending in R&D whether it is green hydrogen or energy in general I think that's one of the longest standing complaints again India that Indian companies have not invested in R&D so maybe there is no capital which will go there and I don't think sell down is ever a benchmark of it's an expensive stock because for the largest Ramesh spoke about private sector banks they were always owned by foreigners and sold down by the Indian government but they gave fabulous returns so I don't think that's the best queue whether they are expensive or not Harsha I want to pick up on the consumption theme that Ramesh Ashish and Shweta spoke about as well and yes we are seeing the consumption in a big shape and propel growth but in some pockets of the economy I don't know if you looked at the latest numbers that Indus Valley the consumption reported put together but it's essentially the 30 million households that are really doing the buying so to speak and the aspirational India is the middle chunk which hopefully will start to move from the 2,500 per capita to 5000 per capita and then continue to drive consumption what's the big consumption bet that you are playing on at this point where do you believe we are going to see value being unlocked Shereen the consumption I'd say is one of the domestic consumption is one of the strengths of our nation today we used to live in a paradigm where India had four metros somewhere along the way we said maybe it's five now today I'd argue that all the top 20 or 30 cities in India are all absolute metros they all have metro systems they all have international airports they all have good infrastructure that's improved dramatically and therefore the residents of those cities have seen economic prosperity rising affluence levels which results in consumption and so we have as you pointed out at least 30 million households which would be about 120 million people some may argue it's even more than that we have people who are qualified to be working and contributing in any place in the world and indeed they are for example 20% of JP Morgan's workforce is in India and not all of them are just one city or one metro so with that we have consumption that is absolutely world class because Indians now know what the world has to offer don't even have to go very far to get it they can get FMCG items they can get automobiles they can get luxury products even basic products anywhere in the country so I'd say that consumption has gone deep consumption is going to deepen from here on but Shweta let's talk about consumption but also link it to the broader formalization as far as the economy is concerned as well as the empowerment of the bottom of the pyramid you've just done a big deal not big from an advent's a war chest point of view but big for the entrepreneur that you've decided to back Ananya Birla's microfinance venture explain to me what you're seeing happen what your thesis is on that moving towards the aspirational class and the value it will potentially unlock I mean that is really the bottom of the pyramid I mean it is not the middle class it is not the increasing household income class this is really the rural economy which it supports at some level it is the joint library groups women in villages getting together and raising some finance to be able to do small businesses and I think that grass root level financing erstwhile was done by money lenders at some you know insane rates and that's what is getting substituted by these microfinance companies and we just know how big rural India is and how they are largely reliant on agriculture today and that is what we are trying to change can they have other sources of income can they find other sources of livelihood in the rural part of India and can they get good financing to build those businesses and that's what Ananya Birla's companies for Tantra does and that's what we have you know that is the hypothesis that we have back that it's a huge white space I mean it's we barely even touch the tip of the iceberg at this point in time there's so much to go and so much depth in that market and we want to build off that you know speaking of white spaces Ramish and I want to come to you with that which is the white spaces that excite you where you believe we will start to see private capital moving in and in terms now we are you know on the cusp of the general elections in terms of the big ticket items on the unfinished reform agenda what would you like the next government to prioritize well I think the prime minister said that better than I could ever say that a few days ago when he said infrastructure, railway, defense, exports all that's going to happen I think in the next generation of reforms the IBC has tried to say it's all been done so now we want to promote consumption investment semiconductors I'm not sure about that but semiconductors also but if you ask me for a white space Shireen Harsha was talking about we've already witnessed a tech revolution in India I think we're not understanding but a BPO revolution is coming to India the kind of which will just surprise us because real estate costs are so cheap in India you're communicating at zero cost now with the rest of the world so a lot of the back office work in America you have 3% unemployment rate 3% unemployment rate you can't find people at $20 an hour out there you can shift all that work in India because communication and land costs are very cheap so I think India will become we already a tech superpower will become a back office superpower but aren't we already the back office superpower you know we've done nothing we're just going to start we're just barely getting started I think we've focused more on tech not on high tech but on tech basic tech services economy but I think the superpower in terms of back office will just explode it's exploding before our eyes because the first time now land cost is zero even in an AI world I think a lot of this mortgage processing all this basic stuff will still require some human intervention so in AI world yes that is a black box that I'm not familiar with yet but I think given the other things that are taking place in India low land cost, good communication ability satellite communication available and that will be a big boom industry white spaces the big themes Ashish that you believe are going to drive growth in the coming decade I think real estate would be my number one choice for the last decade or decade and a half real estate or housing in general has been a beneficiary of the economic activity I think the sides will turn housing will be the driver of economic activity over the next decade so the entire value chain from a developer to building materials to financiers I think that's going to be one of the largest contributors to the GDP the other theme on the same lines we like is hard assets so infrastructure hotels, airports, ports hospitals I think in an inflationary world where cost of capital is going to play a major role consolidation is going to be the theme and that's why as a house we've been big believers in owning hard assets and you think private equity is going to play consolidator Shweta are you going to do the consolidating? Already doing a lot of it right I mean we have a whole Pharma platform where we've integrated a CDMO and API business but on white spaces I would say all businesses that play on the China Plus one theme right manufacturing I mean that is something that's been under invested on for you know a decade plus I think that's going to be a big white space in my opinion I was expecting you to half expecting but you didn't bring that up you don't believe that that's going to be the big opportunity as well I'm not particularly a fan of PLI investment I don't think the government should be directing capital to areas where Japan tried that and it fell flat on their faces so I'm not particularly I've born into the services consumption part of the Indian economy so maybe Harsha has some view on this Harsha are you somewhere in between? Yes I am in between I'd say that I'd argue that we're the only country in the world that has gone through a simultaneous industrial revolution and digital revolution that has allowed us to leapfrog and we're seeing this with our infrastructure physical infrastructure digital infrastructure all manufacturing and all logistics has become seamless in India maybe in the last 10 years only now what that means is that it's all white space there's huge opportunity we're not growing and moving incrementally we're moving absolute leapfrogging and therefore I do believe that some of the initiatives the government has taken GST was huge and has absolutely transformed this nation Odanski in regional aviation was introduced 8 years ago and somehow despite government intervention to help private airlines go into the hinterland private airlines were a little slow to do it PLI in the same way I'd argue adoption has been slow but when adoption takes off we're going to see India become a lithium ion battery manufacturing hub for the world and maybe aircraft aerospace in the future we're already sending spaceship to the moon we should be doing a lot more of that other initiatives that the government hasn't placed such as gift city I think can absolutely transform not just our financial markets but perhaps global financial markets you know the role of global factors as well and Ramesh will be address that issue with you. I think what we hear from each one of you on this panel is that the domestic risks are limited at this point and in fact none of you brought up a single risk domestic risk at this point so the risks are external the expectation of a fed cut coming in in June at least at this point in time look less likely what would be the external factors the risk factors Ramesh that you would watch out for that could potentially impact us I mean the world is a dangerous place we are fighting two wars as we speak while bull markets don't stop because of wars that might surprise a lot of people I think bull markets fall of their own weight I mean Japan continue to grow but at some point it just peaked out and didn't come back for 40 years or so so excess weight leverage you know there's nothing that the government China has markets that are in 10-12 years low the Chinese economy has done reasonably well over a period of time so markets when the bad news of course Shireen is that all bull markets end even this bull market will and I guarantee you that there has never been a bull market in the history of the world that continues on ad infinitum so this will end too which is fine we'll hopefully be able to tell you on Bazaar when it's ending but for right now it seems like a green signal ahead and bull markets will end up its own orgy its own speculative excesses I don't see anywhere near that at this point I feel the markets are decently good shape Ashish, to address the issue about global funds investing more in India we've again seen some triggers with the JP Morgan bond index inclusion possibly another index inclusion as well where typically do you see the flows coming in will US drive a large part of the fund flows into India I think it will be global I think a lot of pension funds would start looking at India as a place where they can deploy a lot of equity in good companies with the best macro that one can hope for and I think the amount of investment that the government has done over the last few years to improve foreign policy relations with a number of countries I think we will see a lot more new markets investing in India US of course likely to be at the forefront they have the largest AUM most global asset managers are headquartered out of there so that will continue to be the single largest well I think last year's flow of $20 billion was honestly not even remotely close to what it can be so we've been talking a lot about the domestic flows and they have become very sizable in India and I think they will continue to grow but at the same time I won't be surprised if the FII in flow into the country can go up 5-10x from where currently it is over the next few years and I can tell you I think most EM funds are overweight India most global funds don't many of them don't even own a single stock so the kind of liquidity events we are seeing now is the perfect backdrop for them to come back into India in size okay a significant increase in fund flow by US based funds is what you're expecting global funds to but wait a minute let's address the issue that we were talking about equity playing consolidated data and we've seen a lot of buyout deals take place we've seen a lot of private equity players take the risk management control healthcare is a classic example of what we've seen happen with private equity coming in and taking control which are the other spaces that look exciting at this point from a private equity perspective I hate to pick a sector typically because it's you know today something is a flavour or today financial services flavour of the season tomorrow healthcare is day after industries is right so I think the approach that private equity buying large adopts including ourselves I would say by and large all themes in India right whether it is consumption, healthcare, financial services all kind of playing the underlying fundamental growth of India right then it is really about the company where there is you know where we look at the micro aspects of a company as opposed to just a top-top down piece but I feel all sectors are interesting today I mean I spoke of manufacturing which is a new theme which private equity hasn't done enough of which is something that we are picking up there is healthcare, there is financial services still a very credit under penetrated economy right so there is a lot you can do on the financial services across spectrum microfinance to bank we've run it all and you know I would say healthcare again significant under penetration both on pharma and services side so I would say across the board I think they are excited about it let me link this back to the bull case that you spoke of you know the expectation or the assumption was that private equity really have to be patient capital when they put their money to work in India is that starting to change both in terms of exit opportunities as well as in terms of returns most certainly yes so I think the exit environment is far more vibrant than it was even five years back let alone a decade back right but having said that I would still say it's a you know you need to be patient in India because it's you know by the bull case and you asked this question earlier which is the risk the risk is an execution risk here right so while everything will eventually go up I think there will be bumps along the way like in any other emerging market which is powerful course but you know let's talk about the exit opportunities let's talk about what we've seen happen as far as the IPO pipeline is concerned you know what gives you confidence on that side of the story and how do you see that playing itself out over the next few years I don't know much about the IPO market I rarely subscribed to IPOs myself secondary markets were offering great bargains but I just add to the point that Harsha said India's you know when Neil Armstrong went on the moon 50 years ago he said it's a small leap for man but a great leap for mankind he was talking of the great step he made on the moon I think digitization is a great leap forward we're not understanding the full impact of what digitization meant while I was coming in the plane Sherina read this quote which said that in the near future every product will be manufactured digitally and then physically so that's a huge change that's taking place whether in our BPO businesses whether it's in our manufacturing businesses whether it's in our country in terms of delivering services to the corporate and India is amazingly even as I speak to you a lead in digital services UPI, Aadha, PTIM whatever it's extraordinary what strides we've made in the last five years of digitization so I think there's one theme you want to latch on to this thing digitization digitization the big theme as far as Ramesh Damani is concerned for the decade since we are taking a more long term view here as far as this panel is concerned one headline that you would chase I would chase the Indian consumer who is a force to reckon with both within India we actually see that by virtue of the stock market and the retail participation there we see that by virtue of the domestic consumption story but the Indian consumer will be a global force and you're seeing that with international travel and tourism where the Indian consumer is already a global force and we'll see it in many other categories as well I'd say that it's a great time to be an Indian it's a great time to be in India and it's a great time to be an Indian as well Ashish you know I don't remember the last time I heard global CEO of luxury brands like Bulgari talking about the fact that India is going to be one of their top five markets over the next decade so that story is clearly booming I mean you can't get enough Mercedes off the shelves you can't get enough watches and bags and so on and so forth off the shelves how much of that is going to be thematically a theme that you see continuing to play out I would still be so I agree with you have to follow Indian consumer and that will be a global force but I think the Indian consumer is also value conscious so he's going to do a lot more is the hope and the right thing to do rather than just consume foreign luxury brands now to get deposits given the fact that we're seeing a lot of that money coming into the markets definitely yes that is the case and that's I think one of the reasons why private banks after outperforming for two decades started underperforming because it's no longer the first choice of savings for a lot of consumers and I think that will be the trend going forward the headline that you're going to I mean it is actually across the board right I mean for us it is India is the investment destination across the globe right pick any country and I would say that it has some chinks in the armor today which is which are challenges as it stands today don't see too many of those in India so I would say you know just chase India just chase India double down on India double down on India you know on the other finish will it matter for instance if the next government were to do bank privatization or not asset monetization big pipeline had been laid out we didn't deliver on that front I mean I'm asking from a market's perspective what will the market factor in in terms of expectations are asked from the next government I mean there is some expectation that the government will privatize a lot of its assets the government has publicly said that they will do that but I think more important we want good corporate governance less corruption less leakages which I think this government has already delivered if they do extraordinarily good privatization like IDBA bank is up on the block that is done in a fair transparent manner I think the market will be extremely enthused by that and I think that depends on the majority that this government gets finally if they get a good majority I think they will be able to put some thoughts through parliament which other governments could not do because of say like what what would the number one priority on that front be what you would like them to do no a PSU privatization theme actually take that to the next level the government has said that other than strategic defense and space they will privatize all the PSU it makes sense to me but more importantly is the first step they have taken is to improve the corporate governance I mean the corporate governance improved dramatically in those PSU so that has enthused the market that will actually be the icing on the cake Ashish to you as well on the unfinished agenda what is it that you would like to see being prioritized as far as policy intervention government decision making is concerned I think for the next decade or so some incentive to do big ticket R&D whether it is setting up large reputable educational institutions encouraging more and more R&D and I think India can afford to do that today the way we have seen a conglomeration of the country top 5 groups have a lot of cash flow at their disposal and I think that can be put to good use with the right kind of government reform so that is one thing that I would put on the top on unfinished agenda so drive the R&D push but the government has said that it is up to the corporate sector to do that but on the larger issue of private sector CAPEX really taking off not picking up taking off do you expect to come over the next few years? I think definitely yes and one segment that we didn't speak much about was the energy space I think the largest CAPEX will be in that space on the renewable side and thermal will also make a comeback given the sheer demand for power that we will have as a nation on the renewable side again I will say green hydrogen or green energy in general would require a lot of CAPEX R&D as well so I think that is one theme that can be the largest Indian company a decade from now could be in the energy space would be in the energy space could be potentially from the energy space Harsha Rangavan you already got two aircraft what could your fleet look like given the fact that you are so bullish on the Indian consumer well India has you know a couple of hundred airports and many of them are all very well maintained by the government and other administrators but unfortunately underserved or even totally unserved and there are large population centers who either wish to travel or live in those locations and who need a solution so we believe that the opportunity to provide air travel cheap efficient and comfortable air travel across every part of India we believe that that's what the Indian consumer needs and what kind of money are we talking about that you are not just in the aviation side of the business but outside of that that you are going to put to work over the next five to ten years well like I mentioned earlier the white spaces are tremendous and across the board as India leapfrogs across the industrial revolution and digital revolution so I'd say that the industry will put many billions to work we'll play our small little role in that with our small fund our conversion finance I'm going to ask you to wrap this up because I know that you always have something very wise to share with us you know as we look at India's place in the world as we look at what's happening in the rest of the world but more importantly what's propelling the Indian economy all the factors that you spoke of many have called it India's decade many believe it could be potentially India's century as well how would you sum up the India story today and I often ask this question when is the best time to invest in India is it too late now the best time to invest in India was in July 1992 just before the realisation was announced the second best time to invest in India is today I think the country is on upward trajectory out there I think we are on a path that will take us from a third world country to the second largest economy in the world and I think the best way as Indians have now figured out in the last few years is participate, put your money to work in the stock market because it gives you better returns than the FD and your bank deposits so I think it's a great time to invest in India and I think in the next 20 years we'll see a transformation in our lives that we could not have imagined that it would take place 20 years back but so I with the rest of the panel remain the eternal optimist the glass is always full out here well it is the time to bet on India and it is the time to invest in India that is unequivocally the message here from our panel of experts thank you so much Ashishweta, Ramesh Tamani and Harsh thank you very very much for your insights and for sharing your wonderful stories here with us ladies and gentlemen thank you very very much for joining us here this afternoon Thank you so much Shireen that was an absolute masterclass on the stock markets on investing there is absolutely no doubt ladies and gentlemen that it is India's moment and India has been trying to seize the China plus one strategy yes, post the Covid pandemic post the Ukraine war every company every government is looking at diversification and everyone is looking at India in fact the DHL global CEO very recently said in India while he was making a commitment of 200 million euros or 1800 crore rupees for the next 3 to 5 years that India today is among the top 2 markets for DHL and there are at least 4 economies such as Vietnam, Indonesia and India which will benefit from the China plus one strategy and India just needs to get this right this China plus one window is going to be there for the next 3 to 4 years and that's what everyone feels that India must seize the moment in fact when it comes to Vixit Bharat very recently the Prime Minister had a council of ministers meeting and the message was do not take a back seat just because we are going into elections we need to keep on working because when the budget is delivered in July we will come out with a Vixit Bharat or a developed India road map for 2047 and manufacturing ladies and gentlemen will have a big role to play and we've been speaking about economic reforms but let's also speak about the government's constitutional reforms such as revoking special status for Jammu and Kashmir and that brings me to our next topic the Syrian environs of Dal Lake in Kashmir witnessed a thrilling spectacle recently as the valley hosted its inaugural formula for car racing event sleek racing cars rode along the picturesque boulevard road leaving behind trails of excitement in their wake against a stunning backdrop of the Zawarban hills a new development paradigm is definitely now in motion in Jammu and Kashmir and how ladies and gentlemen several highway and infrastructure projects are being built across the state thousands of crores of rupees are being invested the world's highest railway bridge is being constructed in Jammu and Kashmir which is nothing short of a modern-day engineering marvel schools and colleges are functioning uninterruptedly and the tourists are returning to the paradise on earth the transformation is visible and who better to talk about Naya Kashmir New India than Amir Hussain Lone a paracricketer Nazirdar a beekeeper and honey producer someone who has been a beneficiary of the Vixit Bharat program Shehla Rashid Chora former vice president JNU Students Union in a conversation with Rubika Liyaqat Rubika it's over to you and your guests Ladies and gentlemen this is going to be a fascinating conversation over the next one I know a lot of you want to get up for tea but I'll request you to stay on you don't want to miss this one Thank you Welcome again to Naya Kashmir New India Next half an hour there is no other witness of this new Kashmir the birth of the same land the growth of the same land these three beautiful personalities are going to give you At the beginning I am going to start with you Alhamdulillah you have come from here and you have reached the best place of your life Has the real Kashmir really changed? Absolutely there is no doubt there are many changes because I was small and in 1997 I was in an accident but what I saw in Kashmir and recently there are a lot of changes like our TMI and a lot of changes in which the best health card I really liked it I don't know how many people's lives have been saved and I also belong to our family and I salute my PM on this Mr. Narayan Ramodi do you salute that card? Do you also salute to remove 370? I have a lot of changes because especially in our village there was no BG what I was seeing was that even though there is power in our village and I want to say thank you to our PM 100% the electricity has reached the villages of Kashmir I want to tell the viewers once and I want to tell about Amen Lone that in 2013 there was an accident both hands were lost and when the family came to meet the mother of Amen started saying that if it was better then the child would have died but Amen didn't give up he kept working hard and when you see him with bat and bat then you will say wow and recently Sachin Tandalkar has also come how was he? I felt very good with Sachin sir because in my childhood I had a dream that I should become like Sachin sir but after the accident our dream was broken but after the accident although in our family there was a lot and the land was sold so that I could be fine and then people told my parents that you have so much money why did you save it? and both hands were not left but my uncle he supported me the most and he always told me son look at someone keep your mind fresh don't pay attention to anyone don't pay attention to anyone don't pay attention to anyone and then I came back to my life that was not in our home television so he turned off his TV and told me get out of here and as soon as I left I was playing with Sachin sir and then I came to see where I was from and there was a window and in between I was watching Sachin sir and as soon as I saw the whole I went home and I was thinking that I want to play and how to play but I told my uncle that you should throw me a game and my uncle didn't know how to play so he picked up the game and started bowling and I picked up the game between my neck and shoulder and that's where I used to play no, it won't work like that you will have to do it we have Balla if you have Balla then please bring it bring it quickly and Shaila will bowling yes, absolutely why not even grandmothers didn't know how to throw the ball come on throw but you don't want to hit the six no, no, no, the six doesn't even want to then we will do it happily oh wow done this is tie it okay, okay hold this you threw a wonderful ball this is from the ear so you started batting yes, ma'am then what is this because I couldn't play in public because of this I used to play with children and when I used to go to them they would reject me that I don't have hands, how can I play but it was my dream to be like Sachin sir and for this I did a lot of hard work although the match I play I play Leather with a hand mitt in fact I don't have any problems in playing then I learned Balle then I learned Gain and recently in ISPL in a match like Sachin sir he invited me when you met him did you ever dream that Sachin would play Balle in Kashmir in Kashmir no, I didn't because I because I had never thought in my life that Sachin sir would come to our Kashmir this is a change in Kashmir do you understand in the streets the God of cricket was playing Balle and was playing Gain because even before that we have seen that there was no bat no ball Kashmir is changing people are saying that Shaila has changed thank you Rubika many people are saying how did you change you took U-turn you turned 180 degrees but the fact is that I have changed Kashmir has changed it's not I who has changed it is things in Kashmir it is the situation on ground that has changed and I am only articulating that change I am only acknowledging that change which you will listen to but you saw you were in Kashmir you saw the rally of PM Modi how the common city was going there this is the first time in a politician's rally people are going I won't say many people will say that you have changed you have become a pro-government that is not the point my purpose is not that we have to put butter in the central government there are many issues such as electricity power cuts there are many issues but the fact that these are our issues today this is a big thing that the problem of electricity is the problem of the road although a lot of work is being done roads are being built new highways are being built but this is a big change that today our problem is that we are getting power cuts today our problem is that we have to fill the manhole because if you remember 10 years ago there was only one problem you used to watch Tashaddut you used to ask for freedom today the first time the civic issues have come you have changed so there will be people's expectations there will be people's complaints that 24 hours people will keep doing nothing like that people will complain people will complain by accepting their own government by accepting their own country what does it mean because I can understand between JNU student union we have seen your opposition and all the ways if you go back and move forward with that whole thought that what you were thinking or what you were fighting for maybe it was the wind when the storm broke the world came out when did you decide that now it's time now it's time I will say that this was a long process it was an evolution where issues were seen during the Covid the world changed so there were many things that I saw that the opposition we do and many times without issues like the mask we have to oppose the mask the vaccine we have to oppose the lockdown so if you see in such countries where there was no lockdown even there where there was a lockdown even there was a lockdown so there are many oppositions because there are camps so we have to oppose the government so we have to oppose the government now my personal as I said many things the opposition so a different theory of change that the government wanted we were giving a different theory of change but the government has demonstrated in the last 10 years you remember last 10 years we didn't want to make an example that there is a surveillance people are using digiatra using digilocker we make accounts on Zerodha we do stock market trading so there is authentication through Aadhaar internet is not even cut so a different theory of change government has demonstrated that the narrative of Vixit Bharat is a vision a concrete model of governance and for the next 25 years there is a vision so there is no problem that we are young we are restless but as much as I am not my age I think it is the experience of PM Modi on the ground so even if he removed 370 and had a good impact I think he saw things somewhere and he decided that this is a problem to resolve I had to go to Kashmir before 370 when 370 was removed Kashmir reached the next day after that when the first time was made on 15th August even then I was in Kashmir when Prime Minister Narendra Modi went to 7th March when Nazim spoke to Prime Minister even then I was in Kashmir even before and after Nazim, you were a friend of PM you became a friend you became the best friend how did you become the best friend? ma'am if I talk I have travelled a lot in Kashmir in 2018 my journey started at that time there was no market open there were internet shutdowns at that time in 2020 I made a website at that time I thought I should leave because there was an internet problem I connected 5 connections private one GEO one EATL one BSN one no one was there after that when the change came after that I saw our website started running the website never stopped the growth started and during that growth I had to hand hold the department because of their hand holding I reached a level and there I spoke to Prime Minister and when he heard my story after hearing that story he made me his friend in the same language where his rally was being addressed when he was addressing he said I have come from Delhi far away from Kashmir and far away from my heart do you feel that your distance is over? no no it is completely gone because I spoke to Mr. Amir about health card recently I had a small surgery I used that health card I took the benefit you will see a person in Kashmir who does not have that health card someone has reached 20,000, 30,000, 5,000, 10,000 benefits so today things are changed tell me one thing why were you so close to your heart when you didn't then you feel these people have come they will kill us they will destroy Kashmiris especially with the government with 370,000 who was the one who told you this is your soul Kashmir is over ma'am no one told me but we were told in Kashmir that it was 370 there were talks about mobile so according to me we had this knowledge I still have the knowledge that in 370 here in 370 you will get a lot of work meaning here any Indian will start living your jobs will go what will Kashmiri do this was the problem what will Kashmiri do now I am also a Kashmiri what did I do I stood on my own feet took support of the government and then I travelled and today the result is in front of you this 370 you too were different and after 370 you started seeing Modi tell me the truth I am not like that if I talk to you for the first time our Modi I know however I if I talk to you I don't belong to anyone and because I don't do because I want something from anyone because I went for a job I am talking to myself I went for a job although I did 10 plus 2 Alhamdulillah I have studied but after that I swear by Allah I have to eat so much I know there is a cricket kit I have to eat although recently I have everything I put a letter in 2021 I put a letter to the kit I swear by Allah I got so much from my father I got money from my mother I have to go somewhere but I didn't get that kit for net but I didn't get it so what happened we have to eat I am talking to myself but if I love someone Mr. Narendra and because I don't have a kit although it is his then I love him a lot because he has done such a job he is capable I think there are many people who have done such a job I because I went to everyone who was our last government I went to them I swear by Allah I have to eat so much I know there was a letter for a cricket kit he didn't give I know now you have that kit have you got it I have it no one gave it Alhamdulillah there is one who has provided me recently as I was in Delhi in a show he gave me a lakh he gave me so I am absolutely capable of praising him so because if PM Modi and his government are listening to you then what do you want to say to them you are saying that after 370 years things have improved but there are still many things which we have to follow as far as I am concerned I will reject it because the children who are playing cricket who still have a place who have a dream I will do something for my country but the children are still following because some people are still stopping and I want to tell PM Modi that please understand because the talent is disappearing in our democracy after 370 years have there been any changes that this is going on as it is there has been no change I think it is still going on as it was as it was before because here PM Modi does not have any information as much as I know I belong to a small village tell me about cricket grounds that is also important the village I live in where my street is passing I swear by God Mr. Sachan was coming in our village but the road was bad so I could not come there as shehla is saying there was a time when freedom was asked there was a time when we were talking about other facilities when we were talking about roads, electricity, water other facilities do you believe that there is a big change because before this there was a stone in the hands of youth like you if not I think there are a lot of people I think there are 55% of people who love Mr. Modi I know there are a lot of changes there are a lot of changes but if we keep an eye on more it will be the best there is a lot of need but for that it is the first thing that should happen and it has not happened yet I think the discussion is going on the right line where I also go I have recently interacted with youth and I got to hear that this scheme is very good I spoke to Lakhpati the beneficiaries of the golden card and everyone said it is going well and such good schemes should come so Kashmir is becoming aspirational now first it is not right to take such demands or the scheme should come it was believed that you are a traitor it was believed to be a traitor today we are taking demands Lakhpati is saying that it is a very good scheme we need a better scheme the first thing the second thing you said what else should happen I think the way I see things the vision of Vixit Bharat in 2047 our independence will be 100 years so in the vision of Vixit Bharat Vixit Kashmir and Vixit Jammu Kashmir is also very important the most important thing for that is skills because our landlocked economy we do not have a port we do not have an outlet for trade so our means Kashmir on our land one thing that can go well is the services sector skills for youth and you know there are many prominent people sitting in this room right now and many people who are watching us and I would invite them to come and invest in Kashmir to come and invest in skill building because we have some of the most talented workforce which needs grooming which needs investment which needs skill building so I would say that Vixit Kashmir or Vixit Jammu Kashmir already the industrial land for example if you are a 6900 acre land the 50% land is unusable 50% or 40% land is unusable because it is a mountainous the land holding size is very small so your primary and secondary sector there is a limitation on how much that can grow but there is absolutely no limit on how many skills we can so if this is being heard by the central government right now I would say that that is the one area that needs focus the way you are talking there are a lot of demands for Kashmir but will you keep this demand or will you choose to keep it I am talking with respect to the common city and you can keep talking but next time when I will invite you will you come with respect to the common city or will you become an MP InshaAllah you will have a lot but there is no such plan but I want to say that you can think of me as a network repeater you can just think of me as a Wi-Fi amplifier you can understand that I am coming from the ground, I am coming from Kashmir talking to people, interacting you have put a lot of pressure on me so tell me which party is becoming an MP will Shaila Rashid join the BJP I will say the same again that this whole thing is not about me my transformation it is not really about me it is about the transformation that is happening you can't get out of this house you have to answer my question can Shaila Rashid be in politics in the coming days see there is no secret that I am political I am a very political individual I think I don't even remember when I was in politics and Kashmiri children are political they are politically aware so this is not a different thing that I am politically outspoken I am politically outspoken in Kashmir but what I have to do is to take everyone along to be the voice of everyone and for that it is not necessary to be a member of parliament as a common citizen I am talking here I am talking about the electricity issue you will come in politics or NCE or PDP there is no such plan I am just a common citizen and you can see the same in me that you will see in Kashmir's common citizen a quick question you have answered me let me know so that we have a chance to have headlines but after 370 BJP's mission can be completed in 370 in 2024 what do you think? Ma'am tell me I was a bit smart on the other side I am saying 370 is gone but the target of BJP is that they will bring 370 seats in Kashmir in 370 seats can they put some seats in BJP's pocket ma'am I think it can be it can be what do you think? if we talk about Jammu and Kashmir Jammu is still there but what about Kashmir? see it is not my job to speak for BJP or for the government but yes definitely BJP should capitalise on the good work that it is done in Kashmir and it should definitely get more credible faces big faces you know come on the ground and behave like a normal party that was a stigma with BJP people love PM Modi LG Manoj Sanha they respect him a lot they think he is impartial but if we want to converge on the ground so for this BJP will have to get down in the ground Shaila is saying something listen to this BJP you will have to support this BJP there was a news that there is no BJP, no Modi there is no Amit Shah now he has gone far I am asking politically the Kashmiri who has benefited seriously it will be him who has been uplifted ma'am seriously he will do thank you very much thank you very much Rubika for getting us an interesting panel discussion what has changed in Jammu and Kashmir since 2019 when India actually went ahead and revoked the special status for Jammu and Kashmir and since then we have been trying to make sure that more and more people are coming to Jammu and Kashmir and we have been trying to make sure that more and more people are coming to Jammu and Kashmir we have been trying to make sure that more and more manufacturing more and more companies go to Jammu and Kashmir in fact G20 took place in Jammu and Kashmir as well I would like to inform you ladies and gentlemen we have 4 Grammy winners amongst us today and they will bring us an unforgettable performance believe me you wouldn't want to miss this please do come back after a short 20 minute tea break tea is served at the Shah Jah hall but please be right back in 20 minutes in just minutes morning today thank you the way in which we work we are working for the country the way we work we are working on the entire community Ashwini Ji, when we talk about 2047 we talk about that India that has already grown so Imaa tell this to the heart of your mind how a Railman gets the Railway Network how the train How can the people of Pakistan see it? Look, in this period of 10 years of Modi Ji, there has been a very strong legacy. Today, the 10 years of Modi Ji's legacy and the 25 years of the plan is the first message of the Indian People's Party to the people of this country. In this 10 years of legacy, practically, many states have electrified 100 percent. 40,000 km of railway electrification has been done. In 60 years, 20,000, in 10 years, 40,000. Approximately 30,000 km of new railway tracks have been made. That is, the railway network of Germany has been connected to the railway network of India. Last year, 5,000 km were connected and this year too, in the report of yesterday, 5,226 km have been connected to the railway network. That is, railway network has been connected to India every year compared to Switzerland. Totally new generation trains have arrived, new trains have arrived. In today's trains, our middle classes and aspirational youth are getting such experiences that they get in the best railway system of the world. New trains are very successful for regional transit. People are getting sleeper, metro, Amrit Bharat train is coming. So, what you have seen, in these 10 years, the foundational elements to make India grow, to make the foundation, to make the neem, to make the neem. In the next 5 years, we will strengthen this neem. Minister, I am stopping you for a second. You are saying that this neem has been kept in 2014. What was going on before this? Before this, if I talk about the railway, then the railway was considered equal to a milk-growing cow. There was a condition in which the railway ministers would only pay attention to the stoppage or extension of the train or the announcement of the new train. There was no concern for the capacity of the patriots. In this way, the railway administration was running, the railway minister and the government, in which the railway was not focused, the passenger was not focused, it was just their political focus. Mr. Modi depoliticized the railway. The railway in a technical way, in an operational efficiency way, in the way of absorbing new technology, Mr. Modi took that into his primary focus. He merged the railway budget into the general budget. Where only Rs. 15,000 crores were available to the general budget. Today, Rs. 2,25,000 crores of railway budget support is available. Funding has increased, work has increased, there have been many reforms. There have been many major structural reforms due to which the railway has come into such conditions that it has become a good foundation in the next 10 years. In the next 5 years, the railway will strengthen its foundation. Many new technologies will strengthen it more and in the next 20 years, the railway will see a new shape. Changes are being seen on the railway station. Everyone here will agree on this. But when we go to the railway station, it is true that 41 people have come to India, Namo and Amrit have come to India. Even today, the travellers are worried about the crowd. They are worried about the reservation in the trains. How much time can you tell the minister that the time will come when the 700 crores of travel will come in a year. It will be up to 12,000 or 13,000 crores. It will be up to 13,000 crores. There will be 1,000 crore passengers travelling in the railway. Look, the capacity is being made accordingly. There is a fundamental difference between trains and highways. You cannot drive a car without a battery in the train. The condition of the road, the condition of the road, the car runs for once. That is why it is very important to increase the capacity in the railway network as many technologies as possible such as the new batteries of the railway, the automatic signalling, the complete control system of the railway, which is called the centralised train control CTC, go to that technology. The acceleration of the trains when they stop after the break, and reduce the time, the 20-25 KV, it is a very massive technical work. In the whole technical work, the speed in which the work is going on, we are very comfortably, I can say with good confidence level, that by 2030, the capacity to carry 1,000 crores of passengers every year will be carried. Today, we carry around 700 crores of passengers a year. Railway, if you look at the entire network of the country, look at the economics of transportation, in transportation, 700 crores go from the railway, around 250 crores go from the highway, and around 35 crores go from the aeroplane. So this is the network right now. In this, 700 crores will be 1,000 crores by 2030. In these years, what has happened that all these trains are so fast, whether it is the new India, whether it is the people of India, is this just a will, or were there other things that brought you this work on a fast track in addition? There are three things. One is to bring a very strong focus, to bring technology, a very strong focus, to depoliticise the railway, to focus on the railway's operational efficiency. In railway, one way was to work, the other was to increase the funding. The third, the PM said very quickly, that no matter how hard it is to take a decision, to take a decision, to take a decision, like for example, a new improvement has been made in the maintenance of a new railway, the first thing that used to happen was that the day you have to do maintenance, for example, the day you have to do daily maintenance, the same day, all the contractors, machines, spare, material, all the labour, all would come. So, from morning till evening, we would wait, from 4 to 5 o'clock, we would get permission, we would never get permission, we would go back. This was such a path, that went on for 60-70 years. Now, in today's railway, every thank you, for the next 26 weeks, for the next 26 weeks, we would make a detailed plan, for the next 26 weeks. Meaning, like in Japan, the maintenance is done, or in Germany, or in developed countries. We do it every Friday. The same, advanced planning, is being done in our railways. So, these are the cutting-files. In this, you have to put the whole organisation in the habit of changing together. So, in a new way, you have to come into practice. So, this is not an easy task. There is a lot of work and continuous communication with the top-to-bottom-most layer. If you go to a supervisor, and talk to him, and I will listen to you, any Pathway Inspector, Section Supervisor, talk to him, he is so happy, so happy, that he gets the time for maintenance. He is happy, I mean, before this, you were saying that everything would have been easy, politics would not have worked. Now, you are just working, and he is happy. Absolutely, he is happy. And, in fact, at least, I am with the officials at the low level, who are not even a group of officers, who work in the group C, I interact a lot with them, I take a lot of input from them, I also take a lot of feedback. I am so happy with this, till we can make difference. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. You have been doing a great job, very well, wanna thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you'. Thank you. Thank you駋,駋. Thank you. But when it happened, it hurt everyone. Look, Kavach is a class of technology which is called automatic train protection, ATP technology. ATP technology started in the world's largest railway systems in the 1980s. In the 1980s, it started in the early 90s. In the 2000s, it was fully ATP in all the big railways in the world. What were the governments doing then? Were they not responsible for ATP? Were they not responsible for investing in safety? They didn't do anything for the new technology. In 2016, for the first time in India, ATP technology was considered by Modi. In 2016, the country should have covered the entire country from ATP technology. In 2016, it was considered. In 2019, it received all its certifications. In 2020, it was due to COVID-19. But even after that, it worked very fast. Kavach is not like a device that was installed on a train. Kavach is a system. You have to install optical fiber cables along the railway tracks. For example, there is a network of Airtel, Geo or BSNL. You have to install telecom towers every 7 or 8 km. You have to install telecom devices on the telecom towers. Then you have to install a device on the train. You have to integrate with the signaling system. You have to build a data center on every station. You have to build a complete data center. Then you have to complete a centralized train control data center. It's a very complex technology. In the world, it took 20 to 25 years to build a small network of 8,000, 10,000, 20,000 km. It's a network of 75,000 km. But it's working so fast. New manufacturers are joining. New designers are joining. Many types of innovations are being made. The design of the station is to be automated. This is a commitment. The commitment that Modi has made to make railway safe in the country, has invested 1,87,000 crores in 10 years. If you compare it, it is more than 2.5 times. In the last 4 to 14 years, the investment was more than 2.5 times. And you can see the result. The result is very unfortunate. But even further efforts will increase to 100% safety. There is a commitment regarding the bullet train. Mr. Ashwini Vaishnav, when there is so much dirt, which you are trying to fill, many people say, does the bullet train need this country? What will you say to them? Bullet train is a means of transportation. If you look at the bullet train, the bullet train that runs on the path, all the city's economy is connected to that path. I will give a very good example of Japan. When the first bullet train started in 1969, Tokyo, Nagoya, Kobe, Kyoto and Osaka. All these economies become one economy together. You cover the distance of 500 km in 2 to 3 hours. If you are working in Kyoto, you worked in Osaka. In the evening, you came back to your children in Kyoto. There is a serious regional multiplier of development. When you look from Mumbai to Ahmedabad, Mumbai, Thane, Wapi, Surat, Baroda, Anand and Ahmedabad. All these economies will become a single economic zone. You will have breakfast in Baroda in the morning. You will reach Mumbai within an hour. You will work day and night. You will get the train back in the evening. You will come home and eat with your children. When will Haseen's dreams come true? In 2026. Look at today. I forget to count 200 daily. I reviewed it 10-12 days ago. It has already become 284 km. It is looking like tracks. It is looking like an overhead electrical system. The manufacturing of the train. All these things are going fast. I will not mention the position of any country in this country. It takes 20-25 years to complete a project of 500 km. This project will be completed within 8-10 years. The train will go from Surat to Bilimura in 2026. You will see. It is a world class. Absolutely world class. Time is moving ahead. I am taking the train to my station. I am coming to your next minister. Before that. Do you want to give the number of the rail ministers of this country? 10-5 of them. It is your job. It is not our job. I want to work hard. I want to work hard. I am coming to Digital India. It is the dream project of Prime Minister Narendra Modi. It has the most important semiconductors. We are talking about it. In fact, it started from Basat. I will go by time. It has not been able to become a semiconductor. Now you are saying that India will soon get the first semiconductor. These are two questions. I will go in the sun shape. Why not yet? What have you done today? In December 2024, the first made-in-India chip will be in the market. December 2024. It is not too far. Keep it in note. In December 2024, the first chip will be in the market. Look, it has been tried since 1982. But until any effort is done, your fundamental conviction is not possible. Mr. Modi has such a strong conviction that when we want to make a developed India, what will it take in its foundation? It is very important in its foundation. Electronics manufacturing. Whether it is manufacturing in the sense that you watch TV at home, you watch the fridge, or you watch power electronics, telecom, or you watch the electronics in the defense, or you watch the electronics in the car, it looks like a semiconductor in everything. So anything that is on or off, there is a semiconductor in it. Absolutely. Whether it is light, whether it is a missile, whether it is a train, whether it is an aeroplane, whether it is a fridge, everything that is on or off, there is a semiconductor chip in it. I am saying this with a lot of responsibility. As Mr. Modi has shown the commitment, and I can give you personal examples of this. For the semiconductor discussion, when the Prime Minister used to ask for half an hour or 45 minutes of time, I am saying this in front of the public today, but the Prime Minister took half an hour and 45 minutes of time. We used to ask for 45 minutes of time, and he would give us 3 hours of time. One line by line, the Prime Minister would discuss in detail. All the concerns related to the government, there are a lot of issues related to the government. He would personally call every department and sit with them. And the Prime Minister would say, we have to be successful in semiconductor. We have to be successful in semiconductor. Such a commitment is impossible for any other Prime Minister. You are saying that the impossible commitment is visible from the government, from the Prime Minister, Narendra Modi. But Vipaksh Askar, is saying that this is a jobless growth. He is saying that the working class is less than 50% and it has been around for the last 9 years. You people are growing, and no one is able to give a job. Let me give you a challenge. Through this lunch, you have reached a challenge. EPFO, Employee Provident Fund Organization. This is an organization in which the person who goes to work has a registration, a deduction from his salary and a deduction from the organization. There is absolutely such data where the data is accepted everywhere. According to the data of EPFO, the new people who get into the job, the people who get out of the job, plus the people who come back in the job. They must have left somewhere and come back. The net number of this, that total job opportunity, it is a simple number, that total job opportunity is 6 lakh per month. 6 lakh per month. 6 lakh per month. 6 lakh per month. Today, on average, it is 12 lakh per month. 12 lakh per month means a year worth of 1 crore 24 lakhs. 12 x 12 is 144. 1 crore 24 lakhs is the job opportunity created. You should ask Mr. Chitamaramp whether this data is true or not. This is the data. Many economists have checked this data. I hope that Mr. Chitamaramp will accept this challenge and we will definitely reach you to this challenge. There is one more form of Vipaksh. He says that we have become manufacturing hubs. But you don't do any manufacturing, you just assemble. You have given the name to him. You are talking about manufacturing. Let's say, let me give you a name for manufacturing. Until you accept it. Look, in any country when any industry starts, take an example of the car industry. Since 1980 when the car industry started. First of all, it became the CKD of the car which is a completely knocked down unit. After that, it became the ecosystem of some component manufacturers. After that, it became the manufacturer of many components of the ecosystem. Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3 vendors. After that, it started to be exported. This is a cycle. Every industry has a life cycle. If this life cycle is the government of Congress in 1980, in 1970, then where would the situation of the country be today? Congress had already wasted 4 decades of India. 4 decades lost decades of India. Because there were policies of Congress in which manufacturing was completely knocked down. It was made as a mockery of the laws. In which a person could not do manufacturing. Even before 1990, if you wanted to change the design of your car, then you had to come to a government and take permission. There was a mockery of the laws. You are getting more simplification. Baby steps are being taken. Today, we are in such situations where manufacturing is to be a hub. That foundation has been laid down. You will see in the next 5 years. I will give you examples and numbers. It is necessary to take numbers because we should talk to the data. We should not just talk to the data. Mobile manufacturing. Practically, it was a negligible number 10 years ago. Today, it is 55 billion dollars. Electronics manufacturing. Practically, it was a negligible number. Today, it is a data of last year. It is 105 billion dollars. Today, it is growing. Defense manufacturing. Today, it is export of 2 billion dollars. Telecom manufacturing. We could not even imagine that a veteran of some industry said that he had 30 years of telecom industry experience. He said, we could not even imagine that telecom manufacturing would be in India. Today, it is export of 1 billion dollars. America, US, Europe. It is export of all places. What do Congress people say? Until the end of the century, they are able to answer their mistakes and we are working hard. People are watching. When we are working hard, do they feel ashamed? We have only a few minutes left and I want you to answer these two very important questions. One is about fact checking unit. If the government starts checking then how will it go? Your work is about citizens' medicines. If you have to take information on CNN TV 18 then who will you ask? Will you ask CNN TV 18 or not? Who will ask the information of your organization? If you want to ask any news of the Indian government about any scheme then who will you ask? If you have work with the ministry then who will you ask? If you ask health ministry then will you ask power ministry or the power ministry. That is the basic common sense. You will ask the government or a private organization and you will ask the private organization. What if you don't like the question? It is not a question. It is a fact. There is a difference in the opinion. Where you don't like the fact then you can verify it. The verification is that how much vaccine did you take? Who will you ask? So, you are saying that this is the right decision and it is a correct decision, a democratic decision, a constitutional decision. Thank you very much, Ashwani Vaishnav Ji, for answering all our questions. Thank you. Thank you very much. There were many more questions. But Ashwani Vaishnav Ji, who was telling us about the work that has been done and how he is moving ahead with the development of India. Thank you very much, sir. Before we move on, I would once again like to thank you very much for the to remind you that we are going to be having in our presence four Grammy Award winners amongst us who will also be giving us an unforgettable performance tonight. Now, ladies and gentlemen, from religion to politics to economics, we've had a range of diverse conversations on issues that matter. In fact, one such burning hot topic was India versus Bharat. It was a political controversy that stirred the dynamics of a nation's name. So Bharat as the successor state to the Indic civilization has remained a fascinating idea of research and debate. More so in recent history when Bharat years have begun to undertake a critical decolonial study of Bharat's history, especially in the context of the very important constitution. So that ladies and gentlemen, religiosity towards the document is moderated by a sense of proportion, perspective and most importantly, purpose. Our next session is with a very distinguished person on decoding Bharatya and Bharatiata. Please welcome Jayasai Deepak, lawyer and author and also Anas Ramheer, who is the advocate with the Supreme Court along with CNN News 18's Rahul Shiv Shankar. Ladies and gentlemen, let's have a nice huge round of applause. We've just come back from tea. Let's have some enthusiasm, Rahul. Thank you so much. Welcome Jayasai Deepak. Mr. Tanbir. Good evening. Good evening, everyone. The buzzword is Bharat. Bharat that is India. The Prime Minister has already outlined the ideological governance and cultural contours of the transition to Bharatiata. So let's decode Bharatya and Bharatiata with these two fine gentlemen on the stage with me. Let me first begin with you, Jayasai Deepak. You've written a number of books. In fact, you're coming out with a third in a series. What values define a Bharatya for you? So one, I think the question that is usually asked is whether this is a religious construct or a civilizational construct or a cultural construct. I think if you go by the words of Sri Sarvapali Radhakrishnan and Swami Vivekananda, it's impossible to take religion out of Bharatiya life. And I think a lot of people have tried but have failed to remove religion from even politics for that matter, whether that's for the good or the bad that I think positivity will decide. But it's a statement of fact, it exists. So I believe that religion and culture go hand in hand in informing the civilizational identity of this land which is Bharat. But the problem is if you were to treat this as a construct which is meant to exclude certain populations from the tapestry of Bharat's identity, well that's not the purpose of it. When you try and reclaim your identity, you're merely saying this is who I am and I'm happy to accommodate everybody else who does not have an antithetical relationship with this identity. So as far as I'm concerned, both Hindu dharma along with civilizational aspects which are part of let's say Hindu cultural mainstream define what is Bharatiya. During the course of the drafting of the constitution, one of the questions that was asked is that when public morality is sought to be defined and its contours are sought to be understood in the context of Bharat, what is the repository of the reservoir from which we draw those values? To which several members of the Constantine Assembly took the categorical position that dharma is the public morality of Bharat. So if you were to ask me what is the defining trait which defines Bharatiya then you start and end with dharma. Now unfortunately since English is a language which is incapable of providing a decent translation for dharma, it is typically and crudely and incorrectly translated or approximated to religion which it is not. It's more a code of conduct but it also has a certain set of principles which clearly trace their origins to the Hindu faith system or the agglomeration of Hindu faith systems so to speak. So for me in that sense, the civilizational identity of Bharat is significantly and primarily informed by Hindu dharma. But precisely because it's defined by Hindu dharma, it is capable of accommodating others who do not pose a threat to its very existence. Mr. Anas, let's build on this opening by J. S. I. Deepak. The RSX and other spokespeople expect citizens from other denominations to describe themselves as Hindus. Dharma is of course identified very closely with Hindun as they say. Vishne says the function of Bharatiata. Now how does one apply it in the context of a multi-religious society such as ours? See, my understanding of Bharatiata or dharma even for that matter has always been what I was taught as a kid in the school, We were that nation, we were very proud of it, that we are of different identities, different religions, different caste, different looks, different languages. But we were one, we had one flag, we were one nation, we were greeting it. And for me that was the only matter of dharma. Now, as J. S. I. Deepak said that Hindu dharma is defined, what is Bharatiata, what is it? I don't keep it a little separate, necessarily. My, I have to say that when in 1950 we adopted the constitution, so we decided to see this country as such, it will be such, it will be a secular country, it will be such a country where everyone will be equal, where everyone will have equal rights. Today, when you are in the nation, and I don't say that like there is a very prevalent argument regarding Article 14, I don't take that argument, so I believe that yes, the argument is for the Indians, for the citizens, I don't say that. But when you completely make the base of that dharma, then you will have to see that democracy itself is a Western construct, but we are taking it with us and we are proud of it, and in that, which other democratic or secular country where citizenship is being given on the basis of dharma, and citizenship is a right that you cannot take back. If you give it, you cannot take it. So who are we giving it, how are we giving it, it requires a lot of thinking. So this is interesting because his definition of Bharatiata is unity in diversity, sort of derives from there. Now, with the government that is identified with Hindutva, many are wary of outcomes such as these. I think he is referring without naming it to the CA. Correct. So how does one now reconcile the objectives of the CAA with the larger construct of the constitution as it stands? See, interestingly, both of us are just coming back from the Chief Justice's court. That's why both of us are trying to, let's say, channel those arguments. So you didn't finish your arguments then? No, it's missed it for April 9th, in fact. So we are on the opposite side in that matter, so I don't see why this has got to do with CA, but in any case, I'll try and address this. Just so that I answer your question to him in a slightly different fashion, I disagree with the RSS's definition of Hinduism and Hindutva completely. At least on their attempts to say that everybody who is born in this country is a Hindu. I don't think that needs to be said. I don't think someone who is a Muslim or a Christian needs to be expected to embrace the definition of Hindu in that sense because there are two problems with that approach. One, it dilutes the definition of Hindu Dharma for the followers of Dharma themselves. And second, it foists that concept on those who are not followers of the Dharma in that sense. You don't need to do that. According to me, good fences make good neighbors, period. You don't need to actually start this interfaith dialogue and look for equality and let's say similarity in everything. That is not even necessary. The point is very simple. When you speak of unity and diversity, Bharat traces that very value precisely from Hindu Dharma because Hindu Dharma is ultimately an agglomeration of multiple faith systems within itself. Several denominations subscribe to those points of view which may not actually find a point of convergence in that particular sense. The Vaishnavite might ultimately seem Vishnu as the supreme being. The Shyvait may ultimately see Shiva as the supreme being. The Shakt might see Shakti as the supreme being or Devi as the supreme being. For each of them, you can think of them as monotheism and silos, but it's a polytheistic pantheon in that particular sense. So unity and diversity as far as Bharat is concerned cannot have learned it from anybody else except Hindu Dharma at least in the history of the subcontinent, so to speak. So on that, I don't think there is a difference of view between Mr. Tanveer and me. There is a clear difference of view in the attempts on the part of, let's say, certain sections of certain cultural organizations to dilute the definition. Now, should we go to the argument of the CAA? I will just limit it to this because ultimately this matter has to be contested before the Court of Law. The Chief Justice was caught on April 9th, which is the next date. The point is, I don't think that piece of legislation is meant to threaten anybody who lives here as a legitimate citizen of the country regardless of their faith. Two, I don't think the definition of CAA or the way it is being included as a humanitarian intervention as part of the Citizenship Act has anything to do with the topic here. So let me stick to the topic here. The point is Bharatiata ultimately means that your points of loyalty, your points of allegiance are not extra territorial and that you choose loyalty to Bharat more than anything else. Now, that is easy as far as adherence of Hindu Dharma is concerned, simply because their sacred spaces are here. But if you happen to follow a certain faith system, I'm not saying that it is impossible for a non-Hindu to be loyal to Bharat. I don't think that statement can be made at all in light of the kind of examples that we have had. Right from Sri Arif Mohammad Khan of today to Abdul Kalam of the past. So I don't think those examples are valid. Those who are able to reconcile their faith which have emanated from other parts of the world and their loyalty to Bharat according to me are fully capable of subscribing to the concept of Bharatiata. I am not going to use religion as the soul and the primary filter to exclude people from the pale of Bharatiata. I'm saying those who are able to strike that balance will obviously fall within the definition. Those who think that their personal identity from a religious point of view is at loggerheads with Bharatiata would have made the decision anyways. I'm just hoping that since we are told that there is an Indian brand of certain foreign faith systems, there truly exists such Indian brands which is different from the brands that is followed in our immediate neighbourhood. That's all I can say. But this concept of let's flip the word diversity in unity. How does the CA take that forward? I know that you wanted to sort of disconnect the conversation from Bharatiata but this government claims that it is actually the one that speaks for the essence of Bharatiata and it talks about a Hindu-ness which it traces to a dharmic past. But if that CA is going to be or the Dharma is going to sort of at some level or the other bring out an exposition like the CA then we have a problem. So see let's have this conversation on the annuals of specifics. Is there any amendment to the existing Citizenship Act which precludes the possibility of non-Hindu applicants to knock at the doors of Bharat for citizenship or asylum? The answer is no. The CAA is a limited inclusive intervention. For the purposes of addressing the unfortunate realities of our immediate neighbourhood where three Islamic republics have a specific problem with other identities. That's the unfortunate reality. And we are operating under the premise that Indian Islam is different from the brands of Islam being subscribed to by our neighbours. Therefore those people who are getting the rough end of the stick thanks to the minority position in those countries are being given a certain expirited option because the first point of attack when it comes to these countries happens to be those people who do not share the faith of the majority in those countries. Therefore since they are the first points of attack, they are the softest targets possible. A limited intervention is being made. The myth that is being pervaded is that CAA translates to automatic vestation of citizenship. It doesn't because they still have to satisfy the rules that have been notified. Second, all it does is that it limits a certain cut-off period from 11 years to 6 years. Two, my own criticism of the CAA despite me supporting it in principle is the cut-off date that has been prescribed which ultimately translates to defeating the very humanitarian intention which is supposed to be the basis for the CAA. What is the point of limiting it to a particular date? Regardless of that, my argument still remains I welcome it because it doesn't take away anybody else's rights. It only makes sure that those people who are being kicked out are being welcomed as soon as possible. My criticism has also been the delayed notification of the rules. So because I am not the mouthpiece for any cultural or political outfit, I am at some liberty to criticize the proponents of the CAA themselves for the delay that they have caused after taking eight different extensions from the parliament in the notification of the rules themselves. So according to me, it's important to dehyphenate these positions from any political organization or a cultural organization because dare I say this, a lot of us are practicing Hindus not because of a political party or because of a cultural organization but because we have always been practicing Hindus their existence or absence wouldn't have made a difference to our practice in any case. So Anas, then what's the problem? He's saying that look, it's only fast-tracking, it's not denying. You can still come in if you're Muslims, if you're persecuted in various countries, in any country, you can still come here and seek refuge. See, to that extent, he's right. I'm also not denying that. It's not even fast-tracking, let me tell you. The purpose stands defeated as of now because to take the advantage of CAA, the cut-off is December 2014 and you have to be in India five years prior, that is 2009. Now that would have fast-tracked to six years instead of twelve years. We are in 2024, ten years since 2014. It's already redundant, it doesn't help anyone. See, it neither helps anyone. It actually does create problems for those who are left out of Anas in Assam. Only particularly to Assam, it does create problems for them and I will expound on that. But about the rest of the other things that Dharm and Sain Ki... I don't know if you guys remember, there was this series called Panchayat a very famous dialogue from that that he is watching without speaking in English so it's the same thing, speaking in English. What was the meaning of it? What did my brother Jay S.I. Deepak say? That if Hindus come, it's easier for them to be his brother. You are getting news every day, from Rajasthan, from Lucknow, from every place. Hindus are the ones who are arresting our agencies and supporting ISI. So you can give a blanket to any religious denomination. If you are a Hindu, you will be a good person. This doesn't make any sense. The oath of allegiance has to be taken by everyone. But this doesn't make any sense. But reasonable classifications have been used by many countries. Let's talk about Hindu. What about Tamil Hindus from Sri Lanka? What about the Buddhists from China and other places? We have a... So why did you leave them? You had to take them. And I understand that you have different policies for Tamils. You gave them, but you didn't give them citizenship. You gave them a refugee, you didn't give them citizenship. So you didn't do anything good with Hindus. You have left them. Second thing, I said, there is no quarrel with my CA. It doesn't affect me. My citizenship is safe and secure. But in Assam, the citizenship of 19.4 lakhs has gone. They can be applied for naturalization. But if the CA has to do it, I am not saying that they have to do it. If they have to do it, then 2 lakhs are called Jyothibadi in Assam. Those who always say they are Assamese, they say they are indigenous, they are also foreign. Will they prove themselves as Bangladeshi first? To be called as Hindustani. It can be very absurd that for Hindustani, for Hindustani citizenship, for naturalization, they have to prove themselves as Bangladeshi first. Okay. I'll try and make sense of the garbled argument presented here and see if I can unpack a few layers from that. Garbled argument. Yes, okay. So first, see here's the point. Ever since the end of the LTTE, the situation has normalized to such an extent that Tamil Sri Lankans are not being forced to flee that country. That is a fact. The fact of the matter is if Bharat had an equation or at least the ability to pressurize Pakistan, Bangladesh and Afghanistan to the extent that they could treat their Hindu minorities with some degree of dignity, then the CAA would actually be irrelevant and unnecessary. Because ultimately, it's a question of what is your relationship with those countries? What is the treatment of those populations by their native governments? Today, nobody can accuse the Sri Lankan government of meeting out the same treatment to Tamil Sri Lankans the way Hindus of Pakistan are being given treatment by Pakistan, Bangladesh or Afghanistan, so to speak, in those countries. So if you can ensure that they can stay in their own countries without creating any further trouble for themselves or for us, we would want them to stay there. So therefore, the entire argument is this that Bharat must effectively apply an open Dharamshala policy in the name of the CAA and the CAA is unconstitutional precisely because it doesn't open its doors to every persecuted community under the sun. Frankly speaking, this makes a mockery of the concept of sovereignty and our own borders and our own sovereign interest and security interest. I have no reason to trust a Muslim Pakistan, Afghanistan or Bangladesh period because ultimately a choice was made and therefore I will certainly view them with a certain degree of suspicion, a heightened degree of suspicion compared to people coming from the Hindu community in those states. That's a fact. But the Hindus in Pakistan stayed back in Pakistan. This is a funny part. The Hindus in Pakistan stayed back in Pakistan. The entire argument is the Hindus of Pakistan stayed back. Why? Here's the point. When Pakistan was created, the question was how do we divide land for this area called Pakistan? So the existing population of Muslims in this country and undivided Bharat was taken into account based on the 1946 elections and then the area was divided. Despite 90% of the population of Muslim community before 1946 voting for the state of Pakistan, the bulk of them stayed back. That's wrong. That's a fact. It's a fact. It's not a fact. You won't get to actually deny these facts. It is out of context. Today we are being told. We are being told. We are being told everybody who stayed back stayed back for purposes of patriotism. Sorry, 1946 elections proved whose allegiance were where. Secondly, here's the important thing. The Hindus of Pakistan... So you are talking about the 1946 elections and the results in the Muslim provinces where a large number of Muslims voted for no Muslim... Assume for a moment, you have a six-bedroom house. Out of that one portion of the family says we are X number of people. We need 50% of the house. Ultimately, only two people shift to that portion of the house that has been given for 50% of the family. The rest of them stay back. Now, because we are constantly told that Dr. Ambedkar is the framer of the constitution and we are expected to constantly count out to him. Why would Dr. Ambedkar speak of a complete exchange of populations after 1946 and after the elections if he wasn't aware of the ground reality when he was actually part of the drafting company of the constitution? So why is it that Ambedkar is selectively quoted and cited in other contexts? Why don't we quote him in this context? What did he say in his book, Pakistan of the Partition of Bharat? What did he say with respect to the reasons for population change? Why did he actually bat so vociferously for population exchange more than even? Madan Mohan Malvi for that matter. Madan Mohan Malvi is the founder of the Banaras Hindu University in 1916. These are all people who were participants in the Sangatan movement. The one who openly wrote a book asking for exchange of the Muslim population of Bharat with the Hindu population of undivided Pakistan, so to speak, was Dr. Ambedkar. What is their response to that? So if you have a problem with this argument, go ahead, call Dr. Ambedkar and Islamopope. We'll see what happens after that. No, no, I will not do that. I will not do that. Anyway, caste is a western construct. My friends said earlier. Fundamentally, there was a whole movement, as you know. Let me put nuance to what he said. They'll blame the two nation theory on Sabar Karna. They'll leave Sainad Amadkar out of the picture. See, when a man loses patience to listen, I know I have one. Of course you have one. First of all, see, this is what I learned during my days in debating. If a man attacks, see, this is the problem. This is the problem. We started with Bhadirtha. We started with Dharma. It ended up coming to Muslim from Pakistan. Like every single time. Is that Dharma? What about your own existence? Why are you not proud of that? I come from Banaras. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. Sanskrit. But you can deny the facts. No, I am not denying. 80%. 80%? Yeah, you deny this. 96%. 86%. So if they find that the idea is not a good one. In fact, they are getting actually discriminated because who they are in Pakistan, then it's not our responsibility to do that. It is not our responsibility. For Hindus also, the word for sovereignty, is said to be a border, it is a personal matter. If it's about India, it is about the people of India. Your citizenship naturalisation has a complete process. It was completed in 12 years. It was developed really well, it was a right despite the parliament. In 12 years, you are living here in India for 11 years. He is just saying that Hindustan has no civilizational obligation to the Hindus of Pakistan. Fair enough. That's what he keeps in 12 times. He's just dropped the word Hindustan. Second, Aligarh's London, which is Ayashi, is very heavy on India. Millions of people lost their lives. Millions of women were raped and paraded naked. And this is dismissed as Aligarh's London, Ayashi. How insensitive are the people of Ayashi? Millions? That's the funny part. Millions have no one. Here's the funny part. So the point I'm trying to make is, we discussed the obligation that independent Bharat has an obligation towards Hindus and Sikhs living in undivided Pakistan. This discussion happens from 45, 46, 47, because the conversation has already started. After the Lahore resolution and Karachi resolution, it's absolutely clear that Pakistan has become a reality. So then on the questions start getting addressed. The constant assembly starts, it's formulated in August 1946. Subsequently, once the conversation starts, we actually keep a few seats open in the hope that Pakistan doesn't become reality. That is the extent to which we went. When we realized this is not going to happen, we switched the conversation to ask the question, what do we do to those people who are being held hostage? Because the history of this period will show that Pakistan decided to use the non-Muslim population of that particular area as a hostage population to negotiate with Bharat. The entire basis for the Nehru Liaqat pact ultimately was this. Let's assume for a moment that we don't owe an obligation to the Hindus of Pakistan and Pakistan doesn't have a duty with respect to Muslims of India. Why did the fount of everything that's great in this country, Japan did Javarlal Nehru, choose to enter into a Nehru Liaqat pact where both of us are assuring the other with respect to the safety of religious minorities in their country. What is this basis then? Ultimately, at the political level and at the constitutional level, we have accepted that we have a civilizational duty towards these minorities. This is a documented fact. See, I'm neither holding brief for Nehru, nor I'm holding brief for Pakistan. Please answer the specific question. Forget about holding brief. I completely agree with that. At that point, we are not executing that civilizational brief. No, no, no. Allow me. The civilizational, Nehru Liaqat pact, what did it say? It said, you are the minorities of your party, we will do it on our own. It's going on there, it's going on there, it's not going on here. You can put pressure on international forums. India is very strong. We have beaten Pakistan a lot. What are you saying? We live in every war, we are higher than them in diplomacy. We are Vishwaguru, we are Madhav Democracy. The spirit of the agreement gave both the countries a say in the welfare of the religious minorities across each other's borders. Unfortunately, in Pakistan, they broke that contract, that agreement. Now we fear for the future of the religious minorities, the Hindus, the Sikhs, the Christians, the Buddhists, the Jains and the others. They say, where are the Jews? There was only one Jew according to the census of Pakistan. So here's the point. If you read articles 5 to 11 of the constitution, that is entirely Pakistan centric when you're defining citizenship as part of your own constitution because you realize that there's a continuing cord that connects you with the people there. It also speaks of how many people can go there when you come back, what happens to your citizenship, so on and so forth. So in the backdrop of your specific history of the subcontinent, considering the basis for the partition, for us to say we owe no obligations whatsoever, despite the Nehru Liaquat Act, according to me, is to make an argument in vacuum when there are clear documented facts to the contrary. Look, I get the sense. Can I ask a provocative question? But I'm very thankful to my friend here. He knows that I'm fasting and I can't speak much, so he's doing all the speaking. No, I'm fasting on Tuesday. I'm just being thankful to you. Why are you getting agitated? I'm just being thankful to you. Don't get so angry. You need not be so angry. We are very angry. What has happened? Calm down. It's good. These are the responses to my arguments. Please continue. Now I'll come to that. I said, I don't have any quarrel with my CA. I said this in the beginning. I'll come back again. Why would I have a quarrel? It's a bit unconstitutional. I agree with Samvidhan. If Samvidhan doesn't have anything illegal, then that's wrong. Okay, so one very quick question that many people bring up. Article 14, ultra-virus. No, I'm on Article 15. I'm not on Article 14. Article 15? Okay. A quick response. It's just ultra-virus of the constitution. Can I explain that? Then you can rebut that. Okay, my argument. Let me raise my argument. Section 31c of Citizenship Act, which came by the 2003 amendment for the first time, said that a child born in India will be an Indian citizen if either of the parents are Indian citizens and the other is not an illegal immigrant. I'll wrap it up. Okay, it's not an illegal immigrant. Now place this like this. I am a Muslim born after 2003. I'm an Indian citizen. My mother is not. My mother is an illegal immigrant. Similarly place, there is a Hindu kid on the same footing. He can take advantage of the CA. I cannot. Article 15 says there cannot be a discrimination on the basis of race, religion, caste, gender, so on and so forth. One minute, 20 seconds. The problem with this argument is that a Pakistani Hindu refugee who has come through a legitimate refugee channel is being equated with a Bangladeshi Muslim immigrant who has come through the illegal channel as part of this particular definition. I'm talking about Indians. I'm not even talking about Pakistanis. A Pakistani Hindu refugee and an Indian parent, so to speak, when they combine, you're actually, it's a marriage between an Indian citizen and a refugee within Bharat which is recognized by an Indian law. But when an illegal migrant wants to marry a citizen, that is not the same as a refugee marrying a citizen. That's point number one. Two, since you're constantly being told equal treatment, we should be concerned about the people here. We should always think about the people here. What is my friend's position on the Uniform Civil Code? See, this obsession, no, no. It's not an obsession. It's a legitimate question. No, no, no, no. See, jumping. It is a matter of the constitutional. It's a matter of the constitutional. I raised a question on the point of law. You did not ask one. Mr. Anas, let's not say the goal post. He's asked you a valid question. We've got 20 seconds. I'm asking you. The constitution itself says we should give up, give ourselves a Uniform Civil Code, the Supreme Court itself. No, it is part of DPSP. It is not part of fundamental rights. First, let me realize my fundamental rights. That is the priority. Sir, it is an objective of the constitution of India. No, no, fundamental rights are the priority. First, give me that. Sir, it is a directive principle. You aspire towards that. The state aspires for that. It is an ideal that we must aspire to as the constitution also upholds many other ideals to aspire to. No, not that. You won't give me time to respond. Please, go ahead. One minute. You haven't even raised your question. What will I respond to? No, I've asked you. I said, how are you saying that this is a... See, UCC is part of DPSP. I am fighting for fundamental rights right now. I don't have food right now. There are so many people in this country who don't have anything to eat. So, it's okay if exceptions are made for certain communities. Exactly. Those exceptions are expected of religious leaders. And UCC able to oppose anybody else who is being actually affected in Pakistan. That's because 12, which is part of fundamental right, protects my personal right. Okay, gentlemen, you know, I didn't anticipate such passion, but we find that... Look, at least debate is alive in this country. So, tell all those people out there that we can debate without fear of favor even the trickiest issues in India today. I'll leave it at this. Thank you very much. That's right, Rahul. And that's what makes it such a strong democracy. Rahul Sushankar there and our guest. Thank you so much. It's Jayasai Deepak and Anas Tanbir. That was indeed a very insightful and a spirited debate, an amazing array of perspectives that we just heard on a very crucial issue, as we've all seen how the Citizenship Amendment Act has sparked a massive political furore recently. Okay, let's move on. Let's shift tracks now. Technological advances combined with fairly dramatic economic and social changes are also creating conditions for the emergence of new forms of money and credits. Ladies and gentlemen, central banks are rolling up their sleeves. They're also familiarizing themselves with these bits and bytes of digital money. So, what lies ahead? Well, that's the big question that we would be finding answers to in our next conversation. Let's listen in from Ryan McNenry, who's the CEO for Visa Inc. on the evolving money and payment trends. McNenry, in fact, is going to be in conversation with managing editor CNBC, Shereen Ban for our next session, which is titled Money Moves at a Fast Click. Please welcome our next guest. Let's have a huge round of applause, ladies and gentlemen. It will be wonderful to hear from you. Welcome, Ryan. Welcome, Shereen. Thank you so much. Well, it's great to be back on stage here in conversation with a global CEO who joins us here at the Rising Bharat Summit. Ryan, thank you so much for being here with us at the summit. We truly appreciate your time here. I know that you're here in India on a very short visit, so it means a lot to our star that you've made time for us here. For the benefit of our audience here in this room as well as those who are watching, just to give you a sense of the footprint that Visa occupies, in FY23, the Visa network enabled $15 trillion in total volume and 276 billion transactions. They operate across 200 countries, and of course, India is a strategic market for Visa. And here's why outside of their home base, which is the U.S., India is the second largest employee base for Visa. So, Ryan, it's great to get your insights on why you're bullish on India and what gives you confidence about the India digital story. Let's start with your visit to Mumbai. I believe you had quite the experience of using your digital payment system to buy some varapal on the streets. I did. It's an honor to be here looking forward to the discussion. And it's been a great trip. This is my first trip back to India since I assumed my new role as CEO of the company, and there's so much happening here. And so I'm here to learn. When I was in Mumbai, I was meeting with our partners and our clients, big banks, small banks, fintechs, big techs. I met with our employees who have lots of ideas on things that we can be doing better to help them in the market. And I got out and walked around. Soundboxes, QR codes, coffee shops. They wanted me to experience what's really happening here so that when we're back helping the team here in India, we really understand it. It was quite an experience. Did you expect it to be as smooth as it turned out to be? I had been told that it was smooth, but until you actually, you know, scan the QR code and see how quick it works, and you hear the sound box and the words that come out of it, and you see how that's helping the person who's running the small booth. It's very impressive. Speaking of impressive, let's talk about the UPI moment in India, and that's been the big sort of event. It's pre-UPI and post-UPI. That's how the digital payment network is being seen in India. Do you see UPI as competition or do you see UPI as a collaborator? Well, first let me say, I think what's happened with UPI in India is nothing short of remarkable. I think it has accelerated financial inclusion in this country by more than a decade. The speed, the growth, the adoption, the user experiences that I was talking about, they're nothing short of remarkable. We see it as an opportunity for Visa. I believe that we can help build on the financial inclusion that has happened as a result of UPI and help turn that into financial empowerment, help work with the banks in India, help work with the ecosystem in India to create new credit products, to help people grow up the credit ladder, help them build wealth, help empower them financially as a result of the great work that's happened with UPI in India. Given the fact that you believe that UPI presents itself as an opportunity and not necessarily merely as competition, what's the target that you've set for the India team? What's the plan in terms of incremental investments in terms of expansion? As I pointed out, you've got about 4,000 employees here working in India, largely sitting out of your Bengaluru spaces, your Bengaluru offices. What was all of this going to mean now as far as Visa's future expansion in India? First, I'm so proud of our team here. Our team in Bangaluru, our team in Mumbai, they are every day coming into work, serving our clients, serving our partners, and doing everything that they can do to not only help build new innovations for India, but increasingly to build products and services that we can export from India all around the world. We feel just so proud and so great about the team that we have here. I'll tell you, I leave India thinking I need to set the targets higher. Set the targets higher, not for just the investment that we make as a company, but also the results that we expect of our team here. So I'll definitely take that back from my trip. We have been in this country for 40 years. When we're thinking about the opportunities in this country, we're thinking about the next 40 years, and the next 40 years after that. Those are the time frames we're thinking about in terms of the investments that we're making in the country. Let's talk about the next five years, not the next 40 years, because we don't know what's going to happen in the next 40 years. Over the next five years, in terms of the opportunities that you spoke of and in terms of focus areas that you intend to double down on, remittances, cross-border, how is Visa going to operate in those spaces? How do you intend to leverage the advantages there? First of all, let me just step back for all of the success that you and I have been talking about with the digitization of payments in India. There's still more than a trillion dollars in cash. So we're not a cashless economy by any means. So we still have an opportunity to partner and to work to help digitize that cash. But then building on the consumer payments that you and I make every day, there's enormous opportunities in B2B payments, in government payments. There's an enormous opportunity in transit systems. We've been involved in more than 750 transit systems around the world, helping them operate more efficiently by digitizing the payments. And then, as you said, we see remittances as a tremendous opportunity. We've built out a platform, we call it VisaDirect, where we have 8.5 billion endpoints, cards, accounts, digital wallets, all around the world. And what we're doing is we're putting that platform to work to make remittances in and out of India and all over the world, but this is the biggest corridor for remittances in the world. Make them more transparent, make them faster, make them cheaper, make it a better user experience for both the sender and the receiver. And we think that's a tremendous opportunity for us to continue to help and add value here in India. You talked about the fact that cash continues to be a significant part of the economy. While digitization has, of course, grown as well. But you know, just before the UPI actually took over and took off quite literally, the view was that this could potentially mean the death of credit cards. That was the expectation. It hasn't quite turned out that way. But how do you see the credit card space evolving in terms of form factors, in terms of features, in terms of innovation? What do you see as the next wave of disruption to the credit card itself? Now, what we've seen around the world is users choose to pay with credit in different ways. Sometimes it's a card, sometimes it's a plastic card, sometimes it's a metal card, but increasingly it's a digital tokenized incarnation of the card. That can be on your phone or different form factors. So our strategy the whole time has been not to be wed to a card per se. In many ways we've unbundled credit from what we all think of as the legacy card and we've embedded that credit in the user experiences that people have as they're working their way through their digital experiences or as we were talking about earlier in the physical world. And increasingly the physical world and digital world are blending. So we very much have unbundled those capabilities and we do think that there's a lot we can bring to India in terms of innovative products and services in credit specifically that we've seen in different parts of the world. In many ways the credit product itself has melded and evolved in ways that it's embedded in people's lives in ways that it almost becomes invisible. And that's when you start to really empower that purchasing power in a way that's great for small businesses and merchants. You talked about financial empowerment and you also brought up the issue of the credit gaps and the credit gaps exist in many spaces in different degrees. What will be the focus as far as bridging the credit gaps specifically from an Indian consumer or an Indian market's perspective? Bringing new solutions to help underwrite near prime credit, new to credit, young credit customers, working with banks to provide different types of line management services, different types of ways to segment credit and make them applicable in certain use cases. All of this type of innovation is happening around the world and I think is going to be a great opportunity to build on, as we were saying earlier, the momentum that's happened with UPI. And in five years to come back to the question from a few moments ago, maybe we don't even call it a credit card per se, maybe we call it visa credit or maybe we call it... Who knows what we call it? The word card may drop from our lexicon in India given the enormous progress that's happened here but we view our role as someone who can help power that innovation for banks across India. You're talking about innovation, so we can't not talk about what's happening as far as the world of AI is concerned and visa, for those of you who might not be aware, has decided to put together a war chest of $100 million to look at nurturing AI across different startups. Take me through the idea behind that, what you intend to do, is that going to be a focus area for you here in India as well? Yeah, sure. I'll talk about that specifically and then more broadly how we're thinking about generative AI. That idea specifically came from a set of experiences where we were looking for companies that were using generative AI to create new commerce experiences and we weren't able to find a lot of them. We wanted to go find them and nurture them and we have a program we call FinTrick FastTrack, bring them on to the Visa platform and so we said why don't we put together an investment fund so that we can help go find some of those entrepreneurs, those people that are dreaming big about how they could use generative AI to transform commerce and why don't we invest in them and so that's where we started on that journey. If I back up, we're big believers in the power of AI. We've been a leader in AI for 30 years using predictive AI to build our products and services, secure our network. We've been very aggressive in adopting generative AI in our company. We've made all of the tools and co-pilots available to our employees around the world. How much have you invested on that side? I couldn't give you the number, but if you went and talked to any one of our employees in India around the world and said tell me about what Ryan's been talking to you about. Generative AI. He's honest. Every team in Visa is expected to have a roadmap and a plan of how they're using generative AI to make their function more effective and more efficient. Finance, HR, products, obviously technology. So the use case at this point in time, efficiency and effectiveness, right? It is. It's about efficiency and effectiveness, but I think the real magic. The real magic is when we're able to bring new products to market using generative AI. I'll give you an example. We have been using generative AI to take our transaction data and create what we call synthetic data sets. And what we're able to do with synthetic data sets is take the same fraud risk and cyber capabilities we've used on the Visa network and use those to identify fraud on real-time payment networks. And we found that we can identify scams and fraud using the same data and analytics from our experience in card payments and apply that to account-to-account payments and real-time payments all because we have generative AI to create these new synthetic data sets and these new analytic tools. You know, let me just stick with that. Given what's happening in the Indian fintech space specifically on the start-up side, is that something that you're looking at closely? Does anything excite you there? Are we likely to see you fund anything on that side? Yeah. First of all, what's happened in India in the fintech and start-up space is extraordinary. We partner with most, if not all of them, to help them. We've invested in several of them here in India. I'm looking for more generative AI commerce companies, so if you find any as part of this conference, please let me know. We're looking to invest in them. That's the pitch. So if anyone's watching this, the global CEO of Visa is on the lookout for Indian fintechs who are focused on the generative AI space. Hopefully you'll start to get a lot of people writing into you, Ryan. That would make me extremely happy. Well, you know, since we're talking about fintech, let's talk about regulation in India. The regulator has done many things, including data localization, which was brought in a couple of years ago. Of course, all of you need to be compliant with that. There have been some recent changes, four credit cards specifically. How do you see the regulatory environment in India at this point in time? Is it challenging? Does it add friction? Or is it making you feel that it is securing the digital payment ecosystem? Of course it can be challenging at times, but it makes us better. That's how we view it. We want to be in compliance as effective and faster than any company in our space. We want the regulators to look at Visa as a leader. And we lean into this regulation because we do believe that it makes us better. I also give enormous credit to the regulators in India for leading the charge on innovations that not only make the system more safe, they help drive commerce. I would use tokenizations, an example. I think the regulators in India leaned into tokenization. They mandated tokenization. And as a result, e-commerce is going to be adopted even faster in India. It's going to be safer. It's going to be more secure. It's going to have higher authorization rates. So you're saying that the regulator in India was ahead of the curve on tokenization? Absolutely. They were an innovator in that way of leading, as far as all the regulators in the world, by mandating tokenization for e-commerce in India. So what would you say are the key risks today? What keeps you up at night? You were talking about cyber safety, cyber security, and in general what we've seen with the momentum of digital transactions going up, that we've also seen the risks of digital fraud, of cyber risks and so on and so forth. How are you within Visa trying to fortify yourself and how much of this is a risk that you're factoring in? It's an enormous priority for us. I think it's a very big risk. You know, at the core of digital payments, at the core of the success of digital payments is trust. All of us are very comfortable engaging in digital payments, whether it's with a Visa card or anything else, because we trust that it's going to be safe. And we take the responsibility to safeguard our network and ensure that it's the safest and most reliable network very seriously. As you might expect, we're a very big target for the bad guys that are out there. We have somewhere between... Average, how much do you get attacked in a day? I was just about to say, we are attacked somewhere between 400 and 500 million times a month. Attack vectors that come from all different parts of the world. I'll give you another example. We have about 30,000 employees. Every month we stop 20 million emails that were meant to be sent to our employees and we stop them before they get to them. All of those are from bad actors. They're trying to trick our employees into doing something that they otherwise shouldn't do. So we take that very seriously. We've invested billions in our cybersecurity protections. We have 1,000 people that come into work every day, and all they do is focus on our cyber protections. But beyond that, we're also creating tools for our bank partners to help them stop fraud. Every year through those tools, we stop more than $30 billion of fraud that otherwise would have been perpetrated on our network and with our customers' clients. So this is going to be an arms race. It's going to continue to be an arms race, and we are going to invest and we're going to work as hard as we possibly can to stay one step, if not five steps ahead of the bad actors to ensure that the network is as safe and secure as it possibly can be. You know, when you say that this is going to be an arms race, explain to me how you're going about it. I mean, putting money at the problem or throwing money at the problem is just one aspect. But how are you thinking about this strategically? And more importantly, how do you look at this from your partner's perspective as well who may not have the ability to throw money at the problem? Well, first on the second part of your question, this is something I've been talking to everyone that I've had a chance to meet with while I've been in India. We want to protect our network, the Visa network, with all of the tools and security that I mentioned, but we also want to make these tools available to all networks. We want to make our services available to any network that's out there because, let's be honest, all of the network of networks that we operate in across the world, and on this particular topic, we're all in this together. We need to be investing in the safety and security of digital payments so that everybody across the world continues to trust... So Mastercard and you are aligned on this one? I think cyber protection is existential for digital payments, and so I want to make sure that we're making our products, our services, our talent, we're sharing information, we're sharing our services to anyone that's interested in putting them to work, and we feel like we have great products and services that we can be helpful with. I want to go back to something that you said right at the very beginning. You said that you're here in India to learn, and in the context of the digital public infrastructure and what India's been able to do with the India stack, it was a big part of our pitch to the world through our G20 presidency as well. What do you see as the opportunities to export the India stack to the world? First of all, I think the world is paying very close attention to it. I think there is a meaningful opportunity to export the stack. I mean, you just go through it. Aadhar, UPI, ONDC, DigiLocker, I mean, all of these elements of the stack are extraordinarily impressive. I was saying to my team the other day, I think if you look at what India has done, and you look at the product roadmap, I would put it up against any of the best big tech players on the planet. Not just the roadmap itself, the clarity, the execution, the transparency, the length of the roadmap. It is remarkable execution, and I think there is a big opportunity to export the stack far beyond India. What do you think it will take for us to be able to do that in terms of prioritization, in terms of strategic choices? You know, if you were to sort of put together a roadmap of how we take it forward, what would that entail? I think at a foundation is public-private partnership. We view ourselves as a potential partner, and I think what's proven, if you look over time, with the adoption of similar types of things around the world, it's the public-private partnership at work. And I think this is an area where India's leadership, as you said, coming out of the G20, making the world more aware of the stack and the impact that it's had is a big first step. And I think engaging with governments, engaging with the private sector companies like Visa, and through public-private partnership, that should be a great way to expand those things. Let's talk about what's happening globally as well, Ryan. Clearly, you're confident about the India growth story, the macros as well as what's happening as far as the digital side of the story is concerned. But global, the macros continue to look challenging at this point in time. I think it's a great question of a cut coming in from the Fed in June, perhaps less likely today. Japan's just raised interest rates. What are consumer trends telling you in terms of spending power, spending capacity, and the possibility of the current trends holding up? Despite everything that you said, the consumer spending around the world remains resilient. It remains stable. When you look at the year-over-year growth in transactions or payment volume across our network and in most of the countries in which we operate, it's been relatively stable. That's some really good news, despite everything you said. Now, of course, higher interest rates are taking a dent out of consumers. Consumers are changing. They're purchasing patterns. What are they buying? What are they spending most of their money on today? Well, it's actually coming now having with COVID a couple of years in the rearview mirror. We've rebalanced pretty close to where we were in the mix of goods and services pre-COVID with a bit more shift toward services, travel, entertainment, Taylor Swift concerts, things like that. That's a whole other economy, isn't it? The Taylor Swift economy is a whole other economy. It's incredible, isn't it? It's incredible. Going back to your first question, the consumer remains resilient. Listen, there's pockets around the world. In some markets where, for example, you've got more variable rate mortgages. Australia is a good example. Hays a good example. Consumers are having to spend more of their discretionary spending or non-discretionary spending on mortgages, and we see that coming out of spending. But on the other side, we see travel in and out of China picking up. We see travel into the United States picking up. So international travel is very much still on the rebound. So overall stable with some puts and takes in different places. You talked about regional differences in the way that resilience is showing up, and you're on your way out of India, you're going to be headed into China. So let's address that issue as well. The recovery is underway, but patchy. There are concerns on what is happening as far as the real estate sector in China is concerned and whether that poses a systemic risk. How do you see China at this point in time, both in terms of recovery, as well as in terms of consumer confidence? Yeah, in terms of China, again, we think about it in five, ten year, 15 year increments. There's no question that, you know, the Chinese economy is going through some bumps right now, but there too, we view it as our role to be as helpful as we possibly can to invest in the tools and the capabilities to help the banks and the broader economy do well. And, you know, China is a very large economy with a lot of power, and I think when you think five, ten, and 15 years out, it's going to be a big opportunity as well. So as a global CEO, what do you map on your dashboard? I mean, outside of what's happening inside a visa, the other factors that you have on your dashboard is potential risks or potential opportunities today. Geopolitics, of course, emerged as one of the big concerns, given just the volatile state of play. But, you know, what are you looking at? What are the various factors that you're looking at? Yeah, I mean, geopolitics is always an issue. You and I were talking beforehand about the enormous number of elections that are happening this year. So from that, there's going to be change. There's always change. But, you know, I'm very optimistic, very optimistic of the opportunities around the world. You know, coming out of the elections, I think there's enormous kind of road in front of us, and I'm hopeful that the economy can continue to have the great success that it has, and, you know, hopefully we can be a part of that. You know, the other thing that I spend a lot of time on is consumer preferences, consumer trends. What are we hearing from buyers and sellers around the world? What do they need? What are the technologies that are changing, you know, how they're running their businesses or they're engaging in their lives? By the way, Generative AI, another topic we could talk about that's helpful is how I think it's going to change shopping, which I think it'll have a very big impact on that. More experiential? Yeah, I think, you know, it's just going to make it easier. You know, if you think about shopping, especially for someone like myself who's neither that good at it nor likes it that much, it's very inefficient. That makes the two of us. It's relatively inefficient. And so I think Generative AI, all of us are going to have co-pilots in terms of shopping. We're going to have much more curated experiences. We're going to have much more curated payment experiences that come with it. And that's just going to make a much better experience. I also think, I have a personal thesis that Generative AI could be a very empowering capability for small businesses around the world. It starts to give them access to the capabilities that only the largest retailers have had, whether it's product reviews or recommendation engines or things like that become unbundled and available to small and medium businesses around the world. I think Generative AI could be a very leveling force in the commerce space. You preempted what I was going to say. So you actually believe the Generative AI will level the playing field, not make the gaps wider? I believe it will. That's my personal thesis. I think it'll, for the largest retailers and the largest platforms, will certainly help optimize what they do and, again, make a more enjoyable experience for all of us as shoppers. But I think it has the power to level the playing field. It has the power to democratize a lot of the commerce capabilities that have been bundled in to some of the largest platforms and make them available. And for you and I as shoppers, I think we're going to have much more broad views to inventory that's available in small and medium businesses either in the cities that we live in or around us. So who would you consider as competition today in a fintech world, in an AI-led world, where every phone company wants to be a fintech player? Every big tech company wants to be in the banking business as well in some shape or form or in the payments business. What does the competitive landscape look like today for you? I'll tell you. Over the last several years, the early narrative on fintechs was they're going to be competitive for the payment system. We saw it differently. We saw all of these players as potential partners. And that's very much how we see it today. Fintech, big tech, little tech, small tech, we view all of them as potential partners for Visa and we view it as an opportunity to put our network to work to help them grow their business and ultimately meet whatever goal it is that they've set out for themselves. And I think if you go today, for example, down in Silicon Valley near where I live and you talk to fintechs, you'll find most, if not all of them, Visa has become their most important partner. And so that's how we see the world. We see the world in terms of partners and people that we can put our network to work, open our network, make it available and help them achieve whatever it is the goal that they're trying to achieve. You said that you see fintechs as potential collaborators, potential partners as well. You also said earlier on that perhaps in the future at some point, you may just drop card altogether as part of the sort of proposition that you offer to consumers because, you know, you're digital in many ways. So what do you see Visa being? I mean, in terms of your core DNA, how do you see that core DNA evolving and changing given the many changes that we are seeing in the ecosystem? What could that potentially mean over the next five to ten years? Yeah, at our core we're a network. We're the safest, most secure, most reliable, largest payment network on the planet with the largest reach. And the way we're evolving that is building out from not just being the Visa network to being a network of networks. And that's what we want to do. We want to be able to enable money movement across all networks around the world. You know, we were talking about remittances and that Visa Direct Platform that I mentioned to you earlier, we move money across ACH systems. We move money across RTP systems. We move money across other card networks. Again, all in service of giving our clients the biggest, most reliable, safest, most secure money movement platform on the planet. So that's how we think about our role. And we very much are an open network. We want anyone to build on us. Whatever they can dream up, the products, the services that they can dream up, they know that they have the Visa network available to them to put their products and services to work. So do you see India then being an incubator of some of the innovations that you would hope for Visa to focus on in the future? In Innovator and Exporter, there's no question about it. I mean, the FinTech community here has had a very profound impact on Visa. And, you know, we've collaborated. We've worked with them. How has it changed Visa? How have Indian FinTechs changed Visa? Yeah, Indian FinTechs have opened up our mind to the power of QR payments. So now, we're looking at other markets around the world where QR might be the form factor that users prefer, buyers and sellers. So, well, okay, we don't need cards. We'll use QR, and that'll be the form factor that will then allow people to tap into the Visa network as an example. And that very much came from the inspiration of what we've seen happen here in India. So, you know, speaking of inspiration, again, Ryan, of course, has been with Visa for about 11 years now. He has held many jobs before that, but has been CEO for almost a year now. Feb is when you completed a year as CEO. You know, as CEO, managing people is, of course, an important aspect of your job as well. And especially when you manage people across 200 different countries, it's a complex job as well. How do you make sure that there is an alignment of purpose, that there is an alignment of vision as you operate across 200 different jurisdictions? Yeah, in terms of alignment, I find it's about clear communication, always on communication, and just being able to listen and learn from our employees around the world about what's working well, what's not working well, and how we can help them do their jobs better. You know, we, when I get back to the U.S. week or so, we're going to move into a new office. We actually call it our Market Support Center, not corporate headquarters. We call it the Visa Market Support Center. So if you ever come visit, you'll see that on the building. And I want people, when they come into work every day, to remember that we are serving our markets around the world. We're serving India. We're serving Brazil. We're serving England and Germany. And I want our employees to just remember that is our job every day, to listen, to learn, and to ultimately be in service of our markets around the world so that they can serve their clients and they can do the great things that they need to do here in India and around the world. So is there a Ryan-specific way of A, getting feedback and B, incorporating feedback into driving change? Yeah, I try to be as approachable and open as I possibly can. I, for example, I just, actually on the flight over here, I just launched a new internal social media platform. Think about it that way. And I regularly am now going to start posting what I'm thinking, my ideas. I actually posted some pictures from my experience in Mumbai to all of our employees around the world. I showed them how the sound box works. I showed them how the QR code works. And I encourage them to ask me questions on the platform, give me feedback on the platform. Sometimes they'll just comment on, you know, did you drink the coffee that you bought? But I've started to get really good feedback on that channel even just a weekend. So I just try to be as approachable as I possibly can, as open as I possibly can to our team members to ask them for feedback, to encourage them for feedback, to reward them when they give me feedback, and then do our best to incorporate that into our strategy, what we're doing, and then back to your original question, just be as clear and concise in communicating that out to our team as I possibly can be. So since you said that one of the things that you focus on is being clear and concise in communicating your message to the team, I'm going to end by asking you the message that you're sending or leaving your India team with. You said that you're going to probably up the targets given the opportunities and the potential that you see in India. What's the message to the India team on how they should leverage the India opportunity? India is an enormous opportunity. India has had incredible success. We are here to partner. We want to be an integral part of the India story. We want to put the visa network to work in every way that we possibly can to help accelerate the progress in India, help move from financial inclusion to financial empowerment, and I'm going to give our team all the resources they need to do that. And they haven't given you a number just yet. They've given me some numbers. Are you going to do better than the numbers that they've left you with? We're going to give them everything they need to be successful. Well, Ryan, thank you very, very much for joining us here. Ladies and gentlemen, the global CEO of Visa on their outlook for India, as well as the opportunities that it presents for the visa network. I appreciate you joining us. We hope you have a fabulous trip back and we look forward to seeing you back in India soon. It was fun talking to you. Thank you very much. Thank you so much. Thank you, Ryan. Thank you once again, Ryan. Thank you, Shireen. That was indeed a fascinating conversation. Ladies and gentlemen, just a quick reminder. We do have a very exciting evening lined up for you. So don't forget to be here. Just a quick reminder. We have four shining stars of India for Grammy Award winners amongst us. It's going to be an unforgettable performance. It's going to be a very exciting night. I hope you all are enjoying. We've had an array of discussions. We have had also a very diverse mix of guests since the morning. We started off with Nitin Gadkari. We started off with Ashwini Vaishnav and of course we did have a lot of business talks and on the economy but most importantly on religion. A burning topic these days and of course a very contentious Citizenship Amendment Act. We are just setting up for our next session. It's going to be also a very interesting one. We have a very prominent and a popular BJP politician who's going to be joining us for now. A quick reminder to kindly stay seated and not leave your seats because the next session is going to begin in a short while from now. We're just waiting for our next speaker to come as well. That was Mr. Mech Inani who was in conversation with Shereem. He is of course the CEO of Visa Inc. and he was there with us all the way from the US and sharing his thoughts. Well, we have had some power packed sessions. I hope you all have enjoyed yourselves thus far. We have a scintillating performance that has been lined up as well and I personally am looking forward to that as well. We have a very renowned and noticed musician and artist who will be here gracing the stage in a short while from now. So be seated. We will just begin a session in a short while from now. Back day hasn't it? Since the morning, I have been really excited listening to all those stimulating conversations and also the discussions, some very fiery ones as well. My colleague Toya in fact has also been catching a lot of guests on the other side of social media. Toya, what is the kind of response that you're getting? How is it going for you and for all of our guests who have come today? So on the social media side over there we're asking softer questions. So we're asking some of the politicians for example we've had on stage who your favourite authors are what's the music you've liked when you've grown up because it's always exciting to discover that side too and you can only do that really on the social media platform. Obviously these areas are for the more serious conversations. But ladies and gentlemen as we wait for our next speaker we're going to come to each of you. I don't obviously mean each of you. We'll try to come to whichever one of you can. I want to ask each of you which moments here have stood out to you? What's left a question in your mind? So is there something you've heard any of the policy makers the politicians say up there that have actually left questions in your mind? Things you want answered because the panel doesn't just end today. Of course we're going to see Spiti Rani Ji right now. It's going to carry into tomorrow also. Any questions you bring up today we'll also ask on the softer side on the social media side in just a few minutes from now. Okay, any hands ladies and gentlemen I'll come to... Oh alright we've got one lady very ready. I like the spirit. Thank you so much. So basically going with the spirit of the show I feel it has been really lovely flow of actions right here and there were many standing I guess landmark moments of the conferences you know moving away from yellow journalism and getting to the real journalism is a very thin line between real and the real world today and you guys have done amazing what I really wish to ask upon to the next fleet of panel which is coming across today and you know tomorrow would be India is already on the global map we have been marketing a lot on many things and we always say to all claims we want to be this truly an economy and that what next for the small businesses out there that is what is in store for the small businesses out there because a lot of big fishers which are you know right there but I want to know what's in store You've touched on journalism on small businesses All right we've actually we've run out of time with this question and I'm excited to tell you we have our next speaker coming in in just a few minutes we're going to keep doing this so please keep questions on your mind we'll see you in just a few minutes But that was wonderful man thank you so much and we of course will take your views we would also ask those questions and we are ready for our next session ladies and gentlemen our next session is a conversation with one of India's most articulate and powerful leaders in fact union minister for women and child development and minority affairs minister Shreemati Smriti Zubin Irani has seen her careers political innings take off ever since the 2014 elections where she took the fight to Rahul Gandhi in Amiti but most importantly when she won that historic context in 2019 she was given charge of the high profile HRD ministry later the information and broadcasting ministry textiles and now the women and child development and minority affairs it's such a pleasure to have you ma'am please welcome Shreemati Smriti Zubin Irani the honorable minister of women and child development and minority affairs in conversation with my colleague Alumaz Namaste everybody are you all awake it's miss Smriti Zubin Irani in the house she deserves a bigger round of applause and welcome so let's just thank you very much for gracing rising Bharat we're talking about a vixit Bharat at 2047 Smriti ji I just want to read out something which has just come fresh off the coals if I may say that this is what is being said in a time of high unemployment rising prices corruption and oppression Rahul Gandhi is the only hope for 1.35 billion Indians dedicated to bringing justice to every corner of our country and is the only leader who can end this regime of fascism and dictatorship hashtag only hope Rahul Gandhi this is by Mr. P. Chidambra your thoughts ma'am I think the snigas in the audience speak louder than any statement that I can give but I also believe that the destiny of a nation cannot be decided by a man who is scared of being defeated in Amiti so a leader is one who does not leave his fleet behind the gentleman hashtag is somebody that I had the privilege of contesting against in 2019 victory and loss are a part of electoral politics but what defines a leader is that if they have grit enough courage enough to stand with their own beliefs amongst their own people and I don't think somebody who escapes and is feared of being conquered electorally is somebody who can lead a nation to better prospects so I understand the compulsions of Mr. Chidambra but I also recognize that the voter at large respects the reality of a rising Bharat but he is saying that he will defeat Shakti see, he has kept himself in a clarified position he has said that he is not writing that Shakti which has nothing to do with religion but in today's time of expansive communication and media his words are not hidden in any country this is not the first time that he has given time against my religion against Hinduism but I believe that if he really is secular then he should not fight in the form of religion he should fight in the form of issues the whole nation heard him from a clear view when he said that Shakti whose religion is Hinduism he wants to fight with that so I want to say as a Hindu that till date the one who has made my religion and my heritage what has happened to him if someone read Ramayana Gita Mahabharata he will get an idea of this but if someone tells us that we could not understand his words and maybe his writing was in the context of politics not in the context of religion so I want to know which Shakti he wants to fight Prime Minister Modi in this country did a special writing of four Shaktis one is female Shakti the other is young Shakti the third is Krishi's Shakti and the fourth is that poor who is now moving towards Uttan so which of these four Shaktis do you want to fight with Raul Gandhi? he is talking about that Shakti which controls ED controls EVM see in ancient Hindi there is a saying of a thief's beard now the one whose beard is full of tins that is also seen as a thief but the one who who has apologized in the Supreme Court for using the word he does not give false proof he is talking about electoral bonds he is saying that BJP is a Ugahi party now Mr. Rupeshwari has said on a cyber-genic that the party of 303 saints through electoral bonds transparently through the banking system got a bond of 6000 crores but the one whose power is not even of 200 they got 14000 crore rupees so my turn is that which Ugahi party has left Raul Gandhi that he has got 14000 crore rupees you people react it is not like they will react during elections they will not worry this this one more is not only in India it is also in the world that India in the current government is moving towards an electoral autocracy if we are talking about smashing a status quo then how would you respond to this that we are gradually becoming an electoral autocracy i.e. we are born but everything is being progressed the country which has thrown the government 940 million voters will give their vote with an authentic identification I have not heard such a huge amount of that electorate to say that you are wiser than the voter just because you are an analyst overseas is one of the biggest hypocritical positions taken to analyze our democracy especially from countries which don't have such a large voting populace what they cannot fathom is why the average Indian today is buoyant about their future prospects what they cannot possibly come to terms with is why India and Indians are so blatant about their ambitions and their pursuits of excellence and possibly that is why this is the same voice which when covid came said how will India survive with 6 lakh plus villages how will Indians eat how will Indians receive pharmacological support how will Indians get a vaccine I think the metal of a country and a leadership is best tested when your back is to the wall India not only made vaccines delivered it to 1.4 billion citizens it also gave vaccines and pharmaceuticals to 160 countries India is the only nation in the world today that at the doorstep of 800 million citizens consistently for the past 2 and half years is delivering free ration every month no country in the world today has an expansive health covered system like Ayushman Bharat where 100 million people receive 5 lakh rupees worth of medical support across 28,000 hospitals with not a single human being who's covered missing a treatment in any hospital in the country so I think that those people who sit in these analogies and analysis possibly cannot come to terms with the fact that India has a functional government which is tested every time we go to polls and that you have a leadership that responds to the people's needs and people who appreciate that leader I also believe Anand when we go to vote for too long and for too many years in our country we have seen people vote on the basis of an emotion Narendra Modi and before him Atal Bihari Vajpayee I'm very proud but two leaders are two leaders who said judge us by our development performance what you see on the opposite are people who are blind and depending on negative rhetoric but Modi is the only leader right now who has given you a national ambition remember after the independence freedom movement we've never had a national ambition in a clarion called like 2047 so while Modi says for 2047 we need to create more opportunities for education for enterprise for skill for manufacturing what is Rahul Gandhi of you division on the basis of religion division on the basis of class division on the basis of caste while Modi says let's talk about Atman Irbha Bharat what is Atman Irbha Bharat it is economic sovereignty of this country what does Rahul Gandhi tell you Atman Irbha Bharat while Modi says let's pull 25 crore Indians out of poverty and today the world poverty clock forget anybody else says that less than 3% people in India now live under the line of poverty what does Rahul Gandhi tell you he glorifies poverty he glorifies a martyrdom at the order of lost opportunities so why should any informed voter then vote for Rahul Gandhi or an alliance which is barely together but he says that voters do vote for us but the life of the king is in EVM look the one who was born in the royal family the one who was born who was born in the royal family who was born in a tea house this is a political what kind of a illusion is that now they see the tea house king now as much as I have heard Rahul Gandhi as a survey general in many things he has given clarification I ask for clarification election commission of India repeatedly the survey general of the announcement come and test did Rahul Gandhi go once it is very easy to glorify but on whom are you glorifying on the planet are you glorifying on people's choice are you glorifying on election commission and do you think the entire universe is in this struggle to make Modi the prime minister this struggle is for voters because voters in the age of 10 have seen Modi complete every word if I consider where the 50 year old king of the family 15 year old Rahul Gandhi stayed in Satta Rubika ji there are 1,9,000 families in the last 5 years 4,000 families have got toilets in their life where their family is 50 years old only 4 people 16,000 people in the population of 25,000 this family could not give toilets and they are doubting on EVM Mr. Smriti ji you said that till the time of death this is your statement I will not let the Gandhi family win in Amethi and it seems to me that I have lost my pride but you will agree but but why this feeling this anger this change I am saying this because Rubika ji if you have seen 4,000 poor women in the dark in that area where the 50 year old king of the family you will be as angry as I am if you have seen 3,000 people in that area who used to be the prime minister in that area you will also be angry as I am if you have seen 4,000 people without a roof do you know where the 50 year old king of the family was sitting there for the past 10 years his mother was the prime minister his friend Mr. Akhilesh was in Uttar Pradesh do you know that Amit Shah came to the office of the collector the first CT scan machine was brought by the Modi the first dialysis center the first blood bank was brought by the Modi the first passport office was brought by the Modi why couldn't they make it they didn't want to because until people are in front of them they don't get votes you can imagine that this is the rule of the family that the poor have to serve the rich they were strong they were ordinary in the process they had the right to be in the policy they could have done it but they didn't do it but you will also believe that they had the right they had the right there was no option there was no option of tenacity and let me tell you Anand there is no easy fight when I went to fight for the first time in 2014 no one gave me a place to stay I had to stay in a room I was so scared of that family when I went there for the first time in 2014 then there there was no reason to stand there there was no word of love there was no word of fear there was no word of fear if you ever I have asked Gandhi Sharad Yadav Ji is not here ask him who has ever fought in Amethi Raj Mohan Gandhi Ji please take a look at the history people have been killed they have been shot on the candidate of Amethi please take a look at the history they have been shot so today someone seems to be on the hind side that Switri Rani must have done something that's why she got the vote 1,20,000 houses there was no electricity you will believe where there was a kingdom of 50 years there was no electricity in 60% of the houses in such areas for the first time there was no ordinary election so when you were told that you have fought there now you are told that somewhere you have made Amethi your house but in that also you are 5 years old yes that is Adal Ji's poetry I will not give up I write on the paper of time I erase it I sing a new song so if you have a politician who has such poems then it is possible for him to be a astrologer so I would like to ask you why did you send me Amethi? I liked it that I got my name in the whole party but I don't know anything Adal Ji are you confident that they will not come? it doesn't matter if you go and I am saying this I am very confident because it is not that they did not have any argument brothers and sisters and I keep the feeling of confidence because in 2020 there was a election where both of them were fighting with Amethi and then to that family in Uttar Pradesh there was a duty to fight and there are 5 seats in the 4 districts where both of them were fighting in the 4 districts the times of Congress were over in 2022 in 2019 the Congress Party was not alone Akhilesh Ji and Mayawati Ji were with them the three of them fought in front of me then there were about 4,300,000 votes near this gang if you look at the elections after the Congress in Amethi Lok Sabha Chetra in 2020 only 1,20,000 votes were left meaning between 2019 and 2020 3,00,000 votes were lost before them now imagine when in 2 or 3 years 3,00,000 votes were lost from 2022 to 2024 that is why when they came with the travel they didn't even do it they say it was a confusion because the alliance wasn't there I am aware that you said the leader is confused the alliance is confused the carter is confused there is no confusion in the country so you believe that the country has no confusion 370 plus let's do one thing leave all my doubts you can ask No, you can ask I am not sure who believes Rahul Gandhi is the hope for 1.3 billion people not even 1.4 billion let's do a show of hands we don't agree with Mr. P. Chidamram now tell me who is the king Janta K.V.M if you are afraid then don't be afraid I am afraid of Mr. P. Chidamram and Rahul Gandhi I am afraid of Mr. P. Chidamram that he won't come back in 7 months so that the loot doesn't go back to the looters I want to contextualize you with your permission when we say the lost decade of opportunity there is no such thing that there is a loss of only from 2004 to 2014 whenever in Congress if you look at their performance today we will talk about Mr. Modi when Mr. Atal was the Prime Minister his work if we talk about banking when he inherited the banking the NPA was about 16% or 17% when he left the office in 2004 the NPA was about 7% till that time in the state of Congress if you go then the NPA was 13% when Mr. Atal left and came to the UPA your agriculture sector was growing at 9% your service sector was growing at 7% your overall economic growth was 8% your advances in public sector banks were about 6 lakh crore rupees if you look at the UPA the UPA from 2004 to 2012 do you know how many advances it gave from the public sector banks? 39 lakh crores out of which 3.8 lakh crores were bad assets and never declared who built this factory? the country that is why you are saying their tradition to rob the country and the 10 years Mr. Modi is not taking money politics of revelation this whole family has been tested on its metal on its political performance and inputs and the best test I think for the country when covid came even this government is blamed for not revealing numbers statistics are not out statistics are out but statistics don't endear themselves to the opposition that's a different issue altogether they may not like the statistics they don't like the growth numbers why would they? they are fighting on a negative the allegation is that the growth numbers are dressed up yes there is growth but some of it is dressed up let's give me a small interjection 30 crore Mudra loans given to only women 8 crore loans given to youngsters first time entrepreneurs out of the 30 crore loans given to women NPA is less than 2.5% which means these loans got serviced business got done there was a profit that's why the loans got serviced so are those 30 crore women who got the loan who did the enterprise are they not employed? they are right 8 crore new entrepreneurs obviously they serviced their loans obviously they paid back so were they not employed 38 crores I have made you sit here with respect to your ministries so banks are right women and child care development and also the minority minister two aspects let's talk about malnourishment we still rank one of the highest in terms of malnourishment who is ranking us if you are a number cruncher there is a public data available on a tracker called portion tracker what is portion tracker track 75 million children below the age of 6 correct how do they track on WHO standards who does the third party evaluation the world bank whether the testing methodology is correct or not evidence is available today for 75 million children when did the congress last computed there was no such evidence available before the other aspect is of food security if 80 crore people were not being given the food security which is also being extended for the next two years you would still have a large you would still have a large number of people people should not get food is that your position you would still have a large number of people who would be struggling around the poverty line or would be going hungry everything is not as rosy as it is painted and I tell you why 13.5 crore Indians came out of multi-dimensional poverty only because of Modi's health initiatives what are those health initiatives primary being Ayushman Bharat Yojana for every Indian especially the poor who got 1, 2 and the booster dose free how much was it in the normal market if you went to buy the vaccine 600 bucks per shot so 1800 rupees let's say if you don't take the booster shot 1200 rupees in a family size of 4 people how much would that have been for a poor family second if you look only at the Ayushman Bharat numbers from October 2023 5 crore 70 lakh hospital admissions worth 70,000 crore rupees done do you compute the cost of the burden on the GDP if this health support was not given to these people for instance when we talk about sanitation we talk about 11 crore toilets built I will take you back to this very channel in the year 2010-12 this channel has carried a report about what 6% negative impact on India's GDP is a lack of sanitation so when Modi gives a sanitation facility it has a positive impact on the growth numbers when Modi gives Russian free to poor it not only helps them come out of multi-dimensional poverty it sustains them out of multi-dimensional poverty it also fires up rural consumption hence keeping industry and manufacturing alive Mr. Smriti Ji, this confidence you can say with confidence that it will be in numbers yes, so in Uttar Pradesh how many seats will you get from 80 I am not a yogendra Yadav or a psychologist or Rahul Gandhi I can assure you that what Modi has said is the luck of stones India is now 404 time is short last 30-15 seconds so we will tell you 5 words we don't know Anand Narasimhan Karan Johar look this is a drama from Karan Johar no, no, no, from entertainment Karan Johar is not a good friend but I will tell you okay you see your journalist friends all the eyebrows are going up so we will speak in front of you the first thought in your mind that you will end in one or two words or in one line so we will start okay Shakti Durga Rahul you should have told him that he was Smriti if you say that word then Maryada Vihin Modi the luck of power 370 400 and last last Smriti Ma ladies and gentlemen Smriti Irani lovely, a huge round of applause once again for Minister Smriti Irani at her oratorical best and also daring Rahul Gandhi thank you so much ma'am Anand Rubika thank you so much as well well she is known for a fine oratory Smriti Irani there also daring Rahul Gandhi to contest from his old battleground of a Metis clearly politics is heating ahead of the loks of our polls she also said that the Prime Minister is an emotion he is someone who has given a natural ambition to the people of the country that was Smriti Irani speaking to colleagues Anand and Rubina we have another very very interesting session coming up more on geopolitics foreign policy I request everyone to be kindly seated please we are just about to begin our next session for the evening so let's begin without further ado ladies and gentlemen it's a conversation that we are going to be having with a scholar and expert who is often described as one of the most influential realist of his generation he has also been one of the most famous critics of American foreign policy since the end of the Cold War his standoff thought which is sometimes described as quote-unquote defensive realism holds that the need for security and ultimately for survival makes states to be aggressive power maximizers states do not cooperate except during temporary alliances but constantly seek to diminish their competitors' power and to enhance their very own he has also spread no punches in arguing just why Ukraine crisis is the West's fault and why the United States and its European allies actually share most of the responsibility for the ongoing crisis please welcome John Joseph Mayor Schreimer political scientist international relations scholar and also the R. Wendell Harrison distinguished service professor at the University of Chicago he joins us in conversation with News 18's Palki Sharma for a session titled GeoCalculus Cracking the Code let's have a huge round of applause ladies and gentlemen for our esteemed guest thank you Palki over to you thank you and good evening to all of you we live in exciting but dangerous times geopolitically there are many wars and many internal conflicts that are going on across the world there are new alliances being forged and old ones being dismantled and in this context we are exploring a very important and complex question what is the driving force of decision making today is it realism, is it power is it morals or is it a mix of everything also where does India stand in this mix what role will India play in the looming conflicts of this century we look forward to exploring all of this with you Professor Mayor Scheimer welcome to Bharat Rising my first question to you is what would you call the current world order how would you describe it would you say it's still unipolar with America in the lead would you say it's truly multipolar how would you see this I believe that the world today is multipolar most of you in the audience came of age during the unipolar moment which ran from roughly 1991 when the Soviet Union collapsed up until about 2017 and the United States was of course the most powerful state on the planet by far during the unipolar moment but by 2017 roughly 2017 Vladimir Putin had rescued Russia from the dead and Russia was back as a great power and China because of all of the economic growth that had taken place during the 1990s and the first 17 years of the 21st century was also a great power so we're now in a system where there are three great powers the United States China and Russia what about India where do you see India standing in this and do you see India then as a bridging power trying to bridge different ideological camps or is India just tilting things in the direction that suited well I would say first of all India is hiring great power the two building blocks of power in the international system are population size and wealth you need a great deal of wealth and you need a lot of people to qualify as a great power the reason that China was not considered a great power until recently was because it didn't have the wealth it certainly had the population size what China now has is population size plus wealth what India has for sure is population size and it's growing wealthier and wealthier by the year but I think according to most accounts it is not yet reached the point where it qualifies as a great power nevertheless there is no question that India is a major power and it is in a very important way caught in between those three great powers because India has all sorts of potential problems with China mainly revolving around the border between those two countries India has very close relations with both Russia and the United States and from the American point of view that causes problems because the Americans don't want India to have good relations with Russia but of course from India's point of view it makes good sense to have good relations with Russia so relations between India and the United States have been somewhat testy they've been very good in terms of relations with Russia and the question of China is I think a looming problem for India but nevertheless the world that India operates in now is very complicated and India is going to have a very complicated task moving forward dealing with this world Is another way of looking at it this that India is best poised to make the most of this complicated situation because India can talk to and do business with all camps I think at some point India will have to make some hard choices I think the most interesting question is what happens between India China and the United States my sense is that China will continue to grow more powerful that it will build a potent blue water navy and it will try to project power into the Persian Gulf and it will therefore move through the Indian ocean and this will not make the Indians happy and will push the Americans and the Indians closer together In the event of a conflict between India and China do you think Russia will be forced to take a side I think if there were a conflict between India and China the Russians would do everything they could to sit on the fence and to not get committed the Russians have no interest in having bad relations with either China or India so if there was hopefully there will not be a conflict between India and China I think the Russians would do everything they could to stay far away You have said in the past that great powers will always seek hegemony or dominance over others you say that India is an aspiring great power when it does become a great power do you think I would do the same because any of the rhetoric that comes with these hegemonic tendencies My basic view of international politics is that the ideal situation is to be a hegemon in your region of the world and to make sure that there is no other hegemon on the planet and I basically argue that the United States is the only regional hegemon in the world it's a hegemon in the western hemisphere and the United States goes to great lengths to make sure that no other country dominates its region that's why we dominate the western hemisphere and that's why in the 20th century we played a key role in putting imperial Germany, imperial Japan Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union on the scrap heap of history the United States does not tolerate peer competitors at the same time I believe it makes eminently good sense for China to dominate Asia I think that as China grows more powerful economically it will try to dominate Asia and I think from China's point of view that makes good sense from America's point of view it does not make good sense and certainly from India's point of view it does not make good sense for China to dominate Asia just one final point I would argue that if India were to grow more powerful than China and the Chinese economy were to falter and India's economy was to take off and India looked like it could dominate Asia it would try to dominate Asia not because of Indian culture or Indian politics because that's just the way great power politics work the best way to survive in the international system would be really powerful interesting let's talk about the Ukraine war now and you've accused the west of poking the Russian bear it's been two years it's a frozen conflict no side is making much headway and Putin has won a record fifth term in power how do you see this war ending and what do you think the west should do should they stop military aid to Ukraine I believe that it's actually not a conflict I believe that the Russians are winning the war and that the Russians will end up with an ugly victory I believe the Russians now control about 20% of Ukrainian territory the balance of power has shifted decisively in Russia's favor in terms of both weaponry and manpower which are of great importance in a war of attrition like the one you see taking place in Ukraine and what I think is going to happen is that the Russians will end up conquering about 40% of Ukrainian territory I think they now have a next four oblasts plus the Crimea this is I want to underline that this is just my guess is that they will end up annexing four more oblasts and they will end up with roughly 40% of Ukrainian territory and what will be left is a dysfunctional rump state Ukraine in other words will be a dysfunctional rump state that the Russians will go to great lengths over time to make sure is politically and economically weak so that it cannot become a part of NATO but that I think is the likely outcome that's the military end that you're talking about what about the political end do you think Ukraine will end up joining the NATO no I think politically that the Russians will go to great lengths to make sure Ukraine doesn't join NATO and I think that the west will not bring a dysfunctional Ukraine into the alliance so I think that it will not Ukraine will not become part of NATO do you then think the west should stop the military aid to Ukraine because the American aid is tied in the congress and the Europeans are still struggling to find the money to fund this war yes this is a great question I believe that it is best for Ukraine and I want to underline that I believe it is best for Ukraine to now end the war to reach a settlement with the Russians and that means two things one Ukraine must sever all of its security relations with the west not just give up but severing NATO Ukraine should become a truly neutral state by severing its military or security ties with the west because Russia's principal concern is the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO that the Russians say to a person is an existential threat and they do not accept that so I think it's imperative that Ukraine become a neutral state and then the other thing is I think it's very important that the United States cut off all assistance to Ukraine and that the Europeans collectively provide aid economic aid not military aid to Ukraine moving forward until it gets on its feet to the question of the aid in a bit but you've said that Ukraine should become a neutral state and you've argued in the past against NATO expansion to the east the argument from the other side is that that's not a choice for Russia to make which side Ukraine should go to that's not something that Moscow gets to decide plus recent polls have said that close to 70% Ukrainians want to be part of the NATO so there is realism and then there is public opinion and in most leaders are swayed by public opinion so if Ukrainians want to join the NATO what should the leadership do? well the thing is that Ukraine for obvious reasons at this point would like to join NATO but this would be a fundamental mistake because if they join or try to join NATO their country is going to be wrecked if Ukraine had never made any attempt to join NATO Ukraine would be intact today Crimea would be part of Ukraine those 4.0 blasts that have been already next to Russia would still be part of Ukraine this war is all about NATO expansion into Ukraine if the west had not pushed hard to bring Ukraine into NATO starting in 2008 there would have been no major crisis in 2014 there would have been no war in 2022 and Ukraine would be intact so the argument that Ukraine has a right as a sovereign democracy to join NATO makes people feel good when they hear that because we love to talk about the rights in the west but the fact is talking about the right to join NATO and pushing Ukraine to join NATO has led to the destruction of NATO and in my personal opinion that is a horrendous disaster Russia's war has also led to the expansion of NATO in the last 2 years but you talked about the west stopping military aid America stopping military aid if and when that happens what message would it send to other players for instance Xi Jinping what would stop him from seeing a Ukraine in Taiwan there is this argument that if the United States cuts and runs or loses in Ukraine that this will have significant effects in East Asia because Xi Jinping will think that the United States will fight in East Asia if China behaves aggressively I do not believe for one second that Xi Jinping or the Chinese elite thinks that the United States for example will not fight over Taiwan Joe Biden has said on four separate occasions that the United States will fight for Taiwan there is no doubt in my mind that the United States will fight for Taiwan because Taiwan is of great strategic importance to the United States and the United States as I said earlier in my comments is determined to contain China so I do not believe that losing in Ukraine and I want to be clear here I do think the United States is in the process of losing in Ukraine I do not think there is a deterrent position in East Asia vis-a-vis the Chinese the thing is that we do not know for sure that Joe Biden will be around until the end of this year to make that decision vis-a-vis Taiwan having said that do you think that Xi Jinping is going to attack Taiwan in this decade? No I do not think that Xi Jinping is going to attack Taiwan anytime soon and there are reasons for that one of the main reasons is that for him or for China to attack Taiwan it has to cross a large body of water and amphibious operations are among the most difficult military operations you can ask an army to perform it is very difficult to cross a body of water as large as the Taiwan so the task that the Chinese have set for themselves if they decide to attack Taiwan would be a formidable one the second point is China has not fought a war since 1979 just think about that the United States of America is fighting wars all the time the United States has a highly primed military combat the Chinese military has not fought a war in a long time it's a rusty military and we know from watching how the Russians performed in Ukraine in the early stages of that war armies take time to get used to fighting wars to fighting battles you just don't take an army that hasn't fought a war in a long time and send it into battle and expect it to do well so what I'm telling you here is that the Chinese would have to perform an extremely difficult military task launching an amphibious operation across the Taiwan Strait number one and number two they don't have a highly tuned military that can perform that difficult task but the logic says the China will not attack but leaders do not always operate on logic and the region is a powder keg so there is always the possibility of conflict breaking out if that happens my question is what role do you see India playing there because India controls the entry to the Malacca Strait India has an agreement with the US to allow the aircraft to refuel at Indian bases do you think India will have a role and will it support America militarily in the conflict my sense is that if a conflict were to break out it would not break out over Taiwan for the reasons that I just stipulated I think the most dangerous area in East Asia is the South China Sea and I would not be surprised if a conflict broke out between the Philippines and China and the United States got dragged in which then goes to your question what India do I think that India in that event would provide indirect support for the United States I don't think that India would get involved in the fighting I think if conflict broke out at a low level the Americans would pretty much handle it by themselves maybe with the Philippines by their side in the fight if they played it into a larger war I think the Japanese South Koreans and Australians would be likely to come in before the Indians but it is possible that India would come in the problem that India faces is that it has to protect its home waters and it has to protect its border with China and I think the last thing India is going to be anxious to do is join the fight and get into a war with India excuse me with China I think it's in India's advantage in the scenario that you described to provide indirect assistance to the Americans and do as little as possible to help the Americans that will not make the Americans happy but that I think is in India's national interest you mentioned the Chinese economy and they're not in the best phase they have way too many challenges the world is talking about decoupling, de-risking, friend-shoring do you think Xi Jinping revealed his hand too soon that he should have waited for a few more years before openly challenging the US there's no question that it was in China's interest as Deng Xiaoping pointed out many many years ago for China to rise as quietly as possible and not in any way threaten the Americans and I believe that the Chinese by and large tried to do that but the problem is that the United States eventually came to see that China was growing economically and militarily more powerful and we started telling ourselves stories about how China might end up being a really formidable military foe now you want to remember this is very important when the United States started to pursue a policy of engagement towards China in the early 1990s which was designed to make China rich we believed that China would eventually become a democracy and when it became a democracy it would get along very well with other democracies like the United States like India, like Japan because democracies never fight against each other in the story that we told ourselves now I want to be clear I don't believe that story but the vast majority of foreign policy experts in the West do believe that story but the problem in that story is that China did not become a democracy so what happened here is it got richer and richer it began to build larger military forces and even though it didn't in my opinion do much to provoke the Americans the mere fact that it wasn't a democracy combined with all that military might that it was developing forced the Americans to abandon engagement and move to a containment policy the funny thing is that China does call itself a democracy with Chinese characteristics but you have said in the past that the US foolishly fed the rise of economic rise of China the US is now working very closely with India do you foresee a potential rivalry with India in the future no just to go back to the Chinese-American case as some of you remember in the early cold war China and the Soviet Union were on one side and the Americans were on the other and then starting with Nixon and Kissinger in the early 70s we brought the Chinese over to our side so it was the Americans and the Chinese versus the Soviet Union during that second half of the cold war we had a vested interest in helping China to get rich because as China got rich it helped us contain the Soviet Union when the cold war ended when the cold war ended and the Soviet Union went away my argument is we no longer have a vested interest in helping China to get rich now let's go to the India question at this point in time the United States has a deep-seated interest in seeing India grow wealthier and militarily more powerful because India can help the United States contain China India is a member of the Quad if China develops a powerful projection, naval projection capability into the Gulf area India will play a key role in helping the United States deal with that scenario we have a vested interest in helping India grow if, however, China at some point in the future goes the way of the Soviet Union China breaks up it's much weaker tomorrow than it is today and India continues to grow more and more powerful you can rest assured the United States will put its gun sights on India all I can say is that American policymakers do not learn from their own history they also supported the rise of Pakistan to counterbalance India and that did not go very well we are out of time but I have to ask you one last question how do you see the Gaza war ending we know that you have criticized Israel's actions very strongly which is also a contrast with how you see Palestine versus Ukraine but how do you see the end to this conflict I think the Gaza war from Israel's point of view is a disaster it is important to understand that Israel conquered Gaza in 1967 after the 1967 war Israel ended up with the West Bank and with Gaza and they built some settlements in Gaza after 1967 and they stationed military forces in Gaza after 1967 in 2005 Ariel Sharon who was a super hawkish individual and who was Prime Minister of Israel at the time pulled all of the Israeli settlements and the Israeli military out of Gaza and basically turned it into a giant open air prison but there were no Israeli settlements or military forces inside of Gaza Sharon understood that was not in Israel's national interest because Gaza was like a hornet's nest for the Israelis well if you look at what's happened as a result of October 7th the Israelis are back in Gaza they have large scale military forces there and they plan to stay there at the same time there is virtually no chance that Israel is going to defeat Hamas so they are going to have significant resistance from Hamas they're stuck in Gaza and world opinion and this includes countries like India which favor the two state solution and the United States which favors the two state solution are going to put enormous pressure on Israel over time to move to a two state solution which Israel doesn't want to do all of this is to say Israel is in real trouble I have a lot of questions we are completely out of time thank you so much for joining us and for sharing your insights thank you indeed it's interesting that you call the two state policy that India holds to the present conflict at illusion ladies and gentlemen once again thank you for this engaging conversation with our guest political scientist John Miersheimer expressing his insights his recommendations his very crucial and sometimes very interesting observations about geopolitics on just why the West is principally responsible for the Ukrainian crisis firmly believing the reckless expansion of NATO that provoked Russia and in his concluding remarks how he holds Israel responsible for the present turmoil in Gaza so very controversial statements there but he is also someone who is extremely respected in geopolitical circles so that was ladies and gentlemen John Miersheimer but don't forget for the big event that will happen in just a few hours from now the grand finale which promises to be a mesmerizing evening perfect end to a power pie packed today we also have our guest ready for the next session so like we promised Bharat's march as a global leader is much about its economic arrival as about its rich and diverse social cultural soft power and what better way to really invite the proceedings a group of very distinguished artists whose compositions have made our country stand out on the global music map their creations are a synthesis of not only music from east and west but also the classical forms from north and southern India transcending geo-cultural boundaries they are ladies and gentlemen a quintessential embodiment of India's Shakti please put your hands together let's have a nice round of applause for our next guests and our Grammy award winners Shankar Mahadevan V. Selva Ganesh Ganesh Raja Gopalan and Rakesh Charasya in conversation with my colleague Anand Narsaman warm welcome wonderful to have you to the evening amongst us let's have a huge loud round of applause ladies and gentlemen our shining stars not 1, 2, 3 we have 4 Grammy winners among us ladies and gentlemen this is a very very special moment personally for me and also for us at the news AT network and the entire family and I must say it because this is a group of geniuses to get them together on a platform like Rising Bharat is a historic moment it's a phenomenal moment to get 4 Grammy winners who amongst them have actually won 3 of them with Shakti and Rakesh Charasya Ji has won 2 Grammys this year 2024 so this group Shakti is a phenomenal one and Ustad Zakhar Hussain we are missing you sir Ustad Ji we are missing you but to have all of them here from the far corner the renowned violinist brothers Ganesh Kumbres so Mr. Ganesh Raja Gopalan who's flown in all the way from Seattle for us to be here with us if you heard of Viku Vinayakram then that's the pedigree that follows so from the Ghatam to the Kanjira if the father did we are what the father did with Ghatam so Selva Ganesh Ji thank you very very much and I am going back to many years ago I shouldn't have said that but yes I first met him in college and I was an emcee and he was performing and there were others who said and I remember Viku sir telling me that's my son and he's not playing the Ghatam but whatever he plays people will remember the Kanjira that's what he's done so fantastic and I hope Viku sir gets well soon thank you very much Rakesh Chaurasi Ji thank you very much for doing this now he is getting into compositions and into the realms where many would not want to go but as a flottist he's taking another Karana another legacy forward that's from his uncle Hariprasad Chaurasi Ji so the entire lineage phenomenal and he's a genius who from the age of 4 from the age of 6 and mesmerizing audiences from the age of 4 his first professional concert and I think he's got a recording of that as a gift recently but at the age of 11 he can play more than 20 instruments but we all know him the man with the golden voice and the magical compositions the one and only Shankar Mahadevan Ji gentlemen thank you very very much first let me ask you Ganesh Ji what is Bharat for you Bharat is Shakti why do you say that you try to steal it but I'm going to push you over Harad I'm going to ask you why you know I think as you have rightly named this Conclave as Rising Bharat I mean we are rising in all spheres and music is one that you can see here and even otherwise we see that Bharat is the next hope for humanity so I feel that is why I'm saying Bharat is the Shakti of the world is the Shakti of the world are we making the music of Bharat its Shakti Selva Ji let me ask you this when you play the Kanjeera you connect with people when you play music when we play classical music and music gets interpreted so are we connecting is the world connecting with Bharat's music oh yeah for sure you already introduced like you know there are five Grammys from India so Bharat is already like noticed and also like two other Indians also nominated and our beloved prime minister also nominated so Bharat is like you know you can see it you can feel it but do you see a change you know one of my other good friends Ricky Cage was part of the nominations he is one Grammys a lot of time so shout out to him too but let me ask you this the years that you've played concerts that you've gone to is there a greater appreciation for what Bharat brings to the table when it comes to music yeah for sure definitely it is definitely our friend right now and especially me if you ask me like you know I follow the footsteps of like you know the three legendary musicians one is my dad one is John G. John McLaughlin and Zakir Bhai so whatever they do they just do they don't look for what we are going to get it just the Bharat like you know we give our 100% to music which we definitely have to do that Rakesh ji when was the last time or the first time let me ask you that that Hari Prasad Chaurasiya ji said good work when Grammys won you what did he have to say well it was never it's okay because maybe he is expecting a lot from me that's I think that's the sign of a greater guru not to compliment and then talk about your student with other people you know he is doing good so this has happened that he doesn't say anything to you but the world is around it come back to me he was praising you that is my energy to keep me on my toes so what was his reaction when you told him that two Grammys won oh wow that was it that was it you were little confused why two for the same album that said this is a different category oh what is category now in album so I had to make him understand one for the song and one for the album so this is I think there was three nominations and we got two one was for the composition also oh fantastic so here I correct there was a nomination for the but I think it's all his blessings and whatever I am today because of his and as you mentioned what is Bharat Bharat for me is a breath you know what I blow in my flute is a breath is breath what an answer Bharat for me is breath what I blow in and to my flute phenomenal and you are communicating that 25 years with Shakti sir for you and the first Grammy comes via voice note compositions tell us to take us to that story what did it happen this whole thing the album that won the Grammy it was via voice notes this album the way it happened was very amazing Anand it all happened during the peak of Covid you know because we tour so much used to do 20 concerts in 30 days and all over America all over Europe all over India we were continuously travelling and then we were almost getting withdrawal symptoms so we have to do an album and nobody can move out of the house because of Covid so the way this album happened was completely remote control Zakir Bhai was from San Francisco Selvaji Ganesh Ji from Chennai Seattle I was from Mumbai and John Ji from Monaco all of us recording files going up and down on a server you know bars being exchanged comments emails mixes oh my god by the time the mix got over it was a what a process it was but when we heard it we said we have cracked something that is almost next to impossible this was your studio album for Shakti after how long 46 years 46 years this band is 50 years old by the way we jumped into the bandwagon about 25 years back and we are lucky to be the ones who got the Grammy ok now I am going to put all of you in the spot a little you know by the way I will tell you if this guy would not have been a television anchor he would have definitely been a musician or a musician of heart that is what Anand Radha said sir my note doesn't sound right that's why I have never sung it sir someone is looking like a note that's fine ok now what I am going to ask you tell me something special about Ganesh ji's music why is he who he is and why is he part of Shakti ok I will tell you something we are in the middle of Europe in a completely non-Indian atmosphere complete foreigners in the audience this gentleman only one Tampura is playing no other instrument he plays Abhogi Ragh for about a good 10-12 minutes nothing else we are all sitting quiet he plays that just his instrument and the Tampura and he gets a standing ovation so that is what Ganesh ji is all about so these are these are musicians melodic musicians who don't need too many notes to prove themselves one note and it goes straight into your heart it's like that you like that I cannot talk like that you better talk some nice things about me I cannot talk like that nor can I sing so now from a person who is a master a maestro at string now do you talk about somebody who is a maestro at percussion oh yeah now I know the game so ok as Aakir bhai is more like brother and mentor, guide, friend is lots of that and I am very lucky to be even partnering with Zakir bhai I just interrupt all of us over here because of this man called Ustad Zakir Husein let's have a loud round of applause for Ustad Zakir Husein sorry it's true actually so that's what Zakir bhai is for me and as he said for all of us and Selvaji we have been childhood friends we know each other from when we were like this you have to hold the mic you are older we are not the same age you are not the same age he is older I'll tell you for what I am a grandfather in that case I am older ok so we have played together and I have been fortunate to be playing with his dad Vikumama and toured quite a lot and both of them have played together I mean like Vikumama and him, myself and Kumaresh we have toured a lot and it's always a pleasure because he is my go-to guy so it's just fun just being with him because he is very very affectionate and very lovely person to be with so he didn't talk about my name so now what was that last one always the response thank you very much thank you respond on what on the bowl ok thank you thank you thank you thank you what are you saying now Selvaji let me ask you you played with Haripasad ji also but at a time when your father was also there I know there were butterflies in your stomach and all of that was there then when you first played with Rakesh ji was that how good he is it was the same feeling when I played with Hari ji and whenever I played with him too and recently we did a concert too like nominees not just amazing it's very tough guy on stage too but with some unbearable dirty jokes you could have said only jokes dirty is also a picture see the face of that joke but yeah not just the classical music even if it is a fusion even one of the Shakti like I would say one of the best lotus feet I think this man can definitely play that tune without like lagging or because it's very tough it sounds easy but to form with the form I have heard him so many times playing lotus feet and I said oh my gosh this guy is amazing and of course Hari ji also played the same tune in remember Shakti first album in 1999 so that was the first remember Shakti when they started so Hari ji and my dad played and same tune in Bangalore like we both played it so father son son whatever you call it so this guy is amazing and I was lucky enough to Zakir bhai and Ganesh ji was performing in Ajivasan with John ji and I was sitting in the audience and suddenly he told me to come on stage and play this piece in lotus feet they suddenly asked to come out and yeah so if you were to suddenly ask because sir if your flute comes here then you can play something yes why not you want to listen so you have to cheer him you have to sir where are your flutes where are they so I am here if you help because I know by the way she is Mrs Rakesh Chaurosh for them also so ma'am you have got to help us out suddenly I thought because these people you have a breath so until Basuri comes then how will you speak Murli yes by the way you have to play in this house she is married so it is better to practice ok by then please tell me why something special about this person here he is a monster when it comes for singing when it comes to finding cuisine means when you go to google what is the best cuisine of this city and then he takes everybody there let's go there and find it is a very good food it is very difficult for this kind of combination amazing artists and amazing human beings very friendly everybody wants to say something he was saying about no Shankar Ji was saying about Ganesh Ji playing just Raghav Bogi with Tambura just imagine most of the concert not too many notes he will do one top note sustained this happens like every concert before he finishes he gets the standing ovation before he stops that one tone which stays for more than we can't even count it how long he is sustaining that's enough so to sustain it at one breath it's not going to be difficult I do agree that but it's all different notes people can let go so many notes but one note sustained and he gets a standing ovation let's listen to Rakesh Ji and then we will ask Rakesh Ji to give him the note that he has to sustain but I am enjoying this mutual admiration club I will hold it I will hold it I will hold it you don't have to think about it what is Pashto? Lotus feet or Pashto? whatever you choose Pashto won the Grammy this year fantastic now you too you have to do the note now that's why it gets warm up what sir give that to the money hold it hold it I will hold it just on national network it's okay amazing ladies and gentlemen put your hands together for the one and only Shankar Mahadevan Rakesh Swarasiya, Selva Ganesh Ganesh Raju Gopalan do you want to hear more of them? do you want to hear more of them? ladies and gentlemen if I remove this their instruments are ready it's going to be a grand Grammy winners performance right here on the Rising Bharat Summit we just need to give them 25 minutes to set up so this stage is clear and the stage is all theirs and they will be joined by the one and only King of Jazz in Bharat and Gino Banks the phenomenal percussionist Ojasadia and of course the bass guitarist Sheldon De Silva it's going to be a phenomenal line up along with these four in a short while from now are you ready? I love the spirit let's go big round of applause for them thank you so much