 Welcome back to why in the morning and if it's Monday it matters pertaining youth and politics and also man conversations so in studio right now we are about to dive into a conversation that looks at the question is why is man's mental health not important I know it's three of of a little bit but that's a conversation that we having right now okay so I would like to also find out if when it comes to women and men is there difference when it comes to mental health my name is Michelle Ashira you can follow us across all our social media handles that is that Y254 channel at Michelle Ashira is where you can find me across all my social so in studio most definitely I am joined with two gentlemen who'll take you we'll take us through this particular conversation and also at bring it back home on a personal level if they have experienced any kind of mental difficulties mental illness in that form and the importance of mental health. Thank you. So I'll start with my immediate very close on my right to just introduce yourself and tell us what you do. My name is Bravin Nuri I'm a social media influencer political scientist but above all I'm a mental health advocate. I do advocate for mental health and I speak about mental health and I mostly advocate for people speaking out and speaking up when it comes to mental health because I believe that when people share their stories it helps to encourage even other people to come out and be able to talk about their childhood. Okay right the gentleman and is that a jungle green? Yeah. Emerald green. Okay. Pobius it may not be the first time saying you know probably of course even our guest here but tell us who you are what you do. I'm Preston Jane one. I am a TV producer director and show host. I also am an advocate of teaching young men on how to become alpha males how to become ideal men in the society. Yes so basically we are strong into empowering and teaching the boy child to be that person that will drive the society into a better place. That brings another different conversation from an angle where men are supposed to be strong. As you mentioned alpha male and then there's an aspect of being strong and you cannot speak alpha is alpha is has been given a very the conventional understanding of alpha is very wrong or let me say the face but people think alpha is about masculinity alpha is about a man who walk in a room and if a person walks to them and says something that is not right they beat them up. Now alpha is just being an ideal man understanding that a man is human you have emotions you can cry a man can wear pink you get a man can cook just being a man who in your interactions with every other relation you have you are that person who takes the lead you are that person who makes everyone feel alright. Okay fantastic we'll get into that in a deeper level as we go in the conversation but starting us off I'd like to find out Bravin have you ever experienced mental health condition. Yeah personally I've experienced depression as a person I've also experienced trauma at the same time and still handling anxiety to some extent because these are some of the things that have actually pushed me towards championing for mental health because I believe that there are people who are going also through this stuff but most of the time they do not get the platform to talk about them so what I tend to as a person I've actually been through depression way back in campus I had to undergo some personal stresses it is that I could not be able to find someone to talk to because at the time nobody was actually talking about mental health so I had to struggle my way through it and even when I was still as handling my traumas at the time I think I did not have even the platform to actually talk about it so that is one of the things that actually pushed me towards talking about mental health because it made me realize that there are people who actually need a platform where they can air their what they're going through and their views and that is what I intended to do and actually created a platform for them to actually do that so I've experienced it and I know how how much it can do to someone and so that is why most of the time I'm passionate about mental health because it's something that I've been through and I know how it feels like to go through such a situation without getting that helping hand so I decided to be one of the people that provide that helping hand so that other people can also not like it but have it so that they can be able to have a better way to walk through it and be a better people at the same time and for this you'll be into this journey when you spoke one of you one of the things that she did founded mental health Kenya and I look for not for how long have you been doing this I've been advocating for mental health from 2012 that is probably close to 10 years right now because when I started advocating for mental health the conversation around mental health wasn't as vocal as it is right now in fact I think I'm more encouraged right now because there is a lot of talk when it comes to mental health but back then it was talking about it and nobody was even trying to push that conversation out there people are silent about it and many were still suffering in silence so I think right now it's much more better to see that the conversation is more more outspoken right now many people are talking about it and you can see even advocacy at different levels so I think there's been some good fruits in the in the campaign and the awareness so yeah that is what I can say all right all right pristan on your end you hosted most of most of the conversation in the program you have gentlemen and sets to talk about many issues but I would like to find out on a personal level have you experienced a mental health condition I have heart depression myself it was so bad that that time I didn't have anyone to confide in so what I would do I'd walk myself to church like spend most of the time in church not really praying but just finding somewhere peaceful yes so it was very serious sometime I would walk in the road not on the road not on the on the on the pedestrian walk I'd walk close to where the cars moving and I can recall that times traffic police have stopped me out like hey you young man you think the road is yours because I don't understand myself what I need is just destruction and my destruction I think was leading me to a bad thing in a way but just the sound of the vehicles and all that oh sometime when I need now a quiet place I would go to church yes know that I was having suicidal thought it never go to that point but I think also I didn't understand myself and I was putting myself into danger I could hardly eat no sleep no eating on nothing I had to cut myself off social media and all that I just I could not watch music yes I could not watch music because sometimes music and some type of movies would remind me of what I'm fighting so I would I would I shut down anything that would remind me of what I'm fighting I could not go to town I could not come to town coming to town I'll get super depressed so you isolated yourself I try to isolate myself and I have a very good sister at that time she was outside of the country so she told me hey yes you know what you have a problem so what to do is what if you come I invite you over so that you just get fresh environment so that you forget all this cause I would literally not move anywhere cause anywhere I moved I was reminded of what I'm fighting and that would put me down I can't eat I feel like the world is coming to an end my head is heavy I'm like okay what I brought you to that particular state I even allowed you to know about it mmm a relationship gone south yeah yeah when it starts to rain in heaven it gets it gets tough so and it was not just a relationship it's not just a breakup it was a breakup that comes with so many other things these are this person is is trying to create some stuff in your life that you look at you know like do we ever know each other so it was very tough I wouldn't want to delve much into that because it'd be like talking ill of the person because I know as a person I have my part that played that might have led into this but it was very it was very it was very a very tough moment for me but anyway I would say I was immature me and right now I'm grown I know how to handle things yes so growth also helped in healing okay all right in a couple of I think last week we lost one of the DJ DJ leader is working at one media station he committed suicide allegedly through taking that poison and one of when he wrote a note or a letter that's saying that's one of the reason why he felt on that particular position or decision he made is that family issues are involved and then the last treat that were made by him we were speaking about visiting for going for therapy spoke about how expensive it is that 6,500 even quoted the amount per session bravino let's understand what would you describe as someone who is mentally healthy and probably you can also take us through a couple of mental health conditions that are most most common to begin with I'd like to say currently we don't say we don't advocate for saying commit suicide we say die by suicide okay yeah so you know when you talk about health in general health is not just about the absence of a disease it's it's about the state of being complete in terms of your physical mental and social well-being so when it comes to mental health it's not just the absence of a mental illness it's actually a state where you realize your own abilities you're able to cope with the normal stresses you are able to work productively and you're able to contribute to the community so if you are incapable of being able to handle the normal stresses for example financial stresses etc then that is when you are probably in a not good state of mind when you're not in a situation where you can handle that when it comes to suicide a World Health Organization says that suicide happens impulsively when there is someone is incapable of actually handling their normal stresses so when it comes to suicide for example I think it's World Health Organization has said it's the second lead leading course of death for the people that are aged between for example 15 years to 29 years and if annually we lose like 800,000 people to to suicide so I think when it comes to mental health in Kenya generally therapy as he said that it's expensive that's that's true it's it's actually expensive therapy is very expensive and I would actually wish that at least the government could step in and make it a bit more affordable I've seen some other organizations that are actually offering some of the services pro bono like us I also partner with them therapists who offer pro bono services so what we do is when someone has a condition or wants to see a therapist we can organize for one of those therapists who wants to offer pro bono services but we also have those who charge possessions because some of them also have more clients to actually deal with but also at the same time it's not just about the cost we also lack the specialist themselves we have very few specialists when therapists that is so I think there is a lot that we need to work on when it comes to mental health and I think if NHIF could also incorporate that and make it more affordable so that even if someone wants to go for let's say therapy they can be able to get it at a better price if they have NHIF it can go at least a very long way in terms of helping people get this access to the counseling sessions and services it will really do a lot of good for the people of Kenya because currently we have a huge spike in the number of cases if you look at last year the police report that was released we lost 483 Kenyans to suicide in the month three months to June like the three months to June we lost 483 Kenyans and if you look at the numbers also you find that the youngest person on the report had nine years it was a nine-year-old and the oldest were like at 76 year-old and in the previous year we lost a six-year-old to suicide in Kilefi that was in 2020 I think if you look even at the age difference or even those who are actually we are losing to suicide the kids it means even the kids are affected yeah so if you look at an explanation for the nine-year-old last year it was because they were scolded for bad performance in school that is so there's a lot of stress that actually push people to suicide it it is something that we need to talk about it's how we solve these issues most of the time I always tell people that if we are able to find you know before someone decides to choose suicide there's always a why if you are able to actually attend to the why then we can be able to prevent the suicide so if we are able to encourage people to speak about the why then I think we'll be able to address some of these cases if we don't actually encourage people to talk about the why then it can be difficult to actually address these cases of suicide because most of the time people keep quiet about what they're going through especially men and if you look at the statistics at the most men are actually more prone to suicide than women because most of the time women talk about their issues but men we don't talk about them so sometimes it just happens they take actions because they've been going through something now they can't handle because they have not been talking about it and there's a lot of stigma even when it comes to therapy men feel like I've talked to some of my friends I've asked them if they can go for therapy some of them tell me now that is a woman thing it's not a man thing so you know there is a lot of stigma even when it comes to therapy when someone says they want to go for therapy and he's a man most of the time people look at you like you are not you're not a normal man if there's something wrong with you you're weak that that is the problem that we have right now and I think there's a lot of bad or let's say misinformation in terms of therapy out here so I think we have a lot to do even in terms of encouraging men to go for therapy because at the end of the day therapy is good for you it's good for you as a person even before you get into any relationship because I understand also cause some of the mental health problems that we might experience so before you even go for any into an any relationship I would encourage you first go to therapy with your partner because there are a lot of things people don't talk about but therapy will enable you to actually bring them out and that is how you'll be able to tackle some of these things even before you get into that relationship because sometime you might end up into it and you are not prepared mentally and you didn't even know and you know sometimes even people can be depressed but they don't know they're getting into a relationship and they are depressed but they don't know they're even depressed and that's so we look at a couple of signs that you can also look out for if someone is actually going through a mental health condition please don't like to find out in your case whereby you are depressed and you just like now your sister's actually identified that you're not okay at all particular point did you open up or what she got you to open up and before you I want to trust her I think my sister and I share a very close relationship so we'll confide in it into each other and speak freely about what's happening and also she wouldn't have gotten to know about this but she had to know it because whoever I was involved with now was speaking to everyone in my circle and that's how you really tell people young people when you get into a relationship before you think of marrying someone don't just introduce them to anyone because they might want to turn your life upside down once they're done with you so my sister learns of stuff from this this lady from here so she's told and because we share a close relationship she asked me but the way we are speaking she understands me very much she feels like she feels like I'm not well so we keep on speaking for a while keep on speaking for a while and then she keeps on getting so many stories from this person and she's like no these must be taking toll on my brother so in the process of pushing to know pressing the right buttons to know how I'm doing just tell her I'm not that good yes yes so but speaking to my friends I wouldn't speak I wasn't speaking to my friend why wouldn't she speak to your friends no I'm who like the boys I wouldn't speak to my friends first of all I usually to say we have friends not everyone is your friend like personally I would count my friends they're not even like five others are just pulse others just acquaintances other than just associates others are just mates so this thing of saying BFF calling everyone BFF these are these person you're calling BFF you tell them what you're suffering from they'll not say they just laugh and because of this thing of misunderstanding there that are alpha male thing you speak to your friend and they tell you are you dude we told you these was a no-go zone you didn't man there are so many girls out here you can find another move on you don't need to go to such like a person or you were fighting a bad breakup which is making you depressed and a person is introducing you to another girl so you just going you want to go with baggage into a new relationship where you're going to make the other person depressed so this is like passing depression to another person so sometimes some things you don't confide to your friends especially when your friends are not that wise or not that mature and not informed yes and that's why you really tell young people don't just have friends or call a person who tells you every Friday we are going to a club that is your friend the friend that you should confide in the person who tells you hey there's this opportunity let's go for it you're doing wrong here let's do this so my friends were that type oh let's go for a road trip you really confide in a person like that when you have stress you have stress and yet what the solution they're giving you is here we have a party girls are coming you confide into a person like that so I would like to find out now how did you move on from that because you mentioned like I moved on from that when you are winding up other one in that particular story I would like to find out you're coping your how you developed like life like your life coping skills just to outbrew that particular moments and did you seek any therapy was there for that level of help I'm working up I was working with some with some people's charity charitable people but most thankfully they were doctors so big doctors so they would hook me up to shrinks so where I go and you speak about them and then they try advice you therapist that is they speak to you so I had some professional help but what helped me what I felt like helped me most because sometime help is it being with is within you not outside what helped me is switch my numbers dumped the old numbers deleted all my Instagram my Facebook I quit social media I quit social media and change totally changed all my friends totally like I have a new set of friends I have a new set of balls I have a new set of people I work with that time I used to do anything with I cut them off because they were not helping me in any way and then also leaving the country helped me made me forget everything so that is how I got out of it I believe you've interacted with so many people who have gone through or still going through mental health conditions and I like to find out what are some of the early warning sites that you can actually watch out for even for people who are around you as family and friends and then you can really identify that by the way Michelle is not okay but the way Kristen is not okay so what are a couple of those sites that we can look out for and just really know that someone is not doing well you know the thing about mental health we have people who respond different for example it comes to depression when someone is depressed for example that those who will actually show signs that you'll be able to see but there are others who will just smile around and not show any signs for example yeah you'll see someone who is probably just excited they are parting you know sometimes sometimes for other people a sign of being depressed is being hyperactive because that is that will actually probably show you that something is not right because there's a change in behavior are there those who will withdraw some will not talk much they're not if they are updating for example their WhatsApp status is the social media status is they don't do it or the the form or the way in which they try to communicate or put out the the messages that they put out it changes for example if they use to be jovial and talk about specific kind of topics they switch to a different kind of topic with a different kind of tone so you can be able to actually see those are for example people who at least show the signs you can be able to see are there those who will just lock themselves in a room not to extend bed for example take an off just to for example just deal with what they are going through in silence then there are those who will for example go in a party drink try to escape from what they're feeling for example some will do alcohol for example you'll see they are doing for example abusing drugs you know the some of the behaviors sometimes just need to be careful and keen to actually notice some of the behavior because some you'll be able to see them at like at a glance but the others you'll not be able to see so at the end of the day it requires you to actually just be there for them if they need that help just tell them if they want to talk it's okay they can talk to you if they want to talk about something because sometimes just being there for someone is probably what they need sometimes people just want someone who can actually listen not give just advice just listen to them because most of the time a listening here is better that's why I always tell people it's it's why you have two years you have to listen more than just talk you have one mouth so just listen to what someone has to say it's more important because if you are able to be there for them that is more than what they need because it's one step when they start talking about the issues one step towards recovery because recovery is a journey it's not just an event that happens one day so if they talk about their problems then it can be easier for you even to see how probably you can help them probably by referring them to a specialist someone who can give them a professional guidance and help and support and and Michelle I just being there for a person especially for young people and I tell young people like with my boys I have weird conversations with that with that with my male friends being there for a person because he said there are some people who don't show signs of depression how can you help such like a person I feel like when you're speaking to a person there are people who text you hey and then use you you text hello and then they say I hope you're good I usually tell people always with the people you close to your relations your relations ask them how are you doing have you had one two three things that is how you you realize that a person is not good if you ask a person how are you good how are you feeling they'll tell you I'm well but if you just tell them I hope you're good you've already locked them out they can't tell you how they're feeling because you said you hope even read somewhere that when someone asks you how are you doing they really don't really mean it in most cases they just want to kickstart a conversation they want to kickstart a conversation so when I ask you how are you doing you tell me I'm this way I ask you how is your health how did you wake up today have eaten have you done so from that you'll pick because you know a person if you know a person very well the person tell you have not eaten you ask them why have you not eaten and I ask my boys the problem with men is they feel if you start asking a man such like questions and then then you border some some side of gender fluidity I don't want to go there but these stereotypes need to be broken we need to take care of each other and this how you know that there's a time I was speaking to a person personally just a stranger whether you were texting me commenting on my show I don't know how they found my number then we are speaking to them and I'm like how are you doing how is your day how is cool how is it going through that conversation me asking those small questions they open up they told me they're depressed so we had to meet up I'm like I just and then we had a conversation and later they said I'm feeling good but I told them if this doesn't help you seek a therapist sometime for us men let's just open up to each other let's care for each other let's ask how a person is doing don't feel like you are an alpha male there the typical alpha male that you don't need to cry you don't need to open up to a person you don't need to vent that venting is for women and men we are all supposed to be brave we are we are supposed to be brave and just you know sure everything is okay yeah sure everything is okay when it's not because we are meant to be strong no men cry it's okay not to be okay for a man it's okay to cry just be vulnerable because that is how you get help and how do we how do you deal with the stigma or rather just get rid of the whole stigma about you know as the way you put it an alpha man is a man who is according to society someone who is strong someone who is brave someone who has it all figured out you're not supposed to cry and even open up to your to your friends or anything like that so how do you kill the stigma around it how do you kill the narrative that that is the alpha man or that is the man at the end of the day you're just you you're just you you were born alone you go to your house alone when you have your problems you face them alone when you die you die alone you don't die to people so if you want to leave because you want to impress people or you want to give this impression that you're a strong man then that is very wrong just be you be okay just have a veil have a veil around yourself that separates you from the people who are trying to stereotype everything about men the people who want to make you feel that you are less of a man because you are venting because you are you are expressing how how you feel yes just be you do you your mental health your health wholly holistically is about you so don't listen to what people are saying about you only listen to them when they're giving you good advice these other time they are speaking to you just here you know there's difference between listening and hearing just hear them you say a man should not cry okay I hear you but you're not in my shoe don't you're not in my shoe so I won't listen to that I'll go cry I'll find someone to vent to even if it is a lady go vent with that lady if even if it is a young a young a young person who's wiser than you go vent to them go vent to your mother and young people establish good relationship with their mothers with your sisters with your brothers but these are the people who listen to you your friends those ones those that you go to the club with daily will not let you vent they'll want to tell you hey grab some thoughts and down go out and do this and that just yeah because they don't really understand and they're not informed on what you're going through that all right so like just last two week I believe on when is there believe if you guys are familiar with Hollywood social you know Regina King so her son her only son known as Ian Alexander died by suicide so and he was at the age of 26 so a braven elect to understand when it comes to mental health and just different conditions per se what are the factors contributing to this you know different conditions we have anxiety we have depression there's so many of them so what are the couple of factors that actually contribute to mental health problems the mainly we have socioeconomic problems we have biological causes and we also have environmental causes these are things that actually contribute to people having different kinds of mental health related problems because there are people who actually born with some mental health illnesses for example and how just in born yeah there are people who actually born for example if if let's say someone has inherited a kind of mental health illness from the history of the family yes that is they're born with it it's biological then there are those for example you get for example trauma because of something that happened to you for example if for example you face the situation or a scenario that weighed heavily in terms in terms of your mental health so you you end up developing let's say some withdrawal from such kind of event for example as a person me personally I had an accident that is I was seriously mugged and that is what gave me a serious trauma and that is why I switched from being an extrovert into an introvert so it kind of changes you in one way or the other so you can get all this in terms of different causes and there are those who for example get depressed because of economical reasons you know you are incapable of servicing your bills etc you get depressed then that is how we develop it as a mental health problem so there are different things that can actually cost you to have different mental illness but mostly when it comes to suicide for example depression is the highest lead cause of suicide when it comes to in Kenya that is if I'm talking about a Kenyan setup depression is one of is the leading cause and depression has been called has the causes of depression as several in Kenya but the leading one mostly is usually financial for example strains that is but at the same time there are those people who have the money but still end up getting depressed because of different causes again so there's so many factors that actually make someone to get any mental illness but it all narrows down to how they're able to express what they're going through when it comes to suicide most of the time I tell people you would never understand the reason as to why one chooses suicide unless you're in that shoe unless you're able to wear that shoe then you are unable to understand is the same thing I always tell people and give them this analogy when it comes to a house that is on fire and you are in the fourth floor fifth floor and then someone has two options either to stay in the house and get consumed by that fire or jump from the fourth floor not sure that they'll survive the jump so that is a scenario in which someone is already they are burning with issues so for them they're looking for a way out of this issue so they are unable to cope with these issues that they're actually facing so that is the fire that is consuming them that probably they have not been given the platform to talk about them that is the why I was talking about initially if you're able to make these people to talk about the why then it will be easier for us to actually extinguish this fire that is consuming them so we can be able to give them support the help the therapy for example that they need so that they can be able to come out of that situation that they're in say a bit more safely than jumping out of that perspective we get it and please don't like to find out what role can women play to help men in their lives to become more you know they can communicate more they can talk about these issues just the role that a woman can play in their lives it could be your mother it could be your sister in your case that was the that was the case it could be your partner per se female relations are very very vital in in molding a man and female relations are very vital in making a man successful just like they say behind a very successful man these are these are these are women this is very interesting women do listen and they pay great attention so if you ever have female friends who are wise who you don't look at them with a lens of I've seen fly gorgeous woman and I want to get into their pants but look at them at I've seen a woman who is beautiful in here and outside that would help I realize that women would pay more attention when you vent than men would so men I'll just advise them try always speak to these women don't don't feel like you will feel weaker when you vent out or when you tell them your problems because these women's aside from just listening to them listening to you they'll even recommend someone women have have solutions they have a solution a solution to everything if you have a girlfriend normalize having conversations outside having fun with your girlfriend sometimes just go to the kitchen cook and then speak about something what I'll tell you will only build you also also what I would say is men should should should should like removed or some some source from these books whereby they feel they are a superior race I'm talking about now machismo you are over superior race you're over superior gender and and you cannot fight in women and that you have only how to speak to men listen in most cases men have misled men but in all cases where men have been have come out on the top it's women who have advised them as you wind up like you guys to give out your social media handles I hope that or a wish we could have more time because this is a conversation that we can go on and go on just to bring out also send awareness out there for also of years and anyone who wants to keep the conversation going how can they reach out to you bravin my social media handle is on Twitter it is a bravi newry on Instagram it is at its bravi newry on Facebook it's bravi newry that's my page so that is where you can reach me all right thank you very much bravin listen across all platforms that is Twitter and Instagram I'm Preston Jane one Preston Jane one where the Jane one Jane one is after my mother that's how I respect women and that's what I told you always seek advice from women there you have it thank you very much gentlemen for creating time to be that's talking about issues of mental health concerning precisely men in this case thank you very much thank you for them guys we were talking about why is men's mental health important not important that was the question of the day my name is Michelle ashera thank you for keeping this conversation with us on social media I'd like to fair for channel at Michelle ashera you can find me across all my social case will be coming up with youth and politics so make sure you stay tuned we have so much coming away right here on why in the morning