 I'm going to talk to you about why focusing on being liked as a vegan is a massive flaw. In no other circumstance do we go out into the world and we think being liked is more important than the task at hand or the mission at hand, right? We also know that people don't really like people who care too much about being liked. We actually like people who don't care about what other people think of them. And you know like dude, I'm not here to make friends with it, even though it's great that we're friendly. I'm here to speak for animals so you know that's the bottom line. Why is it that every vegan currently though focuses on being liked as a priority? Doesn't really resonate with the way the world works, does it? So we think if we say the right thing, do the right thing and the person that we're talking to likes us, they'll go vegan. What happens when they don't like you anymore? All right, they go back to abusing animals. Joey, how are we going? Yes, how are you doing? How are you doing, mate? What's your name? Mark. Yeah, it's weird because I've seen you on YouTube so many times. I was a man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're from England? I am, yeah. Do you live in Australia here? No, I don't. I'm actually just visiting. Oh, cool, me too. You're cool. But I'm not actually, I'll just put it out there. I'm not vegan or anything. Oh, really? No, but I do enjoy watching it and like you do make really good points and all. Why aren't you a vegan? So there's like a, there's a couple of, like first of all, like where I live is actually really difficult to sort of find anything like that. I know that's the first excuse anyone will say, but I actually live in China. You know, so it's like super difficult to get away from any of that. So like another thing would be sort of, so in order to, in order to produce plants, right, we still need to use pesticides and things like that in order to grow the crops. You said we still need to use pesticide? Well, as I understand it, we do. We need to use something in order to stop the wildlife eating the crops that we. That's a very big point there. You said we still need to. Do we not need to? Well, if you're declaring that we need to just stop, you know, animals from destroying the crops that feed humans. And that's a different scenario to needlessly slashing pigs' throats open for baking. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're putting a justification in there, you know, with insects that can't be reasoned with that. Don't listen to me saying, hey, can you please not destroy this crop here? You know, even though there are veganic farms who are moving towards more ethical farming, yeah, but vegans don't run plant farms, do they? No, no, we don't know. So you would say that because, like, let me just get this straight. So you would say that because there's harm in crop production, not just a fire. I didn't say anything, so, I mean, I'm not. But you said that I asked you why you're not vegan. Yeah. And you said because of pesticides and this harm in crop. So I'm just saying you're saying because there is harm in crop production, that then justifies what you see on the screens behind you. Oh, I didn't justify anything. I'm not saying anything. Okay. You said that. Yeah. But why would you say that the reason you're not vegan is because of pesticides? Oh, no, I didn't say the reason that I'm not vegan is because of pesticides. One of the things was it was too difficult in China. Okay, so, yeah, there is a lot more difficult. But don't get me wrong. If I see something vegan, I'm like, I don't go, oh, that's disgusting. I'm not going to eat it. Actually, you know what? I find that vegan and vegetarian food actually tastes a lot better because you have to put a lot more like, you know, you put more into it in order to get the taste out of it. I mean, I'm not going to give a fuck about that. But what I care about is you know so much about the ways you abuse animals through your lifestyle, but you still haven't stopped abusing animals. I'm just wondering what possesses the mind of someone who knows so much about the violent cruel torture they contribute to and still continue to do it. Well, there's no getting around it. I mean, whatever you buy, there's going to be some sort of destruction somewhere, isn't it? I mean, yeah, sure. Oh, yeah, that's an argument. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm not saying that it's right. Is that justification? I didn't say that. No, I didn't say that. But like in anything we do by just living, we take, right? Yeah, which is why I don't disagree with you. I don't disagree with you. But which is why I think it's great the like more and more big corporations are planning to go carbon negative and everything like that. You know, yeah, that's a different issue. That's environmental harm issue. Yeah, but from a rights violation, right? Yeah. These animals are being subjugated, enslaved, having their children stolen, raped, inseminated, tortured and killed, okay? Now, just because there's always going to be some impact from us living, right? Does that mean we should cause the maximum torture and killing and just say, what, you know, there's always going to be some harm? Might as well torturing killed pigs in gas chambers while I'm at it. Yeah. You know, we don't... Oh, I didn't know. Yeah, sure. Well, I don't say, well, if you bring that up in a conversation about ethics, I'm thinking you're using it as an excuse. So that's why I'm coming back at you because why else would you say it? Say what exactly? When you use... When you start bringing up these, we are going to cause some harm, right? So everything we do causes an impact. Sure. I think you're using it as... Just living is immoral or... I'm trying to give you a reason why I'm coming back at you. I think you're using that as an excuse to justify that. You know what I mean? Right. I understand what you're getting at. So why else would you say it in a conversation about why aren't you vegan? Right. I mean, I only came over to just see you just because I... You know, I did the... What do you call it? Challenge 22? But I did it for 28 days and it was pretty cool. And then what happened after that 28 days? Back into the friendship groups in society, you know, and it comes back to you. Yeah, yeah. Bro, you know very well what happens to animals so you can eat their corpses. Because I don't think being in China is an excuse for contributing to what happens to animals over there. But I have massively cut down on what I'm eating. So I mean, there's progress there. Absolutely. There's progress, but you're still an animal abuser through your lifestyle, you know? I think everybody is to some extent. And I'm not saying that that makes it right. But by you eating fruit and vegetables that have been grown using pesticides, you're also benefiting from the fact that an animal has been killed. And I mean, if you think, okay, so you're against factory farming, which is absolutely... Not necessarily just factory farming, but that's most of the problem. But if you think about the hundreds of millions of bugs and insects that are killed by pesticides that have been used to grow the fruit and vegetables that you're eating. Okay, so what do I eat? Nuts, beguins, fruit, vegetables... Yeah, but what am I supposed to eat if you're not giving me anything else to eat? Exactly. So should I chuck a pig in a gas chamber too? I didn't say that. No, but you are. No, I'm not. You are chucking a pig in a gas chamber as well as all the insects that die for your necessity to survive. No, I completely agree. So should I... Hold on, hold on, mate. Okay, make your point. So just by existing, humans are... I know this. I'll repeat this over and over again. I understand that I've seen your videos. I think that's absolutely great that you come and educate people on this sort of thing. I can see that. But there's no way to live without causing some sort of harm to something in some way. So just by existing, if you think that we're causing harm, then you think we shouldn't exist. Not necessarily. I think there's justified harm to survive and I think there's unjustified torture and animal abuse and killing. Just like I think that abusing a child is, on top of the harm you cause, unjustified. So if I was to say, hey, you come up to me, I'm abusing a child consciously. You come up to me and go, stop abusing that child and I'll go to you. Do you know how many thousands of insects you kill because you want to eat your fruits and vegetables? That's a good point. That's a very good point. Well, this is what you're doing to me. Why are you doing that to me? Why are you doing that? You kill insects too through your, you know, you cause harm as well. And you're chucking a pig in a gas chamber too. Right, in that instance, yeah. Yeah, so why? Wouldn't you rather just, okay, as a vegan, I'm going to be causing the least amount of animal exploitation. You're actually not exploiting animals at all. You're causing indirect harm, you know, from living. You're walking around, you're stepping on an insect, you're buying an apple. Maybe that farm did or didn't use pesticide. You don't know. I can guarantee you that cow come out of a slaughterhouse full of blood chopped up into pieces and fed your stomach. You know what I mean? So why cause the maximum amount of suffering and death when you don't have to, man? I understand, but I mean, if people are going vegan for these reasons, I think it's absolutely great that more and more people are first of all cutting down and then second of all doing the most and being as compassionate as they are. And I've seen your interviews on BBC, being from England. We watch work with Piers Morgan on there. Good morning. He uses the insect argument too. It's ridiculous. I agree. And on that interview, because I generally, I quite like him, but in these interviews, I think that he throws his logic out the window. He throws his logic and he throws himself around like a raging bull. I could use that insect argument to justify torturing and killing a dog right here in front of your face. But you'd say stop. And I'd say, what do you mean stop? Yeah. Do insects die for your fruits and vegetables, mate? You're a hypocrite. Sure. Do you think morality shouldn't exist because there's some impact from us trying to survive? Mm-hmm. You know, does that just give us carte blanche to go and stab and kill whoever we want, you know? For sure, no. Yeah. I mean, the reason I'm a vegan is because I was accountable and responsible. I didn't make any excuses for the animal abuse I was contributing to. And I just went, right, I'm going to stop. I'm going to stop. I'm going to stop chucking pigs into gas chambers and stabbing chickens in the throat. Yeah. All right. And try to trade as lightly on the earth as possible. Mm-hmm. You know? Thank you very much, Joe. Awesome, bud. It's been awesome. It's cool to meet you. And honestly, I do think that, what's it, when you go on these shows and they post, like, I mean, the titles are like militant, vegan, like, throws around, whatever, you know? And they've pushed you to be something that you're not. Yeah. No, I appreciate that, mate. Yeah. And the next time I see you, it's just the reason we're here, mate. Yeah. You know? I walked by earlier. I was just like, oh, Joey Kovchon doesn't say. And you know, like, dude, I'm not here to make friends with it, even though it's great that we're friendly, I'm here to speak for animals. I understand. So, like, you know, that's the bottom line. And the insect argument's really repugnant. It's really repugnant because it's just, mate, beginning to think. We're going around in circles on that. If you think the killing one animal is a bad thing, then, like, think that there are hundreds of millions that have to die just because of our living. I mean, in that case, if you think that it's bad for us to kill these hundreds of millions, then you're saying that it's bad for human species to exist on, like, a fundamental level. I think there's justified things we do to survive, okay? And I think there's unjustified things we do. And when you talk about killing one animal, that animal also ate tons and tons of plant food, you know? I understand. Which all incur their own... So when you eat a pig, you're not just eating that pig. You're eating everything that that pig ate, all right? Which is killing... So what I'm saying is if you eat the plants directly, and no, veganic farming hasn't taken over the world, vegans are trying to stop you from eating bacon first. That's what we're trying to do first. Next, we're going to try to make crop farming less horrific, okay? Where they're spraying all this stuff, spraying all these little bugs, shooting animals to get them off their farm. You know, we're not doing that, you know? There's things we can easily avoid to stop the animal abuse. Fundamentals. All right, brother. Nice to have you here. Thanks for the conversation. See you around. That was interesting. The insect argument really is repugnant and just... It's really a non-argument, isn't it? It's just, come on. When you put a child here, or a dog, or whoever, yourself, or let's just say I, you know, was a real asshole and just started assaulting him and said, well, morality doesn't exist because my fruits and vegetables harm insects. So I might as well not stop myself from stabbing everybody. You know, it's just really ridiculous when you put it like that. Helicopter.