 Are you guys not reading the comments? Oh, yeah, I have I do I just didn't see that one Okay, there was some there was a couple about you today I sent some funny ones about you guys Every week one of us becomes the person who everybody for who most people talk about this week It's Greg, but last week it was Mark and then chase has this normal stream of Chase's tan and Chase's books and Chase's this and Chase's that I like more the best comment I ever got was chase tan daddy You should have said that dude you really Get somewhere I'm sure Tan daddy That's gonna show up. Yeah They're right Somewhere out there saying Yeah Okay, everybody ready. Yeah ready There we go I'm Scott Rouse my body language expert and analyst and I train law enforcement in the military and interrogation body language I created the number one online course body language tactics with Greg Hartley mark Mark Bowden, I'm an expert in human behavior and body language Help people all over the world to stand out win trust and gain credibility Every time they speak including some of the leaders of the G7 chase I have chase Hughes did 20 years of the US military. I'm a behavior expert behavior profiling expert I teach persuasion influence and interrogation to government agencies and the general public And I'm also the proud owner of this new book right here called understanding body language by Scott Rouse Greg. Thank you chase Greg Hartley. I'm a former army interrogator interrogation instructor resistance to interrogation instructor for the 10 books on body language and behavior I've also put together this course with Scott Rouse body language tactics at body language tactics calm And I spend most of my time on Wall Street and corporate America All right. Well today, we're gonna talk about two things that we get more requests for we get there's a bunch of Requests for so we're trying to knock some of those out and here we're gonna kill two birds with one stone We're talking to him. We're gonna talk about Michael Jackson and his body language and the two guys that accused him When they're from when they were younger being abused by Michael Jackson now keep in mind as we go through this These these aren't together in other words We're not gonna listen to you know Michael Jackson refuting what they're saying because there's no footage of that but we are gonna hear the hear that the To accuse the guys who who are accusing him of doing this safe chuck and what's the other guy's name? Anybody remember? Thompson Something like that So the real we're gonna listen to both of those talk about what happened to him during that and we're gonna tell you what we see in their Body language and as we do this keep in mind. That's all we're doing We're just telling you what we see in this in these specific videos if I see something I'm gonna say here's what I see if Mark sees something here's what I see if Jay sees something Here's what I see and Greg sees see something here's what I see. We're not on anybody's side We're not on Michael Jackson side, and we're not on the accuser side We're just telling you what we see when we do this. That's it. It could be different What I'm seeing could be different than them like Greg seeing we could not be seeing something different But we're telling you what we see That's all we're doing and having said that Scott I think what you're gonna find today is you're gonna get some discussion and that's good We want to discuss what we're seeing on both in both cases. What we're not trying to do is say, okay This take it to the bank Michael Jackson did it because the way he looks in video one and two or that these guys Are saying something in videos three and four and five and six what we're looking for is what does Michael look like when he's talking to? Martin Bashir in this case and if we see deception will say hey This is a good indicator of deception and here's your baseline now if you find a video that shows him Directly contradicting something we would love to see that video. We just didn't find a great one So if you'll put it in the comments, we'll we read the comments and we'll find it We'll come back and review it again. We'd love to Yeah, or send it to the behavior panel at gmail.com and while you're here and while you're thinking about it Go ahead and subscribe to our channel and hit that little bell That'll let you know when we have something new come out and hit the like button to try to get as many likes as we can Get on this one. All right. You guys ready? No, yes, here we go one of the things that you've clearly used to overcome this is changing your appearance you you've you've kind of You know, you're you physically changed, haven't you the photographs of you if I look at them No, it's not adolescents. It's called growing and changing. Yeah, but even the shape of your face has changed No, it has not I've had no plastic surgery on my face Just my nose It helped me breathe better so I can hit higher notes. All right, Chase. What do you got? We see some immediate pre swallow behavior here as soon as the subject of the question comes out, which is a stress indicator I Think it's odd that when almost anyone would use a left to right Timeline when talking about growing up. He goes right to left. I've never seen this in 20 years Maybe you guys have But I think that might be a glimpse into how he's viewing aging or his desire to age on a timeline kind of going backwards and His hands kind of waving away the accusation. You can see it down towards the bottom of your screen, but he is a Professional dancer from a very young age. So I think that might be well within his baseline It's in many of his other videos His blink rate is 13 throughout the video until the man mentions shape of your face and the blink rate goes from 13 to 74 during during this denial And somebody with this much cosmetic Stuff kind of going on with their face Their blink rate and word choice might just be all you really have to go on I'll pass it to you, Greg Yeah, so for me I look at him he starts off with a downright and a deep swallow and his chin is down just to touch There's some baggage already between him and martin bashear. I think by this point of the interview This is he's going at him if you go watch the special This is late when he's going after some issues and you can see those that hard eye contact And I'm with you chase his skin around his face is like a cloth. It's just loose. I mean it's there Everything's tucked. Everything's tight. There's no I think he's in his 40s here give or take And there is no like there are no lines or any of that kind of thing There's a ton of other stuff going on with him here. This is okay. We know he's not telling the truth based on autopsy They found Um cuts behind his ears or scars behind his ears on both sides of his nose. So he had something else done So if he's saying no, I just I haven't had anything done. It's just aging Then we know it's not true. So we're starting to get a baseline for what he looks like when he's being deceptive I would also say this guy is a master of Illusion for lack of a better term. He's great at redirects with his hands and with his body that whole moonwalk thing That it looks like he's floating is him. That's what he's masterful at movement So the hand is not an accident with him. I think chase. I think you're dead on it's just something he does And he is masterful at the way he communicates and creating an image And that's all you're seeing here is the image that he's created and when he says out loud Well, it's just puberty. Well, I've been watching you since before puberty after puberty And way way after puberty and I've seen changes That's what I would have said to him and put him back on nazi But you don't see that martin bashear and it's not like martin bashear is afraid to be aggressive and nasty So i'm surprised he didn't go there mark. What do you got? Yeah, so bashear loads the question really he frames it with the idea of Control of the body as a coping mechanism He says you've had to control your body as a way of coping and my guess is is it's loaded on purpose in order to trigger Jackson into something a little more aggressive, which I think it it it does Yeah, absolutely agree. We're we're dealing here with one of the biggest stars in the world somebody who and one of the greatest Controllers of movement in the world one of the most brilliant dancers ever So we've got to expect this is somebody who can control the the body mass there, certainly Um So we get this emphatic wipe gesture, which is what I would call a moderator gesture It's there to say, hey, we're done with that. We're wiping that clean. We're never going there again. It's big It's an it's an emphatic one Um, no plastic surgery very emphatic no plastic surgery Just my nose. So there's a qualifier there But it's great how that works, isn't it you start with an absolutely emphatic denial And then you put a little qualifier on the end that absolutely changes the emphatic nature of the denial What I want to pick up on here, which I think is really interesting is you see his his fingers and he's got three Um Bandages on them. This was something he did as well as having white socks or wearing gloves or shooting his cuffs Uh, so that you'd be able to see his movement on stage Something he picked up from from gene kelly, you know other great dancers of hollywood Ways of being able to see the body move on stage and apparently he put these white bandages on his fingers as well So you'd be able to see those move But why is he wearing them in an interview? So There's no we don't need to see his fingers move. He's not on a big stage anymore What's interesting in my mind is these become symbolic of damage already It's like a child going look at look at the boo-boos that I have look at the Look look I'm injured here So I'm I'm just picking up on that imagery there that doesn't need or these are devices These are stage devices, but now I think they've become an image of hurt and pain Uh, is that something he wears all the time to display? Is that something to get our sympathy? With him not sure at this point. Just interest me scott. What do you got? All right. Well, I think he's ready for this question Obviously, he would be because he knew they were going to talk about this. So he's talked with his lawyers He's talked with whoever he can consults with to say, how do I approach this? What's it because he's one of those guys he wants to make sure He controls everything that comes out about him From the way he sounds the way it looks and just everything you were saying mark Everything so what we're seeing here when he starts asking the questions You're right chase this blink rate goes to almost nothing And he gets really still and just stares at him as he's talking because he's taking the sand He doesn't know the exact question. He knows the question's coming But how's it going to be shaped how's it going to be forward? So he's learning that as it comes in and then um His when he starts asking his mouth opens a little bit Like he's ready like he's going to jump the gun, but he doesn't he holds back. I think that's what that looks like I can't really tell if that was just something that happened from her as just as reaction a limbic reaction Or it was just getting ready to start talking Then we see his head go back when he starts before he answers as it starts going back In that dominance gesture saying I here's here. I'm getting ready to give you the answer Here's what's really happening. So this head goes back and exposes that throat duty talks about um when when You're I'm growing, you know that the changes you're seeing came from growing and changing He starts using his illustrators for those types of things and those really they're not hitting hard on the words where they should I know I always talk about that But they're not hitting where they should be hitting and actually if you miss we've seen give an extra one When he when he gives that and then does one extra That denotes it indicates that he's not sure about that because he knows it's not true He knows that those things have changed since he was a child if you look at when he was a child You when he turned into the michael jackson everybody knew You couldn't say that's him you you couldn't put those two together You couldn't say if that was his kid you wouldn't say wow he looks like his dad He looks nothing like his he would look nothing like him. He looks nothing like he used to look um And then yeah when he wipes away that that thing about uh when he asked him um Your face has changed and he wipes away that that question You'll see that a lot with with people who are telling stories about seeing a ghost that you knew wasn't true Or it probably isn't true because they'll say oh, here's what happened I did this and this and this and that happened and they'll wipe away what they just said and in this case He's wiping away that that question. I'll also get rid of it. We're getting rid of that. We're not going to do You know, here's the answer. Forget that. I'm going to give you the answer um And when he points to his nose when he says he's making a big production about this and like mark would say It's almost like a chaff in one of one of greg's things chaff and redirect Uh, what do you call it a heartly ism where it's chaff and redirect He says he does the big thing it was and I can talk about nose is one of my things as much so big I should get some of that done maybe But he points at his nose like in a big way make a big deal about it then moves to the other stuff So this I would say is for me I'm seeing tons of deception here tons of deception and he gets if you'll notice you'll listen to the volume of things It's quieter as he goes along fading facts is what I Had to and then sometimes we do see his eyebrows go up as he's nodding and another heartly ism Requesting approval. So that's one of that that that's what I'm seeing in there so one of the things that you've clearly used to overcome this is changing your appearance you you've you've kind of You know, you're you've physically changed, haven't you the photographs of you if I look at them No, it's called adolescence. It's called growing and changing Yeah, but even the shape of your face has changed. No, it has not. I've had no plastic surgery on my face. Just my nose It helped me breathe better so I can hit higher notes. That'd be good. Yeah, good All right But are you are you Michael? Are you honestly saying that you've only ever had one operation? two You've had two As I can remember. Yeah, just to mark. What do you got? Yeah, so I think I see distraction here this this two that comes in and it's very big in the screen Listen, he knows how to perform. He knows what's going to fill up a screen He knows how to sound in a way that's going to uh redirect you disturb you So so he makes a big big impression with that two And does it sound quite childlike to you? It's quite innocent. Isn't it's like a three-year-old, you know Yeah, how many fingers am I holding up to? You know, it's just beautifully Childlike and demonstrative. So that's of interest To me and then he qualifies it as I can remember so You know that again completely negates How emphatic he was at the start. Uh, there's another emphatic, uh, hand wipe Gesture to go look. We're done with that. That's over. Let's move on Yeah, that's all I got on that one Greg, what are you got? Yeah, so I love the fact we're both on the two-year-old I always say every person all of us included are nothing but two-year-olds covered in scarring and hairs That's all we are. We just keep layering and layering and layering interestingly The earlier you get isolation or above the law and I don't mean literally about the law in this case But the earlier you get to a point where you don't get the same inputs as other people The quicker you freeze And by that I mean a rested development of sorts so that a person who becomes very famous at eight years old imagine What their inputs become adulation you can do no wrong And they freeze to some degree in those kinds of behaviors now I'm not talking about him specifically because I was never exposed to michael jackson But that too If you ask a child a question and they're trying to lie to you they're emphatic because that's what they do They're emphatic and then he redirects. He's doing all that stuff. He does. I can hear whoo You know doing something as he moves his hands around when I watch this. I just see michael the product And I see him working you and then the other piece I see is him look back to his right and recall Somebody's coached him that he needs to say as I recall I just about guarantee you so he's not putting himself in a bind and we all know that if I can't remember I can't be held accountable, right? That's the whole thing. That's the way we go But I see a child here and you'll see it pop up again in the next segment You'll see childlike behavior and I think it's what he's gotten away with his entire life And he probably is not exactly what my army career personality would think of as an adult Because he's never been forced to be that adult. So I think that's where he's at Uh chase. What do you got? So we see uh this hand gesture of two He's using the back of his hand And I spent some time today looking at videos. This is a strong deviation from his normal behavior. He's a very open palm communicator And this is followed by a short eye flutter And eye flutter is is something we do that some Body language people will call eye blocking But we also another reason that humans do this is when our cpu is processing a bunch of information Our eyes will blink a lot and They're asking him a baseline question here, which is pretty basic And his eyes go to nine nine o'clock as we're seeing the video his eyes move to nine o'clock Which would make me if i'm the interviewer That immediate eye movement i'm gonna i'm gonna remember that And i'm gonna say i'm gonna check this in a few seconds to see if it goes back to this spot again When i'm asking him about the car he drives where he lives the street address What his house looks like that kind of thing And that's important And there's a use of what's called an exclusion statement here as far as I know as far as I recall if memory serves Those kinds of things There's two different ways we can judge this on deception For one if i'm asking scott Hey scott does the guy that lives six doors down from you make crystal meth in his garage And scott goes well, uh, not to the best of my knowledge That's not deceptive But if I ask scott if scott are you making crystal meth in your garage and you go, uh, no not as far as memory serves So the the way you ask a question determines whether or not those exclusion statements are Deceptive or not And we see the hand wave the wiping again And there's some very prominent lip-licking behavior right after his answer with some Um And this is just a hygienic gesture and a hygienic gesture is anything designed to improve your appearance And this is more likely to be deceptive and his blink rate again goes from 26 to the high 80s It was too hard to calculate the exact number Scott, what do you got? Well, all right. Well when one thing if you'll listen to him If you'll listen to this you hear this little tapping noise It's him tapping his feet and his hands on his legs because when he when he first comes in he says, um Um, when he gives that gesture of two then you hear him put his hand down his lap and you hear it slapped out like That's it. That's all you're getting. That's the answer and that's as far as i'm going like it's so it's like two That's it. So that's that's what i'm seeing there. So he's trying so he knows that's not right So but he's trying to put a stop to it before he goes any further um And so those are the adapters you're hearing his feet tapping in his hands which denotes he's being Nervous he's getting wound up here. He's getting getting wired a little bit um And when you say when he asked me if he if he's had when he says how many you know If you had more than one he says i've only had two you've only had two as far as i can remember I remember every surgery i've had i've had three And i remember and i have a story about every one of them I can tell you something happened before and something happened after if i came to you guys and i said And i was going to have Two nose jobs if i got one done and i said i said i want to go have another nose job You go you having another one i'd be like yeah because you know i want to get it needs to be even smaller than that You guys would talk behind my back. It would be a really big deal I wouldn't be thinking and you would say you don't need to be a big deal. I would remember that Well, maybe he's talking about two points of entry nose and behind the ears. It could be could be All right, that's what i got you guys ready by the way scott if you said you were gonna get two nose jobs I would pay for the second one But are you are you michael are you honestly saying that you've only ever had one operation? two You've had two As i can remember. Yeah, just two. All right. Here we go If i if i look at some of the photographs of you in your adolescence. Yeah, i change people change But but even after when you did the thriller album your Your lips are very different now to what they were there, but they do look different. Sorry. You don't think so Nope All right, greg what do you got? Yeah, so in my many many many interrogations. I never heard anybody go. Nope The way he did like a child at the end of that that reminded me of like a six-year-old saying i'm not doing it Nope, nope. Nope. Nope again somebody who got away with a whole lot From six years old till now is talking to me is what I would think in the interrogation room And I would jack him up pretty good I mean it wouldn't be physical, but I would certainly go after him and start going back to that child And making him feel inferior for something, you know, I would go after him But that's the weirdest thing for a 40-something year old man to say nope Nope And what he's in effect doing is the same thing a four-year-old or six-year-old does he's drawing a fence and saying You're not getting anything else. I'm done with it. That's that in terms of are those his real lips Are they the original lips he had before well, we all know better, but He's licking his lips He's his blink rate is up. This is probably the highest we're going to see his blink rate And it's more of a flutter as he's trying to deal with what he's seeing And it's that arrested development behavior again. All of this is a little kid going. Nope. Nope not going to do it Nope. Nope. And that's all I hear when I'm listening to him. I would again. I don't We all know better We know that it was puberty puberty changed me. Okay. Well, let's take a picture of you now 10 years ago 10 years before that and 10 years have you been in puberty since Like the wall was that when puberty hit you and then you've been through a long drawn-out puberty through the wall and thriller And every one of those things is what he should do you take apart his story with facts And we've got a great baseline for lying michael here. This is good. We know he's lying So we're seeing what he normally does scott. What do you got? all right I think we're seeing the tension build here because you hear that tapping is going through the roof at this point And and we'll be able to talk about this Chase is when when he's lip it licking his lips here that might be a a pre-violence thing when you see somebody they'll get back They'll They'll start that sometimes not not every time so that that could be that that's one thing I see there I don't see that as a grooming gesture at that point because he hadn't said lips yet because he does it before he says lips almost like he Is bringing attention to him and then And I think he's reaching his point of I've had enough with bishere. Okay mark. What do you got? Yeah, so to that pre-violence piece. I think I think we see ironically some thinning of the lips and and I think he's he's truly getting angry and I think that's You know the lip licking that we're getting there is something about fight and flight starting to happen moisture changing in the mouth those lips thinning He's getting quite upset aggressive I think you know to the point of bashir. I think he's playing quite innocent In this in his line of questioning, you know, he's just going, you know my point of view I don't quite get this. This is kind of odd Playing the innocent in this which may be even compounding how innocent Jackson is getting one last thing on this is just the emphatic shaking of the head here Again, it's it's you know, we always talk about a strong positive denial And and so you might go hey look at that, you know, non-verbal strong positive denial. No, it's just too much It's too much when somebody's shaking their head, you know one two That's enough one two three. Maybe not one doesn't have to be that big in the no At the end of it really buttons that one down, you know Even though this is the king of pop. This is a complete individual. This is somebody who is is irreplaceable on the planet There are still behaviors that you expect to see which are a little more universal And so you don't expect an emphatic denial at that Big kind of level even from somebody like him chase. What do you got? Yeah, I agree. That's a very aggressive Head shaking no Is many times the same way you see a kid do that in the middle of your Question once they know the topic of the question they begin the denial And Don't see that very often in adult if I if I look at some of the photographs of you in your adolescence Yeah, I change people change but but even after when you did the thriller album your Your lips are very different now to what they were there, but they do look different. Sorry. You don't think so Nope, he's close. We're good. Yeah Were you aware that Jordan Chandler For his family on his behalf filed a litigation lawsuit against you Yes Were you aware that at some point in time in that lawsuit Adrienne McManus gave her deposition I'm not positive Your answer confuses me How do you mean you're not positive You don't know whether she gave her deposition All right chase. What do you got? So for this one, we're starting to see the eye flutter behavior is a great indicator of stress for Michael And even when he's answering honestly and he's under stress. We'll see these this eye flutter and this actually Scores a 23 on the behavioral table of elements. It's like it looks like the periodic table but it's all human behavior on here and it's made to score stress and relaxation or just deception And we'll break it down just really quick. He has lip retraction, which is a four and the lip retraction happens before his answer And then we has a deviation recall of eye movement So instead of looking at his eye home where he normally would look to recall most the stuff he remembers He looks a different direction That would be another four then he has lip licking which is he's wetting the lips a hygienic gesture, which is a four and lip compression Afterwards So if you compress your lips before you answer a question, that's typical of someone thinking really hard about the answer So it's less deceptive. So if I asked you what'd you do on wednesday night and you said, well I went out to dinner So that's more likely to be truthful so but lip compression after your statement or after your answer Is still a four and then there's some immediate emotional recall eye movement or it's an internal dialogue or internal conversation After his statement, which is a three And a second lip retraction, which means the lips past the barrier of the teeth Which is a four giving him a score of 23. Finally, I'll just say the cardinal sin here the attorney Asked a question and then offers an answer and only Allows michael just to say yes or no, which is a one thing when i'm teaching attorneys You never do that. You always want them to answer as much as possible You don't want to offer them the answer to the question and then just let them confirm or deny great Yeah, so the interrogator instructor in me is going to give you what that's called an interrogation That's called a leading question. Yes. No Any of those that allow you an out an easy out? Did you will you have you are you all those are bad questions? Questions listed in narrative response So you ask a question that's open-ended and they roll off their tongue and people can't shut up Once they start talking They loot they leak information with stressors and with illustrators that punctuate what you're thinking And all of us would sit over and go aha that matters. This doesn't and we'd run right through it interestingly when you ask him the question You talk about a postural bump. He does what I call target shrinking. He goes down into like a little Divit and I think all he does is lean back But it's interesting. I think in part because he moves for a living He moves more than I would if I were in that same chair because movements who he is and it's how he's wired The other interesting pieces when they start to ask him questions And they ask him did is he aware? There's suddenly a rise in adrenaline in him. You can't miss it You can see the fight or flight and the moving his mouth And then is he's trying to internalize what they're thinking if you have kids You know they do this you have to teach them not to do it so they don't look stupid when they get to school And that's when they're writing or coloring They're doing all this all mammals all mammals when they're thinking move their mouth It's a learned behavior to do away with it. I train horses when they get a topic They start moving their mouth is just because we are milk drinkers I suppose there's something in our wiring that causes us to move our mouth when we're thinking So you go from there you watch him He starts to think and then when he's asked a question about whether he knew you see him go up into his right And that's the same thing we saw from him when he was coached before probably an indicator He's coaching internalizing answering the question in a way. He's been taught all that he's easy to read You can watch him across the way You can be a musical genius and not necessarily genius in other arenas and he's in not his arena at the moment So here we go mark. What do you got? Yeah, so a breathing rate is right up a double what it should be I think at resting the way I read breathing rate is just to look for that kind of area of a collar Usually a button something like that And you'll just see it move even in low quality video like this Look at that area and you can see it going up and down you can read the breathing rate really really easily You can and all you need to do is just breathe along to it and see how you feel Because how you're feeling is going to be indicative of how he's feeling There are some things which are very very similar in every human being your levels of oxygen and carbon dioxide Are going to have an effect on your endocrine system That's going to shoot off some neurotransmitters in your brain and you'll get a feeling immediately around this Yeah, absolutely Greg he goes back in his chair and and it's quite significant even for somebody who we think would be moving a lot We see him go very still and then he moves back. So instantly I go. Okay. That's notable. That's significant I think what happens here To all this all these points here of being Those being yes or no answers is he realizes it's a yes or no answer And so there isn't a way for him to really obfuscate get around this In any way and you know, he has to has to go with a a yes Um and the blink rate goes up massively at that point as well. So he's clearly under pressure We see the swallow reflex as well Second time around he finds a way to obfuscate there He finds a way around it and in fact just as chase was saying the the the lawyer offers him an out and you see him smile because You know a beautiful moment has happened Where he's been given the out for for for free So, yeah, great lesson there in in not in what not to do if you're trying to get info out of people Don't don't offer them the out there. So scott. What do you got? This reminds me of of Interrogating or you know interviewing and in bezler He's just doing all the things that you see during that when he asked him the question He begins the question. He freezes doesn't blink This is this is as still as he gets from anything we've seen so far Super still and then he takes that little pause after he finishes with with the question To make sure to line up in his head. He's got that quite the answer ready to go He knows what the answer is going to be but he's thinking all that comes with it Is this what I'm supposed to be saying? Yeah, we talked about someone who's being deceptive before we talk about weight Your brain says it has to do three things You know make sure weight has to think up alive and deliver the lie So what he's doing is he's his brain saying hang on a minute. Let's make sure that's okay So that's that's why we're seeing the pause there. He goes back. That's the classic moving back From being dishonest. He's not people say, oh, you move back where you tell a lie or you're being deceptive Happens quite often doesn't happen every time but that's what we're seeing here because he's ready Because he knows the answer then he scoots back as he starts giving that answer We see his eyes flutter You see those the eyebrows go those eyelids go up and down really really quickly because that's bothering because when he says yes Not only is he saying yes, I know he's he's accused accused me of this in other words But he's thinking about all those things that went on Leading up to leading up to that whether they happened or not. I'm not saying they happen But I'm saying if something were to happen, that's what you would see He's he's thinking about those things that goes through the the event not the details Just the event happening at that point then Greg and I do Do a thing in this thing called the true crime workshop Where we have a whole module on realizing the threat When the investigators are there and they start asking you questions. Oh, wait, I'm in trouble They're they're asking me so so all the things that's what that's what we're seeing here That's when he swallows when he realizes this is not good You know, he knows it's not good anywhere. It wouldn't be there But that's when we see that big swallow he takes right after that when he realizes a threat And again, he freezes and when that second question comes That's when his mouth starts going nuts I mean he starts chewing on his mouth. We see every kind of of mouth Indicator you can or q you can name we see it in there. It's just like it's all of them right there That's in that little three second spot there. It goes nuts with that That lets me know or that suggests to me that he's saying to us with his body language I'm really nervous. I'm really nervous and this is really bothering me Then the guy rephrases the question so he can say yes or no. So that's yeah, so chase. There you go. That was the real This is a bad move on his part Yeah, hey one qualifier. I think I said all mammals move their mouth when they're thinking not all mammals Don't know. I've never sampled them all the ones I deal with do Humans especially move their mouth when they're thinking unless they're taught otherwise Milton trying to find that in fact check me. I'm sure Yeah, yeah, you'll get that what that's for days here. Okay. Were you aware that Jordan Chandler Or his family on his behalf filed a litigation a lawsuit against you Yes Were you aware at that at some point in time in that lawsuit? Adrienne McManus gave her deposition I'm not positive Your answer confuses me. How do you mean you're not positive? You don't know whether she gave her deposition exactly Very good One of the ways I remember it starting is um, you know, Michael just sort of starting to touch my legs and touch my crotch over my pants it progressed to Him performing oral sex on me him showing me how to perform oral sex on him All right, Mark. What do you got? Yeah, so here's what I got. I got um, actually quite a lot of downward intonation here, so Uh, I talked about intonation quite a bit. You got downward intonation. You got straight intonation got upward intonation Just as a generalized model downward intonation tends to be more secure more certain upward intonation Tends to be a question and straight into intonation tends to be Just you know a factor statement. We're getting downward intonation here. So there's there's uncertainty. We will get some upward intonation coming here later on But we get looks for approval when the acts escalate So there's no looks for approval on just the the touching but when the sexual acts come in There's more looks for approval and some slight upward intonation on I think the word Him Yeah, that's all I've got on on that one. There we go. Uh chase. What do you got? So there's a distinct shoulder shrug when he says the word one of the things I remember we see his shoulder go up and He says one of the ways I remember it starting This statement offers an escape that there could be more there might be more somewhere else He also uses you know and just starting to So there's a lot of distancing language here There's some internal conversation instead of recall with his eye movements here, which I think is a pretty strong data point So if I'm the interviewer that would be something I need to look into And he prefaces the action with you know the words you know And I'm going to keep going through this and explain Some stuff here towards the end all statements have or a lot of his statements have an upward tone eyebrow flash for acceptance He continues a lot of eye contact during the accusations So the eye contact goes way up during any kind of accusation of misconduct and the eye contact is normal and varied during other parts of his stories And he continues to exhibit and I I spent I will admit I've never done this much research on video before So I spent two hours today walking through his his baseline his other interviewers and He continues to exhibit this exaggerated Expression and behavior It's a slower more rehearsed speech During all the accusations and if you watch the tape of this You'll see a huge difference between when he's speaking about everything else And then his voice changes and he does something called a vocal fry During the stories about the events with michael many times in this actual interview tape here So Why is that maybe not deceptive? Number one, it's a stressful event number two I think a lot of this looking for approval and upward tonality Is looking for approval. Can I say this on camera? Can we can I talk about this in the open? and Up talk where people finish their sentences with invisible question marks Is kind of a cool thing for people to do So it's permissive speak has become very popular and he cuts his hair like an instagrammer and has this uh face stuff going on right there So he's very much into the The forward leaning part of the culture which is embracing and hugging and celebrating up talk And uncertainty in speech declarative sentences are not cool anymore. Greg Yeah, there's another handful of things here that make me wonder of course now Let's also frame this this is the guy who took the stand to defend michael jackson and said nothing ever happened so Under oath took the stand was the star witness So he's got a reason to feel a little apprehensive as he's now saying something else So a lot of these things to your point chase may or may not be deception This is when you have to take into account What is going on in a person's head and why we'll tell you none of this makes us read minds We would want to poke and ask questions after this But he has a request for approval and a grief muscle that little archie muscle right there That pops up when he starts talking about this I I also jumped on the one of the ways I remember this starting. That's a long distance But also this is a man admitting to having sexual michael jackson as a child Regardless of whether you feel like you did anything wrong or not There has to be all kinds of emotion and baggage and those things associated with it Considering where he's at in the middle of this documentary So i'm not going to try to pretend to understand where he's at in his head because none of us can Every one of those kinds of things would be different He does make a lot of eye contact and he asks a lot for approval Now there are lots of reasons you could do that a victim of sexual assault a victim of Molestation may be asking for approval to see if you think they're okay as they're telling you this story Or were they part of the problem? So there are lots of reasons for this I also see some grief as the corners of his mouth turned down When he's telling his story and this is a relatively young man. He's also awkward in telling the story So there's a lot of body language here that makes me look at him and go What's going on in there, but I also have to take into account He could have committed perjury to protect michael jackson. He loved michael jackson in those days And I don't mean that in terms of sexual anything. This is a kid who loved michael jackson And then there's all kinds of feelings of guilt We know in people who are sexually molested and that kind of thing So there's a tremendous amount going on in a person's head and what I want you to know Is you can't use body language to read a person's mind? We need to ask the next question and that question doesn't get asked here Mark, what do you got? I've I've gone Scott. So, okay All right. Well in this case i'm seeing a lot of loping Which is just kind of like going along telling the story. He seems comfortable with telling this from an uncomfortable space So he's told this a lot of times and and if I was in the situation and it was explained to you guys I definitely wouldn't be using the same vernacular in terms and ways of presenting that he is to her and tv as I would with you guys So i'm sure he's used another uh wording for this before But as he's trying to make it get it concise and compressed and get it in so his mother can hear it So people can hear it and understand what happened without being too graphic That's the part of the uncomfortable stuff. I think chase is talking about seeing there and part of it when he shakes his head Is he's explaining it? It's not that he's most people say well, he's shaking his head. No as he's explaining it. So that means no That's not what's happening here as he's going through this He's his his brain is saying man that we shouldn't so much comes with it with with what he's saying because Like greg was saying he's protected this before and he said no it didn't happen He's so he's going against that there's a there's a lot going on in there besides just delivering this story in my opinion So as he's delivering he's saying and he's shaking his head. No, he's just his brain saying this is embarrassing I shouldn't have done this part where I told him I shouldn't have I or that that it wasn't true all these things that I said somebody else was lying about that happened to me as well He's dealing with that. So so that's one of the reasons he's shaking his head. No um I think he's embarrassed and frustrated at the same time I think we're seeing a lot of those things come out when I've dealt with situations like this before and talking to somebody about it I've seen behavior that looks just like this When uh, and I've told you I've given you a couple of examples before greg I've told you about a couple of And it's a situation where they're embarrassed and they're they're telling it and the story he's telling has been He's said all this before but it's been boiled down to a statement More than a statement just a few statements to give that person to tell him what happened As it went along. So he's telling what happened as he goes through this without being really graphic In other words, he's he's being graphic, but he's but he's not he's getting right up next to graphic before he starts Starts into that. So that's the uncomfortable thing. I think we're seeing and all that one of the ways I remember it starting is um, you know, michael just sort of starting to touch my legs and touch my crotch over my pants it progressed to Him performing oral sex on me him showing me how to perform oral sex on him. All right, we're good. Yeah All right, did it scare you? Did you think it was wrong? The couple days prior to to the abuse starting he started touching me just in the sense of like Panned on my leg lots of hugs kissing my forehead Rubbing my hand so there'd been this kind of development of physical closeness that was happening already that felt Like a father just felt amazing As michael started doing these sexual acts. He started talking to me about god brought us together We love each other and this is how we love each other. We love each other and this is how we show each other our love All right, I'll go first on this one um Again, his illustrators are very demonstrative. They're really big when someone's not being honest Or let's say they're they they're giving signs of deception like we saw in the michael jackson ones His illustrators were small. They're only big when he's batten away those those things we talked about earlier These are big. He's using and he's very fluid. He's loping along telling the story He does have vocal fry here as well But I think that's part of his personality in this case So we're seeing these big demonstrative Illustrators and his voice is staying at a pretty strong tone. There's not a lot of backing off of what he's saying Even though he's talking about something that's that's really embarrassing Another thing you'll you'll notice in this is the the mirroring of the crossed legs in there between the two guys They're both and the way they're sitting there are two ways you can go in and cross your legs And you can be the masculine person you sit down and you give it one of these So here's what happened and I'm being a guy. What are we going to do? You know about all this then you've got that don draper type Where you come in and they do that and they give it one of these And this is more of an alpha situation where you don't say what are we going to do? You're like, here's what's going to happen next and you're the one explaining to what's what's happening So in that case they've taken on that persona of i'm here because it's about me And i'm telling you what's happening is combined with those things we're talking about him and you go a second ago That's what's given them the confidence to tell these things. We're part of that confidence They're here or i'm here to tell you what happened and that's what he's doing. I believe again He's telling what happened in these cases and um Yeah, I think I'll I'll stop there. Greg. What do you got? Yeah, I usually associate large illustrators with a true story However, if they're way too demonstrative, I wonder and you know that all this stuff Makes me feel uncomfortable now. Also. I will say when a person feels guilt or remorse about something They also can you know, they'll rehearse and get everything together before they show out there I don't know this guy's baseline and shame on me. I should have gone and watched a video If his hands are normally big talking then this is real But if all that is overly rehearsed Then shame on him, right? I can't I haven't seen his baseline so hard for me to say We usually associated large movements lots of illustrators with telling the truth And he does have a very clearly enunciated story as he's going through this It's not just his hands if he's acting and mark I'll pass it to you after this if he's acting he's doing a pretty damn good job because his gestures Hand movements his illustrators His face everything is punctuating at the same time There's congruency is the term you would use in body language in the messaging if his messaging is this good I don't know what he does for living these days, but he should be in advertising if his messaging is this good And he can rehearse and do it. It looks fluid. It looks natural. It looks believable And other than that certainly I see a little grief. I see you know a little bit of facial muscle movement that may indicate Something else, but again Guys, there's a ton of money in this entire thing. I did read that they were not paid to do this show But you know Michael Jackson had a ton of money There was a ton of money tied up in the lawsuit The lawsuit they got settled out of court with the kid they were talking about jordan schandler That was for a lot of money. This kid took the stand Who knows what he got for that not saying he did or didn't but at the end of the day There's a lot of reasons for this guy to show nervous body languages He's delivering this message and his message is congruent Face hands words all at the same time and that's hard to to fake in my opinion So I'm gonna pitch that to the expert on being able to fake it mark And mark mark before you start let me let me let me throw this up because I forgot to add this to my thing The first books I'll read of yours. You always talked about the truth plane plane and the passion plane And I don't know if you're gonna get into this here But as we go through as we explain what his hands are doing in the truth plane and the passion plane And the differences in those Yeah, yeah, so so Greg I got it I got the same things written down here, which is clear illustrators And they're congruent with the story. They're very descriptive So I think some of the kind of big demonstrative nature of it when he's coming up into passion, which is chest height here It's because he is energized about the story. We do get Descriptions of of of height. I believe and and and stroking the head and During all of these descriptions of the act You get downward internations So there's a lot of congruency and certainty around the acts that happened At the start you see a lovely little gesture down in the in the truth plane here Yeah, which is around navel height around the couple of days beforehand And he's and he's saying, yeah, I don't know whether it was this day or that day And he has upward intonation on that So there's uncertainty about the exact day that he's talking about and then we get when he gets into the acts clear clear downward intonation And demonstrative gesture which fits in the rhythm of what he's saying Then we get on to how he felt around it so the feeling of Of a father and then we get upward intonation. So he's very clear on the acts that happened He's not so clear about exactly what days before leading up to it. They were And then he's he has uncertainty around the relationships and the feelings that went on because then we get the upward Intonations around the idea of father God Those are all things that are questionable What it was said to him the motives the relationship is now questionable I don't think it's questionable for him as to the acts that happened the physical things that that happened Um, I think you're right. It's pretty tough to to falsify such Such a a kind of a coalition of information All at the same time. Yes, you could rehearse it. You could rehearse it. You could rehearse it Doesn't feel rehearsed doesn't feel like Doesn't even feel like good acting It's just like somebody telling telling the story as they see it. There's too much variation too much complexity For that to be a rehearsed piece in my in my opinion there, but chase. What do you what do you got? Yeah, I think there's a lot going on here if you look at this I went back and I watched him several years ago all the way up to the videos where he was on jimmy kimmel And he is very demonstrative with this gesture. So that is definitely his baseline And what I thought was interesting here is his His body is completely fluid and speaking about the casual things that took place when he gets to the abuse His body closes up the humorous bone this bone right here gets closer to his body And our body is programmed from How who knows how many millions of years of evolution? To protect arteries when we get scared So fear makes our shoulders come up It makes our neck go like this and these Meadow clastoid muscles come out and they jump in front of the carotid artery We have a brachial artery down here that squeezes in the shoulders come up to protect the neck So fear makes our body protect arteries And we see some of that here towards the end when he's doing this So he shows more confirmation glances at the end more eyebrow flashing at the end There's more upward tone at the end and there's no more body Narration except for small hand movements So we go from big and they get smaller and smaller towards the end when he's talking about the actual abuse as as he calls it and I think that This is not Even if I were going ignoring the trauma ignoring everything else just going off behavior This still would not score above a 12 on the behavioral table of elements. This would be a 10.5 Did it scare you? Did you think it was wrong the couple days? prior To to the abuse starting he started touching me just in the sense of like Panned on my leg lots of hugs kissing my forehead Rubbing my hand so there'd been this kind of development of physical closeness that was happening already that felt Like a father just felt amazing As michael started doing these sexual acts. He started talking to me about god brought us together We love each other and this is how we love each other. We love each other and this is how we show each other our love He said I taught him how to french kiss Um, and then it moves on to oral sex But it's you frightened or thinking this is weird or wrong. No, no, it's in the context of a Loving close relationship. All right, Greg. What do you got? So here's a red flag for you for me. This guy says you taught me To do x if you go watch this Bashir documentary There's a part where michael jackson's on the train with a lot of children And you're going to find him saying to a kid when the kid says you'll have to teach me to moonwalk. He goes You all taught me to moonwalk Oh, you know how to do I learned it from you guys Well, that's an interesting turn of phrase for this guy to know if that didn't happen And that's a one-off in that video now. Maybe he said that all the time to kids But maybe he didn't maybe this is it other than that you can see this kid This guy has a lot of requests for approval as he's telling the story But his illustrators all of his messaging is toward Gail as he's talking to her and everything is pushing toward her I'm not going to spend a lot of time because for me that phrase Makes me want to go and talk to michael jackson Of course, we can't but and say what happened because I would even use the wording and say In interrogation what we refer to is guilty knowledge Or something that other people wouldn't know about those words when you start to bring them up in the interview or in the interrogation Then you start to get demonstrative body language coming out of somebody because that's private Conversation that occurred and we have already seen that he doesn't mask all of his body language So if in fact he did and that was private language We would have an end to his psyche and going after him. That's what I got Scott, what do you got on this one? All right mine's going to be pretty short too because The personality difference in this is where we're seeing that dramatic difference in their illustrators and their approach and their tone and everything in this Even when he's his request for approval, which you're talking about Greg But he's he's he's still loping along everything sounds good and clean. He's just not as loud. He's just not as as demonstrative as as the other guy And for his personality though, I think those are large illustrators In that case, I'm not sure he's one sits around doing those things like the other guy was doing but he's using Larger illustrators at this at this point mark. What do you got? Yeah, I would say his illustrators seem to match the story They are they are big, but they seem to match the rhythm is right There's there's we we see here downward intonation on no no So there's some certainty around that, you know interesting you bring up Greg this idea of you taught me how to do that. That's a status raise You know, that would be a classic within a grooming procedure Not saying that's the case. Just kind of rings a bell Raises a flag for me around that What's most interesting for me is the reaction of of the first subject that we looked at As the second subject is being interviewed and what we see from him is a is a A big set of adapters and shift As we talk about it was all in the context of a loving Relationship he shifts on that I think there's a very different idea about what the relationship signified one For for the second subject was in the context of a loving relationship No, no felt felt fine For the first subject It was a father figure and therefore my guess is is the sexual acts don't ring as being wholesome and correct For that particular relationship that was being set up and that I think is why we get that adapter that big shift as he um especially around the ideas of Were you frightened? No, no because it was a it was a loving relationship. I think our first subject was frightened. It wasn't comfortable For him. So there's more stress. I think around these Ideas for the first subject rather than the second subject there. Uh chase. What have you got? Yeah, I think this is the most truthful video we've seen so far or the least deceptive we could say The motion is fluid the recall is genuine and when she asked if he's frightened We see something very tell tale Of truth telling that she says were you frightened and then continue speaking? But he starts shaking his head before he says that he wasn't frightened So I think we're seeing a lot of the valve is open so to speak that he's he's willing to answer Before the question is even finished being asked So I think he's very open very honest and to your point mark. I absolutely agree that he views this in a different way and maybe he he's viewing this in a way where He's modified that view over time for catharsis or to to make it a little bit better Yeah, and when you think about if you think then about you know, why would have this person Committed perjury potentially first time around It's a father figure. I mean to be honest if my dad needs me to lie in court for him I'm gonna lie in court for him. It's it's gonna it's gonna happen. So so You know, there's some complex relationships in here Well, and he further says the first guy further says that Now it's his word against nobody's but Michael Jackson told him that if they were discovered They would both their lives would be over and they'd both be in real trouble So There you go go to jail. I think he even said it. Yeah forever. Yeah, their life would be over So so strong relationships of love and threat at the same time Yeah complex He said I taught him how to french kiss Um, and then it moves on to oral sex But it's not you frightened or thinking this is weird or wrong No, no, it's in the context of a loving close relationship Here we go There's no alarm bells going off in your head or any thoughts like that really it's just I love this person and and We're trying to make each other happy. He said I was his first But even as a kid, you don't even know what that means. So you're lovers and your best friends All right, jace, what do you got? We're seeing a continuation with the eyebrow flash for confirmation I think there's a potential the camera angle is strange I think there's a potential grief muscle there when he's saying I love this person if there's not there's asymmetrical head movement on the forehead and Asymmetrical head movement happens if you can see this brain back here natural facial expressions come from right around here Fake ones come from up here in the top this one up here Has been doing it for a couple hundred thousand years This one down here at the bottom has been doing it for a hundred million This one up here our our fake facial expressions or when they're not real tend to be Asymmetrical because that part of the brain is not extremely exercised and tightening the muscles on both sides of the face equally So we do see some of that when we're when we're seeing that the one phrase. I love this person So there's a little One thing in the video. I think the final part when he said lovers and best friends was cut and spliced in And it was not part of this answer. So I'm completely ignoring it Greg what do you got? Yeah, I same thing I call this the organ of communication or connection right your forehead I constantly we constantly use our forehead. We use our forehead to signal recognition We use our forehead to signal grief unintentionally. We ask for approval. We use our forehead in all kinds of ways I browbeat you and You can see he's trying to make connection with the interviewer with gale and he's His brow is constantly moving as he's asking the question and talking But I don't see it as request for approval like i'm lying and I want you to believe me I think it's more of the Vulnerable do you believe me? Do you trust me? Are you judging me kind of a look when the the brow is constantly moving and the he's messaging is Almost like he's asking for approval. His body's getting smaller. I don't see him as lying I don't see a lot signs of deception because I look for messaging to all tie together again His his story is moving along what he's saying Well, it might seem awkward to us for him to say we were in a loving relationship kind of a thing For him at that time, whatever he was told is what his brain is saying or whatever he recalls being told Is what his brain is saying if he's lying he's got his rhythm down all of his body language and his gestures there And he's asking for approval like a child who would have been in the wrong kind of relationship By no fault of his own might do because guys this is how we have to be careful People ask us this all the time when you're asking and interrogating People if you're interviewing somebody who has been the victim of some of a crime It's really easy to confuse their lack of thorough facts With deception because the way our brain works is under duress like the first guy may have been We don't lay down the same kind of memories we do when we are relaxed And you know a child somebody who has gone through this They're going to have memories of things and sketchy pieces And it's very difficult to figure out exactly what's true and what isn't And so you have to try to remove your own biases in either way Whether it's you believe michael jackson did something you don't what we're looking at He's fluid movement that looks like he's signaling what he's saying. That's my Mark. Yeah, thank you uh, yeah Chase completely concur there. Um, I love this person upward inflection on that. So it's more questioning was that was that relationship true? I was his first Upward inflection again questioning. There's uncertainty that that whether that was true odd thing to say to a To a child to raise status there around a sexual act odd Uncertainty is cool now though Yeah, yeah, yes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely uncertainty is is is is cool. It doesn't for me have that That rhythm of the Up talk of the the the coast of america or that West coast west coast up talk valley valley talk So so and and we do, you know, we do get that certainty on no no beforehand So It's not like he's doing up talk on everything Which is what I would get with somebody who's doing it for social reasons to fit in to say i'm one of the group You know listen to my up talk there um Yeah, so a good call is well chase on there's a there's a jump cut in there Which means we we don't quite know what happens the the reason we know that there's a big jump cut in there Is the first subject we see them go from their hand isn't there to their hands up here But the one thing that that does give us is we get to see a self soothing gesture there Which again makes me feel like whatever is being talked about here or before that moment and again We don't know because it jump cuts is He needs to to sue themself around this I think again the the the the relationship to these Acts are very different from each Each subject they're very different experience very different idea of the relationship and what would have been right In that relationship So scott take us home. What do you got right? Well, I've also I've I've seen a couple other interviews with people who have who've been who are Accused them as this as well and one of the guys said He also said he was he was the only one or he was his first This first one he's been like this with so that seems to be a common theme throughout that And with this guy we're talking we're looking at now again. He's he's he's fairly comfortable He's loping and I mean comfortable as in delivering the story in the state that he's in because it's probably the state He gets in every time he's doing that Everything looks the way it should to me the only thing that bothers me As he he places the situation in third person. He separates himself from it Which is quite common in these things because he says you don't understand this and you're not You're not aware of this and you don't do this as he's telling that story And that's when he that's I think this is the only time he does that So that's kind of that kind of bothers me But I know the differences in that but if you're looking for that because I think we've talked about it before That's what's happening here. He's uncomfortable with it. It's something that's a traumatic The thing that's happened to him. So he is separating himself from that's one way to do it So you'll quite often hear him hear the victim talk that way I didn't see any discussion in this one at all either So that's shortened to the point from my part. There's no alarm bells going off in your head Or any thoughts like that really it's just I love this person and and We're trying to make each other happy. He said I was his first But even as a kid, you don't even know what that means. So you're lovers and your best friends So as we go, so if you like what we're doing be sure to subscribe And uh, click that little bell and let you know Oh, we have a video coming out and chase you had something you were to talk about Yeah, we talked a lot about baselining in this video a whole lot about deviations from baseline What a person's baseline is There's some great scientific research on this from accredited universities and well respected journals I put some stuff together. I even made a website for you guys to go to It is scott rouse is handsome dot com you guys can go to this website right now All of the baseline research is there right now Knock it out tan daddy Is that real that's a real website Oh, no, I'm sorry. Oh, no, I'm going there now. Okay. I thought you were missing me. Okay. Oh, man The behavior panel Daddy not comet is available, but oh Dude That's my Lord get the research on the baseline Oh, no, dude. No, is this gonna be a bunch of pictures? That's good That's good. Okay, you got me you stung me