 Fitness and health tech tools work very, very well. Only if you can connect them to behaviors. Remember, at the end of the day, it's all about your behaviors. Don't rely on these tools. Use them like training wheels. Learn about your behaviors. Learn about your cravings. Why do you do what you do? Why do you avoid what you avoid? Learn those things and develop a long-term relationship that lasts forever with health and fitness. I'm curious about your guys' personal journey with these things because we've talked about them early on, especially when we were doing the show, when I was going through the whole process, dieting and stuff like that. I was obviously, I was probably the biggest one on them as far as like pro, all the tech tools. I know you guys kind of don't really, you guys off on on using or whatever. Have you, do you feel like your opinion about them has changed multiple times? Have you felt like since day one, you've been consistent about how you feel about them? Like what is your personal journey been like with using them both for yourself and for clients? Yeah, I think for me, I was always hopeful of the next one that would come out or like I just, I had a lot of excitement towards something that could give me more insight, whether it was for myself or my clients. I think over the years, I've found that the most value I've received from them has been from me as a coach interpreting the data and then sort of just incorporating things to steer behavior that way, as opposed to them like getting really involved with the tech themselves. Like that always seemed to peter out or would overcomplicate things for them. Yeah, it's, I look at it like, like personal trainers or coaches, right? There's always those clients and actually it's a lot of people when they first hire a trainer, what do they say? Just tell me what to do. Just tell me what to do and I'll do it, right? And we know that that doesn't work. In the short term, it could work, right? Because the client shows up and just does what you say and you give them a meal plan and they just eat what you tell them. But it never lasts because the person doesn't understand why they're doing what they're doing and they don't develop the relationship themselves. They're just reliant upon someone else telling them what to do. And that's just not a good long-term approach. Well, that's how, that was my opinion of tech. Things that will tell you your macros and your calories and your calorie burn and your steps. If you're not using it to develop kind of this long-term strategy, then it's no different than hiring a trainer and just having the trainer tell you what to do. I used to do that, by the way, as a trainer. I think all of us did, right? Where you just tell the client what to do and you expect them to follow it. I didn't become effective until I could, you know, I guess lead the client and show them how to develop these relationships themselves. That's when I became more successful. So my opinion of tech and fitness, if you go back and listen to the early days of the podcast, we would talk about them, I was always very pessimistic. It's like, it's not going to change anything to have these new tools. Now it's a lot more optimistic because now we have companies like Nutrasense that combines, you know, CGMs, for example, with coaches that will then connect the dots for you and help you identify, oh, when my blood sugar does this or when it goes down this quickly, I feel like this. And this makes me have more cravings or this is when I feel more irritable or this is when my energy levels drop. For you to bed and then it spikes in the middle of the night and with all that means. Yeah, my sleep isn't as good when I do this. And then people start, so they have someone there to help them connect all these dots. But otherwise it's just, you're just following direction and that's not, I mean, you live in the world. I mean, I don't see, I don't see how anybody's going to want to ever just follow direction forever. Plus, here's the problem with that is when you just follow direction, you actually ignore your body's signals. So like, if I gave someone a meal plan back in the day and they're like, I'm just gonna do what you tell me. And something on that meal plan doesn't work with them. People ignore it. I remember, I'll never forget this. I had somebody, and this is when I really started to put this together. This was probably five or six years into my career. Somebody came to me and said, you know, I've been doing keto now for like three months. And you know, when does the keto flue go away and the constipation, like when does that fix? And I'm like, three months? Why haven't you stopped? Look, I know it's supposed to be good for me. And I read all these articles and, you know, trainers are saying it's a good thing. And, you know, this is back when it was like a big deal. I'm like, well, you're ignoring your body's telling you. It's not working for you. You're ignoring it because you're just following directions. And that's not a long-term approach. There's no way that'll last long-term. So I absolutely love tech tools. Most all of them, I should say. Personally, I think that it really does depend on the person and if they have coaching. Like for example, NutriSense is someone that I actually wouldn't have liked that tool if it wasn't paired with coaching. I think the layer, how deep it goes as far as spiking blood sugar levels and like getting the client to understand that level of it and like how that connects to behavior is an even deeper level than just understanding how often you walk and step and how many average calories does your body naturally. Like to me, that's like the first entry level to that is these Fitbit type of tools. NutriSense I would say is an even deeper level. So if it didn't have a coach paired with it, I actually wouldn't be that big of a fan of it. I think most people would interpret the data wrong or wouldn't know how to connect it, what they should connect it to and wouldn't know even what to do with that information. So if it wasn't for that, I wouldn't have even been that big of a fan for the average person. But all in all, I think the tools are incredible. The mistake though is the people that tend to like them send to be the wrong people, right? It seems to be the people that are the most data driven and like geek out. Competitive. Yeah. I literally just had- They wouldn't need the tools. They're gonna be consistent anyway. It's funny you actually, this was your fitness tip today because I obviously don't know until you do it. And I think two days ago, I was in my DMs back and forth. This is one of our long-term listeners and she follows several of our programs and she's got a coach that she's working with right now. She used our macro calculator. She's using the Fitbit and she's like, you know, Adam, I just really need some direction. I feel frustrated. I'm not seeing these results. And my coach is having me put on this, but then when I go to your macro calculator, it says this, my Fitbit says I should be doing them. Like, okay, see, this is where it gets bad is you are comparing all of them and you want one of them to be the right one. So you can say the other one's suck and that's the most accurate thing. And it's just like, well, that's just a roll the dice, which one's gonna be perfect for you as far as lining up. What you really need to do is we just need to figure out what your maintenance caloric level is and whether you use our macro calculator to give you a starting point or you use your Fitbit to be your starting point or you use your coach, which is what I recommended. I said, if you got a good coach and you feel confident about who you hired, they are gonna have better insight with you on this than any of these, even our great macro calculator because if I were to take on a client that had all these tools, I would actually say, I don't want you to use these for now as far as like holding on to what they say. You can wear it and you can pay attention to it, but the advice it's giving you is irrelevant to us right now. What we first need to do is track your calories and figure out maintenance for ourselves, meaning let's start at a calorie intake that you think is your maintenance or maybe close to one of these numbers are giving us. And then the goal is for us just to see your body not fluctuate and wait, we wanna just maintain off of your normal daily habits. And if your normal daily habits are, you don't ever work out, you sit on the couch all day, I actually kind of want you to do that for the first week or two while we're just figuring out your caloric maintenance. And then from there, we adjust. Now, if you're using a Fitbit or a tool like that and we do it together and we find out your caloric maintenance is 2000 calories, but the tool said 2,400 calories. That number doesn't matter to me. What matters is that we know it's 2000. Now, you can use that tool if that tool reads 2,700, 1,800, the up and down of it as long as it's relative to the number that we figured out. That's our home base. And where that tool is incredible is they are really accurate with the variance of it going up and down as far as how many calories are burning, how many steps that you're doing. You look at the trends. Yes, and so we wanna watch the trends of that. And then you wanna compare that to what's happening. How do I feel? Why is it trending in particular? I'll use a very simple example. A step counter. Step counters have been around for a long time. This is like basic fitness tech. This is as basic as it gets. Now, here's where step counters are valuable. You look at your steps, you see how much you move, how much you don't move. Then you connect it to how you feel. What does that look like on a normal day? Not what does it look like when a schedule long walks, but rather, wow. Weekdays versus weekends and the trends there. And oh man, I have way more energy when I'm around here. Oral lab too fatigued when my steps go above this. And then I can move away from the step counter and start to kind of live, because here's the deal, like if fitness is a stress, if eating right is a stress, you're not gonna maintain it long term. If it's how you live, because you enjoy to live that way and you've identified all the benefits that it's made for you, not just the scale weight in the mirror, but all the other things, then it's something that you're gonna wanna do for the rest of your life. So, your step counter can say 10,000 steps. Okay, that's great. And so every day you can look at it. Oh, did I hit 10,000 steps that I not? But what's better is if you say, wow, I noticed that when I park further away from the mall, I noticed that when I use the bathroom that's on the second floor, I noticed that when I stand up to do chores versus sitting down to fold laundry, I tend to hit, and then I feel good and I feel great when I do that. Or, ooh, those steps are too much. Actually, my energy is a little low, maybe connected to my diet. It's a learning process, it's a journey, but if you don't do that and you just look at the tech and you just follow what the tech says, you're gonna fail, 100%. And they have not contributed. This is why all this tech that didn't exist when we were trainers, this is why it still hasn't contributed to a higher success rate. Yeah, because it doesn't necessarily change behaviors. It doesn't change behaviors. Yeah, if it doesn't change behaviors, then you can have all the data. You know, it's funny, I was talking about the steps. The kind of my arc with this whole process of the tech tools, like I totally geeked out on originally, I was definitely somebody who was hung up on all the different data of what my sleep was saying, my scores were saying, how many calories that workout burnt versus this one. At the end, like if you were to see like how I was coaching like my last client that I actually coached like to diet before we did this. And I actually use steps more than anything else. I find that the most, once I manually find their calorie maintenance level, and I know about how many steps they were taking per day, right? Their activity level, I can manage them basically through their steps what I need their body to burn per se. And I use that more than anything else. That to me, like the intensity of a workout more than the other, like there's gonna be this kind of like ebb and flow of that, it's like irrelevant. But the difference between somebody sitting on the couch all day and not moving any steps versus 10,000. Just overall activity. It's a good insight in that direction. And it's easier to coach and manage to you. I found it so much easier to tell a client like, hey, right now you average about 5,500 steps a day. Our goal next week is to make sure you hit 7,000 every day. Like that's simple. And the way to get there is just be mindful of it. Walk more. And that little bit of coaching right there, I know ramps up their total calorie burn for the day and the total for the week. And that would fluctuate the, what I want to do. Well, look, the bottom line is if this is something that you plan on doing for the rest of your life, then it needs to become how you live your life. So in other words, it's not, ooh, I got to schedule time to go to the gym. Ooh, I got to do this thing. I got to restrict my food. It's, this is just how I live. And it's healthy and I feel good. And it's just, it's a non stressful way to live. Otherwise it's gonna be this up and down struggle all the time. And this is why again, the fail rate is the same. We have all this tech. We have all this information. Look, when we were trainers, if I don't want to know how many calories and grams of proteins, fats and carbs were in foods, I had to go get my calorie King book. You guys remember that? I had to go get a big book and scroll and look. We didn't have the internet. We didn't have all this. Now we have all this, this incredible access to information. The fail rate is the same. It is not for lack of information. That's not the reason why we're, where we are. It's the same reason why we were, you know, in the late nineties when I became a trainer versus today, it's the same. It's that people or not were trainers, coaches, the fitness industry and people don't understand that this is a, it's a journey and you have to develop this relationship with these things. Otherwise it'll never work unless you're one of the few people that are fitness fanatics and you love it. But if you're a fitness fanatic, you know, you probably work well in the fitness industry. Yeah. I also look at it from this perspective. It's like, if it's bringing insight into like signals and things that your body's trying to convey to you, but you're not aware, you're not aware of how to, to pick up on that. So for instance, like if it's the step count thing, I'm just kind of oblivious that I'm not really that active on these days or, you know, or if it's like HRV and it's like, well, maybe I probably shouldn't go as intense today. I'm listening to my body and realizing maybe I'm not fully recovered and it's kind of bringing me in some insight there or, you know, or it's the spike blood sugar thing. If I do this in the morning, instead of what I was doing previous, now I have a different operating system to go off of. And so it's like, you got to use that and two of the calorie things, you have to do the work initially to be able to have a basis to kind of go off of. So if you can look at it like that as a tool, it's like, okay, if this is actually like bringing something valuable into the way my process and I can improve my process, but then evolve past and use my own body signals to take over, that's the best case scenario. What you're highlighting was one of the, and this is probably why I like the tools so much because it was one of the most pivotal things that ever happened in my fitness journey. And I've shared it a long time ago in the podcast. We haven't talked about it in a long time, but I remember when I was a trainer and I struggled to get like super shredded lean. I could never break this. I could get pretty good, like 10% or so. Like I think 9% was the leanest I had gotten at that point in my career. And that's me like trying. And like, this doesn't add up to me. Like I am absolutely perfect on the diet during the week. I mean, I'm prepping like crazy. I'm consistent with my training. Back then that's when I'm training like five, six days a week. Saturday and Sunday would be the days that I would say, hey, listen, I'm off. I wouldn't be like off the rails though. I was just off. I wouldn't train that day if I were to have some pizza or an enjoy some junk food or ice cream or candy on the day. I would allow it in there. But I'm like in my head, I'm going, yeah, that's a few hundred calories here. And that's not like, that's not enough to make me fat or that's not enough to keep me from losing a percent when I'm so perfect the rest of the week. It wasn't until the, the body bug came out when I tracked that it blew my mind. It blew my mind that just working all day as a trainer, the total amount of calories my body was burning because I'm rewracking weights. I'm training clients 10 hours a day. And then the difference on Saturday, Saturday, slept in. I would not get up until about 10 o'clock or so, you know, mosey around, do my thing for the day. And then the amount, I mean, we're talking about a 2000 plus calorie burn difference in each day. So fourth, I mean- Plus you're eating more calories. If I was going to make a bad choice, even though, like I said, it wasn't like- So you're at maintenance without realizing it? Yes. And so it was just enough to negate all the deficit and crazy work I was doing during the week. And it just, I couldn't make that connection until I saw the data. And it just shift, which is where the thing came from, which you've heard on this podcast me say a bunch of times, win the weekend. Like if I could just win the weekend, I knew I was good because I moved so much during the week. Completely, that I now then broke through that now I could get down to six percent body fat. So yeah, I remember when my clients first started using that devices like that, it helped me as a trainer because I would look at their, I remember the very, very first- Their grocery shopping was burning more than your workout. It was crazy. That blew my mind too. Yard work. Yes. I remember I had my, the first woman, the first person that I had used one was this woman. And I remember when, cause you were able to, you'd upload it to your computer and then you'd see their activity. And I looked, I'm like, what did you do on Saturday? Oh my God. She was like nothing. I'm like, what do you mean nothing? She's like, well, I did some gardening. Went to the flea market. Yeah, we watched the car. I went grocery, you know, I went to the mall. Like, oh my God, you burned way more calories on Saturday than you did during the week. And then I looked at the days that she worked with me. So she trained me Monday, Wednesdays and Fridays. And I could, and it would show you on the graph. You would see the activity level spike for the workout. And then the rest of the day was nothing. And then I'm like, it's, so I'm piecing. I'm like, oh my God, that's true because she works the desk job. So she comes in, works out me, and then nothing all day long. So it helped me coach her much more effectively. I had the same epiphany too. It blew my mind that, and this was back in the days when we were probably all training our clients similar, right, where it was like crushing them. You were crushing them. They would go limping out of the gym or just drenched in sweat that was considered a successful workout. And I'm looking at the days that I trained her and she was burning like half the calories. She was on a day she would consider, I didn't do anything. I went to the farmer's market. Yeah, but yeah, I didn't do anything. It was grocery shopping, cleaning my house for the weekend or like that. And it was like, oh my God, here we are trying to figure out this like calorie deficit. I'm so fixated on our workout being intense so she burns more calories, so we lose weight. Yet if she just has a Saturday, a couple more times during the week, like we're gonna make a huge deficit with minimal effort without training hard. Like that shifted the way I was in the culture. Isn't that funny? There's so many people still stuck in that mindset of like, I gotta burn this off. And it's like, you're giving yourself an hour of intense where you're not even gonna come close. Well, this is why they actually say today that somebody who considers themselves highly active is actually like somebody who trains five to six days a week. An hour. An hour, intense. But they work a traditional desk job. Are still considered sedentary. Because that one hour ain't shit. I mean, I don't care if you do the hardest crossfit workout you've ever done, you're gonna burn seven to 900 calories at best. No, we're lucky. Even then, like 500. That's like, I'm talking about at best. Like there's a puke workout, 700 to 900 calories and you're a big person. Like it ain't happening. Like just by being, then compare that to someone who has a job where they're just active and they walk around all day. Like you won't even come close. The tools are good for awareness. It's what you do with the awareness though that makes it effective. Awareness by itself is nothing. You gotta do something with it. So I've said this before, but I think it's appropriate now. How we learn goes through four general stages. And the first one is you're just unconsciously incompetent, so you don't know what you don't know. And this is where you start out. You just don't know what you don't know. But then you quickly move into, oh, like now I'm aware of what I don't know. Then the next stage is now I'm aware of what I know. So that means I have to consciously, it's like watching a kid learn how to walk, right? Once they learn how to walk, they have to consciously think about every step. And you could tell when they're walking, they have to pay attention. But that's not where you wanna end up. You wanna end up in this kind of unconscious competence where walking is natural. I don't think about walking. Subconscious kind of takes over. Yeah, when I walk, I don't think about every single step. I just walk. Well, this is where you eventually wanna get to if this is something you wanna maintain for the rest of your life, where this is just like I said earlier, this is just how you live. And these tools can be a piece of that. They can be a part of the puzzle, but they are not the whole puzzle. They are not the solution. They're not the answer and by themselves, without the right person, probably coaching and explaining to you, they could be absolutely worthless. I don't remember who it was. Somebody that was a friend of ours, some online trainer coach buddy of ours that was kind of clowning on glucose monitors. I don't remember. Do you remember who it was? I don't remember who it was. It was a friend of ours, right? I mean, we don't agree with everybody. That's a friend of ours in the fitness space, obviously. And they were basically saying how worthless they are. And so pointless and it's like, unless you're diabetic, this is such a waste of money. And it's like, okay, yeah. At face value, you could be right about that, but not if you learned to attach it to the behaviors. If you think that eating certain foods, that spike or crash blood sugar does not change your behaviors and choices that you make food-wise, you don't know shit as a trainer. It absolutely does. And if you as a client can learn to make those connections, it is a simple like, oh, I shouldn't eat that because I know how I'm going to feel because of how it's gonna make me crash like that. Like that's the value in it. It's not, oh, where are these things? Cravings is gonna produce. Yeah, where are this ugly ass thing on the back of your tricep? And it's guaranteed to make you lose 50 pounds of fat. Like, no, it ain't like that at all, but if you can learn to connect it to behaviors based off of- And that's what the coaching does. And that's where the money is at. And by the way, it's super valuable when you have those occasional, and all of us have them, those foods that spike blood sugar that wouldn't traditionally be labeled as blood sugar spiking foods. How does this happen? Well, you have immune responses to certain foods. This is what food intolerances are. So you could very well eat an avocado, which has zero carbohydrates, zero sugar. It's got fiber and fat. For all intents and purposes, you should get zero spike and crash and blood sugar because there's none in there. But if you have an intolerance to avocados that you're not aware of and you eat it, the way that your body often responds to an intolerance is it mounts a low level immune response. And that typically is a stress on the body. The body releases sugar from your liver. So now an avocado, if this is you, spikes your blood sugar. You would have never known this. It would have been hard for you to connect the dots. You would have eaten the avocado and be like, yeah, and not connected the crappy feeling afterwards because it's an avocado. That's not gonna affect my blood sugar. But if you use the device like a CGM and you worked with a coach, they would tell you at two o'clock, you got this real crazy and you're like, well, that's weird because I'm just eating avocados like, oh really? Let's keep an eye on that because you may have an intolerance and that definitely will cause a spike in blood sugar, even though it has no sugar. Listen, there's a way to do this manually too. I mean, if you really want to put the work in for those people that are like, oh my God. This is how I used to do it. Yeah, you can literally do a food diary if you really have the discipline to do this. And that's why, again, I like these types of tools because like, let's be honest, very few people will do this. But yeah, you could sit down and like log what you eat, log afterwards, how full do you feel? Do you have any bloat from that? How's your stool feel? How's your energy feel? Did you notice any cravings? So if, yeah, put all those things, score it one to five and start logging every single thing you eat and then you could probably figure this out without that tool. I think you can totally do that and do a pretty good job at that. But you gotta be willing to put all that work in and be consistent with that to probably get a really good objective view of what's going on with you. But that's really what you're getting out of a device like that that I think is really valuable. Yeah, and that's hard by the way what you're saying is really hard. I used to do that with clients. I literally had a forum that they would fill out and I'd have them do this whole thing before and after meals type of deal. And it was a long process, man. It was a long process. So I wish I had a CGM back then. That would have made things a lot. Yeah, it would have made things a lot easier. And then the RGB bundle are both 50% off. That's a huge discount. If you're interested, click on the link at the top of the description below. All right, back to the show. Anyway, so I have to move. I have to move out of my house. Yeah. How crazy. From mold. Yeah, dude. So this is a kind of a crazy situation. I want to point out this is when your... What's it called? When your hypochondriac pays off. No. I'm serious. Bloodhound knows. And for sure, I would have been living there, probably breathing that shit in for another five years. It wasn't me actually. So what it was is so my two and a half year old has had these kind of on, off again, kind of like mild autoimmune type issues, like some skin issues, some gut issues. We couldn't really get to the root of it. We were working with Dr. Becky Campbell. She's a functional medicine practitioner. And it was just, we just couldn't really figure it out. We could somewhat manage it with diet, but it didn't make sense as to why his body was being so sensitive. And so Dr. Becky Campbell suggested that we do a urine test, the test for mold, because if certain types of mold, and if you're sensitive to mold, or if you're sensitive to mold, it could definitely cause issues. It can cause issues. It can overwhelm your body's ability to deal with histamine. It can cause stress reactions or immune reactions. So we tested our urine and it came back positive. For mold, now we're like, was it in the previous house, or is it in this house? We didn't know. So I'm like, oh, I don't know if I wanna do this whole, cause mold tests, I don't know if you guys know this, but if you get like a legit company. Quite expensive. Oh, it's thousands of dollars. Did you guys have to pay that out of your own pocket? Well, once we found out that there was mold, and the kind of mold that you don't want, then our landlord compensated us through ranch. Okay, good. Cause I was wondering about that. But if it came back negative, it's on me. Oh, interesting. Yeah, I mean, what are you gonna do to the landlord? I'm gonna pay, I tested for mold. It came back negative. Can you pay for it? They'll be like, no. You know, but so I went and I paid this company and it was very, very thorough, very thorough mold test. They came back and it was through the HVAC unit. So the arteries of the house. I was gonna ask, yeah, if it was there or the walls or something. Well, yeah, so you turn on, well, it blows it everywhere. It just blows it throughout the whole house. And then anywhere there's moisture, the mold will settle and then you got some mold there. But they found. Brutal. Yeah, they found stuff all over the place. So I'm so, I'm so mad. So I'm like, oh, I hate moving. I hate dealing with this, but we got to move. I mean, I'm excited for you because I like the new place. I mean, I know, trust me, nobody knows how much moving stuff is probably more than me because I think since we've been together, I think I definitely have moved the most. Have you moved more than me? Yeah. How many times have you moved now? Since we've been Scarlet, Bernetti, Marina. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow, four. Yeah, that's just since we've all been together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's a lot. I've been moving quite a bit. So those things like the air dock that we have in here, how effective are they? Do you know, Doug? The air purifiers? Yeah, very. Because I think I've read before like 99.9% of all mold or things like that. Those things are supposed to, not that I would suggest you stay there. It helps, but if you don't get rid of the source. Still. You're going to get something to be a cost of battle. Yeah, so I did get a bunch of purifiers. Every room now has one in there because we're still there trying to figure out cause we found a new place and we're going to start the moving process. So I do have purifiers running 24-7 throughout the house, but it's crazy because, and we'll know, like once we move, we'll know if that was the really. Right, if it clears up. If it clears up. And then my oldest son who went off to college, mysteriously all of his gut issues disappeared. So how, you know how annoyed I am that they could have potentially been causing stuff like that for him? For a while. I'm so, I'll be, I'm so mad, but it's a lot dude. The landlord's going to have to like gut the HVAC, they're going to have to go through walls and do all that shit. It's crazy. And when you start looking this up, you'll hear horror stories of people who, so Dr. Becky Campbell herself, she dealt with this herself. She thought this, you want to hear her stories? Crazy. She thought she had, she couldn't figure out what was wrong with her. She kept having all these crazy symptoms. Traditional mold sensitivity symptoms look like upper respiratory type issues that keep reoccurring. But some people get weird stuff, like anxiety, depression, being lethargic, like you think you're dying, like what the hell's wrong with me, right? She was having all these weird symptoms. She thought she had breast implant illness, which if you look that up, now that's not a confirmed thing, but lots of people say that it exists. She got her implants removed, while she was in the hospital, mysteriously started feeling better. So she's like, oh, it was totally the implants. Moves back home, symptoms come back. What the hell did a thorough analysis and sure enough found mold in her house? And that was what the problem was. Oh, wow. It was the mold, I know. That's crazy. I know. And it's weird because there's no standard. There's no real standard for what is considered bad or good or whatever. And again, these tests are, I mean, if you have a decent sized house and you do a full-on test, it's gonna cost you $5,000, $6,000 or more. I'm sure most people live with it and don't really get as bad of symptoms as to trigger a response. Right, like you just have these low-level symptoms and have no idea, it's everywhere. So crazy. So I wanted to call Doug out on this because he was so undercover about this. What did he know? I was talking to Greg, I know, right? He's like, oh, what the fuck is out of me? He's selling me out all right now. He's sweating bullets right now. Oh, good. We'll just drag it out a little bit. We'll just drag it out a little bit, right? Just hang in there, dude. Talk to your daughter. She told me you were doing something. Oh, what are you doing, Doug? I'm doing, Dougie. You take a calligraphy class? Oh, wow. Yeah, so, no, she told me that she already called me out on this. Oh, she gave you the heads up. No, I had the heads up on that. So one of the things I was very interested in doing when I went to Japan was calligraphy. The Japanese calligraphy, I think it's beautiful. It's, you know, black ink on essentially white paper or off white paper. You have some special pens too, right? Yeah, it's a brush. Okay. He's literally taking a class. So I was gonna take a class when I went to Japan, but I didn't have time. So I happened to come back to the U.S. and I thought, well, I'm gonna look for a class. And there was one locally that was being held at a Japanese art store. And it just so happened to be a teacher and he's actually lives in Japan. He comes out every other month or so and he teaches a class. So he's actually, he travels the world, teaches at universities and he's quite a well-known artist. So I had to come all the way back here to actually get one of the top guys to learn from. So I took one class, I think it was in August, then he came back here, no, it was in July and then in September. So it was like a two month. So yeah, I didn't wanna miss the class. So I went and took it. So it's calligraphy, but it's Japanese characters. Japanese characters. So it's a brush, it's not like a quilled pen. No, it's an actual, like a paint brush with it. Like you sharpen the tip and you dip it in black ink. That's cool. But there's such a technique around it. Of course. I mean, the way you hold the brush, the way you sit, all the supplies that go along with it. Wait, what do you mean the way you sit? You have to sit particularly? Well, you sit up straight and then the brush, you hold it vertically. You don't bend the brush, you hold it vertically. That's the exam for it there. Do you remember when that was all the rage for tattoos when people were doing that? They still do it. My buddy beat me to it and he put it on his shoulder before I was supposed to do that. Have you ever seen those horror stories where people are just like, they mean something else? And they're Japanese friends. It's tattoo or something like that. That says tuna roll. I mean, tuna roll. That's not what you think it says. I wonder how many people got fucked with it. A lot, yeah. You think so? I've heard, I've read stories. Oh really? Yeah, and they're friends who read that. Yeah, I was like, oh, you know what? That says on your shoulder, you know? No, what does it say, you know, Suzuki? Honestly, you might be going on this like Steve Jobs sort of, you know how he got into calligraphy and then he had a dysepiphany and that's kind of what led him to iPhone? I thought it was an iPhone. Well, yeah, that too. I mean, he did all that, I think in India. Are you dropping acid to us? Yeah. No, not yet. You're on a journey, Doug. I may try it later, but. No, it's very meditative. For sure. You have to be very focused. You have to be very present. Present, yeah. Do you guys think Doug doesn't tell us stuff because he's secretive? Or do you think it's because we talk so much, that she doesn't have a chance? That. Okay. I think Katrina, the funny that, the reason why I brought it up was Katrina and I had a night to ourselves and we were talking about, we like had a moment of like just being grateful and I was sharing about, you know, my partnership with you guys and how crazy it's been, it's almost nine years that we've been doing this all together and it's so wild, how well we've all stayed connected and just the ability for, you know, four leader personalities to be able to get through something like that. And she was making the comment of like the thing that ties us is that we're all like these dorks. What? Yeah. That's her. Yeah. Her glues. She thinks that scheme is good. What it is that you guys are like super dorks and she's doing it and you like compliment me at the same time. I love that about you though, but that's okay, I like that. She goes, yeah, you each all have like your, your little dorky things that you guys are all into and you just kind of privately do it. Yeah. Throw it in that category of like we have like this little, we all have our little geeky things that we geek out on and then we don't need to share it. It's like, it's not like a bragging thing. It's like, you know, I'm into this. I don't need anybody else to be into it. You know what I'm saying? I do it for me. I don't do it for anybody else. And so I think that we all kind of have a little bit of that. Yeah, but you tend to tell, you tend to share. I do the same thing. I'll come and tell you guys what's going on. Yeah. Yeah, I mean. Unless it's a challenge and nobody knows what the hell's going on. It's good to say. You should explore it. Maybe not. Doug was also, you know, up in the city too, going into like some trade show for the Samurai Swords this weekend too. Wasn't a trade store show, it's a club. Actually a Japanese sword club. Very, very nerdy. Oh wow. Yeah. So did you join the club or are you just checking it out? I'm going to join the club. I don't know how often I'll actually go to it. Do you have to do something to join it? Yeah, is there any sort of like hazing or anything like that? Nah, there's no ritual or anything like that. Should I get a full back tattoo or anything? Yeah. No, but these guys, I had no idea. Yeah. That would be such a cool. I want to make Doug, he's always huge like fucking Tiger on his back. That would be very Doug. He'd go to the Peterhead. I know. What did you just say? He just has a full sleeve. He had no idea. He had no fucking massive. You guys thought he did. The Tiger. He just takes his clothes. Oh my God, I knew it. Now, are they super dorks about it and they show up dressed up like Samurai? They don't. They do not. However, I play tales. Not like Justin Star Wars fans. No. Hey, they're awesome, dude. Don't clown on my Star Wars guys. But I got to say, I was shocked that the level of knowledge these guys have. So I bought two swords when I was in Japan. And honestly, I bought them not knowing a lot about them. So I thought, well, I'm going to take my swords up there and have these guys look at it. And they take it off. So when you take the handle off, there's an engraving on the actual sword of the sword Smith. And I have one sword that was like 16th century, made that's what I was told anyway. And so the guys looked at it and these guys don't actually speak Japanese, but they know the sword makers so well. They go, yeah, we know Taro Yoshi was the name of the sword maker who made mine. And he was in the 16th century. He's made a lot of swords. He's well known, et cetera, et cetera. What was the secret of the Japanese steel and the swords? Because they were doing this backwards. See how they folded it or something like that? It's also the heat and something else because they were making steel that, I mean, back then they were using iron into the parts of the world. Their swords were harder and sharper than anything else. Isn't it the way they fold them or something? Yeah, there's obviously some type of process. I'm not well versed on that. Something I have to learn. What I learned when I went to this club is I don't know anything and there is so much to know. There's a guy there, he's lived 43 years in Japan and he is actually a true expert on Japanese swords. He's an American guy and he's actually written a book on it and just like talking about all the periods and who the makers are and the schools that made the swords and there's such a history to it. So this is the nerdy part that she was referring to about us is that it doesn't matter what it is that if we are one of us is into a thing. We're into it. We're into it. And that's like me, like I've been in this. If I'm once I get into something like that, it's like I obsess over it. I didn't sleep last night. I was up till two in the morning watching video. I'm constantly like doing research and homework. A lot of times too, Katrina will ask me like, what are you, are you gonna go buy this or do that? And I'm like, no, I'm just doing my homework right now. Like I'm not gonna go and make a purchase or something like that until I feel confident. Like I know what it is I want and it's a good deal. And it's like, so yeah, I think we all kind of obsess over something like that. I find that I love the same. I mean, I love Japanese cultural. I'm not as into it as Doug is, but I could totally get into it. But it's fascinating to me because you think about it. If you, you know, 16th century, if your sword broke, you're dead. So the quality of your sword was so important and how you handled it was so important because otherwise that's always your life. Really, really crazy. And the honor and tradition and culture around it, they would do this ceremonial suicide if they dishonored their family. Have you guys know what this is? Were they? That's real? They would actually disembowel themselves because if they dishonored, you know, for whatever reason. Now, what has been the neatest thing that you've learned? Like, so like the cool, like that you go, oh, that's cool. I had no idea. Like, what have you learned that's neat? About swords? Yeah, I'm sure you learned a lot. But I mean, what stands out to you of like, like, oh, I had no idea or I wouldn't have thought that. Yeah, I don't know if I had any epiphanies like that. Well, I just had one right now when you showed up with your swords. I had no idea that you buy a super rare sword like that and you don't even get the blade in it. They ship you, they put a wood blade on it. They ship you the blade in a separate case because you, it's so, they want it so pristine and it could technically, you know, rust, like you said. Like, I mean, that's... Yeah, I mean, I didn't know that either until I actually received them. Yeah. So the blade was actually shipped separately from the handle of the sword. And so yeah, I didn't know that. I guess that would be one thing I would say. Have you seen the demonstrations that they've done, Doug? Where they have, I don't know what they use, but it looks like, I don't know what it is. Like they did on Bodyguard? Like Bamboo or something? It looks like it. Bamboo. They hit it with one slice. Even like piece of paper. They shaved it off. Yeah, I don't know. Remember on Bodyguard? Yeah. When he throws the silk, he opens the samurai sword and he turns upside down and he throws her little sash up in the air and it floats down and she goes, No, I don't mind that. I think that's BS though. You think so? I think that's BS. Really? I don't think they're that sharp. I mean, I don't, cause there's no weight to that sash, right? I don't feel like Kevin Costner would lie. I, well, maybe not. That was a very realistic movie. It seems... Come on, man. Yeah, no. No, don't make any sense, dude. Please don't make him say it. Gosh, man. One of these days. Hey, you know what I was just thinking? You're super red-faced and pure. Yeah. You were like... I kept it. Like it's a little bit of color, which is rare. You got tan. You actually... See, you do tan. It just is your white, red, and then tan. I just, yeah. Well, what normally happens is it gets all crusty and then it ends up flaking off and then it's gone, you know? And so I actually, and we had talked about kind of using caldera before as I was like sunburned. Oh, did you do that? And I did. I did at first and then I kind of was off and then my skin was drying out and then it was starting to peel. And so I had like little bits that were starting to peel and then I started to... I was like, oh, shit. It works. And then I started putting it back on there and it totally prevented it. It was only like two days and then it just never peeled again. Oh, that's awesome. It works, yeah. You know what product of theirs that I've actually been using consistently now so I can talk about it because I wasn't... Let me guess. So I'm looking at your face. The eye cream. Stupid. Did you use the eye cream? Yeah, that's what I did. Your eyes look younger. You don't know that from looking at me like that. I can tell you. You look less tired. No, what I noticed... It's not bad. It's not bad. It's not bad. It's not bad. Because I remember I was asking like, what's the real difference between that and the other cream? They feel similar. I would think that if they're going in the same place, but they have something in them to help with the puffiness to keep down like the inflammation there. And that's what I noticed. So what I noticed is like there's been a... Like last night was a night. I didn't sleep hardly at all. And so I woke up with like super like puffy eyes. I actually can notice a difference and it brings that down. So if you're somebody who gets like really... I do because I have fat face, right? So it's like you get... I get... I get the disorder. I get extra... I get extra puffy eyes. Fat face. Yeah, I do. If I have... If I get like puffiness there, I think mine is like abnormally bigger than the average person that gets like puffy eyes. And so... Do you guys know what models used to use for puffy eyes? Preparation age. Yeah. Hemorrhoid cream. That's funny. I got grounded for using that on my sister's face. That's really... Who's the first to use that? Yeah. And why? It shrinks. I think it's a vasoconstrictor. Isn't that baby rash cream? No, preparation age. The hemorrhoids. Yeah, but like the guy that initially was using it, it was like, oh, I got a little lift over. Yeah. Oh. How does that happen? So what is it? Is because it has an anti... It's a vasoconstrictor. Oh, okay. So the way it works on hemorrhoids, so a hemorrhoid is a swollen, essentially, like you want to say, blood vessels. And it causes them to constrict. And so... So do you think there's something naturally that does that in the caldera cream? Do you know? Yes. There is. Oh, okay. That's why it's doing that. But it makes preparation age, everybody. All right, good. Yeah, that would be... I wouldn't use preparation age on your face. I wouldn't use preparation age on your face. Yeah, no, I actually, I mean, I actually really notice. You know me? I'm always like, Mr. Skepticle, before I say something, I gotta get it tested 5,000 times before I go like, okay, I feel like I've seen the difference. It's where I notice it. I don't notice it on day-to-day stuff. But if I notice I have extra puffy eyes that morning or with that, and I'm making effort to really rub that in, it definitely tamps it down. So it makes a difference. I have some updating news. I've been the only one here, like on watch for Antarctica news. Oh. Just so you guys know. Yeah, I'm always see my eyes out there for, yeah, so you see this? There's a report that actually they found an underground lake. Yeah. An Antarctic lake? Like... So like... So you know what that means? Like it's been frozen over for thousands of years, whatever, but they're anticipating that the sediment at the bottom of the lake is probably millions of years old. Which it's untested. It also means there's aliens. Well, that's quite a leap from the findings. Well, isn't that where Alien and Predator, the cave and the Alien versus Predators movie? Isn't that where Antarctica, where they dig in the hole in the cave? They go really deep? Yeah, yeah, they found some old ruins or something. Yeah. That was, yeah. Explain what an underground lake is. That means basically it's a lake in a cave? It's a big cave. Well, they were flying over, I guess. It was like a Chinese plane and then they found through looking, they could see like a visible lake underneath the sheets of ice. These ice penetrating radar. Yeah, and so they used radar to detect it, but... So it shows that, I mean, obviously it's a land mass. It's not just one huge thing of ice. Like there's a land mass there. So who knows, like if there's life in that lake underneath all that ice. I told you guys about that experiment. Do we go in and do something? I mean, do they... I think they're going and drilling. Oh, they will. Yeah, they're doing an expedition. Well, because you can look back in time. That's interesting. You can literally look back in time by... With that angry carbon dating that we have? That was stupid. We can get within a million years or so. We're gonna find dinosaurs and prove you wrong, dude. Super accurate. You guys remember that? I told you guys about that Soviet experiment, right? Where they were digging the deepest hole ever. And I think it was in Antarctica. And the story goes that they encountered some creature that maybe you can look it up, Doug. It was like the... Yeah, I'm hearing all these stories and it's like creatures. That it was controlling the minds of some of the researchers. What's the update on the Mexican aliens? They had to fill the hole in. Where was this? I believe in Antarctica. Look up the deepest hole ever dug by the Soviets and then put monster. And it's just like this whole thing about this creature. There was a movie that was based off of it. What was that movie? It was in the snow. It's in the 80s or 90s. And there's like a creature that... Nobody? Okay. Yeah. I don't know. Justin, it's the only hope for you all. I know. I got any more content. I'm looking right at it. We were not watching that. Yeah. Was that? It's called the Cola Superdeep Borehole. It went down, I think. Boy, 12,000 meters. I did put monster in there. Yeah. Yeah. No, there was a monster. Yeah. Oh, let's see here. Monster. Yeah. The deepest hole ever dug. Oh yeah. The temperature got up to 356 degrees Fahrenheit. Whoa. Yeah. Yeah. No, there was a whole story about it that there was a monster in there. I mean, there's a lot of weird undiscovered stuff there. I mean, I think that's why I'm so interested in it. It's like, we shackled him way back in the day. Did some, you know. No, I'm interested in that. So I'm curious to see what happens. What does that say? Well, the deepest hole, this is 40,230 feet. By the way, that doesn't even go through the crust of the earth, you know, right? It says, construction is so deep that locals swear you can hear the screams of souls tortured in hell. Wow. That's creepy. The crust is deeper than that even, huh? We've never, I don't think we've ever gotten through the crust of the earth. Wow. I know, you think they would be able to go down? Yeah. Now, here's what's weird about this. So let's speculate, because during the Cold War we did a lot of weird stuff that was funded by the government. The US and the Soviets were trying to dig the deepest hole. Why? Yeah, why? Why were we doing that? I don't know. Explain operation high jumps. I mean, there's still a very high probability it's there. Yeah, we haven't even broke through the crust. Dude, we're not even close to getting where hell could be. No, I'm wondering why they were trying to do that and what would it be the point? So it took, just so you know, Same point to get into the moon. It took 20 years to go 40,000 feet deep and it's only about one third of the way through the crust. See? Wow. Wow. Yeah. Dude. Yeah, we knew better drills. Yeah. I guess. Well, I mean, if you think about the, You're getting very close. How many drill bits they probably broke, the torque that was put on such a long device and then getting rid of the sediment. I mean, that's why it would take so long to drill. So I'm sure, yes, some of the layers there was almost how that diamond hard rocks possible. Yeah, but there's got to be, you're right though, there has to be a, there had to be a war reason why we would have funded that. Like why are we all digging holes as deep as we can unless we're just trying to like, I guess maybe because we're guys. I got the biggest hole. You know, like you're over there, I'm over here, like, oh, how deep is that? I mean, is it that much different than the moon race? No, the moon race was literally to show them that if we could launch a rocket to the moon, then we could put a rocket in your backyard. Imagine if we could, imagine if we could launch a rocket up your ass. The same, maybe that's the same concept. Is that the motivation? Just shove that in the deepest hole possible. Well, if you theoretically, it wouldn't do anything, right? Theoretically, if you did that, then in you threw something down it, it would just stay in the middle, right? Cause that's where all the, all the gravity is. Well, I mean, is this related at all to earthquakes? Cause I know like they drill holes a lot of times to see kind of like how it affects the plates and they've found ways of like manipulating seismic activity. Well, fracking causes has caused some, some earthquakes in certain places. Yeah. So, I don't know. So weaponizing, you know. I wanted to tell you guys, I don't know what you call this as a dad if you guys experienced this before or not, but I'm at, so we're in Redwood City. We go out to eat a Palo Alto this weekend. It's just Katrina and I. And next to us is a couple with a son who looks like he's a young teen, kids, real sharp, clean cut kid. And his dad is like, like drilling him like questions, like all related to the real estate market. And this kid is like spouting out all kinds of the, like detail on like data that's going on right now. And then his dad's making him make an argument. Okay, then why would this not be a good time to invest? Or why would this, like what, why these markets? Oh, that's cool. Oh my God. It was like, so, so funny. Cause I mean, one of our favorite things to do when we go out to places like that is I love, I love. Ease drop. Yeah. Ease drop. People watch like we're always doing that. And Katrina and I are like sitting there eating, they're right here, like right to the right of me. And you can tell that she totally caught that I picked up on it. Cause I'm like no longer listening to her talking to me. You're just eating silently. And she stops too. So there's like this moment of like silence and we're just listening for a while. I love her cause she just, she like actually introduced herself right away. And she says, Hi, she goes, what's, how old's your son? And then they look at her kind of like sideways. They're like, we're totally listening to your conversation. My husband, I know right now is geeking out on the fact that your son is spouting off all this information. And then we got into this great conversation. It was like his, so he goes to high school at Palo Alto and he has a class that like, he had this whole dissertation that he had put out for that. And I forgot the name of the class. Wow, in high school? Yes. It was, but I mean, I really did have this, like I was totally admiring the whole thing. Like to see the dad, like having this really intelligent, like investor type of conversation with this young, you know, teenage boy like that, his son to be able to battle back at Palo Alto. Speaking of these dropping, did you guys ever do that when you were kids where you're with your buddies and you know there's girls next to you? So you make up conversations, hopefully they'll, did you guys ever do that? You never did that? Yeah, like you do. You know? Cause you know, they're like, oh man, med school is kicking my ass. Yeah. Oh man, I injured myself lifting all the weights. You know, the gym again. Yeah. I probably did. I'm sure we did. I'm sure we did. I mean, I gave her 15 orgasms last time. But we had to break up because, you know. She's good to handle it. Yeah, she's good to take it. It was too much. All this money was falling on my pockets when I was walking home. I knew a guy that used to, he had fake ATM receipts. This is true. Brilliant. He had fake ATM receipts. He essentially like leave them or drop them. No, this is where he would write his phone number. When he would write a grab number. He'd be like, let me get a piece of paper. Bro, did that work for him? Yeah. Of course it did. Yeah, it did. And he'd write on the back of it. And then he'd get a phone call right away. Oh my God. I've actually never heard of that. What a scumbag if you think about that, man. Well, especially if it's nowhere, if you have nowhere near that. That's so skeer-wise. Nowhere near. This guy had like 25 bucks in his account. How mad is she? You know what I'm saying? She's been dating him for like months, putting all this time. I'm gonna call John back. That's like the guy with the Ferrari key chain. Or the shoes. Or the shoes of the bar. Yeah, the shoes of the hat. It was driving a Mazda or something else, you know. That used to be a common thing we used to see. I feel like I used to see guys that would be rocking like a Ferrari hat or they make Ferrari shoes and all that. I'd be like, cause we were in the gym, right? So we'd see these people. So I like follow him out in the parking lot to go see what they drove. Oh, I'm gonna see this Ferrari, right? This guy gets in some Mazda. Oh, I knew a guy like that, but he had a Lotus. So it was like, it's a nice car. It's not a Ferrari, dude. Get the fuck out of here. Come on, bro. Yeah, I think that's funny. To wear the apparel like that. The only way, it'd be okay, I guess. I mean, it's okay, you can do whatever the fuck you want. But I think where I would justify it, it's like maybe like my uncle worked for the company or like they, like I had a family member that was like tied. Do actual Ferrari owners, though, do that? You know what I mean? Oh, for sure. I mean, there's a tie, dude. Let's be honest. In order to be able to afford that, you're probably a nerdy successful guy. Yeah, but do you think they walk around and advertise it like that? Some, absolutely. I mean, you have some gear up, dude. They want people to know. You have a half and a half divide, right? You have like the ultra wealthy that can afford stuff like that. You have the like... Well, let me ask you guys this. Who wears like gold gym shirts? Is it the Jack guy or is the guy that just started working out? It's usually not the super Jack guy. Right, it's probably, yeah. It's probably the guy that just got one or... Better analogy was like affliction and tap out. Yes, dude. When I started jujitsu, all the new guys were wearing the like, I did Brazilian jujitsu, I'm an MMA. Once you get into it, you don't like it. I mean, I think it's just a type of person that would do that, right? There's definitely the nerdy guy who probably is afraid to approach corolls with that. And he wants to signal that I've got a Ferrari and he's probably geared all up in it and like announcing it. And then there's the other, you know, the other half that are like, I don't want anyone to know. I have this shit. It's just interesting. Dude, you're right with the fight guy's shirts. Yes. Like especially the ones that like just signed up on the weekend. That was the tone of the bar. Tap out. Yeah, for that. Notorious for that, for sure. Did you know that, what's his name? Sean Whalen. He hired the old tap out guy. Did you know that? Yeah, did you know that? Dan, whatever his name is. Yeah, I can't even remember his name. That's so good. Yeah, one of the, one of the main dues. What was there? He worked for that. Three or four of them. There was three or four of them. One of them died. Yeah. The one that my ass was dating. Yeah, he painted his face. The same time he was dating someone else. So it's not that big of a deal. I don't think, yeah, yeah. I thought that was really, she showed up to a funeral like there was more than one girl that was there and stuff. Oh my God. Yeah, I thought that was kind of awkward. It would be a weird time to have that come. Did you go to the funeral? No, I didn't go. You heard about it. Yeah, we were talking at that same time. That's crazy. You had something to shout out, right? Oh, yeah, I wanted to talk about the, okay, so obviously, well, you probably don't care, Sal. But most people are paying. Most people are paying attention to the Colorado Buffaloes right now because of Deion Sanders. I mean, it's one of the coolest things to watch right now. Colorado Buffaloes? Yeah. Is that a NFL team? No, it's not. I was going to say, I never heard that. It's a college football team. He is the new head coach. His son, his son is the quarterback. And there was obviously a lot of hype with him just coming there. Colorado, by the way, last year, I think they were like one in 11. They had a terrible record. So, and then the opening game, they played like last year's bowl, one of the team, TCU that was in the bowl last year, and they beat them. And so got all this attention. Beat Nebraska, just beat Colorado State. And so anyways, if you are aware of that and that's already caught your attention or your spouse's attention and you're curious of like some of the backstory is, there is a documentary on, it's called Coach Prime on Amazon Prime, which is Dion Sanders thing. And it talks about his journey with Jackson State, which is where he coached before this. The program that he was trying to build, the vision that he had, some of the kids that he had there that have followed him over to Colorado. And so it kind of gives you an idea of his whole story. But I mean, I love Dion Sanders. I'm for sure going to watch it. He has two sons on the team. He has two boys, right? A boy who's a corner or a safety? One's a corner. The junior is the corner. Yeah. And the quarterback is the other. Isn't that cool? He's got two boys that are bad. He was a great running back. Oh, shit. Did he know something? Do you know? Do you know? Do you know that? I even looked that up. Do you know he's the only person, Sal? Do you know he's the only person in history ever? Didn't he play baseball on football? On the same day. I know. The only person that's ever done that before. Listen, what saves me is I remember random shit that when I'm hanging out with guys, because guys like to talk about this kind of stuff. And they start talking about things and I don't know what the fuck's going on. I'll throw in the occasional. One thing. Oh, Dion, remember when he played baseball and football on the same day? And everyone's like, he knows what he's talking about. Our version is like triangle choke. Yeah. We know that. And then I'll walk away. They just drop. Tell their wives. That's your mic drop right there. Sal knows a lot about everything. He knows everything about. I knew one thing. I know so much about everything right there. I knew one thing. That was it. Sometimes I'm convinced he knew that a lot of stuff. That's all you need. It's for podcasting. Yeah, it is a podcasting skill. Organifi makes organic supplements to help you with your health, athletic performance, fat loss and muscle building. They have superfood blends that can help you with recovery and relaxation, like their gold juice or their green juice, which is phenomenal for inflammation and overall health, or for energy, like the red juice. It's a non-stimulant superfood blend that improves energy and athletic performance, but they have much more. Go check them out and get yourself a discount. Go to organifi.com. That's O-R-G-A-N-I-F-I.com forward slash mind pump, and then use the code mind pump to get 20% off. All right, back to the show. Our first caller is Kelly from Virginia. Hi, Kelly. How can we help you? Hello. Thank you for having me. How are you guys? Very good. We're doing amazing. So cool to see you guys. Well, just thank you guys so much for having me on. You had answered a previous questions about mass performance and me being gassed. The question's a little similar, but I don't know. I think it's a little more detailed in terms of some of the struggles I've been having over the past few years. So just thank you for everything that you guys do for me and for everyone else. Yeah, you're welcome. So thank you. So I'll just read from my question. Over the past three years, I've had a goal of decreasing my body fat percentage to below 30%, but for some reason can't seem to break it. I've been lifting consistently since 2020 with, I guess I've been working out previous to that, but like really lifting with your programs since around 2020, and had been pretty dialed in with nutrition and activity levels. And per some of the guidance from your previous episodes, I started going into a bulk for the better half of last year. So yeah, most of 2022, but sprinkled in many cuts and like kind of maintenance phases throughout. The scale had been pretty stagnant, but I was really happy because I was like slowly increasing on all my core lifts, which I know is a big cue for you guys. But I was feeling pretty good. I wanted to get kind of a base level of where I was. And I went to get a DEXA scan back in May, May or June. And it still said that I was around 30% body fat. I have been kind of at a maintenance at that point. And I walk eight to 10,000 steps generally per day. I try to think, I tend to think that I'm pretty healthy, like lifestyle wise, don't really drink too much anymore. And so the guy who did my scan, I had a nutritionist call. They encouraged me to look at my hormone levels. And after going through Stephen Cabral and his team found that my cortisol levels were really high. My progesterone was also really low and that there's some correlation between or potentially correlation between. So I guess I'm just confused about how to break through on my body fat goals. Is it related to my cortisol? Do I just need to move more? Am I making excuses for myself? So just trying to tease out exactly where I'm at and how I can break through it. Cause I don't know. I feel like I shouldn't be super neurotic about my health and nutrition. I don't think it's like super helpful, but 30% body fat. I don't know. I just feel like getting it under 30 as a female is important. So yeah, just love to get your take. There's nothing inherently wrong with being 30%. Is it, are you just afraid? Is it the number that you saw the number and you're like, I want to get that down? Or is it that you feel like you want to be leaner as well? Yeah. I think it's kind of two things. Like selfishly and honestly, of course just want to look like I work out. I think I kind of do sometimes, but I think I'm really strong in the gym and I feel really good. I'm in power lift right now and I've loved it. I did strong before this. So, but from anabolic to strong to power lift and I've been loving it. And I don't know. I just feel like I don't look the way I lift. And maybe that's just subjective, but well, yeah, it is subjective, but there's that. But then also, my husband and I are starting to try again and I've just been encouraged, maybe just to have a healthier pregnancy, just to work on my body fat. So it's a little bit just more like health and longevity wise and goal wise, but then also, yeah, like selfishly just a number I really want to reach. Would this be your first kid? This would be my second. Okay. How did you feel when you were pregnant with your first? Did you feel really good during pregnancy? No, it was kind of a complicated pregnancy. My son was born at 28 weeks. So, they didn't have any real rhyme or reason. There was no diagnosis as to why it was born preterm. But yeah, I didn't have like the best lifestyle at the time too. I was young and you know. Your body fat percentage is fine for pregnancy. 25 to 30% would be fine for most women. Let's talk a little bit about the hormones. High cortisol, low progesterone. Are you familiar with the signs and symptoms of estrogen dominance? Have you looked that up? Yeah, yeah, and it resonates very much. And I've been working on taking magnesium. I've been working on sleeping and stress and I will say I haven't rechecked my hormones over the past two, three months, but I do like physically feel better. Like I can bounce back from, you know, and not feel so bloated after a, you know, weekend away, that sort of thing. There are just like certain symptoms. I feel like are getting better, but yeah, estrogen dominance is definitely, yeah, I think I probably feel through that. That can often come from gut issues, right? So your body's ability to clear estrogen might be a little compromised. So typically this looks like digestive issues, constipation would be a common one. And can that affect your body fat percentage? I mean, it can, it can through behaviors. Cortisol definitely is a reflection of your body, your ability to manage and handle the stress that you currently have. So either that would be a lifestyle thing or a relationship with a lifestyle thing. It could be one of, one of each or both in that particular sense. As far as getting leaner is concerned, it's a very basic approach, right? Take your maintenance calories, cut them, eat a high protein diet, and then you should get leaner. But if there's an underlying gut issue that is the root cause of the low progesterone high cortisol, you're gonna wanna address that first before you start to really try to tackle getting leaner with diet, otherwise it's gonna be an uphill battle. So I don't know exactly what route you're on with the practitioners with Dr. Cabral's team. I'm assuming though, they're looking at gut health and they're moving you in that direction and that might be why you feel better. Am I hitting the nail on the head or are you guys doing other stuff? Well, I mean, it was just, it was a consultation. It was like a 30 minute or maybe an hour long consultation and they pointed me in the direction of different supplements and like what tests I could take. I hadn't, I was like, let me try to figure out some of the actionable things first, like sleeping better and reducing my stress and stuff before I get into that. But they did mention gut issue stuff potentially. How's your digestion? I think it's actually okay. Yeah, I think it's okay. There was a month span where it was totally off, but I think I just was drinking too much tea or something and I figured it out. But on a day-to-day, I think it's actually okay. I had a question about, you made a comment about being neurotic about calories and tracking is, you don't think it's very healthy, but and then in your notes you have that you were eating between 1900 to 1200, which leads me to believe that, is that a guesstimation or are you actually weighing and tracking food? I was, I was. I was really focused in 22 when the early part of this year on my calories. But I think, like I'm just the type of person when I like, when they told me that my cortisol levels were high, I was stressing out about how to get my cortisol levels down. So I was like, I don't, you know, I wanna be, I'm gonna approach this in a more, I guess, yeah, healthy way. But it was, that was accurate. I had bulked up to 2,600, 2,700 and I was doing okay. And then, but then I went down to about 2,100 and then like the mini cuts I did 1,900 too. So, yeah, but I haven't. If you were my client, I would have you, I would definitely have you work with the functional medicine practitioner, just gonna get the root issue of the low progesterone. My guess is it has to do with your digestion and you're not clearing estrogen out of your body properly. So you get a little bit estrogen dominance going on there. That's not my field. So I'm using an educated guess, I would say, but I would work with them. And then the cut, I would do five days a week of 1,500 calories and then I would do two days a week of 2,000 calories. It'll be a slow cut. You're not gonna see like rapid fat loss doing it that way, but that's okay. I don't want you to go too quickly considering everything you've told me. So it's like a five day cut, two day maintenance. I think that would be a perfectly fine approach so long as you also address what's happening with your hormones and get to the root cause. Cause if there is a gut issue that's going on, this is gonna be a constant struggle and what'll happen with the cut is you'll find cravings are gonna kick in or hormones will work against you and you may find your body trying to lose muscle rather than body fat as a result. Yeah, earlier in 22, I had done a cut like prior to the bulk. I had done a, I mean, not a drastic cut. I think probably 1,700 or something. And I went to get a dexa scan and I had increased body fat, lost muscle and I was like, what is going on? And right now, like I feel great, like I feel like I'm doing great and I'm like progressing on the list. I think it's also just by virtue of doing power lift. It's just new to me and like, I don't know, you have like measurable weights and that you increase every few weeks or whatever. And so that's been really good. But yeah, I think that's totally the addressing the underlying issues. Yeah, I don't think it's a big deal, but I do think that, so it's a very straightforward approach. I'm very confident that if you kind of do what I said, you're going to get there. It'll be a slow process, but you'll see your body transform in the direction you want. So it's literally a five day cut, two day maintenance, but be very consistent. I would work with the function, I would do the tests that they recommended that you take. I'm assuming they did some, they wanted to do some gut health testing, probably food sensitivity and a stool test to see if you have any bacterial overgrowth. And then I would take it from there. I would also make sure you drink a good amount of water on a regular basis. So close to a gallon of water a day, half a gallon to a gallon of water a day. And I would just start there and take it from there. And it's pretty straightforward. I think it'll be very straightforward if you do it that way. I think you should see a nice, probably 2% loss of body fat every month. So that's what I would expect about 2% down every 30 days or so, which is a nice, consistent cut. And I don't think it's so much, I don't think it will compromise your fertility either if you're trying to have a baby. Now I will say this, if you get pregnant, I would stop trying to go into deficit. So if you do get pregnant, then I would forget about tracking, I would just eat when I was hungry, stick to healthy food and continue lifting. It's not smart to try to go in a cut when you're pregnant. That's a terrible idea. Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. No, that's super helpful. It's funny because I'm 30 years old and I'm kind of in this, in between where a lot of my friends either are in the same life stages, me where they're having kids and married and but some of them are still single and partying and whatever. And so you see all these people, all these like a lot of my single friends that are eating like crap and drinking every weekend. I'm like, how do you look like that? And so I think, yeah, it is something of a mix of just addressing the underlying issue. Yeah, because I'm like, I'm so consistent. Like I walk every day, I work out every day. I'm so good about this stuff. How is this, how is this fun? You're fit and healthy. You're fit and healthy. You're doing okay. Yeah, I think you're being a little harsh on yourself. But there's probably something underlying that might is making it a little bit more challenging. So I think you have a valid question. By the way, in regards to the friends that you see that are doing that, would you trade places with them? Do you wanna be the single girl of 30 going out, trying to meet people? When you got a nice husband and kid at home, I think you're okay. Oh, yeah, I know. With the dating apps and stuff, I can't imagine. I'm good. And you're on the right track with your mindset and the program you're following too. So I think that's great what you're doing. After power left, I would go maps on a ball like, I wouldn't do anything with super high volume though, until you really figure out what's going on with the hormone situation. But estrogen dominance, I would look it up, read about it. It typically has to do with the digestive system and your ability to clear out estrogen out of your body. And usually you'll see issues with fully clearing. So like digestive issues that look more like constipation and bloating, typically. Okay, okay, we'll do, thank you. All right, Kelly, by the way, do you have maps on a ball? Cause if you don't, I'll send it to you. Oh yeah, I have like everything. You guys have one, yeah, major consumer of the mind pump. Are you in a forum, Kelly? And I got my husband on you guys too, it's, we always say, mum, mum, mind pump. If you're not in our forum, I'll let you in our forum too, Kelly, so we can follow up with you. That'd be great. Yeah, thank you so much. We'll put you in there. Thanks Kelly. All right, take care, thank you. You got it, you got it. Very pretty straightforward. I think that's gonna, I mean, like I said, if she was my client, it would be very straightforward the direction we would go unless something really weird popped up. You definitely got health direction with the functional medicine. That's where, I mean, that's where I would look. There could be something else, but that's exactly right. Yeah, I wanted to navigate. I wanted to address what she said about pregnancy and healthy. There is a little bit of a misconception on body fat percentage and what's healthy for a woman to get pregnant. I think you assume, in fact, one of the things that when Katrina and I were first trying to get pregnant, we struggled with was that her body fat percentage was high enough. Oh yeah. And that's, she's not even, she wasn't even dieting. She was just what you, we would consider healthy, athletic, making good food choices. They'd probably told her to gain body fat. That's right. And we were having a hard time getting pregnant and the doctor said, you know, honestly, maybe try to put on a little bit of body fat. And she was like, what? Yeah. Because in her head, she's like, I don't feel lean and ripped or anywhere near that right now. I'd like to be leaner. And he's like, yeah, but not ideal for getting pregnant. So honestly, between that 20 to 25 minimum on the low end and then 30 is not bad at all. It's not, it doesn't have like adverse effects until you start getting really high. And it really depends on the person. Generally, once you start to get above 30, you might notice some stuff, but I mean, between, like you said, between 25 to 30, I mean, you're fine. Especially if you're fit and everything else. Yeah, you're strength training, you're active. Our next caller is Carol from Indiana. Hi, Carol. How can we help you? Hi, I'm actually from California. I'm not sure how we got that, but it's all good. Hi guys. First of all, really appreciate all the work you do. As everybody says, you know, the information's great. I've let so many friends know, you know, to listen in if they have any questions about things, fitness related and life related. So I just, I appreciate it. And, you know, I've been listening for a few years now. So great stuff. Thank you. How can we help you? So basically, it's not a super complicated question, but I'll just go ahead and get into it with my background. And then if you need to know anything else, go ahead and ask. I'm 23 years old, 5'3", 125 pounds. I dance ballet my whole life up until graduating high school. Since then I've been weight training for around five years. I also work at Disneyland as a parade performer. I've been in a cut for a few months and I got to my lowest weight at 120 pounds. I'm now heading into a bulk. Now I weigh around 125 pounds and my goal's 135 and to hopefully make the most gains on my shoulders and my legs. I started MAPS aesthetic last week. So now I'm on week two and I really like the full body days. I love switching up the frequency, but I'm not really interested in growing my biceps, triceps or my traps anymore. So I was wondering, is it okay to just kind of take the exercises out on some of the foundational days so that I'm just kind of maintaining the muscle mass or would you recommend removing them or replacing them with exercises from other muscle groups? Just remove them. Just remove them. Well, it depends. Hold on a second. What character do you do in the parade? It's stupid. Stupid. That's not bad. Hold on a second. I'm a dancer. I'm just a dancer for like a... Hold on, that has nothing to do with that. Hold on. Show us your biceps and we'll give you a real answer. Let's see. Yeah. Oh, look at that. You can skip. Yeah, no, those are bigger in cells. You can skip biceps. No, I didn't. You're fine. Yeah, you're fine. You can skip them completely. And I wouldn't because you're following MAPS aesthetic and that's already a high volume program, you don't necessarily... And those are small muscle groups. It's not going to be a big deal. And you're still getting that work when you're doing chest and back. Like those muscles are getting engaged. They're not being neglected. Yeah, so it's not like you're completely neglecting them. So I think that's totally fine. The mistake I do think that a lot of people make though is they go, okay, I'll just do more of the thing that I really want to work thinking that even more of that volume is going to be better for you. Not necessarily. And I would just probably drop that off. Yeah, or beginners, right? Let me skip this muscle group. It's like, no, no, no. You just got started. I think you need to train everything. You're totally fine avoiding those things in your training and really... Because you're fit. You've been doing this for a while. You're obviously fit. You work out. You're pretty strong. You could cut those out and it wouldn't be an issue whatsoever. And you wouldn't notice any negative effects. You just don't want them to get more developed is what you're saying. Yeah, you're totally fine. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. Have you done any of our other programs or is MAPS aesthetic the first one that you jumped into? That's just the one I bought a few years ago. So then I've just run it a few times. Otherwise, I kind of try and program myself and I'll build it out according to how many sets and I'll split it up throughout the week. So I've done different types of splits and everything but yeah, pretty much just aesthetic. And that's really different than what I've programmed myself. What's your goal with the bulk? Where do you want to see most of that muscle go? She said shoulders and her legs. Shoulders and legs, yeah. Okay, I mean, I like MAPS Power Lift. I like symmetry. Or symmetry is the other program. Mainly too because I've trained a lot of dancers and there's always a lot of imbalances to kind of work through and that's usually not highlighted enough and it gets highlighted a lot with unilateral training. So it could also help to any lagging body part, anything else specifically too that stands out it will kind of reveal itself. But have you ever done like a powerlifting style? Like get really good at the deadlift and the squat. No, I mean, like I've worked on getting my deadlifts and squat heavy but like amongst bodybuilding style training, so never like really focused that way. I like powerlifting for you. I think that would be a great shift. I think that would be a great next program for you. And in a bulk would be phenomenal. I think you would reap a lot of benefit. So you've never done like pure strength training? Yeah. I guess not. Oh yeah. So I like the idea of running powerlift in your bulk and then your maintenance are cut in aesthetic just personally. So you're gonna pack on the, as much muscle as you can in your bulk through powerlift which is gonna be one of the better programs to do that. And then when you get into like really sculpting I would run like a maintenance to a slight cut in aesthetic where maybe I'd undulate that one week and I would be running like a maintenance calories then the next week I'd run like a cut or do that every two weeks flip flop through aesthetic. I think you get some great benefit. Totally. Okay. Yeah, I got it. I think I've run aesthetic through a cut before and you know, it worked out really well because of the high volume. I really liked it. I think I was just trying to like switch it up a little bit this time but for sure powerlift sounds like it would be a good. We'll send that to you. Yeah, we'll send that over to you. We'll send that over to you. You can change your pace. What does your deadlifting squat look like now? Like weight wise or one rep max? Haven't done like one in a while but for one rep I've done a squat at 245 and deadlift. I've never done like my true one rep but I can do 245 for like reps. Holy shit. Yeah, you're strong. You're strong as hell. Yeah, a mass powerlift in a bulk. I think you're gonna trip out over the results with that. Yeah, thank you. You got it. Keep us put. Go ahead. Wait, what were you saying? I was gonna say, I can't wait to hear actually what those numbers, because you're already really strong. It'd be interesting to see what kind of gains you see that circle back afterwards. Yeah, no, absolutely. My other question was just like, do you have any tips or advice for the bulk? Just because I've done a couple before, felt really strong, felt really good but just like, how can I optimize this bulk? Do you have any, when you've done them in the past, do you find there's any challenges? So, has it been super successful for you or do you find like, oh, I have a hard time with this or sometimes I make- Do you track in the bulk or do you just try and eat more? I usually track, I am pretty like, like precise, making sure I hit my protein and my calories. Like I kind of let the fat and carbs fluctuate because I feel good usually regardless because I'm eating more but- Here's a tip, here's a tip for you. Since shoulders and legs are a priority, start some of your workouts with the shoulder exercise first. You probably don't really, or I don't know if you do that already or not but there's some value to you being in a bulk because you want to develop shoulders, lead the workout sometimes with shoulders. I would basically toggle back and forth or those for sure my one and two is legs and shoulders to start my workout. If you're tracking, you're eating high protein, the main thing I would focus on with the bulk are easily digestible foods. So if, whenever you're picking your starches and your fats, pick foods that just feel super easy to digest because that becomes the challenge is how well you can assimilate the food that you ate. Some people run into like things like bloat and digestive issues when they get into a bulk and that can really cause things to plateau. What about creatine? You run creatine? Yeah, I'm taking creatine. Oh yeah, you're on point. Yeah, you're on point. You're on point. So now that Sal said that about the making sure you easily digestible foods it does remind me of like when I get really to like towards the end, like towards the goal weight it's harder to like really want to like eat those cleaner foods even though like they're more easily digestible. So like sometimes I'll just have like like some cheat meals and then I, you know, won't hit my goal for that reason. But yeah, I'm going to try and be cleaner about it like this time towards the end. When it gets to the point where you feel like you're force feeding yourself and you're like this sucks then you need to reverse out. Yeah. That's just a sign. And sometimes you need to reverse out for a week and then go back and you'll feel okay. I also think too, as young and as fit as you are too it's okay to do that. I want to also have balance in your life. Totally. So like you also know, yeah you also don't want to be so neurotic that you're like, oh I can't have that. Yeah, what's your cheat meal? Just like I'll let myself go out like to, you know, get food like whether it's like canes, chicken or like just whatever sounds good to me. I'm like, okay, I'm going to have that. Yeah, burger and fries every once in a while, a pizza every once in a while. Like you should do that. I mean, you're at a point in your life like you don't want to be the girl who's carrying her Tupperware around all the time when you're as good of shape as you are. So I would allow yourself to do that once in a while. Well, thank you guys, that's all I really had but I'm like, you know, I'm super grateful to be here and I'm super grateful for all that information and yeah, I'll be running Power Lift next for sure. If you have any connections with Disneyland, just email us. We all have kids. We got kids, you know. Yeah, you know, secret places and discounted tickets, you know stuff like that. Do you get to take like, I've been there before with a, I forget what you guys call them like a VIP person who has like paid annual membership where they like take us around the park and like we got to go to like the front of the line. Like, can you do that to your family? Do you have access? No. That's like the only special people get that done. I've never heard of that until we got to experience. Adam wants to do the princess dinner in the castle. He does. He really wants to. I've been ruined after experiencing Disneyland that way. Now I'm like, man, I gotta find somebody else who can do that. That was amazing. Yeah. Have you gone to all the secret rooms? Cause I even hear some of the employees haven't even been to all the secret rooms. No, no, like. That's wild. I think just, you know, depending on where you work, you might be like granted access or not. I don't really know how it works cause I've never been to like a secret room. Wow. Isn't that crazy? Oh, that's crazy. All right. Well, thanks for calling in, Carol. Thanks, Carol. Yeah. Thanks for having me. You got it. I did the breakfast, the princess breakfast. I bet you did. With my daughter. I know you did. With my daughter. Calm down. We actually had to book it and then they had the prince and it was in the castle and you meet up and then they. I thought that was. In my daughter's club 33. Yeah. So we did all, I actually got it to go with somebody who was like paid like a crazy, they paid like a crazy membership fee, like I don't like $100,000 or something ridiculous. Yeah. Something maybe that's exaggerating, but it's a lot right to, for Disneyland as an adult. And that was one of the things you get is you get a chauffeur basically to take you around and you go front of line, everything, you have access to all the private rooms. Wow. And the girl who got to go around with us was so excited to take us. But she never done it. Cause she's never done it. She worked there for like six years. So it's like really common that you could work there for a long time and not even see all of Disneyland because they keep it so, you know. I'm just going to say this and I know I'm going to piss off a lot of people, but if you're an adult and you go to Disneyland by yourself. Oh, don't say, but you were pissed my sister off, bro. My sister's a huge. I took it for her 30th birthday. That's what she wanted. I liked her, she's cool, but that's weird. What she wanted to do was Disneyland. And in her defense, it was actually, I had a really good time. I thought, you know what? Like it's, there's. What would you do it as a man? Like just you and Justin go to Disneyland and. Maybe Justin. Wow. Justin's a lot of fun. You guys are weird. You probably do mushrooms. Whoa. Okay, they're fine. That's what a crazy place to do psychedelics Disneyland. That'd be terrifying. You start doing tea cups. Oh, that makes me sick. I don't do spinny stuff at all. Our next caller is Tiffany from Canada. Hi, Tiffany. How can we help you? Hi. Thank you so much. Yeah, you're welcome. What's going on? So, first of all, I've been listening to you since I think you started and I love your podcast. So thank you. Wow. That's great. Thank you. Yeah, I've been around with you guys for a long time. So my question is I'm a landscape gardener. So I work out, I'm definitely type A and I work out year round except eight months of the year. I'm pretty heavy in labor for work. And I just feel like I get the body that I want in the winter. And then it's like, it starts going backwards during my busy season, whether it's stress or I'm doing much. And I just don't, it happens to me almost every year and I don't know how to kind of get out of this circle that I'm in. I have a good idea why. I'm assuming if you're taking that much activity and you're also trying, you probably just need to cut back on the volume of training that you're doing and feed yourself more. And what happens in the winter is it probably naturally happens, right? You work, you work less, you're indoors a little more so you're not moving around as much. You're not, the intensity is not there because the labor is not there. You probably even Comfort better. Comfort foods or eat a little more in the winter and your body's thanking you for it. And then you go to grind mode in work time and naturally just all the labor movement, maybe even to who knows if you get enough calories. Yeah, stress, like so. Can you explain like what a work day looks like when you're busy? It says here that you're a gardener so you're physical, you're outside. What does that look like in a day? So in the spring when things kind of like when my body gets shocked from me going back to work I'm dragging heavy tarps all day and I'm lifting heavy barrels of like, you know debris and stuff like that. So my spring is definitely my hardest part of the season. And then again in the fall when our leaves fall fall cleanup is hard on me as well. But I'm moving, you know, 10 to 30,000 steps a day. I'm, you know, I'm weeding, I'm digging, I'm planting. So I'm very active that way. And I do take about a month off in the spring from the gym but then it's my passion. And I feel like it just turns into all I do is work if I don't go to the gym. So I don't know how to like keep my results that I got all winter too. Like do I not go to the gym for eight months a year? I would miss that. Yeah, it's less about not going to the gym at all and the intensity and the amount of volume you're probably doing. So when you do go back to the gym what is like a gym week look like for you? What are you, how do you typically train? So I would say I started out about three times a week and I just, I don't go as long because I know that I'm now adding yet another stress onto my plate. So I'll go in and I'll train like I love shoulders. So I'll train shoulders twice a week and then I'll do a little bit of legs and then a little bit of everything else but I try not to heavy load because I know that I'm like squatting all day and I'm dead lifting all day for work. So I try to do more like a leg press or different things that maybe don't put as much or on like my back and my core. And then I slowly add a little bit more and a little bit more probably work. You're on the right track. I agree. You're on the right track. Tiffany, look at it this way, okay? You plan, I'm sure you plan on exercising for the rest of your life. Your workouts need to improve the quality of your life. So when the context of your life changes or the circumstances change, the workouts have to change. Otherwise your life is your workouts, which if that's what you want, then we can do that and then you can become a trainer, live in a gym, quit your job and now that's what you do but if that's not what you wanna do and you wanna have this amazing life and you like exercising because it improves things, you have to modify your workouts. What it's probably gonna look like is one day a week of strength training or really easy full range of motion recuperative type workouts where you're not in there to train, you're in there to feel better. Now here's the kicker. You'll get better results this way. Like you're gonna get better results if you train in this way. You should feel more energy and better from your workouts, not less, okay? I like MAP 15 for her too. MAP 15 in season would be amazing. Literally, that's like a 15, 20 minute workout every day and that would probably be ideal during the season and you'll get better results. You'll see strength, muscle and fat loss. Yeah, muscle preserving for sure. We also didn't talk about what might be happening also nutritionally. So how do you think your eating habits change from winter to work season? I would definitely say I eat less all winter. I eat, I'm pretty intuitive eater. Like I definitely hit my protein targets. I go to carnivore probably because I love eating protein. So I definitely have enough protein. And then I would say I'm probably more on the higher carbohydrate. So I eat a lot of plantain and oats and rice and definitely whole foods that way. But I think what happens is in the spring I start to actually lean out a little bit more and then I totally go the other way because my body's like what the heck is going on. And then I'd start nickel and diming my diet because I'm scared because I like being lean and I'm maybe not eating as much as maybe I would if I was listening to my body a bit more. Yeah, okay, so here's what I want you to do. Your winter's fine. Your training and diet seems like you're fine. When you get into the season either cut your training down to once a week or do something like maps 15 and I want you to add a meal. Don't worry about tracking all that stuff because you do it intuitively. Sounds like you're making good choices. I would add an extra meal to your day and that's how I would eat during the work season. And I think that'll cover your basis right there. Cause what's happening now is you're going into it and because you're dramatically increasing your activity not changing your workouts too much your body's rebounding. So you're getting cravings and now I'm overtrained and then you go in the opposite direction versus what I'm saying which is you're going in and you're prepared. So you just add a meal, make it a three, 400 calorie meal and then cut your training, your strength training way down. And I think it'll be a smooth transition if you do it that way. So either maps anabolic one day a week or maps 15. Either one of those I think would work. Totally. Do you have either one of those or both of those by chance? I do. Okay, awesome. And you know, I did start adding in meditation because I am a stress cadet and I was noticing that things that don't normally bother me were kind of getting to me this year. I was feeling like a bit of a chicken with my head cut off because I have staff and I have clients and I have all these people that, you know have questions all day long. I feel like sometimes I have like a toddler, you know cause it's answering question after question after question. And so I was feeling really maxed this year. This was the first year that I felt like I was overwhelmed and I was more tired than usual. So I am trying to like do more but put more in the good bucket. But it's tough for me because I do like control and I do like to train. And I'm always worried that I'm going to go backwards but I ended up going backwards because I do too much. It's the illusion of control. Move in the other direction, Tiffany. You're still modifying things. You're just doing it the right way. That's all. It's not, you're not giving up in other words. It's not like you're giving up on something that's better for you. You're actually moving in the right direction. But you sound pretty self-aware too. I mean, I think you're, and I think most of the things that you're doing, you're doing the right things. I don't think you're far off or tweaking. And you look like you're in incredible shape. So we are like nitpicking right now as far as, especially if you feel good. I mean, if you feel good, you're just kind of like, hey, I wish I could keep my gains from winter. Here's some slight adjustments that I think could. Yeah, I think adding the meal and modifying the training the way we said, that would do it. And then maybe one more thing to consider if you haven't done this anytime recently, like recent as in the last year or more, is actually running like a bulk for a little bit. I don't know when it suits you in your life. Like obviously I wouldn't do that add to that on top of everything else you might have going on. But when there's a time or a season in your life where it's like, hey, you know, I haven't really... Nourish. Yeah, tried to like pump my calories up higher than what I normally do and really push the weight in the gym. Like maybe run a small cycle of an intentional bulk if you haven't already. I definitely avoid that at all costs. Oh, okay. Well, Adam hit the nail on the head. Okay, well then this might be also what we're missing then. This, I mean, if you have, if you kind of have, okay, now we can get a little bit deeper into this stuff. So if you, if part of what's going on right now is you have this fear of eating too many calories because you're gonna put on body fat. And so you're always at maintenance or in a cut and you also have high stress and you have this season where you bump cut. And part of what you might be feeling is your reaction strong because of that. Yeah, that you're, you're paring down muscle and your body's going into survival mode. And it's really because it's not recovering. It's not being fed properly. And maybe what you do need to do is run a nice bulk. And I'll tell you right now, looking at you, you're not, you're not gonna get fat. Literally put on a ton of weight. Adam meal, do eat what you eat now, eat an extra meal and that'll do it for you. You know, when I, like I'm 42 this year and when I was leading up to, I'm gonna say 30, I was the girl with the biggest cooler and I ate all of the food and I didn't ever, you know, nickel and dime my diet and I did the same job and I was active. And I feel like I've, I love to help in fitness podcasts but almost to a fault because then I start second guessing in my eating too much. And I fully, and I was lean like my whole, you know, in my twenties, I was around the same weight, as I've gotten older, I've gotten scared to eat all the calories. No, you're fine. We need a bulk. Yeah, you're fine. If you were, if you were my client, we would go on a bulk right now. Totally. That's what we would do. Right now. Yeah, I would say it's, let's, let's, let's, When to stop? When to stop? I would, I would want to get you strong. So this is what I, this is what I want to do. Well, hold on a second. What do you think is going to happen? Do you think you're going to like just gain 15 pounds of body fat overnight? What's the fear? So I have hypothyroidism and I did cause that from overtraining, I believe. And so when my thyroid stopped working, I did gain a bunch of weight really rapidly. Sure. And back before I knew is not that I know all of the things, but I know a lot more now, obviously about thyroid and about stress. And so it took me four years to get that weight off in a healthy way. And so I am scared because I've been in that place where, you know, I was gaining 10 pounds in a week. And like that's terrifying for someone who is very rigid about their diet and rigid about exercise. So I'm always scared to go back to that feeling like the weight's on and I don't know how to get it off. Yeah, that's not going to happen this time. Yeah. That's not going to happen. And that, by the way, that's reasonable to be nervous. Of course. Putting 10 pounds on a week. I would be scared. I mean, you had some serious hormone issues, which I'm assuming now are remedied through medication. Yeah. It's been about 12. I've had to like really like take a look at, you know, how I thought of myself. I think I was probably just driving my body into the ground. Yeah. And so I've mental work. I've had to do a lot of physical work. And like, I have, I'm way better, but I still have that part of me that's like. We're getting somewhere now. Now I feel like I know what's going on even more. So like you, you obviously, that would be traumatic, right? To be piling on 10 pounds every week and consider yourself a healthy person. And so you've still got that in the back of your head and you got to get rid of that. And honestly, part of getting rid of that would be, let's try and go in a bulk and together I'm going to be with you. So I'm going to have Doug put you in the forum. So we're there for support because what is going to be challenging here is nothing to do with the amount of calories. It's going to be the psychological piece. It's going to be you not fucking with yourself and freaking out because, you know, you initially put on a little bit of water weight and you know, the scale goes up a couple of pounds and you freaking out and then reversing the other direction because you think it's going to happen again. So this is an area where I would be communicating with you on a pretty regular basis. So obviously every day, if you were my client because I would want to talk you off the ledge every day that it's okay, we'll stay the course. It's going to be fine. Like don't worry, we're not going to put 30 pounds on like you're going to be fine. Yeah. And Tiffany, it's literally what I'm saying. I'm pretty sure you eat regularly in the sense that you know what you eat for breakfast, lunch and dinner. It's probably not just random. Okay. Literally just, this is your bulk, okay? Add an extra meal, a small meal, that's all with what you normally eat. And don't worry about it, just add an extra meal. Boom, that's your bulk right there. Okay. And you're just going to feel better is what's going to happen. You're going to feel stronger. Okay. Thank you guys very much. You got it. You're doing the forum. I want you to stay in touch with us, Tiffany. Absolutely. Thank you. You got it. All right. I like the countertop that was in front of her. That was cool. That was really nice. She, yeah, I'm glad you said that, Adam, cause that really got to the kind of root of what was going on. She's just obviously, and I think she's aware of this. She's just running too hard, not eating enough and everything she's feeling is a result of that. Yeah. No, I mean, first of all, she is in incredible shape already. So I was like, man, we're really like splitting hairs here. She looks great. She's in good shape. But what's going on? Yeah. But then when I was like, hey, how long has it been since you've ran a bulk? It was like 10, 12 years. Oh, okay. Yeah. No, you definitely could, and that's just it. That's 14,000 steps, a laborious job like that and training is just too much. Our bodies and her body is not responding the way it should. Now this is like, this is like one of the hardest parts about what we do because we're virtual and we don't have this person as a client because this is like, I'm talking to you every day type of deal or just like, how are you doing today, Tiffany? Did you get that extra meal in? And then like, how do you feel? Oh, I don't. And then she expresses simple advice, but not easy. Yeah, exactly. Like then she's expressing, oh my God, I noticed the scale went up or I feel that and then you can talk, it's okay. Don't worry, we're fine. You're doing good. You know what I'm saying? You just have to have that conversation. So I hope she trusts us and the advice. She does do the bulk. She does stick with it. I know she asks us a timeframe. Do it at least, Tiffany, for six to eight weeks, you can afford to build it back up so you can get that flexibility. Our next caller is Drew from Oregon. Drew, what's up, man? How can we help you? How are we doing? Good. Good deal. First, just want to say thanks for dropping me on. I've listened to you guys for quite a while throughout some of the education process. You kind of feel like I learned as much as you guys as school. Just took a job not long ago after graduating in June. First of all, I just wanted to say, you guys kind of put that job on the radar. Training seniors at an independent living facility and a lot of the information I got from you guys in terms of what it's like to train that demographic wouldn't have been on my map. And I leave this job more days than not do I really get paid for this, though? That's awesome. Sweet. Yeah, I really appreciate that. That's awesome. The school and science thing, I get really excited about it. Main question is just how to navigate over explaining some of the science or getting to end of the weeds in detail versus some of the residents just want to show up, kind of deal with their tools and get moving, which is great. But I think the why is everybody that's important is what we do. It's very important, but remember, well, let me ask you this. Why do you do what you do? Is it because you like helping these people or just because you want to teach them about the science behind what they're doing? Oh, it's helping the people. Yeah. For sure. I've gotten a couple 90-year-olds that tell me they move around their house better so they can walk X amount longer than before. More gratifying than I would've thought. But I geek out, I love the science behind it. I love the little technique, little details that not everybody does, and they don't need to. Yeah, no, you don't need to come in. I mean, unless they're into it and they find it, I used to have a client who was in his 80s, he was retired, he was a retired anesthesiologist and he loved the why, the science behind what we were doing. Those are the conversations I had with them, but all the other, and I'm generalizing, right, but all the other advanced-age clients that I trained, there was two things that they valued through coming to my facility. One was obviously the fitness that I provided, the ability to improve their mobility, their strength, their stability, their independence. The other thing that they valued was the companionship. A lot of these people, their grandkids and kids, don't visit them on a regular basis. They're either on their own or with assisted living, and they love to come in and just talk with me. And if you wanna be effective, you want to provide a great experience, not necessarily educating them. I mean, a lot of them don't care about the why, they just like that it feels good and it works, and they love to come see Drew and he's a good kid and oh, I can't wait to talk to Drew and what's happening at home, Drew, and you're getting married soon and they'll ask you these kind of questions, and then that's what it's all about. Now, if you wanna scratch that itch where you get to geek out on stuff, you might need to find another outlet, like forums on social media or groups where you could talk to other fanatics like yourself. But if you really wanna be effective, what you don't wanna do is always remember the experience that you're trying to provide them, and it's for them, it's not necessarily for you. And I will say this, okay, here's the other side of it. You'll find tremendous value out of the wisdom that you'll get from some of these people, and a lot of them won't have nothing to do with the field that you work in, but rather things that you still haven't learned because you're a young man and they've lived a lot of life. Drew, I'm gonna share something with you that is gonna come from a place of love, but it's gonna feel like I'm probably attacking you. So in my career, most of what I did was train trainers, and I had the opportunity to work with a lot of PhDs, master's degrees, brilliant, brilliant minds. And when trainers struggled with this, and I'd asked that same question, Sal, what's our desired outcome? Do we wanna truly help these people? Of course they'd say yes, they'd say, but when you feel the need to do that, it comes from a place of insecurity, of feeling like I need to prove to everybody how smart I am, versus really trying to help this person. This is no different than my insecurity around money. So for a long time, when I started to come up from being a poor kid and I became successful, I'd find myself in these rooms, and as soon as we started talking to people, I felt the need to tell everybody my bankroll and how successful I was, and that's coming from a place of insecurity. None of these people do I have to prove that to. What is that doing for building a relationship? So that feeling that I'd have to do that is coming from an insecure place. My PhDs and master's that worked for me for a long time, it's the same thing too. Is they had some deep rooted insecurity about being the smartest person in the room, or being educated or intelligent, and so they get into these places where they have an opportunity to teach, and then they would overteach. And I'd be constantly telling them, it's so great that you're this intelligent, it's like you're one of my favorite best trainers that I have here as far as knowing your shit, but you're talking to some kid or some lady who doesn't give a shit about the science. And if our goal, if we agree that my goal and your goal is to truly help these people, then you have to recognize you're allowing yourself to get in the way of that by over talking and over speaking. Yeah, usually this is a challenge, by the way, with new graduates always do this. And I think it's because you just came out of school. You're like an evangelist to that point. Yeah, and you really want it, like this is what I know, there's two things. One, you enjoy talking about this stuff. And then two, what Adam's saying, which is whether you're aware of it or not, this is very common with new trainers and coaches, is you want to validate your value. And so this is what I know, and this is what the body does, and here's what's happening to your humorous. And it's internally rotated, and here's why your scapula hurts, and all this other stuff. But if you really enjoy talking about this stuff, talk to people who like to hear about that, and you'll get way more value. Yeah, start videotaping yourself doing that, and start producing content, like turn that into something that, somebody else like a potential trainer could reap the benefit from in terms of you breaking down all the nuance and examples of clients that you've helped and how you've been able to do that meticulously through utilizing these methods. And yeah, there's nothing wrong with being passionate about this stuff. And it's just, yeah, I catch myself, like if I learn some new concept like that, like bringing it right back to my clients, and they'll get all excited to educate them, when in fact, I've learned over the years to kind of use that and shuttle that elsewhere, and then also to like apply it almost in a sneaky way. So it shows up in their programming, but it's not, I'm not overwhelming. There's nothing wrong with being excited and passionate and learning something new and wanting to give that information, because that was the same way too, okay? So that's totally okay. But just understand how you're communicating, and if the desired outcome, if you truly believe in your heart, is to help that kid or to help that person, then getting them to adopt whatever it is you're teaching is so much more important than them knowing that you know how many layers this goes deep and all the technical- And they wouldn't even remember that if they don't care anymore. They won't. It's like you're just talking on the wall. That's right. That's a waste of time. That's right. And so just remember that as you do that, if that's the desired outcome, then getting them to adhere to it. And by the way, when you hack into this at a guy that has the intelligence and has the level that you do, it's a superpower. It's like you have the intelligence now to talk to doctors and talk to very intelligent people. And so you can have that conversation when it's needed and you'll impress them. But then you have the ability to connect to people who actually feel insecure about that level of intelligence that aren't gonna ignore you. Because what you don't even know what happens is sometimes when someone is talking to the hell, if you hear someone you're like, I understand, nothing this guy is saying, you shut down. You shut down. And you're too embarrassed to admit that you don't understand what you're saying. So they just sit there and nod their head. Meanwhile, they're getting- Or worse, they're bored. And now you've created a crappy experience and they don't wanna do it. You have the same difference, right? You're not breaking through is what it is. And a lot of times it's ourself getting in the way of that. And you can still be passionate and excited, but then just as a passion and excited is connecting to that person who doesn't understand at that level. Yeah. All right. I mean, you guys are spot on one. I've thought is kind of corrupt in my head. Definitely at times, you know, the talk of the wall. You know, I do my way of my mind works. It's, you know, I need to know the why and a lot of things. And I've known that that's not how everybody clicks. The majority don't. Yeah. So, you know, and wanting to be effective like you guys have said, it's- That's it. Drew, if you were- If- If- If you were my client, I would get deep into the science because you like it. And that's probably gonna be very effective for you. But most people are not like that. But if you were my client, I had clients like you. And I would, we would go as far and as deep as they wanted and it was really effective. But I'm gonna tell you, most of these advanced age people who are living in these assisted living situations, asked them about their marriage, asked them about the kids that they raised and where they grew up and how has the world changed? And what do you think about raising kids? And you're gonna get so much out of that. It's not, I can't even tell you how much I got out of doing that. And then for them, they're like, they're gonna love seeing ya. Cause a lot of them, they want, they don't just wanna move better and feel better. They, and maybe they don't even realize it, that that companionship and that connection dramatically improves their health and they want it. And you'll see, they'll show up, they'll fight over seeing you and they're gonna wanna show up even more because of that. And I will say part of what I love about the job that they've gotten is they schedule that time, man. I get to connect with you. I went to Crater Lake with them yesterday. Oh, great. I'm like psyched about this gig. It's in the classes, we're going over some exercises, that type of thing. But I, you know, would echo what you're saying and the connection to unity. That's been every bit as special as getting to geek out on my stuff. That's awesome. You're gonna kill it, Drew. Yeah, that's a great space. I do agree with you. Don't drown them in, and I've made classes boring in that way. I've made a punch for me. Yeah. And that stuff is all it's about. Nope. Be effective. Super common, bro. Just so you know, super common. But you're gonna do great. The fact that you care and you want to get better is everything. Yeah. Any suggestions on turn that shit off? I mean, that's the reason why I went the direction I went with the advice is because if it is something that like me, my insecurity with the money thing, it's something that I had to work on internally. It's not like, there's not the words. It's not like, oh, I was missing the words or I need to say something differently as much as I needed to work internally on that insecurity. I felt that I needed to prove to people. And so if you have that, that's where to go. Go work on that. At first, your spot on it was a lot of justification of like, I promise I earned this job. That's right. Yeah, that's right. You don't need to prove that. Especially if they've already accepted you. And by the way, of course, man, you're with a bunch of seniors, older people that have been through life and probably some of them are really smart and intelligent and successful and all these things like that. And so here comes this young guy fresh out of college and you got it, you know. No, they love you. Let me show you how smart I am with that. But that's a place. They don't, you know what they're thinking? They're thinking, look at this young man. Look at the place. Oh, I can't wait to do what he's doing. And I can't wait to talk to him about what he's going to go through in life. That's what they're thinking. So those are the conversations you need to have with them. Yeah. All right. I agree. You got it. Right on, Drew. Thanks Drew. You're good. You got a way to redirect. So I appreciate it guys. No problem. All right, man. That's it. I loved it so much because I would ask them and they loved it. Wisdom. Oh, oh my God. I got a two year old and this happens. And you know, what do you think about that? And what was it like? Business advice, I used to get all the time, it was amazing. Oh, what was it like when you first moved to the area? And I, this woman told me what the area was like and what real estate was like. And I was like, oh my God, it was so amazing. And they show up and then we would work out while having these incredible conversations. You know, there are those occasional clients that wanna know all those details, but they're rare. It's rare. Most clients could give a shit. They, you just gotta be effective and help them adopt the behaviors. And a lot of people don't care about, you know, how the patella glides over the femur and whatever, they don't give a shit. It's like, oh my knee hurts because of this, cool. Show me what to do. Yeah, I'm glad he didn't get insulted by that. Sometimes that's a hard one for me to have because I tell you what, you tell the PhD that, especially coming from my position, where you're more red than I am. And I'm telling you, you're insecure. That fucking stinks sometimes for a lot of these people. But that's the truth. That's what that is. That's that you're getting in your own way because you feel this need that you need to prove to yourself, to these people. And I get it because I have my own insecurities, my own issues in it, but it's internal work. It's not like the words. It's not, you have to, you have to work on. Funny story too. I'll never forget I had this surgeon that I trained. He was just really crusty old. And we ended up becoming great friends. His wife hired me and she told me, she warned me. She said, so and so is he's crusty. He's a good of a bar. And he's going to be, he's going to be whatever jerk. And this, you know, but he's a nice guy. Trust me the whole deal. And so I talked to him normal and I did exercise with him. I'll never forget he wanted to test my knowledge. And I don't remember what he said exactly, but he said something very technical and medical. And I answered back very nonchalant. And I remember his face like he looked at me and said, how did you know that? And I said, well, you think I, how do you think I got to do what I'm doing? And then that was it. I earned his respect. But it wasn't me asserting myself because I would have come across and let me tell you that. And then exactly, especially with another intelligent person, then it turns into a competition, pissing competition that you normally eventually will lose. And so, and that by the way is one of the most beautiful things and attractive qualities that you can find in another person is talk to somebody and you think you assume that they're not that intelligent. And then as you start to pull layers back and dig deeper, you realize like, oh shit, this motherfucker knows what he's talking about. Like that's so impressive. Versus the kid or the person who leads with, it's just like the money thing. Like it's, you know what's really powerful. You ever meet somebody and you don't even know they're super rich and then you get to like them? And then you start asking them questions and you find out. And then it's impressive. Versus the guy who says, I did this and I did that. Look at my forehead. And then everybody is turned off by that character. Versus if you were asking me those questions. And then I was like, oh yeah, by the way, I've done this and I've done that. And then you're like, oh shit. And now you're more receptive to hear it. I had a climbing one. I had a client that drove a truck with 200 something thousand miles beat up truck or whatever he'd show up and I'd train him. And after a year, he invited me over for lunch and I went to his house and it was the biggest house I've ever seen. It was a mansion. And I respected him so much because I had no idea. I just knew he was this nice guy that worked with me and hired me. And it was, it was totally that experience. Look, if you like Mind Pump, head over to mindpumpfree.com and check out all of our free fitness and health guides they're free and they're awesome. You can also find us on social media. Justin is on Instagram at Mind Pump Justin. I'm on Instagram at Mind Pump to Stefano and Adam is on Instagram at Mind Pump Adam.