 Welcome to the wide world of eSports, a show devoted to all things eSports. I'm your host, Katharine Norr. Today, our topic is eSports health and vitality, leveling up your wellness game. My guest is Gary Kleinman, the founder of Skins GG. Welcome, Gary. Hey, nice to be here. Nice to talk to you in Hawaii. Fantastic. Well, okay, so we want to hear about Skins GG. What is it? What is it? It's a health and wellness platform for gamers. The history behind it quite simply is if you look at traditional stick and ball athletes, athletics and sports going back 25 years, they did not have any health wellness or nutrition. In the traditional sports now they all have health wellness and nutrition and that's, you know, whether it's Pilates nutritionists and gaming in eSports with the growth and the dollars involved. It's going to go into that direction as well because of the extended time people, not only game, but the dollars involved and the franchises and what have you. We got ahead of it and created a platform for health and wellness. So when I say a platform, we have, you know, a wide variety of products, but in addition to that, there's a job board because our tagline is we power your performance. And we look at performance not only as gaming performance, but life performance. So you can get a job through our site. We're adding a couple of neuroscience games to the site, which we can talk about. So really our ethos is to power the life of gamers across all their touch points. Well, Gary, this is really interesting to me because I spent many years as a triathlete and runner. I did a number of marathons and one of the most important things that we used to fuel our performances was like electrolytes and various gels that we use because if you. It was interesting if we had a bad performance. A lot of times it was because of our nutrition and because of our hydration and electrolytes. So, I was very interested in skins GG because of the fact that you are providing that very essential in game nutrition for athletes as they play. So tell us about the nutrition that you offer for during play and, you know, whether it's competitive, you know, like esports or versus gaming. Yeah, so we look at our market, if you will, is esports, obviously professional gamers, but also the casual and competitive gamer. I mean, a gamer is a gamer. And there are a lot of physical ailments that are kind of unique to gamers and that's pain, discomfort, focus, anxiety, sleep deprivation, healthy eyes. So we looked at a whole range in all of our products are scientifically tested. The pain relief is actually based upon a formula from an Israeli pharmaceutical company that developed it for anti inflammatory conditions like IBS and psoriasis. We found by adding 1000 milligrams of CBD and had tremendous efficacy for topical pain relief. But the end game experience is we have an energy product that is not going to give you a higher crash. It's just going to elevate your focus. It's interesting that you brought up electrolytes because we have a new product. Hopefully we'll launch it in a month. I've been eating or tasting, if you will electrolytes, signing off on flavors for the last three days. But most people don't realize you will because you just gave us that interesting history about your athletic background. Hydration and electrolytes are actually two separate functionalities. Hydration is really about fluids. Electrolytes is magnesium, calcium, sodium chloride, and that's what really fuels your cells. And we looked at this and said, what do gamers need? They need to fuel their cells. They need to stay focused and electrolytes will do that. It also does several other things and without getting it too scientifically, but it's really, really important to replace your electrolytes. Most of the hydration products in the market, in fact, I venture to guess every single hydration product or electrolyte product is a powder you put into water, you shake it up, and you drink 32 ounces of water over whatever period of time. And it's the combination of that that people take. And that's true, whether it's a liquid IV or noon and some of the other products that are out there. I looked at that with our product innovation team and said, one of the things we don't want people to do or we find that people don't want to do, especially gamers, is to get up in the middle of the game and have to go to the bathroom because they consume so much fluid of 32 ounces over whatever period of time. Our electrolyte boost is a concentrated powder that you do not need water. You just put it on your tongue and swallow it and you're getting your electrolytes. And we have a wide variety of flavors. It really tastes like candy, even though there's no sugar in it. It's a fascinating recipe formulation that a food scientist came up with. And I love it. I mean, I've been having, you know, what a grape lemonade, strawberry, a biscuit, and a couple other interesting flavors. So it's really about allowing people to perform and do what they're doing longer without the intrusion of getting up, going to the bathroom, drinking and what have you. Sure. And you know that it sounds like it's quite portable. Is that right? Yes. It is very portable. And because it's not water dependent, you can put it in a backpack. You're talking about a four gram serving. So it's a tiny pouch. If you will, tear it off, put on your tongue, swallow and you're done. Sure. So let's go back a little bit. Why did you create the company? What led you to an esports gaming type company rather than address a different market? I tripped across esports about six and a half, six years ago. I read an article about a Canadian female gamer who played a League of Legends tournament, Madison Square Garden, and the article said there were 17,000 people there. And I obviously thought that that was a typographical error because I just could not fathom 17,000 people watching somebody play a video game when I'm even throwing my kids out of the house saying shoot hoops and stop getting bed sores and all the kind of things that parents have a way of saying to their kids. And I have for many, many, many years owned an entertainment and sports marketing company and I was fascinated by what was going on numerically, if you will, and the engagement in esports. So I took several months to really learn what was going on in gaming. And my takeaway was that esports or and or gaming is not about the game. It's about the community around the game. And that's pretty powerful. The communication, the engagement, what have you. So I ended up creating a digital media network called WAM that was about the lifestyle and culture of gaming. OTT platform still runs on Comcast and a few other services. Well, what kept coming up as we're doing production content, the doctors were telling us that their practices were exploding with injuries from gamers. Gamers were telling me, Hey, you know, I've got sleep deprivation. I'm gaming till one in the morning that I can't sleep I have to get up go to work, practice whatever it is. Your eyes are being strained, their hands were hurting their necks were hurting. And as gorgeous as these gaming chairs are, they're not really ergonomically sound for extended gaming so they're at all these physical and psychological conditions that was coming from I said, Well, who's addressing that. That is a lifetime issue and since gamers start young, you know, 14 year old that beds gaming eight hours a day is going to have an early onsite of carpal tunnel syndrome. So we looked at this and said, Let's address that come up with products that have tremendous efficacy that will power the performance of gamers give them a healthy lifestyle, educate them about nutrition, and really foster health wellness and nutrition in the gaming world that previously has been Doritos and Red Bull and all the other kind of kind of food groups that we don't cosign as good. So that that was really the the the origin behind it we just produced a three volume e book on the top 25 gaming injuries how to prevent them and or how to treat them, which I'm more than happy to share with whoever wants it they can email me more than happy to send that out. So there is a tremendous amount of need for education about your body and the demands that gaming has on it. And I think you go back five years, you know people thought gaming was just people sitting kind of the corner of a couch in a basement anti social acne scarred people just gaming and it's not that at all. It's it's the antithesis of that. And then you start seeing all the universities and colleges that have academic scholarships for gamers, the your physical well being has to be elevated to compete at that level. And that's why we created the products. That's why we created the the job board for somebody to upload their resume will match them with every gaming job based upon their skill set, not their job title, why we're creating six neuroscience games to help people understand where they, they look on what their skill is on spatial awareness, speed, accuracy, target discrimination and things like that. So it's interesting that you've entered the eSports ecosystem in this area. I've previously had the gamer doc and psych sensei as guests, and, you know, you happen to provide the products and, you know, so that's really interesting. Have you had eSports athletes come to you with stories about how your product has help your products have helped them, or about their specific challenges. Yeah, without a doubt. I think that the the the hero product, if you will, is the topical pain relief. I mean, you know when you're playing with your hands all that it just gets stiff no matter what you're going to do. And our topical pain relief is is phenomenal. It just works minutes. Some of the stories I get from gamers, you know, that have the product is they say my my grandmother takes it because it helps her rumored toward arthritis or some of you my father has tennis elbow so he's grabbing it kind of thing you know we have a few sponsorships with influencers. One significant one is a fellow by the name of Troy field was a professional volleyball player and a significant streamer. Troy practices volleyball in the morning and he ladders his shoulder up with the pain relief. And then after he streams it's on his fingers and his hands. So it works for inflammation anywhere but especially for gamers, because you know you've got, and you might know better than I believe the statistic is that a gamer is utilizing 200 moves, a minute, or something like that, with their, you know their hands their eyes their fingers and what have you. That repetitive motion is just going to cause discomfort and pain, and we address that so yes we have lots of anecdotal evidence and a lot of people, I get text messages all the time saying I need more samples and more samples and what have you so yeah it it does work. I think the other area that I'm, for whatever reason, I love it is that the healthy I product, you know we don't really understand the damage that the blue lights having on us on everything. When we game or on the computer we're on our phone so be able to reduce that and to reduce eye strain is critical because macular health, especially as you age is just so important nobody really thinks about that. And that's a whole nother area that our formula is great it's based upon a national Institute of Health formula for healthy eyes. It's interesting that you mentioned people that are not gamers who use your products effectively. So I realized your target market, it are the e sports athletes and gamers, but are you finding more and more that you have an extended target market in you know amongst those who are not gamers. Yes. You know we look at that part of the pond as our halo audience. And if you look at households around the world, the penetration of a gaming device is up in the 90% because of the growth of mobile gaming. Right so there are a lot of people that game that really don't self identify as a gamer, because they're playing words with friends, eight hours a week but if you were to ask them they're not a gamer, but they are right because they're playing eight hours a week. They're competitive they want to beat their friends they want to get better at it but they're as much of a gamer as somebody on a call a duty team in in significant ways. The benefit of gamers is pretty significant there's three billion people gaming every day around the world but in direct answer your question. Sure. People that game with their parents and their parents are tennis players are going oh my god. I got to put that on my elbow. And I get it from some of our at the agencies that we work with that they're not true gamers and the true definition of the world even though they they game. And then someone said oh my god this is like incredible that the one thing about gamers. And I think it's a challenge in the early onset of health wellness and nutrition in gaming is gamers to a large extent think they're invincible. Right so they don't really acknowledge pain or they go and it's no big thing as they get older. I don't see that manifest and go wait a second, I need to treat that as you know again most people don't realize the average age of a gamer is 37, and it's split basically, you know 50 50 male female. And I love, and I don't know if you have this experience went on with non gamers and they all say here, what do you do you're in gaming I don't understand health wellness and gaming why do they need it and all that kind of stuff. What do you mean the average age of a gamer, and they'll go 1617 you say 37 and it's like, well what do you mean 37 right. So that market is very very right for nutrition and that's true. We don't have a vitamin series out yet I think we will in time. So a lot of vitamins are going to be critical. One of the things with our electrolyte boost product is we can add more vitamin so it has lysine in it vitamin C plus magnesium and all the other electrolytes. But that's an easy product for us to put vitamin E in it. We can put non caffeine energize in it, because there's some really cool ingredients now. In two weeks I'm speaking on eSports at the supply west ingredient show in Las Vegas. So I'm going to have a kick talking to them about what they should be creating from a healthy substance for gamers because gamers, gaming is just going to grow. I mean it's not going anywhere. So the average age of a professional eSports athlete would be more in the range of 18 to 25. Do you see your products as extending the, the life of a competitive eSports athlete. I wouldn't go so far as to say we can extend it as much as I would love to say that these drugs are miracles and I can give you three more years of gaming. That would be hyperbole and I'd sound like an ad guy. But I do think what we can do is make the years that you're gaming more comfortable, pain free, teach you how to stretch, and that may give you longevity as a gamer, because you will reduce your incident or probability of injury, you'll sleep which may have an impact on how long you can game, but I'd be hard pressed to say, use our suite of products and you get three extra years of a COD team. No, but I think what we do by the wide breadth of things that we offer is that we can make gaming more comfortable. I think we will make you healthier. I think what ends up also happening is people, as they're using our products, they become more aware of their general health and wellness. So they're probably going to drink less sodas and they're probably going to maybe have an extra salad as opposed to a pizza, because when you start thinking about health wellness and nutrition, and you start thinking about how do I reduce the inflammation in my body. I think our products help do that, but it's also an insight of some of the other things that you can do in your life. And that will I do believe will make it easier to play longer, but I wouldn't, as I said, say we're extending the career. But if you want to say that we are be more than happy to use that quote. So we're looking at products that help health and wellness of Esports athletes. How does health and wellness in gaming compare with that for traditional sport. Great question. Right now, it's nascent. There are very few, albeit some esports organizations that are bringing in nutritionists that have a very, very low level education program. Right. It'll do things like stretch your thumb or stretch your wrist or stretch your back and take some breaks. There's so much more to it. And that's why if you were to look at the 25 injuries that the gamers sustain, most people would be hard pressed to come up with 25, but there are 25. And our ebook has pictures of them and certainly recommendations and suggestions of how to treat and how to prevent. So the growth and the opportunities in gaming. And when we talk about the opportunities in gaming any sports, you know, gamers have a tendency to age out early right any sports professional as you said, they're aging out fairly early well what do they do, you know their traffic controllers the FAA literally is is recruiting gamers for air traffic controllers makes perfectly good sense. That's a long career, right they can do that forever in a day. Even with the military they're hiring gamers for the drone program. They outfly the pilot so even though you sports athletes may age out in their early to mid 20s. There's an entire career opportunity that's based upon that skill set that they're going to need this foundational health wellness knowledge and implementation so that they can do that longer. And the very first show that I had was interviewing major general Frank Muth, who start was one of the people who started us army sports and we talked about how the US army uses those skills in across different military operations and, you know so I think, I think it has such broad application and it seems like your company is interested in educating that segment of the population to understand a little bit more about health and wellness. Absolutely a high priority in the ethos of our company. It is also our biggest challenge, because we're talking to a group of people that really haven't made the connection that my my wrist hurts or my back hurts or I'm not sleeping. And where is that solution that has been created for me so we're bridging that gap I mean the one comment I did want to say, I'm not green who is a Hall of Famer from the Green Bay Packers and the e sports coach at Lakeland University. He's not he's that one of our advisor. But what he has done as the e sports coach at Lakeland is literally taking his entire protocol from a football you know being a running back with the Green Bay Packers, and he puts his teams to the exact same training and the diet and the nutrition. And he replicates it he said because you, you have to have that to really be at the top of your game and I think e sports athletes and especially those that want to be e sports athlete. You know earlier, the maximized their physical and psychological well being in order to compete at the level. Because as you will know, the more money that goes into the sport, the more competition there's going to be, which means if you want to succeed, you have to be the best version of yourself, and health wellness and nutrition is a critical aspect of that. So you sell your products outside of the United States and do you have to get any particular approval for you to sell like any government agencies have to like, certify your products. So we do not currently sell outside of the United States but we are finalizing distribution in China, as we speak. The challenge is not that we can't sell out of the country. The shipping cost is prohibited. So for shipping you know for us to send something to Canada is almost three times the cost of the product. So it doesn't make sense you need to figure out the fulfillment. In terms of government approval. The entire supplement world is dietary supplements that is not FDA required. We can't make certain claims as a result of that. We do have some products that we're looking at that will have OTC or drugs sign off, which will then have to go through the FDA approval process. But most everything that you see in all the energy drinks are not FDA approved and nor do they need to be. The only other thing that we have in our pain relief is CBD and CBD has depending on who you talk to is sanctioned not sanctioned the FDA has not formally approved CBD in any particular form. So federally it's not supported, but it's everywhere and anywhere so it is legal, but depending on where you are CBD is an issue, you can't sell CBD products on Amazon. Right so, and people are, they just call it hemp. There's a lot of confusion between what is and THC CBD and what have you, but that's the only ingredient that we have to be careful with our CBD is farmer grade CBD it's 99.9% pure CBD there's no THC is that you're not going to get high you're not going to get buzz and it's it's really just a tremendous anti inflammatory agent with the other base formula that we have, but from the legal requirement now it's it's all good you can ship you can send it to Canada you can actually send CBD to Canada you couldn't two years ago, and I do think in the next two years CBD will be legal with the interesting thing with professional sports so golf, not a problem with CBD baseball is not a problem the NFL and we're affiliated with the NFL Alumni Association and the retired players Congress is the NFL has no restriction on CBD, except the players cannot commercialize it pictorially. Okay, use it they, but they just can't endorse it in a commercial which I will figure that one out. I don't know. I think some of that without any two political is the pharmaceutical companies. They want to own the CBD space, as opposed to right now it's kind of anybody and everybody, but I think another two years. CBD will be everywhere, but there was a there was a period of time with the CBD you, if you had it you couldn't get a bank account. Oh, I see CBD because it's not federally supported. Now that's not an issue so we're you know baby steps. Exactly. Well, you know I know I'm interested in your products and I'm sure a lot of people watching are. How can they find them. www.skins.gg just go on there we buy it and go out the next day. Okay, fantastic. Well Gary, thank you so much. I appreciate your being on the show. And thank you to our viewers for joining us today. Next week my guest will be Mark depth, the director of UCI esports to talk about collegiate esports. See you then.