 Okay, we're live Hi everybody welcome to the wikimedia monthly tech talk for May This month will be covering wiki media and the w3c our presenters are Evan proto Romo our product manager and Gales dubeck senior software engineer We will be broadcasting on the YouTube stream that you see in front of you ask Our speakers will be talking for 45 minutes and afterwards feel free to ask questions on the YouTube stream And the IRC channel wikimedia office I'll gather those and share those with the folks who are giving the talk And if you have other questions that you want to ask afterwards, maybe something comes to you later You can always ask those on the monthly tech talks page And before we get started just a note that anybody can get involved in tech talks There's a link down here, and we'll post the sick and after the talk and Without further ado over to our speakers Yeah, hi everybody. I'm Evan Pedro mo a product manager in the core platform group, and I am also the w3c advisory committee representative for the WMF the foundation has only recently joined the W3c and that means a lot of new Processes for us and a lot of new opportunities and so those of us who've been involved in the process of joining the w3c Wanted to do this conversation to tell people in the foundation about the w3c and solve all the mysteries of What's going on with the w3c? So in this talk? We're going to talk about what the w3c is Why the foundation joined as a member what we as a member of that consortium get out of the process how the w3c process works and then on a finer level What it's like to represent the wiki media foundation in a w3c Group, so I'm going to talk as the ac rep. I'm sorry as the advisory As the organizational representative I'm going to talk about the kind of high-level stuff and We'll pause for questions after I finish and then gills is going to take over and talk about his particular experience working with the web performance group at the w3c so What is the w3c? the acronym is yet another interesting numbered acronym acronym it stands for the worldwide web consortium That's a doubt 3w so it becomes w3 The worldwide web consortium is an international community that develops open standards to ensure the long-term growth of the web That's a Important word and I want to kind of highlight what a standard is Standard is a defined format whether it's a file format or a network protocol or even a behavioral protocol ways that People or organizations work together that we agree on that lets different software on the web operate together And that's really kind of what makes the web so magical is that we've got all this software whether it's browsers or servers Bots that are all working together written by different people without directly agreeing We all agree on this one standard and then we can work work forward and do really interesting work together on it some of the best known standards you may have heard of from the w3c HTML CSS XML SVG which is The vector graphics Format RDF is another one that is very important for doing structured data HTTP The w3c is involved in As the way that everything moves across the web. In fact, you could say that HGP kind of is the web E pub is a publications format that it for for books and other long-form publications, so When we say that w3c makes Standards these are some of the very important standards that the w3c makes The organization was founded in 1994 by Sir Tim burners Lee Sir Tim As people tend to call him was the creator of the web Literally was the person who created the first standards the first software and he made the w3c in order to further That development work so that instead of having a single organization that's involved with that Maintains the system. It is something that is shared by all the stakeholders involved in the web It is w3c has a very interesting Organizational structure. It's based in four different Universities Both in the u.s. And europe as well as in east asia there are 59 full-time staff members who work for the w3c And there are 445 member organizations of the worldwide web consortium Now that word consortium is an interesting word that i also want to underline because a consortium is an association thank you Wiktionary an association of businesses And non-commercial institutions that are working on a joint venture In the case of the w3c the joint venture that we are creating is the worldwide web And so there are a number of different stakeholders who are involved in creating that worldwide web They're the obvious ones like browser event browser vendors google mozilla Microsoft apple opera are all members of the w3c And they participate in the standards process Excuse me Because it's important for them To make sure that the web is interoperable Also a lot of hardware makers Both for handheld devices desktop devices network switches As well as you know chips all kinds of hardware makers have a stake in in the web Network operators like Verizon Viacom Comcast Software vendors Especially folks who make server software, but to some extent some other kinds of software a patchy software foundation is probably a familiar face there IBM is a big player sap sales force Another type of member are web publishers These are folks who are less involved in like software as a service or software that That they are they are selling that uses the web, but really concentrating on single big sites So that's anything from facebook twitter by bydu alibaba disney the raa So all kinds of publishers who are putting content out on the on the web have a stake in seeing the w3c Standards move forward. Finally. There is a strong research aspect to the w3c's work often there are performance issues or Breakthroughs in new technology so universities also participate as full members in the w3c oxford stanford mit And down the line a lot in europe and And north america, but also quite a few in the in the far east So given that there are that many members in this large Organization who are participating in the standard process. Why did the wmf join? What is our stake in this? I think for anyone who's Been involved in web development There is a tendency to think of ourselves as Passive players that someone else is making the decisions about how Web technology works, you know, we say, oh, it would be great to have this page do this thing But that's not really how the web works or not all browsers support that mechanism or it's too slow Or you need a plug-in or it's a proprietary extension That's that's needed to make this kind of thing work And so we kind of take no for an answer in terms of pushing forward Possible features for our communities for our projects that simply don't work with the web as it is today But it's important to remember that our projects are some of the biggest publications on the web, you know As the fifth biggest web Website we are really a 800 pound gorilla on the web And as one that is really focused on Publishing we're almost unique our software some of the most used software on the web Just because people are using our using our software and generating pages over and over all day every day it's That way of thinking of being passive about the web and the advancement of the web doesn't really match with the wiki media foundation of 2019 we are simply too big to be passive participants in the web We owe it to our communities to take our seat at the table and make the web work for them we Our mission Is simply too important to take no for an answer when it comes to the enabling stack of web technologies We have to start saying if it doesn't work that way we need to change it. So it does work that way Part of our movement strategy for 2030 is to become the essential infrastructure Of the ecosystem of free knowledge and that means that we have to have the enabling network around us to connect with those who share our vision and to make the knowledge that that we are Enabling available throughout the world and we really depend on the web to do that Finally, you know and something that's really kind of important when we're talking about sharing Free knowledge is that we've built up considerable institutional knowledge about performance using the web Not just performance, but about different kinds of media technologies internationalization accessibility we've learned a lot During the time that we've developed these pro projects and the web Needs to know what we know We have a definite knowledge sharing Opportunity here where we can make the web better based on what we've learned from experience So as members What do we get out of this? organizational membership There aren't a lot of coffee cups or Tote bags that we get out of the Out of becoming a member what we do get is a place at the table to start Making decisions about how web technology works First and foremost, we can make improvements to existing technologies We can literally ask for and get changes to existing web formats and protocols if we think that A new html tag or a new css selector would make sense and make Wikipedia run faster or let us deliver knowledge in a different way to a new set of Audiences that is something that we can actually move forward within the auspices of the w3c We can also fix problems if we have things that don't work right that don't deliver the right kind of Information in the ecosystem. We can actually start fixing problems in existing standards today we can As part of the w3c propose new standards if we think that there are new ways that new kinds of knowledge that we'd like to share new Ways of interacting protocols ways to do things faster cheaper Bigger better we can actually start new initiatives within the w3c And all those players will have the opportunity and often a big incentive to implement what we propose We also have If not an absolute veto we have an opportunity to stop Breakage before it happens as new web technologies come out We get to give a thumbs up or thumbs down on every new standard that comes out So if there's something that is proposed that's going to cause problems for one of our projects or Causing undue burden on our on our systems. We can actually say hey, this isn't going to work for us Or it's going to need some changes before it will work for us So we don't have to wait until some something is Has long been implemented in all the browsers before we say hey, this is garbage We get to you know, give our thumbs up and thumbs down very early in the process Finally, we get to Participate with the other members in setting the direction for the w3c as From a high level strategy. We can say we think these things are important We think these things are less important and we'd like to see the Organization developing new strategies in these different areas So Those are A number of things that we can do to influence the development of the web as members of w3c How it works in In particular is very interesting and very distributed the w3c's primary focus for Developing new technologies and new standards is a Entity that are called groups and there are actually a bunch of different kinds of groups, which I'm going to get into But these groups are specific working groups that are made up of Participants from lots of the Member organizations that are focusing on specific areas of the web that we want to move forward or improve Each of these groups has a focus on a particular area and the groups are really empowered by the w3c and the member organizations to Make a lot of changes in in those areas. So those groups are responsible for writing the standards documents that define how they how the How the new technology will work These the groups often meet Regularly so they have regular teleconferences IRC meetings or they meet in person Usually the groups have mailing lists for doing um, some Wordsmithing and working out how how things are going to work the groups collect requirements Both from within the member organizations as well as the web at large to make decisions about how Things are going to move forward um, often these groups will work On Reference implementations for a new technology. So being able to say hey, we know we have a proof of concept that that this would work And if you're not sure of best practices is on how to work Look at the code for this open source reference implementation Those groups answer questions that come from outside the organization And they are also really the main decision makers on these on these technologies so the Essential parts of the decisions are Made at this group level at a higher level The w3c and the member organizations can kind of vote up or vote down full Standards document, but at the fine level of you know per paragraph making decisions about the way the technology works That's really up to the groups groups are anywhere from You know a dozen people to a hundred people For the for the larger groups, but they tend to be pretty Pretty tight-knit in terms of who's participating in the groups Like I said before the group participants are either representatives of member organizations. So people from WMF for example Or invited experts occasionally there are academics or third parties who've shown Exceptional exceptional knowledge in an area and they'll be invited to join a group as an invited expert But typically it's representatives of member organizations And although there is a level of familiarity and knowledge that's important for a group participants Interest in the focus area is probably the most important one. I think that Having some motivation to work on the On the technology is probably the biggest part of what makes a good group participant So like I said, there are different kinds of groups at the w3c The most visible are so-called quote-unquote working groups These are groups that have been set up by the member organizations to produce a standards document They are going at the end of their process They're chartered for a particular amount of time at the end of that time. They need to have a document That defines a new web standard There are currently 32 working groups these groups kind of come and go based on when they get a new standard out Or when it comes back in I've already talked about some of the Better known standards that that have been around like css and html There are also some really interesting newer working groups that are working on web standards for things like Immersive web is for VR virtual reality augmented reality Web payments is for doing payments over the web, which is really interesting in a vendor independent way web authentication for using Different kinds of authentication mechanisms. They just published a really great system for doing Authentication with hardware keys so you can use various kind of hardware keys from the web web assembly web fonts And like I said 32 more of these kind of more Better known working groups these working groups kind of Can produce different kinds of documents typically as they're moving down this level of a you know draft documents to Candidate recommendations they become more formalized They need to have more levels of test suites and implementations before they can move to the next step by the time a document becomes a w3c recommendation It needs to have at least three independent implementations a full test suite. It has to be Voted on by the membership so the member organizations have to vote on it and say yes, we really do want to push this out So it is a pretty high bar to actually get through This life cycle of a of a document typically a single standard will take somewhere around one to two years To go from its first draft to a recommendation um Often technologies aren't Quite there yet, right? So with a bringing out a new version of css That's something where there are probably some minor changes that are that are being added sometimes there are new technologies that That are In the area of being explored currently for this kind of Interest area the w3c has a system called community groups This is where a group of people from the member organizations And the larger Community of people involved in the web can explore an important area before it's quite ready to have this formal standardization process So there are currently community groups Are a little bit easier to get started And there are 342 community groups at the w3c right now all kinds of interesting, you know processes There's a really good one for augmented reality kind of supporting that immersive web one for automotive web interfaces For conversational interfaces so chat based in interfaces using the web for agriculture Um, I'm involved in one called the social web incubator group That is involved with uh standards for social web Protocols, uh, the web ml community group is one that I think is really interesting. It's one that's doing Browser side machine learning so putting Machine learning resources on the browser end so that users are really in control of the ai that's um, that's Developing um around their behavior another really kind of cool system I think community groups are a lot easier to get involved with and they also happen to be doing, you know, some of the coolest stuff in the web One last kind of group Which is you know, sometimes called interest group. I call them horizontal groups. They there's this process called horizontal review They are really involved with improving all the standards that come out in a particular way So, uh, what will happen is that there will be people who have expertise in a certain aspect of technology That's not on a particular thing like css or html, but instead is something like Accessibility internationalization security privacy um participation of underrepresented groups um having, uh a positive work environment These are groups that as documents move through that Process that I was talking about before They'll get review by these kind of horizontal groups that say, okay, you know, you've done a really good On the wire protocol definition, but how well does it support? Right to left scripts or how well does it support people with? With poor I say, um, how well does it protect the privacy of? and users and so these horizontal groups can be really great ways for folks to advocate for a certain aspect of web technologies across all different Standards that the organization is is doing so Within the wiki media foundation You know, it's possible for anyone to join the join one of these groups And that's really the main way to get involved if you have knowledge of or interest in an area of web technology It joining one of these groups can be a great way to kind of develop that Typically, you're looking at about one hour per month up to about eight hours per month of involvement And uh, you know anyone who is um who has a wiki media dot org Um Email address is welcome to to join We're just trying to figure out if folks outside the organization that are closely involved Should be representing us there hasn't come up yet, but it's something we're definitely aware of In order to join a group, uh, you have to sign up for w3c account. Uh, that's on the w3.org website You have to sign up with your wiki media dot org email address and that'll automatically connect you to the wmf organization The um You should Have a group in mind that you're interested in and they're listed out on the uh on the website You ask become a member just by clicking on a link on the uh on the group page There's a quick confirmation process On my side where I make sure as the ac member I make sure that yes, you really are with the wiki media foundation Yes, you understand the responsibilities and that's it. You're in Um, again, if you don't have a wiki media dot org email address, but you think that you should be right Representing the wmf at one of these uh groups Let's talk And we'll see what what what happens there Um, I talked a little bit before about uh, what these groups do but the responsibilities of being a member You know at the very least lowest level of involvement. Um, you have to be on the mailing list Um, it's kind of recommended that you attend the meetings. Um Typically there are meetings say once a month or once every two weeks or once a week Um often on irc or by telephone. There are occasionally in-person meetings. Um, there are big group meetings On an annual basis. Um, but there are also say per group meetings Sometimes happen quarterly or by or or by yearly So that's that's something that that you can do Getting involved with reviewing drafts voting on proposals kind of getting knowledgeable about the work of the of the group Most of the groups do most of their work on github So, you know tracking issues through github making pull requests to actually update documents There is also a software development aspect to a lot of this work So not only producing document but creating tests and test suites And even doing implementations, whether it's an open source implementation That's part of the group or implementing the standards is part of the wick media foundation stack At the very highest level of involvement Each of these doctors each of these doctors each of these documents has an assigned editor who's responsible for the document And uh, so that is a very high level of involvement The it's uh, some of these in-person meetings the in-person meetings are hosted by members organizations. So if you want to Take a shot at hosting a meeting for one of the For a group you're in that's a possibility Um, and then finally chairing the group Means that you take responsibility for getting the documents from beginning to end or ranging meetings handling all the membership processes It's a pretty big responsibility But it can really mean the difference between A grouping successful and one that doesn't quite deliver On a note about obligations as a member Of one of these groups as a representative for the wick media foundation There is a code of conduct people are expected to behave professionally as an international organization The w3c's code of conduct is very Aware of organizational and national cultural differences in the way that people conduct business Which I think that we also are at the wmf, but at the same time, you know Expecting That we will be productive members of this of these groups Almost all the work that w3c groups do is released either under a w3c software license, which is a permissive License very similar to like the mit license or vst license All the contents produced under the same license as a documentation license. So again very permissive We have to disclose any patents that we have on any of the technology that comes out And which I think is less of a big deal for the wmf than it is for IBM or Disney, but it's still something that we have to do I think also that anyone who's in these groups should probably remember that You know that you're there to advance our projects in our community Or at least make the web a better place Um, so I've really talked about how Participating in the w3c can be a big part of how the wmf makes the web a better place. Obviously, it's a very It's a big web. There are different kinds of relationships that we can develop The w3c is not the only standards group that's involved That's around for technology and you know, we can always be members of more standards groups Seems like w3c is very focused on Our participation in open source projects is another place where our relationships Can help to develop the web And we also have bilateral relationships with platform providers and other web Web participants, but I think that the w3c is a big place for us to Have an impact on how the web goes forward So I'm going to stop here And we're going to move Now um, and I'm going to hand things over to uh gill But I want to take a second before we do that and ask I haven't actually been collecting questions, so I'm going to Pause for a second and see if we have any questions on what I've discussed so far And I might need to look in the This is this is sarah, um, I'm I'm looking at the irc chat And we also have to give a little bit of a lag for the live stream because folks will Get that just a like a moment after us, so No problem, and I'm also okay if we save our, uh Save our, um Questions till the end so if we don't have any anything that's ready right now I'd like to Hand it. Whoops. I'm going to bring up Slides again and We'll hand it over to gill to talk about His experience representing the wmf At uh at the w3c Let me see if I can get this live Hi so before the foundation joined A couple of months ago I was invited as invited expert to the wet performance working group at the w3c last summer So almost a year ago And the one let's talk about that experience so what it's like to present The foundation there So I have to say that I started Participating remotely and then I got to meet everyone at t-pack, which is the Big all hands meetings where all the working groups and community groups meet once a year And I got to meet the people I was working with face-to-face and like Evan mentioned A lot of groups have face-to-face meetings throughout the year on their own like in the mad money And so I think in terms of participation for anyone's interested Um, I I did feel a big difference before and after meeting people face-to-face um, there is a lot of trust involved and the You know, I could see the effect of me Bringing things up on the mailing list before and not getting a lot of response Then after meeting people people were paying more attention to what I was saying And uh, I got to create real working relationships with them um So something that's very that was very uh positive for me in terms of experience was how much browser vendors are eager to hear Our opinion about things what we care about what works for us what doesn't work for us because The issue at least in the working group that I'm involved in is that for the most part it's browser vendors discussing Standards between each other because they're the ones that are ultimately going to implement them and to Understand the needs of their users as in people who Web developers who use their standards They usually ask around and they're ordinary organizations. And so google will hear about google maps They will they will hear from gmail and microsoft will hear from bing and those are very Specific websites that are don't have the same needs as as the our projects do at all and so You know when I showed up and they're they're very very curious to hear Um, you know and those standards what was working for us or it wasn't like they care a lot about making things work for the web and the fact that We can be just sites are a very different kind of website than than what they usually deal with is very interesting for them. And so they're uh Very very much interested in what we have to say It was also very pleasantly surprised by how much influence I was able to Have very quickly like in the very first meetings I attended I was already, you know swaying Priorities or decisions about standards that were being worked on um, also You know giving them very precise feedback about Some ipis that were being developed Uh, meant that they were adjusted to meet our needs when in the in the past, you know dealt with a lot of Um browser standards and like Evan said like sometimes it doesn't quite do what we want Like it almost does what we want but not quite and I realized by being there that I can actually make it Do what we want, uh, you know when it's being created Which is exactly what we're hoping for and it says it has already happened for Several standards that are in the works and also, um as part of this, uh, so chrome like google tends to be um The organization that implements things first, uh for a lot of standards at least in the performance realm and one way that I got involved was to Do what they call chrome origin trial. So as they are trying new experimental Standards before like they're getting drafted and presented to the group They sometimes implement them in chrome and you can try them out Using this system and essentially it allows me to give very very early feedback On some of the ideas that are being developed for standards for new standards In that working group and this has been very, uh, very effective Have been getting, you know, very quick turn around feedback from the folks at google that are presenting new standards And influencing the shape it is taking so overall I have to say has been a very very positive experience and Basically that have been waiting for people like us to show up like for the most part most of the discussions Are between browser vendors And not many like like we've seen that a lot of there's a lot of publishers We're also members of the organization, but they're not necessarily Expanding actively in those discussions and the fact that I am there and I'm representing a user and a large one at that Makes the people in the group listen to me a lot because You know the facebook's of the world, uh, you know and those other big organizations don't necessarily speak up about A lot of the standards are being developed. So the fact like we're kind of feeling the void if you will Like like they're they're waiting to hear from actual users and the fact that we are there and talking Makes a big difference and we can get our opinion heard, which is probably going to be quite different from all of the commercial vendors that are Uh, commercial properties that are represented, um in assertion So yeah, that's my experience and I highly recommend that Anyone who cares about the movement Steps up and drawings working groups to Represents our needs and wants Thank you. So I guess we can get back to questions now. Awesome. That's that sounds good. Thank you so much, um are So i'm looking at the irc channel, I'm gonna start Looking through the questions that have come up And i'll start off with uh, subhu Who asks, um Are their community groups You think w3 is w3 wmf staff should definitely be joining That is a That is a really good, uh really good question. Um, there are some groups that I think are really interesting for us Um, and um, I think at least All right, cool. Um, so I think we have some participation already on some of the ones that are most important. So, uh, the one, uh, Geel's involved in is the web performance Working group and this is a working groups that is specifically about tools and techniques for getting great performance out of, uh, web systems, right? So it's it's making changes to the, um, Measurement and the tools for, um, getting a web performance, you know, up to the top and since that's such an important part of publishing Uh for our project. That's one that I really am glad that we have some Uh presence on there is a brand new Um There's a brand new group, uh, that is involved with publishing media So, um, for those folks who are who have, you know, worked with things like audio and video Tags and html different styles and and types of File formats for video. This is a A new Group that's going to be kind of building from the bottom up That same process, um, I would love to see especially as we are looking to develop more rich content in our projects I know that in the past problems with patent encumbered formats or performance of some of the different mechanisms control Of the of the mechanisms for delivering media has inhibited our ability to use the web for Delivering media. So I think the new media group would be one that would be A huge help for a wmf staff In terms of I talked a little bit about some of the horizontal groups our Experience again with internationalization and languages is probably second to none on the web in terms of the scope of languages that we that we deliver That we have projects for and so I think that Getting involved with internationalization and supporting Internationalization and new standards as well as existing standards would be really helpful to that organization And especially helpful for our projects that maybe are having problems with representation on the web for underrepresented languages So those are a few that are that are I think the most Most interesting. However, like I said, there's like 340 Community groups. There's another 32 Working groups that are working right now on new Standards And I think that those are pretty cool ones too. Oh, I talked to I talked a little bit about the immersive web one the vr ar one I think that we probably have a part to play at in that world Um in terms of delivering more information so it's pretty It's pretty easy to find these groups and And joining them is pretty pretty straightforward too so chris asked if The performance group is a horizontal group And the answer is no it probably should be I think it's because historically the way the web performance group emerged was through Standardizing metric collection and that was the main focus Uh, but yes the same way that there's a security and privacy horizontal group that probably should be performance horizontal group to check that new Standards and new apis don't slow down browsers. It's actually a very good point. I'll bring it up on the next working group meeting and Subu was asking us to speak about the relationship between w3c and what below g So, uh, yes, there is So my understanding is that What wg became popular emerged out of frustration of the very strict process in the w3c and they've taken ownership of some stand-up standards that you might have thought would normally live in the w3c world and It is creating a little bit of friction, but A lot of those standards that are interconnected are in the process of being synchronized between both as in standards Made under the w3c are referencing What the wg standards and vice versa and they're trying to work together to make all that stuff Work well, so yes, I mean The web is a bigger ecosystem doesn't stop the w3c so of course You have to make it work and I also encourage People interested to also join those other organizations, you know, we don't have to stop the w3c There's a lot of other work being done in other areas of the web that we need to participate in So, you know, uh, check out what what wg is doing as well And maybe you're going to be finding things that are more relevant to you and other organization Yeah, I think it's a really it is an interesting relationship like the what what wg kind of forked off as a kind of faster moving process and What has happened is that a lot of that has been reintegrated into w3c and a lot of the what wg Frustration about slow moving process with w3c Again, this was like in the late 2000s Has largely been reflected in changes to the way the w3c works, right? And right now they do remain as two separate organizations but really kind of the what w wg is a feeder that is creating new technologies that are really becoming part of the html and css standards, so A lot of the same people are involved in both organizations And I don't think there's as much of a conflict as there was before during that kind of fork period um, and the other thing is that what wg does do a does does a um a lot of focus on uh html and css to some extent JavaScript apis But there is a lot more to what the w3c does right so w3c covers a lot of other Kinds of data structures and etc That that do exist on the web I wanted to ask you gill Do you have working groups that are or other groups that you think we should have More people participating in uh, I think definitely css international sorry internationalization svg, you know, we rely a lot on svg You know, it's it's been a pain point for us like the support of some svg features, etc and open source Stacks that we rely on so yeah, I mean I encourage anyone to to check out the list because there's a lot more and Happening at the wmf that i'm not aware of that probably makes some groups relevant um, yeah So we had a round of um once once we announced that we were joining the w3c Uh, we had a round of folks who uh folks who jumped in um, I think we're now at around 15 people From the w wmf who have uh Accounts on the w3c and our members of different groups um, I might need to It'll take me a second to pull it up But I remember off the top of my head that we do have someone on svg on internationalization on Uh on web performance uh on social standards So there has been a lot of activity already so far Um, and it definitely doesn't hurt to have more people get involved um, and especially for Uh for those things that that matter for us security privacy internationalization accessibility I want to go back and check and see if we have any other questions on irc I just checked the live stream and we don't have any questions there. Um, and I asked a while ago so, um So i'm not sure we're going to get questions on the live stream this morning That's not a problem um All right, great. Well, um, if if that's the case and we don't have any, um questions I think I think we're all set. Is there anything you'd like to say to kind of finish up gill? Please get involved young groups Thank you Awesome, and I just also wanted to say i'll i'll put a link to the tech talks both in the irc channel and on the live stream We'll post a link to this from that tech talks page as well And then any of the questions that folks answered today that were asked or answered today will be Added to that that too and then we'll And then anybody in the future if you are interested in doing A tech talk of your own Please reach out and thank you so much. We totally appreciate that you came and talked with us about this today All right, thanks a lot sarah. It was great being being involved