 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm your host Bart van der Zee and today is a very special episode all about the history of New Orleans jazz This episode was primarily recorded in July of 2019 when I was in New Orleans to see the Rolling Stones Which I'll explain in a minute. These are interviews that were done in person as opposed to what I usually do which is via the phone or Skype So it sounds a little different Like you're gonna hear from Stanton Moore great New Orleans jazz drummer who's in galactic and a clinician and educator We're also gonna hear from Walter Harris He's the drummer for the Preservation Hall jazz band and he's gonna teach us all about the Mardi Gras Indians and their Amazing culture and heritage and their impact on New Orleans jazz Also, we talked to Joe Lasty who is one of the other drummers at the Preservation Hall jazz band and is just a legend in the New Orleans scene you're also gonna hear from Greg Lambuzzi He's the director of the New Orleans jazz museum and we did a phone interview before any of this happened And I went to New Orleans But then I had the chance to go to the museum when I was there and check out the drumsville exhibit So you're gonna hear little bits of him throughout the episode, but then at the end I'm gonna include his description of what this exhibit is because for all of us drummers it is just amazing So stick around to the end and you'll hear a little bit more about that now to explain the Rolling Stones stuff that happened I'll take some time right now to tell you about it And if you want to go ahead and skip ahead like 10 or 15 minutes you can get right into the interview with Stanton Moore But I think this is a pretty cool story. So I'll go through it. I owe all of this First off to Don McCauley who is Charlie Watts drum tech. He made this experience possible and it was amazing So what happened was if you remember back if you've listened to the show for a while I had Brooks Tagler on who came on and described how Charlie Watts purchased Gene Krupa's lost drum collection that was found in a storage unit that had been locked up since 1973 when he passed away so Charlie Watts bought it and Then Don and Brooks basically I guess together Brooks reached out to me But they thought that coming on to the podcast would be a good way for people to hear about this collection and get the word out Which I'm honored that that happened. So We did the episode fast forward. I'm at the Chicago drum show in 2019 and Don is there with the Gene Krupa drums They're there the ones we talked about the collection that Charlie Watts owns and Don is basically, you know taking care of So I'm talking with Don and he basically says What about interviewing Charlie Watts and I said Holy crap, that would be unbelievable. I would love to do that. Is that even possible? And he said, yeah, there's a tour coming up. The stones are going on the road What about coming to and we looked at some places that aren't too far away from me and all this stuff We ended up landing on New Orleans and it was kind of like it. Yeah, we'll do it and I'm like Okay, this is unbelievable. So I text my wife who's pregnant and we just sort of there's not too much like locked in yet But it's like, okay, this might happen. So Fast forward we get closer Don says yes, let's do it I cannot confirm at all that you can talk to Charlie, which I'm like, that's fine. It doesn't matter Just to be there and go see the stones would be amazing. So Fast-forwarding a little bit Well, I don't want to skip this. There was basically a hurricane or supposed to be a hurricane in New Orleans that day Of the show. So they postponed it a day. I mean, it's I had plane tickets purchased They were canceling things hotels were closing the hurricane didn't even end up really happening but I was about to rent a car and drive 12 hours to get there with a pregnant wife was 35 weeks pregnant, which Isn't smart, but you know, come on throwing stones Backing up for a second a few days earlier. I think Greg from the New Orleans Jazz Museum I asked him. I said, hey, I'm gonna be there. Do you have Stanton Moore's number and I have at that point I have zero connection to Stanton Moore. I saw him at drum days in 2002 when I was 12 years old. So Like that's my only connection to him was seeing him then he said, yes, here's his number I texted him Stanton pretty much instantly responded and said, yeah, let's do it contact me when you're here And you can come to my house and interview me and I was like, that's unbelievable. You're Stanton Moore So that's set up. I wanted to get the most out of being there and talking with people. So yeah, so then We get to New Orleans, it's postponed today because the storm but we end up there We go to our hotel, which is basically connected to the Mercedes-Benz Superdome, which is where they're playing We check in Don says, hey, let's meet up and go to the Preservation Jazz Hall, which I had no idea what that it was at that point. We go there It's this just amazing jazz hall tons of history. We see people performing Which would be Joe Lasty who I mentioned before and you'll hear from in this episode I meet all these people sit there. Abby my wife Don and I are watching the show. It's great Then Don says, hey, we want to go in the back and actually do some interviews and talk with people and I'm like, oh my god Yes, that'd be awesome So Abby peels off. She's like, no, I'm pregnant. I'm gonna go back to the hotel and lay down So anyway, we're back there You're gonna hear in this. It's this isn't like we're set up in a quiet room There's some chatter and stuff which is it is what it is. We were there just doing it on the fly So I talked with Walter Harris the drummer. I talked with Joe Lasty. We have fun. We're hanging out Get the interviews. Everything's great. And then Don says and I'm just gonna tell you the whole story here Don says do you want to come to dinner with the Rolling Stones crew? basically the Tex and the stage crew and all that stuff and I'm like If you want me, I will come. I don't want to like step on your toes. So anyway, we go We hang out at this really cool restaurant We walk in but the cool thing is is we walk in and then Ronnie Wood from the Rolling Stones is at the table next to us Which I'm just like This is insane. I'm losing my mind But we have dinner. It's awesome. Everyone was great And also I need to mention that at dinner Don said, hey Why don't you invite Stanton Moore to come to the Rolling Stones show? and Have this experience and like go backstage and all that good stuff. So I was like, it's just insane for me who Is a relative nobody Compared to Stanton Moore and Charlie Watts to be able to do that and extend that invite via Don. So that was really cool He gave me that opportunity Which I texted Stanton and Stanton was like, yeah, I think I can make that work So he and his wife got to come with us, but we'll explain that more in a little bit We then I think have a beer and then I'm like, all right, I'm gonna leave you guys alone I don't want to be like a third wheel. So I peel off The next day I go to the New Orleans Jazz Museum and I meet with Greg who you're hearing in this episode And he shows me around the drumsville exhibit and the back room where they keep all their records And it's just really cool great people everyone in New Orleans was awesome So we do that it's awesome You'll hear more about the actual exhibit at the end of the episode like I said, but so then it's time to go to the concert So I go back to the hotel get my stuff together at all times throughout this entire weekend in my back pocket I had these two little Tascam recorders that are like lavalier mics that They have little SD cards in them so they record straight to Themselves so there's no extra crazy stuff because I wanted to be able to record an interview Charlie or any of these people at any point in time and Spoiler alert, I didn't get to interview Charlie I'll explain that later, but I don't want you to think there's some surprise at the end of this where We're like then Charlie Watts comes in you would know the episode will be called my interview with Charlie Watts, but It was still amazing. So anyway, we end up going to the concert We go around the back of the super dome and I meet with Don who's got wristbands for us and we got these VIP passes at This hotel and that was a whole different thing of just getting them and going into this room where they're like you know, there's pastries and tennis on TV and Rolling Stones tickets and a stack which was cool. But anyway, we are at the back of the super dome. We're meeting Don Stanton rolls in and Then we are entering the back of the super dome go through the metal detector and then boom We're like on stage you basically come in you walk like 20 feet and then you're on stage. So there's Charlie's drums There's Everyone's gear. There's like road cases that they said are just completely full of guitars like 50 guitars in each road case It was just nuts. So then Don is like, do you guys want to come up and see Charlie's drums? So Stanton and I get to go up and they're covered with a curtain So he lifts the curtain up and there they are There's his gretch kit with I believe a dw snare with the lips on it and the u-fib symbols and a speed king pedal and Keith moon stick bag and it's just like an old school throne Which is just kind of like indented, you know, like the old leather ones where you can tell someone sat on it for 50 years um So he's like, why don't you guys get some pictures there and just it was Unreal So we're hanging out on stage and just being there as long as humanly possible and touching his drums and stuff And then Don says, do you want to meet charlie? Of course. I was like, yes, let's go do it Um, so then abby my wife is like, all right. I'll stay here And again, she's super pregnant and Don is like, no, you're coming with um The key thing I learned is that everyone loves a pregnant lady It just makes everyone happy. Um, and they kind of like took care of her and were like, you can sit here And uh, Don the whole time was just like, do you want to sit down? Do you want to sit? Can I help you? Can I get you a water? It was awesome. Very very very nice So then we get basically taken around the back of the super dome There's a room that almost has like road signs that are, um Like named where for each person's uh dressing room. So Uh, I remember charlies was the cotton club, which is a classic jazz club Keith Richards was camp x-ray so Don takes stanton back first to meet Charlie because charlie knows who stanton is because they were just at the jazz museum and there's a video that features stanton and he probably just knows of him as a drummer, but uh Don knew that that's he had just seen his stuff and was given a pair of stanton more sticks. So, um, yeah So they go back. I'm hanging out. I'm talking with this lady at the door and we're talking and we're talking and then the door opens and then mc jagger walks out and it was just like He just had this like aura about him, but Uh, he's mc jagger He just kind of walks right by us and then he gets on a golf cart and just buzzes away in the super dome Which was like pretty surreal Then the door closes and and I can see like Keith Richards in there and I'm like peeking my head as it closes like Hello, can I come in? So they're meeting and hanging out and then don comes out and says all right. Why don't you guys come back and meet charlie? So we come through the door down the hall take a right into a dressing room And it is just like nothing I expected it is There's candles. There's big comfy chairs and couches Charlie's standing there ready to greet us He's got jazz books about new orleans on the table. He's got a Like a towel over the table that says the cotton club, which I believe I'm kind of assuming but I would assume that Each dressing room is set up with Historical jazz stuff for the city that he's in so if he's in Chicago it would be chicago jazz books if he's in new york It would be new york jazz books. That's just kind of what i'm gathering We talk with him. He is just a great guy We talk about brooks teggler who is the one who verified that the reason all this happened that that gene krupa drum set And gear is actually real. We talked about his collection He's got he's got a massive collection like warehouse full of like sunny panes drums From the smithsonian in crates. I think I heard he has like napoleon sword. He's got everything So we're talking we're hanging out. It was probably like 15 minutes in total. There was absolutely no It would have been weird if I said let's do the interview. Can I put a microphone on you? It didn't It was it was it didn't happen and it was perfectly fine that way Um, I talked to him about drum history, which was awesome. Give him a card do all this We get pictures stanton gets pictures. They're talking about stuff Um, and then we're walking out the door saying great. Thank you. Um, Again abbey my wife pregnant. He offers her a seat. She's sitting there. It's just really nice very nice person We're walking out the door And then charlie says to who I don't know it is he says don't aren't you going to introduce my friends To the rest of the band So we're in the hall and there's ron wood and bernard fowler who is the longtime backup singer for the stones So I'm just like hey, it's nice to meet you guys. We were just talking about uh this and I kind of I gave Um bernard a drum history card and then ron wood was like well, I like drums too. Can I have one? I was just like this is insane. So then ronnie wood got a card and we talked about some stuff and then we get uh taken out and we go back up top and um Go up to the vip area, which again was just amazing. Um Free beer king-size candy bars, uh, which I'm really cheap so that was my takeaway is I can take some candy bars for like the airplane, but um Then we go and we hang out the show starts Don hooked it up. So we were up in the pit right in the front On keith richard's side. So we're off to the side there Just enjoying the show the stones were unbelievable. Um, they played great There was a barrier that had seats so abby could actually sit down for a lot of it because Your feet start to hurt when you're that pregnant. Um It was great stones killed it. We wrapped up end of the show Um went back to the hotel and then we were gone the next day and now because we had the baby six months later Ish i'm releasing this episode uh on marty grau. So that's pretty much it. It was a Unbelievable experience that I owe completely to don mccawley with a huge. Thank you to brooks teggler for getting me in touch um And it just goes to show that you never know who's gonna check out what you're doing and what what crazy things might happen Like I never thought I'd be hanging out with stanton moore. Um, so on that note Let's start the episode and jump in to my conversation with the great stanton moore at his practice space Bear with me on the sound quality because I had not really used these recorders that much so it gets a little funky at times But uh, but yeah, enjoy the episode Just about everything can be traced back to Some routes that come from new orleans. Absolutely one of the things that I say a lot is you know, whether you like funk or country or western yep, or polka or norwegian death metal Yeah, all of those things have a backbeat Even if norwegian death metal the backbeat is super fast. Yeah It still is coming from a backbeat and that backbeat can be traced back to having roots in new orleans and What I love to do is, you know, what what we'll call musical archaeology where You start digging deeper and trying to figure out where did this come from and so for me Tracing the backbeat back you know, I really personally feel like It's got roots in Some of the the marches The european marches the civil war marches with the with the five stroke roll Up You start buzzing that And if you're playing the buzz with just the left hand and you're tapping quarter notes with the right That that that that that that buzzer buzz, buzz. Yeah buzz up buzz. Uh, buzz up buzz up Well that buzz Bis-zap, bis-zap, bis-zap. Dag-a-doom, gag-a-doom, gag-a-doom. Ge-da-good, Josephine. Dag-a-doom, where do you do? Sak-a-doom, bak-a-doom, gag-a-doom. Da-ta-doom, da-ta-tit-tut. Da-ta-tit, da-ta-tit, da-ta-tit. You start straightening out, and, you know, Ringo Starr and Charlie Watt started straightening things out that they were hearing played by Earl Palmer. And Earl Palmer was taking things that he was hearing played in a jazz context and then started slamming that backbeat throughout the whole tune. Whereas that backbeat might have only been played for the shout courses and the endings of tunes. And then you've got Earl Palmer playing that backbeat throughout the whole tune. And then you get guys like Ringo and Charlie straightening that out. I mean, that's the whole basis of rock and roll. You know, keep in mind when you've got Chuck Berry and even some of the early Elvis stuff. And you know, but Chuck Berry, little Richard, you know, Fats Domino, all that stuff was still based in a swing pulse. And then with Elvis stuff was still swung with the early Elvis stuff. And things start to really straighten out when you get to the Beatles. And the Stones and things like that. And those guys start straightening these things out. And that's when rock and roll really starts to sound more like what we have today. I mean, you still have guys like Lenny Kravitz and the Roots replicating things that the Stones and the Beatles were doing in the 60s. You know, and before that stuff, stuff was based in a swing pulse. So once those guys started straightening things out, then you really have what a lot of rock and roll sounds like today, still to this day. So backing up, it all started here. Basically that kind of swing, that kind of, it all evolved and it wasn't overnight, obviously. Right, and you know, some people will make an argument that some of it started in Mississippi and parts of other parts of the Mississippi Delta. Sure. And that is true, you know, I mean, like you said, it didn't happen overnight and it didn't happen all in one house, one building or one night. Yeah, but you know, most history all points as New Orleans being one of the most integral parts of it. I mean, nobody can claim full credit. I mean, keep in mind cats were up and down the river. I mean, I will say this, I believe that, you know, predominantly Western music comes from the Mississippi River, you know, and of course you've got Memphis and Coastale, you know, all these other places that things did develop to, but, you know, it's all coming together down here in the South, up and down the Mississippi River, you know. So New Orleans though was like such a hub of, people wanted to come here because it's a cool happening city, right? So then they would bring their styles together and they would blend when they're playing together. Oh yeah, well, I mean, you know, as we talk about musical and also historical archeology, you know, a friend of mine, Ned Sablette, wrote this book called The World That Made New Orleans and it's a very in-depth detailed account of what makes New Orleans the melting pot that it is. So some of the ordinances that got passed, some of the historical events that happened that made it so, well, this is why this happened this way. This is why you have French people moving here during that time and then them, you know, mingling with African people and these are the different cultures and these are the different customs that actually did merge to create this thing that we all know as this now. You know, this is why this street is named the street. This is why this Paris is named this Paris. This is, you know, Uptown, New Orleans was a town called Lafayette and that's why you've got Bourbon Street, you know, Royal Street becomes St. Charles when you get across Canal Street. There were two different towns. Uptown was Lafayette. A different Lafayette than the Lafayette that we know that's two and a half hours wet but it was a different town and then they both grew into each other and that's why you've got, you know, streets that have different names up until Canal Street so that book, anybody who is interested in any of this, you know, especially you, you seem very interested in this stuff, it was very interesting to me to read all of this and learn some of the historical actualities that contributed to what happened in music and culture. The convergences of European and African culture, we all know that that created this musical melting pot that made the music of New Orleans, you know, it's been said a million times, it's almost cliche now but this musical gumbo, you know, you know, with Galactic we have a rule that we won't say that in any interview, you know, and it is a fitting term but it's now become slightly overused but that book in particular that I just talked about, Ned Sablette, the world that made New Orleans. Got it, meaning that it's just this people all over the world and maybe, because I mean, there's people, some people from around the world who might be listening to this who just don't know exactly what we're talking about so can you explain a little bit about how the French, how that kind of happened? I mean, we don't need the whole world history but so then, yeah, what was that? Well, New Orleans was not just an integral part of the port city in the United States but New Orleans was an integral port city for the world, the Caribbean, the Europe. So, you know, the first time I went to Sevilla, Spain, you know, the river there, a lot of goods are coming from Europe, coming to the river there and then coming through the port of Sevilla. Well, then once it leaves the port of Sevilla, which is a port that's servicing much of Europe, guess where it goes? It comes across the ocean to Cuba and then into New Orleans. So, you've got a direct line between Sevilla and New Orleans are the two ports that connect Europe to the United States. So then you've got all this European culture and goods and people coming over and they're coming straight from Europe to New Orleans, sometimes passing through Cuba a lot. Yeah, and getting that culture. And getting that culture and then coming to New Orleans and then through the horrible practices of slavery, you've got all this forced migration of African people coming over from different parts of Africa, a lot of West Africa and coming over and then coming to where? New Orleans, you know? Coming to some of the other ports along the Eastern Seaboard too, but a lot of this is coming from Africa to New Orleans, sometimes passing through Cuba too, but this is all African culture winding up eventually in New Orleans, European culture winding up in New Orleans, and that's French, Spanish, all these different European cultures and they're winding up in New Orleans and they're mingling with African culture because New Orleans was the only place to allow African slaves to practice their culture. Really? Their religion, dance and song, their culture was allowed to be practiced in Congo Square on Sundays up until about the time of the Civil War and this was practiced in Congo Square and on Sundays, much to the chagrin of the Catholics but the thinking while New Orleans was under Spanish rule, Spanish governing forces felt that it would promote harmony within the ranks of the slaves if they were allowed to practice their own culture that they were accustomed to from Africa. Got it. So they said, well, why don't we let them practice their culture and have a market where they could sell things that they have been working on and making in their free time while on the different plantations. Sure. So these African people were allowed to come into Congo Square, bring their goods, sell their goods, dance, play music and sing and practice their religion which a lot of times their religion, they would have to also mask that religion and they would take some of their deities and give them Catholic saint names and that became some of the Santaria and it also became some of the Voodoo that we see and this is all Cliff Notes versions. Obviously, they can go a lot deeper. I don't really consider myself a historian on this stuff. I've read stuff to educate myself on this but guys like Ned Sablet can sit here and rattle off ordinances that happened that led to this and Ned is just so brilliant in both his writings and in person. So anybody who is interested in these things, I would suggest further reading with some of Ned's books and then there's tons of other stuff. I'm sure that I'll create a list that we can reference that we can put in links underneath the podcast that people can check out for further reading if you're interested in these things but in general, you have all this convergence of European and African culture and it wasn't just African general. I mean, it was very specific from different parts of Angola and the Congo and Western parts of Africa and certain customs, certain rhythms, certain specific things from certain specific areas turned into certain specific things in New Orleans and that's all the things that made New Orleans so unique and made it so special to this day. It was the only place in the United States that allowed African people to practice their culture. So you've got in New Orleans, you've got African culture being kept alive and being allowed to kind of integrate with European culture and these things start creating, I mean, you take European marches, right, which are very straight up and down and then you start having African rhythms start to kind of mix with some of this stuff and you get from ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba well then you start getting a two, three clave that's coming with roots from Africa, developing in Cuba so a two, three clave would be ka-ka-ka-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba-ba but in New Orleans, as we all know, we're below sea level so things start to round out a little bit because things are hot, muggy and, you know, you just kind of things start to become a little bit more relaxed Yeah, the rhythm that is in New Orleans starts to become it becomes rounded out so you get Boom, you get that mixing with European instruments, which let's keep in mind, trumpets, trombones, clarinets, saxophones. The brass band. Yeah, bass drum, snare drum. Those are all European instruments. But then you start getting some of the African rhythms that start to migrate and influence, you know, start to blend with and influence some of the European rhythms. Well, then that's when you start to get the birth of, you know, this whole second line tradition, which of course second line is coming from the funeral processions and the notion that the, you know, you talk to different people and you hear different accounts, but the basically the hearse and the family are the first line and then the band and the people celebrating the life of that person. Yeah. That's the second line. Got it. And that seems... Of the funeral procession. Like the afterlife and with the culture here, I'm sure that's extremely important and the music was a big part of that. Right? One million percent, yeah. Okay. And so in New Orleans, we celebrate someone's passing in, we celebrate their life and we celebrate hopefully the notion that they're going up to a better place. And, you know, this is also coming from a very African tradition. Sure. You know, whole funeral procession and funeral celebration has roots in, in African history and culture as well. So, you know, here in New Orleans, that's what you have going on is people parading in the streets, playing European instruments and the rhythms are influenced by African rhythms and then, but you're still playing on European instruments, but then you also start getting gospel hymns and melodies that are coming out of some of the gospel churches, right? So, you get those songs being, you know, gospel songs and hymns being played on European instruments with African rhythms. Yeah, and that's what kids are growing up, younger people are growing up hearing that. So it's in their psyche to have those rhythms and stuff so then it becomes a part of who you are, right? I mean, you grow up around it and you don't even know that, you know, you go to other places, you know, I talk about this with people all the time, like, you know, you grow up in New Orleans, you start traveling the world, you're like, wait a minute, that's not a graveyard. Where are all the graves? Yeah, yeah. You're like, oh no, everywhere else in the world, they actually put people in the ground, here in New Orleans. Yeah. You gotta put everybody above ground. Yeah. You start realizing how different New Orleans is and you're like, wait, this isn't a funeral, where's the band? Yeah, it's not a party, but it is, it's a celebration of life. Yeah, and it is respectful and it is meant to honor that person and their life. And, you know, you don't wanna say it's a party and make it sound like they're celebrating the fact that the person is gone, they're celebrating their life and they're celebrating the notion that the person is going on to a better place. And that culturally is where a lot of people would hear music because in this, what timeframe are we looking at right now with this? Like, are we talking early 1900s, 1800s, you think? Oh, definitely. I mean, that's a good question. When did it start? By the late 1800s, definitely, it was a practice that was very common. And you had the social aid and pleasure clubs that would, you know, back then they weren't social aid and pleasure clubs yet. They were benevolent societies. So, you know, a lot of African people of African descent couldn't get life insurance, couldn't afford a funeral at the end of their life. So they would pay into these benevolent societies and then at the end of their life, the benevolent society would hide the band and would help with the funeral costs. And then that eventually developed into social aid and pleasure clubs. And that's why you've got, you know, during the year on Sundays, you've got second lines that happen and each social aid and pleasure club, they'll throw a second line to celebrate their organization. And it's not necessarily because somebody passed, they just have a second line. So you'll have, you know, all these different social aid and pleasure clubs doing, you know, second lines on Sundays. Yeah, what is a social aid and pleasure club? Like, what does that mean? It's coming from, you know, the benevolent societies which started off as a formal kind of a community service that you would buy into that would, if you needed help, say you're house flooded and you needed help, or you're house flooded. Yeah, but as an African American back then, you couldn't get life insurance. You couldn't get insurance. So they would create these benevolent societies for themselves so that if you needed help, so you would pay your dues and then you would pay into this society and then when it came time for your funeral, they would help cover those costs. If you needed help, your house burned down or you fell in hard times or your house flooded, they would help with things like that. And then eventually became social aid and pleasure clubs and you pay dues into the social aid and pleasure club and then as part of a member, every, at least once a year, they throw a second line. They throw a party in the street and they hire bands. Cool. And then along the route, people grill and people are hanging and dancing in the streets and they parade from one place to another and along the route, you'll have people stationed, you know, cooking up all kinds of different, great stuff to eat. And it's a great time. It's a party in the street. That's awesome. My question then is at this time, we got the European instruments, we've got the bass drum, we've got the snare. They're not together yet. The formal drum set hasn't been put together where someone's, they're playing separate things. Cool. We got a kick drum. Double drumming hasn't existed yet where double drumming refers to, as you know, bass drum and snare together. And I've heard that it started really early on. I'm sure there's other places, but in New Orleans where the guy gets the marching bass drum, maybe he doesn't even have a pedal for it yet because it hasn't been invented. Correct. He takes a snare drum, puts it on a chair, right? So the things are changing, early 1900s. Now let's jump over to Greg Lambuzzi of the New Orleans Jazz Museum. For no other reason, think of the economy of having one person playing these drums versus a bass drum player, somebody playing the cymbals, a snare, et cetera. So D.D. Chandler is credited with being the first in New Orleans to adapt a drum pedal to his bass drum and add other drums around it, the snare, et cetera. And this bass drum pedal was mounted from the top. And... Yeah, those are like the overhang kind of pedal, right? Which is like a real... Kind of a unique, it's interesting to see stuff like that and then where you end up and you think, oh, duh, why don't you just put it on the ground? But you take that for granted, knowing that how a bass drum pedal would work or even having a pedal to begin with and putting the... Because the bass drum, it didn't have feet on it. It was just sitting there. It was an old marching bass drum. That's right, that's right. And you must have been a certain finesse to play, just like any bass drum pedal. Think of it, like if you have an old one that you played with, you might have to finesse it in a certain way. I'm sure these overhangs, it took a little while to get used to getting some good sounds out. I'm sure it was definitely possible. Can you explain a little bit? We haven't really talked about that particular pedal on the show. Now, do you know more details about it? Yeah, so we have one in the exhibit. It was the one that Papa Jack Lane, who was... He had a number of brass bands going at once in the 1880s, all the way up to the 20s. But he created his own pedal and his own kit, too. But this one, so it clamps to one side of the drum, basically the front, the front rim, if I remember right, of the front drum head comes back and then it clamps onto the back rim and then it's a spring mechanism, a spring and then it connects to another mechanism, goes over to the batter head side and then the pedal kind of hangs and then there's another piece that sits on the floor so the pedal is pulling back on that spring. 1909 is the year that Ludwig manufactured and mass produced a bass drum pedal that was actually a workable pedal that they actually marketed. And that is really when the drum set started to take off and people started buying that pedal and putting it on the drums and then adding Chinese tom-toms and adding Chinese cymbals and all these things. Temple blocks, yeah. Most historians are on the same page that Dee Dee Channel was the first guy to start applying a pedal to the bass drum and playing the bass drum and snare drum as a set in warrants, yeah. Cool, cool. Okay, that's awesome. And then from there, it just sort of blows up and this is, it's cool, like these were marching bass drums. There's no, there's no feet on them. They're just, you're just setting it up. Correct, correct. And then people started making clip-on spurs to the bass drum from sliding, moving forward. And I've heard Liddy invented the snare stand. I think that's probably debatable too but they mass produced the snare stand which is just out of necessity. Yeah, and that was really part of what helped move the drum set along too. Coming up with a snare stand that was short enough that you could sit down and play, right? Cause I mean, I would imagine there were snare stands for classical snare drum in orchestras. I didn't think about that. But to come up with a snare stand that went low enough to sit down and play. So you get that short snare drum stand and the bass drum pedal together and then you really start to have what becomes the beginning of the drum set. Yeah, exactly. Which in New Orleans. And one thing I've seen with watching the guys at Preservation Hall yesterday is that there's this kind of like, you have a hi-hat, a ride. And but early on, they'd obviously have, they wouldn't have rides. They'd have like the little China and stuff but it's this kind of accents and little like tits tits tits. And wood blocks. Wood blocks. And ratchets. Yep. And cowbells. Yep. Yeah. It's a lot of fun. Oh yeah. You know? Yeah, of course. I mean, playing the drums is like the greatest thing ever. Agreed. Yeah. Cool. So then going through the 1900s, just in the history of New Orleans drumming. I mean, so it just keeps evolving then basically. And we go through. There's the Mardi Gras Indians that are a part of the history of all this. Yeah. Yeah. Now let's learn more about the Mardi Gras Indians from Walter Harris at Preservation Jazz Hall. Yeah, the Mardi Gras Indian culture basically is a culture of African Americans that preserved a tradition that they had gathered from their ancestors that were runaway slaves that ran and migrated with natives. Native Americans. Native Americans. Yeah. They migrated with native. And all of them was kind of in the same boat of kind of trying to dodge the Europeans. You know, they was in, they was pretty much kind of dodging the Europeans. So they kind of banded together. And he learned a lot of the culture and tradition of the natives. So a lot of these African Americans migrated to New Orleans and I'm sure that it was the Homer Indians that they had learned a lot of these traditions and cultures from. This is what I'm gathering because that's like the closest tribe we have here. Yeah, yeah. Coming through. It would have been a seminar that was coming through Florida. But learning these traditions and cultures from these natives, they all learned how to beat, how to sequence and how to build this Indian regalia. Yeah. And they also did a lot of celebrating, a lot of dancing, a lot of drumming, and a lot of dancing to, to pay homage to the natives. Once the African, once the Africans got ahold of it, it became something else. Yeah. And they migrated their bamboo to it. So it became more of a Yeah, that's cool. Yeah, more than a Yeah, yeah, yeah. More like a labyrinth. You know, the syncopated. Yeah, in times of people doing different stuff. Yeah, and then they kind of syncopated, you know. Yeah. Pay homage to the natives. They adopted this culture and tradition called the Mardi Gras Indians. Now the way it became the Mardi Gras Indians is that Mardi Gras itself was a celebration that was not inclusive of the African Americans. Really? Okay. It was a European celebration. And for all of the wealthy Europeans and the, you know, not so wealthy Europeans. The wealthy Europeans would be the ones actually parading. And the unwealthy Europeans would actually be the ones patronizing the parade. Would be the ones, you know, patronizing the parade, going to the parade. The African Americans would be the ones that would be laboring the parade. They would be the ones walking the horses. They would be the ones cleaning the horseshit. And they would be the ones lightin' the street for the Europeans to have fun. So when it came to Mardi Gras day, things start to change. And I think it was right around the time when Geronimo had defeated Custod and the African Americans decided that they were going to have their own parade. They used their culture, their new culture and tradition as Indians to flaunt and pretty much aggravate the hell out of the Europeans. Yeah, like we're doing fine. We're having fun. We're having fun. And also, we're representing a culture that straight demolished y'all, basically. So it really was done out of arrogance and out of done for, you know, like to be a part of the Mardi Gras. But it actually became a Mardi Gras for the African Americans. So then from different neighborhoods, you would have these guys representing neighborhoods massing as Indians, but using the culture as an art form. And that's where the colorful clothing comes from, which is just unbelievable. I mean, it is so cool. Yes, but it comes from, you know, African Americans building their own Mardi Gras. On Mardi Gras day, had nothing to do with the traditional Mardi Gras, which was Rex and Bacchus and all of these big Mardi Gras crews, which were wealthy Europeans that flaunted their money and from what I understand, they threw on the floats back then, they were throwing the things that they didn't want anymore, which other people found valuable. And it turned into, so it wasn't like the traditional, like obviously now people throw beads. Right, but that's symbolic of that. That's symbolic of that. Oh, I gotcha. Wow, cool. Exactly. So it's a lot of really great trinkets and things that meant something to them but they were throwing them to the spectator like peasants pretty much. Yeah. Pretty much like giving back to the, you know, to the needy, so to say. Yeah. And then that's where the Mardi Gras Indians derive from. I mean, it's the thing that influences me the most. I mean, when I sit down at the drums, the whole reason I've got a pondero on my left and a cowbell on my left and all this other stuff is I'm trying to approximate Mardi Gras Indian percussion going on with the funk stuff that I'm doing. Yeah. So I'm trying to sound like, you know, two or more cats playing together. But instead of playing percussion, that sounds like Afro-Cuban, Kongras and Tambales, I'm trying to sound like Mardi Gras Indian cowbells and tambourines and floor toms mixed in with what I'm doing. That's really what I'm trying to do. So I owe a lot to the Mardi Gras Indian rhythms, music and culture. I'm really trying to draw from that as much as I possibly can. It seems like that everything you hear from New Orleans has that kind of like a group of drummers walking down the street, you know, all these sounds, cowbells, tambourines, everything put into one person and then you throw some trombones and some stuff over it. And that's the New Orleans sound. So they obviously influenced the whole world. Oh, everybody. I mean, the Mardi Gras Indian stuff influences everybody from New Orleans. But for me personally, I've tried to take things like stickings and the approach of David Garibaldi where he's taking his stickings and he's adding texture to these stickings by, you know, adding in Swiss triplets and all. I mean, it's a concept that I talk about all the time. Poor David Garibaldi is probably sick of hearing me talk about, you know, Garibaldizing stuff. But that's what I talk about. It's like, okay, you've got the sticking. That's cool. But now let's add texture to it. And then when you start splitting up that textured sticking, and it's textured now because you've added flams and Swiss triplets to it, and then I start splitting it up to instruments that I've, you know, borrowed from Mardi Gras Indian music and culture. So, you know, that's why I have, like I said, that's why we have the ponderos, tune the low, mic from underneath so it'll sound like a mix between a tambourine and a bass drum. Yeah. And then I split that stuff up between that and a cowbell and different other things. Sure. And sometimes really weird sounding Pete Engelhardt percussion or whatever other things I feel like trying to incorporate. And I'm using those stickings and those texturized variations of those stickings, splitting them up between Mardi Gras Indian sounds, right? And then coming up with, you know, all kinds of stuff based off that. And I mean, I've, you know, done that all throughout my career. And I continue to do it. And the more I do it, the more I fall in love with it. And the more I learn about it and the more I come up with new ideas, I'm like, ooh, this is really good. And this is, you know, I'm coming up with these ideas and it's all based out of mixing the Mardi Gras Indian stuff with linear and layered and textured contemporary drum concepts that I've learned from Steve Gad, David Garibaldi and, you know, countless other incredible drummers. And then I'm just taking their concepts and trying to apply Mardi Gras Indian stuff to it. Man. It's just, it's the gumbo. Yeah. You know, but, you know, and I love doing that. I'm just trying to contemporize and modernize the New Orleans stuff, the brass band stuff and especially the Mardi Gras Indian stuff. So, and then just to take it on home with this. So the New Orleans drumming style just evolved over time basically with the jazz it's its own sound still. You can still hear New Orleans style but it's still evolving. I'm sure, right? Oh, yeah. It's just never-ending. But you hear these guys and I talked with Joe Lasty last night about it, about how it's not, it's fun and it's not like showy where like an arena rock drummer spinning a stick like that. It's more of like, you're theatrical with your playing. Now we're going back to preservation jazz hall to talk with Joe Lasty, who I had just seen perform a few minutes earlier and you'll hear Don McCauley chiming in a few times off mic as well. Well, really I grew up playing half-ass and the other half-ass way. When I developed this way that's when I started playing on Bourbon Street. As soon as I started playing on Bourbon Street that's when I started developing my stuff soft up, go the other way. Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah. It's almost, you've got kind of a loose and I should ask you because I haven't seen a ton of music around here yet. Is your style of playing, obviously it's your own way of playing. It's my own way. But is it, are people having a similar style and just the kind of, how would you define New Orleans drumming? Well, you know, like I told you it's definitely out of the church. Okay. And like I told you, it's that gumball, the gumball starts with a root and the root is where? It's the drums. The drums and the, got to do that bass. Mm-hmm. But the, what separates New Orleans music, I say this and I keep telling people this, is it's the church, is that church feel, you know what else do? Mm-hmm. What's been, what I've been hipping on to, Indian beat. Like Mardi Gras Indian. Yeah. I was just talking to Walter. Yeah, the Indian beat too. Yep. I've heard the bass drum and just that the lowest drum referred to as like the mother drum. That's right. From like those cultures where it's dah, dah, dah, dah. And it's the pulse. And it's the heartbeat. Yeah. So you put the Indian pulse and the church pulse. Oh. Yeah, you get the. That's New Orleans. That's New Orleans. So we're sitting there and you guys just walk in and you've just got your bag and you guys, as Don put it, you're walking into work. Right. It's just awesome. You kind of, you don't get there two hours before and set up your drum set. Right. I mean, it's already set up. It's fun. You just spun the floor time around and move the snare and then you're coming to work. You're coming to work. Yeah. It was awesome. And then you guys are just like, I mean, it's a shift in a good way. Right. And it's another thing too. Everybody liked their own cymbals. Everybody liked the way they own. Dude, I can go sit on anybody drum set, any cymbals, anything. And I'm going to be me. I'm going to bring me out of those drums that I'm sitting on. Yeah. I don't care who drums it is. Yeah. Absolutely. Or cymbals, because there are a lot of people saying, well, why are you using that cymbal? Why every time you go somewhere, you don't change the cymbal? I said, because I don't let the cymbal sound like it. I make the cymbals. Yeah. I want it to sound. You're the one playing. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. That's awesome. You can make a cheap drum set sound great. Exactly. I've been told that so many times. Come on. We didn't think we could get a sound out of those drums. I bought that for my kids. Yeah. But also, you know, like when you watch Shannon Powell, I mean, Shannon Powell will put on a show for you while you're sitting there watching him, showing you how soft and amazingly beautifully smooth he can play a buzz roll and make everybody in the room want to get up and dance at a whisper. And he's like, he's like, if he's looking at you and winking at you and being like, check out how bad this shit is. Yeah. Check this out. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, he's like, uh-huh, that's bad. Yeah. And he's barely moving, you know. Barely moving, barely touching the drums and everybody in the room is either out of their seat on the edge of their seat and it's, he's not trying to be showy. He is trying to impress you, but he's impressing you with his absolute control. Yeah. And finesse and musicality. Yeah. And he's looking at you like, yeah, check out how bad this shit is right here. Oh, go, go, go, go, go, go. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, go, go, go, go, go, go. Yeah. And you're like, oh, that's so deep. That's so killing. Yeah. Yeah. And you're looking at him and you're like, yeah, that's bad. You're like the baddest dude in the world. Yeah. And he doesn't have to pick up his sticks more than six inches off the head. Ever. Ever. That's loud. And you're like, oh, my God, you're the baddest thing I've ever seen in my life. Yeah. Man. So you're obviously representing New Orleans drumming around the world and you're a great ambassador for it. Where can people find you? Where can they hear you? All that good stuff. Yeah. Well, they can find me at Stantmore.com. But really the thing that I'm most excited about is my drum academy, Stantmoredrumacademy.com. I'm filming and we're in my studio right now. I'm filming video lessons in here all the time. And I'm putting those up on my academy. It's a subscription based site. And then there's a forum where guys are interacting with me all the time, asking me questions. I'm making videos based off their questions. And I'm writing out all these worksheets that go with the videos. There's over 300 pages of written worksheets. There's over 20 hours of videos. I'm also starting to do interviews. I just did an interview with Adam Deich. I did an interview with Keith Carlock sitting in these same seats that we're sitting in right now. And I'm just putting up content all the time. So, if anybody's interested in what I have to say on the drumming side of things, I would love to have y'all come check out Stantmoredrumacademy.com. Of course, I'm on Instagram and Facebook. But also, I've been putting up a lot of content on YouTube. Some of it is abbreviated lessons. And then some of it is stuff like Jazz Fest recap. And then a Mardi Gras recap. I just did. And then when I was playing with the Mardi Gras Indians. And then I'm about to, we just filmed and we're about to edit a Red Rocks recap. Cool. So even if you're not necessarily a drummer, but you're a fan of music and fan of what I'm doing, the YouTube channel has stuff that's not just drumming bass. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, music-based stuff, too. So, all of those channels. Yep. And on the road with Galactic. On the road with Galactic. I play every Tuesday. It's not Harbor. With my piano trio, David Torkinowski, James Singleton, my band members in Galactic and I, we just purchased Tipetinas. So, you know, if you love New Orleans music, come to the House of Funk. Yeah. You know, Preservation Hall is, you know, the House of Jazz Preservation. We are the House of Funk Preservation. That's great. Yeah. Cool. Come check us out. And, yeah. That's awesome. Those are all the things I'm involved in. Cool. Yeah, man. I appreciate you being on the show today. Thank you, Bart. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Excellent. Thanks for thinking on me. And, yeah. Thank y'all for checking it out. All right, guys. I hope you've enjoyed this New Orleans special episode. We're now going to close it out with our friend Greg Lambuzzi from the New Orleans Jazz Museum, who's going to describe some of his favorite pieces from the Drumsville Evolution of the New Orleans Beat exhibit. Yeah. So there's a really cool, one of my favorites is Baby Todd's Blood Week kit. It's the white Osher Pearl set that he had. And, curious stories. Anyway, so we had, you know, I've been with the museum for just close to 26 years now. Wow. And when I started off, I was doing inventory of the collection. And I came across a little scrap of paper that said, Baby Todd's is nephew. And it had his Chicago phone number on it. So I said, let me give him a call. And I called him, I said, do you, do you don't have anything from your uncle? And he said, oh, yeah, I've got the lovely kit in my closet. I'll mail it to you. And a couple of weeks later, we had this beautiful kid. And it's the one that he is, he did all the films and instructional films et cetera on. Wow. So it's a pretty, pretty incredible kid with still with the leather heads. Man. All that stuff. That's awesome. Now, why don't we go into a little more detail about that? Like what is, what are the pieces? What is it? I mean, how are the heads? The heads have to be, you know, calf scan, how's everything holding up? Yeah, really well. So there's, you know, it has the, I think it's a 24 inch base based from Love Lake Speedmaster. I think of them right. Based on pedal, then he's got like a 12 inch Tom and a, I think it's either a 13 or 14 inch. I can't remember. And then a, in that a floor Tom and some really nice set of, of lip blocks and cowbells. And he didn't, he was known for his dislike of the, of the hi-hat. Really? I think William F. Love Lake had, had measured his foot. For the, for the, both for the, the base from pedal and also for the early high boy, which was this kind of condensed version of the, of the hi-hat. Yeah. I predated the hi-hat. But he, with baby dogs said he didn't, didn't like that and rather be playing on the snare drum versus on the hi-hat. Yeah. And that's that whole, I've, it's kind of cool how as I've gone through a lot of these histories, it's like where, where the drummer time is what changes and kind of tells you about that, that era. So if you're, if you're keeping the time on the snare, you're typically before a certain time, but then when the hi-hat and the ride come in, but so he's old school. Well, I mean, he's born in 1898 or whatever, as I'm, as I'm looking here, it's, it's, yeah, he is definitely, that's, you know, whatever you're used to. So that's really cool. That's right. Yeah. It's interesting because with a drum set like that, it makes you wonder if it was, he's obviously connected with William F. Ludwig, the first and all that stuff. And if it's kind of a custom ordered drum kit, and if it sounds like he would be like an early endorser sort of thing where it's, you know, you'd be very proud to have him on your, your roster. Exactly. Yeah. I don't know if this is an area of your expertise, but baby Dodds is one of those people where he is basically pre kind of modern recordings. And a lot of videos where you don't see him very much. Can you maybe give us a little bit of a background on who he is and where he's from and what he did? Sure. Sure. So he, you know, he was, he wasn't from New Orleans. He was from Mississippi, but he ended up playing early as a, as a youngster in New Orleans, played with, with Louis Armstrong, I think for a little bit with Ting Oliver, you know, all the early greats and, and really influenced early drumming pretty heavily. And so, and he's on all the, the heights and all that early stuff with Louis Armstrong. But then later on in the, during the revival of New Orleans jazz in the 30s and 40s, people went back to him and said, you know, they wanted to record him and, and record, you know, oral histories with him and, and film him performing, et cetera. So, Larry Garrell was one of those people. He ended up writing a really interesting book on, on Baby Dots Is Light and record about 24 hours of, of interviews, which I'm including demonstrations on that very kit that we have. Wow. Yeah. And let, and Larry's still alive. He ended up doing any of those recordings to us and digitize those. Hey. We'll be making those available once we go. We, we'll, a, a record label for the museum that's called Gallatin Street Records and those will be available soon on, on, on that label. Cool. It'll be online soon. Cool. That's awesome. Yeah. He's, I feel like Baby Dots and Chick Web both kind of fall in this category of being before, like the Jean Krupa's and those, that kind of Rex and the Joe Jones, those next generation of like people who could be filmed and could be shared that way. So, so that's really neat. Cool. Yeah. What other, what other stuff you got going on there? See, we also have one of, one of James Black's sets. Of course, they kind of fast forward to the 60s and 70s. James Black was incredible. One of his drummers played with Yusef, Yusef Latees and Eddie Bo and others and from, you know, really hardcore contemporary jazz from the time to, to super funky New Orleans, New Orleans music with Eddie Bo. He was, he was comfortable with all of that and traditional, traditional jazz and New Orleans jazz, etc. But, but we have one of his, one of his remote kits. He was a remote rep. That's interesting. But fortunate to have that. Yeah, that came through Vernon Satterin who is the father of the Donets Rose, the jazz drummer. Wow. And Vernon, Vernon's father was a drummer. So there's a, there's a lot of drum history that he, he, James Black taught Vernon to play the drums as well, of course, as his father, but there's a role in each there. So we have some, so I have snare drum from Stanton Moore that he, that he has provided to us as well as really cool, one of the original Nexon and I low-wig bass drum pedals. This is the the first Mass Produce bass drum pedal. Yeah. And so Stanton has learned that to us for the exhibit. Cool. Let's see that drum from Shannon Powell, Hurlin Riley, Joe Lasty. List goes on and on. That's great. There's some really cool stuff in there. And also a lot of photography too. Some great photographs, some of the leading New Orleans photographers. Also, we have some drums that are learned to us from the Southern University African Art Collection. And these are some some less African drums that are in the Congo Square section. It's been fun putting this exhibit together. And I should mention that David Cuny and his curator, he and Bob Catiolotti get the majority of work on the exhibit and did a fantastic job. So we're lucky to have them with us and we've had contributions from Stanton and many others. Now, Stanton Moore is a great modern representation of that New Orleans sound and there's kind of a shuffle to it and it's that jazz, but it's not, I feel like that kind of jazz doesn't take itself too serious. If that makes sense. Like it's fun. Yeah. Yeah, it's fun and he's mixing it with other styles with funk and soul and other things. And you know, Stanton, he just purchased he and his band purchased Tepitina's which is one of the really cold night clubs here in New Orleans and really keeps the traditions going and so we're excited that he stepped in and was keeping keeping the club moving forward. Stanton also does a drum camp with us every year and it's going to the shirts and I think it starts around December 12th or so. And so he'll have folks in from around the country and he gives a number of individual lessons he brings in people like Johnny Bedokovich and Shannon Powell to give the individual lessons and he teaches the camp. Cool. Well, I'm sure if anyone's in the New Orleans area and you're listening to this then you'll you'll obviously want to go and check all this stuff out. But why don't you talk a little bit more about the museum in general? Like what do you guys do and what are like some special events and all that all that kind of cool stuff? Sure. So we you know, we we're a museum and of course we do exhibits like Drumsville. We do about eight exhibits a year. We've recently opened a really fun exhibit on exhibits and thanks in large part to the Jim Anani Prima Foundation also an exhibit of Eric Waters photography some incredible photography of Mardi Gras Indians and other cultural bears in New Orleans. But we also do performances and so we have this incredible performance facility on our third floor really, really great sounding room. We have performances daily Tuesday through through Friday at two o'clock then often concerts in the evening then we do about 20 festivals annually. Our museum takes about takes up an entire city block and we have around 70,000 square feet of grounds and so we'll have multiple stages one on either side of the building to the bigger festivals and one that's coming up at Satchmo Fest on a on a good weekend with good weather I think the largest crowd we had was around 54,000 people and they're pretty big pretty big festivals that one and then French Quarter Fest were a big part of that one and down river Fest another really great one is the Danny Barker Festival that takes place in January but so we do a lot of that and then also educational activities where we like you know Stanton Morris Camp falls within that but we also do a lot of K through 12 and we're about to open up a new education center it'll take up an entire wing but first floor the building will have that activated in time for Satchmo Fest for them to have their have the educational activities take place with them there Wow man people are lucky to be to have that in their in their city that's for sure thank you thank you we love it and we're you know our location like I said before we're between we're in the French Quarter but we're towards the edge of it on this Planet Avenue which is right between the French Market and a French Mystery where a lot of the music takes place in the city so jazz is very much alive and well obviously in New Orleans cool well Greg thank you so much for talking to me and I'll tell people right now that they can go to NOLA Jazz Museum .org NOLA Jazz Museum .org it is the New Orleans Jazz Museum and the exhibit is called Drumsville what was the full the evolution of I'll let you say that again Yeah sure it's Drumsville evolution of the New Orleans beat and also want to give a plug for some of our social if you go to at NOLA Jazz Museum you'll find us on Instagram Twitter and Facebook excellent cool well everyone be sure to check that out and if you're around New Orleans then head to the NOLA Jazz Museum man thanks for have a good one if you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review and let me know topics that you would like to learn about the future until next time keep on learning this is a Gwynn Sound podcast