 Okay, good morning everybody, and I've just started the recording so we're all ready to go Thank you everyone for joining today Aaron Dave Kieran Thomas welcome. He's one of you. Thank you for Joining I'm sure the others will Get into the class soon. Let's just pray together and We'll get started right So Thomas, would you be able to just pray with us as a class and we'll start Father in Jesus name we thank you for this wonderful day. Lord. We praise you. You are so good in our life father as we meet in a Digital through father teaches that we learn from your word a lot Help us to understand your word let the spirit of wisdom will be rest upon us father. We thank you We praise you for this time. We love your daddy. Help us to learn in Jesus name. We pray amen All right, welcome everyone and thank you for being on the call we start yesterday talking about the personal life of The church planter or you know, somebody who's going to start a ministry In an urban center, you know, we want to deal with in this section On how do we get ready? Practically if you're going to the plant a church or pioneer of work in an urban center and so Yesterday we talked about indicators of grace. I'll just quickly Share and review What we spoke about Let me make sure somebody was just coming in while I moved to make sure they got into the class. Okay all right So Here's the so You know, we'll be started talking about this on how do we recognize whether God has called you to pioneer to start something We said yesterday that you know God needs both kinds of people, you know, we there are some who are called to serve as Part of something that is already there may be an existing church or ministry And then God has called people to pioneer to start something How do we recognize some of that and so we went through this list here on the pointers or indicators that We just call it indicators of grace that means that that God has given you the grace to be a pioneer So we talked about the pioneering spirit We talked about the ability to work independently The ability to build bridges The ability to be a visionary Your prior experience and doing church plans or pioneering new works That is very useful we talked about studying in your heart to respond to a certain need or a certain situation or even serve a certain community certain People in society to address their need that can grip your heart Number seven you could have a clear confirmed word of direction from God and You know at the last last point was about Something that just happens in your life that now I just use the word Accidental in quotes We know it's not accidental because it's been orchestrated by God But we're just saying that you know just you didn't expect it, but it just comes your way and God set it up for you and he surprises you with it and You find yourself doing something where you're starting a work or you're pioneering a work and And you know it may not have been something that you Necessarily foresaw or planned ahead of time, but God orchestrates that for you. Okay, so went through these eight things Does anybody have any questions on what we talked about yesterday before we? Move forward anyone has any questions any thoughts that you were thinking about after class That you wanted to ask about discuss Okay, everyone seems to be fine. All right, let's go So we're going to move forward from there today And talk about you know just some wrong reasons Yeah avoid these wrong reasons To engage in a church plant that is some just put on a few points here Don't be motivated by strive for competition, you know To go and start a church. Oh, you know, so maybe some some some person started a church and And then you want to prove something to them And so you also go and start a church and then that's not the right reason there are right motivation for us to start a church or a Christian ministry Don't do this Just because other options in ministry didn't work out, you know, okay, you tried this you tried that it didn't work Okay, let me go plant a church. Let me go Start a ministry somewhere. Yeah, so You wait for God's definite leading and like you see look for the pointers indicators Don't do this as a job, you know, oh, yeah, I just Have nothing else to do maybe some organization wants somebody to go and start a work and You're nothing else today couldn't find a job. Okay, let me do this as a job, but That may not be the right motive and may not be the one a motivation that can sustain you because Doing a church plant or studying a Christian ministry It's gonna take a lot. It requires a lot. So We should just it should be it should come from within you some as from your heart your heart must be in it right and And don't do this for personal reasons Like to go to a new country or a city, you know for money or for comfort or status Sometimes and I've noticed this, you know people will come that's okay, you know I'll be a missionary to some nice place In order to go and start a church there Well, if you've got us called you to go and do something. Okay, that's fine If God has really directed you to do something like that to go to a certain city or a certain country and do it Okay, nobody's gonna question that but You know, don't do it just for the sake of Wanting to move to that city or that country or the sake of money or comfort or status Yeah, do it because there's a call do it because God wants you to do it and don't be motivated by other reasons because those things will fizzle out, you know that the The the excitement of those things will fizzle out and then you know, you You may not be able to continue Engaging in a church plant or in that Christian ministry. So avoid these wrong reasons When you are engaging in a church plant another important question that many people ask is When we talk about doing a church plant urban church plant or Starting a Christian ministry A question that comes up is should I Pioneer Should I work with an existing Christian ministry to start the church or What I plan to do Or should I do this? Indemparently do it on my own Right and again here just as we spoke about earlier There is no, you know Right and wrong answer that you know Basically you have to See what God wants you to do and pursue that But I just want to share some thoughts some things that you can think about right so There definitely are the benefits of working with an existing Christian ministry Whether it's a local church or denomination or paratroops or emissions agency They definitely have especially if it is a well-established Church or a ministry They will definitely that they'll definitely provide a lot of Advantages right they will be able to maybe Provide you with a lot of guidance Provide you with a lot of resources Pay you in a salary or something that supports you financially Provide you with maybe existing infrastructure so There are definitely a lot of benefits that come if you were to work with an existing Christian church or ministry to pioneer a work And those are good things. They're not bad things It's good that they can guide you. They can give you our training and show you how to do things You can definitely benefit from that but then on the other hand there are also situations where You may have to Completely go on your own. I mean just go and start on your own independently right and And if you're going to do that One of the things we suggest is to make sure you have good relationships with the people Who can care encourage and support you spiritually right? So if you're working with a local church an existing ministry Then that ministry is there to support you encourage you give you guidance, etc But in some situations you may have to venture out on your own independently So there is no organization around you. You are starting something completely on your own and If that's how you're going to do it then Make sure you have some people around you or people that you can relate to We care and encourage and support you spiritually that you can talk to get help get input People are the time to do that Who can be with you on this journey because it's a tough journey. It's not easy and You know, you do definitely don't need the help and encouragement people As you make this journey, right? So let's just think through on this What would be the advantages of Working with an existing Christian ministry if you Want to go and pioneer a church or or a pioneer a Christian in history in a city? Oh You know, some of the things that you can take benefit you take advantage of okay benefit from is They may already have a established Proven strategies and methods Yes, so they can tell you look here are some things keep in mind and this is how you go about it and They may have done similar work in other cities so they can share that learning They can share strategies Which is very very useful, right when you go out in your city If you can benefit from the work of other people if you can learn from what they've done in other places other cities Similar to the city that you're going to It's a it's a big blessing big advantage Another advantage would be that They may have a good support system to help you get started You know, so they may be able to They may have people on the ground in that city Or they may have a network of people others who are there who may be able to help you Now they may be able to even provide let's say a remote kind of mentoring communication support so working with an existing church or a ministry Immediately, you know makes the support system available to you so you can always you know talk to them consult With them get inputs get guidance Now, which is something we all need if we're going to be doing something We can benefit from definitely So that's an advantage They may be able to and I'm not saying this will happen all the time, but they may be able to connect you with like-minded people To form the core team Right. So if you say example, I'm going to go to a certain city and start a church They say hey, we know about three other people who want to go to that same city and or Who have the same thing and the heart to start a church there? No, then they connect you together and then you find that, you know, you know There is a there is like-mindedness That yeah, we can all work together And so you immediately are able to form a core team and go and start a church in that city or start a ministry so again, that's another advantage of Working with an existing local church or Christian ministry and They will be able to provide ongoing resources Spiritual oversight and support. That's another advantage. They may be able to take care of Some or if not all of the expenses and because there is a and there's an organization a body of people behind it This is an ongoing thing. They'll be there to provide oversight and support Another useful thing would be that they may have a name that is recognized and respected So if you go to a certain city and you tell them look, I'm you know from this church or from this ministry They may immediately recognize that and they may be people there on the ground May respect that and so they welcome you. So thank you now Of course, if it's if they don't like the organization, it could work negatively But I'm just assuming that you know the organization has a good name That helps There'd be people who be willing to assist you simply because You are coming from a certain Organization to do a certain work. They recognize it and they respect it and they will be able to help you and for the long term Working with a church organization, they can help with transition and continuity so if you need to So you started a work in a city You've spent several years there and you feel that you want to move on to do something else Because you're already part of a church, you know, you can work with them, you know, perhaps over the course of a year and Plan the transition so that the work will continue even though you are moving on Because they will send people in to take over the work and Continue the work so that way what you start will not stop when you leave the work and continue that's one way of Ensuring continuity and transitioning So these are just, you know, some of the benefits the advantages of working with the Christian ministry or existing church when you go out to Start a work right, so We definitely would see this as a good option perhaps in some cases it may be the best option To work but prime very important very important is that there should be Theological alignment and agreement Right. So for example And I will I think we will talk about it a little later if there is a mismatch Theologically It could rise to give rise to problems, right? Let's say, you know, you're a spirit fold believer and you believe in the manifestation of the gifts of the spirit and so on and you go join an organization a Christian organization That doesn't believe in that Now we are both believers and that's wonderful But if you go start a church and in the church you're encouraging the manifestation of the gifts of the spirit and so on but the organization that is sending you Does not, you know, really believe in that and there's going to be a clash But then you have to honor them because You know, the other ones were sending you the other ones who are, you know, maybe paying for a Lot of the expenses So it's going to be very difficult situation. So The best thing to do is to, you know, work with an organization where there is theological alignment. I'm not saying, you know This position of that position is more important that I use virtually you need to be able to flow spiritually with the organization as well. Okay, so There definitely are a lot of advantages in Working with an existing Christian church or ministry when you're going to go and pioneer or when you're going to go and start a work In a city and thank God these days. There are lots of, you know, churches and ministries that have this aspect of sending people out to start new work and You can work with them pioneer with them But here are some things that I just bring out as a word of caution Some other things, you know, that you need to think about as well Don't join a church or a ministry to do a church plant or start a ministry Just because an opportunity exists. Now, I remember again, I'm going back in time to the early days when After we moved to Bangalore, there were at least two occasions when this happened One was in the very early days. There was a somebody Had gone overseas They visited a big church in the United States And they came back and they said, you know This church, so they happened to mention about all people search We and the time we were in the early days. So we were still very small and yeah, not But they shared with them and then So that church in the US was very big church big ministry was very interested in doing something in Bangalore and So they were willing to, you know, they said look, this is what we want and we're willing to work with you With us APC here to do some work here in Bangalore, but I was very concerned because you know Obviously, they are very big church and We're just starting out in the ministry doing work here But I was you know, we have a vision a direction that we want to go and Would there be alignment in vision and I don't want I didn't want this engagement this Ministry relationship to become a hindrance to the vision from us proceeding with the vision So I sent them an email as you know, I thank them for the opportunity or their interest But I had to state very clearly that As a church, this is our vision This is where we want to go and we want to have the freedom to move with our vision. That was very important to me right Otherwise we will not be willing to take up this engagement and so when I stated that it just You know everything just dropped So that didn't work Another time I this was another big church again from them from the United States the team came Somebody came. It's actually a network Christian church church planting network I came out of a church but such blind network and so they came and they can they were Exploding whether you know, we would be able to connect with them and help plant a church or start a ministry and all and For them money is not a problem. They have the resources But again in that discussion that conversation for me was I was like, you know, hey There's a vision that that we have as a PC We want the freedom to pursue that vision here in Bangalore While they may have a vision to do something in Bangalore It may not be that we can connect You know, so but I have been those multiple Situations where different organizations churches have come In Bangalore and they contacted us See, you know, I could do this work and None of that materialized simply because I think one important thing was vision But we are called to do What they want to achieve? There was a mismatch and not not saying, you know, they're bad people anything. That's not like that This is not a mismatch and there's not a fit. There's not a match in the vision in what needs to be done and I Didn't want to give up on all of the freedom for us to pursue When God's called us to do so the point I want to get across is don't Jump into an opportunity that's before you Just because it came up You need to think about other things You need to think about Some of these things have just put down here You think about it, you know one of course like we just mentioned is Is there spiritual alignment? you know Like we mentioned so if you you are from a charismatic many coastal preservation and There's a church blending opportunity from a purely evangelical minister ministry that does not believe in the charismatic expressions if you don't discuss this openly and How you know, they don't give you 100% freedom to do what you want to do it could become a A point of contention and sometimes even division later on Right sooner or later these theological differences will come up And it could disrupt the work So just because there's an opportunity don't jump into it think about these things When when you want to work with a church or work with an organization to start a work Second thing to think about is the cultural fit, right? Is there a Cultural alignment In in what in the way they are doing things the way You want to do it and maybe the way you want to do it is very sensitive to A certain group a certain Target group that you are reaching whereas The culture and alignment that they are They bring maybe suited for another group a different cultural group and so To take that culture and push it here will not work And it won't work So you've got to Understand culture church culture the culture of doing ministry uh and And you know work with that. Let me just give an example for instance Uh, and I'm just you know using this as an example. I'm not trying to say one is bad or one is Versus the other that's not the point so Uh a Pentecostal Type of church Has its own culture for instance, uh, you know Example on the pulpit the congregate, you know the congregation to expect the preacher to shout, you know, hallelujah a lot of many times and You know, I'll be in a preach a certain way and They expect the worship Worship that takes place to have a certain kind of expression and they expect certain kind of things to happen during the service That's in a Pentecostal type. So that's a certain church culture now apc for instance Does apc believe in the Pentecostal experience? Of course we we believe in praying in tongues the gifts of the spirit the prophetic the charismatic all of that but The way we do it is very different from a typical Pentecostal type church The culture is very different although we the beliefs are very similar And we believe in the manifestations the gifts of spirit and so on the way it is expressed in a service setting is very different So I've had people There have been people who came to apc And they couldn't stay in this church. They couldn't be a part of the church because simply because they were expecting a Pentecostal type of church culture So now You know, for instance, I don't go up on the pulpit when I'm preaching shout hallelujah. Hallelujah. Hallelujah. I don't do that. I just speak I don't shout in tongues from the pulpit But they want that they expect that You know, I'm there many times I pray in tongues from the pulpit or from the stage main stage But I don't do it the way it's, you know, the typical Pentecostal type culture happens. I'm not saying that's wrong. I'm saying there's a difference So there have been people who've come attended the service and they say, you know, sometimes This has actually happened, you know, some people one person came up and said, are you a spirit filled church? You know, and I and I felt like laughing because I you know, because And their expectation of a spirit filled church was certain things like, you know, you the pastor has to pray in tongues on the in the microphone For, you know, so many minutes. There has to be the shouts of hallelujahs And I said, of course, I spend hours praying in tongues and we do all these things But they couldn't accept that the service was like, you know, it wasn't the way they expected it so I'm just giving a simple example where And when it comes to the expression of the church service itself If the culture is different And, you know, example, you want to join your you want to work with a certain Organization that has its culture But you're trying to reach a certain people who Who may be comfortable in a different type of church culture or ministry culture Then that's going to actually be an hindrance to what you're trying to do Okay So you have to keep that in mind It's not that one is better than the other. It's just that different cultures minister to different kinds of people And different kinds of people feel comfortable in different church cultures or church expressions and so on And so we need all of them just that You need to be clear on Whom you're going to minister how you you know, what the people are reaching out What kind of a culture would they fit into etc? Right that need to keep in mind Just a few more points and then we will pause for any questions another important thing That you have need to keep in mind when you're thinking about working with an organization a question You need to ask is How would they give you freedom For god's grace and gifts to be released through you Now you don't want to be in a place where you're stifled You don't have the liberty to release what god wants through you and this is kind of connected to what i just said earlier when there were different you know organizations or churches From from the u.s. Who had kind of contacted us in our early days You know wanted to see if we could work together and this was you know, look I really want the freedom to do what god wants us to do without being held back by some sort of a a relationship with a church or a ministry somewhere else Who want to execute something here in the city? So You need to ask yourself this question, you know, will you have the freedom? because otherwise If you join a church or a ministry That stifles you you're going to feel very frustrated And you're going to feel very Suffocated that there are things that are in you that need to be released, but you don't have the freedom to Release them to express them then You know at some point you're going to Want to get out of that kind of a situation So it's not going to work for too long Even though in the initially you may Try to make adjustments and all that it's not good. It's not a healthy Uh situation to be in so think about that another thing to think about is Does the ministry that you're planning to join Are they Committed to that city in region for a long term? Or are they going to do it just for two years and leave? because if you are going to go there It's very likely you're going to invest the rest of your life or the better part of your life Towards that church plant or that ministry that you're seeking to establish because it definitely will take time On you know and whereas if they are just there for okay, let's just do something for a short term They're not they don't have a long term commitment Then you're going to be left Abandoned at some point when they pull out So you need to have that conversation saying are you willing to you know work there for the long term? Because I am committed for a long term now unless both of you both of you are committed just for two years three years or five years Okay, there's a max like that fine. You're going to go for three years. Okay do it for three years and leave But if you really want to do a church plant if you want to establish pioneer a ministry in the open city, it's definitely going to take a lot of time years and Is there that kind of commitment? otherwise when you leave very often Things may shut down the whatever you've invested time and effort into me just come to an abrupt halt So you need to think about that Okay, and last point you also want to think about When you're planning to join a church or a ministry to do a church plant is to do they have You know Systems that they will by which they can provide support and assistance To help you in this church planting You know, that means is are they bringing value to you and going to help you? Uh in this way, right? So then it makes sense. Yeah, all the other things are falling in place and yes, they do have useful you know experience and Systems and assistance that they can give to help plant the church or the ministry so What are we talking about? We're trying to answer this question here. Should you pioneer And work with an existing christian ministry or should you do the church plant independently? What we are saying is there's definitely a lot of benefit of working with an existing christian ministry but You know, so we mentioned some of these advantages but at the same time There are some check, you know points of Caution things that you need to check carefully Before you commit to working with the christian ministry and so on to go to a church plant So let me pause here and see if we can have some discussion some questions On this any thoughts here Thomas, I see you mentioned a very important point. What was that? I I didn't see what I was talking Actually, I said don't jump whenever the opportunity is available And what we discussed today each and every points are very very important and In when we are choosing to join a ministry these are things are very very important as you said the freedom thing Because I have experienced where I was in the minute. I'm not blaming them But their vision is different and what God called me is different So when they want to be in their vision, it's kind of a suffocate or stress and we cannot lower As we want according to the God's will So we need a freedom when we join an organization at the same time Whatever the chance we get the culture what you told what we discussed today Really, I can recall it as the journey for the last Few years in another ministry and and certain experiences So that is why I said it's very important because whenever we get opportunity. Okay, some something we can do but It's important to see that's they give the freedom or the culture What their vision is match up what my vision is it's it's have to think and pray and to take the decision when a person joined the organization So it's it's very uh, takeable points today what you discussed last Good. Good. Thank you for sharing anyone else Dave connan any other thoughts? from your observations that experience Dave anything you want to say connan? Okay so I want you to just think about these things. So, you know There are benefits there are and I don't want to leave the impression that there are no benefits. There are benefits when you work with a Good organization that there's where there's alignment. There's a match in spiritual things Uh, and if there are people who've done this they can really be of very You know, uh, they can give you good input and all of that so that's very helpful but at the same time Be careful not to get into a situation where You know goddess put something in your heart to either plant a church or start a ministry in the city But you don't have the freedom to pursue What's what what's god has put in your heart then it can be very difficult You know, and I have observed I have observed very sadly Even here in our own city in Bangalore You know a lot of pastors and churches go through these struggles when And I wish we could help them in some way But because you know, you're an outside you can't too much uh, but then you see them go through the problems and it's because There is a like, you know, a touch touch planting network or organization and The individual church or the pastor who wants to pine here is very passionate about what He's been called to do But when there is this church planting network that comes in And when there is a mismatch It becomes very very difficult and sadly In the process I've seen a lot of pastors get hurt You know some of the things I don't just saying this not because I'm blaming Uh church planting organizations, but I'm just saying some of the things that have happened, you know when When An organization I mean, they're doing very well. They're doing very well, but some of the things that have taken place is when, you know, they Suddenly the organization tells the pastos being pioneering saying, okay It's time for you to move and somebody else comes in Now he has done a lot of the work and if there is no real reason and He's moved out to become an evangelist and somebody else is appointed a pastor. It becomes very, you know Now if he wasn't wasn't doing a good job or wasn't taking things forward, that's a different matter But when it just happens arbitrarily or people replace pastors around All those kinds of things have happened Uh Which can hurt a lot of the pastors the church planters the ministers So, um, that's why Uh, I just want to, you know Place this before you with a lot of caution There are definitely wonderful benefits of working with an existing church or ministry If there's good alignment and good support and the good relationships, it is wonderful But if that is not there uh a lot of things could go wrong And people could get hurt Which I you know, I do not want wish that for anybody So that's why, you know, I'm presenting these things to think about to be cautious about As you know, many of you are young and you're going to at some point Start a church start a ministry or be involved It's good to keep these things in mind Yeah, as you prepare for the future Okay So I'm going to pause here today. Um Let's see next week We're going to get to the next chapter which is personal preparation right, uh How can you Prepare yourself so in this chapter we talked about, you know, how can you know that you are called to to a church plant and uh, we answer the question whether you should work With an existing ministry or work independently. So we gave some guidelines on that The next question we want to talk about is how do I personally prepare for uh, pioneering a work, whether it's a church or a uh, christian ministry in the city. So we go through some uh, practical things on it and then afterwards we talk about Uh, you know, how do you make the journey some again some practical things to keep in mind as you make the journey Which will take years, you know, it's not going to happen in a few months Uh, that church plant or starting a ministry usually usually will take several years And so uh some guidance on making the journey, right? So we'll pick that up next week Let's ramp up. Let's close and prayer If there are no questions Okay, let's pray and then we can dismiss Um, I forget who prayed yesterday Who wants to pray can join and pray Dave, would you like to pray? Sure, pastor, no problem Father, we thank you for this class Lord Jesus. We thank you that you're learning so much About church planting Lord Jesus Thank you Father, like you have given us this desire and this willingness in our hearts so that we can follow your Follow the vision that you have given us Lord Jesus Each one of us We thank you. We thank you for our pastor as he taught us from his experience and from from from the world That from from the lesson that Lord Jesus, we thank you that let this lesson Be a role model for each one of us Lord Jesus So then we can come and look back at it Lord Jesus and we can learn again and again every time when we need it Lord Jesus And look this world be a guideline for us Lord Jesus so that you can show us the path and the way how we should Work and how we should live as we are administering your Lord Jesus Father, we thank you for our class once again and as we depart Lord Jesus I pray that your blessing to be of him each one of us Lord Jesus We thank you and we pray in the name of Jesus Amen. Thank you. Thank you everyone. I'll see you all tomorrow. God bless. Have a good afternoon. Bye now. See you tomorrow