 I didn't want to go into engineering, so I was a biomedical engineering major, which is pretty flexible. A lot of that major, they go to medical school or they go into law school, that sort of deal. So I'm like, all right, there's like three avenues there. So I really didn't know what I wanted to do. And then the last year I was there, I somewhat had a dream of teaching. I always like to teach sports for whatever reason. I love boxing. So growing up, I would like teach and mentor some of, even though I wasn't really a boxer, but we would just mess around and kind of teach and learn boxing skills from like Angela Dundee or something like that. And kind of, I don't know, I just loved the training aspect of it. So I actually had a dream of kind of, in a weird way, having living in my gym, you know, sort of deal while I was in college just hit me. But it was something like, you know, I just saw the light and there was like a path. And I'm like, whoa, okay, how do we get this path? How do I become a basketball coach? And then from that, I just wrote a bunch of mail outs. Because at that time, colleges is all I knew. So I just did a bunch of mail outs to colleges and really only got one response back, I think I probably sent out like 200 or so. Bob Huggins, Bob Huggins was at Cincinnati, wanted back kind of gave me a roadmap in a weird way, because I mentioned on on the mail mail outs that I, you know, I studied a lot of tape and watched a lot of clinics and, you know, the Hubie Brown clinic and the Bob Knight, his tapes were amazing. So I just wrote that stuff on there. And he basically said, learn the trade, don't learn the tricks, you know, so this is how you do it, go and participate in as many basketball camps as possible network, be the first one in last one out. I mean, I remember that that that letter back vividly, you know, so I just followed it. And from that point on, I just did a bunch of camps and put actually, I use the alumni network at USC, and I found a scout for the Denver Nuggets that went to USC and called them up and said I had a project to do, which I really didn't have a project to do. It was about interviewing, you know, somebody I wanted to be like when I grew up, I just figured that would be a good end. That is a good one. I want to take that phone call, you know, so he took the phone call. His name was Gary Sacks. He's a great, great guy. He was with the Clippers for many years, and he said we needed an intern. So it just happened to be perfect timing. Actually, no, my bad. The scout wasn't Gary. It was somebody that passed me along Gary's number. So I called Gary Sacks. Then I joined the Clippers that summer. I was an unpaid intern for a couple years, actually, kind of just hustled, lived on friends, you know, couches, that kind of stuff. Didn't really tell the folks that I was getting into it because I knew they wouldn't approve being in an Indian family, that kind of deal, just, you know, stereotypical stuff there. So, you know, the Clippers actually won the second year I was there. I finally told my parents they're upset, but they just, you know, they couldn't really control had the means. And then, you know, we made the playoffs and they really joined in. Then they just loved the atmosphere of the gym. One of the assistant coaches gave my parents tickets. It was amazing. So from that, they're, they're all in. And then the San Antonio experience happened. I met James Borrego helping him with video. He just never know what you can do, you know, one day can affect everything, you know, who's watching you, that sort of deal. And he was, I helped him with the video, VHS, VCR deal back in the days when they went on a road trip to San Antonio. And he calls me in the summertime and says, you know, we're missing a guy here in the video room. And, you know, and I was, and I had to sit down with my parents and did a pros and cons list of the clippers are going to pay me now. And San Antonio is going to be unpaid again, but it was room and board sort of deal. So I just looked at the pros and cons and we just, you know, said, Hey, let's just do that. Go to San Antonio. They end up winning a championship that that next season, or we did. And that was in 2005. And I met Sam and just everybody PJ Carlusimo was on that staff. And the next year, those guys went to Seattle. I had one more year in San Antonio. That's that's a whole nother story, you know, if you if you can make it through the first year in San Antonio, if they give you that second year, you're in, they're gonna they're gonna look out for you. But a lot of people don't make it to that second year. So made it to the second year there. And I remember that the series with Chris Paul in New Orleans, and we had a bluesing to the Lakers that year, never forget that. And then, yeah, and then I went to Seattle slash Oklahoma City, I think a month later went from Seattle to Oklahoma, Oklahoma City and saw that whole experience from the ground up. You know, I was there from, you know, when they touched ground when they had their first practice facility where they, you know, kind of rented and then bought it out and just the whole start of that deal I was I was a part of so that was great. That's really cool. So I'm curious when you took that first job with the Clippers, it was, you said it was an unpaid internship. How old are you when that happened, early 20s? I'm 22 years old. It was LeBron James. He was big in high school. He was like one of the first guys that play on ESPN all the time. They played at Anaheim. I remember that I was still in college, but that draft year, I was working that draft year with the Clippers and kind of doing database entry, you know, who's the agents of that class and their stats. And it was always hard finding the Euro league stuff back then, you know, internet was a little bit different and people weren't posting as much and you had to fax stuff. It was a little bit different. So you needed a person to put in the information into a database, whereas now you can just access it. And each team is a little bit different nowadays with the technology, but it wasn't what it used to be. So you would hire a person to file everything. So that's what I did. Gotcha. And when you sent out the, you said you sent out like 200 letters to all the coaches, did, did Huggins, did he, is it Higgins or Huggins? Huggins. Yeah. Did he call you or did he just send you a message? It was a letter, sent a letter back, you know, stamped and sealed and it was his words and amazing. I mean, it was just a roadmap. So it was unbelievable. So I found that and hung it on the wall and just kind of followed it. You know, that's really cool. Without that, I wouldn't be, you know, where I was or and without the San Antonio transition. I mean, just that fact of meeting James Borrego on the road, you know, on his road trip and somehow making an impression where you call, I mean, that's, it's great for that particular time. It's a lot of its luck. It's just anything in the entertainment business, basketball is entertainment business with professional sports a lot. There's so many people trying to get in the small community. Everyone knows each other. So it's really hard to get in, but, you know, you kind of have to have a little bit of luck to kind of get in there. So in the right situation of people looking out for you. And if, you know, San Antonio wasn't successful at that time, I mean, you know, there's so many different factors where people, you know, so that you came in. So there was 2005. I remember that year that was we. So we played the calves that year. And then how long were you in San Antonio? I was there two years. I was there two years. Yeah. So then the following year, they get through Chris Paul in New Orleans in game seven. I remember that series. It was blowouts for six or eight games. The home team blew out the other team. And then game seven, we had to adjust coverages on Chris Paul every single time out. It was just something new and ended up winning that. And then the plane got stuck on the tarmac overnight. It was like an engine failure or something like that. So I think we had to wait for new planes. So we all slept on the plane and then flew to LA, you know, that next day. And it was, it was bizarre. So, and then that first game we had had them down. I think it was like a 20 point. We're up 20 and the third maybe. And they, they, you know, Kobe took over at the end and we lost that first game. So. Was that the year that Derek Fisher hit that shot or no? I think that was maybe oh three or two, something like that. You know, that was, that was, yeah, a couple of years before I got there. Yeah. Gotcha. And so like with your experience, I mean, you've been around different teams, obviously, you know, the best players on the planet. What are some of the, I guess, the takeaways that you've seen from the top franchises you've been with, like the things that they have in common, I would say. Yeah, I think the ownership really matters. You know, you hear the cliche, the top down. I really believe in that. So that's a big part of it. The locker room really matters who your veterans are. That's a huge deal. Your star player, are they aligned with the coaches? You coach aligned with the, with the management is management aligned with the ownership? You know, so that, that's really the determinant of continuity, consistency, that kind of deal. And then there's a lot of luck elements. I mean, I can point to certain things that happened in those seasons that were successful and kind of how you got, got past that, you know what I mean? Like, so there's some luck element, there's some refereeing element, there's some taking advantage of the opportunity when it's their components, you know, so I mean, there's just so many factors you can ask anybody and they'll point to different things, you know, so, but yeah, just a common element. So is the work ethic of your best players? Are they just aligned with with the right messages, that kind of deal, you know, how your locker room is? And then there's like toughness components there. There's some, there's some role players or, you know, the quote unquote role players that really factor in and play, you know, play huge role, you know, roles in, in those pressure situations, that kind of deal. So there's really good game planning that goes in sometimes, you know, so there's just a lot of that, you know, there's a lot of that you're just hot at the right time. That was a big San Antonio thing, like they wanted after the rodeo road trip, they wanted to get hot, you know what I mean? Then you get the momentum going into the playoffs. You know, I really believe in that too. There's a lot of series, like if we, you know, San Antonio again played Phoenix, if you didn't play Phoenix, maybe it would be too slow going into the fight, like play Phoenix and you almost adapt to that style. And then you use that against the next opponent or your opponents in those rounds that you that you make it through, you know, it's a big deal also. Right. And obviously, like, I don't know if you can see back there, I have a photo of Ginobli blocking Hardin. I'm a big Spurs fan. He might be one of my favorite players to ever see live and in a practice setting. Ginobli. He's amazing. And the way he, how hard he practiced and how consistent. There was a drill you do, it's called a Spurs 100 drill. He wouldn't break 75 out of 100. First of all, it's very hard to get 75 out of 100, but he would always get that number from 70 to 75. He was just so consistent. You know, I just haven't seen anybody like that. It was almost the same every day. Yeah. Yeah. He's definitely, probably him and TD are always my favorite, favorite players. It's one of those guys, right? You have those players, you just got to let be them. You know, like Mike Campbell, they might make a mistake here and they're kind of wild at times, but you just know you're going to, you're going to get your teams better because of it, you know? And I think once you realize that, you just kind of let them be them. Yeah. Yeah. He definitely made, yeah. I would be screaming at the TV sometimes when I'd watch him, but yeah, you just got to take it, take it for what it is with Manu. So if you had to summarize Coach Pop in one word, this is something I wrote down. How, what would be that word? Because you've been around. He's the boss. Yeah. He's, you know, there's somebody that's, you know, so polarizing as an individual that just, I don't know, everyone just follows and for the right reason. Like that's him, you know? So it's like, what is Pop thinking? What does he think of me? What does he think of this situation? Like you just want, and he's able to handle that pressure so well. And then yet at the same time, be a human being. You know what I mean? Like he, he can get vulnerable and be very honest if he's, you know, not feeling it today or whatever it may be, but at the same time, strong enough to lead even when he's vulnerable. I mean, it's just, it's, he's got all the elements. You know, there he's got a powerful voice. He's all about the right causes of humanity. You know, he's family first. He's interest in your family. He gives you books to read. I mean, there's so many different dynamics that coaches do well. And I feel like he does all of them, but what really stands out is he's just so polarizing. He is the voice. He is the boss. And, and, you know, that, that's how it is in this business. Just a lot of people are coming for you. You know what I mean? Like they're really hard to just be the boss, you know, but for some reason, like he's the guy that does it, you know, so, and I would just guess Pat Riley and probably Spoe and those guys are probably very similar, but I don't know them, but just from what I hear, but pop for sure. Yeah, the boss, I like that. So you had, how many years were you in the NBA? Was it, you say 20? Yeah, probably started in 2000, 2002, 2001, 2002 season. So yeah, I mean, that's, yeah, probably 20, 18, 19 years. I probably, I think I got out in late 2020, maybe early 2021. So yeah. Gotcha. Very cool. It's an amazing career. And I know now you have a, a basketball program for kids that you started. What was that transition like going from NBA to starting your own business, kind of walk me through why you wanted to do that and just kind of like the background of what made you come to that decision and, and how I guess fast forward to now how things are now and we'll dig into that in a second. I think the kind of continuity that, you know, Sam and OKC, you know, I'm grateful to be there for that long. I don't, I think that's really hard to do in a way. So there's a lot of luck going on there. So, and I understand, I understand that even more now. I knew that going in like, wow, I'm just very fortunate here to survive coaching changes and that kind of deal. So I think where it came from was I was usually in the league and when you're a player, when you're in professional sports, you're, you're like known for something, right? Like you, you provide something that is of value to the team. So it's sort of just by being lucky enough to be there for so long. I was that was able to kind of change a little bit. Like, you know, I think first I have a film back, like that's where I kind of make my mark with the film and the scouting. And I gave my confidence to the film and that kind of deal. Right. So it went from there to scouting, to, to defensive planning, to now being the playoff expert, to scouting teams, and then starting to like, oh, I'm the guy that found plays for us to then it just kept morphing into then it went into player development. Then it was into skill. So the last couple years in the league, I was very, very into this private to my own demise. I was very much into skill acquisition, I guess. And the shooting stuff, I think came from Chip England and San Antonio, and I just learned that you can improve there. I think once you realize that, then you can kind of acquire teaching that kind of deal. But I think the demise of professional, you just, you just stick to your little niche and you're going to be good. You know what I mean? I just kind of morphed. And I think at the end there, I really was into player development. I was very much questioning that we were teaching the same things the league was over and over again to all these players. And was it really helpful? I mean, I think it is because you adapt to the NBA game, but there's so many skills out there that are, you know, untapped and unused, you know, that you might not necessarily need to have, but there might be different ways that you need to finish it. Like, how are you, how can you finish in every sort of way? You know, just kind of, just little things like that. So I was just on a quest, like what is every skill in the game of basketball? So from there, you know, the season ended, I wasn't, you know, I didn't come back and then my mind's already in that mentality. So then that's where my interest is now. So it's into developing either whether it's skill shooting, you know, I'm going to tack more back into the defense. That's really NBA. And then now it's just, I think my niche is and I'm finding it constantly daily, but I like that the eighth grade, ninth grade, 10th grade, I like that sort of age range and, and kind of developing that player and getting them to a point where they're skilled enough, you know, just, just good. And like, now it's like, how do you develop as a player? The same way I would do like with NBA guys in terms of the film, how do you know how to watch film? I think that's where the market is now. But in order to get that, it's, it's like you got to almost these guys, like eighth graders and parents, they don't necessarily know why that's valuable. You know what I mean? So I almost concept to them your concept. So I can't just market that. So I have to almost train the way that trainers train and be a little bit different and kind of give them everything I got. And then once I kind of have them, then here's the area right here. Now let's go form a plan off of your tapes and, and, and keep developing the player, the one or two things each season. And that's where I want to get to once I get the continuity with a lot of these players, I'm hoping to get, you know, maybe it's like 60 to 80 total, you know, that I can actually work with without breaking down myself. But then really, you know, hone in on 30 or so, or now it's like, I'm part of your, your development every single, like we're watching games together, we're scouting opponents together, that kind of deal, where you can kind of have an advantage. And I think that's where I can separate myself a little bit. That's how business is, right? Like, how is your product different than somebody else's? You know, so I think that's what it is for me. But the problem is, is a unidentified, you know, market right now. So I almost have to go into the major market and kind of distinguish myself a little bit there and then introduce this next market that hopefully will spread with word of mouth. You know what I mean? No, that's awesome. And that's kind of the big picture. Yeah. And I do know, like, a lot of coaches out there say that they do like film breakdown and stuff like that for their clients. But it's going to be very different when you do it. Just because like that, that has been your expertise. And it's worth right there. Yeah. Like, yeah, so that that's in terms of planning and like, finding the one or two things like it can change a lot. But it's like, all right, how are we going to really get this better? And what is that's going to really make your growth for this year, you know, jump up? And then, you know, level like how do you teaching them how to prepare themselves for opponents and that kind of do because at the end of the day, like, I think what people forget sometimes and I don't know, this is, this is what I think like it. And again, everyone has their own niches with this sort of stuff. And my problem is that maybe I'm I really like to dabble on a lot of different things. But at the end of the day, it is a game. The skill stuff is amazing. Everyone's going to need it. Everyone's going to need the shoot and they're going to need these components, but you're doing it to play a game. And how well can you play that game? It's a very simple obvious, but I think that's what's kind of forgotten sometimes, you know, yeah, how can you master this game, you know, right way. So yeah, I think the best way to truly understand that is by going back and watching how you play. And I think a lot of that, that that's something I work on with the coaches that we work with too, with their sales calls and how they run their business. It's like, let's go back and look at the data to see what's actually working, what's not working, because that's that's really the only way you can plan for the future is by understanding what already happened. I can just get better and tweak things. So I'm curious when you started your business, like when did you start your business? July of 2021. Cool. So it's been a little less than a year. And what was the biggest, like when you started, what was the biggest challenge that you faced? I guess, for me, because the team, there's a comfort level, right? Your teams are established, you know, you're working for a company. You know what I mean? So it's taking care of, like life is almost taken care of in a way. Hotel rooms, food. That's right. You just show up in front of the office, go in and go to the court. So I mean, imagine that 18 years of that. And then now it's like, I got to figure out how to create these new routines. You know what I mean? And then on top of that, we're at zero right now. So there's a lot of uncertainty. And that's what I'm in still right now. It's going to take right just with any business, unless you just kind of hit early. I don't know how many businesses I'm sure a lot do, especially with the new technology and social media. And just, you know, you just hit it like real. But I mean, you're going to have to kind of develop a foundation and layer and every day is just like finding what it is that works. And you're finding yourself and what you do. And you're going to fail. And then you're going to create some some process in there that will avoid that failure for the next time. And you're going to have, you know, you're going to have your waivers going to change a little bit. And, you know, these rules are going to change a little bit. So we're in that stage right now. So and then hopefully, you know, you just kind of believe that it's going to, you know, it's going to, it's going to work out. And we have, you know, that you believe in your services and you have a good market for it. And you kind of see the long-term plan and goal. Just, I think that's how players are too. Like what's the long-term vision? And if you're short-term, you can, you can get emotionally, you know, checked out at times and not believing in that confidence at times. So I think it's very similar to what, you know, what players go through when you start a business. It's a grind in the beginning, you just got to layer it. And anyway, I'm starting over, right? So I'm starting, I'm starting fresh. So I'm going through that right now. And that's the thing with the team. It's just, it's great. And then, but then the, your average lifespan is like two years or so. And you're going to get, you're going to get fired. Most coaches, you know, especially in pro sports. So then it's like, you, then you're hustling to try to latch back on, you know what I mean? And now it's like, instead of latching back on, I'm trying to create something. Yeah. Yeah. It's that, that is very different because when things are, the way I've had a lot of conversations with people over the past six years about going from a job to your own business and like that sense of security of everything is taken care of. I just need to execute my job too. I need to execute on my business and I need to make money, right? And I guess like, what is, what would be something, a word of encouragement that you would give to someone who is, they're thinking about starting a business and they're, they're hesitating for whatever reason. It's whatever it's the security or because it's not like, it's not like someone who's thinking about starting a business has to go all into their business on day one, right? But what would you tell someone who's just a bit of a little hesitant starting their business or, or maybe even doing it full time? Yeah. I mean, I think the hardest part is the patience and I completely get it. You know what I mean? That's the hardest part. And I keep telling myself is how many basketball players are there and then how many up and coming basketball players are there. And then, you know, people who aren't even born yet. It's not going away. It's not going away. So you just kind of believe that you're, even if there's, you know, a competitor, like, there's enough for everybody, you know what I mean? So just support each other and, you know, and just, just, just stay patient. That's the hardest part though. I get it completely, you know, so when you have a family, I completely get it. So that's it. But in fact, if you're young, find mentors, you know, and they, that will give you the confidence, you know, over again, and you almost have to, it's really hard to just kind of learn a lesson and then have it stick with you. Usually that's kind of how people find their path though. It's like one little spark, you know? So if it, if it was that spark for your training business, hold on to that thing, you know, and just keep, keep plowing away. And, and, and, because it's going to be rough for everybody in the beginning. So it really is. Yeah. Yeah, I'll tell you this, this story. So in 2009, I don't think I've told you that. I mean, yeah, I don't think I've told you this, but back then I was, I was working for a business. It was an unpaid internship. So when you said that, that reminded me of, of what I went through with that. And it was a job that I knew if I got through the internship, I could have worked there. And I think I would have made like, I think back then it was like $13 an hour or something like that. And during the internship though, I just, I, I had this itch. I was like, man, like, I just don't, I'm not fired up to do this. And I need to do something that, even if it barely makes any money, I need to do something that I feel a little bit more fulfillment. And you're talking about mentors and like back then I, it's like, I didn't feel like I could talk to anyone or learn anything or just, and also I was very stubborn. Like I just, I thought back then that I could just figure things out. And like the first client that I had for soccer training, I used to drive to their house. They lived in a neighborhood that was like 20 minutes from where I lived. And I would go to their house and I would train these three brothers and these kids, it's funny because now they're like, I think they're all in high school, but back then they were like eight, six and four or something. And these three kids, they were so difficult to deal with. Like my sessions, I felt like I was a babysitter, but I had zero control of the session. And it was crazy though, because like the first session I had with them, I met their father and their father was a, a very successful tennis trainer in my city. And he knew that I wanted to like start this thing in soccer and he would bring me back to his office after I would train their kids. And this guy, he's like, he could be like the world's greatest motivational speaker if he, if he went into that market. But I remember he would bring me in there and I was this like really quiet, shy guy. And he'd be like so excited about what I was doing and how I could help so many kids. And it was crazy. Like for me, that was a spark. It was spending time with this guy that I felt like he was way more excited about my business than I was. And I remember every single Thursday I'd train their kids from three to four and then I would stay in his office for like multiple hours. Like it was like, I would just go there and it was like my school. I learned from this guy. His name is Mike Greenwood. And I just remember like the amount of action that I took by just like listening to him and being around someone that like was successful. It was crazy how quickly I could implement things. But it made me believe so much more in what I was doing. And it was like, I needed to have someone like that in my life, especially during that time. And I know that's, that's a really important thing for people that are either younger or newer to businesses to be around those who know what they're talking about. Because you just eliminate mistakes. You end up saving a lot of money. And you, you get more confidence to do what you're doing. And I'm curious for you, since you started your business, I know you said at the beginning like you're at what 40 clients right now. Is that right? That's right. What was the, and I don't know, because everyone has a different story, but what was, what was the feeling, the initial feeling you had when you had your first customer sign up? Yeah. Well, my wife and I are kind of part of it together. So yeah, I know it's, it was big for her too. It was like, oh yeah, we can, we can do this. Because in the beginning, I had severance after the first year. So I was really just training for free just for the love of it. So even for myself, I mean, just with the experience that I've been through, just that first one, it was like, okay, it felt good. It was a new feeling, you know, but it was, it was a validation. It was like somebody's paying for, you know, kind of services, it's business. It's like you get your first intro to what business is, you know, and yeah, and then it's just a different with, when you have a family dynamic then, because then you have to like, there's certain goals, you have to kind of reach financially that kind of do is very real. It shouldn't be about that. But the end of the day, though, that's why you're doing it. You're doing it to support a family or whatever it may support yourself also, you know, I mean, there's some factors there too. So and that makes that very real too, you know, it's like, this is good. But now we need, now, okay, how much do we need to actually survive each month? You know, yeah. No, man, you touch on a good point because there's an illusion out there that and I don't know, I think most people will disagree with what I'm about to say. But like, a lot of people will get into training kids because they're passionate about doing it. And everybody who trains kids should be passionate about doing it. Like that's, that's a given to me. And everybody should work hard and everybody should have a great program for kids. But a lot of people think that just because they're passionate means that they're going to make money and put food on the table and be able to provide for their family, which it is just, that's just not the case. Because it's like, you have to be able to make money and you have to be able to charge for your services. And I do talk to a lot of people every week that, you know, they do things for free. And they want to charge, but then they feel guilty about charging because a lot of people think that they can't, for whatever reason, they think that they can't charge a premium or they can't charge anything for this type of service. And then I always point back to people like that are doing it. And it's a very common thing for this to be a business. But I'm glad that you said that because you can be the most passionate person on a roll. But when it comes to business, you have to be able to charge for your product and you have to be confident with what you're charging for your product. Actually, I think that's why, you know, that was so helpful. Our initial conversation, you know, four months ago, just as far as knowing what trainers charge and that kind of stuff. Again, these are things that you should know. I mean, you should take polls of and even in the team setting, you should know what, you know, your position is getting offered usually in business. There's going to be people that want to save the team, save the company. And you got to know your worth, you know, in a weird way. And I'm saying all that, but I have issues with that in myself because I want to help people, right, just like everybody. So I, I'll go over an hour, you know, hour and a half sometimes over the hour. And then my that's that's the reason why I want my wife to join in on the and partner up in a weird way. And, you know, hopefully our relationships keeps growing, you know, because, you know, they always say don't don't mix business, you know, with family that kind of deal. So, but she's really like, you know, my partner in and I can get taken advantage of in a weird way because I want to keep helping and I want, but then she puts in perspective that what that extra 30 minutes really did to the business, what it did to her, what it did to the family, and how we took time away, how the energy, how you're feeling right now, all of that is worth the money, you know what I mean? And then more for the next time. And, you know, there's so many different layers to this thing that you just are in the moment. It's kind of like a kid, you're like a kid, and, you know, you're emotional in the moment, or you're just indulging in the moment, or you don't want to do something because it's hard. You know what I mean? Like you're like that as a coach, you're just giving all this extra stuff and you're giving your extra effort and energy. When you're already given what you're supposed to give, you know what I mean? And there's a cutoff time, you know what I mean? And that's what next time is for. And I get all that. And then in the moment, we just kind of succumb to it. But it's absolutely right. Business is business. I mean, that's, that's because once you give extra, you're taking something away from somebody else or yourself, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And it's, I think it's that that's been one of the biggest things I've struggled with even now. It's, you know, because I think as coaches, like we want, it's just natural for us to help. Like we want to help everybody. And I think that that's a, it's a big blessing to have that because like people who aren't coaches, like they just don't have that quality. But at the same time, that can be a curse because it requires so much time, requires so much energy constantly thinking about it. And, and that's good though, man. Like, I mean, I can definitely tell you, my wife, since we've been married, I remember a week after we got married, I stopped working on the weekends. And I used to always have sessions on Saturdays and Sundays. That was like a common thing. And at that point, like, I wasn't grinding it out like 14 hour days, like how it was in the past. But that helped me a lot because like once I started to create boundaries, that improved our relationship. And it also made me take more seriously, like the time that I'm spending. And it, it helped me really respect my time more, which makes it easier for other people to respect my time as well. But yeah, that's a, that's a tough thing because like everybody wants to give and give and give and you have to like to be a trainer and business or you have to give your time and you have to give your expertise. But having that boundary. And I think for you, like that's probably a really positive thing just because it's, it's very easy to get trapped in that where it's just like, you're constantly on your phone, you're constantly checking emails, you're constantly talking to people, you're at the gym, you're training extra hours, and then like you get home and you're wiped out. Because the team aspect, I mean, that's where your habits come in. You know, you have two players that are given to you because that's your players to work with for the team, right? You have your scouts, etc. So you just give everything you've got for them. So if you have that same approach for the session, you're just going to get burned out in it. Correct. You know, so it's like, you know, there are times where, you know, we have a group of four. So I know when you have a group of four, a lot of times, one person's just going to get, you're not going to give everything you have for one of the, you know, the four people, you know, maybe you're, you really notice something with one of the, you know, people. So then you're putting a little extra time there. There's like a dynamic to groups, right? So from that, I can be really regretful. Like, man, I didn't pay enough attention to this person, that sort of deal. And you're thinking about that. But if you don't have that kind of communication with yours, and if you're another about what's going on in these sessions also, but then they might be boring for them too, but they're not going to quite understand. That's where it's kind of helpful, though, that my wife knows. And then she'll be like, look, and then she'll kind of break it down again. Like, no, they got something, you gave everything you had, right? And that kind of deal. And then we're back, and then I can kind of forget about it, you know what I mean? But it's easy to help our communication because she knows what's going on. She knows who I'm working with. She knows, you know, what we're working on, that kind of stuff. So she'll, she'll kind of know when I'm kind of checked into them when it's over with. Yeah, it'll put me back. But if I, if she didn't know all that, then I would have to communicate that. That would be hard to do. Yeah, gotcha. Yeah, cool. And so you've been running your, your skill development business for since last July. And what is the biggest thing? It's really two, two part question, but what's the biggest thing you've learned just about the business over the last several months since you started? That's a good one. I don't, I mean, business is like naturally competitive, right? Like you just kind of get, so I think the, in a weird way, the less competitive I am, the better it is. You know, so, you know, in a weird way, like, actually we'll send people, you know, to other trainers for if they specialize in things, because at the end of the day, and I don't have no problem doing that, you know, so to have relationships with other trainers is a huge deal, you know, like we're kind of trying to help. In my mind, it's like, all right, let's get Oklahoma basketball better. You know what I mean? So I just feel more at peace that way. And it kind of, things are kind of following the line and working out that way. I have noticed the communication you have with the parents is so huge. So I'll set aside time, I'll show investment. And it goes the extra mile, you know, the text messages back to the parents, that kind of stuff. They'll text back at just how involved, how much they love their kids, you know, and, and then honesty sometimes, and when they're over pushing them and that, and sometimes a lot of times you, they want you to be the voice that they can't be because, you know what I'm saying? So they're actually communicating to you what they're telling your kids, but they know that their kids aren't listening to them. You know what I mean? You're the middleman. You're the middleman and that's okay. You know, and I get it just being a father that your voice can kind of get drawn out. And actually that's the really good coaches, they're really good coaches in team sports. It's why they have assistance and they know how to utilize them. And they know how much is too much with their voice. There's a little art to that too. You know, so, and I get that with parenting. And I think once you show that kind of relationship and investment to them also, it's going to go a long way. So I'm learning all that too. It's just not about, you know, putting this plan together and going and getting through the session. I just have a relationship piece with the parents and it doesn't mean you have to go like it's just going to come, but you just got to let it develop though, you know, just a couple conversations before or after the sessions goes a long way. Yeah. And then if you're thinking about them, follow up texts and let your partner know, like, I'm thinking about this parent right now, I'm going to go text, you know, but that kind of deal. So, yeah, no, I think those are, those are huge pieces, just like the competitive aspect is just, just figure out how you, how to help help the player. That's the market and keep finding ways of getting better with that. And then that's the business aspect, right? You're just kind of constantly serving your business and ways of getting it better. Keep re-upping the processes and making it more efficient and then have those relationships because it is a relationship business just like, you know, any other like mom and pop business has got to be a relationship business, right? So it's very similar. Yeah. No, I love that because I remember when, when I started my business, I was like the most competitive, I'm still very competitive, but my mindset's changed a lot with like how I view business competitors and stuff like that. I remember I just like, when I found out somebody else was doing the same thing I was doing, I was like, all right, they're not going to be in business in a year from now. I seriously would think that way. And the older I got, I was like, and that's such a corrupt sort of mindset to have because the pie is big enough. And if I really want to truly develop players, like, how would I let my ego get in the way of that? Like, there's so many other coaches and kids need exposure to other coaches. Like, I'm not, I'm not the greatest coach in the world. So like, I have no business thinking that way, but it took me time to mature out of that mindset. And it's good though, too, because if you're referring kids to other coaches and like, that gets them to respect what you're doing more. That works out vice versa, where like, they will probably send you kids and it's a really healthy approach to look at competition, in my opinion. So that's really cool. So this follow up question is, what have you learned about yourself since you've started your business? Like, what's like something that maybe you didn't know about yourself that you have or something that's been reinforced since you've started your business? I guess I'm a guy that cares a lot, you know what I mean? So I think that's just been reinforced. I think that's why they like me in OKC. And, you know, I'm pretty in, you know, the people that stick, you know, with me here is just the fact that I'm going to invest, you know, and that's just kind of what I do well. I got a lot of weaknesses and, you know, and that's why I was like, you know, begging my wife to help me out and come in with it too, because, and I think that's the hardest part. When you're younger, you don't know what your weaknesses are, or maybe you do, you just kind of run away from them. When you get older, you realize that true leaders, especially I'm fortunate to work with some really, really unbelievable leaders. So and that's what I really notice is just vulnerability, just kind of getting it right, the ability to work with people. And then I think that all stems from the fact that you know where you're weak at, you know, and then the people that you trust, and you're going to you're going to take a poll and you're going to you're going to try to get it right, you know, and if you're wrong, it's OK, but you feel good about it because you actually thought about those things, you know, so I think that's it. Now, I'm not saying that in my ways that the right way, and I'm not they're trainers, you just got to figure out who you are, right? Like they're trainers that out there that are really, really close with, you know, really prime time people by public figures, that kind of deal, nothing wrong with that at all. That's the niche. So from that, you got to use social media and that kind of aspect to kind of to create a hype in a way. And I'm not saying that your teaching is bad or anything like that, but that's you're going to you're going to dominate a marketplace that way, you know, and I think that's fine. Me, I can't do that, you know. So, you know, I was trying to do a little bit early, just the NBA name and I like that's not who I am, you know, so I'm just more of a kind of consistent and just say the course. And if I can just keep working with the same people, you know, weekly, I'm happy. But if I feel like I'm going to lose them, then that's where I kind of, you know, I'll get a little down on myself. So that's the, to ensure that I just try to kind of invest. I'm going to lose some, but I, but the way I function is just try to hold on, you know, so whereas some it's just in and out, but the name will create more and more and more and more. I completely get that would be fun too, you know, but that's not who I am. So yeah, the in and out type of business though is, it's like a roller coaster. And I've talked to some, a lot of people that operate that way and, you know, they can have big summers. And then when they get to September, they are struggling. And for me personally, I'd rather have the slow build for decades than a, you know, big month, small month, because like to me, I don't know, I just think that's a, it can be a very stressful way to operate because it's hard to make good quality business decisions when you're stressed and anxious and worried. See, I mean, I love your approach. And so right now you have, you said 40 clients. Where did these clients come from? How did they hear about you? I made a pretty good contact with one of the buildings here. So, you know, he kind of helped spread my name a little bit. But yeah, it's word of mouth. Word of mouth has been huge. Occasional, you know, social media, some contact there, but it's really word of mouth that is fueling the business. So I just think that's where it's going to go. You know, you just try to do a good job and get somebody better and then help them through the film eventually. And then hopefully that message will come out and then it'll become a market. That's my end game. It's just having that be the market. You know what I'm saying? So that's kind of where it's headed. You know, and I'm trying to get that number to the 30s, 20s, 30s where I'm just like completely invested in the whole season AAU, in season, that kind of deal. And I'll be happy. So yeah, right now it's like two or three and hopefully once that number, I mean, it's 40 total that I'm training, but two or three that I have that sort of dynamic with. And if that number can keep growing, that'd be great. Yeah. No, I love that. Yeah. One of the most successful guys I'm working with right now, he's, I would say 92 to 95% of his new clients, it's all word of mouth. And one thing that we've tracked is like his referral program, how he has it set up, how often he reaches out to parents about, you know, getting new clients and stuff like that, and how he incentivizes them. And it's, it's like a built up machine, but like I've talked to people and I kind of want to hear your take on this, but I've talked to coaches who aren't getting anyone from word of mouth, like their business is just stagnant. And I have a lot of thoughts on this, but I'm curious to hear, what would you tell someone if they're a business, if they're a basketball trainer, they're not getting any new clients from word of mouth, what would you, what would you tell them? I mean, that'd be interesting, right? Because the clients that they do have are not passing the word. So like who are they, if they're training high school kids, I feel like that word of mouth will travel. Because now you're going into AAU and you're going into the team. And the parents definitely, now again, I'm, I'm fortunate I'm in Oklahoma, everyone knows each other here. So I have to understand that, that area, like this New York or LA, from what I hear in New York, yeah, maybe it's not going to be as much word of mouth as people pay for training, you know? So, but yeah, you got to have camps then, you know, right? You got to have these camps to help get the word out. You got to, you got to hit up the YMCA. You got to tell them, you got to see if you could speak to their teams, rec teams, stuff where, where kids are involved, where their parents involved, and figure out a way to either do it through flyers, or, you know, if it's important to you, if that's what's important to you, just like you said, you're going to come up with project, you're just going to, as you said, the machine, you're going to create a machine that you get. You know what I mean? I just think at the end of the day, it's a spark, right? Like, all right, we really need the word of mouth to get better. All right, now let's just target it. Like, where does it start? You go on the white board, and then you'll come up with a plan, and that will suit you. I'm just throwing out stuff that will probably suit me, you know, you kind of create something that'll suit you for it. Yeah. No, that makes sense. And the thing I, when people tell me that, I tend to tell people two things, it's if, if no one is spreading the word about your program, either you're not asking them to do it, or your program isn't good enough, which is very blunt. That's what I was thinking, right? Like, but I, you know, yeah, you didn't want to be the one who said it. Yeah. It's a very blunt thing that I tell people, but, but that's the thing is like, you know, if I go to a restaurant and I absolutely love it, like, I'll tell people about it. If I go to a restaurant and I, I don't love it, I'll tell people not to go there. Right. And, and I think one of the, the major problems that I think people face if they're not getting new clients monthly with word of mouth is they're, they're not asking people to give, they're not asking for referrals, but they have to improve on the program, which I think, I don't know, this is, this sounds kind of old school, but I know a lot of people are so wrapped up with social media and they want to, they want to be the biggest social media trainer, but they're not seeing that translate to their local training business. They're not seeing that, those numbers translate. And yeah, I don't know, people, people have to improve. I am lucky because I'm thinking about it now. Like that name, just having that resume, I guess, has been so helpful for me with the word of mouth, because it's easy for the word of mouth travel. All they have to say is he spent 18 years in the NBA. And then from that, they'll type my name into Google. Right. So I'm pretty lucky with that aspect. I'm just thinking about now, and I'm thinking about food restaurants, right? There's some places I've been to that are unbelievable that are just in bad locations. And usually that word of mouth gets out because of Yelp or, you know, these reviews, right? I passed that along to somebody else, and that's what gets them to go there. It's like, Oh, it's on Yelp. And a lot of people think the same thing Vinny does. You know what I mean? So let's go out of our way to go over there. So maybe that's, that's the way to do it is just you have to get maybe these reviews. You get some sort of a link that somebody can send of your program. Yeah, that's a big, big piece is social proof. It's, you know, getting reviews on Facebook, getting reviews on Google. If you have like Google, my business set up. Yeah, like, my favorite restaurant is like total, like round trip, but where my house is where the restaurant is, it takes probably like an hour and a half there and back to get there. And like, their location is terrible. But like, they're very successful. Like, it doesn't matter. Like, I will, even if we live 30 minutes further away, I would still go get their food. It's that good. It's a Thai restaurant. And like, I mean, that place is very successful because and one reason is because of the reviews. That's how I stumbled upon it. Old school restaurants you'll see in their window cells or just in their restaurants, they're going to see magazines are going to see newspaper, newspaper articles of their place. And that's how they used to do it. You know what I mean? So it's tied in some way of getting that knowledge out there that this is a really good place. It's just hard to find. So go find it. You know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I like what you said, though, man. It's like, I think if it's like this with anything, it's if we don't know how to do something, we just got to figure it out. Just got to have a high sense of urgency to get it done. And if it's that important, it will be done. And I'm thinking about now just as far as like, if I'm being really real, like that's the MBA background has helped me out, right? And then even in the gym that I'm using, I'm using a high school gym, I'm not getting any of the high school kids. You know what I mean? Because they don't they're like, why do I pay for somebody no matter what his background is, if he's just using our gym, he should be training us for free. So I would I'm just so there's a lot of luck factors here. I only got the gym because of the background, right? And then I can't even get those kids, the home kids, I can't even get them, you know? So I mean, it's hard, actually, I'm thinking about it now. It's like, would I even be surviving right now if I didn't have this background? You would be. Yeah, because, because the thing is, is like, I really do believe this at the end of the day, someone someone will stay in business, because there's a big difference between starting a business anybody, I could go start in the business tomorrow. But like staying in business is for people who care, which is something I know you bring to the table. And for someone who like truly has a good product in place that can help kids get results. And at the end of the day, the parents, parents want to invest into something that their kids enjoy, their kids are learning, they're, they're, they're getting mentally stronger, they're more responsible, like all the positive qualities that should come with the program. And they can see it ultimately a transformation in their child through a coach or a mentor. And they, they will do that with you and they will do that with a guy that doesn't have an NBA background. But like, that's, that's why you'll thrive in this business. I mean, because like, I really do see like, and this is an unfortunate thing to say, but there are many coaches that I've spoken to, that they just want to make money. And like, that is one of the priorities, like you have to make money. But you have to care, like you have to care about kids and parents have to feel that too. Because like there's, there's coaches that can get away with just being fake and, you know, being really nice and persuasive and charismatic. And, and that only goes a certain distance. And then those who truly care though, they thrive in this game, especially the long term, they're thinking long term. So yeah, man, I want to congratulate you for, you know, getting started with this business, you did not start at the most optimal time. But, you know, you're, you said 40 clients and, and you're going to continue building and what would be, I guess, before we, we leave the conversation here, what would be like one last piece of advice you would give to someone that's considering starting a business or, or just taking their business to the next level? I think the past like, if I don't know how long, you know, if you just circle back on what our interaction the past five minutes, I think that will just highlight it, you know, like I'm six months in or seven months in, it's so important to have these sort of conversations with people that you trust, that reaffirm, reaffirm, confirm what you're doing. Because you're a human being, and you're going to need validation until it gets there to where you want it to get to. And this is like, if you don't have people like this, or the conversations like this, you're going to, you might just, you might just bail out on it. Yeah, isolated. You know, so I think that's what it is, to be honest with you, I think just exactly our interaction the last six minutes was like a mentorship sort of thing. You know what I mean? Like just something you need to have, that's why it's great that you need to have friends in the business, man. Like it's a huge deal. So people that you trust that, you know, and that you have a good relationship with, it's I think it's so important for, for, you know, and that will kind of get you that energy to keep going. Yeah, I agree, man. And it's, I mean, people don't know this about me, but like one of the reasons why I love doing this sort of stuff, talking to you. And I mean, I talked to coach, I talked to people that I've never met in my life every single day on zoom. And one of the big reasons why I do that is to not be isolated, because it's so easy to be isolated when you have your own business, because you're constantly thinking about, you know, what if this happens, you know, is this working? And yeah, your spot on that, like talking to people can can make a big difference, even if this is a short conversation. But that's one of the reasons why, you know, my that's one of my goals is to talk to three to five new people per day, Monday through Friday, and I get so much insight. And I've learned a lot through the people that I speak with and gives me a lot of confidence to with the stuff that I'm doing, because, because I know that, you know, what we're doing with our companies is it's it is helping a lot of people at this point. But like, it can be so isolating having your own business and thinking through those thoughts every single day. And that's why, you know, being around other people in the area too. And one thing I'm actually about to do is like, and they have this in every city, but you can join like the Chamber of Commerce, you know, those. And that puts you in front of all of the other business owners in your immediate area. And I had a conversation with a coach about this yesterday, but like, the amount of connections that you can make from that are amazing, because like, you can look at, in your example, you could look at other personal trainers that are in the area that work with kids, like they might have kids that they work with for like, you know, weightlifting or speed and agility training that could be a perfect fit for you. Like people in real estate or they know thousands of people in the area, like there's so many little things that you can do when you're around people locally. That's something I'm going to be doing, even though everything I do is online right now, like I'm trying to surround myself around other people in the local area to learn, get ideas and be inspired by what they're doing, because like, that can be so helpful. That's awesome. That is a big time. Awesome. Well, dude, thank you for jumping on here. And I'm excited to get this on YouTube. And I will, I'll be posting that probably in the next week or so. Sounds good, Ben. Much appreciated. Thank you. Yeah, awesome. Before we go, where can people find you? What's your Instagram username? Instagram is at Vin Balvinani. Okay. And then that last name is kind of tough for some people. So there's two n's in there. But yeah, and then I have a website. I got a short knit though, but it's called, it's riseskilldevelopment.com. My wife is trying to convince me to kind of acronym that thing. Yeah, that's where you can kind of find me. So yeah, I just got on the other platforms too, like Facebook and TikTok and all that stuff. So yeah, I don't really, I just get on there, throw something on there and then leave, you know, word about kind of where I'm at. Right. Yeah. I'm the same way, man. Social media can be the biggest time suck in the world. I will follow some people that I kind of like, I'm growing to like really respect their content and then I'll just see what they're doing and then I'll get some inspiration. So I think it's helpful too at times. So yeah, absolutely. Cool, man. Yeah, I'll post that below our video. And thanks so much for jumping on here. And I appreciate you spending the last hour with me here. It means a lot. Absolutely. Yeah. Thank you so much. Take care.