 Aloha, I'm Tim Apachele and this is Moving Hawaii Forward. Today's title is Everything You Wanted to Know About Honolulu Traffic, but we're afraid to ask. And with me today is Jay Fidel, our guest and transportation observer as your official title for today. Jay, thank you very much and welcome to you. Thank you, Tim. Nice to be here with you. Yeah, I appreciate it. You're coming. Glad you do this show. Thank you. I've been teaching a lot of difficult topics about traffic and transportation and we're getting some pretty good answers, but we have a long way to go. So Jay, you've been here for a long time. You've been down in Honolulu. You had your business down there in downtown CBD of Honolulu and you've seen things change over the years, presumably more traffic. Can you describe how the impact of increased traffic has affected your life personally and that of your employees and just things in general? A couple of thoughts on that. Back in the day, and we're talking about the early 70s, we would pile in a car at lunch, my law firm, just three or four or five of us, and we'd ride to Kaimo Key for lunch. And we'd have plenty of time to spare to get back in an hour, maybe an hour and a quarter. The firm wouldn't give us much more time than that. And we're able to do that nearly every day. We'd go somewhere distant from downtown for lunch. Try that now, Tim. No way, Jose. I mean, it's just a small metric, but you can't get around. You'll get stuck in a traffic jam no matter what. And sometimes I call it a flash jam. A flash jam is, you know, you can't prepare against it. It happens all by itself. It happens for reasons nobody understands, and all of a sudden, bang, you're in the traffic jam. Was that from like 11 to one, or is it just used to be just any time during that? It could be any time. And, you know, I used to think when Mufi Hanuman was, you know, pushing for rail or pushing is an understatement word, you know, that he was thinking about this. He was thinking about me sitting in traffic with a flash jam, me smoking out of both ears, me wasting my time, hours and hours in a week, and he was going to do something. But actually he did nothing about it. And the question is whether we are prepared as a community to do anything about it. Well, I'm glad you mentioned that, because, you know, here we are, depending on what organization you look at to see how Honolulu is rated as far as the worst traffic. Right now you could look at the Texas A&M Transportation Institute that puts us around 11. There's an index called the INRICS, the 2015 puts Honolulu down at number 10 for the worst, US Today puts Honolulu down at sixth worst in the country, and Tom Tom puts Honolulu at the third worst. So how did we get here? Well, I'll tell you, you know, the question is a good question. First we have too many cars on an island. If you go to, what is it, Bermuda? You know, no cars, motor scooters, bicycles. No cars. I'm not saying we should do that here, but we should certainly limit the cars. We have, you know, something more than one car per capita, you know, who lives here. We have an enormous number of cars here. We keep selling them, and we don't, we take care of them. We don't retire them. So they're still all on the road, and the result is that everybody's driving one person in the car. Over the years, talk about a historical perspective, over the years there have been dozens of efforts to try to ameliorate that. But it all been dropped. They don't exist anymore, really. What efforts do you think specifically? Well, I mean, you know, staggered work hours, the state was going to stagger work hours, the Fed was going to stagger work hours. They're going to have all these special lane arrangements. Didn't work. They were going to incentivize, you know, multiple passengers. I think they might have that now for the fast lane, but I'm not sure it really works. Linda Lingle had an interesting idea of an overpass. That was going to cost too much money. And, you know, the HOV lane, the one that computerized fares, the computerized, what do you call it, highway charges, toll charges. Hot lanes they call them. Hot lanes on the freeway. You know, that would have been good, but we're not going to do that. I don't see any. We're going to talk about that a little bit later in the show, because a lot of cities are starting to look at that very thing. You're using the computer, using modern technology. So what you have is too many cars on the road, and the roads haven't kept up. We haven't rebuilt the infrastructure. Some of our roads really need to be, you know, there's one traffic circle up on Camoku Street in the whole state, one traffic circle in Europe. There's traffic circles everywhere. It helps. Why? Because you don't sit there doing nothing waiting for a light. Now, there's other high-tech ways to deal with that, you know, like you could censor the cross-traffic. And if there is no cross-traffic, we'll change the light. We're going to sit there for three minutes while the traffic stacks up. Panaral's Pervoduros had dozens of ideas, and we did some shows with him where we go from intersection to intersection, which is what you've got to do. You know, it's one by one. You stand there. You analyze it. You act like a traffic engineer. And you say, well, we're going to fix this intersection this way and this intersection that way. And he had lots of ideas. But nobody adopted it, because I guess that was in the Mufi day. Mufi didn't want to, in my opinion, didn't want to fix the traffic. He wanted everybody to figure that the rail was going to solve the traffic, which is a ridiculous solution. That's that silver bullet approach. And we know that a silver bullet approach does not work. And rail seems to be. We all know that. Politicians think. Then why do we rely on it if we don't want it? Well, I think it was, you know, it's sexy to say it. It's sexy to believe it. But it's not reality. It's that silver buckshot approach that actually is going to be part of the solution to our transportation problems. But let's look at the front end of all this. You're talking about officially trying to move cars in and out of intersections, or there's just too many SOVs and it's taking up too much space on the roadway. But how are those cars getting there? Let's look at land planning. Let's look at land. Well, look at the television. Look at the television. Every three minutes there's a car ad. You know, and the culture, when I arrived in this place, which was September 1965, I couldn't believe it. You know, it came from New York. They had checker cabs. You could buy a checker cab for like $2,000 cheap. And Neil Apagrame had a checker cab. Is that right? That was his thing. Anyway, you arrived here, and it's not a checker cab. It's not a small car. It's not a foreign car. I mean, a Volkswagen or anything else. No, it's a huge, you know, fintail Cadillac. Yeah, it looks like a 1956 Chev. Cadillac. And you're sitting there in a Cadillac. And I say, really, this is totally inefficient. Why are we doing this? Well, because Hawaii had and has, and will continue to have, a love affair with cars. Everybody loves cars. They won't have as many cars as they can. Some people have three cars, you know, or four. It's unbelievable, and we do not do anything to restrict it. That is not a constitutional issue. We could restrict the number of cars per family, per household, per registrant, but we don't do that. Bottom line is it's too many cars. The cars are increasing, not decreasing. The roads are static, and they're not being fixed or redesigned in any way. The intersections are not being fixed or redesigned in any way. So it's glut, and, you know, no surprise that we are one of the worst congested areas in the country, because we don't do anything about it. We are not keeping up. Well, not only do we not do anything about it, we make the problem worse. And let me throw a couple of numbers out here. Well, you're looking at development on ever playing. Now, the idea as well, we'll build all these homes out here, and they'll all go to work down in Kapolei. Right? That's the thinking. That's the theory. Well, we know that's not true. People are buying out in the ever playing, and they're saying, I still need to come in the downtown on a Lulu, because that's where my employer is. Yes, it's more affordable for me to buy, you know, the American dream out on ever playing versus in Manoa or something like that. So it's that urban, you know, suburban sprawl at its worst. And then we compound it by the following. Coa Ridge approved now for 3,500 homes. I might get to pronounce you on this pronunciation, pronunciation on this wrong. Hoop-a-peely? Hoop-a-peely. Hoop-a-peely. 11,750 homes between ever and Kapolei. Now, we're converting vital, precious, A.G. land. We're gonna pave it over, and we're putting houses on it. The infrastructure of these roads, is there no way it's gonna have that kind of volume. But they got the permits. How did they get the permits? Well, the developer said, oh, we're gonna create 7,500 jobs in Kapolei, and they won't need their cars. And if those people who do need their cars that go into downtown Honolulu, well, guess what, they'll take that rail. Well, this is false thinking. One, the rail's not gonna be there in time. And number two is that, you know, they're calculating a percentage of people that are gonna take that rail, which may or may not work at all. No doubt it will work. So why are we encouraging the conversion of precious A.G. land? And we're, you know, it's the old building, and they will come. So the rail's been a mechanism for the developers to develop land. They couldn't previously develop because it was A.G. land. But now, it's an opportunity for them, and it's working quite well. So now where you have this suburban sprawl, it's going from the east side, and it's now affecting anything between ever and Honolulu. It's not any different than LA or Washington, D.C., or Seattle, San Francisco, where you're out, and you've been pushed out, and people still need to come in. There's no guarantee that people are gonna find employment in Kapolei and not need their vehicle. So I think that's really getting to the root of this problem, and as long as there's available land, A.G. land, to pave over and develop, we're gonna see it get worse, worse, and worse. Now, you know, the population projections here, and by the year 2020, just for Oahu alone, we're looking at 67,000 people. Who made that projection? This is state projections. 2025, we're looking at 94,000. Right now, we have about 976,000 people here in Oahu. 1.4 in the state, million. So you had another 95,000 people by the year 2025. Where are they gonna go? Well, they're probably gonna go out and they have a plain area. Well, you know, some structural mistakes, huge structural mistakes here. However it got started, this notion of a second city was flawed and is flawed. That's the first thing. The second thing, I mean, you know, Neil Abercrombie in the middle of a rail project that began in Kapolei, instead of beginning downtown, it should have begun in downtown. That would have been really much, much smarter. Don't know why they did that. Maybe movie thought that, you know, that he would have less political opposition if he started out where nobody lived instead of starting where people lived. But that was wrong, that was wrong. And look, the price we're gonna pay. Anyway, Neil Abercrombie said, we gotta build up, okay? Because we have a population that exceeds our space. Forget about existing housing, it just exceeds our space. And I think that's right. So we're building up in a place where there is no transportation, okay? And we're building out flat, you know, in a place that's gotta come in. So both of those are kind of mistakes. We should be building up in the city core. If you look, this is not really, well, I guess it's all connected. Transportation's connected to everything. If you look at the Commonwealth, the English Commonwealth, the British Commonwealth, you know, in Canada, the classical city has a core downtown. It has a residential belt of, you know, going up kind of buildings. It has a green belt, and then it has a single family belt. Beyond that, it's reserve. City is very organized in concentric circles. Come to find that model is in a lot of Commonwealth countries. In New Zealand, in Australia, you know, Adelaide, for example, looks a lot like Calgary, Alberta. And this is a very good thing. And somehow the British, you know, bureaucracy, whatever it was, at the time this culture was being developed in the Commonwealth, it did the right thing. We have done the wrong thing, and the problem is you can't fix it. You know, any building has a useful life of at least hundreds of years, maybe, you know, many hundreds of years, condos a long time. So, you know, what we needed to do was build up in the center, that's what you do, and then build flat, you know, in concentric circles, and then move the transportation in so to connect everything up. I don't think we did that. The second city was really, that's not gonna happen. I want to talk about Kakaoka when we come back from this commercial break, but we're gonna take a break. I'm Tim Appichella, I'm here with Jay Fiedel, and we're talking about transportation issues, traffic questions, and we'll be right back. This is Hawaii Moving Forward, be right back. Thanks. Ah, how you doing? I'm Gordon with the Tech Tsar. Here on Think Tech Hawaii, where we co-host Hibachi Talk, where we talk about technology and bring in all kinds of cool guests. Also, my co-host with me today is Andrew. Andrew, the security guy. Thanks for watching. Thanks for watching Think Tech Hawaii, and thanks for watching Hibachi Talk. We also have Angus. How do you know that in Latin? There's Angus, I bring in all kinds of wee things. Oh, look, you can see my lips moving. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Welcome back. I'm Tim Appichella. I'm your host for Moving Hawaii Forward. I'm here with Jay Fiedel, transportation observer. Jay, thanks again for joining us. Let me add a point to what I was saying before, Tim. And that is, yes, the population has increased dramatically, and the population may continue to increase. That's a big F, because if this place gets so crowded that the quality of life rockets down, then people are gonna leave. I think some people are leaving. I think we could have a negative in migration pretty easily because we've got all these problems. We've got problems in the environment. We've got problems in transportation. We have problems in every aspect of the economy. So anyway, it's the tourists that we don't want to leave because they're bread and butter here. If they leave, the jobs go, and if the jobs go, people are gonna go to the mainland. I mean, a lot of people do that already. There's a huge contingent of Hawaii people, for example, in Las Vegas. That's the third city. Yeah. So anyway, my point that I'd like to make here is that if the population changes, if the circumstances change, if somebody decides they wanna build Kapolei, whatever it is, some developer gets a permit, whatever it is, you have to conform the transportation. The transportation serves the community. Now, some would say no, the community serves the transportation. You build it and they will come. I don't really agree with that. But arguably that's happened in all the places. You build a freeway, or you build a railway, and then there's TOD around side. Well, they're using the rail line in Kapolei as a basis to get the permits to build. Yeah, okay. But if you have changes, whatever they are, whatever the changes are, you have to conform the transportation to the changes. So if we have more people living out there, we have to have a way to do that. And all these years, we really didn't do it. We didn't do rail when we might have done it cheaper. And we didn't fix the freeway. The freeway is pretty much the same today going out there as it was 20 years ago. Why don't we change that? The population has changed. The whole, you know, demograph has changed. Why don't we change as the way to get there? You know, one more point and I'll stop. And that is transportation is the circulation system of the economy, of the community. And if we can't get around, our community is at a disadvantage. And it affects the economy of the community if we can't go from point A to point B. I mean, technology can only help you so much. After a while, you have to actually go from point A to point B. If you can't do that, the economy suffers and the society suffers. Well, the society suffers as far as increased stress and dismay about not being able to move, you know, you and your family and your goods and services if you're a business. And so everything suffers, not just the economy, mental economy, I think, what suffers. I want to talk about Kaka'aka because this is this concept of, it's a planned community and it was based on densities. And, well, they, they, they, It's a planned community. Yeah, I'm going to use that term. I'll have a lot of trouble with that. Well, it's the urban village concept, of course, what they all pine for and, and they still are. I mean, I, I had Mark Guirati from TTS and they believe that this community is going to be self-sufficient on the transportation. People aren't going to use their cars at all. That's the dream and hope. Well, I got big news for them. Everyone's going to have a car. They have garage spaces and all those 4,000 condos that are being put online. The units, and at least they're going to have one space for one car and they're going to be using them. So my point is this, when I spoke with Mark, and again, Mark was very gracious. He was nice to come on and he does believe in this urban village concept, but it's a slightly not quite accurate because people still want to get out of Kaka'aka. They're still going to want to get into Kaka'aka. And I'm sorry, but Alamoana and Nimitz are, are packed beyond belief. And now you put 4,000 units on that infrastructure, on that roadway, and it's just going to go from bad to worse. It's already bad. It's going to go to worse. So I asked the question. I said, well, what is the likelihood of putting in a segregated rapid transit line where you have frequencies every 12 minutes? You know, and it's completely not going to be intermixed with general purpose lane? Well, you didn't think that was going to be possible. That wasn't going to be part of it because in Kaka'aka, no one needs to have used their car. They're going to walk. They're going to bike. They're going to use all the amenities within their urban village. And there'll be no need for, for a rapid transit line along Alamoana and Nimitz. I think that's wrong thinking. Some of them, that's probably true because they're going to be from China. They're going to be from Japan. They're going to be from Europe. And they're going to come every so often. They're not going to live here. So that's fine. If you have nice shops and all that, and restaurants down there, you can live in a little tight, tight area and take the car out on Sundays for a Sunday drive. They're not part, however, of the ebb and flow of our community. They're not acting like people, you know, from other parts of the, if the people, you know, in other parts of our community could move into Kaka'aka, I mean, could afford moving and spending two, three million dollars for a condo, you know, they would do exactly what you say. They would be driving hither and yonder, and they would be very frustrated about not being able to get around. The other thing is, in planned community, I don't think it's planned. If it was planned, somebody would say- The chances of these were planned. Yeah, but if somebody would say, you know, when I add 20,000 or 30,000, whatever it is, condo units, then maybe don't you think we should change the street pattern? Actually change, but they didn't do that. The streets are exactly the same. As a matter of fact, you know, there are no traffic lights in Kaka'aka. But the intersection of, oh, what is it? Cook Street and Awahi Street. You know, Ground Zero in Kaka'aka. There's still no traffic light. And, you know, this courtesy thing where you stop at the stop sign and wait, you know, like 10 cars are waiting. And I wrote a couple of articles in the newspaper about this, but there's no traffic light there. When exactly, you know, they're gonna put dollar one into traffic infrastructure. I mean, what we got here is talk. And one of the problems is this jurisdictional conflict because you talked to, you know, I mean Garrett, what's his name? Garrity? Mark. Mark Garrity. Mark Garrity. From the city, but you know, that's the city. The city has the rail, I suppose. But the state is the one through HCDA that controls, you know, the area. And so you wanna talk about, you know, rededicating streets and, you know, modernizing the streets to conform with the growth patterns and the building permits. You know, we got one agency is issuing the building permits and the other agency is doing the streets. Do they talk? Doesn't look like it because they should have been changing these roads five years ago or 10. Yeah. I mean, Kakaako is gonna turn out to be just what we thought, a mess. Well, you have condos going on right now. You have the symphony. You have 400 Kyave Place, I think it's called. And, you know, the collection is now online. So they're coming online right now. And your point is well made that the infrastructure is not there. Well, if you don't, you know, change the roadway and you build right up to the lot line, okay. How can you change the roadway later? It's not going to. Never. Yeah. Because as I said, these condos in the life of hundreds of years, you can't move it. You can't take it down. You're stuck. And so I think we're stuck. The idea about building up is a good idea. But if you're going to build up, you have to build up smart. We have not done that. And I think we're going to pay an awful price. Well, I think, you know, I think they've done what they've done. Now you have to make the best of it. And for me, what I believe is that you're going to have to dedicate a transit only. I don't care if you call it a circulator or a tramway or a BRT bus rapid transit, but you need something to get from point A to point C in 10-minute frequencies that people are going to want to get in and out of that part of town. Well, it's a sore point. You know, a lot of millennials take the bus. As a matter of principle, they take the bus. And they like the bus. And they hope that the bus will be ubiquitous, that you can go anywhere in the bus. And indeed, if you have a linear rail, you need to get, you know, vertical to that. You need to go up the hill, up Sierra Drive, where are you going? So you take it, you know, to point A, to stop A, take the bus. We need to have a really terrific bus system. Now, our bus system has been good enough. But my view is that money that could have been spent in making the bus system world-class has been spent instead on rail. Yeah, it's been diverted. Now diverted may not be the right word because you can't, you know, you can't say diverted if it was never intended for the bus, right? But the point is, if you have so much money in the pot and you can achieve so much cash, so much spending money, then, you know, you could put it in rail, you could put it in the bus. We haven't put enough in the bus. Yeah, well, we get down to semantic sometimes. And when you say bus, that means transit. But guess what also means transit? Rail. So in the transportation planners world, transit means both. I agree. And that's the problem. They gotta be connected. They gotta be running at the, you know, improving themselves at the same time. The streets have to be improving. You know, and of course, we didn't talk about this yet, but, you know, the way you pave, you know, determines how long the pavement lasts. If you put a quarter inch of a macadamac, you know, paving material on that street, next big rainstorm is gonna start to slough off. If you put the proper amount, which would be two or three or five inches, I shouldn't say two, more like five or six, then that's gonna last a while. And what happens traditionally here is the government waits for enough complaints and then they go out and make a big show of, you know, of repaving the streets. Everybody says, oh, that's good. They're repaving the streets, but they're repaving it to last for a year. This is not the way to do it. This is not the way it's done responsibly on the mainland either. So we, you know, our roads are still potholes. Have you noticed? They have. Big ones. Even though we had the outside contract that did a great job fixing a lot of them, we seem to be backtracking now. It's the specs, Tim. The specs don't call for a thick repair. And we're gonna, as long as we repave at little tiny, you know, layers, we're gonna have the problem. Yeah, my friend suspension can agree with that. Yeah. I wanna talk about what ifs. What if it gets so bad? Do we go down that road where other jurisdictions are now looking at LA, Seattle, San Francisco, things that have already been implemented in Europe and in Singapore, and that's known as congestion pricing, which is to say, if you wanna get downtown and you wanna come in your vehicle, you're gonna pay a price for that. Of course. The answer is yes. Singapore is a good example. The answer is yes. You know, you can control the traffic by economics, by charging people or not, by giving them incentives that are running cash. And it's all automated in Singapore also. You know, you pass a certain point and as the sensor reads your windshield, the sticker on your windshield, you get a bill at the end of the month. That's the way we should do it here. So in my conclusion here, in the last minutes of your show, let me offer this thought. You know, yes, it is what it is. Yes, the growth and the building permits and the development, they are what they are. Kapolei is a second city, successful or not, is what it is. The freeways, unimproved, you know, they are what they are, and the unpaid roads are what they are and the lack of sidewalks and bike lanes, it is what it is. But what we should focus on, and I think the city does have some talent on this, and I think maybe one of these days that will happen is technology. There are so many ways that technology has been used in other cities to improve the congestion. In Europe a lot, in England, interestingly enough, a lot, and some mainland cities a lot. We have to use, embrace, adopt, and pay for, and use local talent to help us build it. Build it, you know, in local style. We can do this if we just simply focus on the technology. The rest will follow. You brought that up early in the conversation about intersections. Specifically, you know, they're allegedly bringing in a demo, and the cost of this demo is gonna be anywhere from $27,000 to $45,000 per intersection, but it's money well spent. I agree. And what is it? It's, I don't know how simple the technology is, but it's basically gonna count the cars on the side on the ancillary streets, and when they get to a certain number, they send a signal automatically to the signal light, and things are moving that way, versus a timed light. It is a technology that's going to turn the light a different color based on the actual counts that are queuing up on the side streets. It's a combination. We're there. You have to have both. You have to sense the cross-traffic. You also have to have timed lights. And it's an algorithm that you and I, we sat in a room for a few hours. We could figure it out. And some kiddie university. You could figure it out. University, you know, University of Manoa, you know, they could do that too. The problem is, right, you have legacy traffic lights all over town that are mechanical. This is what was explained to me a few days ago. They're mechanical, and it's very hard to take this high technology, which deals in a little chip, you know, and lightning fast impulses and all that, and convert those conclusions and that controlling device to an old-fashioned mechanical light. So scrap the old system. The scrap it. You got to do that. And I take your point about it is worth every penny. Every penny it is worth. Yep. Let's scrap the whole thing. Well, before we conclude today's show, I do want to talk about what political viability do you think it would take to have this congestive pricing? In Seattle, they call it hot lanes, which is to say you use the HLV lanes, but if you want to get into the CBD and use that HLV lanes, you put a little transponder on your windshield and you pay a monthly fee for that, for the right for a single occupancy vehicle person to ride in that HLV lane. That almost seems like the leadest commuting, if you will. It's a no-brainer, I think. Tell me why. Because it controls the traffic. We don't control the traffic. We have to control it. We have to be proactive and preemptive and use, as I said, use the technology. That is one great way to do it. But if that HLV lane is meant for two, three, four people, by the way, two people in an HLV lane is probably not enough given our traffic. It probably should be bumped up to three. Yeah. That's the way it started. That's the way it started and what happened was the lanes were being unused and people were calling into the city to the state going, why am I sitting here bumper-to-bumper traffic and these HLV lanes are just no one's using them? But you're not concerned? So then they dropped it down to two. We may be getting to the point where you have to increase it to three. And you can read the number of people in the car unless they want to duck below the seat. Some of them are alive and some of them are mannequins, so I'm not going to go down that road. I'm not going to go down that road. Yeah, stop not. But the bottom line is why would we want to convert something that's designed for HLV for three person or more and allow a single person just because that he or she may have the financial influence to pay for that sort of thing? No, we shouldn't. Okay. There has to be an algorithm that works for everybody. And as I say, you put me in a room, we'll argue it, we'll consider all the factors. We'll give seniority for people who are older, maybe. I don't know. And we'll look at the age of your car. If you have an old rotten car that, you know, that may play in it. In Singapore, you have to give up your car after a certain number of years. You can't keep it or they charge outland you some amount. So I mean, this is a way you can see that we can play so many elements together to control the traffic, the drivers, the people using the highway. And it would be brilliant to do that. We're not doing it just yet. Well, I don't think people are coming together and I don't think there's enough people from different levels of experience in the community and in our institutions and our agencies. We're not getting a cross-section of what's going to work and what's not going to work. Well, I think people have this kind of zen thing. You know, if God meant that we should have an easy way to drive down the highway and no traffic, then He would have solved it. But He hasn't and so we live in this and we tolerate it, Hawaii style. We tolerate the worst things and we don't say boo about it. People got excited about it and some day they may because we're going to have gridlock coming soon, then maybe they'll say something that will become a political issue. But it isn't a political issue really. Rail is a political issue probably because of the money and the fact that newspaper stirs it up all the time to sell papers. But the reality is the transportation, your show, what you cover, not a political issue. And your job, Tim, is to make it a political issue. Working on it, Jay, since you brought God into it. God and traffic. That's the thought I'm going to leave you guys with today. So I want to say thank you very much for joining us. I'm Tim Apachele here with Jay Fidel. Traffic opinionator. And thank you again for coming this show. This is Moving Hawaii Forward. I'm Tim Apachele. We'll see you next week.