 So Dr. Wang, please tell us about your country. Thank you. Well, I was asked by Mr. Moderators to introduce my country in two minutes. I find it's a mission impossible, so I give you one sentence about Taiwan. So what is Taiwan? I would say that it is so-called the Oriental Switzerland. So if you know something about Switzerland, you already know something about Taiwan. Well, we have about the same size in terms of geography. In your case, in Switzerland, you have 40,000 square kilometers. We have 36,000 square kilometers. And in terms of landscape, three-fifths of the islands in Taiwan are occupied by high mountains. And of course, the three-fifths of your land is occupied by high mountains. And it's also very interesting that our GDP total is about the same size in 2021, except one thing is we are an island, you are an inland, but you are surrounded by many, many strong countries. So pretty much about the island anyway. Well, enough about Taiwan. Let me start by expressing my gratitude to the Swiss MedTech for inviting Taiwan as a guest country this year to share our experience about the digital health technology. Switzerland is one of the leading countries in medical technology, and Swiss MedTech days attract many top medical industries, and especially from different countries every year. I'm very proud that Taiwan is part of such incredible events. You know, Taiwan is also well-known in ICD manufacturing hubs. As you know that roughly about half of our chips is made in Taiwan, and 92% of the most advanced chips are made in Taiwan. That scared a lot of people, including the United States and China. Well, Taiwan also has a very generous and equitable universal healthcare systems. Major Taiwan hospitals are working with the ICD company to improve healthcare through the digitalization. The digital technology is extremely important to the post-pandemic recovery, and we wish to have international cooperation with countries who share the same democratic and liberal values. Switzerland is of course one of our priorities to work with. Now I have the pleasure to announce the Taiwan Digital Ministers Audrey Tan, who will be the keynote speaker today. I am sure many of you are aware of her. She represents Taiwan government to sign the declaration for the future of the Internet in April this year. Together with the United States, Australia, Canada, Japan, UK, and the EU and other countries in the world, we committed to build an Internet environment where economic and social development is encouraged. Later, our speakers in the deep divide sessions include Dr. Lee Wei Chang, the Deputy Superintendent of Taipei Venture and General Hospitals, Dr. Joe Yeh, the CEO of the Asia-leading medical image of AI companies, Dr. Grace Yeh, the war lawyer of the Industrial Technology Research Institute and Dr. Linus Gauss of the President of the Europe-Taiwan Biotech Association. They are all top specialists from Taiwan, and I'm sure their speech will impress you about Taiwan's digital policy and cutting-edge technologies. Let's but another list. I wish to take this opportunity to appear for your support for Taiwan's participation in the World Health Organization. Taiwan is highly capable, engaged, and responsible member of the global health community. Taiwan would like to contribute more to improve global healthcare systems. Please give us a chance to prove Taiwan can help. I wish today's events a great success, and thank you very much. Thank you. Ambassador David Wang, thank you very much. Thank you, Dr. Wang. And now I'd like to introduce my co-moderator for this session, which is Dr. Sang Il Kim. He's an MD and PhD. He's since recently at the Byrne University of Applied Sciences. Initially, he's a radiologist, studied in Hamburg, spent several years with Siemens, E-Health Swiss Post. He was also in the middle of the perfect storm of the digital transformation of the Swiss Federal Office of Public Health, BRG. His division had the task of setting up the electronic patient record in Switzerland. He was responsible for the management of the COVID pandemic, so he's not choosing the easy topics, Dr. Kim. And with our technical capabilities of today, even though there's four hours time difference, Dr. Kim will now have an interview with the digital minister of Taiwan, Audrey Tang. Welcome, Dr. Kim. Thanks, Heiko, for the kind introduction. And thank you, Dr. Wang, for the short insights of Taiwan. And I also hope that maybe this year could be the starting point for more cooperation between Switzerland and Taiwan in terms of medtech and maybe health IT as well. So I'm very, very pleased that I can have here a virtual interview with the digital minister of Taiwan, Ms. Audrey Tang. And of course, we hope that we get some ideas of their visions in Taiwan, their achievements, challenges, and also the obstacles they have introducing digital means to the health care area or to the society in general. So I hope she's already online. Oh, yeah. I tried, like you. Sorry. I know that you are a techie, a trekkie. Yeah. Welcome. Really thank you that you are here with us. And it's really a big honor to have this interview with you. And she's the digital minister since 2016. And she shall help government agencies to communicate policy goals and managing information published by the government. So it's major topic is the communication between, you know, the governmental side and also the public side. And both with digital means. And she was the youngest minister in Taiwan without a portfolio. I was really astonished without a portfolio. So you could do everything what you wanted, right. And so she has given the role to bridge the gap. I think this is really interesting to bridge the gap between the older and the younger generation. And I think this is one of your everyday business today. To be honest, while preparing this interview, I have seen some interviews on the internet. And yeah, and I can say I have become a fan of you. To be honest, I really was impressed by your clear thoughts and your very intrinsic motivation. I feel to help all the people. That means really all young, old men, women, everyone to use the digital means for a better life and also for a better environment. For example, also democracy. You stated once, saving democracy with digital technology. And maybe we can hear about that something more. But to give you the word about your life, there are a lot of anecdotes about you. And I had, yeah, I heard that about your quitting schools. And maybe you can tell us why you quit schools at which age. Hello, really happy to be here. I quit school when I was 14 on the second year of middle high. But I did so with the full blessing from the head of my school. I discovered at a time that all the researchers are on this new thing called the World Web in 1995. And I discovered this website called Archive ARXIV where people publish their preprints for peer review before going to journals. And I write them, but people didn't know across the internet I was just 14. So I was treated as a peer among researchers. So I told the head of my school, you know, if I can do research, I don't really want to stay in the school because research is 10 years ahead of what I read in the school books. And then all my teachers and the head of school agreed. Actually, the principal said, yeah, it seems like really exciting. So just go for it. And you don't have to go to my school anymore. That is when I started self-education and then started quite a few startups on web technologies shortly afterwards. Oh, thank you very much for this history of backside. Yeah, I think this shows also that you are doing things where you really believe in. And we hope also that we can learn a little bit about you, from you and also from Taiwan regards to the digitization of society and especially here, digitization of the healthcare system. Well, to be honest, I was also astonished when I read the whole Taiwan has a digital ministry. I thought, well, in Switzerland, I don't know if we have a digital ministry. Not yet, I think, then I grabbed a little bit and I realized also Japan has a digital ministry. And since this year also Germany, our big neighbor has also a digital ministry. And maybe this could be a key point for the digitization of society to have someone responsible for that. Do you feel responsible for digitization of Taiwan? In Taiwan, the word digital shuwei also means plural, like more than one, numerous. They share the same root numbers. And so to me, to quote Dr. Tsai Ing-wen, our president in her first inauguration speech, she said, before we think of democracy as showdown between two opposing values, but from now on democracy must become a collaboration between diversity of values. So plurality, collaboration across diversity, that is what shuwei, what plural or digital means in Taiwan. So I feel responsible to build common ground out of very different positions and deliver innovations based on those common grounds. Very interesting. So I'm also one of the experts for semantic interoperability. And when I see and hear what you understand with the term digital, well, here I think it's the opposite. We only see zero and one and that's it. Not plurality, so very interesting. Okay, can you tell us maybe what was the reason that the Taiwanese government established such kind of ministry for digital affairs? Just like our ministry of foreign affairs, the Mouda, our ministry of digital affairs, is a breach toward the cyberspace. We realize that the cyberspace already has certain norms, internet norms. But we also realize that on the threats of the pandemic or of the infodemic, which is the word that the WHO used for this information crisis during pandemic times, there are many norms that are being pushed backward. Many democracies in our region especially feel threatened so much so that they want to do some takedowns of the internet, want to do some fragmentation of the internet or just like they do lockdowns to counter the pandemic. Now, maybe lockdowns are unavoidable if you have widespread community transmission before your hospital is ready for it. But in Taiwan for the past couple years and a half, we've never had a single day of lockdown, yet we managed to have net zero excess death with regard to COVID. And we managed to have zero takedowns for administration instead relying on humor to combat against rumor and the public notice instead of takedown against this information. So the Ministry of Digital Affairs wants to be like the Ministry of Foreign Affairs a bridge to advocate this model, the Taiwan model of democracy toward emerging threats on the cyberspace so that cyberspace continues to be a vehicle of liberal democracy or social democracy instead of just bumping into authoritarianism or chaos. Thank you. That means social democracy needs a digital society? Is it like that? Yes. I mean two things. First, as you said, to introduce digital to improve our democracy. That's one, that's domestic. But also to democratize the digital spaces that we are in. For example, in Taiwan, if you step into a public park or a town hall and so on, there's a very democratic space. We have referendum like you do. We have public deliberation like you do. But if you go to say Facebook, then you go into authoritarian regime and ownership more than 51% is controlled by one person. So basically the democratization, the deliberation, everything is gone when you have the conversation there. But in many jurisdictions, people don't have a digital infrastructure for public discourse. So they're forced to use Facebook for that purpose and therefore go on a backslide when it comes to democratization to further instead say polarization. So democratization of digital spaces is as important as the digitalization of domestic democracy. Okay, thank you. Coming to the term digital society, well for all of us as part of society, I think the health status is one of the key points for everybody all over the world. Is it right that also this healthcare environment is part of your work in this digital ministry? And yes, what exactly are you doing or supporting or helping in this context? Yes, a couple of things. First, we have this idea of collective intelligence. This is part of our three pillars of social innovation, fast, fair and fun. Instead of Facebook, in Taiwan we have our own civic infrastructure like this one, the PTT, that allows people to report around the turn of 2020 on the last day of 2019 that there's SARS cases reported from Wuhan. In many other social media that are more anti-social, this news just got flooded by other news. But in Taiwan's pro-social platforms that is part of our digital affairs concern, people triaged this news very quickly, resulting in health inspections on the first day of 2020 because we were contributed to the collective intelligence instead of being pulled away. The other thing that the digital ministry is interested in is to help the people who are not that used to online forums. Even though broadband is a human right in Taiwan, there are still very young people or very old people prefer to call this toll-free line number 1922 where they meet someone with a lot of empathy, listen to their cases, their concerns, like in April 2020 a young boy called saying, you're rationing your mask, I got pink ones. I don't want to wear pink to school, I'm a boy. Then very next day on the 2 p.m. press conference, all the medical officers wore pink and the ministry chair said, pink panther is my childhood hero and all the fashion brands turn pink and so on. So this is not just about biological, physical health, this is about mental health, about turning something that could be bullying or things like that into something that is human-driven and that takes the edge away. Okay, you told us that you have some means to report things so that the health authorities and also you can benefit from this information. To be honest, in the corona crisis, we also had several apps for that, but the people didn't use it. How do you manage that the Taiwanese people are using this kind of information technology to make these reports for better surveillance? Yeah, so it's about fast, fair and fun. We already had a lot of fun before the pandemic using the same architecture to report this information online. We have this line bot, it's like WhatsApp, developed not by the government, by the civil society, civic tech, called co-facts, collaborative fact-checking, so that people can report what rumors are trending and people share this dashboard of the most viral dashboard of this information or misinformation. So people just like reporting spam, but there is an element of competition there because people want to debunk this information as quickly as possible to win some points in their peer-based gamification. And the most active dispelling of this information are then vetted by professional journalists on the third-party fact-checking network like the Taiwan fact-checking Sansa. And once they're vetted by the journalists, the participation officer, the people in charge of engaging the public in each ministry, rose out this hilarious debunking packages that are even more viral than this information. Before the pandemic, this is an example that people reported the trending virus was the state will fund you $1 million for perming your hair many times a week. Now, after just two hours, this picture gets posted by the head of cabinet, our premier, Su Zhenchang, that says, it's not true. It quotes the mRNA of the virus. It's not true. Then the spike protein that says, I may be bald now, but I will not punish people who look like my youth. And a fine print that says, we've introduced a labeling requirement for hair products. But then on the bottom, you see, our premier looks now with no hair, with a hair blower saying, if you perm your hair many times a week, it will not damage your bank account, but it will damage your hair. Your hairstyle will match my hairstyle. This is hilarious. And it reached far more people than this information and empowered people to share the clarification, the fact check, and so on. So we already have that sort of civic crowdsourcing before going into the pandemic. So people is reasonably sure that if they surface something such as a new way, point out a bias, it will get a result in not 24 hours in two hours. Okay, at least I've right now learned that we did only two things of your three Fs. We did it fast. We did it also fair in terms of the Swiss COVID app. That was our digital contact tracing app where I was responsible for, but we didn't have the fun factor. We also didn't have the gamification factor. Maybe this is what we should do the next time, the next crisis, the next crisis. Unfortunately, it will come, I guess. So thanks. Well, coming to Switzerland and digitization in healthcare, I've wrote this to you. To be honest, Switzerland is not that good in that topic. So we are quite poor in digitization and there's a ranking from 2018. Maybe several people here know that. And we were placed in position 14 out of 17 countries here in Europe. So as far as I know, still over 50% of all doctors, physicians here in Switzerland are documenting on paper with a pen. I know that you once stated paper and pen was the first personal computer, but hopefully this is not the fact for the healthcare professionals here in Switzerland. Do you know the situation in Taiwan? So are you working totally digital? And if yes, still what kind of obstacles, what kind of challenges do you have in the healthcare system? Yes, the entire universal healthcare system in Taiwan is digital, but it doesn't mean that people cannot use analog ways of input. This is important since you mentioned the contact tracing example. This for a while for a year or so since mid-2021 is our primary contact tracing system. It's based on SMS. So instead of installing any app, you don't have to install an app. This is a built-in camera. You just point it to the QR code, it pops out 192 to the toll-free number, and you send a 15-digit random code. And that's it. That's all the checking requires. The point I'm making is that introducing a new app usually just exclude 20% of people. Because we know 20% of people, although they can use a phone and the built-in apps, they do not have the expertise or they feel insecure about installing new apps. But the flip phones are also important. So you can look at a 15-random digit, manually text that to 192 to, and that still counts as a check-in. So again, that includes like 10% more of people. And all of them can go to a website to see which contact tracers have looked at their records in the past 28 days. So again, a reverse accountability, reciprocal transparency. With this in mind, it means that even people who do not carry any feature phone or anything at all, they can work with people who are nearby who accompany them. At the end of the day, they can still write on a piece of paper. But at least people can build a letter of expertise of a little bit more, learning a little bit more, and assisting people. And once people see that if they take their IC card to the local convenience store, they can take the kiosk to pre-order the mask or get a vaccine or get a rapid test and so on. And in these cases, the people in the convenience store can help them to take their card to point and click on the kiosk. But even my grandma, who is almost 90 years old now, after a couple of times of pre-ordering mask, she also remembers what to click on the kiosk. And so she can teach her friends in their 80s and 90s afterwards. One first is to have an assistive intermediary, the pharmacist, the convenience store of staff. And second, to always design with a maximally inclusive way so that people, even with just a flip phone and so on, can also learn something, and then to them, it's a little bit better than paper then. Mike? Yes. Okay, I see that you're interpreting the fair part much broader than we did. So you are much more inclusive about targeting all the people. As I said in the beginning, old, young and also well-professional and not well-professional. Okay. But coming again to the healthcare system in Taiwan, do you think that the digitization of the healthcare system in Taiwan is perfect? So what are the downsides in your opinion of the current situation? Maybe a small question. Do you have a kind of a national electronic health record for every citizen? Yes. So we just tried right now here in Switzerland. It's called Elektronisches Patienten dos hier. I think not all of you know that. It is already established. You can have one if you want. But yeah, we have only, I think, 40,000. And that's it for the whole population right now. In Taiwan, in 2003, we had our source epidemic. At the time, only a very small part in our country, the Penghu or Pescadores Island, is piloting the electronic records and the IC card for universal healthcare. Everybody else, including like everyone in Taiwan or Jimman Mao Zhu and so on, are using those paper-based cards with paper-based records that are, well, the good word is federated but really dispersed among all the different systems in all the clinics and so on. Now, after SARS, I think people wake up to the fact that without such databases for, as I mentioned, reverse accountability for ledger and so on, in terms of epidemic control, you would like to be fighting blind because there's no way to get real-time access to information and to get information to people. And so people generally agreed that we need to have a national healthcare database but the constraints, the human right, the human right abuse prevention, the data protection and so on are paramount. So we held a citizen's deliberation assembly with statistically representative people to just deliberate on the parameters of this. So it's rolled out 2004, 2005. Now, in the 15, 16 years since the establishment, we have not had a single major incident cybersecurity-wise or privacy-wise. So it's very much relied upon. So by the time that we encountered the COVID-19 pandemic, we basically increased the reach of the universal healthcare system. It didn't use to, for example, link to the immigration records, links so that the clinic can see whether you come from a place that was more COVID than Taiwan around 2020 or is also linked, as I mentioned, to mask availability, purchasing rapid tests, purchasing like everything. So it used to be just medicine, healthcare, but now it's just generalized pandemic control. Of course, there are also concerns that whether this is going beyond the scope of the originally agreed upon by the citizen's deliberation design of the universal healthcare system. There are constitutional courts debate currently happening of whether we need to allow opting out of the future data use because the original social contract was no opting out. So that is still being deliberated. I'm sure that we'll continue to find a delicate but fine-balanced norm around data availability and privacy concerns. Okay, what I see here, two things is that there was a crisis which gave the thing a push in your country. And the other part is that there's a big trust from your people to the governmental infrastructure like this national health record system. And I was responsible for digital transformation the last two years at the Ministry of Health here in Switzerland. And I was asked several times, will this crisis give us also a push in digitalization? And to be honest, I can't see it right now. Not yet. Maybe in the next years, some new legislation are prepared right now for the near future. But still what I realize is digital transformation needs change management, changing the habits of the people because new tools make new processes, new work, new collaboration. Also digital transformation needs more money and more investments. Maybe a question to you. Do you know how much finance you have put in, how much money you have put into your system for the digital transformation the last years from the governmental side? That is a really good question. We, for the first time in the same one's first term, our president, classified digital as a kind of infrastructure budget. This is important because previously in the Taiwanese accounting system, and I think many other accounting systems across the world, only things that are concrete, like literally made out of concrete, count as infrastructure budget, and usually the investment or the capital expenditure is not extended to things purely made out of bits. But by including the digital infrastructure as a kind of infrastructure, we made sure that this is not just about the concrete things, but rather about the bits in general and the data pipelines and things like that. That became very important. So we put in, I think it was 87 billion NT dollars over four years on the first term of the President Tsai Ing-wen into the digital public infrastructures and a huge difference that they make. Previously, we have silos. We have a lot of records, for example, for disaster prevention, for earthquake mitigation, for flood control, for air pollution, and water level and water pollution and so on. But they're all in different universities, different agencies, different civic tech communities. But by saying that the sensors, of course, is already there, the computation power is already there, but the data pipeline that connects them together are the infrastructure that we are investing in. We make sure that the machine learning models, the transformer models and things like that become a common good that people can apply across disciplines. So I think this is definitely an idea that is worth spreading to more accounting offices around the world. That this is both operational expense but also capital expense. Okay. Well, in my former role, I was responsible to establish a digital transformation strategy for the Ministry of Health but also for the healthcare system here in Switzerland. And I realized that we are lacking a lot of interoperability. As you mentioned, all the silos, which are there in different agencies in different institutions. And if we would try to connect them today, to be honest, we are not allowed to do that by law. It's not allowed because of data privacy issues, but if you would change the law and we would try to connect them, we are still lacking technical and semantical interoperability standards. I've heard that you are promoting these open API standards. Can you tell us a little bit more about that and how you are going to combine these different kind of data silos? Yeah, certainly. For example, this is some Arduino or Raspberry Pi boxes in all our primary schools that measure the PM2.5 air pollution levels so that the students can inform their parents whether they want to go for a hike or stay at home. And this has been civic tech, like not at all government infrastructure. But because this is part of basic education, some people start to find, for example, in the industrial area around Xinzhou, there's actually a small gap there because the teachers are not allowed to break and enter the industrial areas to install the sensors. And so they work with us on such topics over the years through this annual competition called Presidential Hackathon. In Presidential Hackathon, more than 200 teams each year propose their ideas corresponding to one or more of the 169 Sustainable Development Goal targets. Now these SDG targets are voted in by the people for a drastic voting, a new voting method. And the Top 20 gets this boost of three months of internal sandbox of trying out their idea, as I just mentioned, in a region in basic education or things like that. So people try out, for example, using FHIR to connect the ambulance and the emergency response unit in the Ministry of Interior to the Ministry of Health and Welfare in the major trauma units in the nearby hospitals. So later on it gets connected to the road planning agency of the Ministry of Transportation and Communication to optimize the red light or whatever design of the road. And that's very different data norms. And to link them together, you need to procure systems that take care of not just the people using the system, which for an ambulance system is probably people in the Ministry of Interior and Health instead of people in the Ministry of Transportation. But rather, we say in our procurement for any interactive parts you need to offer it also in machine readable and writable format the open API standard by the Linux Foundation. If you don't if the procuring agency tick the box, if you don't implement that or charge a lot more to implement open API, then you could be disqualified as a vendor from future procurement just like, we use the same language just like refusing to implement seeing disability, right? And that's the basic idea of the procurement. And once all the systems are procured this way, then it becomes possible to link them together. Of course, just like the Estonian X Road, we call it the T Road, it still maintains a full ledger of the access. And for privacy, like private identity information, we use instead multi-party computation federated oblivious storage homomorphic encryption to make sure that we can use the insight or the computational model but not necessarily the raw data. Okay, impressive to be honest. Yeah, maybe this similar kind of infrastructure we will have also in Switzerland as far as I know, the government today here in Switzerland is going into that direction that at least the governmental bodies and the governmental IT infrastructure could and should look like that what you just showed. As you know, we are here at the Swiss MedTech event so medical devices mobile devices also for healthcare delivery and as well as software, mobile apps for healthcare delivery. Short question are you using a mobile device for healthcare or some software for that? Yes, in an extended sense, right? We popularized the use of medical for psychological consultations. Previously, it was not possible for people in Taiwan and the psychiatrists or counseling profession to operate throughout the internet because there's a lot that says you need to be done in the designated place but then we creatively reinterpreted so that anything a counselor's computer connects to to be interpreted to be in the same place and so that extended the reach of things so I have on my phone Farhugs which is like hugs from remote a psychological counseling tool that I personally helped to interpret into existence. Okay, maybe you know that there's this GDPR the data privacy regulation here in Europe as well we have a new medical device regulation which is effective from this year on and last year on it's quite a big hurdle to jump over here for the medical device companies do you know how the quality assurance is done in Taiwan so regards to medical software, regards to medical devices and what my personal opinion is especially for the software these medical device regulation is not really fitting what's your opinion on that Yeah, I think the latest one of the later Apple Watch models that doubles as a kind of diagnostic device was the first public case that received a lot of scrutiny from our Ministry of Health and Welfare in terms of its use as a kind of medical device but it pertains I'm sure not just for the software analysis part but also to the hardware like the IoT sensors there like whether it's reliable in terms of making self-diagnosis and so on in Taiwan although our privacy law is broadly compatible with the European model we do not have full GDPR adequacy because each Ministry is its own data protection authority we do not yet have a single DPA that scopes over all the different ministries but basically the Ministry of Health and Welfare get to be the DPA and decide the norm and the privacy interpretations which tend to be of course more strict compared to the interpretation for example from the environmental protection authority that you just saw on the airboxes for very good reasons so yeah I think in Taiwan we think of data norms or privacy norms not as a one size fits all thing but rather to look at them like we don't have a text norm right there's a journalistic norm there's an academic norm and in different academic fields different norms about their papers so just like there's no one size fits all text norm we think the data norm is broadly aligned with whatever textual norm that is the Ministry or the competent authority to say now with that said not all ministries have the supervisory and regulatory capabilities to express their requirements as software code if they do like our financial supervisory council which successfully express is anti-money laundry and KYC know your customer if you try to open a bank account or sign insurance with old people there are certain steps that you need to ensure that they are fully informed and so on and once those rules are expressed as computer code it become very easy for the compliance units in the banks to just plug and play that particular module in their software instead of a black box that seeks certification afterwards I think we should establish a modular computer code readable legislation and regulation so that is not we want to do evil we do not do evil but rather cannot do evil that is the direction we are working forward to. Okay thanks for this insight one of the big challenges right now in the health care area is the usage of data we have so many tons and billions and trillions of data in different data data CSI laws which we can't access which we can't use for instance for research purposes. Last year we had here the Finnish delegation here and Finland established a secondary use of health care data act two years ago first I think in the world we had a dedicated act for that and do you know the situation in Taiwan or maybe you can tell us how kind of secondary use using healthcare data for research how is it possible and what do you know? Because each ministry is own DPA the ministry of health and welfare simply interprets research based on the total data of national health insurance legitimate altruism public benefit as simple as that so not only there is no opting out from the universal healthcare there is currently no opting out from using it in secondary research so we are at the other end of the spectrum like a very social thinking a very collective thinking of data now that is helped of course by the fact that we've never had a privacy or cyber security breach in the past 15 years so the trust is high but even so I think the constitutional court encouraged by the GDPR is now deliberating in a couple months we will have a interpretation whether that we should still allow some sort of opting out or whether that use of such data need to be additionally protected by as I mentioned zero knowledge proofs or multi-party computation encryption in order to continually qualify for this no opting out status it's really opposite of our situation here okay I didn't know that well unfortunately we are coming to the end and for the last questions I would we would like to hear from you maybe you have some recommendations for such underdeveloped countries like Switzerland in terms of digitization and healthcare so what is your recommendation to us here in Switzerland how could we reach a little bit more better digitization in healthcare yeah I think Switzerland leaves the world in deliberative and participatory and direct democracy a lot of our work in Taiwan has been working with the European researchers on digital democracy to bring some of your techniques and processes into the digital realm so we can figure out the norms together in 2015 our first use of the open space technology deliberation online using polispl.is shows that for the uberx case which is people without professional license driving to work and back picking up strangers charging them for it my social media friends and families are all over the place they don't know whether to call it sharing economy or people call it geek economy there's a lot of contests in the space but we deployed assistive intelligence or AI to help people after seeing the open data the facts to share not their final voting but their reflection their feelings and there's no right or wrong about feelings and after three weeks of running the polis ideation we only hold to our self into account to answer the 10 most resonated feelings across different groups and use that as the basis for ideation and finally regulation so for example I feel that passenger liability very important if you agree you move toward me you click agree you move toward me if you click disagree you move farther away from me but there's no reply button so there's no room for trolls to grow but rather people just keep posting their own ideas feelings to resonate with one another knowing that only the nuanced ideas that speak to the entire population enabling collaboration across diversity has a chance to be heard so in mainstream media you see divisive statements polarization but on the polis system we only see the common grounds like registration not undercutting existing meters insurance and so on which we very swiftly turn into legislation so Uber is a legal tax in Taiwan but the same multipurpose system also enable local churches local temples in underserved areas in rural areas to form their own fleet sometime from long-term health providers and so on which also earns tourist money and so on in a way that benefits everyone is a plurality solution is not a singularity solution to this situation so I would encourage you to build such a norm-building layer combining the aspects of the face-to-face analog deliberative democracy that you excel in a world as well as the digital way to record and amplify those norms so that we can actually agree on there's some common points around privacy around accountability together and to enable small-scale pilot studies to be scaled into national scale like our presidential hackathon okay that means ask the people a user-driven approach for also better digitization in healthcare well we'll think about that thanks so I have to say goodbye it was really a big pleasure thank you for the inspiring interview I hope also here the audience enjoyed your views and opinions and as you do it like that I say live long and prosper he's had a long life thank you thank you thank you minister order tank thank you doctor Kim for the great interview