 So, I am with someone who is full of contradictions, someone I recently met and one thing which describes him for me is that he is absolutely authentic, full of contradictions, full of energy, full of wit. On one hand, he is devastatingly logical, on another hand, he deepens the mystery of the whole world. He does not dissect it, but he makes it very approachable for you. He is someone who is very unconventional, mystic. He is someone who does not scare you with, you know, the gargantuan or the majestic, something which you can touch, feel. He is here with you. He talks the language of today. He talks the language of science. He talks the language of logic. And that is what makes him absolutely special. And I am privileged to have him here with us and would love to spend some time. Hi, Prasim. Please sit down. So, it's your first time in Varanasi or Ibnia before? I've been here before, but more in the passing just for a day. I was here. This is the time really I am spending time here. You must have thought a lot about this place. How does it match up to what you thought? Today morning somebody was asking me, how do you feel about Varanasi? So I told them it's fabulous and filthy. I think that's relevant. In many ways in terms of what's been done here in the past, it is the most fabulous place on the planet. But the way it is here today, definitely it's not the way anybody would desire a great place like this to be. So leaving the filth and the politics and whatever else that's happening around here, because those things can be changed. I think we need to focus on a magnificent amount of work that's been done here in the past. Not just me, I'm sure so many people in the past, many travelers from various parts of the world who have come here, in their own words they have said it. People like Mark Twain, Max Moller, some of the Chinese travelers in the last millennium, they have said things that has not been said about any other place. And in terms of its antiquity, nobody is able to fix a date as to where it is. The Banaras Hindu University has archaeological proof to say it is over 7000 years. And over 7000 could be anything. The whole effort is to make the limited human being connect with the unlimited. This is always the fundamental of Eastern life. This is not a culture based on some religious belief. We are always seeing that cosmos is just a larger manifestation of who we are. Otherwise, our other way is we are just a tiny micro manifestation of the cosmos. But that's what science also says. I mean you are part of the energy, you are part from the... To some extent, but serious scientists will not accept that. So because of this, the whole effort is to connect. Why should I connect? Well every human being, wherever he is, whatever he is in his life, he is always trying to be something more than who he is right now. If that something more happens, he wants something more. If you look at it, he is always longing to become limitless. There is no particular boundary which will settle him. It is the boundlessness which will settle him. But isn't it just a thought? It is not a thought, it's a longing. Longing generated by a thought? No, no. Longing is generating thoughts, not the other way around. But it's a vicious circle. No, no, no. It's a continuum of thoughts. And it goes on like a relay race. We pass it on from one generation to another and you strengthen. Is it a lint of myths? You don't teach anything to the next generation. Still they will long for something more. It is just that if you are living in a village, you have one cow, you are thinking of two cows. You are living in Mumbai, you are thinking of billions maybe. Because there is an innate longing to expand always. Expansion different people may find it in different currencies, depending upon what they are exposed to. That is thought. Yes. So someone who lives here… See what you long for is a thought. Yes. But your longing is not a thought. Even if there is no thought, there is a longing. Yeah. But what you long for, especially in the case of spiritualism when you say I want to connect to the larger source, wouldn't it be very basic? It was not learnt, it was not taught, it was not imbibed by me. I would not long for a superior sort of… See, you wouldn't be able to articulate. You wouldn't be able to articulate. But you are going towards the infinite in installments. It's a hopeless way to do it, that's all. It is the culture which cultures you to make you understand. Don't waste your whole life going by installments towards infinite. It's not going to work. It will become an endless run. If you want to say infinite, you start from one, two, three, four. You will only become endless counting. You will not make it. Your longing is fine. But the method that is being employed is hopeless. So in this culture, from the moment you are born, they said there is no need to go in installments. You seek the ultimate straight away. The only reason why it's not possible is because you're thinking physical. Physically you're trying to become limitless, which is an impossible thing. Because the nature of physicality is a defined boundary. Without a defined boundary, there is no physical in the existence, isn't it? So with this defined boundary, you're trying to seek a place which is a boundless. It is not going to work. See, there is something within every human being that he does not like boundaries. Suppose I imprison you in five by five cubicle. You will feel horribly imprisoned. If I liberate you tomorrow and release you into a ten by ten cubicle, you will feel great for a day. But is it so? Because I have seen stories of people who were born inside a cage. And isn't it that if you do not know the other reality at all, then this reality is your reality. And the desire for freeing yourself is not there at all because you do not know the meaning of freeing. So the desire is not for freeing yourself. If I imprison a child, right from the one day the child is born, and he's suspended reality, he doesn't have any… He wants a little larger cage. Do you think so? Definitely. Does a parrot want a larger cage, yeah? Definitely. You do one thing. You put a parrot for one year in a small cage, release him into a larger cage. See how happy he will see. He will fly all over the place and he's very happy. Is it my understanding of freedom which makes me feel that he's happy or is it the parrot which is actually happy? The parrot would be most happy if it can fly free. That is unquestionable. But if the parrot was born inside the cage… If the parrot does not know what it means to fly across in the sky, then what would happen? It is always looking out of the cage because it wants the cage to expand a little bit. That you cannot deny. You try experiments. I completely understand when it's… when it's known to you what it is to be free. What you're trying to say is this longing for freedom or expansion is a conditioned response. If you're conditioned, otherwise you will not. Not true. You may not think that big. That's why I'm saying people are going in installments. Yes, yes, it's a good one. See, wherever your parents were, you're taught to expand little more. You're not suddenly thinking of becoming the emperor of the universe, okay? You're thinking of how to be a successful businessman in Mumbai. But if that happens, you would like to be a most successful businessman in the country. If that happens, you would like the world, isn't it? If that happens, if there is a possibility to become the top businessman in the galaxy, would you try? Yeah. So that longing to expand is always there. How much you think beyond is dependent upon how you're conditioned. But the longing to expand is there. If that expansion happens, you seek the next. You're going towards the infinite in installments. It is a hopeless condition. No, that's a very interesting one. I never thought like that. So, yeah, I always thought that, you know, if you don't have knowledge, that's not true. you don't seek it. It's a chicken and egg. No. So you're saying you seek first, the knowledge comes later. Only because people did seek, knowledge came, knowledge did not exist to start with. To start with, knowledge did not exist. Only it's human seeking, which brought all the knowledge and science and technology and everything, isn't it? It started from somewhere for sure. From seeking. Yes. From human longing to expand. So here they created a yantra, a machine through which everybody can benefit. If you just be in this space, naturally orient you towards ultimate liberation. You know, when you talk about this instrument, which brings me to a question I always ask about yoga, and I feel these asanas, and I, it's my point of view. I mean, maybe absolutely wrong, but I feel there's too much of greed in that to learn from other animals. You know, why a snake is doing like this? Why? Whoever told you this. I think like that. I'm telling you, that's why I'm asking. No, whoever told you that we learned it from the snake. I mean, you say this asan, that asan, I feel that why are you doing like a dog and why are you doing like a lion, you know? Everything you want to learn from everybody, anybody has anything I want to get the best of it. No, no. Is it greed or is it… No, the yoga, the yoga that you have heard about and come in touch with is a rebound from American coast. Okay? That you… people are writing books saying yoga started in California and Madonna was the first practitioner. Okay? Yoga started over fifteen thousand years ago when Adiyogi taught yoga to his first seven disciples who are today celebrated as Saptarishis. The yoga that he taught is not a physical exercise nor is it about animals. People name it according to what there is. See, now you get into this pose. What is this? Give it a name. What? It looks like a boat. We call it a boat pose. Now, Kasana, this is nothing to do with the animals. You sit like this. For me, you look like something and I'll say that because otherwise how to give a name? It's just… It's just convenience of names. Yes, it's got nothing to do with animals. Yeah, yeah. No, I thought, you know, some of the… I'm very, very little sort of knowledgeable about yoga. So, this reason is a very naive question. But I felt… The physical Asanas are like this. See, if in seventies or early eighties, if you had a television at home, now you're watching your favorite program, suddenly it goes boop, boop, boop in the middle. Then you were a little boy and you run up the terrace and there's a piece of aluminum. You would just sit like this. If you get it to the right place, again the whole world pours in. So, yoga means just this, getting your body aligned with the cosmic geometry. If you hold… If you just learn to hold this right, if you just learn how to sit right, okay, you can download the whole cosmos. It is from that basis that Kashi has been created to create a large human body, a magnificent human body which is… which doesn't have the inertia of carrying physicality with it so that it will be on all the time and it can just download the whole process. That is what the phenomenal effort that they made in Kashi. Great. An individual can do it. But to make it happen for many people is a different game. So, you mean if you see a satellite view of Kashi, it would resemble a kind of her yantra or something like that? Definitely. Even in a… if you come up in a hot air balloon or a helicopter, you can see the yantra form. That is the physical aspect. But some people are claiming they have taken pictures of the energy form which I have not seen. Just in the last two days, people have been telling me some journals. That's exactly how I was introducing you, that you do not mystify it beyond a point and that's what, you know, I like about you especially. Because I feel in the world of religion and when there is spirituality, you can… because there's so many layers that you can… The work of a guru is to make the mystical available to the existing human being. What is available, they're making it mystical. Yes. What is already grasped, that they're trying to make it mystical. What has not been grasped which seems mysterious to other people, you bring it down in a way that people can grasp it. That is your work, not to take away what they have. That is political job. But how do you draw a line between, you know, being where you said scientific yantra and… and being superstitious? Where does one draw a line? See, most of the superstitions that exist in the country today or a science is being transmitted in a dialectical form. So when few generations drop the science because of external invasions, disturbances in the society, when they could not transmit the science, only the stories went by. Without the story… science when the stories go by, they will get exaggerated to a point of ridiculousness. Simple things. In Karnataka, there is a belief that if you invite a guest to house, you must keep a pounding stick. If you invite somebody for a lunch, you must place a pounding stick. So as soon as a guest comes, they keep a pounding stick as if they want to beat him. So where does it come from? If you trace and go, particularly if you invite them for a non-vegetarian meal, you must have a pounding stick. It goes back and says, they said, if you invite your guest for a non-vegetarian meal, when there were no dentists and no dental cleaning and all this stuff, non-vegetarian food is something that sticks in people's teeth. So you must always keep a toothpick. There were no ready-made, Chinese-made toothpicks. So you had to get, you know, go to some fresh plant and pluck one this thing. You said always you keep a stick. That stick became bigger, bigger, bigger, bigger and became a pounding stick. Amazing. They want us to go to them. Yeah, fantastic. If a tiger is born, it is not thinking how to become a good tiger. Just eat well, it will become a good tiger. That's not the case with a human being. Because what is a good human being? Still we have not defined. Okay? What is a good tiger we know? What is a good dog we know? But we do not know what is a good human being yet? Or is it that it's a vicious circle and which is unnecessarily complicated because end of the day a bliss, a tiger can experience a human being cannot experience or we are cursed forever? No, no, no. This is a possibility. This is not a curse. Possibilities are experienced as curse when people look at it fearfully. See when you look at a possibility from the instinct of self-preservation you will always see it as a problem. Hmm. You are looking at it because you want to strengthen your fortress but at the same time you are looking at a possibility of going beyond which is always seen as a problem. All possibilities are experienced as problems by those people who are living with strong sense of self-preservation. You are extending that self-preservation to psychological preservation, emotional preservation. These are not to be preserved. These are to be liberated. So you're saying that self-preservation is fine as far as it's confined to the body? Yes. Not to the thought in the mind? No. Your thought, suppose I destroy all your thought today, what's your problem? You will run out tomorrow? No, but it will destroy your identity. That is all. That is all we are trying to destroy. Your identity is a self-created nonsense. Yeah. So when it's created by you you must be willing to put it down. What is creator's creation, this body, you can't recreate it so you don't damage that. So what do you... This needs to be preserved. But what do you say to that, I think therefore I am? And what do you have to say for that then? You tell me. Because you are, you may think, isn't it? Only because you are, you may think. Not because you think you are. So somebody is so engrossed in his own thought you're so full of yourself, you think your thought is the basis of creation. No. Your thought is just a small aspect of creation. It has its relevance, it has its beauty, but it's a very limited aspect. Your... Your thought will fit into your life, but your life will never ever fit into your thought. Yeah. The thought should be yours. You should not become that of the thought. Thought is an instrument that you should learn to use. You should not become a product of thought. Thought should be product of you. Yes, right now the thought is using you. Yeah. What your thought says is only coming from the information that it already has, isn't it? Yeah. The existing data is generating these thoughts. That is not a vision. That is not some kind of an insight into something. That's conditioning. No, but it's useful. Because thought is the only way you can use the information that you already gathered. Nothing wrong with it, it's a great tool. But a tool should not... should be used by you. You should not be used by the tool. I get it. I get it. Please. On one hand, we say that, you know, this is just change of clothes. But why do people glorify when they come to Kashi? The death so much. Why do we need so much of ritual around? So one is this question which comes to mind. Second thing is, what is this moksha? What is this mukti? That, why isn't it against life? Rebirth, everything. Isn't it that we are glorifying death far too much? And ultimate death in Kashi, which is mukti, it means we are against life? We think that being reborn is a curse. These are the questions which I wanted to ask you. Did you enjoy your school? Yes, I did. You enjoyed it? Yes. But were you very eager to go to college? So when you passed out of your tenth or twelfth standard, suppose we admitted you again to kindergarten because you enjoyed it so much, would you like or would you like to go to college? I simply did not think that time. It's just that natural thing that you go to next. It's to go to the next stage, isn't it? So if you've seen enough of this life, you want to go to the next stage, you don't want to do the same thing again. What's wrong with that? Yeah, but what one says when one says about moksha, what I have heard, maybe it's a half-paked knowledge. But the fact is that you will not be reborn again. Yes. So being, why is such an effort? You don't want to go back to kindergarten again. What's wrong with that? No, but you're saying that you don't want to go anywhere after that. No, no, no. That's not... You don't want to be born in any form. You don't want to go back to school once again. So every form is a school, you say? It's one stage of life. But then why do we say that, you know, being born as an ant and being born as a human being are two different things? Because of the possibility, not because we think we are superior. Nobody in this part of the world has ever told you that you're made in God's own image or anything like this. That is the reason why we have all kinds of gods and goddesses. In Kashi, they manufactured 33 million gods and goddesses in the form of an elephant, in the form of a snake, in the form of a cow, in the form of a dog, every kind. Just to make you understand, every life has its place. And there is no life happening here without the hand of creator being actively involved in it. If you watch an ant closely enough, it's a magnificent piece of engineering and mechanics and creation. So it cannot be happening without the hand of the creator in it. That is the reason why in this culture we told you if you look at a tree, you bow down. You look at a rock, you bow down. You look at a cow, you bow down. You look at God, you do the same thing. You look at a man, woman or child, you do the same thing. Because you recognize the hand of the divine is in everything that is there. Every atom cannot function without the source of creation throbbing in it. For yourself, did you create this body from outside? Did you borrow it from outside? Or did it happen from within? You gave it food from outside. But making a banana into human being happened from within, isn't it? So there is an intelligence and a competence which is the very source of creation within this. Otherwise you cannot transform a chapati into a human being. It is happening all the time. So now to acknowledge that first thing. So that is the reason all kinds of gods, everything is divine in this country. Here the saying is, Shiva himself said, Kashi ka kankar Shiv Shankar. Every stone in Kashi is Shiva. So you don't bow down to one thing and not bow down to another thing. Everything you bow down because everything has an element of the source of creation. The possibility of human being is that you can realize that. Yeah, but the fact that Kashi is so significant, what is the significance of this city? These rituals are not glorification of death. This is not a celebration. This is a scientific process. Being in Mumbai city, you might not know this if you ask the people in the villages or if you run an undertaker's business, you would know this. A dead body up to eleven to twelve days continues to grow its nails and hair and things like that. Do you know this? It's a fact of life. So because when you happened in your mother's womb you didn't happen like a flash. It happened slowly for a period of time. Similarly, when the prana leaves the body, it happened slowly. Someone may be practically dead. For all practical purposes, he may be dead. But still the prana is not left to system. Still it is there. There are many ways to use this also and above all, as long as the prana is there in the body the person who's left the body is confused. See, from outside observers we think he is dead. As far as he is concerned, he slipped out of the body. When I say slipping out of the body, let's set up a proper perspective for this. When you were born, your body was only this much. Now it became this much. How you gathered it from outside, isn't it? This is just a piece of the planet. The food that you ate, you gathered it. What you gather can be yours. You can claim it to be yours for now, but it cannot be you, isn't it? Can it be you? Then what am I? Don't jump now. Whatever you gather, it can be yours at the most. It cannot be you, isn't it? I gather this clothing and after some time if I say this is me, this is insanity, isn't it? These are two people. They gather this body and they think they are this. So this insanity has set in. Because the majority is with you and we are following democratic systems, whatever the majority says is right. But that's stupid. You know you gathered it. What you gather cannot be you. It's nothing short of insanity. Because everybody is in the same condition, we think it's okay, but what is not okay is not okay. The suffering and confusion and lack of understanding of life has come from this one point that you don't understand that you are mortal every moment of your life. So the purpose of making a public display of cremations here is for you to know that you are mortal and you realize you are mortal. When your time is up, you come to Kashi preparing yourself to die. So this mortality is the only thing to think of what's beyond. If you were immortal, you wouldn't think of anything. Your life would have no meaning, isn't it? Only because it's going to end. And what is going to end is just what you gathered. This body is a loan that you taken from this planet. You take the loan from the planet when the time to repay comes because most people have made nothing of it except thinking rubbish in their head. Psychological realities, however big they may be, they will collapse in a moment. When the moment of death comes what you thought, what you felt your thought and emotion will mean nothing. Existentially what have you done with this being that's all that matters. That dimension is largely obliterated in the society today because of very strong Western influence. Before sir you answer the question I had jotted down this in a form of poem in Hindi I will tell you exactly what it means. I am dying every day in the words, words, boons, boons, in the stories. I am dying every day in the words, words, boons, boons, in the stories. I am becoming a person, I am becoming a person. My thoughts are being left and being called I see the body. Whose body is this? Whose fingers are these? Whose breath is this? Who is this? Whose breath is this? When has this been going on? Is my thought what I am or what I am saying right now is that I am? Is the body a dimension where my thoughts are left? Is the body a dimension where my music is created? Still it feels that I am decreasing decreasing, decreasing, but the thought becomes a dimension. It makes me feel that the more I am spending, the more I am increasing. The nature of my body and my being is increasing in the form of my thoughts. The form of my thoughts is increasing. I am forgetting the fruits of my thoughts. I will be a piece and then I will be a piece and then I will be a piece and then I will increase. What I tried to say here is that as I asked you what is death? Is the decaying of the body or is the dying of the body death? On one hand my body is dying and my thoughts, my ideas are becoming something which the world embraces and they live without me. So is it what would you define death? Have you ever died, it's all right for poetry you wrote, have you really ever died? Did you die and come back? No, in your experience no, isn't it? Did you ever see somebody who died and came back? I haven't seen anyone. Have you ever seen a dead man? I don't think so. So you have not seen one, you have not met one nor have you experienced. So where did you get this idea that you will die? It is learnt thought. That's what? It is a fiction of the ignorant created by the ignorant. There is no such thing as death, there is just life, life and life moving from one dimension to another. So only when people are ignorant and their vision of life and their perception of life is very limited to physical nature of the existence then they will think of life and death. Otherwise there is just life and life. Wonderful, wonderful. So you are saying that does not exist? Don't believe me what I say, I am only asking you. Let us remove. No, I understand what you say. Let us remove what's not true. Let us not talk about truth. No, but you know if you forget philosophy and you see what you see is that there was a person whom you could touch and feel that person. There was a body that you could touch and feel. Many times desperately you tried to touch the being but you never did. At the most you touched their body, you touched their thoughts, you touched their emotions. You tried to touch them but you never did. But you feel their absence when they are not there. Because a body is missing, a mind is missing, the chatter is missing, emotions are missing. That's what you are missing, you are not missing the being at all. But that missing is missing because I am feeling it. Missing is just a psychological process, isn't it? Isn't it a physical process as well? Yes, physical and psychological. Your mother who used to feed you, who used to hug you, there is no more doing that. See physically very easily we can replace things. It is the psychological and emotional factor which is irreplaceable because of the uniqueness of the psychological structure of that person and the uniqueness of the emotional relationship between those two people. It is that which is irreplaceable. Physicality can be replaced effortlessly, isn't it? I am intrigued even further because this guy called Ray was Nick or somebody whose name he is trying to recreate his father, this scientist. And I was watching the documentary he made where he is saying that every… He is talking to everybody who knew his father and he is trying to get the reactions his father could have on various junctures and various stimulus and he is collecting those responses and he claims that one day he will have exactly the replica of his father in terms of consciousness which he will create, which could be transplanted on a computer or he says I can create a figure, I can do whatever I want. But what would you call something like this? What would you call that he recreated a person? I would call this madness. We are too enamored with things that we have created. We are missing out the grandeur of the creation. What do you call people who are saying that they are freezing themselves for years now? I heard that you know you will go into a temporary death and then would you call them dead? Like they are saying that after thirty years you can defreeze them or reassemble. What in this state? A long time ago the Egyptians tried, right? Physically. Yes. But they could not make, they only created the mummification they did. But what these guys are doing now is that freezing you where your body can be reborn after thirty years or whatever time you want to come back. Why? Women are capable of getting pregnant and delivering a new body, why do you want to preserve the old body? I don't see any sense. That's why Kashi, the moment you die within an hour and a half the body should be burnt because if the body is there all this drama will happen, okay? Psychologically you will play all kinds of games as long as the body is there. So the rule in India is if somebody dies within an hour and a half you must burn. Why it is is as I said Prana leaves the body slowly over eleven to fourteen days. So there will be confusion in the being which has slipped out of the body and there is a confusion in the people who are around him. So somebody is dear to us and they die. If you sit there and the body is there you still think maybe he is only sleeping, maybe he is only going to sit up, maybe there is going to be a miracle today, maybe all the loss will be broken and today somebody dear to me is going to sit up and live. These things invariably happen in the mind, okay? So the moment you burn the body you will see people go to the cremation ground and they come down. They were crying and yelling when they come they become quiet because the reality has sunk in. The most important thing with the existence is to be in tune with reality not to create hallucinations. Now you got gadgets to assist you hallucinations whether it's convenient for you or not. Somebody is dead means they are dead it's fine now, okay? Now that brings me to another thing when people find for example what happens in Banaras, things like aghoris. Some people, foreigners talk to me they also find that insanity. They think what is this I mean like people are going and doing bizarre things, eating dead bodies or experimenting with various other things. What is it also is something which I think for everyone it will be good if you explain that. They have not probably visited the scientific laboratories, biological laboratories where they are doing absolutely bizarre things with various creatures. Yes or no? All that is done with the intention of well-being. How much well-being comes out of it? We don't know, isn't it? Once in a way something comes out rest of the time we are only doing bizarre things in the laboratories aren't we? Even in a high school if you study biology you are cutting open frogs and looking into this and that it's quite bizarre, isn't it? Quite bizarre? Yes it is. It's quite bizarre but all of us have done it and continuing to do it as if that's the only way to learn. So what they are doing is as I said there is still prana in the body that is dead. So they are sitting there if you go there to Manikharanik and Harishchandra Ghat aghoris will be sitting there watching everybody who will come they enquire how old is this person, how did he die? That's why some of them who don't want that to be known they are covering with plastic sheets you know where people cannot see how old is the person they won't say how old was the person. But the aghoris want to know if it's a young person somebody who was vibrant life and for some reason he died they want that kind. When that happens they want to do work there. They want to make use of the energy that's released once the body begins to burn this prana has to exit immediately. When that exits they want to make use of that life energy to do something with themselves. Now people won't give it to them because they don't want their dear ones to be used like this. So what these people will do if it is there they'll grab the body and run. So right now don't you go to Africa and catch thousands of monkeys and bring it to bring it to your laboratory to cut them and to do all kinds of experiments. All the monkeys are thinking what's wrong with these people why are they doing these bizarre things to us. Yeah but they are alive and you can see that you are injecting chemicals in them and you see the reaction and then you decide. That's what I'm saying. But here the body is dead. That's what I'm saying is if the nails are growing if the hair is growing some life still exists right. That part of the life they want to use they don't want to do a live person because it will lead to human sacrifice they don't want to do that. They're waiting for the dead to come what energy is released from the dead body from cremation they want to use that. If you do not know the science of that you cannot just think it's all bizarre. Yes it's an extreme way of doing things it is not for everybody it is something that should be done without you know without coming into the notice of a society. But unfortunately everywhere there is population today there was a time they would be here they would hardly be anybody they would do what they want to do for their growth and well being. Let me be little cynical here what is the contribution of an agori to the society to a humankind what have they done for us I mean if you talk about science I can say yes those monkeys which have been used ultimately you've got some medicines you've got some some certain things which you can fight the diseases and stuff like that. But what has an agori given to the world which they should be proud of and we should give them a sanction to do things which a human being does not find palatable. What is beneficial to a society and what is not at different times different times in history different things people think is beneficial. In for example in Tamil Nadu in ancient Tamil history the greatest title that a man can receive is Aayira aane konnavan that means one who killed slain one thousand elephants he is the real man well virupin is almost half way there why do you treat him as a criminal just why don't you provide him with another five hundred he claims he's killed some five hundred and odd elephants if you provide him another four hundred and odd he will be the greatest man in Tamil Nadu why don't you give him out of time isn't it not not contextually right so now whatever you're talking of science as creating great benefits it is only contextual now already it's beginning to happen all the environmentalists are trying to block block every scientific thing because people are beginning to understand in the name of development we completely destroying the very source of our well-being tell me what is it that's destroyed this planet it is essentially technology isn't it yeah but technology is coming out of the yes it's driven by that but I am saying what provided what facilitated there were Alexander the greats who wanted to conquer the whole world but they couldn't do it but it is the technology which did it isn't it so is technology bad no it is just that it's in the wrong hands how it is used so the type of technologies which were 50 years ago now we are looking down at it how could somebody do this nonsense if you see a chimney spooing smoke today you think oh my god they polluting hundred years ago when they saw a chimney in Manchester City they thought wow isn't it so you are saying that Aghoris have become out of context no I'm not saying they're out of context they have no context to the society their context is their ultimate well-being they are only looking at the ultimate nature how the society is today they know and we know that what is true today will be looked down upon tomorrow what is great today will be thought as the most horrible thing day after tomorrow this will anyway happen in the social structure you are made to believe that this is it and tomorrow your next generation will stand up and say what you did is the most idiotic thing what you thought was a great thing so they are not getting involved in the context of the society they are only involved in the ultimate nature of their being so they don't care what the society thinks so they always stayed away from society but today society is occupied just everything they have no place to be by that logic we can define any you know we can justify any perversion they are not causing harm to anybody never are they causing harm to anybody have you heard of any Aghori attacking anyone no he's doing something with himself he's not and some of the see people are taking drugs people are drinking themselves to death people are smoking and blowing it in your face they're not doing any of those things they're in remote places doing their own thing with themselves not with somebody else yeah that's a that's the point they are free to do what they want only with themselves they're not doing it with anybody else as far as they don't as far as they don't scare the society as far as they don't see the scaring the society is because society is just populations have exploded and we're just everywhere yeah where is this occluded place tell me right that's a point that's a point that he if they want to live and this explosion of population is societies society is a culprit not Aghoris they don't reproduce at least yeah so then that over glorification of Aghoris when we hear that they are they are this they've got the superpowers and all that that probably is exaggeration and they are self centered no no no experimental things what is super and what is not super is again contextual see today you can pick up a little bit of plastic and metal in your pocket and speak to somebody in a Mac yes if if only you could do this hundred years ago we would have treated you as God if president Joshi was the only one who had a cell phone and you pull it out and talk to somebody in America we will we will think either your is messenger or son or himself isn't it yes so it's only contextual their thing is not about powers it is just about they want to evolve to a place where what you hold as something that you have or they are trying to befriend that because the moment you like something and moment you dislike something you have divided the existence and once you divided the existence you cannot embrace it so they're going with whatever you would not be able to stand what is most abhorrent for you that is what they befriend because they want to take away what they like and what they do not like everything is same to them so this is a way of embracing the universe one strange you are doing it what do you know on the other hand you have this otherwise successful for some people that's all that matters it works yes it is not for you and me but for somebody it works I am not against anything that works if it works it's fine with me yeah but it it works for them and they can't ever tell you how it works for them they can say that I'm happy so let me be that's what they can say they're not even talking about happiness we know it works I mean it works okay in a certain way you can find certain transformation certain capabilities they display which is otherwise not possible so it will not be possible for a normal person to do what they do so so definitely there is some sort of stretch of mind happened already there I wanted to ask you what why do a human have the fear of death so much so much of either you've got fear of death or you glorify someone who dies I mean look at the world and look at rock stars dying early it becomes a virtue you know you you become a star because you died so what is that makes us so uncomfortable and not at ease with it see it's not death which is disturbing for people here in right now we are in front of Manikarnik right next to that is the Kala Bhairav temple what you see there is Kala Bhairav temple Bhairav is one who takes you beyond fear Kala Bhairav is the fear of time it is a fear of time it's not the fear of death in fact in southern Indian languages that is the terminology used for death Kalamai Tanga Kalamai Poinar Kalavadru all southern Indian languages see his time is up so the fear is always about the time time is the basis of fear if you had limitless amount of time it wouldn't matter isn't it it is time is running out if something happens time is issue if something doesn't happen time is issue yeah so death essentially means your time is up so it is a limited amount of time which you're referring to as life and you know if you do not do certain things within that span you will not you will be unfulfilled in so many ways so people who live a very full-fledged life you will see when the time to leave comes they will leave much more gracefully than people who have not lived a total life if their experience is big they're very lived very joyfully with huge sense of ecstasy about life such people will die with ease actually those are the people who should not be eager to go isn't it people who have a bad life should be wanting to go but that's not the truth so that the discomfort and the fear is nothing but the fact that the time is yes that is why call by rough if you are free from the fear of time you are free from fear itself absolutely Carl is also seen as black because you don't see what is next it's completely dark time hides what is tomorrow isn't it but it's not in your hand when you're going to be born and when you are dying why not it's not Akala Mirthio what is Akal Mirthio a child dies a teenager dies it's not there in their hand so how you understand the most important temple in Kashi is Avimukteshwara so Shiva promised I will never leave what do you say for that why are you just picking up bad examples when they made Kashi they made 468 shrines 13 months of the year we look at the year as 13 months because once in three years there's an extra month in the lunar calendar this calendar runs to a few like thousands of years people say three lakh 39 years the 39,000 some so many years calendar is there for them three lakhs 39,000 it runs way before any other calendar came up and it's quite perfect it's perfect really so now looking at the geography of who you are the physical geography of your body the cosmic geography of the solar system and the larger geography of the cosmos itself there is a very intricate connection so this is made like this solar system is like a potter's wheel the way it spins is the way our bodies have developed this Adiyogi said over 15,000 years ago he when when the Saptarishis asked him isn't there some other way apart from the yoga you have thought he said right now human body has reached a place where it cannot evolve further when I say evolve where did this come from well he told you the first form of life was fish the second form of life was was an amphibious animal a turtle the third form of life was a wild boar the fourth was half animal half man the fifth was a dwarf man the sixth was a full full-fledged man but emotionally volatile the next is a peaceful man next is a loving man next is a meditative man the next who is supposed to come is a mystical man you heard of the ten ten out there it runs very much parallel to Darwin's theory of evolution and Darwin's theory is only a hundred hundred years old 150 years old it's 200th anniversary of Darwin's birth was only last year that brings me to you are here in Kashi and you said that this is the first time properly you've come here and you've done Saptarishi pooja here what is what is that I was wanting to know that see I am not generally a temple going person okay in my whole life I've never prayed this is the fact never ever I've never prayed I never felt the need and I've never prayed so for me see you need to understand this the ancient temples of India were never places of prayer nobody led a prayer even today nobody leads a prayer okay these are built to a certain scientific geometry if you if the geometry is right this called as a Gama Shastra the five basic conditions are fulfilled the size and shape of the deity the mantra that is used the size and shape of the garbha grrha the size and shape of the parameter which is known as a parikrama and it may go further depending upon how much they're able to do if all these things are right and if the right things are done it will generate such a huge wave of energy so this is a place where people are supposed to go make use of it and come maybe in northern India these instructions are completely gone out of vogue but in south India in Tamil Nadu if you come even today the basic instruction is not to go and pray in the temple but you must go and sit there you must sit there and come so people make a ritual of it now they just touch their bottom to the floor and go that's not it you must sit there because it's like a public battery charging place and also the tradition says if you're on the spiritual path you need not go to the temple because you have your own self charging you don't have to go to the public charging so they were always created as energy centers only when I notice there is something like that I'm interested in the temple if it is just built for devotion and stuff you can be do it anywhere I can fall in love with the tree or the cloud in the sky I have no issues I don't need a form to do that so if they're powerful energy centers we want to see Kashi we know is one of the most sophisticated energy space that's been created on the planet ever okay my own work is just that I'm creating various forms which are like exuding energy in such a phenomenal way so we wanted to see we came unfortunately a lot of things have been demolished but yesterday was a phenomena in Saptarishi pooja I went there see these people who themselves those who are doing it they do not know how it happens but they're sticking to the procedure that's been thought to them and making it happen see the guy who's driving this boat does not know how to build an engine he's just learned to use it and it works so they just learn to use it and they did it in such a way stacks and stacks of energy they built this may not be tangible for other people for me it's a living reality and people will just burst into tears they don't know what it is but that again brings me to it's not an emotional thing I don't sit there with emotion it is something you can see with your eyes that's that's why what would I feel you know you require so much of prior knowledge and prior conditioning to be able to feel that energy if I plant conditioning conditioning will not let you feel it you will imagine things if you want to feel it you have to enhance your perception because only what you perceive is reality rest is just imagination so you're saying that the energy is such that if I put someone there from some Africa and make you make make him sit with you definitely he will not feel strange he'll feel energized definitely any part of the world I go people will sit with me and they'll burst he doesn't need any conditioning he doesn't need any hypnosis to make them believe this or that all beliefs if they're taken off and you learn to keep your system open only then you can feel life because the whole system of yoga is about enhancing your perception if you do not enhance your perception this is what the third eye of the Shiva is supposed to be when your perception is fully enhanced we say you have a third eye because these two eyes can see only that which is physical third eye means to be able to see the subtler dimension of life see right now science is dealing with so many things that you cannot see isn't it yeah but science is dealing with so many things that you can that is fine yeah so science is dealing with so many times you're dealing with things which you can you say you can fly in an aeroplane you can really fly on other hand I feel a someone who does you know what you call it levitation yeah that's I mean that is what given yoga actually there are a lot of spiritual entrepreneurs who are destroying the whole possibility of what it is absolutely I agree with you that is a great problem see that is the reason because the culture has fallen in many ways this has happened because of innovations which have subjugation and lack of you know economic economically being down poverty for long and maybe with the bathwater and people are yeah that's what is happening because you know when you look at that levitation and look at the video it is ridiculous you know people are jumping up and down and they're feeling they are flying they just have to take frogs as pets yes so that's the reason I'm something but but but what you're saying is that this is such a high energy center and the Saptarishi Pooja you did here was a way I did not do I was just a witness to it I just a witness to it as the Saptarishi should have done seven people sat down there and they did this and it was a phenomenon I've never seen anything so energetic in any temple I've been to quite a few wherever I feel it's an energy center I go this is a phenomenal science you must come and sit in the Dhyanalinga temple no ritual no mantra no pooja no nothing it's always in total silence just come and sit there and see because it's essentially created for meditativeness people who have no idea what's meditation people who have no instruction without an instruction you can make people meditative they come and sit there they think they're going to sit there for five minutes they won't know they'll sit for an hour two hours simply because they become meditative so these are technologies these are not belief systems great technology is gone bad my last question to you is when somebody comes to Kashi what is a must one should experience here the must is first of all to come prepared a little bit I would say if you're traveling to Kashi at least for three months get initiated to some simple meditative process meditate for some time make yourself a little more sensitive and come leave all your beliefs at home and come don't believe anything and you must have an immunity for filth if you want to experience the fantastic you must be able to overlook the filth but at the same time you know see the contradiction of sublime and profane will always be there I wouldn't call this sublime and profane the filth is quite profound too it's not profane it's quite strong I'm saying you should have an ability to look beyond the filth to touch the fantastic the fantastic is also here the filth is also here we are striving to remove the filth I'm talking to various people district administration the temple authorities the administration of the Lucknow and some of the organization something will happen we are writing to the heritage foundation if something moves in with money it will happen people have to move in with money if you just talk it's not going to happen we're talking to some waste management companies to come and explore if they can do something here so hope in the next three to six months we will reduce the filth so that it'll be more easier to experience the fantastic so let's hope when we come here next time we'll have cleaner river and deep into the river is a much bigger job I'm only thinking of the streets right thank you thank you that was really a pleasure