 Asperges in Society is a Manchester-based documentary about the relationship between autism and mental health. Over the course of the filming process, I was introduced to a number of interesting autistic individuals and struck by the quality of these experiences and opinions, I decided to create a behind-the-scenes video series to showcase these marvellous people. This is one of them. So, let's go into the table. I'm excited to see what comes out. Yeah, have you done anything that became out of this thing before? Um, I mean, I've got autistic friends and we've had these sorts of conversations a lot before, so it's not completely unusual for me, but not in this setting, no. Okay, it's okay. Are the lights all right? Yeah, the lights are all right. Is there a two-layer or anything? Yeah, that's fine. Okay, so question number one, how would you describe autism to someone without it? Um, I see it as because it's so different for every person. I'd say that it's kind of like a list of trains that like come in many different combinations, but there are always a few that are the trend between those people. I mean, I don't know enough about neuroscience to be able to give like a very informed answer, but it's very, very hard to describe, you know, and when, and the thing is, people want simple answers and you can never give them that simple answer, so it's a real struggle. That's perfect. That is a very good answer. You know, it doesn't have to be the official, you know, like things, it's just got to be what you think that's all the counts. Question two, do you like being autistic and why? I really like being autistic. It's very liberating to know that you're autistic, because it's something that I think is like an integral part of your personality, or at least it has been for me my whole life, and knowing, kind of having a name for what was always been there and being able to kind of love it is great. So, I think I love it because it entitles me to be happy about that part of my identity. That's very good that it happened after that. That is very good. Okay. Question three, what traits of autism do you like and how are they beneficial to you? I quite like being socially inept sometimes, because I don't feel ashamed about it. I just think I'm doing things a slightly different way. I'm not, because I don't kind of enjoy normal dull social situations. Actually, no. Do you mind if I redo that? Yeah, yeah, sure, go for it. Because that's a really hard question. You like that you're bad at socialising. Yeah, no, we do then, because we're like, not getting jokes and stuff. Yeah, the thing is like, more into the deep stuff, I guess. Well, it's just because it means you, I think I like social netness because you can actually be really charismatic about it. I think if you carry it off well, it doesn't really matter. And sometimes it can actually give you confidence in a way because you're like, well, I know this is something that I have, so I'll just do the best that I can with it. And I mean, like, there's a lot of comedians who that's that's how they they do their job, you know, they work off of their social netness and make the most out of it. But I think it also means that if you kind of embrace it, it means that you're not going to have insecurities about talking about your interests, you know, you'll you'll feel easier about saying, well, I'm really interested in birds, for example. And the thing is, sometimes that's going to be met with a approach, sometimes people aren't going to be interested. But I think sometimes it's better to just say, look, that's going to happen. But I'm going to do this anyway, because what I want to do, um, I will try to be as accommodating as possible, but I will also be me. And sometimes I don't think it's worth regarding all social conventions, if it means you have to kind of repress yourself. So I guess being I think my favorite autistic trait is is having the freedom to be myself, actually. Sorry. No, that was brilliant. Brilliant answer. What were your relationships like in the past? That is to do with friendships? You can include this bit. Um, wherever you want. Oh, you can include this bit. Um, so the thing is, is I've had really good friendships. Um, I really, really strong friendships. Funnily enough, probably the best friendships I had between what the beginning of primary school to the end of secondary school were actually with people that I'd only known very briefly. Um, um, and may, I don't know why that is, but I think sometimes with autism is it obviously disadvantages you socially to a really great extent, um, which kind of means you depend on meeting certain types of people. And those people don't have to be autistic, but they are usually people who aren't completely normal either. You know, when you're autistic, I think you can, like I tried to do this. You can do your very best to imitate people. And I think like if you, if you had the looks and you did it well enough, I think some autistic girls could probably fit in with like the popular crowd if they really wanted that. But in order to do that, it takes so much restraint. And it also, I think it kind of kills off a part of you when you, when you do that kind of thing. But when you meet people who aren't, again, aren't necessarily autistic, but they are maybe like weird. Usually the other, the other sorts of people would get picked on often, right? That's, those tend to be the sort of people you can bond with. But if those sorts of people aren't in a school and you know, there's lots of schools that are very small, so the likelihood of meeting those sorts of people is actually very minimal. I think it can be quite impossible to make any kind of long lasting relationship that you like you really, you really engage with. You know, I think the problem with autism is it's, it's very much characterised by loneliness in many, many cases. And it shouldn't be that way. Because I think the issue is, is not that autistic people don't try. I mean, that's something I resented about my diagnosis is that it mentioned that I kind of wasn't attempting to make these friendships. And I was, I desperately was, I wanted it more than anything else. But if people aren't open to it, people aren't open to kind of, because it can be difficult having an autistic friend or an autistic partner can, can be difficult at times. But I honestly think that that's, that's not what preoccupies people. What preoccupies people is they have a first bad impression of you. And then you're kind of relegated to weirdo. So I've had, I've had a lot of friendships that I now I look back at them. I think those people weren't my friends. They're people I had to spend time with, because the alternative was being bullied. You know, the alternative was, it was a meerkat instinct. You know, I had to be around people. So I was, but those people weren't my friends. But in a more optimistic way, I did meet people who I really like. I have a long term boyfriend, which I think does surprise some people, actually. But you know what, as much as I'm sure I'm trying, I think people don't seem to realize that autism can actually, in terms of how difficult it is, that it can actually be very limited. And in many ways, the things that people will find difficult about autism are the same things that are difficult about normal neurotypical people, you know, like a lot of a lot of things that I find difficult about my relationships aren't, they're the same. Very good. That was a bit long winded. Yeah, it's fine. I was thinking of, if everybody's okay with it, and I get permissions, if I quite like to upload, like the full full kind of interview things, because I think it would be very, very good to sort of like let people know that because I felt exactly the same with my relationships in the past. Like I sort of hung around with an individual people that I sort of clicked with, but didn't necessarily know that intensely. But then I go and hang out with them in someone else's group. And then when I felt a bit weird there, it goes to someone else, and then it goes to someone else. And like, it was very strange. And I didn't really have any proper, I feel like I had any proper friends until I went to uni and stuff, and actually tried to like, you know, with adults, people who are a bit older. I have this totally absurd experience in secondary school, where I mean, like, I did, I had people who I hung out with. But the thing is, is they didn't, I mean, they didn't exactly defend me. I'd say even a few of them were bullies themselves, really. But I was, the thing is, is there's, that's an autistic trait I don't like, naivety. I was so, so trusting, so trusting, and so desperate for these relationships to work. I also couldn't recognize when someone was being horrible, really, because, you know, they were supposed to be my friend. So I kind of just accepted it, despite the fact that what they were doing was bullying. But anyway, I hung out with those people. And one day, I had this falling out. I think that was created by some pretty autistic circumstances, actually, because of how I had spoken to them in a way that I thought was perfectly fine, but clearly had been misconstrued. And I offended this person, and they were going to fight me. And I was really kind of perplexed by the entire situation. But then these, all of these people from my year started chasing them away. As someone came and tapped me on the shoulder and said, Esme, it's all right, we've got you. And I was like, I probably haven't spoken to you more than twice in the entire time I've been here. But, and the thing is, is the reason that they did that is because, you know, I'd been charismatic enough in the classroom. And I'd been enough of a sort of class clown sort of person that like even though they barely knew me, they had this abstract sense that I was funny and therefore worth protecting. And that's nice, I suppose, but it's also, it's also weird because you think, you know, what would actually be preferable to this would be, you know, some, some actual relationships, not just kind of this vague sense. That's what I have a problem. That's a problem I have with a lot of kind of autistic films, well, not autistic films, but films about disability in general. Because like these disabled people, people in films, they don't really have friends, but they have like this sort of vague community that protects them. And you're like, well, it's nice to have a vague community, but you do need a few people that you have genuine relationships with. Really? You've actually answered the next one. So the next question was, do you think all your symptoms contributed to any struggles? That seems like a good idea. Is there anything else that you wanted to add on that? I think it's an everyday struggle. Like, I'm paranoid a lot. And it's not, yeah, it's not, it's not based on anything rational. It's just like, I think, I think someone's looking at me and then I can't get that out of my head. And it makes me really hostile. I don't like myself doing that. But it's me. And it gets a lot worse, actually, if you, ironically, if you don't talk to people, and if you don't try to socialize, if you, if you socialize and you, and you do interact, your mind goes, oh my God, why, why did I think that? I was stupid paranoid. But if you don't, then it just, the paranoia just goes round and round and round. And it gets worse and worse and worse. And then everyone's looking at you. And then you can't go to the canteen anymore. You can't go to, you can't go, you can't go to a lecture lay and sit down. Because, you know, if someone's even vaguely rude to you when you try to sit down, you're like, everyone hates me. Everyone hates me. The world hates me, you know. And that's, that's a pretty awful aspect of autism, I think. It's really, it's really strange, actually, because I have the same sort of thing. Do you know, like how there's a lot of autistics who say, I've got a recharge, you know? I know, I do still have the recharge, like having to be on my own for a certain amount of time. But actually, if I spend too much time on my own, my mental health gets worse. Oh my God. It gets worse. Like, nobody, why is no one messaging me and I think I want to hang out and all that kind of, just paranoid things going round. Because I think it's just because of school, I guess, because I don't, I know proper friends at school. So. If I, I'm going to say, it does put you up. And the thing is, like, so I've got this autistic friend from college. And we were saying how you're always the person to ask if people are available. You're always the one having to arrange things. And I think it's because most people are actually quite socially useless. I think autistic people actually have it right. You know, they're often the people, not to boast, but they're often the people who are making the effort to say, no, we're going out then, and you're going to be here, and we're going to do this. Because otherwise, a lot of people, they're quite content, actually never seeing people. They're quite content. If you don't ask someone to come out, they will, they will just spend all day inside and not do anything. I mean, autistic people, I think we're going to need them if people are going to talk to each other in the future, I think. Because they're often the people making the effort. I love that. Okay. Right. See, if you've talked a lot about school already, you've covered a lot of the points, which is a good scaling, I guess. We can go for it again, and if you've already answered it, I want to go for it now. Question six, how was school for you to be an autistic impact, your experience in any way, you can go into any aspect of school? I probably should have known something when I basically exclusively wanted to spend time with teachers and teaching assistants and older people. I didn't, I still find it hard to be around my peer group now. Because the thing is, if I tried, if I even dared to speak about my interests with people my own age, I would just be mocked for it and harassed. But if you went and spoke to an adult about these things, they would engage with you. Now, I might not have realised, maybe they were doing it out of pity or kindness. But I think there was willingness, at least from some people, to actually engage with me. And I loved that. And that's why I spent so much time kind of talking to teachers and talking to adults. Because I got a lot more out of it. And so that was probably the best thing about school. Autism at school, in pretty much every other aspect, was hell. But I would say to anyone else who's had that experience, so many of the things that are terrible aren't your fault. And there's usually nothing you could have done to mitigate it. Because you can't help being yourself. And I don't think you should either. And inevitably, most people will, as a response, try to restrain themselves, try to be less autistic. And that's fine as well. But just don't let, don't give up on yourself completely. Because you will be so much sadder about that, than the kind of temporary happiness you get from passing around school people. Because they are temporary. And they are worth trying for. In a way that damages yourself. Brilliant. So you've covered Question 9 as well. So Question 9, she's covered that one. Perfused Tom, for reference. We don't have to do that one, because that was brilliant. You're just answering like, have you looked at them before? Okay. You're not just like Taylor. Okay. So we have four left. Okay. Question 7, would you change anything about the way society deals with autistic problems? So many things. So many things. Because there's things you just don't have to do. But if they weren't done, would make autistic lives a lot easier. For example, I think it should be clearer what spaces are for what function. And what I mean by that is, there are many times where you seek somewhere to go as a refuge, which is supposed to be a quiet area. And then an hour later, 10 people come in and they all start eating their lunch. And all you can hear is people eating their lunch. And that's a terrible situation for most autistic people. But the thing is, obviously, if you were ever to complain about that, you would be being the difficult one. But that whole situation could be avoided if it was clearer. Is this a space where I can be quiet and I can not have to hear things like that that will really distract me and bother me? Clarity, I think, would make a huge, huge difference. If people were just more clear, and I think people are resistant to that because they think, oh, it's not my job to change. It's not my responsibility to make things easier. Autistic people should accommodate me. But autistic, just think, autistic people are accommodating you all the time. If you don't think autistic people are accommodating you, you don't know any autistic people. Being autistic is accommodating the entire universe that doesn't understand you. And sometimes a little bit back, a little bit, just a little bit of effort the other way would be enough. And some of that work's being done, like there's a disability service at this university that works really hard to improve these things. And there is support, but that it shouldn't just be, it shouldn't just be that it should be society as a whole trying better to understand the autistic experience. And just things as simple as don't call someone picky if there's food they just won't eat. It might be that they're just being picky, but it might be that it's causing them serious pain, actually. Just sometimes try to be understanding, because also these people might not be able to articulate what the problem is. Very often I can't articulate what I'm struggling with, and it just kind of comes out as noise, if anything at all, or a physical reaction. And what I need in that moment is someone to say, look, don't worry, sorry, okay, we'll do something else, you know? It's kind of like hearing about everybody's different opinions and stuff kind of makes me feel less intelligent, less unique, I guess, because you guys are so good at articulating your thoughts. It's very nice as well. Yeah, but I think it sort of makes me sad though, because it's not for all the right reasons. Because you know what I mean? It's like, I'm not one of these people who kind of believe in like an autistic society would be perfect and amazing. I don't think, to be honest, I don't think anyone like truly believes that. But I also think the way sometimes I think autistic people being expected to go through the same life experiences and be normal is, I think it can ruin lives actually, at least ruin childhoods. And sometimes you inevitably learn from these experiences. But to an extent, you have to question, well, should I have the experiences? Like, just because the bad experiences taught me something, it would have been nice to not have had the bad experiences. I think I probably would have taken like a happier childhood over my ability to articulate. I think you've answered the next question, I think. It's great, it's great. I don't know how to do it. It's like some sort of sighting or something. The worst thing I ever saw was I looked up this diagnostic thing. This woman, she writes books on aspergers, but I don't think she's an actual professional. And she said, one of the things she said that you could use to see if someone was autistic was whether they had psychic abilities. And I was just like, this does the opposite of help me. I don't know, I just think it's a very, very in-depth logical insight into how things work. Yes, it's not psychic. You have a good understanding of where something might lead from prior experience, even in social situations, like sort of thick social situation like this, because it's much of you talking, but you can still sort of understand where it's going to go, I think. My friend Nathan's really good at that. The thing is, but sometimes your assumptions are wrong, and that's a problem. Because I'm always going on assumptions of what people mean when they say certain things. Sometimes people just talk rubbish. So things you think are indicators and not actually indicators at all. And that's very frustrating because I depend on that to understand people. I depend on these assumptions. And if those assumptions are wrong, I can kind of repair it and be like, well, that assumption was pretty wrong. It was actually this. I'll just add this in. But the thing is, that's a lot to have to remember. You're recoding your brain, you're recoding your responses to social interactions, and it's hard. I just wanted to say, banning clapping, not a good way of supporting autistic people, please do something more than superficial things, please. Like maybe just the student's shooting as a whole. No. If you like autistic people and you want them to come to your events, maybe provide headphones, maybe don't blast music all the time, because that's going to bother me. The clapping, I know when that's going to happen. And I'm fine with that. But all the other things you do, no. No. I hate the student. Me too. I got a start. I was like, oh, great. So there's stopping people from clapping. It's like, it's not going to, you know, I mean, that in comparison to everybody talking all the time, as well as a background, a very strong like music. And then other people talking on Instagram and screaming. That's a bit worse than clapping. Yeah, it's so much worse. It's just, it's just, I was really annoyed actually, because there's, honestly, there's so many roles. I can't remember what the specific role is. But the person who kind of holds the role that is supposed to deal with these sorts of things is, I mean, they kind of all take in their pride that they were the people who banned clapping. You know, like people, as if they invented space travel, it's like, oh, yeah, I'm the person who banned clapping. You know, as if, as if when they're, when they're in retirement, they're going to get their kids and they're going to say, look, so I was the person who banned clapping for the first time in the university. I've helped so many disabled people by my revolution. That's one of the things I hate the most. They're just, they're just so oblivious. So they didn't, the disability service is down there. That's like, it's not even a minute's walk from, from where they operate. And they didn't consult anyone. They didn't consult a single person yet. They feel able to claim that they did take for autistic people. I hate that. I hate that. It's not a general consensus. Okay, right. Question eight. I would like to hear you talk for as long as possible, but I think the meeting room is going to be over. There's a time limit. Sorry. It's fine. I'm very much enjoying this. Question eight. If you could talk to your child's self, what would you tell them? I'd probably say prioritise fun. People, people aren't always TV trusted. And the ways things work, you can't always justify. Don't try to justify things that are unjustifiable. Think beyond that. Think, no, actually, not everything I'm told, not everything I'm asked to do is correct. Be a little bit more rebellious. And things will go very well for you. And I guess that's, that's what I would have told myself had I had the ability. But I suppose that's, that's the direction I'd like to give people who can actually make that change now. Okay, that's great. Because the next question is, what would you say to any autistic currently struggling in school? Trust yourself more. Don't assume because someone's dismissive or because someone's harassing you. That, that means that what they're saying is right. Stick up for yourself. And, but also try not to, when you're sticking up for yourself, make yourself more vulnerable. Because the thing is, is autistic people are very emotional, from at least from what I know. And sometimes when they are emotional, that which kind of happens when you do stand up for yourself. People, people actually see that and they say it's weakness and they, and they will try and target that. So try and defend yourself in a way that, that shows people I'm serious, I'm to be listened to, I'm to be take, again, I'm to be taken seriously. And you cannot just target me because of who I am. And I won't let you, it's about not letting people. And that might be very hard. I'm not saying it's, it's, it's always possible. But just do your best to be like, I'm not gonna let this take control of me. Brilliant. Okay. So we've got two more questions left. Last, what do autistic people have to offer the world? I mean, I've got a bit of a controversial opinion in that I think autistic people shouldn't have to have anything to offer the world. You know, there's no such thing as an inadequate autistic. You, you just have to thrive as best you can to the best of your ability. And to be honest, you don't even have to do that. Be lazy if you want. Don't do well if you want to do that, because you have every right to just as anyone else has the right to not thrive. Um, you know, obviously, I hope people do well. But don't ever feel that you have to. It's your choice. I mean, it's not your choice to succeed. That involves a lot of other people's decisions as well. And you're not always in a position where you can succeed. But in those situations, don't blame yourself, because there's so much you can't do. But if you do the things you can, that's, that's fine. That's all you need to do. And if anyone kind of berates you for not being a genius or for slacking or for not becoming this ideal, that's fine. Because you are entitled to live a life just as everyone else does. And that means you don't have to be anything other than what you want to be. And if, and if that means having, if that means you find happiness in, um, a simple job or a simple life, you shouldn't feel ashamed of that. Brilliant. Okay. Last question. Have you enjoyed this experience? What would you like to say to everybody? I really enjoyed this experience. I think what I'd like to say is more than this, I want this to be indicative of a change that's already happening. I want there, after this, at some point fall there to be something that can make Rain Man a memory, to make kind of, to make even figures like Hansa Spurger forgotten, to be honest. I want these things, I'd prefer for these things to be buried. And for a certain autistic self-determination to be visible in society. I want, I want people to know what autism actually is. And what I, I hope that means, I hope there's stuff like this, but then there's also films, books, um, like a cultural movement. Because I think that's, I think that's what autism means, to be honest. Yeah, I feel exactly the same way. That's why I'm doing this documentary. Absolutely brilliant. Thank you so much. Um, is there anything else you wanted to add in that I could, I could add in during the post for the YouTube video? Um, did you read the, um, article about Hansa Spurger in, um, the London Review of Books? Um, I, I did, um, because I, like, I tried to read as much as I can, um, on the subject. And, um, it's so much worse than I realized. You probably won't want to include this, but just, anyway, um, it's so much worse than I realized. And I think Hansa Spurger was a terrible, terrible man. Um, I think if people, if people are most comfortable being identified as a Spurger, they have every right to live that way. Um, because I think in many ways they've reclaimed it, and that's, and that's fine. But personally, you know, he, he tortured people and he sent people to death camps. He, it's his work that is in a lot of people's minds when they think of autism. And he is the last person that I would want to influence how autism is thought of. But he has this power that I just, I just wish he didn't have, because he doesn't deserve it. He's a terrible, terrible figure in history. You know, at, like, someone drew a comparison about would it be acceptable if any other minority group was labeled by kind of a major figure in the Nazi party? No, it wouldn't be acceptable. Um, it'd be gotten rid of immediately. And the Spurger kind of hangs on with this. He's, he's, he's still legitimate with many psychologists. That shocks me. That shocks me when these people know the sort of man that he was. And the thing is, is that doesn't mean we don't, we have to burn everything he's ever done. That doesn't mean we don't have to, to consider him. But it, I think we need to take his power away from him. That's all. So that, that, that adapts his stuff to, that effect, that effect the actual, how actually autism is. So I think the whole, the whole, um, all the, the diagnosis, you know, like not deciding to, um, wanting to socialize. I think that's a severe, like misunderstanding. It's, uh, it's, it's a case of actually, as you grow up, a growing need, a growing need to have interaction with people. And, um, because of the, the high intellectual development, um, we sort of develop a need for more deep thoughts and deep emotional connection with people. You're a, you're a, you're a little adult. That's the thing. You're a little adult. And you just can't, and people don't sort of appreciate what you say, even if you did talk to adults and stuff, they do understand, but they don't. They're very patronizing. So the thing is, is that I think the saddest, the most tragic thing about that is that you don't realize that they're being patronizing at the time. You think, oh my God. Um, and then you get older and you really, and then you have this horrible realization. Oh my God, they were just doing it because they felt they had to. And that's, that's horrible. Um, they could, they could be doing that. Or they could. There's some, as, again, there are some people that I think genuinely are well-meaning. It's just, there's also, I think it's the fact that you can't tell. Um, the whole, just to say on like the socializing thing, um, autistic in its original definition as defined by Asperger and his colleagues was like the outsider, that the autistics were the children that weren't spending time with the other children. And, and that, that is a bit of a problem because it, it means that there's this association, this connotation that will always be there of, of outsider of other. Um, which, which is why we're, we continue to be alienated. I think there are, there are kind of genuine reasons why we will feel alienated from society, kind of no matter what happens. Not in a pessimistic way. I just think that's, that's kind of natural. Um, but I mean, there's no reason why autistic people can't, can't just be like people. Do you know what I mean? And have normal relationships, normal lives. Um, but as, as long as we're still associated with outsider with other, um, we can't have that. What we can, we can do our very best to not let that impact us. But it will, it will always on some level, which, which isn't fair. The most recent sort of education. Yeah. And young ages that introduces kids to, to our way of thinking. So that, so that we can actually be included as a normal part of society, I think. It's all about exposure. So if kids, if kids see something, um, if they see a not fake autism, not kind of TV autism, like if they see like real autism and see how normal it actually is, most things are a very autism, fairly predictable once you get to know it. If kids realize that, then it won't be, it'll lose all of its shock value. It won't be funny to say how so autistic because it'll just be so normal. I definitely, I think definitely in terms of communicating in fixed environments, like monologuing, we're very good at that. And I think, I think, um, having that developing that skill and actually using it makes us probably better talkers than most neuro-typicals. Like, I found it with myself, the more that I try to, to practice speaking in front of people, um, the more I can, I can, I can put my ideas across the more that people listen to me. So it's, I feel like every aspect of what makes autism is a disability can be worked on. Yeah. There's nothing that's, there's no, um, I think there is always an inherent inability to some, some degree, but that's, that inability is not, yeah, it's imposed upon you. That's the problem. Um, I, I guess there's always that awkwardness of like some people, some people have it a lot harder than others. Do you know what I mean? Like some people that is a spectrum and there'll be some people who, because of the nature of the severity of their condition are going to have a completely different experience to me. Um, but I don't want to abandon those people. And I think, unfortunately that, that happens as well. There's a whole group of people who desperately need to be represented because they don't have a voice like this. You know, they have a carer and, and also like five times as many autistic and disabled people are sexually abused than neurotypical people and non-disabled people. Um, and they're abused very often by people who, who are supposed to be figures of trust in their life. Um, I, I'm not in that situation, but if things have been slightly different for me in some way, it could have been that way. And those people, they need, they need to be represented as well. Um, and their humanity, they might be represented in TV, but always these dehumanized creatures, you know, like that's the problem. A lot of disabilities always, always dehumanized in media representations. Um, and strong. Yeah. And it's, it's normalized. This dehumanization is normalized. Um, and if we don't resist that, then it will continue to be that way. But what I'm saying is although I understand that this is progress, there's so much work to be done and so many people can't be forgot in this because that's, that's what happened with Hansa Spurger. He did allow for a certain group of autistic people to be recognized, but all the other people who didn't fit his categorization were sent to death camps and we can't, we can't let those same mistakes be repeated where favoring one specific group that's more competent. Yeah. We forget those who, who are and maybe can't be.