 Hello, I'm Karina Lyons, Vice President and Director of Research at the East West Centre and host of East West Centre Insights. The Centre is a cutting-edge research and capacity building institute and we're based here in Hawaii and our mission is to forge a deeper connection and understanding between the East and the West. So every two weeks on this show, which is on Tuesday at two o'clock, we'll be having a conversation with an East West Centre expert or a guest from our global network. So check us out at EastWestCentre.org slash Insights. So today it's my absolute privilege to host and introduce to you the former President of the Republic of the Martial Islands, Dr. Hilda Hiney. So Dr. Hiney was the eighth President of the Martial Islands, serving from 2016 to January 2020. She was the first female President of the Martial Islands, the first female President in all of Micronesia, which is a block of five countries, and she was the first female President anywhere of Pacific Island descent. Dr. Hiney has also served as the Martial Islands Minister of Education and she is currently an RMI Senator, representing our atoll. And today we're going to be talking about the big issues facing the Pacific region. So climate change, women in government, US-China relations, education and the upcoming negotiations on the Compact of Free Association between the Martial Islands and the US government. So President Hiney, it's so wonderful to see you again and thank you for joining us all the way from Maduro, Yaakue. Yaakue, Yaakue and Aloha Karena. Thank you. Thank you for having me on your show. Now, thank you. And so you are in Maduro and the Martial Islands and just to give us our bearings, so what time of day is it there? So I don't know if I'm being disrupted or not. Yes, today is Wednesday and it's noon in Maduro. I think we're two hours earlier, no later than here at one time. Yeah, so I guess in the lockdown, everything sort of merges into each other and RMI is still shut down, right, to anyone other than Martial East citizens? Yes, actually, even Martial East citizens can not come into the country at this point, so we're completely locked down. There is some efforts by the military on Quadrant to bring in essential workers. They go directly to Quadrant, but that's about it for now. Okay. And the last time we spoke, which was yesterday, you were telling me that there are no COVID cases in the Martial Islands, is that still the case? It is still the case. We're very, very lucky to not have to deal with the COVID pandemic currently, so everything is pretty much normal in the Martial Islands. There is no quarantine of any kind, but we have some issues with food and other essentials coming into the country. But it still works out for the most part. What an example. Now, I've got a whole bunch of questions to try to get through, so it's going to be like a speed dating thing. So I'm going to start with the big one, the big topic climate change. And you've been a climate champion for RMI for the Pacific and essentially for all small island developing states. So can you share your thoughts on global climate diplomacy? Is it working? Well, Karina, as you know, climate change, the climate change challenge is really, it brings to question the future of small island countries, especially Atoll nations, like the Martial Islands. And as you know, there are only four Atoll nations in the world, three of them in the Pacific, Martial Islands, Caterbys, and Tuvalu, and Maldives in the Indian oceans. And we're really on the front line of the climate change battle. So it makes sense for us to champion this issue locally and internationally. In the Martial Islands, as you know, wherever you stand in the country, you see the ocean. We're only at the highest point here is two meters above sea level. We have nowhere to run to or nowhere to hide, really. So we're at the mercy of the ocean and the weather. With respect to climate change diplomacy, I believe deeply in a multilateral approach to solving global world problems. And the battle against climate change is really one of the greatest of these problems. During my term as president of the Martial Islands, I took every opportunity available to me to share our issues, both bilaterally and multilaterally. I feel it was important to get the words out, to get support, to get people aware of what we're going through in our part of the world. I think we cannot leave these two chains and expect others to take our challenge. We have to take ownership of it and we have to leave from the front. And that is my belief we need to get out there and talk about this and try to resolve it. At home, we've also done and continue to do what we need, what we can to ensure of our resilience and even to do what we can to contribute to the global fight through some of the most aggressive renewable energy plans and also emission reduction efforts. So we're not just talking about this, but we're doing our part. But unless the world keeps its promise to pursue and could fade the efforts to limit global temperature, there is nothing we can do. Climate science predicts that by before the end of the century, countries like the Marshall Islands will be submerged underwater. And of course, we're having issues with our friends and allies. United States, of course, pulled out of the Paris Agreement. That was a disappointment for us. We hope that they will re-engage. This is an election here, so anything is possible. But in the Pacific region itself, the Pacific Rim powers are doing very little also to tackle the Pacific security threat, which is climate change. China on the other side is the world's largest coal producer. U.S. as we run from the Paris Agreement, Japan is promoting coal fire power. And Australia is the world's largest coal exporter. And it plans to export more coal in the future. So the actions of our friends and neighbors are clearly out of steps with our concerns for security in the region. And so we can't be disappointed, but I think we need to continue international diplomacy as far as climate change to bring solution as much as we can. Yeah, I mean, thank you. You articulated some very difficult challenges there. And talking about promises and taking responsibility, let's talk about the U.S. and pulling out of the Paris Accord. How optimistic are you that the U.S. will re-engage given that it is an election year? Yeah. Well, I mean, I suppose it depends on the change of administration. We are hopeful that there will be change so that issues like climate change can change and come to the forefront. Fortunately, though, for the various states and cities, they've continued their efforts to control emissions. And that has been a blessing for us. Even though nationally the U.S. has pulled that, the cities, big cities and states have continued to do what they can. And so we're hopeful that they will re-engage. I hope you're right. And I think I forgot to tell you that. And part of this life format is that we'll also get questions from the public. And so we have one. Yeah, so we have a question that's come in. And it's not about any other topics that I told you that we'd be talking about. It's about COVID. But I'd be interested in your views. And so somebody, and I don't know who it is, doesn't have a name here, said that they've read that the rate of Marshallese COVID infection on the U.S. mainland are higher than sort of the population rates. So why do you think that is given you've been in the Marshall Islands? Well, yeah, thank you. That's a very important concern for us. As you know, in Arkansas, I think that's where the rates are quite high. And I'm hearing 12% higher than other groups. And I think a lot of it is all, you know, it's community living style. I mean, we have large families in our homes. And so it's very difficult to isolate and to quarantine if there is a sick member in the family. So that's a lot to do with, I think, lifestyles and how we live as community members. And now, of course, there is also the issue of taking seriously the wearing masks and distancing. So distancing and all of these, I think we're still learning. And unfortunately, it's a little bit too late for many members of our communities. There is also issue with where people are working and support from employer like Tyson, for example, there has been some issues in terms of how they're taking care of their employees in this regard. Yeah, so it sounds like it's sort of the same issue everywhere. You know, the COVID virus is a collective problem and the solution requires an investment from everybody, individuals and from employers, institutions like. And while we're just on this topic, you know, what advice would you give to the Marshallese communities in Arkansas or in here in Hawaii? Well, you know, I think I would advise that we discontinue a lot of our community activities. I mean, we are a culture that comes together and we share in many aspects of our lives. And I think we need to be a little bit more careful in that respect so that we don't catch the virus or we don't spread it to other people that are part of our community. So we just need to refrain from usual activities. You know, we have a lot of birthday parties that bring people together and other ways of coming together. We need to put a hold on those for now. Yeah. Yeah, culturally it's very difficult and it's a real sacrifice. And I mean, I had this conversation with my mother. I'm always pointing her out. It was just people want to go to church and that was quite an obstacle to overcome. But I think slowly but surely we're getting it. So we have to remind our families and friends that they still have to continue to be be careful and to socially distance. So let's talk about women and leadership now, if that's okay. Yeah. So for those of you who don't know, which is most people, I guess, President Heine was the president of the Marshall Islands when I presented my credentials as a New Zealand's ambassador. And I was so nervous. I prepared my bilateral statement and had it work through capital and I got to wear the Kodawai, the feather cloak. And it was a first hand sort of master class and sponsorship because I remember you told me, you asked me if I'd ever done this before and it was the first time. And you just spoke to me very quietly in a very calming way before I had to stand off on a podium before your entire government and give my speech. So I just wanted to take the chance and say thank you for that, for your sponsorship and your kindness and support. And yeah, based on your experience as a minister, as a politician, as a mother, as an educator, can you share your thoughts on the main issues facing women in the Pacific region? Well, you know, that's a very important topic for me personally and, you know, and for many women. As you know, new responsibilities in our modern world call women to be everything to everyone and much more. And so to meet expectations as well as to be taken seriously, we have a responsibility to be sure that we are well prepared to take on these multiple roles, traditional and modern ones, but to also create systems and networks to support one another. I really believe that women supporting one another is a key to success in getting into our parliament. You know, I among many like-minded Marshallese and Pacific Island women, including yourself, Karina, we believe that the advancement of women and girls, you know, in our communities is correlated with the advancement of our people and nation and region. So it's very important for us to get to that level where women are living their full potential. In the political space, the Pacific sees the lowest participation rates in the world. I think only about 12 percent of parliamentarians are women. It's a complicated issue, but, you know, as you know, in many fields, including politics, women have to be twice as better as their male counterparts to be even considered or to be taken seriously. And so getting elected is just as hard as keeping the seat. We are voted out easier and, you know, for inconsequential reasons where, you know, men would probably not be considered out. They wouldn't be voted out for similar reasons. In the RMI, women's participation rate went from or regressed in the last election. We went from 10 percent in the national parliament to about right now 6 percent. Also in the mayoral level at the local government, it went from 10 percent to 3 percent. So I'm not sure whether my being president of anything to do with this impact. I hate to think that that's what happened, but we actually regress. And the consequences of this regression will be seen in years to come. You know, right now our women have one of the highest birth rate in the region and we continue to have high rates of domestic violence. And women are not economically employed or, you know, the employment level is quite low. So these are a reflection of where we are as a country and where we are as women in our country. So we have a lot of work to do. I think my being president was unexpected. It wasn't something that people expect. And I think the cultural current can be played for or against women. And in many cases, and in my case, you know, I was told that I shouldn't be president because I'm a woman. And so that played a lot into my re-election or not re-elected because many of our traditionalist consider that the post of our president should be reserved for men. So we still have those kind of beliefs and these are the struggles and challenges that women have to face. But we continue to push forward. So in many aspects of our government, women are in holding lots of important positions. So there are some improvements in those areas as well. But when it comes to national political institution, it seems to be still reserved for men. Yeah, it's certainly not an issue in the Marshall Islands only because you are, to date, the only female leader of any Pacific country. Within the region, Australia has had a female Prime Minister and New Zealand has had three. And I spoke about this issue just recently on a podcast and the host, a fantastic young Samoan guy based out of Brisbane, was genuinely shocked when I just rolled out these stats. And I know it's extremely complicated and you've certainly just outlined some of the issues. But, you know, I'd love to just hear your take on why you think there aren't more women in government roles just across the region. I mean, I know a lot of young people will be really shocked to hear you say that there are still some views in the Marshall Islands where people believe or men believe that the office of the President is reserved only for men. But across the region, we're very different cultures, two different languages. And yet sort of the stats say the same thing, there still aren't more women leaders. So yeah, in politics, why do you think that is? Well, I think it's really culturally driven. In many cases, we talk about 50% of our populations are women. There are more women than men in many of our communities. But when it comes to voting, we don't support each other. Many of the women would follow the voting patterns of their husbands or their uncles or their father or their brothers. And so they don't necessarily make their own choices when it comes to political choice. So until we get to the level where women are independently making their own political decisions and political choices, we'll continue to be where we are, I think. So there's a lot of work to do there. There certainly is. Amen to that. My team are telling me, I could talk to you all day, but we're only going to have 10 minutes. I'm going to skip to some of the questions that I'm really keen to know about. So Marshall Islands has diplomatic relations with Taiwan, but PRC China remains interested in the region, as you know, as you well know. And so can you please tell us a little bit about China's role in the Marshall Islands and whether you have any concerns or just views about the impact of Chinese activities in your country? Well, you know, as you know, Marshall Islands is one of the four Pacific Island countries that diplomatic ties with Taiwan. We were six, two years ago or a year ago, and now we're down to four. Just a year ago? Just a year ago, yeah, when the Solomon Islands and Peterbys switch over to China with PRC, now there remains only four, and we are four of the smaller countries in the region. All of the big countries are affiliated with PRC. So the presence of PRC is quite extensive in the Pacific. There is no question that China in the Marshall Islands has been quietly nourishing its influence in the private sector, in the Marshall Islands through the private sector, through dynamic projects. Among almost all of our small moms and pop stores are owned by PRC citizens here. And PRC's presence is more also pronounced in our fisheries sector here. So China continues to cultivate the interests among Marshallese leaders to switch diplomatic ties to the mainland. I think the public is more generally pro-Taiwanese. So I don't think that the switch is likely to take place soon, but one never knows. You know, my government never entertained this question, and hopefully the current government will not, and they will continue to nourish and expand our relationship with Taiwan. And what about your assessment of the US China rivalry in the Pacific and its impact on either the Marshall Islands or the region generally? Well, yeah, that's a very interesting question, because we see these two giants jumping into the Pacific, almost like jumping into a pool, the huge pool that is the Pacific region, and sending their ripples all across the ocean that affects, and those ripples come onto our shores, and we see that everywhere. Pacific Island countries are getting a lot of support from China. I think China is now spending in the last 10 years $1.8 billion in the region. And during these last 10 years, China became the second largest donor in the Pacific region right after Australia, over to Japan and New Zealand. So they've been making their marks here. Trade activities also increased with China, something like 12 folds. So they're making their presence here, and unfortunately the US and its allies are, I think they're a little bit too late or their efforts here are sporadic. They're not consistent. The level of engagement is not always there. The level and the type of engagement that Pacific leaders look for are not always there. So I think it's important for the US and its allies to rethink how they deal with Pacific leaders, to take them seriously and to look at their priorities seriously. Thank you for saying that so clearly because it's something that you know I've talked about a lot and that I've certainly said to both Chinese and American counterparts, but it's always good to hear directly from somebody who ran a whole country. And yeah, I guess in the last segment of this show, time goes really quickly. Yeah, I'd love to talk about the upcoming negotiations between the Marshall Islands and the US about renewing the financial provisions of the Compact Free Association. And obviously it's a huge an important issue for the Marshall Islands for the US and also for the state of Hawaii. So just generally what do you think the main challenges are in the negotiations and then more importantly I think what is the Marshall Islands trying to get out of these negotiations? Well, you know as you know the economic package under the Compact ends in 2023. So one of our asks in the negotiations would be to extend the economic package. We've been talking about that and I think the United States is amenable to the extension. It remains to be seen how long the extension would be. But there is also our interest in engaging the US on addressing the nuclear issue and bring to closure a lot of the issues there. Now one of our concern with these negotiations is that the United States might not be willing to put the nuclear issue on the table. So to me that's a red line for the RMI negotiating side. I think we need to make sure that that is stable otherwise we shouldn't be talking to the US if they're not willing to address the nuclear legacy. That is important and needs to be taken care of. It has been so long too long already and it has created trust issues between the two countries because the US hasn't been willing to settle this issue to the satisfaction of the Marshallist leadership. But yeah I think that's a major concern for me and I hope for the negotiating team. Another concern is the fact that we're negotiating online. You know these issues and all the negotiations are being done online and the US is hoping to wrap this up by December and I don't know whether they will have any face to face. To me that's a concern. I think such an important issue needs real face to face discussion. There are lots of issues to deal with here that would impact the relationship and the Marshall Islands into the future and deserve real serious discussions. Yeah indeed the modalities do make it really tricky and particularly with such an important negotiation and so you outlined two of the major concerns the nuclear issue and for those of you who are not aware the US conducted a series of nuclear tests from about 1955 to about 65. The Castle Bravo test is that right and there have been ongoing issues ever since due to radiation and it's severely and significantly affected the ecosystem there as well so that's the nuclear legacy and the other issues and modalities but I think it's only time for one last question unfortunately. I have lots of questions but just sticking with the coping negotiations and concerns what do you think the main challenges are facing Marshallese citizens here in Hawaii and how does that play into the negotiations and I guess what I'm looking for is sort of answers. How can they be addressed for the community here? Well yeah I think not only for Hawaii but in the other states where Marshallese or FAS residents are are living I think there is an issue of lack of protection for COVA residents all across the US in terms of their ability to access healthcare. At one point they were able to they were eligible to receive Medicare but then you know that went out and now there is the discussion on the I'm trying to remember public charge regulations that you know how are they going to treat FAS residents again that comes into question and people feel a little bit restless because they don't know what those public charge regulations would look like and how they would mean for for FAS citizens in the US. So this is a major concern and that created a lot of animicities for Micronesian residents in you know where they're residing in in Hawaii for example there are issues with housing medical care and people feel that FAS residents are thinking over some of what they should be eligible for or what they're meant for and so create animicities between groups and and I think it's unfair for the states to have to pick up the the tab for a lot of these issues that are federally created and so you know we see discrimination and and we understand we're the we're the last group of migrants to come to Hawaii for example so there is bound to be some discrimination but I think some of these other issues if there is protection of COVA residents by the US federal government in any of the states I think that would alleviate some of these issues that we're experiencing now. Dr. Heine, thank you so much for your insights and for joining us today and that was an extremely measured response I know that a few congressmen who would really appreciate those comments but thank you again you've always been so generous with your time for me and for everybody in in the region so um Komaltata and hopefully stay safe and hopefully we'll get to talk again soon and for everybody tuning in today thank you very much for uh for watching East West Centre Insights. Mahalo. Thank you. Thank you.