 On this episode of Skepticoke, a show about liars. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, of course he is. If anybody knows what counterintelligence is, it's not just about lying to get information. It's a chess game. And he says he hates to lose. Or maybe it's a show about truth tellers. What is true, and I'm actually being serious here, is that there's footage and records of objects in the skies that we don't know exactly what they are. Stick around my inside baseball deep dive into UFOs with my excellent guest, Rich Giordano, who's coming up next on Skepticoke. Welcome to Skepticoke where we explore controversial science and spirituality with leading researchers, thinkers, and their critics. I'm your host, Alex Akeris, and today we welcome Rich Giordano to Skepticoke. Rich is the creator of Goofan. Let me read this. The most original and entertaining show in its field of research. A show that mixes the good, the bad of both the paranormal community and the UFO field. And I know all that is true because Rich wrote it on his Patreon page, so. I did. But he is great, great. I'm super excited about this show. I think that it's going to be a fun one. Rich does offer a unique perspective. He's one of these guys who does kind of like me, follow the data where he thinks it needs to go. And he's pretty unedited, unreserved in terms of what he thinks that means. But I appreciate that and I appreciate what I sense is just a deep pursuit of the truth and wanting to know what things really are. So, Rich, terrific having you on. Thanks so much for joining me. Oh, yeah. Thanks for having me. This is great. I'm surprised we haven't done it sooner. Yeah. Hey, I had to find you, man. I had to find you, but I found you in such an interesting way in my own stumbling and bumbling and being duped, which I do get duped. I get duped all the time and I try not to get duped, but I do ultimately get duped. So that's going to be one of the things that we're going to talk about today, but we have to start with, give people a background on yourself, on Goofon and what you've been doing in this field for quite a while, right? Since 2004, yeah. It started out because I saw something. Well, I'm not going to go back into it. Let's just say this, that I've had a lifelong history of being interested in UFOs, the paranormal in general, even ghosts and things like that. So I started a show in 2005 called the AZ UFO show, and it went right through the roof and it was popular immediately on blog talk radio. And I just wanted to talk about my stuff, my experiences, not knowing what I was getting into really doing a live show like that. And hooked up with this guy in Arizona named Jeff Willis and we created the show and off we went and found out just through a by accident that there's people, and I would have found out anyway, but people are not as honest as you would think, especially people who have number one websites, radio shows and so on. So it kind of got me put on this track to find the truth about what goes on behind the scenes of ufology and the crusade has been going on ever since. The truth is what matters. Life is more interesting than lying about things. I think the world is more paranormal than normal. So I go on that where the truth is good enough for this field and that's what I do. I find people and their sightings and believe me, I've got over 20,000 hours behind the camera holding a camera and actually UFO hunting and stuff like that. So I know what I'm doing. I know how to read a video, analyze it and people generally just make misident, they misidentify what they see. Not a lot of hoaxers out there like there used to be, but they're still out there, excuse me. So this field has gotten a little bit more difficult the drones have really played a big part in it in the last five to six years because a lot of things look like drones now and the tic-tac is super popular as you know and everything seems to be a tic-tac. But it's really about the people in the field and the evidence and their stories and trying to break down what's really going on. Yeah, I think the people are super interesting and I think there's a lot of crossover when we start talking about people and motives and ulterior motives and deception and misinformation and disinformation. I think there's a lot of crossover with a lot of other fields. You talk about the UFO field and the UFO community which you are a part of but at the same time I see you bleeding over into other communities. I see you doing a show on near-death experience because you go, hey, this seems to be kind of connecting in consciousness. Or Stephen Greer is being interviewed by your buddy over there at their phase and he's all about consciousness and there's a bunch of other people. So that's more of the domain that I started in because I don't consider myself part of the UFO community but when I look back at the number of people that I've interviewed in the UFO community I've interviewed a lot of them but I always just approached it as, hey, I want to answer the biggest questions about life. Who am I? Why am I here? And I start doing that and I'm drawn into UFOs. So I don't know when people look at and kind of are still a little bit demeaning about the UFO community. I'm always like, what the fuck are you talking about? How is that not on your list of one of the top most important things to resolve one way or another. And now, you know, we're in a post-disclosure world. Whatever that means, we are in a mode where our beloved government has come out and said, oh no, this is totally real. So I just, we can pull that apart too but I just don't know how people kind of sometimes normies kind of get this attitude about the UFO community. The one thing we can say about the UFO community is, they were right. They were right all along. That's the headline from the last few years. What do you think about, in general, the UFO community or are you feeling identification with the UFO community? If you're asking me how I view the UFO community now. What does that mean to you when I say UFO community? What it means is it's people who generally have an interest in UFOs, aliens, abductions, cattle mutilations, you know, things that are related to the field. Now consciousness is making its way into the field where people have been talking about this for years, especially Greer. He's been talking about it forever and Grant Cameron and many, many others who were laughed at. And I said, what are you talking about, you know, aliens? You can't talk to aliens with your mind. You can't because I can't do it. And Lord knows I've tried. And so the community is people that are interested in the same things that are all tied into exactly what I just said, aliens, cattle mutilations, UFOs. And that's it. And the consciousness thing is something that, wow, we just heard Lou Elizondo say it might be about consciousness. And he was never talking like that. He was talking how UFOs were a threat. And we need to find out what they are, where they are, you know, how they got here, what do they want. And we don't have the technology to do it. And now he switched to where he's saying, it's very possible we can actually communicate with these things through consciousness, maybe possible psychic connections, maybe remote viewing. So it's an interesting turn and the community is really pulling on that and going with it, which surprises me, but it doesn't because we go through ups and downs throughout the years. And I'm almost in this 20 years and, you know, this will pass too. And something else will come up. Yeah, I wonder, I mean, there's so many ways to pull this thing apart. And I guess we just got to kind of flow with it as it goes. What concerns me is Lou Elizondo looks like Richard Doty 2.0 to me. Oh, yeah, yeah. Disinformation, misinformation. So from get go, you know, so why would we possibly trust anything that Lou Elizondo says? He's a professional liar. I mean, that's, if you ask him for his business card, that's what it says. I'm a spy for the United States government. That's where I've been my whole life. My job is to lie either on your behalf as an American citizen or sometimes against you. But so what concerns me is that when these guys start picking up on the narrative that I know is true, like consciousness and that whole thing, the reason that's true is because that's what the best scientific evidence shows. Right. If you put it in the lab and you, what the physicist said a hundred years ago in the observer effect, double slit experiment, the consciousness affects the outside world or perhaps consciousness is fundamental. You looked at near death experience. When people throw around remote viewing, which always amazes me because when people in the quote, unquote UFO community talk about remote viewing, they talk about it as if it's something other than the consciousness thing. I mean, you can't accept believe whatever in remote viewing in the SRI Stargate thing, which is like well established history. You can't believe that and still question the consciousness thing. That is the consciousness thing, right? I guess so. I have a hard time with it, but I guess so. I guess it is. Yeah. You know, to people claiming they can communicate with aliens is tough one for me because I tried it almost every day for four years and I've gotten nowhere. Now I say that, but then again, I had some incredible experiences soon after that, which where I consider dreams, lucid dreams at that where you wake up and you think you're up and something happens. You see an alien at the end of the bed or something whispers in your ear. You know, I'll be in your head before you wake up. What, you know, so you have these things that just draw you back in. It's like, how did that happen? You know, why did that happen? And never having the evidence to back it up. You know, I couldn't record it. You know, things just happen when they happen. And that's the thing. That's the problem I have when we're talking about consciousness because things seem to happen when you least expect it, at least for me. So I could be wrong and I accept that. I just need to know what everybody else is doing. How are they making these connections or are they all lying? Yeah, I don't want to get too sidetracked. But I mean, this is like fundamental to me because me like the position of science, mainstream science, which I think is a sigh up by the way, I'll preface that is the consciousness is an illusion that you rich are a product of your brain. You're an epiphenomenon of your brain. Your brain is this little body of Jell-O up there that's firing off and that's all there is and whatever you're making of that little story is just fake because it's just a firing of your brain. So remote viewing contradicts that it fundamentally shifts that paradigm. It falsifies it. It says, okay, though that can no longer be true. So everything that neuroscience has said that your brain is just your brain and it's physical and it doesn't create this consciousness. All that goes away when you have remote viewing that violates space and time. And I think a lot of people don't exactly make that connection. And then I've also heard you talk about near-death experience a little bit. I mean, I don't want to go there too much, but I got 100 shows on near-death experience with some of the top leading researchers, you know, cardiologists 20 years, you know, published in the Lancet, 200 peer-reviewed papers across the board. That stuff is also just real. But again, there's this battle scientifically because for that to be real, then a lot of other things that science likes to hold on to are false. But what I want to bring it back to in the UFO thing, when you say I don't believe people are talking to aliens through consciousness, okay, all right. But if we accept that consciousness is in play now and that it is somehow fundamental to this whole thing, then I think it just kind of changes the equation and the burden of proof shifts. Okay. Well, because I've asked people how to do it. I bought books on it. I've tried Greer's methods. And even Greer says, you know, if it doesn't happen to you, you know, within five or six, you know, times of trying, just keep trying. You're like, okay, yeah, because by then you'll feel stupid and you won't want to continue. I get it. Yeah. And I don't think just because it's part of our, you know, our conversation now means it's valid because I'm still having a hard time trying to get that connection. And I've done remote viewing and I consider myself an empath and somewhat have the ability to, you know, to have psychic abilities. You know what I mean? I mean, there's a lot of strange things and a lot of coincidences and synchronicities that I can't deny. And I've done it on the show. And we've had extremely good results with it. So, you know, it's not that I don't believe it. It's just hard for me to believe it if I can't do it. And just because it's part of the conversation doesn't mean it's valid. Don't you think so? Just because everybody's talking about it, it's just something new to talk about, I think. But where are these people that are doing it over and over again and how are they doing it? And I'm not just taking Greer's word for it. I get it. And you're kind of jumping to the next level, which a lot of people do, which is like, okay, then prove it, show me. And show me that it's the alien thing, you know? I kind of pull back and say, you know, where are we at in terms of just the way I always think of it, Rich, is as burden of proof. You know, where does the burden of proof lie? And like we were talking about, and I don't know how you feel about Lou Elizondo really and Richard Doty really, but it's like, when we have people who are proven professional liars, disinformation agents, to me, you know, the burden of proof becomes unbelievably off the charts overwhelming for them to establish the credibility in what they're saying. So that's what I mean like we're going to get into and hopefully we'll just talk. Let me stop there before I roll on. I said a bunch of shit now about Lou Elizondo, professional liar, professional spy, a disinformation agent or not? Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, of course he is. He said it himself. If anybody knows what counterintelligence is, it's not just about, you know, detecting lies and all this other stuff and, you know, lying to get information. It's a chess game. And he says he hates to lose. And that scares me because this guy knows how to manipulate and get what he wants. And when he doesn't, it's, it seems like he can be a pretty scary guy. And that we don't need in this field. Okay. But beautiful. And that's what I like that you're just so plainly honest. But when we process that back into this community or just more broadly, the conversation that we're having about this, he is just accepted by so, so many people and so many people that we generally think are credible. And there they are with, you know, quoting Lou Elizondo or here's what Lou has said or, you know, here's 60 minutes, not that we would ever trust 60 minutes, but to get to where you just said is a huge leap for so many people. Walk them through that a little bit so they can really get grounded in that. The guy is fake. The guy is like you said, the guy is playing chess with you. He's playing chess with counterintelligence with disinformation. Well, that's the thing. There's a lot of problems with Lou because he came out of nowhere. Nobody's, I never heard of the guy but apparently he was working with ATIP which was supposedly according to when they announced him on TTSA at the presser and he walks up on stage and introduced by DeLong. He's talking about ATIP being a UFO, you know, what do you call it, organization, secret organization to find actually UAPs, you know, government UFOs. That's not what ATIP is. ATIP was to locate and find our adversaries technology in our secured airspace. It said nothing to do with unidentified objects. It was all about our adversaries and their technology. OSAP, which was, you know, like the brother of ATIP apparently was the real UFO group and they were funded. ATIP really wasn't. And then Lou comes out and tells us all this stuff about ATIP and then we're all, you know, supposed to believe it just because he's a government guy. When did we start believing people in the government anyway? So that's why... Government intelligence. And he admits he was an intelligence agent. Counterintelligence, yeah. And you go through a lot of training to become that person but it's also the personality. And they choose very carefully on what type of person would be a counterintelligence agent. They vet these people like you wouldn't believe because they have to fake, you know, a reality for the adversaries and make them think that they're this person or that person. So when we see Lou and we just trust him like this, it scares me because why would you trust this person who's a professional liar? What is he doing that is furthering disclosure? Everything he's touched has turned to crap. That AOIMSG office that they opened up at the, you know, in the Pentagon inside the DOD has now been officially closed to the public. They are not going to disclose anything now. Did you hear about this? So that was supposed to be for the... They were supposed to report once a year to Congress what they found, any injuries from anybody in the government, pilots and whatnot. And now they're saying they're not going to disclose it at all. It's done. See, brother, you know so much stuff and I couldn't go so deep because I didn't know that. I didn't know that. I don't follow it that well. It just happened, yeah. Here it is for me. I'm going to pull back to Alex getting duped, you know. Do a lot of interviews, a lot of really top scientists have been duped by them, been duped by other people too. And I don't try and be duped and I try and get myself unduped when I can. But like I interviewed Leslie Cain. Yeah. I love Leslie Cain. I think she's awesome. She's good. I'm like, Leslie, you know, Leslie... So I'm going to back up. Not too much inside baseball. Leslie Cain and Ralph Blumenthal will be known as the two people who kind of broke the disclosure story. This is December 2017, New York Times front page. UFOs are real is the big announcement. And this is what precipitates this whole thing that we're talking about. A-Tip comes out of this. The tic-tac videos come out of this. The guys you've seen on 60 Minutes. Oh my God, it's flying it. Which is real, you know. It's flying around at these speeds and all the rest of that stuff. Which, to put it in context, which what they'll admit is these are the same things we've seen for 60 years that they said, no, no, no. And now they say, yes, yes, yes. So Leslie, I pushed her. I said, because to me, like Leslie, I go, why are you believing this? Number one, why are you believing... When they tell you this is unclassified, it's like, what? How is this unclassified? How does that kid who innocently takes a selfie in the submarine just to send to his girlfriend and there's something in the background? No, really, nothing. He gets sent to prison because it's classified. And this isn't classified. It's just the whole thing. Just the story was just so flimsy from the beginning. But my question, again, in terms of being duped, like Leslie, are you playing me here or did you really believe that? Ralph Blumenthal, veteran reporter for New York Times. Nice guy interviewed him on the show, wrote a book about John Mack, wrote the ultimate autobiography on John Mack. Seems very credible. Doesn't seem like professional liar. Doesn't have a history of being a professional liar. Does work for the New York Times, has for a long time. Same thing, like no, no, man, this is real. You know, we got the inside scoop. They brought us into the secret room and Lou Elizondo sat down with us and he's a whistleblower. And I'm like, how I even talked to Dolan. I haven't talked to Richard Dolan. I said, man, this is this is a political Psyop, right? I mean, come on. So here I got three people. Richard, the three people that I like and respect. I know you don't feel the exact same way about Dolan, but that's more complicated. Dolan, Leslie Kane, wrote one of the best influential books on UFOs, pilots and generals go on the record. Ralph Blumenthal, totally credible in my opinion. All these people are falling for Lou Elizondo. How are rich? Are you and I the only ones who kind of go, this is obviously bullshit. I don't, I don't get it. That's where I'm being duped. And I don't understand what the bigger game is. Yeah. A lot of people are going to like this answer. I'm giving them. It all has to do with their egos. And if you hook on to Lou Elizondo's star, you will be known more and more. And you will get more views, clicks and sell more books. And sadly, that's what I feel these people have gotten a, gotten a hold of Lou for. All about, because like I was just saying a minute ago, everything he touches doesn't really turn out the way he thinks it's going to work out. And to me, that is his plan from the beginning. He tells us one thing and another thing happens. And it's very frustrating. And that's why I think these people. Hitch on to him. I think they like that. He's one of the, if not the most popular thing right now. And that they can get more popular. And yeah, Dolan, for whatever reason, you know, came after my channel and we'll get into that maybe some other time, but he's been a part of hopes is. Not just one or two, but more. And it's pretty sad that Richard Dolan, a historian, has gotten, you know, into the hoaxing scene, but he made a lot of money interviewing a dead guy. So whatever. And Leslie King. You may, you know, respect her and I kind of do too, but she's in bed with Lou Elizondo, not literally, but you know, she's. She's seemingly taken his star status and. Making it hers. And I just feel it's, it's all about their egos. Because whatever they're doing isn't working. They tried to get that room inside the, you know, the Pentagon. And now it's not what he said it was going to be. Not that he made any promises, but we're going to have more transparency than we ever have. Wrong. Didn't happen. A tip. We don't even know if a tip was a real thing anymore. It was, but you know, they, they erased all of his emails. You know, now we can't have any evidence where, where is Lou's stack of work? What has he signed off on? What has he done? I don't have any evidence that he's done anything. So he's popular because he worked in the Pentagon with a tip and he sounds good. He talks well. He's a smart guy. He's not dumb. I mean, the guy's got a couple of degrees, I think in science or chemistry or something like that. And he plays it well. And he is paid by the government to say all this. And if you go back to when he came out originally, everything was a script. You could tell what he was doing. It was scripted. And I know they have their talking points and things like that, but he wouldn't answer certain things when he goes on shows. He gives you, not him, but his people give you the questions they want you to ask him. And if you go off that script, it's he'll never go back on your show again. So the fact that he does that and he's denying it, but we know for a fact it's true because I'm friends with people who had him on and they, you know, told him, hey, ask this, this and this, don't go off of that. It'll go very well for you. Come on. So I think everybody likes Lou because he's popular and you can get a lot of views, clicks and sell books and whatever. Sorry, that's what it is with Lou. I think that's why people love him. I don't think they trust him. I just think they like his popularity. Sadly. Well, it's kind of interesting what you're putting out there, Rich. And what I'm saying is weak and I know that. I know it. No, no, no, no. I think the other way, like one of the most interesting things I think you said, which just rings so true. Is you think Lou Elizondo became Lou Elizondo by accident? No way. That's what you said. Like, man, these guys are, are selected trained. One, they're selected, which is something that you said that I had never thought about. I think that's actually quite a brilliant insight reminder for all of us is that, you know, you don't get in that job unless you have certain personality traits. And those are honed and refined. But the other thing, and I don't know if you've thought about this, but I'd love to hear what you think is it takes a certain kind of that military intelligence mindset. Psychopathic, some people would call it mindset that is like, Hey, you want me on that hill. You need me on that hill, you know, kind of military. And we get that on some level because they're right on some level. We do want them to take care of us and we don't care how they do it. But on another level, we're like, fuck you guys. You guys got to obey the law. And they're like, fuck you. You don't really care. You just want us to do our job. So get out of the way and let me do my job. What do you think about that? The psychology, the sociopathic counterintelligence aspect. More narcissistic than anything. And I think you're right to do something like, you know, just go all balls out and not care what happens just as long as you get the results is a certain personality. Maybe it is sociopathic. I'm not sure. But we need people like Lou, right? Maybe not in ufology, but without people like Lou, a lot of stuff wouldn't get done. A lot of people wouldn't charge, you know, and, you know, go and, you know, it takes a certain personality to put your life out there, to put your reputation out there. And you're just hoping that people will back you up even if you fail. Well, he tried really hard. And that's what I'm seeing happening now with Lou. Like, hey, that office failed, but that's Lou. He tried his best. At least he's trying. At least he's making us talk about UFOs and he's brought it to mainstream media. Right. Yeah, he's got that persona. But what do we really know about the guy? Really? I don't know really that much about him. There was a movie that just came out about him, the documentary. I don't know if you saw it. It's called Who's Lou? And it goes, this guy, Manny, went through all public records on Lou and, you know, found out, you know, he moved here and there had about 15 businesses with his father all failed. What were they doing? You know, these businesses only lasted a few years. There's a certain type of person that would do this. And it's like get rich quick schemes, maybe, or, you know what I mean? It's that type of personality, that gung-ho who raw personality that Lou has. And it seems like he only wants to associate with those people because we've invited him on this show, third phase of moon. Greer wants to talk to him. He won't. Anybody who disagrees with them. And that scares me. So why does he only want to go on, you know, the shows that, that kisses ass and won't ask the hard questions. It's because he's got a lot to lose in his mind and he's got a job to do because he's being paid by who knows who, you know, the government probably or Christopher Mellon. But yeah, without that type of personality, ufology would have been a little boring the last couple of years. So I thank Lou for that. I thank him for his services. But he's really not doing all that great of a job if he asked me. And that's the scary thing. When you have somebody who has that type of personality, you don't know what you're going to get. You hope you get what you want. But there's going to be, it's like a, you know, China ball in a, what is that? A ball in a china shop or someone in a china shop. Yeah. Yeah. He's like that. That's what he reminds me of. And hey man, you know, I've got the discussion on mainstream media. Congratulations. So the last 10 months, yeah, there's been nothing on mainstream media. So it's all done. Are we done? You know, why this big sudden stop now? Yeah. It's weird. You know, Lou, very frustrating because he's all about himself, I think. So if we pull the lens back a little bit and you're doing the fantastic job of that in terms of, you know, because like I bounce around on a lot of different subjects on the show. Cause again, it's just my trying to figure out these answers to these questions and I'm just go where my fucking nose leads me rather than try and follow a particular line. Like one of the things you said just right there, and I think we did a good job of deconstructing it, which I haven't heard a lot of people really talk about that next level is like, you said it beautifully. You know, if you're going to have a charge that hill reality, which we do live in, then you need people like Lou. So it's not even the personality of Lou per se. It's the personality of that person, which is who is going to fill that role, that role, that counterintelligence role. So if I can, there's a whole other topic I wanted to talk about, but this is so interesting. I want to talk about Richard Doty because a lot of people don't understand when you say Richard Doty, I don't understand, you know, Richard Doty. I understand Lou Elizondo as Richard Jody, Doty 2.0. I mean, just plug the next one in there, you know, professional liar, professional disinformation agent, professional counterintelligence, throws out some things that are true, but also is, you know, throws out some incredibly wild things too. You know, the ET's favorite food is strawberry ice cream kind of thing where you're like, whoa, even if I was going to entertain anything that you said before, now are you just trying to screw with me? Are you just trying to be so over the top? And we're going to talk about that again as we get to Anjali because I'm not so sure that Anjali isn't talking about strawberry ice cream, but we'll get there. But here's where I got to call it. I mean, what is Stephen Greer doing up on stage with Richard Doty? Why is anyone still talking to Richard Doty? You know, I interviewed Colonel John Alexander. I don't believe much of what he says, but he brought up the topic of Richard Doty. He said, either he's lying or he ought to be in Leavenworth. And that's the one, that's truth. He should be in prison for what he's admitted doing. There's no question about it. He's admitted to crimes, so maybe the statute of limitation is over and he can't be convicted for what he did to Paul Benowitz and the rest of them. But those are crimes. Why do we lose sight of that? Why do we still have this guy on stage? Why the hell, how is Stephen Greer credible when he has Richard Doty up on stage? We'll talk in a minute about Michael Aquino. I don't know if you know him, the Satanist who was in the army for the longest time. You know, there's a lot of horrible people that are in have these positions in intelligence. But Stephen Greer, what else is he doing with Richard Doty up on stage with him? I don't know. I think because they're fascinated, he's talking. You know, it's like he was gone for a little bit, you know, and then he's making this resurgence. Of course, what a time to do it when ufology is at its all time most popular. So again, you know, Doty's out for Doty. But the reason I think people like Doty because they know what he is. It's like talking to somebody who used to be in the mob and they retired, you know, it's like now you get to hear all these cool stories and you know, he's allowed to talk about him. Maybe I don't know, not everything, but he also still has connections. But he's also still a bullshitter. I mean, this guy said some crazy stuff a couple of weeks ago and it just turned out to be all wrong. And it's like, why would he do that? Go on a show and say this and it's like just confusing everybody. That's typical Doty. And yes, I said, Lou Elizondo is Lou Doty because he is. He's Doty 2.0. Just more now in mainstream and you know, Twitter, Facebook, social media, all that stuff. So it gets more recognition now than ever. But that's what Doty is. Doty's also a professional liar and that's what he's doing. And what he did to that, Paul Benowitz he said the guy basically went insane thinking he was seeing aliens and whatnot and it wasn't. And Doty told him it was and then the guy started freaking out. Greer, why is Greer on stage with Doty? I don't know. That's a good question. I don't know. It's got to be because of connections and he can give Greer some things that he needed. And that's what Greer does. He also needs people for certain things and Doty probably had that. Probably had a connection for him so he gave him some time on stage. I don't know. I think it's very, very strange as well that anybody's talking to Doty as if he's great. It's very strange. I mean, because Doty, if you did like it's interesting what you said about the inside information you have from other people who've done interviews with Lou and Lou says I like the way you put it too. The way you put it has a real ring of truth to it. Ask this, this and this. Don't ask this, this and this. And then what you added is and then everything will be good for you. Everything will be okay. So it's not like you can't ask that shit because you can ask that shit because he just brushes it aside like flies in front of his face because he does that all. That's his job. He uses the leverage. If you want things to go well for you, I think that's a great insight. And I think that's what goes on with the Doty thing back to what you're saying about ego. The other thing is I think people just do a quick calculation on is this going to work out for me? You know, the way it works out for me is I play game. I play the game. I play ball with these folks because Doty, it's super easy to ask Doty the questions like I can't get over it like the latest when Doty appears on the show time UFO thing that a lot of people hate, a lot of people love, but I mean, like when I try to explain this to my wife, you know, I said, no, the guy stands there and says yeah, I did that to Paul Benowitz, but it's not my fault. They told me to do it. And it's like no, what you did is a crime. So whoever told you to do it, you need to go make public who they told you to do it because somebody needs to go to jail for this crime. But do we ever ask, well, who told you to do it? Will you swear an affidavit right now that you know who well, no, I'm not going to do that. So it's all just bullshit. It just unravels this bullshit. But why don't we ask just like the obvious next question? They do usually. It's just they hide behind that NDA. I signed an NDA can't talk about it crime or no, it's a crime. There's no it's I know. Yeah. But they're they're covered. You know that it's a crime, but the government will keep them out of prison if they want to. Do you know who Colonel Michael Aquino is? I know the name but I can't remember what he's about. Satanist and pedophile. So he's yeah. I never got into that guy at all. So he's a colonel. He was an intelligence officer in I don't know what his army or whatever. But you know kind of an important guy is connected to a lot of projects that were really pretty significant projects. But where he got busted was in San Francisco in the Presidio school pre-school thing. And he had him and his wife had molested all these kids and these kids came forward like 30 40 kids gave testimony to the police. They were able to get a search warrant. They went to they went to his house. It's everything that they said black walls, satanic altar you know kids porno kind of thing. All this stuff all this stuff is found you know and he's a satanist. He admits he's a satanist he's passed now. But you know I'm a satanist. He wrote the satanic you know chaplain's guide and all this stuff nasty nasty person but a colonel and still a colonel was never and then you know he was a guy who kind of tried to revive his reputation and all this stuff comes out so he went to the army and said hey I want you to expunge and publicly say that none of that stuff is real and somebody let like these things happen somebody in the army stood up and said fuck you and they wrote a report that people can go look at publicly it's the final report and says no we will not. We believe we have significant evidence that you did do these crimes that you did lie that you did molest these and we are not backing off that we may not be able to get the conviction that they saw it but we are not clearing your name you know I say all that because I think again a lot of people that listen into this conversation they just want to pick out the parts that they feel are comfortable that they can kind of you know yeah well some Pete got to break a couple legs and do omelets and stuff like that when you dig into this stuff there's potentially some very very dark aspects to this in what we call military intelligence that we don't even know how far it goes any thoughts on that? Well I mean it's nasty that's all I mean there's not all that stuff you know with the pedophile and all that stuff I mean that was even in Mufon you know their head of Mufon a few years ago and he was into that I mean I don't know why that is such a big thing but it seems like it is for whatever reason and I don't know if that goes into whatever satanic cult they're a part of or their belief but yeah it's it goes deeper than you would ever imagine it goes to the people who actually probably run the world you know those whoever they are the Illuminati you know and yeah I don't really get into that too much and all that stuff but it runs pretty deep from what I understand Okay man I've spent an hour pulling you into all these other things that I didn't even kind of totally give you a heads up we're going to talk about Anjali because that's what brought me to Gufon and your kind of excellent show where you got to watch this guy's show because it's a ride man you don't know where it's going to go and it goes in a million different places sometimes that are super fun and in this case what I found is it kind of answered a question for me because tell people who we can almost say was she's not passed but in a way she is passed tell us a brief sketch of the Anjali story and then how you unraveled it Believe it or not a very smart woman who was in intelligence worked with the FBI I think I mean she did she's an ex lover Pentagon too isn't Pentagon that's true with intelligence similar to Lou but she was more into the psychology of it than she's also a professional liar and all this stuff but she's also an author and an experiencer and has been talking about aliens since she was 6 years old let me just I can't go too far without kind of asking a question like even that is suspect right because there's some people have said hey we've looked into her past she was really just a secretary and then there's other people say hey when you look into anyone who's really legit in intelligence yeah they look like a secretary they look like they did nothing so it's we don't know which way to go with that but I don't want to bury the lead because how does Anjali make it to the public consciousness I mean tell people about the press conference I mean that's where most people first heard about Anjali yeah that's where I was just going you read my mind yeah so she's been you know into this talking to aliens since she was 6 years old so one day there's this video that pops up it was a live press conference that she made for herself she actually called all the news agencies and said I have a great announcement I'm gonna make in front of the Capitol or wherever she did it I think it was the Lincoln Memorial thank you I always get that I don't know why I say it wrong the Lincoln Memorial and it's going to be great well the mainstream media didn't show up and she's out there I think she was in a wheelchair as she was and some guy rolls around and she makes this announcement in front of you know six people her friends that she gathered there with cameras I mean the whole idea that I'm gonna send out a press release you know you or I could do that tomorrow and say hey we're gonna press release for Lincoln Memorial I mean why would we expect anyone to show up but continue exactly yeah and she's acting like she's talking to a lot of people you know scanning the crowd you know that's not there and what not and she's saying how there is an expedition that's going to be taking place six months from now which was last June or whatever and then in December she was gonna have a research team go out to this guy's property where he there's a mountain this this land that is on his property that he owns but on the land is this mountain this little tunnel that goes down to where aliens are living and she said she's talked to these tall whites and there's a couple of different type of aliens and what not and she explains how you know when you walk into it it's rocky and then it go and then it's seamless transition into their world you know whatever and then she says after several minutes whatever the experience she wound up back in the guy's name was Wayne who owned the property and she says wound up back on his couch in his house underneath an archway and but we come to find out that she's she takes Adderall and other mood inhibitors so she's on four prescribed things and also they took a very potent I don't know what kind of marijuana oil I don't know what you call it but it was this oil that I think made her have a reaction and I think she hallucinated at all it's a very strange story and Wayne has been going around saying that she had this experience it's so long I mean she met these people at a coffee shop apparently and then they got to talking and she spent eight hours with these people and apparently her side of the story is Wayne said he had this alien base under the mountain and he took her there and all this stuff happened you know she met the aliens talk to them you hit the high points there's this woman who kind of comes out of nowhere in terms of the UFO scene UFO community she shows up in a wheelchair and says I've met with the aliens and I'm going to bring a group of scientists back with me in six months and I'm going to get the whole story and we're going to blow the blow the top off this thing this is going to be disclosure on another level that you haven't seen before and this is just last year and then you go on your show and you say man I've been around this shit for a long time it's just bullshit it just isn't going to happen and she's going to invent some kind of story for why it won't happen and that will be so fast forward to her announcement and then you have a little bit of an interchange with her and then what you find out after that well you know immediately within minutes I said yeah exactly what you said I go there's no way it's not going to happen she's going to come up with an excuse that the mountain caved in or the government found it closed it down and of course something happened you know three months before she was supposed to go out there that she said Wayne is too sick from cancer and is calling the whole thing off because people are harassing him and trying to find out who he is and all this other stuff which that was true he did have cancer but he just came out recently finally one of these guys truth seekers found out who Wayne really was and he came on his show and said she is full of shit he came on your show he came on your show because no no he was on what about the guy who comes on your show and says because the show of your the goof on show that I listen to on the follow on to Anjali is you had just gotten off of an interview with Anjali where you had kind of confronted her in a nice way you're not like a real jerk to people or anything like that but you had just said hey Anjali yeah oh can't do it oh cancer huh that's really too bad you know and what I thought was interesting is like you learn this if you listen to true crime enough you know my wife's really into true crime so we watch true crime yeah it's like when somebody asks somebody about the crime and they go did you kill her and their answer is I'm a Christian I wouldn't do that or I love my they don't answer the question they answer kind of a related question and I thought when you played this clip Rich of you talking to Anjali that's the first thing that popped in my mind she doesn't answer the question she goes what do you want you know or something like that right because I go I go so Wayne has cancer huh and she goes what do you want Rich what do you want and that was on alien girls show where she was a guest there and yeah she went off on me and didn't answer the question and then you gotta call in who says I found Wayne and this is all bullshit there's a golf course he doesn't live out in the desert per se there's a golf course on his property there's a trail on his property there's no mountains there's no cave I found Wayne right that's a guy who calls into your show right that was a guy named Ryan who is a movie maker and all of that was was wrong he lied he made it all I am lied yeah the damn story it's so convoluted that's what I said you know if we're going to talk about Anjali it's really it goes all different directions so this guy Ryan said that he had this evidence and pictures of Wayne's property and Anjali's full of crap and listen and he didn't even interview the right person and he said he paid Wayne a thousand dollars for his information and we never got to hear the interview we never saw real pictures we saw Google Earth images of the area and he claimed he had these pictures so I called him out on his bullshit immediately and he just vanished he never came back he just fell off the planet because it was all lie and after that this guy Steven Cambian on Truthseekers got a hold of the real Wayne through the research of somebody named Charlie I can't remember Charlie wiser and she's a really good researcher and found the real Wayne and got the real Wayne on Truthseekers show just last week and he spilled the beans on Anjali and then Anjali came on Truthseekers show a few days later to rebut what Wayne said and she found a way to get out of the interview because Steven raised his voice at her and she said he was screaming at him which he wasn't she kept interrupting him every time he made a good point she'd interrupt him so she disconnected for ten minutes and I mean people are listening to this this is like one of the challenges to the UFO field that frustrates a lot of people and they just get halfway in and they go screw it turn on the ballgame I'm done you know I can't do it anymore but somewhere in there is where I think we have to be because like I haven't stayed up on this thing so I'm totally off on the story so please fill me in a little bit on what is the truth about Wayne what do you think at this point is the truth about Anjali and then I want to talk about the strawberry ice cream thing and what we really think you know is Anjali just serving up more strawberry ice cream she is a a writer and I believe she believes she has experiences now her personality mixed in with and you know it's true because she said it on air so I'm not slandering her she takes a lot of medications and when when I found out with five things that she was on I was like whoa that makes sense so you have somebody with this imagination since six years old talking about aliens she wrote a book and now doesn't charge for it she gives it away for free talking about her experience with aliens so what happened was Wayne came on Trude Seekers and said there's no alien base showed us a picture of the mountain it's not even a mountain it's a hill it's not even a hundred feet and and he called her out on the bullshit and that's it does Wayne know Anjali does he he did they met they really did meet but he didn't even know that she had the press conference he didn't know any of this see I think Anjali thought she could get away with this story and say it nobody would ever look into it they just figured we would just say ah just another story and not look into it but when somebody makes claims that they're going to get evidence that aliens are in a base underground mountain that's going to raise a lot of eyebrows and get people watching and I think she knew that of course she did she knew what she was doing so somebody like Ryan how do they factor because this is another you know who is somebody like Ryan just somebody who's nobody who just wants a little bit of blip of beyond your show for five minutes just to tell something that's yeah that's who Ryan was Ryan is a filmmaker and he's done it before he did it with Travis Walton you know trying to say he said he did an interview with Travis Walton which he did but he took the conversation and edited it to make it sound like they were talking about something else so when in one of the conversation in part of the conversation Ryan goes so did you guys oh I'm sorry let me backtrack he spoke with Mike the guy who supposedly faked it with Travis the driver when Travis Walton got you know abducted he drove away that was his best friend this is his best friend or his brother I thought no I think it's his best friend okay yeah just again to not get too much inside baseball another point where I've been duped I talked about Travis Walton as if it was real for a long time I think on your show it just kind of clued me into going and doing the research one of the most famous cases of all time Travis Walton he's in Arizona logging with a bunch of his buddies and the spaceship comes down it zaps him they think he's dead his friends drive off he's beamed up into the ship he's healed and five days later he shows up and all his buddies pass a lie detector test they're under suspicion for murder so clearly they wouldn't be lying because there's all this thing turns out things fake turns out that Travis made it up they staged it so that the other guys wouldn't know which is the best way to have witnesses of you stage it and show it and they really think it's real at some level and all the rest so the whole Travis Walton one of the foundational cases in the UFO lore is highly highly sus at this point so but with that go ahead and continue yeah so Ryan edited the conversation from Mike and saying did you guys hoax it and then you could you know almost tell that it was edited and he's like yeah we faked it you know so he just edited the conversation and made it work in his favor but that's what that Ryan guy did with Anjali story and the Wayne he didn't even have the right guy so he just tried to get his 15 minutes that's it so Ryan yeah he was a big waste of time wasted everybody's time and he came on the show drunk you know he was totally inebriated and slurring his words it was awful just awful but that's you know this is the problem when you have someone like Anjali making such great claims and not having any evidence and when you call her out on it and then three months later you're right she's still denying it saying you're not right the base is really there and she's still going on about it actually being real so best guess at this point is Anjali Ryan or is Anjali a dodie or something in between no Anjali is just a liar just a Ryan just a Ryan kind of because we don't think we don't think Ryan is a real operative we don't think Ryan is connected and has he's no body Anjali because the other thing that just again I'm totally accepting what you're saying she has these political connections she ran for office in South Dakota and she plays that down just so people know the way I found Anjali is I just kind of stumbled across the story I go this is ridiculous I look for interviews the first interview I find is Whitley Streber we talk about Whitley Streber in a minute I've had a couple interviews with him he's been on my show I've been on his show I love and respect Whitley Streber and he's been at it hasn't changed his story in 30 years you don't feel exactly the same way but I want to hear about that but the point is I find Anjali on Whitley Streber and Whitley Streber says the interview you're about to hear from me is different from everything else you're going to hear from this woman and she comes on and she does a great interview she's really compelling she's very composed she's very intelligent which again kind of rings with the dodie or you know Lou Elizondo very well spoke ran for political office in South Dakota that's not accident yeah they asked me to do it and I did it but I wouldn't take money it just rings of somebody who is somehow in some way connected and then has these intelligence so then we get to the rest of it and I'm like wow she is not a Ryan calls up drunk on the show to get with a hacked up she's not that are you sure she's just delusional and on drugs and all the rest that I mean isn't there because the kind of intelligence sometimes they do some stuff that looks really really stupid but it's part of the chess game right yeah yeah she's all she's just bullshit that's it there's nothing else there's no deep thinking you need to figure this one out there's you don't even need to do a lot of research to figure it out she is 100% making it all up and I don't know why it may be for a new career because she you know really can't function like she used to you know she does take a lot you know several medications prescribed to her and it's pretty scary now she just put a picture up saying these are I don't know I have it somewhere but it was a hoax that was made five years ago and somebody sent her this picture and she said those are the beings that's their craft this is by far them you know it's real and then you know we found out it was total bullshit it was it was a video made years ago and she took the still frame or somebody took a still frame and sent it to her and said is this them and she's like that is them she's just bullshit she's just a person a grifter you know somebody who wants their 15 minutes of fame that's it now a lot of people think her timing couldn't have been any better because as soon as the 180 days came and what you know that preliminary thing that came out last June 25th once that ended she came out like three four weeks later and now her and Lou have the same background basically you know almost did the same type of thing you know for the government it's what do you think about the people who looked into her background and says she was just a secretary don't pay any attention to that um I don't think she was well that was also Ryan who said that he's the one who found that out I don't know she didn't stay at her jobs that long she was only at them for you know maybe a couple years at most and then she would hop on somewhere else and I don't know if that's because you know she's a little unstable mentally and you know after a while maybe calling out sick or having issues with you know working with people I don't know but yeah she hopped around quite a bit because on Whitley's show she again her account sounded credible it goes back to me in terms of what you were saying about Lou is Lou Elizondo you listen to these people and you go wow he's really good tell me more I'm in a trance I can't stop listening that's how I felt listening to Anjali when she's talking about oh you know my mentor at the Pentagon one of the greatest you know women bosses I've ever had and she deserves so much credit and what we were doing was really doing counterintelligence psychological breakdowns of these people because we learned you know in Afghanistan and other places that if we didn't know our opponent on this deep psychological level then we were prone to make kind of mistakes and I'm going wow that was really amazing and then I hear this other thing oh no she's just a secretary she's faking it and it's like I don't know but again I'm not totally I can't be totally sold on like when you make the connection of her and Lou I keep wanting to go well Rich isn't that kind of pulling you the other way that there's a lot of different ops that they're running how do we know this isn't some sort of op in some way we just don't know you got to go with your gut sometimes and whatever your gut tells you is probably right in this field because if it looks like a duck and acts like a duck it's a duck and we see the same stuff with her that we do with many people Ryan Bledsoe and some other people who faked out their way through this field you keep bringing them up man set them up knock them down Ryan Bledsoe son of Chris Bledsoe and Chris I meant Christopher Bledsoe yeah Chris and Ryan yeah well well what do you think about father and son and what do you think about okay so so Grant Cameron Grant Cameron real I mean I've had it out with Grant a bunch of times because like I've been doing this consciousness thing for like a long time and again some of the top scientists you know because the consciousness thing where you go first is a scientist the parapsychology people the people like Dean Raiden who've brought in into the lab and did the experiment where you have the photon beam generator and then you have a guy who says okay can you affect the photon beam generator if you can affect the photon beam generator then all bets are off because that's not supposed to be able to happen consciousness is not supposed to be projected into the real world or we don't have the real world as science thinks we do so Dean Raiden does that and he proves what we knew for the last hundred years when you know Max Planck and Albert Einstein were battling it out and Einstein eventually said oh screw it you're right yeah it does affect it and this guy does the experiment so anyways that's where you start if you want to prove that stuff but then the point is if that's true then all this stuff just starts looking all this stuff just starts looking differently and I don't know my what's that looks bad you said you started taking a look at this stuff different doesn't look bad it just looks like with Grant Cameron the reason that I kind of got into it with Grant Cameron is the good ET versus bad ET and I did a show with Dolan on the good ET versus bad ET thing and Grant Cameron has done a bunch of research with this guy down in Miami who used to be friends and now he hates me Ray Hernandez who did this whole survey of people who've had experience and they got back this data on the ET contact experience and he said hey 80% of these people 80% of these people say you know what the experience was for the most part positive and I feel that it was spiritually transformative for me these people that say it's negative and some of them even say well you know over time I came to appreciate that there was something good about the experience so that data kind of aligns up with the near-death experience data that we have which is again more solid they've done it in the hospital where I don't want to go into that I don't want to like bore you but if you ever want to know about near-death experience call me and I'll tell you about the science because they've proved it in hospitals in the cardiac arrest world where they saw writing something on top of the light fixtures and people in church praying and what the doctors were saying they do that but the simplest experiment if you ever want to talk to people about near-death experience who are non-believers is they did this one is for the near-death experience science you're going to want to look at the science that's done in hospital because if you interview people 20 years after they've had it all sorts of stuff so what they do is they go into hospital and you get checked into the cardiac arrest ward because you're going to have a heart attack when you come into the hospital this guy is ready to go he had too many beef sandwiches so the woman walks up in this case Dr. Penny Sartori again interviewed on the show incredibly well-credentialed published peer-reviewed papers and she goes hey Rich nice guy I wish the best for you buddy but if you do have that heart attack can I talk to you after and you say oh okay yeah you mean if I live right yeah yeah if you live so she does that she goes in she interviews all the people who are admitted to the cardiac arrest ward then she goes back and finds the one that do have a heart attack and like a lot of people don't know this but if you have a cardiac arrest heart attack even in a well-equipped hospital she was in Britain when she was doing this you don't get like resuscitated like immediately you don't like come back to life like ten seconds later it's like two three minutes maybe more and they you know have to call in the team and they bring in the cart and they adjust the things they put the first they start just pumping see if that works then that doesn't work it's a process it's it's minutes long and we know what happens to your brain during that process we have tons of 60 years of data of what your EEG looks like when your heart stops within 10 to 15 seconds most people it is completely flat line and you'll hear other stuff but those are people who are just trying to cloud the cloud the issue that is the fact that is a medical fact talk to anyone who knows that data I've talked to many back to Penny so what Penny does now is you've been resuscitated rich and she goes up to you and she says great remember me we talked when you came in can I ask you some questions about your resuscitation and like the people who didn't have a near-death experience go lady what are you talking about I died didn't you hear I died I was gone for 30 minutes there's nothing I was it was black and then I was back to life okay she goes well just tell me what you think happened tell me your best guess you know so they go okay and they start saying this stuff like out of a TV show right yeah then she goes over to this other group of people in the same group you know she has her control that's our control group then she goes to people who have a near-death experience she doesn't know it at the time but she says hey tell me what happened during your resuscitation they go oh my god you wouldn't believe it I saw everything and it was crazy because I was outside of my body and the first thing you know they wheel in this cart and there's this crazy hat on that was like all orange and I don't know what the heck he was doing but he jumped on me and then they did the paddle and they somehow got it wrong and they had to bring in another and he tells you boom boom boom boom boom all these things that you wouldn't see in a TV show that most people don't know happen and they get it right point after point well this is in simple terms the best evidence we have that consciousness survives bodily death again the reason that's a little bit it doesn't you can't say for a little bit we don't know right we don't know but we know it's at least for a little bit and we know that that is a complete departure from what neuroscience says when you went to school when I went to school and the kids they just still to this day they say no no no no that that couldn't happen that's can't possibly happen your brain is just a pilot it can't possibly happen that way well they're just they're just running a game in the same way they're talking about all this other stuff they're running an op because they just don't want to shift for whatever reasons we can get into that's the reality of the near-death experience that's how they know it's real I mean when you that's pretty solid science you know sure is people seeing what's going on around them and they're dead I don't know how you can explain it there's no other way other than your conscious conscious mind consciousness exists after you're gone for how long I don't know but well here's the rest of the story and I appreciate you kind of listening to it I'm talking to Grant Cameron and Grant Cameron has now become and he's known me for a long time and he's been influenced by a lot of my shows and a lot of my interviews because he didn't know about a lot of this stuff so he starts on this consciousness thing and he's like he's like a convert you know he's like a religious convert he's like it's all consciousness it's all good it's all God it's all light it's all perfect and I'm like well not necessarily I mean there's some people who are saying they're getting raped by aliens and we don't know if that's true or not but if it is true in any way we wouldn't associate that with being all light in love and we got a lot of this other stuff out there that we wouldn't necessarily throw in the light and love category so don't we need to be a little more nuanced we need to dig a little bit further no there's no such thing as evil it's all you know he's a total convert at this point about the consciousness thing and that's what kind of irks me a little bit because it's like hey you know that's not that just doesn't fit the data it doesn't fit the scientific data so why do you think he does that though because he's a believer no he believes that it's a religious thing I know but he doesn't believe there's any negative stuff even though people are saying that how does he not know no he says it's all their perception oh come on and it's all perception the other way too dude you know what I mean that's what I would tell not you dude him dude you know what I mean it's all perception so it's all perception both positively and negatively so how could he say that it can't be one-sided that's what frustrates me about grand Cameron he went from nuts and bolts to this and yeah it's weird but guys I didn't mean to interrupt no no no I want you to interrupt please because you can see if you don't interrupt me you're going to have a hard time here but so grant Cameron to finish the story right grant Cameron is driving down to Florida and he says well I'll just stop off and see my buddy Chris Bledsoe and he sees Chris Bledsoe and he says what happens in the backyard and the dog and the blood and all that stuff and he's either flat out freaking lioness ass off and making up a story which isn't exactly consistent with who grant Cameron is I mean maybe it is maybe it isn't but it isn't doesn't fit the pattern of grant Cameron or those things really happened you know what I mean his perception that's what it is yeah because I've heard stories there was a guy science Bob is what they call him and he spent five days over at Bledsoe's house and said all this stuff it really did happen to him and they saw the orbs and this and that and I'm like well where's the video and we didn't get it on video and I'm like so how do you know you weren't being duped how do you know it wasn't his son creating this stuff and all that and nope nope it definitely you had to be there you had to be there and I'm like I just don't buy it but I think that these guys want to believe in it so badly and I think what they're really doing is having dreams and I think they're making their dreams and the stories that's it that's what I think is really going on with Bledsoe's I think he originally had an experience the first that one time and then after that you know he disappeared for a while then all of a sudden he came back and came out with this story that he's being visited with a connection and all of a sudden then his son I mean it's just one thing after another and when you see the evidence it's awful and God forbid you say anything negatively about it you're wrong you don't know what you're talking about I'm like I've got more time knowing how to what's on a video and recorded the same stuff I know what you're doing so it's all bullshit with him my opinion I'm not sure and I mean that in literally I'm just not sure I'm sure well sorry I'm sure what do you think of Diana Walsh-Basulka her American Cosmic I didn't get into studying her enough to say either way from what I've seen friends with Chris Bledsoe good friends, family like her story she's a professor of religion at North Carolina something or other not UNC but another one of the UNC schools respected highly regarded in her field and she's investigating Catholic visions of these saints and nuns from hundreds of years ago and she shows her thing to some guy and he goes that's a UFO encounter she goes what are you talking about it's this nun from 300 years ago it just is exactly like a UFO encounter so she's extremely bright and she goes I gotta start investigating this there turns out to be a UFO conference closer to her house she drives there and one of the guys presenting is Chris Bledsoe and she gets to be friends with Chris they have kids who are kind of the same age kids start getting to know each other they drive, they meet I don't know Diana Walsh-Basulka does not strike me as a bullshitter and a liar and her connections like to Jacques Valet whatever you think about Jacques Valet doesn't impress me as a bullshitter a liar and he's kind of standing up for Diana Walsh-Basulka Diana Walsh-Basulka says no Chris Bledsoe is the real deal and all this other stuff so did you know that or what do you think of that I recall it and I just brushed it off as people just don't know they don't know I definitely remember saying that about her she just doesn't know she may sound smart like a lot of these people sound smart are smart they say the right things but they are still human they still have emotions they still make mistakes and I think it's something that that they want to believe in so badly that they won't accept any other answer unfortunately you know I got to tell you Rich that doesn't exactly fit her story because she's kind of a researcher and takes this research approach to it do you know when she goes out to the desert and she finds the stuff she finds the do you know the Tyler story and all that Tyler who so Diana Walsh-Basulka gets into the UFO thing meets Chris Bledsoe and she starts going holy crap what if Catholic study stuff that I've been doing and you can kind of trace her history just like you said you can trace the history of Lou Elizondo and it's all military intelligence, counterintelligence you trace her history and it's all no she's legitimate professor of religion that should be just kind of nothing you know in the bigger world she gets onto this story and she doesn't let go she goes out to another conference and meets Jacques Vallet and Jacques Vallet personally takes her around Silicon Valley because he likes her and says you know da da da da and here's what I found in this net she meets up with this guy named Tyler and Tyler is it's his pseudonym Tyler Durden from Fight Club but Tyler says you know what I've done I've actually found craft pieces tiny little pieces in the desert I've reverse engineered them and filed patents on them and I made a ton of money and she says the one thing I know about Tyler is he did dress in $1,000 suits he did call lear jets like their ubers and they would private jet would land and he'd take off and he did buy us lunch me and my buddy at the Ritz for $1,000 so he is he does seem to have a lot of money and he was out there with us in the desert and we all together found you know these little pieces of whatever they are which Jacques Vallet has said that he has found too so that is the full more full story of Diana Walsh Posulka and it does kind of make a difference in terms of what Chris Bledsoe's saying and especially when you grant Cameron I mean such a maze such a hall of mirrors but like I was saying rather than just go turn on the ballgame I think we have to kind of go through the hall of mirrors the best we can and you're doing it I'm not you know this is kind of switched over this interview but you're doing it so we're just kind of sharing what we've learned kind of things I just know that you know whatever she is a writer and of religious things and she has a degree and all that but what does she have a degree in she's a professor isn't she of religious religious studies right okay it doesn't mean she would know what UFOs look like on video or what a medal would be I mean she's taking somebody else's word for it yeah you know I don't know I've seen so much and I'd have to look into her a little more I definitely know who she is I just have so many hours in the day doing you know all different things there's no way you can get to everybody but I'm trying but yeah I don't know I have to ask my friend he's done a lot of work about Diana and I remember him not not believing her calling her out on her bullshit he said so I'm gonna I'll talk to him and get more information on her but that's the problem I find just because somebody's really smart has a degree doesn't mean they know what they're talking about when it comes to aliens UFOs medals videos the actual proof and a lot of people and a lot of people lie just because they can they like it did their narcissist maybe or they like the attention you know yeah I don't know man well the flip side I get you I totally get you and you're fighting the good fight and they're trying to be fair minded and figuring this out and you're not like a a skeptic in the kind of classical way of just piss on everything kind of thing but I gotta tell you everybody's gonna say that though this guy doesn't believe anything you know because every time I've asked for proof and and try to get the truth you know and and people fail every single time so I just think we have to be careful with that I spent you know yeah first five years of this show working with talking to skeptics quote-unquote skeptics back in the day when there was the James Randy thing I don't remember way back in the day yeah of course you know and one of my favorite guys you know really the magician yeah you the amazing Randy you kind of believe him or you see him as an up you talking to the amazing Randy's he debunks everything well he did he's passed but he was fake he wasn't real wait are we talking about the same thing James James Randy so you kind of think Randy was was real you're talking about the magician the guy who's Randy Research Institute or whatever they call it yeah okay yeah what do you mean he's a bullshitter he he debunked he was a magician he knew how all the tricks were being done oh man okay so you gotta do what don't I know so that's an hour that's an hour yeah all right yeah why would have had him on the show I had him on my show way back in the day no way and that's awesome so the thing about Randy is I mean one he kind of admitted he was a liar and he just said that while I lie it's kind of a Lou Elizondo thing said I lie for the right reasons but what you want to look into just as a starting point with Randy is his claim you know like Randy's whole story same way that we're talking about this other stuff you know what Randy's story was his claim was that he had this like off the charts IQ even though he had never been tested he had like this special card at the library that let him see these secret documents and then he went on to say that he was working with the local police to try and trap these young kids who were making sexual prank calls to him oh wow I don't know about that look it up they got the they have the he went to court so there's court documents on this wow but what it starts to look like is all these other things we've seen like when you said the the pedophile thing and the entrapment and you know what we now know about Jeffrey Epstein is hey if you want to control somebody what you want to do is get some dirt on them some really bad dirt that would kind of destroy him now Randy later comes out and says hey I'm a gay man I was a closeted gay man for the longest time and all the rest that now he never admitted he never I don't know if you want to say admitted that but then how does that that fit back into the story he said yeah these darn 14 year old boys were calling me and we're having sexually supposed to conversations and the police asked me to infiltrate who was making these calls oh my goodness that doesn't really hold up very well and it fits more into the story of this guy becomes a compromised individual that then they can go and do the you know debunking kind of thing because the people he debunks and stuff like that and like if we get into it we ever have that our own conversation about it you know I'll tell you about the Cambridge biologist who I interviewed who proved all of his stuff and when I approached Randy about it in the million dollar challenge and he just kind of got all mad and just went away you know but wow the skeptic thing is really really interesting and from what you're saying you don't quite know what it's about it's about a lot of the same things that the UFO skeptic thing was where it was an op you know some of it was an op right back in the day of course yeah they want to see what the public is going to do you know how they react that's what I think happens I think they test us to see what we'll believe and what we won't and the weird thing is when I was in California last year we walked up and down the Santa Monica pier and we were talking to people asking them if they know what a UAP is and you know they were trying to change this UFO to UAP and everybody talk about you know let's say UAP I agree so when we were asking people do you know what a UAP is and they said what you know nobody knew so the public didn't know what a UAP was then also what other people were saying when we told them oh it means unidentified aerial phenomenon they'd be you know aliens and they were like yeah yeah it's like UFO and they were like oh aren't aliens going to attack us soon or something and everybody thinks because of the luminous threat and saying it for years that there was going to be an alien invasion it's very weird see now and that's that's what they did they got the public believing even my parents said the same thing my dad goes yeah I saw that guy again saying aliens are coming and shit it's ridiculous and I'm like ah maybe true you know so even though he didn't say aliens are coming it's so funny how people interpret it well it's like they're market testing you know it's like they're doing focus groups focus groups let's focus group UAP throw it out there see what happens because that's the other thing I think I'll ask you this I think that sometimes assume that there's more intelligence in intelligence than there really is a lot of this is just you know throw the shit up against the wall and see what sticks kind of thing yeah it's exactly what it is that's what Lou's doing now and now you know he's going around on these podcasts that don't even have a thousand subscribers and going on other ones that have you know a hundred thousand he's hitting all areas but he's not going to the other side that'll ask the hard questions so that scares us uh rich as we kind of head towards the the finish line here and I appreciate you just kind of sharing all this what's kind of got your what's kind of got your interest kind of on the immediate short term and longer term you know what has your interest we talked about consciousness which is kind of pulling you in a different direction but what's in the immediate radar and what's longer term the immediate radar now is the interest in what's being said now by Elizondo and the other people people that are going on mainstream media and all the outlets they're saying that we are worried which this was said back in the 50s we're worried about the private corporations the you know the black budget programs getting this technology and detaching themselves from the government and doing something nefarious with this technology so the government's actually very worried that the people they're paying privately funded black up thing whatever they're afraid that they have technology they don't even know about and can be used against them so they're having an issue with these private corporations now that's why they always kept their eye on Elon Musk you know they didn't want him to get too big or too good you know because we don't want them to take over or make their own country or do something nefarious with this technology that's a very very interesting point man you're digging in some interesting wells what do you think about I can't resist you know we could just go on for hours probably but Danny Sheehan has said that has said that almost exact same thing that there are these other entities this breakaway civilization kind of thing or breakaway military power he is on record with saying that it's for sure an op is any of it true and I'll throw one other piece on the table there 9-11 directed energy weapon I mean it does look like there is some exotic technology that was in play there and there is if there was who possesses that technology and that was 20 years ago what do they possess now and it adds legitimacy to the thought the thought experiment that if someone did possess that or broke away with that what would that mean it's a lot to unravel tell us where you're at where does the current current thinking from gufan on that well the current thinking is that the tic-tac weapon a hypersonic weapon and can probably I think it's hours after all forever I was saying it's probably China because they gave us those drones those DJI DJI drones to the military and they were infiltrating us with the drones and we didn't even know it which is why we stopped having contract with DJI but I thought it was China I actually now think it's us that we have these weapons we don't even know about it the tic-tac I think is probably a breakaway company that is testing this stuff on our own military the best and the best of the best who would you want to test it on and if they have this technology holy mackerel if Putin decided he wanted to launch 7600 you know warheads at us we could take him out as soon as they leave the silo you know so that's probably what's going on in some way or another there's so many different levels on this and we could never stop but are you aware of the EMI electromagnetic interference attack on the cruise ship I live here in San Diego off the coast of San Diego this was like national news the ship winds up dead in the water everything electrical on the ship is fried and they tie it back to well if you believe the people but I mean something happened there was an EMI attack on that ship people go look it up China right so they tie it back and they say hey China was saber rattling with hey we're working on this and this was while ago I forget but it's probably 20 years or whatever it would kind of fit in your story and that's like something people could kind of ground themselves on the thing about the tic-tac when you go there again how do you process that what you just said which I disagree with you on but respectfully well I don't even know yet because the consciousness component you know the consciousness component I interviewed the guy do you know who Kevin Day is in that whole thing yeah he was the radar guy so I interviewed him on the show interesting guy and do you know about his consciousness thing do you know about the valet Davis effect so Valet Jacques Valet and Davis apologize I forget the guy's name PhD they did this broader study and Jacques Valet for people who know you know he's the guy who was portrayed in the Close Encounters movie he's this brilliant brilliant brilliant PhD computer scientist made a ton of money in Silicon Valley as a venture capitalist legitimately you can go look at the companies and stuff like that it's not like fake setup kind of stuff and he has these metals that he's collected from these sites because he's one of the top UFO researchers has been for years and years 30 years whatever and the reason that's important with the tic-tac thing is and I just want you to respond to this small part of it do you remember the part of the tic-tac thing and Kevin Day verifies this is they had this secret coordinate that they were all going to meet at you know these planes are flying at supersonic speed hey go out 30 miles over here and we'll all meet and they go there to meet and there's the tic-tac there's ET there's the UFO and the only way that that ET can know that is consciousness reading minds wrong okay remote viewing then because you're wrong with remote viewing wrong tell me I'll tell you why I tell you why I'm joking a little bit all right so if it's if it's a let's say it's ours okay it's not ET and you know this this technology is being tested on favor and on our navy and the pilots without them knowing maybe not even the admiral of the ship knowing or whatever but don't you think it was planned like they knew where they were going to go because they had the information sent another tic-tac over their way maybe it wasn't the same one it could have been a different one you see that's why I have a problem with the story because they want to make it into consciousness so bad but why can't it just be one of the hundreds that they said they saw just another one there and they knew where he was going to go anyway because it was part of the routine so two things here and this is kind of the thing that I guess I was calling you on before and I'd call you on again is you can't be a remote if you're a remote viewing guy which you are if you're an empath which you are if you believe in psychic stuff which you do then you have a different Occam's razor than the rest of these guys and you can't then jump on to the other side and say there's no way they could know that because you're already in that soup you're already saying that you're already giving the fact that if it is ET of course ET has this ability to enter this extended consciousness realm and do the remote viewing ten times better a hundred times better than rich can do it right so not saying that we can definitively say one way or another but you can't use that excuse you can't go back and say well there's no no way ET would know that because you're already admitted you know remember how put off is part of the remote viewing project right how put off is stanford research institute stargate mk ultra which it was a sub project mk ultra a lot of people don't know that stargate was a sub project and Sydney Gottlieb you know the kind of us's Mengele like if you listen to how put off and Russell targ they say oh yeah Sydney wanted to do this and but Sydney was their boss so anyone who has doubts that was an mk ultra program it was but what do you think about my pushback there is you're already in the soup buddy I mean if you're believing a remote viewing then why not I didn't I said I I've done remote viewing and had good success with it I mean but I mean some people are just really good at dissecting things in real time to where it's not psychic ability it's really guessing it's a guessing game it's high probability is what I think and yeah I know it's strange I could tell you a story about remote viewing that I did but it doesn't really matter because you got these guys are flying their jets and if ET was able to have this ability to know where they're going to go I always go to Occam's razor like you said earlier the most logical explanation the simplest one is the answer and that's they knew their course of action they knew where they were going to go I don't know you get my point I get the point because here's the most logical thing yeah it's exact you can't say you can no longer say rich most logical because you say you do remote viewing and you know it works which has been verified in the lab that it works you're not the only one out there saying it right if you can remote you then you can know where this coordinate is I'll just finish the story with Kevin Day because it's super alright fascinating guy again interviewed the guy guy feels totally legit to me because he's his experience was number one the mental consciousness thing is I don't know if you know this but the tic-tac whatever it was was trailing the ship for seven days and I said Kevin because do you know the screened memory reports on the abduction you know people say I you know I was walking down the stairs my wife was having an incredibly traumatic experience with ET and suddenly my mind just said this is nothing go back upstairs and go to bed and I went back upstairs and I went to bed so this is a common thing whether you believe it or not so I asked Kevin I go Kevin you are top gun top dog radar guy these things are trailing you for seven days and you don't mention it to the CEO and he goes yeah that is kind of strange isn't it so then what happens is he actually goes up top to take a look at some point and he looks through the glasses and he has this experience that traumatizes him he comes back to San Diego he retires from the military and he goes into the VA he says hey man I can't do anything I have kind of PTSD but it's not really PTSD and then he finds out Jacques Vallée Davis effects where they've said that people can just be part of a UFO sighting and their life just kind of falls apart it's just they can't even process it it just becomes kind of traumatic and he said this is Kevin Day saying when I found that that provided me a pathway towards relief because I could now understand that maybe just that encounter of just looking through the lens might have had an effect on me I just throw it out there for what it's worth yeah well Kevin Day should have had psych analysis done to him because that guy lost his mind because nobody would believe him he literally got into drugs and alcohol lost his family lost everything because he said and this was in the documentary or the TV show whatever he said because nobody believed him and it was driving him nuts it drove him to drink and do other things I'm like that's the kind of guy we have running radar in our military you know he was that unstable even then because he didn't report the UFO that was following them for seven days why because I think he was interested in what it was I don't think he wanted to tell anybody I don't know or he had this thing happen to him from the aliens just by observing you know possible that's his claim and again they call it that because they've documented that over and over again but my understanding from my memory Kevin Day comes back from that thing and he's boom he's out of there he retires from the Navy and that's when the things start happening but I don't know he started losing it all because nobody believed him that's what he said and he walked into a bar to get a drink I don't know what it was and he saw on the television that Lou Elizondo was talking about the Tic Tac well I don't know about that because when I interviewed him and I have it on record he says hey man some of this stuff I can't talk about because these guys from the history channel we know who that is Lou Elizondo are coming out and this is going to be a big thing and they want me to be a part of it and he was genuinely kind of again what does that fit into you know that fits into you know somebody who isn't on the inside but somebody who maybe has a real experience that they're trying to shape in a certain way or control that's my read of it I don't know no anything's possible you're right we just don't know everything I always use the Occam's razor to simplest explanations got to be it most of the time but sometimes we'll never know we'll never have the answers we're looking for sadly okay final question because you can again knocked out of the park with the first the prior final question so that's the short term stuff and it's fascinating that you're looking at that longer term where do you think this Goofon thing which is the name of your YouTube channel and people really need to check it out it is as we said at the very beginning entertaining is crap I mean this guy I got to say you're not 100% on your game when we turned on the mic you said you had a little bit of an upset stomach and you're usually so positive in bringing it humor in bringing entertainment you got voices that you do and all the rest of stuff so people tuned in they might see a little bit different you more entertaining you down with the info but let me turn it back to that last question longer term how could I do all what I do here it's different I mean this is a little it's an interview when I'm on my show it's more of a I'm not saying I'm doing entertaining I'm more of myself I mean this is me when we're just talking but on my show I'm playing videos I'm playing music you know I'm talking to the crowd it's a whole different environment I get you man I'm not I'm not criticizing no I know I just want people to know that they should tune into Goofon because it's a load of fun and they're really going to enjoy it it's different than us kind of sloshing through slogging through this kind of stuff so longer term where are you going Rich do you find going where do you see this thing headed for you in terms of where this research is going to lead well that's the best thing about doing what I do and being in this field you never know where it's going I don't really have a goal other than to just keep doing what I'm doing and that's talking about anything that happens in you know in our field whether it's Lou coming out with a goal in or Greer or somebody brand new we're going to talk about it analyze and study it we look at videos we analyze those you know and I show people some of my stuff and you know we laugh at that so yeah and then we interact with the audience I have two shows you know the Goofon the original and Goofon lives where we have the after show and I bring in the audience that stuff I just talked about so I'm trying to bring more of the public in that's the long term is to give the public a voice they never had and be comfortable coming out when they do it and a lot of people like coming on on Goofon because they can be themselves you know a lot of these shows are really stuffy and they're super proper and you've got to wear a tie and you know and you know wearing a hat would never happen on these shows but they get intimidated by that and I think having a more relaxed atmosphere like a just talking you know at dinner or you know just hang it out that's kind of what I want to bring long term and I think I bring that since day one but I want to bring the public in and that's it get to hear their stories well great like I said at the beginning you know fantastic I don't know why it doesn't have a million subscribers it should it's great I know I appreciate it there we go that's rich so it's fun doing it this way because I thought it could play out this way where we could talk about stuff that we don't disagree with that you could be totally honest about saying stuff about people that a lot of times people are not willing to say oh I can't say this I can't say that that's what I appreciate about what you're doing and what you did here and people who are not familiar with this field will not appreciate how difficult that is how difficult that conversation is to have so I appreciate you doing it yeah thank you I appreciate you having me on I was looking forward to it I'm glad it all worked out and we went we went a good two hours man that was fun it went by fast we did go two hours just almost yeah almost yeah it goes well you'll edit it down to 20 minutes so I'm just joking I'm joking I won't edit it that much no I know I'm joking what I meant by that joke was I only said 20 minutes of stuff that anybody would listen to and I'm joking why I don't joke when I'm on somebody else's show the joke really is if I take out all my stumbling and bumbling really get it down there you're going to get it down there way far but cool man thank you this was great actually thanks again to Rich for joining me today on Skeptico the one question IT up from this interview is what we're experiencing right now regarding UFO disclosure a PSYOP a COINTELPRO an intelligence program what do you think let me know thanks for your time take care bye for now