 Welcome to this episode of Talk of the Town. I'm James Milan. And, you know, on this series we like to do different things, including whenever we can, introduce somebody who's in either a new position or just coming into town, introduce them to the community and the community to them. Well, it's a little odd to be introducing the chief of our fire department because he's been here for a good long while. But he just became chief about two years ago. And this is our first opportunity, given the pandemic, etc., to be here and be able to speak with our fire chief, Kevin Kelly. So first of all, I want to welcome you very much. Thank you and welcome here. And thank you for welcoming us here. It's been several years since we were last here and the place still looks sparkling clean and impressive. Well, it's nice to have a civilian in here finally. It feels like we're starting ahead in the right direction. Absolutely. And we should make note for our audience that you and I are sitting here and we are six feet apart, but we're without masks. And we can do that because both of us are fully vaccinated and thank goodness. We're starting to enjoy the fruits of that. And we want to encourage you, obviously, if you have not yet been vaccinated, please to get a vaccine. Among other things, you get to start to enjoy doing stuff like this again. So anyway, really nice to talk to you. And what I'd like to do today is just talk to you a little bit about your own personal journey getting here to this position and then kind of a little bit behind the scenes here at the fire department and answering some probably pretty basic questions. But we'll see how the conversation unfolds. Certainly. So chief, let me ask you first of all, I remember when I was a kid, I remember lots of kids who whose answer to what do you want to be when you grow up is I want to be a firefighter, right? Lots of us feel that way for a little while when we're kids and go in other directions, obviously. Was that the case for you? Did you know this then? No, I didn't. Certainly when I was a kid, admired police officers and firefighters, but I had an uncle who was a Cambridge U of Tenant and I always respected him. I had no plans on being a firefighter. But what happened was I graduated high school in 1983 and here at Arlington High, I started working and about 10 months into work. I wasn't very happy. I got a call from a recruiter, an Air Force recruiter and the rest is history to say. I joined the Air Force shortly after, went in in 1984, did four years active duty. I spent three years in Illinois and one year in Korea. Oh, and I was a firefighter. They assigned me my job. I went in without a job assignment. They made me a firefighter, which was serendipitous, I have to say. And really interesting. I think people probably when they think about the Air Force, they're, you know, obviously they go to the most obvious positions first. Right. And firefight, explain, you know, what's the role of firefighters there? Yeah, Air Force bases are towns. They have police departments and fire departments and commissaries, you know, grocery stores and gymnasiums and movie theaters and they have to be staffed. A lot of times they're staffed by civilians, but also they're staffed by GIs. So again, they, I was assigned as a firefighter. I went to the Fire Academy in 1984, the Air Force Fire Academy. That was in Illinois. I was then actually, which was kind of a sign to the, that base and I stayed there for three years and it was a great experience. And then I did my last year in Korea, which was, which was spectacular. You know, I, Is that right? Yeah. Well, I, you know, I joined the Air Force to travel. I wanted to see the world and not that it was not just Illinois, not corn fields. You know, not that again, I had a great experience out there and I still have my friends that I talked to and I, and I see. But I wanted to see the world. So when I got my orders to Korea, that was, that was a good time. So I went over there. I was 21, 22 years old, you know, still a kid. I had a great experience over there. And what it and, and was the work basically the same? You were basically, you had transferred from Illinois to a base in Korea, but it operates the same way with all the same components. You had the same kind of job. Yeah. A little, little more pressure over in Korea. I'd say, you know, Illinois, you know, it was still a fire department. But ironically, we always joke about that here. I was at an Air Force base that didn't have planes. It was a, they call it, the, the, the airport had been shut down there. It was just the training base. So for my first three years in the Air Force, I didn't see any planes. So yeah, that was funny. And then I did my year in Korea. So when I got to Korea, there was, you know, it was a totally different ballgame there. There's, there's fighter jets and, and cargo planes and nuclear weapons and all sorts of different things we had to deal with as a fire department. So it was new and exciting. And so the combination of just that being at an Air Force base with planes, it sounds silly, but, and then just being in a foreign country and having that experience, I was there just before I'd missed the Olympics by this, this was 1988. I missed the Olympics by four months, but I did get to go up to the Olympic village and watch it being built and see some things. So it was just a wonderful experience. I wouldn't trade in for anything. And it really, it was one of those moments that set the course for my life. That's why I'm here today in front of you. So yeah, let me just ask you very briefly, like, did you get much of an opportunity to get out into the area? Again, you were in a foreign country. Did you get to see it? You get off the base much? Did you travel much in Southeast Asia? Well, no, I, I, I, all my traveling was in country. But I certainly did take advantage of being in Korea. We went up to Seoul, went up to the DMZ, visited some Buddhist temples and things like that. So it was, it was a quick year. You know, you're only there 12 months. Probably should have did more, but I was, you know, 21, 22, just, you know, a young kid. And is that, is that how it goes? I mean, you said, did my year in Korea, is that generally like for somebody's going to have four year career in the, in the military, you'll have three years and then maybe a posting somewhere? Yeah, Korea is what they call a remote tour. And every, if you do four years active duty, just one tour and get out, you could avoid that. You might not get a remote, but anyone who does a career in the military is going to do at least one or two, what they call remote tour. Can't bring your family, you go for one year, you do your time, and then you come back. But, you know, some of the remotes are truly remote. This one wasn't like, you know, I was in Korea. Now I saw men and women there that were married, who had families, and it was a different experience, you know, they missed home. For me, I was a single young airman, and, and it's what I wanted. You know, I wanted to see the world. So I was happy to be there. And it was a great experience. And you said that that kind of set the course for the rest of your life. Is that because by the time you, you, you were done with your tour, you knew you wanted to do firefighting as a mission? Yeah, so I really enjoyed it. And I came home and immediately took to civil service or civil service department. And I certainly answer questions about that if you want to. But I came back and I took the exam. I wasn't sure if I was going to and I was in my father's past away, but one piece of advice he gave me and it really was very important in my life was I wasn't sure if I was gonna be a firefighter. I really enjoyed it, but I thought I was gonna move on. And he's like, just take the test. He goes, you know, and put yourself in the position to say no. You know, don't burn that bridge. And it was I thank him for that piece of advice. It was a really good piece of advice. And I when people, young guys talked gals talk to me now about being a firefighter. And I don't know. I just take the test and put yourself in the position. Right. You hear yourself echo my father's word. Yeah. And I'm glad I followed his advice. Yeah. So anyway, so I took the test. And now it's a waiting game. We're actually in the process. Now we're gonna be doing some hiring, but it's a long process. And and it takes a little bit of luck. So you don't know if you're gonna get hired. There's other people going for it. So what I did was I went back to work. I got a 40 hour week job and started going to college. I went to middle sex free year just to see if I could handle it. And that was no problem. So then I transferred to UMass Lowell and graduated in four years. It took me four years and I got my bachelor's degree in computers, IT. Still hadn't heard from the fire department. So I just kept pressing after that long after that long. And I just kept pressing forward. I actually thought it was kind of a loss. Yeah. And I was working for a computer company that Bill Ricker was started my career and I got a card in the mail saying we're hiring. Are you interested? So I signed the card and and when when was that? How long have you been in a firefighter? Well, I got hired in 1994. My 27th anniversary is coming up in a couple of weeks. I've been here 27 years, but yeah, the process probably took and ironically, and I also tell people is I didn't get hired the first time I went through the hiring process and didn't get selected. Made it all the way to the town manager had an interview, but I didn't get picked. But I came back, you know, the next year they hired again and I was fortunate enough to get picked at that time. So that's great. Yeah, it was great. And when you say you've been here for 27 years, do you mean here in Arlington? Oh, it's a firefighter for 20. Yeah, I made 20. Right away. You were you were assigned here or how does that work? Okay, that's a good question. So you applied literally for the job here. Yes. And you don't you can only get hired here. She only there's residency requirements, those kind of things. And yeah, so I got hired in May 29 1994 for the Arlington Fire Department. And there's no I mean, I shouldn't say no, you can transfer to laterals to other departments. That's very rare. You normally just spend your whole career in the town you got hired. Okay, so and you said that there are residency requirements. Can we assume then that that most of the folks who work in the station live here in town? Well, okay, it's not no not live in Arlington, but so you to get the residency privilege, you know, you have to have it to get on. You had to have lived in Arlington one year up to the day you took the test. So for example, when I got hired, I actually was living in Belmont. But when I took the test, I was an Arlington resident. So I got the residency preference. And then there's also a military is allowed when they come back. So you can be from Chelmsford, you come back and say, I want to be an active firefighter. They allow someone returning from the military one shot to pick a town as their preference. And then they have to establish residency, but then they can get hired here. And we have a couple of those. We have a couple of people have taken advantage of that. So so yeah, I now feel even worse saying that I was introducing you to Arlington, it a sense because of course, this has been your workplace for 27 years or close to. Yeah. And how just very quickly, like, what was that trajectory like? Getting hired? No, from the time that you were hired, you came in as you know, the rookie. Yeah, so it's hard to remember back then. Yeah, it seems like yesterday, it's really not that hard. It's, you know, you know, it's how time flies. But so I was hired in 1994. And like, I just kind of the processes, I had to go to the fire Academy. So I completed the fire Academy out in Stowe. That's about 11 weeks. It's tough, but doable, right? And most of us make it through. You know, do you we supposed to do? And then I had to become an EMT. All all firefighters and I can have to be I'm still an EMT. Now I required to if they don't have it already, have to get it and maintain it. You'll be determined that you have to have it. So I completed EMT school. And then just started, you know, you're right, the rookie just back step. I did get promoted quickly in less than three years. I made a lieutenant. I was a lieutenant. I'm, I don't know, for six or seven years. And then I took the captain's exam and made captain and was put in the office. So we have two kind of sides of the departments. There's the line, the people that go on the trucks and answer the calls. And then there's the staff positions, which is the training officer, the fire, who does training. There's a fire prevention officer who's a deputy chief who does all the inspections and permitting. And we have an EMS coordinator who's a captain and he does all the EMS training, those kind of things. So I became the training officer when I made captain and did that for a while. And then through promotions, came back to the line, rode the ladder truck for a few years and then made deputy chief. At that point, that was only about three or four years ago. And then I went back into staff and was the fire prevention officer, did that for a couple years. And then chief Jefferson retired and I went for the big job and was fortunate enough. Yeah, very fortunate to get. We have an embarrassment of riches of very qualified people here that could have been the chiefs. I was very fortunate to get it. And if it wasn't me, I would have been happy to work for any of the other people who got it. You know what I mean? Well, very good people. You know, we're getting some insight into your leadership style just in terms of the generosity of spirit that you're demonstrating. So that's great. Several questions that I have coming from what you were just saying. First of all, that sounds like to me, it quite a varied resume for you within this fire within this department. Is that typical for a chief to have done so many different of the other roles? Yeah, it is. But you know, yeah, I, you know, except for the EMS position, I think I feel just about every position in the department, which is great, right? It helps me understand what other folks are going through when they're doing the jobs and which has been helpful for me. But we've had some like Chief Jefferson before me, who chief for 12 years, probably the best chief this department's had. No disrespect to the other chiefs, but just longevity and SARS through the building of the three stations, all those kinds of things. So just did a great job. He had never been the fire prevention officer. He just, his trajectory, just he got lucky. A lot of people don't like to go into the staff positions. They like riding the trucks. And he, when he got made deputy, there was a deputy chief in that position who wanted to stay. So he didn't have to do that. Didn't stop him from being a good chief. But he just did that. So there's certainly more than one career path. But I was fortunate to have done a lot of the roles. I think it's just been helpful for me. So yeah, yeah, in the ways that you say, in terms of just understanding what somebody else is dealing with from your own personal experience, which is great. Another thing that struck me, though, and what you said, you, you were describing your first, you know, you said, oh, yeah, I was, I was rookie. And so backstep. And then later on in your narrative, you said, Oh, I wanted to get, you know, I rose, I got promoted again, and I went back to the line and back on the truck. So two questions. One is, can you tell us what that means? Okay. Backstep thing. Okay. Number one. And number two, I get this sense then that the makeup of a fire engine and the people who are in, in and on it as it's heading out is from all different ranks and different levels of experience, et cetera. So just tell us, like, what is that backstep position number one? And then what are the other positions on the fire truck and who, who, who are those? Okay, certainly. So, you know, you can really talk about a fire engine on a lot of truck, you know, the same as far as positions go. So the back steps, usually the, the person who sits in the back. Yeah. Right. Not like not always the junior firefighter, because we have certainly plenty of great firefighters who do a 30 year career who stay as firefighters. They don't want to promote. It's fine. You know, we need them. They're talented and it's, and it's great. We, I joked, you know, we don't have the rank of sergeant, but we have sergeants, which are very important. No senior guys, those and gals that have that leadership quality that's not given by stripes, just by experience and people listen to. And, and if you are a good officer, you make sure that you have a good right-hand person to help you with that. But so that's the back step. You know, they're a firefighter. They're going to be on the nozzle. They're going to be pulling the hose. They're going to be doing the hot work. Right. And they're going to be very publicly visible. Absolutely. You know, that's who so, you know, a little kid is thinking. Absolutely. That's a firefighter. That's your firefighter. Exactly right. And then the other two, usually on the rig, are the officer. Well, I'll go move up. So the next person is the driver. Normally senior to the back step person, but not always. Sometimes those trade. Some people are more comfortable driving than others, right? We all can drive. It's just, you know, they just. Right. I assume driving is part of the training, but absolutely. Everybody loves, you know. Well, the driving is the easy. It's the, you got to operate the pump. So you're outside. You know, some people, you know, I think, oh, geez, you're on the line. You're on, you have that fire hose. You're in the fire. That's nerve-racking, certainly is. But how about the responsibility being an outside, getting that water and making sure everything's working right? Because if you don't do your job, someone can get hurt. A lot of pressure. Absolutely. So that's, that's a firefighter. Not an officer. They'll be the driver operated. And then the third seat's taken by the officer. It can be a lieutenant or a captain. And they're in charge of that group of people, right? Right. Right. They make all the calls. Yep. Day to day. Just most of that leadership takes place here in the building. Right? It's just the day to day training and housework and then we, and I'll get into a day to day with you if you want. But, um, and then there's the scenes. They're the officers in charge of um, certainly line officers, the ones around the truck. They're pulling hose. They're fighting fire. They're doing those things. But they also have other responsibilities. They go on medical calls with the, with the rescue crews and, uh, they're responsible for things like scene safety. So they'll usually take a step back and let the, the firefighters that are on the ambulance, the back step, do patient care. The officer will be just kind of overall seen. Do we ever get, you know, force it? What's next? Do we need to get furniture out of the way to move this patient? Do we need to call an emetic? They're kind of thinking big picture while everyone else is doing the hand, hands-on work. Right. So those are the roles. Like good leaders do. Yeah, right. Yeah. It's hard to do. One thing that's hard to learn about when you start to move up is to delegate. Because it really is a hands-on type of job. And you get a lot of satisfaction out of that, but there are points where, especially the hardest transition, I think, is when you become a deputy chief and you're running a group. So, um, I'll just keep going is we have four groups in Allington, group one, group two, group three, group four. They work a 24 hour shift and then they're off for three days. So there's your four, right? So they each come in. Each group has a deputy chief who is the shift commander. He's in charge of that group. Work assignments that day, at a fire. Anything that needs to be done that day. If I need something done, I go to the deputy chief and let them know what needs to be done. So that transition is difficult. You know, just now you're not, you're really standing outside. Right. You know, you know. And I assume nobody, you know, nobody signs up or takes the civil service exam with that in mind. The delegating part of that's right. No, they're, they're, they want to be in the action. That's right. But it, you know, it's the natural progression in. It's a young person's job. Yeah, I'm speaking just for myself. You know, it was, you know, um, you know, I had a lot of decision making. If I wanted to go for the chief position, no one, it's an administrative position. Really, that's what it is. But, you know, we have capable, it's time to move on, right? It's a natural, you know, it's interesting. You, you say that it's an administrative position. And that's exactly what I would think in terms of the chief. But you, the, when we spoke to you last week or a couple of weeks ago, it was because of the recent fire at Taimun. And you, you told me, yeah, I had it over there. I was the, you know, in the second, you know, a bunch of arrivals, etc. And then it looked like, it sounded like there was a role for you or you. Yeah, I took command. But is that, is that, uh, is that your choice or is that just what anybody would do in your position or? We talk about, like I talked with the deputy chief is, is I assume command when we get there. Don't have to. But even if I don't, I'm still the chief and I'm there. So I'm in, you know, and I'm still ultimately responsible for what happens. So, but it's a team effort. You know, we use the incident command system and all fighter pilots use the incident command system. It's kind of a, it's a structure that helps you command and keep track of resources, human resources, right? And other things. But, so I assume command when I get there, but immediately let the deputy chief know you're in charge of the fighter seat. You're still operating those crews and assigning them. I'm just going to be another set of eyes and ears here that's stepping back big picture long term. Do we need to get the Red Cross in here? What about it filling it? You know, things that all the big decisions. Well, I mean, he's making the deputy's making the like life decisions, right? Like life decisions, but it's just, he's focused on that and that, you know, you can get some tunnel vision. He's really, it's kind of just thinking of long term. Do we need to get other crews in here for relief? Those kind of things. So it really is a team effort, right? And you're right. I shouldn't have said big decisions. They're more big, bigger pictures, the ones that you can see from having a little bit of distance, whereas he's, he or she's right in it. Let me just ask you as an aside. I found myself when I was going to ask you a question earlier. I almost said fireman, you know, or firemen, right? And I think, you know, as I grew up, all the, all the books and et cetera, it was all, look at the firemen, look at the firemen. And so how many women are, are, you know, on the Alex and Firefight? Yeah. We have one, we have one female firefighter. Now, it's not from a lack of trying. We've had several and, and they've come and gone for different reasons, you know, but, but yeah, we have one firefighter right now. Yeah, I've actually caught myself a couple of times in this who might be a generational thing, right? It's just, it's just that normally they're saying firefighter now you might, I might correct myself again later, just to remind myself to say firefighter not fireman or the guys, you know, try to say guys and go, it's just, it's just, I think it's generational. It's not meant to be disrespectful. Right. No, I certainly have no, and I know you weren't coming across that way. You know, females certainly have a place in this, this perfect, absolutely. Can we talk about that a little bit more, which is, I mean, one, as you said, and, and she's not the only one who's ever been here, but right now, currently, there's one, and that's one out of how many? We have 71. Right. So that's, right, right. Tiny, tiny, tiny. And personally, in my, you know, 60 plus years of living on the planet, I haven't seen, I don't remember seeing a woman firefighter. Like, I just don't remember. What is it? About this profession that is particular, that might be particularly, you know, challenging for, for a woman, because I'm sure you, I know Arlington well enough to know that, from the top down, in a place like this, there's going to be an openness, a receptivity, a willingness and an interest in making that work. Right. Right. And supporting your female firefighters in whatever way they need to in the same way as you do others. Like any firefighter. Correct. Exactly. So, but, you know, do you have any, like you've been at this for 27 years here in Arlington, any, any theories, any speculation, why is it that there are so few women in the, in the force? I wish I had a good answer for you. I don't know if it's just cultural that, that's, maybe the images we've been seeing on TV for the i-generation and, and still maybe. But, but, but if you watch, like I, I watch a show, you know, look at the shows on TV, I'm realistic, right? We all know that, but, but you see a lot more diversity in those, right? If you think about Johnny Gage and Roy DeSoto, when we were kids, Squad 15, right? That was all men, probably all white, right? And now you watch the, which I don't particularly watch, to be honest with you, not just, I don't, but, but I see them, they're a very diverse mix and that'll probably, I assume, be one of the first steps of what they see on TV, right? Right, right. But we're certainly, you know, we're certainly an inclusive community. We'd, I don't think there are any hurdles in anyone's way. I think it's probably just education, you know, job fairs at the high school to, you know, standing there to let the young women there know, hey, this is a career field that's open to you too. But I don't, I don't know. And is there any, anything at all that you can imagine in the work itself, either just, you know, in any aspect of the work itself that just can be harder for, for a woman to have to deal with? No, I think, there you go. No, I don't think there is. I think it's, you know, there's, there's good male firefighters and bad male firefighters. And there'll be good female firefighters and bad female firefighters. It really doesn't matter about the gender, it just matters about the person and the effort they're willing to put into the job and how respectful and how seriously they take it. And anyone can succeed in this career, man or woman. I don't think there's any hurdles, you know. Well, you heard it here first. You're right. If there are happened to be any young women out there in the audience tuning into this interview, just pay heed to what the chief is saying here. Well, and I'd like to add, and like I said to you when we first, well, and like I say to anyone in this department, it's, it's an open door policy here and that extends to anybody, male or female, but that wants to know what it takes and what's the path I'd, you know, just call me and I'd be happy to let you know, you know, so. That's great. You know, you mentioned a little earlier in the conversation, the difference between medical calls and fire. How, and I was noting with you when we talked about Tai Moon, that it seemed to me that that, you know, a two alarm fire as such as that was where you had some support from neighboring towns, et cetera, seemed to me like an unusual occurrence here in town. What is the proportion generally of calls that you're responding to that are of the sort that you would call medical calls versus fire? Yeah. So we average, you know, around 5,200 calls a year, some years a little slower, some, I think a high is probably all 5,400. A low is about 4,800. So right in there somewhere, 50 to 60% of medical, the rest are non-medical. So the non-medical calls or anywhere, we go, we like a term is from smells to bells. We're really, you know, we're a fire department, but we're really all hazards to, you know, from cats and trees to, you know, people go into the fall through the ice in the water to or something smells. I smell an odor of gas, a false alarms, those kind of things. So multitude of, multitude of calls. I've been on so many different kinds, which is what makes the job great. To be honest with you, you come in every day and you never know what's going to happen. So that's what's fun about it. But so that's kind of the non-medicals. And then again, the medicals make up about 50 to 60% of our calls. So at least half or more than half. Yeah, definitely more than half. That's what I say. It's 50 to 60. So, you know, I had said to you that, that I was probably going to ask you some pretty basic questions and I already have. That's okay. But one, another one that, that I've always been interested in and I can't imagine that our audience isn't, is the inherent dynamic in being a firefighter that is fundamentally different from almost any other profession that we can imagine is this idea that you have, it's quiet. It's quiet and there are long hours and there's not much to do and there's no calls coming in and then boom. Right. You got to be ready and on it and truly ready to face something that you may never have seen before, etc. Just talk as somebody who has been living with that as both the person who is lawling about perhaps and then needs to get going and now as the leader, just tell us a little bit about that dynamic. I mean, is it a certain kind of person who responds well to that? Is that something that you train people for? Yeah, we have all sorts of personalities here. Yeah, it's just, yes, we have quiet people. We have people that won't stop talking and I'm one of them. I'm guilty of that. But we have people that are hunters and fishermen and we've got people that are computer nerds. You know, just that there is no, I can't. Right, there's no fire fighter for a fire. You know, there really isn't. And then I think what helps with what's great about, I think any fire department is that blend of new person and then the experienced person. That's what, you know, I remember the first, I'll use myself as an example. You say, how do you get through it? Experience really helps. It's after a while, it's really, you know, when you walk into someone's house and they're in trouble, that snaps you out of any kind of boredom you were in earlier. You're ready to go. That's not a problem. But my first code, do you know what a code, that's when someone's not breathing. They're basically, they're dead. And when you're going to do CPR on them, I froze. Now, probably for three seconds, to me it felt like an attorney, but I remember just standing there. I was fresh out of the academy and EMT school, but I was with an eight-year veteran. Him and I were on the ambulance together and he just jolted me. Just, I don't know if he's, just, he just said, hey, get the oxygen. And once he said that, I just, you know, did it and everything went fine. And it was just, I think, and you said, how do you handle it? It's just when you first come on, everything is nerve-wracking. You don't know which direction to go. There's the, just helping the people and then it's that dynamic with the other firefighters. You want to fit in. You want to be, you know, have them respect you. So how do you handle all that? What you do is you identify the people that you see other people respect and you model them, of course, right? And then just over time, you just, things slow down. Just like a, Tom Brady. Right, just like a professional athlete. Just like a professional athlete. Has some sort of, huh? Things slow down. You stay calm when other people aren't. And I'm not trying to be dramatic. It's just, you really do, you learn that, that you have time, you can make decisions, everything doesn't have to happen. Take those few extra seconds to think and you just learn that, you know. And again, I think that's what's great about having the mentor system here where you constantly have new people coming, people retiring. It's just a constant change and that experience, those experienced people, just the two to you and mentor you. So really, that really helps. I've got a, this is a really kind of very silly and trivial question. Sorry. It's okay. But I and the people that I know have often noted that when there is a call, there seems to be a number of fire engines responding to what looks like, you know, not much going on. What is the protocol for that kind of thing? How is it that that is such a common seeming occurring? So we get that all the time. People say, why do you send so many apparatus or so many? And really what we need there is manpower. Okay. So for example, we have a medical call back when I first came on which sent just the ambulance and that would put that crew in a tough spot because sometimes they'd be kind of hammering it hard. Should I call for help? And I don't want to bother the folks back at the station. It's one in the morning, right? And you don't want that. They're not good if these are young people. Right. So I'm a junior person on the job and I got some 25-year vet yelling at me, what are you doing? And back in my day, I used to carry myself. So, a long time ago, and I think it was the right decision we decided, for example, on a medical we're always going to send an engine or the ladder with the ambulance crew just to have the bodies there to help. We don't need a lot of the material off it, but you know, that's how we get them to bring the truck with us. And I'll use a code, like a code, for example, someone's stop breathing and their house not beating. The two folks in the ambulance, they're working that person. They can't lift them. They can't carry them. They can't get other equipment. They can't move clear with the way if the person happens to be heavy carrying by themselves. So, we just want those people there to help. And that's why. And again, what determines that the nature of the call. So, we have SOGs for different kinds of calls and I'll use the gas example. If there's an odor of gas out on the street, we'll send one engine to investigate. It's out in the street. It's safe. It's dissipating into the air. Fine. If it's an odor of gas in someone's home, we send the latter truck, the engine in, the shift commander is that's much more serious. So, the simple answer is the type of call, the nature of the call will be determined. But not by the shift commander. They're SOGs, the standard operating guidelines. Dispatch, it dispatches us out. Now, certainly there's been times when C2 will be listening. That's the shift commander will be listening to the call on the radio and say, won't you stop the latter also? They hear something that triggers something in them. They certainly, in any moment, they have that authority and we want them to have it to make some decisions that are, you know, we're not, though, like I said, it's good to have standard operating procedures because that helps to do things the same way all the time. But we also have to be flexible. Right. So, and give that kind of discretion and confidence to your, to the command, to the shift commander. Absolutely. You know, so it sounds, I'm not trying to be glib but it sounds like, to some degree, people should understand that when they see multiple fire engines heading somewhere, it's really, they're very large, very visible, very loud taxis. Well, sometimes, and I had someone ask me on the call one day, said, did you have to bring the fire engine? And I said, well, how else will we have gotten here? You know, just to say that, that's how we travel. And when we clear that call and we'll come back to quarters, we can get another call. Right. That could be, so we need to be always ready to go. So I was surprised by something that you said earlier when you were describing the crew on the truck, on the trucks and you described three positions. So is it basically a three-person crew on each truck? Yeah. And why, for whatever reason, I've always thought, maybe it's TV and children's books or something that made me think that there were more. They usually, yeah, well, that's a funding issue. However, so, you know what, there might be a good place. Let me, I'll describe our department, like how many stations, how many people, and that kind of ties into that. So we have three fire stations in town. We have, we're in fire headquarters, which is down in the center. It's the octagon shape one with the big tower. We have Highland Station, which is up on Mass Ave, right between Stop and Shop and Jimmy's. Right. And then we have the Park Circle Station, which is up by the water tower. So every day, we have a minimum manning of 15 that includes a shift commander. That doesn't include the staff. That's people that are on the line. Line is the people that respond to the fires. So we have 15. So we have three engines. Those are the engines carry the water. They carry the fire hose. And they all have three people on them. And then we have the ladder truck. That's the big ladder truck that carries three people. So that gets us to what, 12? 12. We have the ambulance. So our ambulance is an ambulance. We're all EMTs, but they're also firefighters. So they perform both roles. So that gets us the 14 and the shift commander makes 15. Certainly, you know, four would be better, right? More people are better, but there's also, there's budget considerations and staffing considerations. But we're fortunate. We have, we're part of the metro fire group, which is all the, not all, but most of the departments within the 128 belt, including Boston and Cambridge. And we have what's called mutual aid agreements and they're invaluable. That's, you saw it happen the other day at 663 Mass Ave. Once we get to the point where we think we need help, we call and they come, free of charge. And we do the same for them. So that, that really is an underestimate, underestimated value to that. It allows departments not to go bankrupt. You know what I mean? To have to, you know, we have our insurance policy here in case you need us, we can get going, we can get started and most of the time we can put the fire at ourselves. But if it's something that extends or gets to be a little undaunting, we just fire alarm calls and they come in to help and we do the same for them. So. Yeah, you know, it's, that's interesting to hear because in various ACMI programs and interviews I've had over the years, the issues of sharing resources with surrounding towns, whether it's, you know, police and animal control and, or in this case fire, you know, that seems like fiscally a good idea when, if and when you can do it. It doesn't happen nearly as seamlessly as it appears to in your context. It is seamless in the, we've been, since I've been on and I think forever. Like there's been mutual aid. We've always come to help each other. You really need to. You know, you couldn't fund a fight apartment for the worst case scenario all the time. Right. It would be impossible. Right. That's a very bloated, you know, kind of department for sure. Just a couple more questions, Chief. One is you had referred earlier in the interview to this being a civil service. Okay. You know, situation here. And of course, I know that what that means, among other things, as you've told from your own story, you take a civil service exam. Right. Then you wait for some period of time to hear back, you know, whether there's going to be an opening and whether you're invited to apply, etc. Are there any, we have spoken in recent times, and again, with the police department here in town, there have been some issues around the fact that it's a civil service set up in terms of the discretion that the, you know, Chief has to make certain kinds of decisions around personnel and all that stuff. That's how it's come up before. Right. I'm wondering what, you know, how, how either common or uncommon is that for fire departments in towns and cities and, you know, what are the issues that can arise for you from, you know, just from it being a civil service, well, we follow, yeah, we we, we fall under the same rules as the police department does with, fire, civil service goes, you know, my hands are tied. I think what you're referring to, I think, you know, as far as the hiring process goes and the day to day, there's some pros and cons of civil service. There's certainly a, right? But I have heard the manager, when he speaks about it, it seems to more where he fails the civil services can be hentaiing is the disciplinary, the discipline. Yeah, I mean, I think that's how it's come up by the last couple years. But we haven't had that issue in the fire department. So, but I'm just curious. I mean, you mentioned that there were pros and cons. And again, we don't need to spend a lot of time on this, but I'm curious about what for your, you know, for the operation, again, of a department where you haven't had to worry about, like the, the, the, you know, some of the more extreme situations or something. Right. Well, you know, and it depends, it's funny, it depends who you ask, right? Now, I think this is a pro, but some people think it's a con. We talked about residency. What I like about civil service and some, what some people don't like is that residents do get preference. And it creates a certain, as far as I'm concerned, a spree to core. We all come, we have a common bond, like, you know, I'm now working with people like graduated high schools kids. And they, I know them and they know me and we might not even know each other, but we had similar experiences and, and, but we also have examples of, I told you the military folks that we have a few here that decided they wanted to get on Allington when they got out of the service. They weren't from Allington and they've been valuable. They've been great, great employees. I'm not saying that they muddy the water at all. So, so your hands are tied, right? So, but it hasn't, I haven't seen the problem in our department with that. I actually think it's a positive. Okay. So, promotion wise, you know, we take tests. We, you know, we usually pick the person who got the highest score and it's worked out fine. But your hands can be tied with that sometimes. There might be someone who, who came in second, who you might think is a better candidate, but short of that first person being a total problem, the first person gets a job. So, but that can also be good because, you know, one of the things civil service did was to get rid of nepotism, right? It, so if you've got the top score, you can't just be skipped because the chief's kid, my kid is in third place and I want to make them. So, you know what I mean? So you really have to decide what's important. I think civil service has worked for us, but I understand that, you know, you have to look at some of the things. It's a really good, I mean, that's a good response as far as I'm concerned because it reminds me that it's very similar to, but the pros and cons of standardized testing where, you know, at least you have the same way to compare everybody and it, at least is theoretically, right? And you know, there's a lot of talk about diversity now, right? And it's always, but really it's been in the last year. You know, civil service because of residency and let's face it, Allington's a predominantly white community, not all white, we certainly have a minority population why they're not taking the test when you ask me, I don't know, you know, I don't know why. I mean, it's open to anybody. Maybe we need to do a better job of reaching out, you know, going to, you know, to the schools, those kind of things. But, but what civil service, we have to Hispanic employees, they were veterans who picked Allington to come to, and now they're on our department. So it actually brought, civil service brought diversity to the department. So, you know, it's a balancing act. It really is. It's interesting because, you know, you were mentioning that it's come up, the whole question of civil service and its effect on the fire and police, it's really come up more around disciplinary options or not recently. Right. But before that, I remember talking to Chief Ryan about this for years from the police department, that the hiring, you know, having your hands tied for hiring, makes it a little bit difficult to, you know, achieve the goals that you might otherwise have. But it really isn't as difficult to bypass hire. Like civil service will give you the benefit of the doubt more than when you're trying to terminate. Right. That's when you turn to terminate, usually the employee gets the benefit of the doubt and there's many stories of that. Oh, interesting. Right. Because at that point, they've got some tenure there. Right. So they want to make sure they're protected. So look at this hurdles. I don't care what system we use, even if we got to civil service, there would be hurdles. Right. Right. So you just got to navigate through them and hopefully you just get the best candidate you can get and then see what happens. All right. Well, you know, I appreciate how much time you spent with us. I have one more question for you. Go ahead. And that is given the fact that you've been here for 27 years, you've been now chief for two plus, or two years. You spoke very laudably about your predecessor, you know, calling him just the best chief so far, etc. What is your vision for the department? What do you see basically as where, you know, what your primary responsibility is it more to kind of carry on? Certainly. Keep things at the same. I'm not ashamed to admit, like I just, you know, when I took over the ship, it was pointed in a great direction and I just want to keep it steered that way, you know. This town, I'd like to say, first of all, I'm very fortunate to work, you know, because I hear other chiefs and, you know, where you hear it goes in other communities. I really have a two-headed monster. I have the employees that I have to work with and every day. And then I have the town hall, you know, the town hall. And I couldn't have two better groups of people, you know. We would look at, is every day perfect? No. But I have the support of the union and they have mine. And I have the support of Town Hall and Adam Chapterland and Sandy and Karen Malloy. And they know that they have mine too. You know what I mean? And so that's been great. My goal is just to make sure one that the men and women of this department have everything they need to, one, do their jobs effectively and safely and continue that and two, to make sure that we're giving the best support and protection and, you know, whatever the citizens of the town need. And it's not just fires. We go into the schools and talk to the kids. We're out doing inspections. We serve a lot of roles. COVID, you know, we didn't even really talk about COVID, but that's been a unique experience, right? So I'm very proud of our membership and how they, you know, stood up when that happened because it was a lot of unknowns. We're certainly in a better place now. But when it first happened, you know, we didn't know how it was going to affect us and personally, and if we're bringing it home and those kind of things. And everyone just did their jobs to the best they could and then beyond. And I couldn't be more proud of this department, really. You know, I appreciate the fact that you just brought up COVID because it's, you know, some people might think it's really a glaring gap in our conversation. And I'm sure that there were so many ways in which your own job as well as all of our lives were kind of up, was upended. And perhaps we can return for a future conversation and talk about that more intensively. But I felt like I feel like it's a little bit of a relief to have such a nice and extended conversation covering a lot of, for me at least, very interesting, interesting just information that you shared with us without acknowledging the specter of COVID who has been so, you know, impossible to escape. So guess what? We just had a COVID-free 45-minute conversation. And again, we may return for, we will certainly return for other visits for other reasons. And what I would recommend and if it's not already played is the real heroes, the real, it was the Health and Human Services Department, Christine Buongiorno and Natasha Wadden. They, we had our role and we certainly, we had a direct role going into people's homes and dealing with sick people and those kind of things. But the day-to-day, just the broad spectrum from just, what do you call it, tracing people. I'm enjoying them. Right, contact tracing. Contact tracing. And then did you get a chance to go to the clinic? Yeah. Yeah, just an amazing job and the town and it should be very grateful that I have people like that working over there. And I feel very fortunate. 100% agreed. 100% absolutely. We are really, really lucky. And boy, have we leaned on them and boy, did they deserve a nice long vacation. They certainly did. Are you listening at them? So again, Chief, just thanks for welcoming us so warmly here for arranging for no emergency calls during our conversation as well. And really for sharing both the aspects of your own life and trajectory here, but also of the way that firefighting gets done, giving us a glimpse behind these lovely big doors here and just giving us a sense of what the men and women who work with you and for you are doing. Well, thank you. And I think the last thing I'd like to say to the people of Allington is just feel safe that you have a real good group of professional firefighters here that are willing to do anything they need to help you. All right. Well, we look forward to more conversations with you in the future. We welcome you to the position of Chief. We appreciate you being here and being with us. And we really do look forward to next time. Thank you. My pleasure. Thank you. This has been Talk of the Town. I've been talking to our fire chief, Kevin Kelly. And I'm James Milan. We appreciate his time and we appreciate yours as well. Thanks for joining us and we'll see you next time.