 It's one o'clock. It's a given Tuesday. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Think Tech and more specifically it's Community Matters. And even more specifically, Peter Hoffenberg is on the show to discuss an interesting topic which has been in the press globally in the last few days, weeks. It's the Orthodox Jewish Orthodox protests against COVID social distancing protocols. Hi, Peter. Hello. How are you? Good to see you. I'm enjoying my hermitage. Nice. I can see you. Your wife went shopping for you. That's nice shirt. Lovely. I'm in good shape. You are. So let's talk about, you know, not all the Jews feel the same way that the Orthodox feel. And the Cassidy Jews everywhere in the world live in a world of proximity, if you will. They pray. They spend time with family. It's a very tactical, tactical, what am I looking for? Tactile. Tactile kind of experience. They need to be near their families. It is a religious thing. Can you describe to me to the extent you know what it's like to be an Orthodox Jewish in an Orthodox Jewish family? Yeah. I'm not sure. As much as I can, I think you're absolutely right about the proximity. And some of that proximity for our viewers might be unusual for them to think about, but you have to live within walking distance of the synagogue. So on a holiday and particularly on Shabbat, you are not allowed to perform any work, which means unlike most Jews in America, they can't get in their car and drive to synagogue. They live in a concentrated area. But for reasons that really make sense for their worldview and their understanding of the Torah. The New York situation is also more compact because there's actually a housing crisis in that community. So many of the buildings, and I think people in Hawaii would appreciate that. I mean, many of the residents since they're multi-generational, like they are here. And so you have probably not only more people living within proximity, but people who are related. So they tend to be, as you say, more, more tactile. So at least in the New York case, some of the issues have been because of the density in which they live, which have both economic and religious reasons. The reference to tactile is important as long as we also sort of stretch it out a little bit. With that, unlike many religious people who go to services out of obligation or duty, and they look at it as a couple of moments to either sleep or catch up on their texting, Orthodox Jews really relish the religious experience. It's supposed to be joyful. It's total. It is absolutely. So the idea of a wedding, the idea of a wedding like the one that was canceled last week, including 10,000 people, is not unusual. Because when you have a wedding or what's called a joyous occasion, it's open to everybody. So I think that perhaps listeners who are not as conversant or aware of this community might think of it as a fundamentalist community, but I don't mean that in a pejorative way. I mean, people who take religion seriously, not separated from the rest of their lives, want to live with co-religionists, want to celebrate that. Okay, so I don't mean fundamentalist in the way that's thrown around as a criticism. Okay, so with that as background, I want to add just a few little things. Not all Orthodox Jews are the same. So in New York, there are particular Orthodox communities which are having this problem. And there are other Orthodox Jewish communities which are putting masks on. All right, so there are various different Orthodox communities that generally follow a spiritual leader. And that spiritual leader who is down one street might very well never talk to the spiritual leader down the other street. Okay, so even though the press says Orthodox Jews and says Orthodox Jews in New York, it's not all Orthodox Jews. It is not all Orthodox Jews in New York. And it's certainly not all Jews. Oh, absolutely not. But also not all Orthodox Jews. And again, probably some of your listeners and yourself and I have some experience with New York. So this also can't be extricated from New York. So years ago, there was the Crown Heights incident in which a Jewish driver inadvertently ran over an African American. There was a stabbing of an Australian Orthodox Jew by an African American. The New York New York has its own memory. And so when you talk about this issue. Those folks in the community don't divorce this issue from their history, which is not in any ways any way to say that there's something inherently trans-racially actually most people in New York get along very well. But this happens. This happens to be an area where there's a history. And I would say that the current administration with Mayor Blasio Blasio has a little bit of a history also of trying to control the Orthodox gatherings, but to be honest, also control most other gatherings, other than the Black Lives public protests and other ones, but many of those have of course people wearing masks. So they're not again, you know, critics of him are not playing on exactly the same level, because if you look at those protests. Most people have masks, and even there's some social distancing, but you know, if you're Orthodox Jew, it would not be unusual for you to look at your window and say, well, look, these people are marching. Why can't I have my wedding. And there are good reasons not to have the wedding, but I mean that's going through the mentality. So to help introduce the issue issue a little bit. There's also the bigger issue. I mean, the massive issue, which is a collision of public health and public safety with the interpretation of religious freedoms. Right, that's sort of the heart and soul. And in that case, certainly Orthodox Jews are not alone. There are other congregations, including Christian congregations, which have been have been holding their meetings as a defense of religious freedom, and that that's not uncommon at all. I mean, if this is New York, so it gets a lot of attention, but their churches throughout the country, and some of the super spreaders in fact early on were church services, in which people are not wearing masks, and not social distancing. That's sort of the larger issue, which is religious freedom as a public interest versus health. Well, in that regard, I think we ought to talk a little bit about the measles, because there were a number of again Orthodox congregations, New York, who didn't want to do measles vaccinations and they paid a price for that. Yes, yes. Can you talk about it. I want to talk about it, but but not again in my usual way remember I'm not representing you age, and I'm not an expert by any means on the Orthodox community. But I think they're similar but not exactly the same so vaccination issue like anti vaccine people across the country. That's a little bit of divinity God will God will protect us and and some suspicion that as as well. So in that case, you're also though, let's let's be honest dealing with some people who feel more comfortable being separated from what we would think of as the real world. And again I don't want to use real in a better or worse term or the Jordan term. So, measles is of course an invasion from the real world, but so is the vaccine. So is trusting a vaccine. I don't think the Orthodox argument is is the standard argument that vaccines will cause autism. I have no I haven't. Right, so that that's a common argument you hear from anti vaccine people based on absolutely no evidence at all. There's is not that I think there's is religious freedom but also religious freedom in which like the shakers and they live in their own community. So medicine isn't just not God like medicine is quite often something from the outside. No, having said that though again let's recognize that there are Orthodox doctors. There are Orthodox frontliners who have gotten caught. It's it's even possible the nurse holding the kids who did get vaccinated was Orthodox so I think we've got to be really careful here. And I don't blame the media because there are millions of stories. But again we got to be careful about the labels and understanding these folks so some certainly thought of the vaccinations, like they think of the masks for example it's not necessary or not being in God's way and God's plan, but there are also those who did get vaccinated right. The great difficulty is you know, is it just takes a couple people not being vaccinated or a couple people not very If this were something you know if this were some other issue which we're not a public health issue, we might not be having this discussion. I mean I'm sure there are other examples in the Orthodox community, where people have refused some kind of medical care, but it has been a personal right it's a personal choice. So you mentioned you know it's a balance of religious religious principles, religious freedom and science. And when I say science I mean the science of epidemiology, because it's clear, you know, you don't have to be a scientist to know that if you if you are infected with something that is infectious, and you don't take steps to protect the next person, you wind up with a whole community that's infected. And you know I mean that's a rational person would come to that conclusion very, very quickly and there are many people in this country, especially in the, you know, especially in this country, who don't buy into that. They think it's a matter of their personal liberty, and they don't see that it's an epidemiological phenomenon. So what what are the Orthodox say about that surely they have an answer. They have an answer but I don't want to misquote it so let me say that the the answer is often again in their minds religious freedom, but also in their minds a celebration really of God and divinity, and God will protect them and God will not protect them. The costs of not living the religious life are too great. But again, I encourage your listeners to try to find official expressions of the Orthodox community, which will be many. But one of them certainly is, and perhaps secularists don't appreciate it. Many secularists may not see not celebrating religion as a particularly high cost. So many secularists would argue, really in the balance public health clearly tries, and I'm not really losing a lot I'm not really losing a lot. We're not going to church or the last meeting hall synagogue, but we have to try to understand the other framework and the other world view, in which not celebrating God, not celebrating with co religious is basically too high a cost. I think that robbing them of what they think of as the essence of their, their lives, and in order for us. I mean, even if we disagree with that I think in order for us as society or political community. We got to recognize that and deal with that. Not dismiss it, not demonize it, but try to negotiate essentially and remind people of these other costs. And that's really part of kind of a plebiscite part of a discussion, which I think as we talked about before with with Mark just can't work on social media. I mean, it requires, you know somebody from the city of New York, sitting down with the rabbi and personalizing it. I just, I just think the way the things are going now, people are so with within their own steadfast positions that they're not even they're not willing to practice any kind of a more moral imagination because of the sense that, like if you practice moral imagination, you're giving up the battle, or something wrong with you, which I personally I don't think at all you can hold very steadfast to your principles, hold them forever, and still try to morally imagine what the other person is is going through. Unless you want to resolve this, you know, in a coercive and alienating way. Except for a few people I don't think I mean obviously there are people who are willing to be coercive and willing to be alien, but for the rest of us, I think we prefer a different mode. There's, you know, in Michigan, where they invaded the state house and in the face in the name of personal liberties, even constitutional liberties, the liberty of being liberated from a mask. It's the same, you know, lack of interest in protecting the community. It's, I mean, the larger community. It's, they believe the Constitution offers them this constitutional right. And there are those religious groups in the country, not the Jews at all, not the Orthodox, you know, who are their cultists, and they follow Trump's, you know, leadership on the point. And they do, they believe it in sort of an alternate reality. But it's different. And you have various groups for various reasons with various mechanics, all coming to pretty much the same conclusion. That is, I have an absolute right to do this, leave me alone to do my thing. Now what's interesting in New York is the Bosio, and also Andrew Cuomo, they come around and say 10,000 people at a wedding. They're not made for a super spreader. We're not going to let you do that. Now that we have notice of what you're doing, it's incumbent on us as government to stop you. That's not unreasonable in any way. Now I suppose there were efforts to try to meet, I know there were efforts to try to mediate this, but those efforts failed because, you know, people were locked on their, their beliefs. They did have the wedding and it was small. It was not. Oh, yes, that's right. They reduced it. Right, which is still a problem, but a lot of times beginning public interests require compromise. And certainly 50 is probably 49 to large, I guess 48, 47, I think I probably gave you that advice and a couple, but certainly I think we could all agree that an invitation of 11,000 people would bother any kind of tracing. I agree with you about the basic points of my rights. Trump Trump, so to speak, the little team, the public interest, but I think students of religion with find it interesting that the Orthodox have no desire for martyrdom, right the Orthodox have no desire to go and stake out almost house and practice firing weapons and kidnap. Part of the problem I think with Christian extremists is they have a kind of modern and complex. I mean, when you think about 13 people are probably not actually going to be able to get now. They're a bit more likely the young man who walked into a worship in the South Carolina church and murder the people around him. He was willing to die. That's kind of modern. I think that's a little bit different. Some of these folks on the general political rights and more often than not, they are Christians. I mean, most Christians have nothing to do with it. They think of themselves as Christians really kind of have a Jesus martyr complex whereas the Orthodox, you know, they protested, they did, and they had a little bit of a riot. They have no interest. They have no interest in dying for the cause. Yeah, which, which makes them a public health problem, but not necessarily a public safety problem. In other words, there are no domestic terrorists in that Orthodox. No, no, no. That would be because of the notion of minion. You know, I remember I was in Tahiti one time and, and they had nine individuals who were have a service, and they were looking all over the, all over Tahiti to find a 10th person to make the requirement for the minion. And they found me. And I was happy to do it, but they would not have had the service. They would have been frustrated beyond description if they didn't have that one extra person. There's always one answer. Here is it can invite a woman. Yes, well, that, that'd be easy. That'd be easy. That didn't occur. I know, I know, but then the time would be quite easy. So anyway, the New York experience was in a funny way Peter was a success. It was a negotiated result. I think the government did the right thing by, you know, putting the heat on them. And then they both did the right thing by coming to a solution. 50 may not be a, you know, a perfect solution, but it's a lot, it's a lot better than 10,000. I think you saw some other significant differences. So for example, the White House wasn't egging on the protests, right? The White House gave no support to the protests and the White House did not attack the governor. Okay, that's very important, right? It was, it was a local issue in many cases. And secondly, there was no outside funding for the protests. So really, the Orthodox Jews were, as their mentality is really talking about themselves. They need or want White House support. They didn't need or want whoever the funders are on the other side. So it really was, you know, a New York issue, which was resolved within New York. And I think for everybody, that's beneficial because as we know when issues like that become public and global, they just scratch the scab off of anti-Semitism. I mean, it had the potential, it had the potential to be another poster moment for anti-Semites. Do you think it was in any way? Well, I don't, and I don't even, I don't think de Blasio was either. But I think de Blasio and Cuomo have to publicly explain why the protests are acceptable. And I think they can do that. But if you just look at the optics, it does seem odd that there can be protests and there can't be ways. And I think there are reasons, but it's another case of public figures. And, you know, some people just hold this, there'll always be some deputies. But if you're talking about the majority of people in the middle who want to hear an explanation and say, okay, you know what, that makes sense. I think, I don't think it was anti-Semitic. And you know me, I find anti-Semitism everywhere. So I really don't think it was. I think Cuomo had to look better than de Blasio. I think this is too much for de Blasio. I just, you know, as a politician. And let's be honest, I mean, outside of being the commissioner major of the baseball, the governor, the mayor of New York is the single most difficult political position. It's much easier to be president of the United States. So I just think that, I mean, de Blasio might very well be a good guy. I just think he's in over his head. Not at his own doing, but I just think this is too much. It shows you how this sort of thing stresses government. Absolutely. COVID stresses government in every way imaginable. But let me move to Israel. Because we've had a parallel, you know, series of events in Israel over the same thing, the orthodox and the rules about COVID and distancing in masks and religious events. Can you talk about how it has unfolded in Israel? Right. I guess probably your viewers in the series know that Israel has an intense rate, very high rate. And they may be on their second waiver. I think one of the differences is though, that in Israel, the religious community plays a very important political role. So there really wasn't much of a political cost for de Blasio to ask the orthodox Jews not to have a big, a big wedding. They don't even vote. They're probably some Trump supporters there. But we're not talking about a really, so we're not talking about the equivalent of Christian evangelicals, right? That's a political point. But I think you're the series of viewers have to rethink Israel where in order for, for example, Netanyahu and Likud to hold the government, they can't piss off the religious communities. And so that makes it many ways much more difficult. And I would say that some communities in Israel are handling it well. Others, not by any means at all. It is a convergence of a political crisis for Netanyahu is being charged with corruption. And the constant tensions with Palestinians and Arab Israelis, which your viewers know about. And combining that with the COVID has really overwhelmed I think the Israeli government and it's just kind of the stasis just hold the deck. I would recommend if you have time. I think it would be an excellent heart journalist Allison Kaplan summer who would be happy to talk with you about the resume. And I think it would be an excellent guests for yourself and your viewers. She lives there to give you really good accounting of politics and COVID. I can only give you what I've read, including things by her. But I think for your viewers, that's just a vital political difference, right? Can you tell our audience, what are our answers? Okay, so hard parts is probably the most popular Israeli newspaper, which tends to be if you need a spectrum tends to be to the left. But it's not a communist or social newspaper. It will publish editorials and articles, which will be critical of Israeli governments, including labor governments, and has a significant number of editorial writers who are sympathetic, often for very good reasons to the Palestinians and the Arab Israelis. So it's not the voice box of the government by any means at all. I don't think there's a direct analogy, but maybe if you watch and posted in New York Times, in the sense that it's a very reputable news outlet. A lot of American news in it. Yeah, and it tends to take a seriously Jefferson's charge for the state must be critical of government. So Netanyahu, how well is he done? It doesn't sound like he's, he's done very well dealing with this issue in Israel. The Orthodox don't agree with him and he's a little, he's stuck. He's stuck a little bit. It can't really solve the problem. Right, because he needs them politically. I would be very wary, though, drawing too much of a parallel between, say, the Brazilian president and the American president and Netanyahu about this issue, because Netanyahu's never publicly mocked science, for example. Like, he knows, he knows masses have to be born. So his is clear and maybe Trump believes in science involves Sarah. I don't know, but they don't say they believe in science. And Netanyahu would never go out and say that, not in Israel, where three quarters of the scientific and medical patents, everyone come out. So I think his is really a strictly political problem. And as many of your viewers know, Israel, it's not parallel to the United States politically, it's parallel to Britain and Germany, where you need a coalition government is very rare for one party to have enough of a majority to run the government. So sometimes you have to make concessions, sometimes hold your nose and make concessions so you can actually have a government. And that's been Netanyahu's case now for several elections where he's sometimes only one or two people short, but those one or two people generally are either other religious community or very closely affiliated with them so you might see a picture. And the individual might might or might, well, probably would be wearing a yamaha, but maybe not wearing the black clothes that your viewers are used to seeing an orthodox, but that person would be standing with probably the orthodox community. So take what's happening in Israel, which is kind of a stalemate. I mean, I think it's more than a political problem. It's a public health problem. And part of the reason that it's a public health problem is that people don't follow the protocols on masks and distancing. And there are a lot of orthodox in Israel and that's got to have some kind of salient demographic effect. But anyway, you take what's going on in Israel and what's going on in Brooklyn and other locations where the orthodox or orthodox people, you know, are taking this kind of position. Where's it all going? I mean, we have a COVID crisis here and there, both. And it seems to me that the government ought to come down on it because the bottom line is we cannot afford to do to allow anything, you know, that perpetuates the infection. I'm thinking of China where they, you know, you want to perpetuate the infection, you go to retraining camp. They're not kidding around. And they have been very successful right now. There's just a minimal number of cases going on in all of China. And you got to hand it to them for that. But ultimately, if we keep going up and up and up, whether Biden wins or not, and the government can't do anything about it, doesn't do anything about it, somebody has to do something. And so this, this is a problem that is not resolved in either place. I mean, what happened in Brooklyn is not a resolution, a long-term resolution. It's a resolution of one event. And somewhere along the line, there's got to be a crunch, don't you think? I agree with you that it will be a crunch, but I think the parallels, say, for example, in China, just don't work when you remind yourselves that public health questions are not divorced from everything else. They're not divorced from the clinical culture. They're not divorced from social interaction. So yes, China has done a good job in this regard, but I think most people will be very reluctant to accept the larger costs for that. I could see Homo and Lazio strategy as, you're right, not eradicating it, but very carefully trying to manage by trying to get the community leaders on board to at the very least restrict these large, super spreaders. The one difference might be, and this is not a partisan position, but if we're, if one party were, or one presidential were to win, I think the tone of wearing a mask public on a regular basis would provide a helpful message. It would at least distance those who do not, from accepted normal behavior. And that's not a partisan. Your viewers are not listening to your mind by politics. It's just an analysis that, you know, in places where the duly elected political leaders, and that includes locally, right, and they've taken on masks. Okay, some people will be angry because they never liked them. But again, you know, the people kind of in the middle who are deciding what to do. That's, that's a validation of acceptable behavior. We always talk about negative behavior as validating people. So for example, a president or chancellor or ex does this, which is nasty, and people can be nasty. And that may be true. But the reverse also works. You can think about things that FDR did. I think things that Carter did that our motivations for moral behavior, not just in. I think it's going to take that I am not a scientist, but I listen to most scientists. You know, I mean, I should say, I listen and heard men heard argument is not heard immunity argument is not going to work. So I fear that, but the CDC is predicting it's going to be a really devastating winter. I fear that. Well, you know, one thing that strikes me I would make a speculative prediction that even in a closed community phenomenon like this in Brooklyn or in Israel. You have people who don't follow the rules. I mean, the COVID rules in close proximity and you're doing this. They're doing this because you know religious principles and religious life, so to speak. But, but what you what you get at the end of the day in reality in science is a very intense infection. And that little community, you know, which doesn't want to be decimated is at risk for decimation. And these fellows are going to look around and notice that half their relatives are sick, and their elderly people are in the hospital. It's just a tragedy all around them. I can say, gee, maybe we have to rethink this because it isn't working. And maybe we have to rebalance these two considerations. Do you think that will happen Peter. I don't, I don't know the community well enough. I think that's probably true of other communities as well, or if this is going to work. It's going to have to be local police. I mean, local rules and regulations, but the government is going to have to reach out and make sure it has the allies. What I know about this last meeting is most people follow the rabbi and rabbi says that's, and most likely, I mean, you know, two Jews, three opinions, we know that. Okay, and the whole basis of the conversation, but on our many issues. And it's not on like Christians or Muslims who listen to their religious leaders as well. It's not uncommon. I mean, it's only the breakers in their democracy. No other religious organizations really democratic makers. I think that's what's going to happen. Take I'm hoping that they that story of the wedding is negotiation between rabbi and the state of New York and the city of New York, and that that rabbi will then help set the press. Yeah, I agree with you. Not live for religious reasons, but as you talked about the start, because of housing costs reasons, you're asking, yeah, you're asking for a mini epidemic, a destiny. I agree. One thing is clear is that things that we have assumed things we have held on to in our lives or maybe in our cultures that have lasted for hundreds, thousands of years that we have treated as mainstream. And that's part of the fundamental points of living, not only in the Orthodox community, but in every community. Those, those things are being tested, like government is being tested, our society is being tested. And at the end of this, if there is ever an end at the end of the tunnel as we are in it now, we'll find that a lot of things we made assumptions about are changed. There will be one of them but there's thousands of others and it's, that's why you and I can have these shows, you know, add infant item to evaluate all the changes that are happening around us. There's no end to it Peter. And I agree with you, the only point I'd add is that and you know this as well, that a lot of these criticisms and a lot of cracks have been there for a long time. And I think this has opened them up, right, look, the militia has been around for a long time. Those guys in Michigan, many of their parents were members of the militia, right. So it's a certain degree, it's a matter of the exposure is a whole philosophy about setting up a reason that one of the big differences is that it's a catastrophe create problems, which are not there before, or just just as an open up things to reveal what has been there before. And I think, I think what's happening with us, and it's, you know, doesn't mean it's easier to solve necessarily not. But I think most of the things we're seeing, let's say for example an attack on regulations, they've been people like, since the EPA since before the ink on the EPA documents dry. Already. All right. So, in a way, it's folks who were on margins, who have been fighting for a long time, or in the year a lot. They've been there. Now, it's also true that there are certain new issues and that, and the scientists know that we try to figure out the nature of this virus, you know, exactly how it's transferred doesn't map exactly to the epidemic in 1918. And that does mean there's certain new things, but a lot of things that worry you and me and keep us out of this. Dodgers is our issues which we've been around. They just not have the kind of street cred. And it's an old argument and we've talked about it many times, but it's not incorrect just old. One of the big differences is social. Big difference right and you know, we all everybody agrees and that's not very important by any means at all. But it's allowed people who are just it's allowed to be visible. Not always to actually create a movement necessarily, but give them the impressions of the avenue. That's really dangerous, right the impression that you have a lot of followers or movement. It's almost as dangerous as actually happen. And that's, and again we talked about this but just remind you, and your listeners, they've been other times like that in history like the printing press. A lot of the advantages and disadvantages and regulations years where they were at the printing press. They were there at the telegraph in the 19th century. A lot of very similar issues with of course they're mind or nothing. Nothing can replace pushing button, right. In a few seconds, somebody has been around the world that I'm not saying they're exactly the same, but a lot of things that worry us. Like, it's something true. Well, they worry about that with the printing press, right. Are you connecting international movements. Well, they worry about that with the telegraph, right, but who could have access. We worried about every single kid in Hawaii, having access to wifi so they can get you. Well, the telegraph didn't go everywhere. So they were pockets of people and we're not. So, I'm not, I'm not flattening it out. I'm just saying that history helps us a little bit think through, not equivalencies, but comparisons. There you go. There you go again. History helps us. It doesn't help, but doesn't. Thank you, Peter. I so enjoy our discussions. Absolutely pleasure. Take care of yourself. Be too soon unless the world becomes perfect. Stay safe.