 This small country star behind me with a customary crowd of idlers on the front porch or stoop, as the South Africans call it, might be found in any small rural American community. But the dirt road that runs parallel to this small country star marks the beginning of a location in the town of Nelsprit, the African location where natives are forced to live. Nelsprit, a small mining town in the northern trans-Val, has for the past week been the focus of the racial tension in South Africa. It started with a protest march by some 400 native women on the police station. The women have long been more militant in their resistance to apartheid laws in South Africa than have been their menfolk. And in Nelsprit this week, the African woman has suddenly become the focal point of resistance to the nationalist government. Nelsprit on the surface, this rainy, humid day, looks as quiet as that scene on that rustic front porch of the store. But in reality, Nelsprit is still tense after a week of trouble, big trouble and violence, even in South Africa. I asked for permission this morning to go inside the location at Nelsprit and make this film. We were told that there's been trouble there lately and that rather not have any Europeans go inside. This then is our next recourse. What is behind the firm continued refusal of African women to accept passes? Well, the passes have been enforced in South Africa for a very long time among the men. And it has become very clear that the past system in South Africa is the basis of forced and cheap labor. Now to impose such a system on the African women is to create hardships. Firstly, African women will have to produce these passes on demand. If they fail to do so, they will be arrested in the streets, they will be stopped at stations, they will be stopped as they visit one another in the locations and if they haven't got those passes, they will be immediately arrested and brought before the court. Now African men who value their women just as any other people value their women say what will happen to their children? Ladies, why was the black sash formed in the first place? Well, the black sash was formed in the first place because the nationalist government introduced the Senate bill into Parliament. It was a bill to expand the size of the Senate, to almost double the size of its original size. And you fear that this would do what? Well, we felt that it was a legal trick or we didn't know whether it was legal then, but we felt it was a piece of trickery and against the spirit of the Constitution. What has been the official government reaction to your protests of mourning? The government have ridiculed us for mourning, they don't understand or say they don't understand why women should stand mourning a Constitution. They think we would be much better staying at home and looking after our children. And obviously you both disagree. Well, we think that we do look after our children. We feel very much that this is looking after our children because after all it's the future of our children we're worried about. If I had no children, I don't think my interest would be nearly as keen. In this connection, it's been said that the South African woman, the white woman, occupies a privileged position in the world because of the abundance of servants and cheap labor here. Wouldn't this somehow conflict with what you're trying to do, arouse women to protest? Yes, it does. I think that we are very privileged women in that we are not tied to the kitchen sink as so many women are in other parts of the world. And I think that is all the more reason why women should play their full part in the duties of an individual in a democracy. We feel that democracy cannot work unless every individual knows what her obligations are in a democracy. But I think you're putting the standard of morals very low if you reckon that we are going to go on supporting apartheid just in order to keep our servants. One final question. Being very realistic, how soon can you hope to take off that black sash? Well, I'm afraid not in our lifetime. By far the largest church denomination in the Union of South Africa is the Dutch Reformed Church with a membership of almost two million white and non-white members. With us this morning is Dominique Adrienne Berger, secretary of the Federal Council of Dutch Reformed Churches and editor of Devolekte, the Transvaal Church Magazine. Dominique Berger, you believe in apartheid as a way of life. Yes, I do. In South Africa. Why is that, sir? Because the race, which is in a lesser state of development, is by far in the majority here. And numerically, of course, they are much stronger. And because also I believe that it is, according to God's will, that the white race, which is in the majority in this country, should be preserved. And also everything we have done in the last 300 years and built up in the church and in the state should be preserved. And not be swallowed up by an, I wouldn't say inferior race, because I don't believe it is an inferior race, but a lesser race, which is in a lesser state of development. That's all. You, sir, have been fighting a fight for a long time that requires, as I see it, a great deal of quiet, sustained courage. Don't you ever have a sense of futility, of uselessness? Well, there come times, of course, when one does feel that you're frustrated in what you're trying to do, and yet, on the other hand, there's a great thrill in it. Perhaps you can answer this one question that's intrigued me for a long time. There are, I am sure, devout believers in apartheid who are also devout Christians. Can these two apartheid and Christianity, in your opinion, be reconciled? I'm quite sure that they cannot. One of the mystifying things to me is how anybody who claims to be a Christian can be a disciple of apartheid. Do you find any conflict between apartheid and Christianity? No, certainly not. As a matter of fact, our Dutch-reformed churches are doing much more for the Christianization of the non-white people in this country than any other Protestant church in this country and anywhere in Africa. We as Christians believe in the development of the non-white people, and we certainly try to develop them as far as possible by building their churches, giving, subsidizing them in their church work, and we are also trying to give them leadership where they want it. And our experience is that these people prefer to be left in their own churches. As a matter of fact, there are nine different non-white churches belonging to the Dutch-reformed church amongst the non-white people, and they prefer that. There are instances when we come together on a higher level in conferences and sometimes also in their churches. We often come there as white people to visit them, and there are also instances where we even have communion with them. Can you foresee any eventual end to apartheid in the Dutch-reformed church? The Dutch-reformed church does not practice apartheid because we believe that integration is religiously wrong or ethically wrong. Certainly not. In theory, we have nothing against integration. It's only a matter of practical policy in this country. Now, for this moment, if conditions should change, this or any other practical policy could also be changed. Is there any corollary, do you think, between American segregation and South African apartheid? No, I think, well, in one sense I think it's all part of a world pattern. I think that the white race as a whole finds it extremely difficult to realize that they can no longer dominate the whole world. But the thing that encouraged me in America is that in spite of what has happened and is happening, the general trend is in entirely the opposite direction from what is happening in South Africa. Do you, sir, believe that there's any possibility now or in the immediate foreseeable future of large-scale violence in South Africa? No, there are a lot of people who seem to be very fearful that this may happen. But for my part, I'm convinced that all the responsible leadership among the Africans and the Indians is determined at all costs to prevent violence if they can possibly do so. Mr. Prinsleau, what is the basic philosophy underlying apartheid as a way of life? We Europeans who have lived in this country for more than 300 years have come to a conclusion which is strange to some people in the Western world, namely that the peoples of Africa and so the Bantu people of South Africa have a beautiful civilization of their own which is worth preserving. There are many facets of this civilization, for instance, the social warmth of the Bantu peoples which we Westerners can rightly envy them. Now, we also have a peculiar Western adaptation to Africa. Therefore, we can say that the Bantu peoples are a flower and the Western peoples are a flower each with a beauty of its own. Mr. Prinsleau, I've heard that in the South Africa of today you can be classified as colored simply by looking colored. Is this in point of fact true? Well, I can give you a quote which may seem amusing but rather humiliating incidents that occurred in our country when the Department of Census started reclassifying people. They're all people that trans in the mornings out of the bus queues and took them up to the Native Commissioner's office. And some of the tests applied to tell a man that he was not colored was trying to cross a cone through his ear and the cone stuck, he was told, you're a kaffa. Other people who know this were a bit flat were told, you're not a colored. Mr. Prinsleau, as you are no doubt aware, most criticism of apartheid outside the Union is based largely on moral grounds. For example, the morality of separate residential areas in the cities of the Union, past laws, lack of voting rights and so on. How would you reply to this? As far as residential areas are concerned, the practical situation is that until about ten years ago, there were no residential areas for urban Bantu people. It is only in the last few years that such areas were set aside on a planned basis and developed at a terrific pace as you can see all around you. This housing scheme, which now houses more than 30,000 urban Bantu who work in Pretoria, was a bare plain a mere four years ago. I think that is a complete answer to the so-called immorality of separate residential areas. In the political field, we are creating an outlet in that we are proclaiming Bantu authorities in all the major Bantu areas of the Union. We have already brought into life more than 300 such authorities where Bantu, who have the inclination that training and the moral courage to start developing their own people can do so with all possible assistance from the government. Is the government convinced that the African wants and accepts apartheid as a development policy? For obvious reasons, many opponents of this policy tried to influence the Bantu people in the other direction. And like all new philosophies, like all new policies, we had to put our case to the Bantu people. And I can safely say today that the Bantu people are accepting the policy of self-development, which essentially is apartheid in an ever-increasing temple. I feel confident that the Bantu leadership of Africa, rural and urban, will by the turn of next year show in a most market way that they are satisfied that this policy leads to their salvation. Mr. Nakwe, Mr. Prinslow of the Native Affairs Department told me in Pretoria this week that the African accepts and wants apartheid as a stage of development. The user agrees. Well, Mr. Prinslow's information in mind, and I can claim to be slightly more informed than Mr. Prinslow because I live among the Africans and I am an African, cannot be quite correct at all. The African people are realizing that apartheid means nothing else but oppression and exploitation to them. If Mr. Prinslow's contention is correct, then why do we have the unrest in the countryside, in the most backward areas of the country? If Mr. Prinslow's information is also correct, then why do we have the deposition of chiefs? Why do we have the government agents moving around in the urban, in the rural areas to find out what is going on? If the people were so contented, surely it wouldn't be necessary to have so many agents watching over them. I have had such hatred for every white man that I came across from the earliest days that I could remember. But with the passing of years and having had understanding of fundamental things in life, I have been able to overcome that. But I can assure you that that was one of the greatest struggles that I had to undergo with myself. Mr. Payton, it's a tall order and a big question, but if you can do it, how would you characterize the emotional climate of South Africa today? Well, I think probably it's hotter than it's been for a long time. In what way, in regard to its race problem? In regard to the relations between the groups, I suppose the relations between the English-speaking and the African-speaking group are cold. In view of the daily indignities, humility, and in some cases actual hardships, economic and otherwise, that the non-European is subjected to because of the apartheid laws, do you ever wonder at or a puzzle that a non-European can ever be civil to a white? Well, that thought often occurs to me, Mr. McCutcheon, because you know we have many non-European friends, and sometimes you do wonder how they can go on liking you, you know? Do you, Mr. Payton, fear in the foreseeable future any widespread violence in South Africa? Well, that's what everyone fears. It's not just me. I mean, whether you're a white nationalist or whether you're a black man or whether you're English-speaking, whether you're an Indian, I think all of us have that fear, that violence one day will be violent one day. Mr. Payton, I read a quote by you once, not so long ago, in which, if I can recall it, you said you might hesitate to rush forward to help an African injured on the street. Is that the essence of what you said? Do you recall it? Oh, yes. That was quoted in a book drum by Anthony Simpson. I think it was 1948. I think I've got a bit better since then, but the point I was really trying to make was that in this kind of race-man world in which we live, that a white man, even if he went to the assistance, might well hesitate before he did. I think that you might find that in many parts of the southern states, too. There's been much talk here, I understand, of passive resistance. As a matter of actual fact, however, can the African, the Indian, or the colored in his present economic state financially afford a long period of general strikes or passive resistance? I would imagine no. You know, you haven't got powerful trade unions here who have built up great funds. But nevertheless, I mean, there are significant things happening. You know, you've heard of the bus boycott here in Johannesburg. There was an example where people by their determination forced the, not only the bus companies, but also the government to retreat. Mr. Payton, you love this country very much, despite what's been happening here for the past few years and what's happening here today. How does it make you feel when you are aware that your beloved country is the subject of so much worldwide condemnation? Well, you see, I have so many friends in other countries, Mr. McCutcheon, and I know that I'm not the subject of their condemnation, and I must say that makes it much easier for me to bear. But I understand well the reasons for this condemnation and much of it is justified. But it doesn't personally make me unhappy, except I would say this, that when I go overseas and I meet people who start condemning South Africa, very often I find myself, my blood beginning to get warmer and I find myself defending it, even defending the government, in fact. In what examples, for example? Well, I can give you one very good example. I remember sitting next to a fellow at dinner in San Francisco, and he said to me, this Dr. Malanadius must be a very vicious old man. And I said to him, I said, you know, that's not true. Actually, Dr. Malan is in his own particular white world, he's quite a nice old gentleman. But when he comes into the world of race, and when race morality becomes his supreme morality, which it is, that's what apartheid is, it's race morality, then he will take any step whatsoever to ensure the supremacy of his own people. In other words, Mr. McCutcheon, if you make your own survival, your supreme moral value, then your capable of almost anything, even though you're a nice old man. Mr. Paton is magnificent as this country is physically. Aren't there those who find it difficult, if not impossible, to continue living in this climate of fear? Oh yes, oh yes. I know quite a number of people who have finally decided to leave the country, perhaps for their own sake, perhaps for the sake of their children. This question of apartheid has been placed so far as the non-European is concerned, so purely on a question of color. That theoretically, if a black man should come into power in South Africa, is it not possible that the pendulum might swing the other way? Is there any justification to fear that the white man would, in truth, be driven into the sea? Well, that's a question that lots of people ask and no one can answer, Mr. McCutcheon. I would say that amongst the African people there are some of them who have under this present dispensation, and the dispensations before it will come to hate any kind of color discrimination whatsoever. I find it hard to believe. I mean, I don't say the feeling of revenge will be entirely absent, but I find it hard to believe that they could set up a state in which their whole aim would be to discriminate against white people. I find that difficult. Yes, Master. Ladies and gentlemen, you know that the series of talks that we have been giving here have been talks designed to describe to you how government works. And you've had talks recently on government and law in general, and also a description of how the parliamentary machine works in South Africa. Don't you think, ladies and gentlemen, that the feeling of countries taking the mind of the European people is more work for the liberals to do there than to come and try to cultivate the mind of the African people because I think we are culpable of doing that on our own self without any advice from any angle whatsoever. Let us understand that here in South Africa, and in fact in the whole of Africa, we are dealing with a national question, and Africa is not very peculiar and respect. Nearly every country has had its national problem, and they are always solved by the people according to the needs of the majority of the people in the particular countries concerned. I have, at the present moment, we don't even have the right to stop. Yes, Master. Let's bring up if we could define a term that's intrigued me since you started to use it. You have said repeatedly that the non-European is different from the European. Now, in your mind, is different synonymous with inferior? I think it is a generally accepted fact today that the non-European is at the lowest stage of development than the European. That does not mean to say that there are inherently inferior circumstances amongst which they have grown up, and while their whole cultural background and everything, their whole diet which would lead to physical or physiological changes in their whole nervous system would all lead to a general idea of inferiority amongst them when you compare the average non-European with the European. But I do not believe that the non-European as such is inherently inferior, is merely at a much lower stage of development at the present stage of development. Now, will it take up that too? Yes, boss. Yes, boss. Yes, boss. Yes, boss. Yes, boss. Yes, boss. Yes, boss. You as a man of sensitivity and intelligence ever get used to a party and what it does to you? I'm afraid not, because it continuously affronts me. I am forced to be indignant about it. I cannot get used to it. I must resist it. He's a man.