 illustrious set of people in the panel. Each one of them a big achiever in their own right. Not only that have also contributed something to this sector, the education sector, the learning and related areas. So I'm really glad privileged and thank you so much for inviting me over. I'm going to keep this short. Let me start by saying why I believe this sector, education, if at all you call it a sector, they call it by different names. Why is it interesting for people? The first thing I noticed is in the history of mankind, no country ever had so many young people and this is increasing. The demographic bulge in India is going to be around by some prediction till 2050. Could be more depending on how we do the replacement rate but it's going to be there for a very long time and then I realized it is not just the young population. I just add some statistics. The middle income group or the middle age population which has the most propensity to spend on education which is proven globally. We had about 432 million which is about 35 percent of our population in 2021 goes all the way to 715 million by 2030 and a whooping 1.02 billion by 2047 which is like 100. So it's like you're not only going to have young population but also have those who have the propensity to spend more and more and more so we're seeing this sector's revenue I don't know quadruple multiplied by 710 whatever. So that's what. Second thing that we also see the market with the industry 4.0 and other things constantly changing what they want making it clear that it's no more only the youngsters who go through education. Anybody who thinks they'll do the padai till about 25 30 years and then they can rest or in for a big shock and there is a statistic that says anybody born after 2007 has a 97 percent probability of living more than 100 years. So many of the youngsters will have a long that means what they need to have continuous education and industry 4.0 digital technologies have changed what is required. On the other hand the employees I mean there is a new term called gig employment and gig employees nobody wants to stick to one job for a long time. I now wonder my dad spent 42 years in one firm one organization nobody can even think of those things nowadays so that means what new talent new skills reskilling upskilling needs to happen continuously there add to it idiosyncrasies of our own country like you know very few quality institutions for a very large number of people the whatever like the preparation for it the examinations for it all of them make it even more attractive from somebody who wants to invest in this sector. So in the light of all these things let me start with you actually because I read recently that US had the maximum number of students from India for the first time beating China there are many reasons for it but then the lure of you know foreign educational institutions is rising continuously but at the same time I also saw this bill that is there that is allowing foreign institutions to come into India. What is your take you are in the sector you are like connecting people connecting students what's your take on what's the opportunity in the sector in this space. No I first of all thank you and I agree with a lot of things that you spoke about education as the and I'm sure everybody sitting on this panel is missionary first and then the kind of thing about business specifically coming to your question about I actually don't read too much in two numbers and the fact that India has surpassed so and so country and they are a larger contingent so and so forth it boils on to just one simple thing which we were very briefly talking about before we got on the stage are you getting an outcome at the end of the program US historically has done very well at ensuring an outcome at the end of the program so somebody is able to get a job they have a very well designed post study program which is the OPT and people have historically done very well in that geography and you have people who are in decision making ability within the US federal section and things like that so I think that's one reason at the same time while I'm very enthusiastic as a patriot that so many of these institutions are choosing to set up campuses in this university called Wolfgang which is a set up a campus in gift city Australian University but I think there's still a very long way to go where we can actually give these folks outcomes we have a lot of universities in India that I very deeply respect at that spectrum of 20 lakh rupee to 50 lakh rupee there is no commensurate outcome for it except a couple of business schools and they're also kind of slightly slacking there at the moment till the time we actually can have the right ROI delivered against the higher education program that I'm pursuing I think everything else is more like there's nothing very concrete there so people choose to go to a UK and a Canada and Australia because for about 10 15 20 lakh rupees they get a 30 lakh rupee job and that for them is like a great ROI as compared to driving a bike in Navi Mumbai or Whitefield or like say Okla so that segment it's very exciting for them to kind of move abroad in the same time for people who are essentially going to spend 50 lakh rupees for a program in India which will get a job in India we need to create those sort of jobs as well to absorb that amount of population so I think there's some time away at the same time Indian talent is I'll just end by saying that the Indian talent is in top form right now they're able to choose which country they go to so countries are bending their will and their policies to attract the right talent from India and hence you see a posterity work visa in the UK three year posterity work visa in Australia compared to two year in UK the OPT changes in the US everybody really wants Indian talent so that they can also fill in that shortfall that they have from a talent perspective as well so thank you so much so nice to hear that actually coming from you who knows what is happening there the demand for Indian talent we also observe in the market is only growing across you know not just professional services firms like us even manufacturing across sectors we see this happening so it's nice to hear that I also wish the other side of that you said the Indian institutions get only better and better but there is enough and more runway for you know the foreign education institutions to look at the Indian market for that the other thing I also liked and what you said is the returns there is a value that our institutions will learn soon and maybe come up to be but taking on from there if the demand for education is high and mobility of global talent is high so should be the demand for international curriculum and education right from schooling right I also see more and more parents now willing to quote unquote experiment look at alternates what is your view when you run one of the most successful international school chains what is your view in terms of a demand for international curriculum and international education in India so firstly thank you for those kind words and you know I think there's massive demand for international education I think over the last decade we've been seeing a growth spurt in international schools that have been coming up initially it was in the metros we're now seeing them even in the tier one tier two cities and I can rattle off some numbers and tell you so many international schools came up in the last three years five years seven years but I think I look at this slightly differently sir for me the international part of the education and if I'm if I may just take two minutes to break this up when we look at schools when we look at curriculum there are two parts to it one is the what and the other is the how so the what is what you teach what is the curriculum what is the syllabus as we used to call it when we all were in school the how is what is the focus what is the methodology what is the actual learning outcome of education so the real growth today why are international schools doing really well because they have made education relevant learners are learning skills focusing on values focusing on certain things that every school feels is necessary to make them relevant 10 years 15 years from now when we don't know what jobs will exist what jobs would have been replaced what skills will be required today if they have to compete with a machine if you and me have to compete with a machine we can't win we will make a mistake the machine won't but there are certain skills like communication entrepreneurship there are certain values like respect humility honesty I think if we are able to teach them that and get them through that phase of education and give them the right skills and the right values that irrespective of how the world is five years 10 years 15 years from now they can thrive and they can compete I think that's what's made international education really popular you know today it's not about what date did a certain event happen in history or who was responsible for it or which location it happened because information is available at a click of a button the real question is what impact did that event have today if you're looking at the dandi march it's about what impact did the dandi march have what impact did did gandiji have to us as a nation and I think that's what today's learners today's kids have to learn so when I said the growth of international education yes there is a lot of growth there's a lot of opportunity lots of international schools will come up but I think the real growth will come when schools that are not necessarily following international curriculums can adapt and adopt the best practices from international education irrespective of whether you're running a state-run school a national-run school or an international school use those in their teaching methodologies in their assessment patterns today I think mental math is really important so it's important to learn your five times six times seven times stable but it's not important to assess them on saying what is five into eight and six into seven it's more as a skill for memory for logical thinking so if the reason why you're doing it is right and that's what a lot of international schools have been able to adapt then the real growth comes with the impact international education can have and just going by what you said sir the population is only growing the number of kids that are going to come into education are more and more and more so to make them relevant to make sure that they are relevant and successful till the age of 100 is the job that we have to focus on so for me I think it's the impact that international schools can have the program adapting the best practices in all the schools in India or in as many schools in India as we can and I think that's where the real growth story is very well said Kunal very very well said so it's not just some esoteric curriculum that is making the difference but it is the how part of it and most importantly I like the way you said the curriculum kind of teaches you to learn more and be ready for the future and not just certain technical subjects as a part of it yeah like today I think getting information is not a problem channelizing the information and being able to analyze it and use it in the right way wonderful is is the key right so internationalization is more on the process and the methodology rather than just occurring very well said I'm not going to turn to you all nice things said about internationalization international schools but it is our traditional schools that have created this bus if today there are we are world beaters and the world wants our talent it is because of traditional schools that have created this talent and you represent one of the most prominent and the most well-known brand in schools how do you see this trend happening like how do you see a technology that is coming to disrupt an internationalization that is coming to disrupt the existing way of working and how do you see the traditional schools reacting to it sure thank you so much for that question Narayanan and thank you for setting the tone since we are still having a cricketing fever a cricketing hangover going on your the Rohit Sharma for setting the tone in this graveyard shift of the afternoon so thank you for setting the platform but to your question about this disruption of whether it's technology or internationalization which are two different things by the way technology with this latest you know everyone's trying to run behind these buzzwords we weren't education conferences say before the pandemic and at that time people would be talking about you know having these google meet kind of virtual learnings and nobody thought it was possible and yet the pandemic showed all schools that that is exactly how you'll have to manage at least for this one hour or two years and now everyone's talking about AI VR AR MR XR etc etc now in these fancy buzzwords have we somewhere lost the woods for the trees now it's not a question of if but when at least some of these technologies will become mainstream in education whether inside classrooms outside classrooms at homes but the fundamental question still lies is in are we serving the purpose of education getting children ready with the life skills that they will require to tackle all of those challenges head on when they have to hit them yet we live in a country that is anachronistic in its education system where what should parents be sending their children to schools for so that they can maximize the inherent talents excel at what they are best in yet when you actually go to the writing board and check what are parents sending their children to schools for so that they can get the best marks at the end of the day a lot of Indian education is revolving around this unhealthy pursuit of marks what do the marks measure for a very large part and I would go so far to say that even international schools and traditional and national and state boards have this pursuit of marks in a different manner in a different way where the marks measure wrote memorization regurgitation yes international schools do have a little bit more of subjectivity in seeing how the child is thinking about an answer rather than just that one right answer but you can have only so much subjectivity if you want a final pen and paper test or a final mcq test at the end of the day assessments itself if it's only measuring marks which is measuring memorization regurgitation and then we as education heads trustees wish that our children are actually being brought up with skills like communication critical thinking resilience the ability to cope with limited resources all of these things which of these skills do our tests measure and if we as education heads to start measuring that to the Akshay was talking about the outcome at the university level the outcome is the final job that you get what package do you get at k-12 what is the outcome is it the number of marks that you get unfortunately yes today it is which college did I get into it for my 1112 so which college did I get into for my after 1112 to my undergrad if that is going to measure wrote memorization and regurgitation then at the end of the day we are still going around in the same circles that what many of us learned in the 80s and 90s so I think a soul searching needs to be done whether it is through technology or whether it's the internationalization of education of how will we be able to assess and truly measure and get the parents to actually desire to want those skills that the children should be brought up with rather than us throwing it down there throw that no these are the important skills this is what your child should learn yes they should learn that but at the end of the day if the if the college is not going to give them admission on that but going to give them admission on if that is what it's going to ball down to then I think we're barking up the wrong tree but do you think things are changing absolutely I think things are changing but unfortunately it's a very slow process and when I say things are changing I'll tell you this not only in terms of education circles and people who are running schools but even the cbsc's and the icsc's are changing you go to conferences where they are speaking and they are also speaking these same things but let's not forget that cbsc has 22,000 schools and of those 22,000 schools maybe not even five percent of those will be in conferences like this 95 percent of those are in the hinterland of India who don't really see these things as requirements so even if cbsc does try to push this can they truly push it down to the stop law level to the 22,000 schools those are challenges that they have which the other side generally doesn't see I understand it's a bit of chicken and egg because when I speak to no in fact it's a bit of chicken and egg because when you meet parents they say the schools don't offer this and you talk to schools they say the parents don't request or look for these things but somewhere it is changing but you're not happy with the pace of change like you know it has to and also the change with all the stakeholders concern should come in fantastic Mithan definitely not the least like you know I want to ask you see these changes many things that we all spoke are all happening in urban India things are changing a lot and we see distinct changes happening also in certain curriculum schools assessment and other things but in the hinterland do you think anything is changing at all one and for those who want to invest in this sector do you think there is anything attractive to go beyond the metros okay so I think you know both my colleagues here shared some numbers right so if I add I build on to what Raghav was saying there are you know there are 280 million school going children entrepreneurs like Kunal Raghav and the great school chains reach out to maybe three million max if I like stretch my imagination yeah three million four million out of 280 million kids and you know as you as as you were mentioning earlier Narayanan you know the the next five countries kids in the k-12 age group next five countries put together as a size of India like China US and you know a couple of more Southeast Asian countries now these kids half of them are going to government schools and half of them are going to private schools so there are 450,000 private schools cbsc reaches 22,000 so who are the rest they're all state board schools that's where our kids are going now if I connected to the question that you're asking right that I think the beauty of India is that all these parents are aspiring for a great education what does great education mean to them even though the parents are uneducated they get that great education means my child should be able to apply the learning in life you talk to a farmer who sends his child to my school you know his his dialogue actually to one of my investors was sir kitabh gyan or saihi gyanke beech mein difference pata hai humko hum parhe likhe nahi hai you know like I know the difference between vocation rote learning and real learning so they know that they also aspire for their kids to be proficient in English language so that the kids can get higher education in India or outside because unfortunately we don't have IITs that are running in vernacular languages we don't have all of the top institutions are in English language right so I think now one can see this as a problem I choose to see it as an opportunity when there is a population of people who aspire for big things and for their children well then that's where all of us come into the picture where we have to bring innovative solutions to these schools for them to be able to uplift learning outcomes so do I see hope I see hope all around because of the fact that you have a paying parent you know and I actually would love to also take another analogy when I talk to investors particularly you know one question that I get asked is oh do does this parent segment even have enough disposable income guess what you you don't look at these households from a disposable income point of view most of the parents who are sending their children to affordable or low income schools are borrowing and if there is good if there are good credit options for them which is I think shifted in the last 10 years the number of nbfcs who are able to lend to these families is you know what is it unlocking for them it is unlocking education for their children because they see the education of their child as an investment to their family's income to grow so you know this is not about disposable income for them these are the families who will borrow money to send their children to great schools so I think that opportunity exists it is now really for all of us to see can we bring that innovation can we uplift these schools from the rote learning that they were doing irrespective of what the board says you know and and actually take them forward you know there are there's there's a great thing about these boards and there is also an opportunity again right like yeah boards are testing as Raghava was saying rightfully they are testing for rote learning but the good thing is they only test for grade 10 and there is this freedom that the private schools have to decide what they do with their kids at least till grade 8 you know the way we design curriculum is let's look at what the international schools are doing our parents are not going to be able to afford that education can I you know both from the what and the how as Kunal was saying can I learn from that and can I basically bring it to all of these children and really prepare them for the future until eight standard no one will ask me a question it is only for the school owner and the parent to decide that hey this is the right thing for my kids and many of them are taking that leave and then nine tenths well cram and get past the board exam kids who are smart and who have the thinking ability communication skills collaboration skills can ace any sort of examination right so so I think see my view on this is the ecosystem is going to change the regulatory ecosystem is going to change NEP is a great step in that direction you know when I read the NEP document my first observation was whoever has written the document has finally understood what IB is trying to do because pretty much borrowed from IB which is great for our country but in you know realistically speaking the government is going to take a long time to implement it it's been five years I haven't seen much movement state governments are even way behind CVSE so it's a long journey we don't have to wait people like us can actually bring up a lot of innovative solutions parents and schools are ready to lap it up ready to lap it up it's really in our in our hands thanks mitha wonderful I mean just a point on NEP we worked with different countries the pace at which things change in education is very long like you know we talk a lot about Finnish education it took 30 long years for them to change right started in mid-70s and only recently they are known for that so I guess NEP will take time but I like the point that you said you know you need not change the world or you need not keep waiting for everything to change like I said I like the theory of constraints let them remain where they are in whatever possible weekend can we change and can we look at this to improve ours that's the beauty of this democracy right the fact that India government allows for private schools to thrive means that now the power is with the parents and as long as that power is there well the parents are willing to pay and the parents do aspire for a lot for their kids so there is a big opportunity on the NEP comment I mean if we compare versus the countries which are amongst the top ranked PISA countries well the pace at which India is trying to implement NEP I mean my humble submission would be we are just too slow if Finland took 30 years and Singapore took 30 years the rate at which we are going we'll take 60 so I honestly feel that there is a lot more that needs to happen and I think one of the things that you know structurally has to open up in India is that the government bodies and organizations have to see private players who've already done quite a bit of that I mean if you see international schools for the last 15 years I've been doing what NEP is talking about I mean my I put my kid and she's 15 years old and she's in an international school she's an Indian she's born here and you know if she can get it why not others I think the it will be great if the government partners with the private sector you know people like Kunal and Raghav and there are many others such entrepreneurs if that opens up I think there is there is velocity that can come in and you know if there are any government officials listening that's my humble request to all of them that hey we we are in this together we have to solve this problem together government alone can't solve it private sector alone can't solve it I agree but as you also rightly said the bulk of it is in state boards bulk of it is in public schools so when you're talking about large scale change private sector schools are state boards sorry bulk of schools are state boards bulk of kids are in both places and if government does not move then the secular trend is for all parents to move their kids to private schools that's what's happening we have about 1.6 million schools in the country right now one of the the highest in the world but I take your point somewhere the change needs to happen so this is very very interesting we talked about not just the international curriculum or the ethos or the concept of international curriculum and how we can follow and also the angst that you know the current way we are doing things for historical reasons is not leading us to the right direction and also how we can you know work around that and still make things happen I'm also conscious that we are talking about investment in the sector so we have you know many people here who have the money backs to invest in the sector are those who want to enter into the sector for this so I see it in multiple dimensions one as you rightly touched is regulation right does the regulation allow us to get into the sector invest in other things second is money itself financing like you know how do you finance for some of these transformations third in my views technology and how that can create a difference because I see technology being disruptive in the way it can change things and not wait the long haul and other things last of course the people availability for this you can't change you see so I just want to understand your perspectives if there is somebody sitting here wanting to invest in the sector what would be your advice what are the areas in which you think from a pure investment return perspective what could be the areas in which they should be focusing yeah so I think it's an interesting question and it really depends on what your objectives are what your goals are I mean there are people today who are investing into education because they see a quick multiple on it and it's a five-year or 10-year horizon that I'll buy at x and then I'll sell it at 3x 5x or whatever the multiple might be if that is what your real true objective and goal is then you're anyway is going to be following what the PE firms and all are doing in just investing in pure basic numbers however coming from a group where we are now 97 years old August 1927 was our first school just down the road here in Santa Cruz and we don't look at education like that education is not an excel spreadsheet with numbers on it it's inside classrooms education is not a transactional phenomenon it's a relationship phenomenon that a teacher forms with each and every one of our students and then those students are your return on investment over 10 20 30 years I met just now somebody who's an alumni at one of my schools and he's been at IMM Dabbar then he's going to be speaking on the next panel and I was so proud to hear that and what return on investment can you give on that full so you touched a very important point if you are looking at just pure commercial returns then you know watch out like you know you're going to be disappointed is what you're saying right actually if I can I would I would have a different take on that rather than simply it's a tagline that we use within our organization that in our business which is true for all of us Saraswati comes first Lakshmi follows Saraswati so you know there is a lot of there are very good commercial outcomes out here as I was saying there is big appetite for parents to spend because they aspire they're an aspiring nation there is a lack of good solutions and that is a great hence investable opportunity I think what I at least see I've been in this space now for 15 years right I think what happened over the last four five years at least my observation around was that we got distracted we got distracted with B2C at Tech we got distracted because I think B2C works for a certain age group and you know two things happened one we sort of just did the this for that or this works in China so it will work in India it won't China is 97% public schools India is not it's very different well we've also seen the downside of that right so in China you cannot improve public schools but in India that's not true you have a massive private school opportunity so there is so much that you can do in that sector because it's a open capital market structure right so I think one was that which derailed us and the second thing that derailed us was Covid because suddenly everyone was like what works for older kids which is online and you know what works for adult learning works for K-12 well all of us who are running who are running schools or work with schools we know and anyone who's a parent in the room knows they don't want their seven-year-old kid to learn online or even a 10-year-old is not going to learn online so I think those were the two things that derailed now media can capture this the way it is but you know people in the sector were making some bad choices I think some sanity has come in and hence if you really look at the successful models across the world institutional B2B, ATEC is really the sustainable businesses they are listed companies they are actually they have great returns they are able to provide commercial returns at the rate at other industries do so I think I think it is you know to answer your question well my my thing to investors would be you know you guys missed the bus maybe or it happens we all learn but I think now we're in a place where it's fairly crystal clear that if it is K-12 you should be investing in institutional or school at tech and if it's higher ed then well yes you know then B2C works because this is an adult who is going to take responsibility for their learning and they want to do it on the go while they're also working which is something that I think Akshay was also sort of referring to earlier. Wow in fact you touched upon a very sensitive kind of the B2B versus B2C that's happening and you also gave a solution saying that is schools better go B2B and if it is higher education then look at B2C you know what there is this concept of where is the margin are we really doing well when it comes and I all many of my clients I see the ones who are in B2C always think that grass on the other side is greener they want to come to B2B and let me tell you vice versa people who are in B2B always think the B2C guys are making a lot of money. Thankfully we didn't but we got advised a lot but yeah your your question is on margins is it on yeah I know is it is it so crystal clear that you need to go only here or is there a middle if you think about margins essentially there are two parts to it right one part is unit economics unit economics says you have to be very clear about the consumer segment you are targeting and you have to build a product solution that makes it affordable for them there is no like I you know international schools for example if I look at that the unit economics are not relevant for the affordable segment or the lower segment they're not relevant you have to think about it very differently there I think in B2C unit economics was less of a problem in K-12 higher education I don't know much about I think the the the second cog in that wheel is CAC you know when you reach a school you've reached a community and once you're with the school you are impacting that community in many ways but if you're doing B2C you're reaching out to every single student and I think that's where my understanding is that the business models broke down so there is a lot of money to be made as I said uh but the different projections were made five years back you know so I'm so sorry to interrupt sir could we keep that as a final thoughts could we go for a final thoughts as we are running short on time just the final thoughts in the final will be great sure sorry yeah so then uh let me just quickly add one thing in the whole investment part that you uh you know asked about I think all relevant points here but I think people who are looking to invest in education have to consider the entire government intervention and the government rules regulations policies they're very different for different sectors within education so K-12 is very different higher education is very different there are a lot of unregulated sectors which makes investments a lot easier so just in the interest of time what I'd like to share is that it's really important for an investor to understand the government repercussions the government uh you know what are the kind of interventions that they can have in that micro space within education because if you don't understand that uh you know you've heard of stories that could go horribly wrong and then you don't want that you'll repent at least you don't want that just to kind of answer the same question and take a cue first of all let me say that when Raghav said three to five X multiple it almost broke my heart a little but and you said it's exciting so that broke my heart a little bit more but I think it has to be just looked at from a very I think education is also very complex business to fund and measure uh we are in some sense B2B2C and when I think about the challenges with B2B2C we often look at the fact that does profitability really count like I'm very envious of people who run school and university chains because at a certain volume it's a massive cash generating business and you actually start piling cash uh you don't have massive working capital cycles as are seen in my business uh does profitability count or does free cash flow really count uh has the education investment landscape become mature enough to value a company on free cash flows that even if a business is starting to generate free cash flow and even if it is minimal they're on that path to essentially build a very large business in the next three five seven years so I think the investment landscape has to mature up over the next five years for them to really kind of really agree with the larger point Smitha was making that and just one example in terms of like my business we have seen if people really are getting the outcomes they will do anything to get there uh we have seen in Punjab the government has introduced IELTS classes in public schools government schools so English language learning has become so important that and by the way we see 38 percent students drop off and they're not able to go and study abroad because their conditional offer letter does not become an unconditional offer letter because it don't classify their English language learning IELTS so fail PT whatever that be so we have seen that the government is actually it's so energetic about it that they introduced that in government schools and they're saying the IELTS here and then essentially be able to do this so the right entrepreneurs and the right systems private systems more specifically we'll come in and be able to do things which really result into I'm again emphasizing the right outcomes and the investment system will have to actually of course mature over the next three four years either which way we see we see a large opportunity you know in whichever sector we see but that word of caution is actually very valid it is a regulated sector it is in a lot of sense like government has control or it's a watch out for some of those this has been wonderful I know we are running out of time but let me tell you something I learned so much in this conversation it is almost like a masterclass on you know investment into the sector a lot of takeaways lack of time I'm not summarizing I was planning to do but thank you so much for being such lovely panelists and sharing all your you know the the learnings that you had over so many years of your experience thank you so much