 Hello everybody if it's Wednesday, it's Warhammer, and that must mean it's time for another episode of Warhammer Weekly Joining me as always my one my only my favorite my my true True co-host it's Tyler. What's up, buddy? How you doing? Wow? You really embellished that time your favorite I'm glad to be here with Jeff. No, I'm the one and only Absolutely, so we're joining us for the first time on the show Jeff. What's going on, buddy? How you doing? What's doing good? Fantastic Jeff is a Nurgle expert and tournament organizer And just all around awesome person so we are happy to have him on the show to talk both Nurgle and Everything else we're gonna talk about tonight, but that is our chief topic of discussion. We're gonna revisit Nurgle it's been out now for several months did our initial sort of Hot takes hold up to scrutiny in the light of day Spoiler, yes is it's Warhammer Weekly. So obviously we nailed it obviously we nailed it ten out of ten This is gonna be just a victory lap of a show just Just celebrating in the end zone. Absolutely. All right, but of course first the news All right Apparently everybody's favorite segment of the show Rumor engine. Yeah, I have no idea what this is F as the guest We're gonna let you have the distinct privilege Making the first dumb guess tonight What what would you say the rumor engine is Jeff what is this strange mallet? I mean, it's obviously a mallet, but what is this mallet I? Cannot see it currently one second. That's okay. Okay. Okay. There it is. There it is. I see I see it. Okay Looks like a haphazardly put together Like that's a MacGyver mallet. It looks like so I would say that's that's gonna be at least goblins of some sort I would think gets maybe Well, so a couple of things we have here is as as signifiers You'll notice we do have our check pattern up near the hilt Which is of course our checks and or DAGs a signifier of orcs and or goblins So that that right there is a good good clue Obviously, it's shoddy construction the bent nails It tells me it's a blood bowl thing like it's Like the little mallet. I feel like this is a blood bowl gets Star player or gets expansion or something of that nature Like someone who has brought a mallet onto the field I Don't know what star player that would be I don't know. They could always make a new one. It's this true Not like they've even done that before right? Yeah, they yeah, I mean like they do they do often favor remaking past Star players, but they there's nothing stopping them from From remaking a star player. Sorry making a new star player, but anyway, that's what it feels like to me So sadly likely not within our realm, but at any rate such as life Hmm Right and more exciting news Last Friday We have the reveal of the next Warhammer Underworld's nether maze Mm-hmm, and Vince. I know you happen to have an opinion. Whoo. That's right, baby We did it. We did it unfurl the banner mission accomplished. We have new ninja rat sculpts It has happened. There it is. I heard there was another team Crew warband in this box. I don't care. It's irrelevant. I don't have a photo of them They're just more shadow stonkers. They do serve Marathi So all the people last week when I was like, oh, it's gonna be Marathi's people and this and they're like Nah dog. It's malaria and we're gonna finally get a malaria crew and I'm like, okay, you can keep keep on that Hopium Now I'll be all on board when like a year from now two years from now whenever we get malaria and they're like Oh, the shadow stonkers were double agents the whole time working for malaria and while serving Marathi like sure, man I can see that But they're clearly but they but they're so it's like it's just new shadow stonkers. They're just variant shadow stonkers They're fine. This is where the action is though Uh, this This is amazing. This is what we all wanted I think I can say with a hundred percent certainty that this is what every single man woman child Who plays or is familiar with age of sigmar wanted? This is a Zero percent miss rate right here. This is exactly dead on. This is perfection in miniature form Well done We did it We've reached the mountaintop. We have new eshen rats All that could be better is if we just turn this into a box set like pack two of these together Into a box set boom, there's your gutter runners night runners Like put it have some different options for builds for switching weapons And i'm good to go like that's it The someone who doesn't know rats very well of the five are these all going to be class So presumably one of these is going to be a hero And then are these others all going to be classified? Yeah, I think the guy up front is supposed to be the hero like the guy on the pipe It's supposed to be still pretty cool pose if you really look at that That's a really cool pose. Yes. He's also was a rumor engine right? He was the one on the pipe. We saw a long time ago Uh, yeah, these are the rest of these are just all gutter runners Yeah, I mean or like the difference between what a night runner is and what a gutter runner is like and sculpt is hard to tell Because we've been relying on the same old sculpts of two different varieties for like a million years So traditionally the gutter runners were more Sort of thin and had heavier cloaks and more accoutrements better weapons But that's because they were still an old metal slash fine cast out of the like mid 90s Whereas the night runners were built out of the night runner plastic kit box set Which is this set which is the kit I bought in like 1998 or nine or whatever for my mordheim crew Right when the mordheim book came out and it's the exact same box you can go and buy today Uh, so real winner there Uh The but all these are great. I like jumping smoke guy the best. I think he's amazing Uh smoke bomb being a classic part of it, but but they're all great. I like them all so I'm down with these guys. They yeah, definitely so Related to this we had Two images floating around this week I've reboxed rats as well Normally meaning that a book might be on the way Uh Does this mean a new battle tome is on the way is that is that is This statement. Yes. Yes. Like it's look. Yes. I mean how many times can we say it? We've been saying that the summer book chaos book is going to be Uh Escaping book and this just proves it in my mind We're there now am I sad we're not going to get re sculpted clan rats or plague monks Sure, but I've already said I live in the worst of all possible worlds Where I expect to get like zero re sculpts like this is in my mind if the new sculpts we're getting Which by the way, I mean it's not bad I can you just as soon as they put these out individually You can now pay a lot of money for your night runners and gutter runners because you can get there um so Uh, but you know, yes, it's it's absolutely a scaven book. Scaven are cool for the summer. That's that's obvious I agree with that. I'll take that. Yeah I think that's all we got Yeah, simple quick news week, but but a great news week It doesn't matter when when one item hits like a meteor that ends the dinosaurs. You don't need anything else. Okay You just you've got We have new scaven ninja rats. This is Truly truly a great time to be alive. So Uh, like drop done. Yeah, exactly like shut it down. Frankly. We we've done it. It's over. Yep. It's all done Okay, uh So, yeah, but I mean these guys are great. So I think that they're they're Uh, they're painted a little differently than most people expect like they have a slightly off Unusual rat skin tone, but I think if you paint them in the normal like pan tone of of of scaven I think they'll they'll look awesome Anywho, um Yeah, let's get into some pick of the week so pick of the week Jeff Hit us up. You're the guest What's your pick there my dog? It's an online, uh Store, I guess you could say uh mini stomp.com Really, I mean It's veteran owned so I mean and they actually just did a bunch of uh Deals where a lot of their stuff that you would buy They donated to the ukrainian crisis and whatnot. So that was really cool on on mini stomp's part But uh, you know, it was really good deals every so often on twitter You'll see like a spicy deal So he's got like all like the really hot stuff and then you know, he gets a really good price forward So also I I enjoy that chase thinks I haven't played a nizumi at some point in my role-playing career Like I haven't played multiple nizumi throughout my life. I I do like them very much chase uh Okay, so Tyler, what's your pick? You got like what's your picks tyler? You got like a number now and by the way good pick Jeff mini stomp is awesome Uh quick note if you go to his website, it's just like signing up for the email That's what you're doing and then that's how you you communicate with them It's not like you don't order through the website. So don't think it's weird, but yes mini stomp is awesome. Okay Hit us with your plethora of picks Been watched a lot of aos coach over the last week He had two excellent shows one with emma mangles. They were the well at adept con So hopefully everybody knows but now uh, she rocked it with rock bringer Oven a a rare pick in the nergal scene. She went four and one did amazingly well with it It was a really fascinating episode hearing her talk through a very johnny list Uh a lot of details that she went into with it. So that was an awesome show to buy us Twice kimpf. I believe I'm forgetting his last name. He was he did a show recently on bellicorps nergal That was really intriguing on a different list there Our friend matt swiney. He's our bogey opponent vince for you and I at national At had a had a great show on storm cast. Yeah, we're calling the game five terror That's what he does. You think you're on a run toward five and oh and matt swiney shows up when he's like Dikembe mutombo just right out of there. No, no, no boom shut you down Yep having to both of us And then work charge gaming oscar and the folks over there They just had an rtt one day or over the past weekend running more coda and they put their games online There's a lot of cool matchups like gits versus ogres knight haunt versus beast claw raiders Skaven is you know the kind of mid tier List not a lot of the top stuff, but it was yeah, it was really interesting to see Always cool to see the missions get played and how folks are playing them. So Yeah, that that wasn't too many It's like five or six you you you got right through that that was great After mission this man's event E so i've been attending this man's event. We're gonna get the nash con Gateway open mess fixed next year one way or another right jeff That's the plan for that on this show to where we don't have to keep doing this Okay, so gateway open. When is it this year august 20th and 21st And 21st Seriously, I'd probably tell you you're if I hated your term and I'd probably tell you because I respect you I appreciate that You run a fantastic event. Uh been many years. It's always incredible. Yeah happens just outside of st Lewis and across the river and where Collinsville, Illinois. That's actually yep Day gt. It's amazing. Everybody check it out. We'll have the link below And yes, hopefully we will have this to where people can actually attend both nash con and gateway open So gate Dave griffin if you're listening as well One of you guys got to fix this I got to talk I got to talk to my guy again I'm sorry to put you on the spot. No, I hope you all get it worked out because uh, it seems like a great tournament But my my loyalties are already they are they I have my priority. So there it is I can't fault you for that. But yeah, I mean Like one of the to's gives away swords as a prize. So I don't I can't do that. Yeah, it's this is what I'm saying I'm going with a sword and somebody That's what it is Uh at any rate, um, my pick of the week is very simple Uh, and that is to our good friend uncle Adam who put out an awesome video interviewing a bunch of content creators at adept con this last Friday So we interviews maniac scott and ninja and lila mev and a bunch of other wonderful people And just talks to them about Creating content and why they do it and what motivated them to do it So if you're at all interested in content creation or content creators or doing it for yourself I think it was just a really sort of illuminating video about The process and about what motivates these people So There you go. Go check it out. It was a really good really good interview and it's uh, well done as always by Uh by adam. So okay Cool. Uh, well with that, let's turn to some uh, some hobby time Uh chef What's on your table, man? What are you been working on? I currently just finished pinning up my lord of afflictions and currently working on some blight lords for vault wars Tyler's uh tournament and may so I've been juggling that and just having a a little nirgling of my own So it's been uh, my wife actually got a picture of me today where I had him on the boppy And I'm sitting there painting my my blight lords and she's like I got to send this to people. I'm like, okay fine And nirgling's our hot pick right now. So I thank you for introducing a new one to the world He definitely is trust me. Holy cow Very nice. All right, tyler Did you paint anything? Thank you nailed it After me that might become a relevant question. We'll see. Yeah. Yeah I don't know when you're gonna start painting terrain or start painting units because of the terrain So I don't know I gotta ask everyone now. It's just being responsible Sure, sure endless spells are units, right jeff pretty sure endless spells count as a unit Yeah, we're gonna go with that to the book No, I so let's I mean, I'm actually kind of curious myself. No, I mean technically I guess This this became a big argument if you don't remember Oh, dear god versus is it a unit versus a model and so on and so forth at any rate continue Was that really seriously? Yeah, because there was a whole rules interaction that was happening around that I know nirgle you get disease points Otherwise, we let's see a lot going on uh disease points. Yeah, that's true. You do. Yeah, if they're if they're casted by the appropriate nirgle Yes, if they're okay. Yeah At any rate, let's see. Yeah a lot going on obviously of all wars. We Got the trophies in from dark fantastic mills. They look amazing. So thank you to Gary over there that man does awesome work He did a custom one for us. So I'm really excited about that Oh, got a game in against dragons and more dragons A few liberators thrown in there With my modified storm cast list added lork man or badass took out five retributors and cogs. I had points perfect for him. Love that guy a good game Definitely the what do they call priority targets that made a difference? That's why I won that game priority targets. That's a thing apparently in some games. Who knew? Yeah Okay, there you go. Oh, wait, you were playing storm cast and you went and hunted the priority targets. So the clever redistribution of wealth scheme That was meant to give power to the weak armies and knock down armies like storm cast In fact, what you're saying is that the wealthiest were the best posed to take advantage of this redistribution scheme Hmm nailed it that that sounds like something somebody on some show may have said at one point At one point that maybe storm cast would be in a good position to capitalize on this own weakness in their Weakness in their army as with seraphon and everything else. So at any rate. Yeah, not surprising What a what a surprise Shocking the army that has 50 hammers that can kill things easily is able to capitalize on that system That's so weird, man. I don't I don't know. I didn't see it coming Uh my hobby time Uh I'm actually painting something I can share. How about that? Yay Wow, I'm painting this girl the gladiatorix from the Arena of shadows box set or whatever Um, I am painting her up Ostensibly in my head as a potential golden demon entry But as a tribute to Gavin Garza, uh, so he is the slayer sword winner from the u.s Uh, I am going what I would like to call full skink mode on this piece Really trying to focus in my practice on doing clean smooth like perfectly executed careful work not a style I normally paint and I will be honest I'm normally pretty loosey goosey and then come back later And clean up but the problem is with that is then you don't always remember to clean everything up And I think this is one of my challenges So, um, so I'm paying trying to paint in a slightly different style and explore new ways To paint expand my repertoire, you know, always keep learning and pushing yourself Uh, she's really fun. She's such a great model. And I think she's like a perfect model for this kind of a test Uh, so yeah, so maybe we'll you know, maybe she'll end up being a submission Maybe she won't I don't know but it's still a good still a great exercise to push yourself So it's been very cathartic. I will say to it. Totally do it Yeah, everything was white noise after you said full skink mode Fact that that's a phrase that's now out in the universe. We're gonna have to do a lot of work on the show Putting it out there. I'm just saying next time you go all in on a clean paint job Trying to make real smooth Right just get to that buttery smoothness Full skink mode. That's what you do. We're go full skink mode. And so that's just a tribute to y'all It's gonna be a t-shirt. There's gonna be a product line. Uh, this you've created Just a horrific You know new piece of destruction. It's all is a tribute to him. I was deeply impressed by that piece I thought it was a really really amazingly well done model and it just seeing it inspired me to push myself harder in some different ways That's That's awesome. Like I don't know what better compliment I can give frankly I still think it's all a conspiracy I thought it was a great looking model. Yeah, absolutely, man. It blew me away. And so that's If I'm gonna do this, let's call it what it is Probably have skinks somewhere back there. I'm sure we probably gotta box them. But yeah All right, uh So The uh, so that's that's hobby time. Uh, well gentlemen That was fast. Look at us. Just blow for record tonight, Jeff. Boom. Let's do what I can With that Let's get into the nergal action that hot hot nergal action Really, I've got a ballgame to watch tonight. So that's part of it. I don't know what I don't know what that means NBA it's an acronym Yeah, it's a big deal in some circles. Jeff is a huge fan. He hates baseball Big on nba, right? Yeah. Yeah, sure. That's oh god. That's to luis. Yeah So that's my LinkedIn. Yeah Get out of here. Okay. Okay. I assume you guys are talking about something. These probably have words, but that's fine All right. Let's talk about nergal. Let's talk about something we can all appreciate Uh All right so Nergal here we are we're back I'm just gonna I'm just gonna start before we get into the summary I want to I want to get both of your takes on this Jeff. Let's start with you Nergal where you living on this right now? It's been out for several months How do you like it? Uh, I just I've always personally liked nergal. So instantly obviously all in I mean, I can't the book. I can't fault anything for it. I think it actually plays as a nergal army should resilient slow uh, just, you know Beating you up until one side capitulates more times and likely it's going to be the other side, but Okay, but I'm just very happy with the book. Okay. Cool. Tyler Yeah, so I Nergal the prior book that was holding the championship belt Or best designed in my mind and probably the first principle that I always think about at least for me personally A best design book is viable variety, which is another way of talking about internal balance, right? I have external balance as well, but kind of you start with internal balance This book has either taken the belt or it's sharing it with soul blight There are a few misses which I'm sure we'll talk about in terms of some of the worst goals The whole though. Yeah, it is kind of right in that sweet spot and we'll probably get into its overall win rate and a little bit that conveys that of competitive but Yeah, but a wide variety of options within the book. I mean, we have seen so many different lists come out of this book Oh, yeah, I think it's one of the best ones that they've done in 3.0, which have generally been pretty good Yeah, I mean Is this the best book released for 3.0? It's my question with a bullet right at the top of my summary and I'm gonna tell you my answer straight off. I won't wait. Yes Yes, by the way, I would put fire slayers in number two Which just like none no part of the words that I just said make any sense to me Okay, Vince should not be saying your best books are nergal and then fire slayers two armies I hate but yet they were great books And it's not like any of them have been bad. I'm just saying these that like nergal stands apart. It's amazing Uh, I I've just I've been consistently surprised by this book Multiple lists multiple paths to victory. We've been seeing good results out of a mixed set of different lists As you said, there are some units not seeing play But a large portion of the book has has shown itself to be viable. And by the way, I think there's always going to be Some units in in any book release no matter how good they aren't going to be immediately viable Even if you had like a perfectly internally balanced book The nature of the meta at that moment might just make some units not be chosen Like for example, you could have like a really cool strong anti-magic hero or something And if there's just like no potent magic floating around in the meta That's that's a pass, right? It doesn't mean that that guy isn't internally balanced correctly It just means that like in the world of that meta he has no life But year from then the meta might shift magic comes heavy suddenly that dude's a hot pick So it's not always an indictment just because you don't use a thing But there are some things that are just not worth playing Um, I think the army's tough It works as a soft gatekeeper without being oppressive and and the The best thing I can say is it actually feels like playing nergal both against it and when you are piloting it It's incredible 100% Yeah, and the the core mechanic of disease points, you know, that was one of those things that there was a lot of consternation around Folks weren't sure about it. Was it going to do enough? So on and so forth Once you actually play against it play with it you immediately I well I immediately felt it like okay Wow, yeah, and it's it could also be a challenging thing to get right You know, it's like I think one strategy when you read that book you could like all right I'm just going to lean hard into disease point generation and I'm on a mortal windspan My opponent to death, but yeah, I don't think you can Maybe if somebody's forgot how to do that I don't quite see it Like you can lean into it a little bit But I think if you lean into it too hard You're making sacrifices in other areas that you don't want to be So I think it gets you out of balance out of out of whack terms your optionality and and so on with your list building But yeah, no, it's it's extraordinary Yeah Yeah, okay. I want to talk about disease a little bit before we get into the stats Because I think disease is the best mechanic that they've written in in 3.0 and I want to explain why So we have a problem in the game right now That problem is called mortal wounds on six is to hit. Okay now that is especially problematic on range units especially range units who can stack other benefits on top of that i.e Shoot at long range ignore line of sight Also have a high rend have an extremely high accuracy Through either low to hit numbers or rerolling hits like whatever there's a low. We covered this in a previous show The problem with six to hits equal mortal wounds is that the delta between The immortal wound and a and a point of damage is too high Okay And so and and the hit roll is too Multitudinous, I guess is what I would say right to to actually properly balance. So you got you got sort of two problems You have one problem where it's actually just too effective It's about and and where you'd actually want that mathematically to sit if you go and break down the numbers Is you'd want about half of that like if we were using d12's To attack and you mortal wounded on a 12 to hit It would actually be exactly correct Okay, that's the best way I can say it But we don't we use d6's which only have six sides as you made a figured out The other problem with six is to hit is that they have a scalability challenge So what it encourages you to do is because the mortal wound is so It has such a high efficacy You're encouraged and there's no cap You're encouraged to just run the number of hits up to like a million right as close as you can get to infinite number of hits better Right So you want always just more attacks bigger units more attacks more attack bonuses just yada yada yada 60 zombies with van hells like whatever you can pick your thing Lots of melee mortal wounds to sixes aren't as impressive because they happen to be on a chassis that's That itself is unappealing. So, you know, like things that just so for example gut rip as being a good example of this like they're a slow chassis that's also Has no defense So they just die to way too easy to actually do any damage But obviously the opposite side of that is something like sentinels or, you know zombies as aforementioned or whatever Okay, so disease actually solves both the efficacy problem and the scalability problem in a single mechanic Because what's your chance of getting a mortal wound out of that six to hit? Well, it's it's a four plus base. I understand you can mess with that number But base it's a four plus so it's 50 percent Right It's exactly mathematically where it should be by the way, the other way you can solve it is you can move it to the wound Roll that still doesn't solve the scalability problem Which is what I pointed out because every time I mentioned this people are like just move it to the wound roll And then everything's magically better and I'm like no that is not it is neither That is not even close to sufficient to solve the problem one because that works okay if you hit on fours Then you get the right sort of efficacy, but you're still encouraged to scale to a million Right, but if you hit on twos or twos re-rolling ones or something then it does literally nothing Right, um, it's mathematically irrelevantly different But disease doesn't work like that disease solves the efficacy problem It also solves the scalability problem by capping at seven disease points Meaning you can't run it to a million what you ideally want is about you know, something like 25 Attacks out of a unit somewhere in that range and that'll push you up to around your seven Once you figure a factor in like spellcasting and your existence near them in movement and combat, right? So It's just an absolute brilliant brilliant Mechanic like I appreciate its mathematical elegance at being so perfect For what actually means Like what balanced means in terms of how this game operates Just from the rip So that's all well said. Yeah So there you go. I had to give my my my disease Speech there, which I think tyler's had to listen to a couple times now, but there we go. I think it was well said Uh Hey, if you like the disease mechanic hit the like button That's that's what that's what you can do if you were excited about scaven hit the like button I know I am uh subscribed do all those fun things. All right Hitting buttons is fine and helps other people find the show you too can be a hero. All right, let's do this Let's talk about stats, which these stats Are So great. I love reviewing nergal stats as I did these. These are all obviously since the release of the uh The nergal book So that's the end all these stats are courtesy of ziki warhammer rob and the t-sports stat center as always Thank you to the incredible team over there at the t-sports stats center doing amazing work Uh, so there you go Okay, what is the win rate by faction of the magikin of nergal? 50 percent boom well Delirious I'll say that's I'll take that right. That's what we want and that yeah Agreed like the perfect world would be if we somehow loaded up this list and The and everybody just said 50 right now. Obviously that's never gonna happen for lots of reasons, right but the closer we get to that kind of a grouping and the fact when uh The fact that this one is the army literally anchoring the middle point Says everything I need to know. Yeah, this is like get Thanos out here man Because this thing is just like perfectly balanced as all things should be right um so Yeah, I mean, I don't know what to say about this other than yes good excellent positive Matt war did not write this book So, you know like uh I don't know like most of time when we talk about win rate There's often like some sad news and some happy news. We have to kind of construe it, but here. I'm just like not got it Exactly where you want it to be right So, okay great fantastic. Good job nergal. You did it Uh, there was the people behind this book What's that 200 224 matches Uh from 3.0 3 covering 3.1 and 3.2. Yeah. Oh, yeah pretty good pretty good number Not too bad to 32 events nice And the only one uh bone splitters iron jaws are closer. I'm sure bone splitters have Quite yeah 32 matches a bit of a difference with bone splitters Yeah, like bone splitters in big while you can never count because they don't like they're always statistical anomalies because they just don't get enough play to like reach statistical significance so um Like one of the things I kind of wish ziggie would do and because I think he's the one on charge of the front end Is I wish that if a if an army fell under a certain threshold? He would just not show it Oh, yeah That's that's all A big wall they basically have the same number 33 matches for big wall Right. Yeah, it's everybody else will have quite a few. Yeah legion A6 for legion. Okay. Yeah, I was just curious. Yeah. No, it's good. It's right where we'd want it to be So great stuff. I mean this right here is one of the first proof points as to why Nergal is good And uh assistant ref I I completely agree with you. We will get to that when we talk about some of the units We're gonna have the unit discussion Uh meta representation again, we have 25 factions in Uh, aos so assuming that the world was like all factions were equally interesting to everybody Which isn't really the world we're gonna live in but that would mean that on average you would want to see a four percent Being your sort of middle number or your uh, your mode would be four percent in that list I suppose would be another way to look at it and um And nergal 4.3 percent Closest to the golden mean here So yet again, they find themselves Right right right in the center of the space. Love it Like I again this it's a popular army People like playing it, but it's not stormcast eternal is obviously bent Right It was very popular at adepticon adepticon had one standoff action for each alliance Uh, nergal stormcast. They may have clumped war clients together. I think they did that And then soul blight for death So yeah Yeah, let me answer cat herder real quick here. He said I still haven't had a chance to play aos at all Am I going to get cussed out at the lgs for playing seraphon if they're this dominant? No Absolutely not. I mean again, unless there's like a lot of jerks at your local game store, but no you shouldn't Seraphon is an incredibly dominant army right now There's lots of reasons behind that But seraphon also has a ton of very fun lists you can play if you bring fun lists and play like It is not automatically bent or broken. It's not automatically crushing your opponents Um, so no, there are a hundred great fun Seraphon lists that you will show up to stores and people will be like yay and very happy to get a game against so yeah, absolutely not They are tournament dominant because of how well they play Into the current meta and are good at winning tournament games especially against the other top Tier like seraphon plays extremely well into the top tier. That's the best best way I could say it They're good at beating other armies that are strong. So Okay, anyways Uh, so yeah good representation kind of right where we'd want it to see it to be So there you go. Um Tobias says I play ogres and nergal. My tastes are average. There you go. You're you You got some good representation there, buddy. You're you're in a good crowd Um, so okay Fantastic, um positive win rate potential So positive win rate potential is defined as your chance to go sort of You know have a record of three two or better at a tournament Uh, the average here for aos 3 is 49% Nergal finds itself at 52. So it's not quite the average. That's actually so blight But it's still right there in the middle still in a very healthy Good spot right where we would want it to be right Uh, so again like I just I love seeing how Well balanced this army is it's clearly giving good games Uh being slightly over 50% means you've got a good chance of having a positive win rate again That's where you'd kind of want it to average out Um, yeah, it's great That's like this is all good stuff. This is all to me just proof that this book is well written It's like that the points which a lot of people decried as being too high originally Were actually correct Right Uh, yeah on the whole definitely yeah There was a Yes, some of these books there. There was a pretty big gap in that initial reaction and reality But soul blight was the same. So yeah, it happened sometimes sure Uh, I believe then credit should be given to to our missing co-host tom Uh, who went what 3 1 in 1? Is that correct? Uh with his with his uh With his night haunt which night haunt only have a 20% chance At a positive win rate Hmm That is a bad area of the chart down there with night haunt and he knights in sylvaneth Uh, you're saying there's a chance I do love that like tom's army pick is night haunt I love slanesh and you love sylvaneth and we are like the bottom three here tyler More hammer weekly just rolling the bottom part of the chart Uh, it's pretty great. It's pretty great Okay, someone's coming someone's gonna fix everything. That's right. It's gonna turn everything around We'll see that we'll see that new night haunt book turn it around And I'm sure where it's gonna be the same for sylvaneth and and scaven in the summer I have no doubt. Okay So again, good stuff exactly where we'd want it to be I thought this one was kind of interesting Uh, because it I think you see a lot in here so This is the win rate versus the tiers Okay, so top tier middle tier low tier And the top tier are people basically Above 55 percent in their win rate the bottom tier the low tier are people who are below 45 percent in their win rate So outside the sort of statistical norms we would want to see of the fat middle of 45 to 55 win rates Uh, so against that those top tier armies Average is 40 win rate magikin at 37 Not terrible, but you can see how they are slightly below average And that reads to me Um, jeff, why do you think they have a slightly lower win rate? Like why are they towards the bottom of this chart? Not horrendously, but towards the bottom against the top tier folks I mean I can only imagine Honestly that they don't have that one Unit that a lot of these top tier books have that just they put out the damage So much that they just they're wiping units off As soon as they touch him that you know just click, you know control alt delete control alt delete control alt delete I mean, they don't have that one that can do that it it's What i've said to tyler before and i've and i've mentioned it around in our gaming community They in my opinion have like a combined arms type deal Where they they just you know the whole army as a whole needs to function properly for them to Do well and it's not just the one unit going to go out there and just smack face and be done Yeah Yeah, tyler, I I watched a all dragon list It's burned through and a pretty good in urgal army Um and a couple of rounds. I think he got the double in round two and it was just over So yeah, there are which surprised me You know like an army wide five up wards I would have expected they would have hung around a little bit longer now I think it was the beast of nergal spam list So it wasn't as heavy as it can get in terms of wound count and durability But still I was a little surprised to see that so yeah, just what jeff said I think there are some dps check armies that can get through them just in terms of the damage output Yeah, I think that that would be I think there are two basic conceptions here So shan in the chat said he thinks it's movement and maybe that plays some role Um, I'm not going to write that off. I mean movement is a pretty important part of the overall You know sort of world to live in when it comes to to aos and winning games But I think it's why they're so bad into the top tier specifically Is because a lot of the top tier has Has units that do exactly what you're talking about jeff right that do control out delete their enemies And when your thing is being tough and that toughness is calibrated very carefully Right and then there are you there are then your opponents can come in and just be like nope I've got enough damage that I can just Run slip shot right over the top of you Right that you you're tough against most armies. They'd never break you but against me You know, I'll tear through you like tissue paper, okay And I think that some of those Uh Some of those top tier armies just have The amount of damage that they can just punish nervel and cut away basically its defense and the mobility doesn't help there Right if anything it's sort of an additive Uh, uh handicap Right if they if they were if those top armies didn't have that overwhelming damage and it was just the mobility problem I think you'd see them up more closer to kind of the average where we'd expect in the middle. I could see that. Yeah, definitely agree Uh, okay versus the middle tier. They're they're actually above average, which doesn't surprise me at all So 52 percent given a 46 percent average Um, you know nergal plays well into its equals right like The other people they're hanging out in the middle tier Give a good game and nergal is probably slightly favorably positioned against them Right, but realistically with these stats, we've probably got a three percent four percent margin of error Um, given the the where the stats currently sit. So again feels very like Very where you'd want it to be right in other words, they're giving a very good 50 50 game against most of the middle tier Um, great. Yeah, it feels like an army. I mean, this is my sense I don't have data back this up, but it certainly feels like an army Let me let's take take you take emma who did really well with rob bringer. He take Tom guan has ran nergal a little bit. He's done well jack Armstrong Just got back jack got a four one or maybe it was a five. Oh, I think he finished second to darin watson At this event over the weekend a big event in uk Jack had You know eight blight lords guo For god's blowab. I think that was his list basically And so kind of point being that I think it's one of those armies. I mean like a lot armies that It's very receptive to player skill expression And that yeah, you know, it's it's gonna have that that variance It's nice to see that even with that it's kind of coming out right in the middle in terms of the overall where it's at Meaning that you know, I think there are players that can make this Certainly an a tier army, but maybe even Like it can be very powerful in the hands of skill players. Yeah, I'm pretty convinced of that Yep Okay Uh, let's take a look into the low tier where again in the low tier Like this is what tells me they're in the right space in the low tier. They average is 56% They're 58% basically dead middle of chart right where you'd kind of want them to be so even again Sort of the lower armies. They still give a good game They can't overwhelm those lower armies and just kill them out because of the damage You know situation that we talked about earlier something like storm cast or daughters or eidneth can who are all up at the top of this chart with a bullet um, and uh So yeah, I mean it's again There to me what's actually holding them back right now is just the overwhelming power of the top tier Right and if we see more armies in the middle tier come up in there that's also giving them a good game I think you'll just continue to see them remain pretty pretty stable in the middle ground They feel like they're they're they're well positioned for the the continued evolution of the meta so Cool. Oh, sorry. All right last one. Let's talk about units I want I want to I want to tarry on this slide for a moment unit representation within faction So plague bearers showing up in a full third of the lists and then you've got Guo sly about slobby beasts blight kings lord of afflictions plague drones coming in at 5.2 percent. Yeah The scrivener the glot king. Sorry the glotkin I guess he is kind of the glot king now um, Festus the leech lord blowab rodigus verticulus harbinger and rob ranger sorcerer um Good list like a good list of a lot of different units Uh, I I actually like seeing their main battle line Show up that much It being the hot pick feels pretty good Like it always feels good when You When your main battle line troop is actually useful Sure, it's just a good feeling with an army uh Right. I agree there Yeah, like hey, this is the because it's kind of the the I don't remember what the name of the thing is magic has Like iconics and and which are the like the the standout Solo people and then the the ones that are meant to represent every like kind of the general Nature of it like dragons or reds iconic and then goblins or reds like whatever the word is um Like standardized creature, you know the sort of templatized creature and plaguebearers are sort of that for for nervel right They they they show up in all the art. They are the thing It's great when your main battle line isn't a tax when it's like no no this is useful I want to use this thing. That's fantastic But it's not essential at the same time. They're not in 100% lists or 80% lists or 60% lists or something crazy like that They're just good at their role wonderful Like that's great Jeff, what's your take on plaguebearers? I mean I don't I'm more likely to summon them in my list because I like my Elite infantry like the blight lords the blight kings. That's normally my go-to of those units because I mean they They can hit hard. They can take hits I mean I mean by hit hard. I mean like I'll plinky to death Not like as we were talking about the dps. They can't put that out there But I mean like I said plaguebearers I'll summon in when I get the points for it and they'll just be there too Oh, hey, you know the plaguebearer is going to go this way to take care of this going to go do this And people are like, oh wait, that's 20 wounds that are five plus five plus So Yeah, I was actually surprised Not to see the puscoiled blight lords on yeah, that was gonna be my yeah, that is shocking And I actually do see them show up in quite a few lists So I think maybe it's just like they they've been coming up more recently Uh in a lot of lists. So um My my feeling is they if we if we ran this like two or three months from now They would they would be a meaningful percentage and would show up I feel like other than like well, I don't really see plaguebearers span that often You know, it's like a unit of 20 and a unit of 10 or three units of 10 or two units of 10 But blight lords you're definitely starting to see them come on the scene as you just said and Yeah, like my feeling on the book right now is I mean just in terms of pure bang for buck They might have the belt. They might be top the list for me in this book right now Wait, I think that would be an interesting discussion to get into with some of these different units But also I actually rate norgalings quite high as well as I played against them Heard other people talking about their experience with them both both for summoning and maybe you know thrown into a list as well But yeah, I feel yeah, thank you. Oh, there you go. Uh Characteristic unit by the way is what they're called. Thank you dough screen. Um, so at any rate, uh the Yeah, let's talk about the things that aren't on here. We mentioned puscoils. You mentioned nurglings. I I agree. I think nurglings Uh Are I I underrated them admittedly. This is something I was wrong about I didn't buy the nurglings were worth anything In the original show. I just I didn't buy it Uh, and yet I've been consistently impressed by those little idiots Uh, and every time I played against them were with them since Uh, so I I think that that was definitely a wrong call on my part I I think nurglings are another one that's like not here, but is highly valid Events like my first experience was five liberators versus three nurglings, right? That's about as basic as it gets Yeah, there is no way the liberators win that fight No, not even close like So that was like, okay, so these Uh insert naughty word, uh, they are Yeah, punching above their weight class for their point value. Yeah, sure And I've found that to be consistently true and what they can do They just they have so many different uses in a game. I mean, they're a perfect johnny unit Uh, and just the options that they bring on the table. I love them from a summoning standpoint You know, they're seven points the cheapest. I didn't think it's like it's nurglings It's sloppity at eight It's uh, maybe be some nurgle at like what 10? And if you like you said if you really want to go plague bears Yeah, you get up to 14, but a lot of times I've seen it. It's nurglings and sloppity But yeah, no, they're they're they're quite incredible It's normally because I forget to summon stuff. So that's really on me I mean literally I'm just so engrossed in the game that I literally forget my summoning pool and I'm like, oh wait Crap I get to do that Is there anything else uh, jeff for you that's not on this list that didn't show up? I mean I'm pretty exhausted. Is there anything else that's not here? You were surprised honestly, and this is probably my place though gut rot I mean I So it's always nice just like the little afflictions can do but I mean it does have to be a table edge, but at the same time I it's just nice. Oh, hey, it's in your backfield. Oh, hey, it's also a unit of blight kings Or I could bring the glock in which I've seen And it's just absolutely terrifying to see something like that or even blub because he's mortal. So Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean It's in my opinion. Just like nirgling's an underrated unit I mean, I'll tell you what I'm surprised isn't here. Oh, yeah, go ahead. I think you were going the same place I was but go ahead tyler Yeah, well bluab is there, but the fact that he's at 2.3 percent is pretty astounding. I mean that guy Almost feels like an auto include to me he's Just utterly filthy what what he can't I mean? Oh god, that was a pun crap Yeah, anyway, blow up. Yeah, I feel like he should be a lot higher I was surprised not to see or guts on the list. Who's another one that I think absolutely has play um, I think or guts is is uh an interesting, uh Hammer one of the few like probably actual hammers In the army, I think he's tough enough to to stick in most of the time Being on sort of a because he has basically a stone horn profile right three up five up And he can actually deal out some some decent damage So, you know, I think he feels a really interesting role and I was surprised he didn't he didn't show you He's another one that I think I've seen in many lists and I would be Like in in my mind in the future you the harbinger decay just falls off this list and or guts comes up And the pluscule light lords come up onto the list. That's what I think so We'll say I'm happy the maggot or the maggot lords actually finally got there just do Yeah, the amount of amount of hit power they can actually put out now finally. It's yeah, I mean otherwise 2.0 book you guys saw that and just how pitiful it was to see the maggot lords just not be What they were supposed to be in my opinion with the lore and everything so Yeah, that's uh, oh, okay. I just I just bought a festus. I'm like festus has got to be on this list He's a great piece to run with maggot lords And yeah, he's another standout to me You can potentially do 3d3 heels with this guy. Keep within an inch of a maggot lords. Let's say Do up cool in your hero phase d3 heel Gives off the locus of fecundity All right, I was I was building the list for fun today. Like what would a Competitive but fun nerdy list to me personally look like and it was starting with three all three maggot lords Festus, maybe maybe not the lord of afflictions. I had him in there two by ten plague bears Two blight lords and three plague drones, which I actually yeah, that's the one unit that I've been coming around on a lot more than Initially, you were high on them. I was a little low on them in our review show Uh, I think they're intriguing including with blades of future faction I've seen one game where you do blades future faction. I'm jumping around here But you do that on plague drones and that opens up space to where with their number of attacks You can stack dp disease points on two different units In terms of the five ups going off. So I thought okay, that's that's fascinating. Anyway, yeah maggot lords in a great position Yeah, I'm I'm repping plague drones hard. I still stand behind him. I know tom is all anti plague drone. I think he's wrong Um, I think a lot of people I've seen They're just the you see them pop up in lists often as a one unit. I don't think they're a stack I don't think they're a skew. I think they're a single unit pick and I think they excel at their particular role Which is often just like disease scattering and being a sort of like they will that you can like retreat them out Who cares it's fine. They did their disease. They can sort of drop and pop and run If they stick around you can you know, they're a great if you're down to one and he runs away They they become a fascinating rally target um, so yeah, I mean I I really like I really like this list and I mean look let's talk about While we're here on units What are the misses in this book? Okay, what are the units that we don't think are going to see any play? I'm going to give you guys a second to think about that while I answer Uh, allen's or no, who had the question. Sorry somebody do do do do our torus Who said is this incarnation of magikin mostly a timmy johnny or spike army? This is absolutely a timmy army with a johnny with a strong johnny secondary It's timmy because it feels very much like what you're doing like it's if you You know you want to play I am the tough guy. I want to be tough and give spread my disease around like it's so in theme. It's so very Uh, based on experiencing something which is what timmy wants if you want to experience nergal It's that but it has a very strong johnny element running through it Uh, because it also relies on smart play On comboing your units and using them. Well on making sure you get into the right fights and match ups as you can Um, if spit that that johnny amount shoots through the roof, by the way, if you run something like Uh, uh, bring robbringer The glockin or the robbringer coven or or uh, or the glockin right both of whom are like major johnny tech pieces Um, yeah, I'm unreal the the skill expression you can do with the glockin like just fascinating piece Yeah Okay, so now what units in this book were A miss do you not think we'll ever see on this list and probably rightfully so in their current incarnation jeff? Have you got a pick harbinger for sure the harbinger of decay easily? Yeah. Yeah, i'm surprised. He's here now Right, honestly I in my opinion they missed the chance to make him a priest and they'd been so nice to see a priest in the army that's you know, not a scaven ally in but You had a chance to make Yeah, it's just in my opinion a miss there Uh, i'm kind of glad I'd like to see that guy just retired is my honest Make a new model because of the scope. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah um Okay, tyler you got a pick Yeah, I need you my phone by me. I realized I hadn't got the book yet. So I had to pronounce some more schools let's see rodigus is like If he were cheaper It would be a good start Actually see him on the table Of it you compare him to guo with everything that you can do with the great inclement right now And I don't even find it particularly close between the two of them They made the classic mistake that they've often made over the years You know with the unique character have it be similar or in some cases higher And it's often a mess compared to the basic version. So yeah, but but with but let's let's make a separation here Because I think that's critical what you just said rodigus as a scroll Isn't a miss he could have a role and in fact like he does show up sometimes in list Let's not be like as you can see here. He's he makes this list but He definitely has a points challenge right now But if he were to be adjusted in points, he could be a very valid choice, right like he's He it's not his scroll is beyond like I you don't look at it and go. I don't know what this will ever do No, definitely not. Yeah Scrolls pretty good Okay, cool. I'm with that Um, I all right. So my picks are going to be Kind of like I'm gonna I'm gonna two for here Okay, which is the lord of blights and the lord of plagues Like the two foot heroes One of them is slightly better than the other but Both of them just kind of have no actual purpose within the army They're you know traditional foot combat heroes that Don't bring enough utility. Yes. They have the chain sort of activation But so what like okay? I can also fight with my useless combat foot hero Um Yay Like they're not buffing the other people enough like the throwing heads To like the black king throwing a head isn't doing enough So on and so forth like it's it's a cute trick And yes, you can sometimes get like a disease point out of it, but it's all right cool I could have gotten more disease points out of whatever else I was going to put that 100 plus points into So both of those guys are kind of a miss for me Yeah, there's so many other valid heroes. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Go ahead. No, I was just gonna I didn't mean to interrupt it was that was actually my two and three I was going to say there was actually three It was going to be the harbinger lord of blights and the lord of plagues We're going to be just you have to literally build a list around that and it's not worth it Right, so what do you guys what do you guys think we need? You know, it's like the the thing first all that I have with these is that we need an ability A meaningful ability on these things to actually run them to play them. Yeah, I mean, they yes They Here's a bold statement. I'll make Okay My bold statement is the following and tell me if this checks out in your mind There are no units Non hero units. Sorry. That's what I mean like troops. I don't know non hero units That are a miss in this army. They all have some role Okay I agree Uh, I think that checks out. Yeah, the only misses are in the fact that like a lot of chaos They just have too many heroes Mm-hmm that they end up stomping like stepping on each other's feet, right? But yes, you're right Uh The the answer here is pretty straightforward. It's they should offer some kind of Utility they should do something Right like rather than nothing Like you can have foot combat heroes That are valid in lists That does exist Um, but it has to be a pretty rarified piece in how it works the overall army Like sigval the magnificence Is a is a good example of that, right? He's he has no utility for anybody else He doesn't care about any other unit in that army like quite literally He has nothing to offer anybody else because he doesn't need to right he's He is there as a solo tech combat piece. He's a six wound hero and he does it He gets there Right. So that that thing can exist, but that's the kind of level you've got him hit And I mean either these guys are at that level. They're just they're just derpy You know regular, you know unnamed foot heroes Right. I don't agree. So like if they're going to exist, they should do literally anything Instead of you know, nothing Yeah, we've talked a lot about that a lot of the years man where yeah, there's been A lot of misses when it comes to those nine wounds or less Combat heroes the lack thereof of those viable nine wounds or less combat heroes And this book definitely expresses that as well. You've got it in the maga floors. You've got it in the guo You don't I guess the lord of afflictions is your best example Probably in this book right now in terms of nine wounds or less The lord of afflictions is great right because he does something He does a lot of something actually like he's fairly mobile. He's quite tough He can bring other Buzz people but you know fly buzz people up into the sky with him into reserve He like that is utility One of the best command traits in the entire game with whatever powering stench where it turns off Command abilities, right? Yeah Charge him first into a unit that's got you know, something that's got overwatch. Oh wait. You can't do that. What? right So like, you know, that's that is literally useful, right? so It's just a great example of like how to design something well that has a valid role Probably in multiple ways by the way because it's interesting because he can be like a good power pair Peace who works with some people or he can be kind of an independent actor depending on how you kid him And that's that's that's great Like that's what you like not only is he a hero with one valid role He's a hero with multiple valid roles, which is again better than these other heroes who have zero But there's not that many misses. I think really it's probably those those three would be my chief call outs on like the scroll itself is Unsalvageable effectively I'd say the unless you got a lot of plague barriers, which again, I haven't seen that a whole lot personally not too keen on it as a Competitive army if you're trying to go five or whatever you're gonna talk basic poxpringer poxpringer. Yeah. Yeah, I don't I don't see him doing enough So the only reason I hesitate on the poxpringer I thought about that too But the only reason I hesitate on the poxpringer Is because he is a relatively cheap demon spellcaster Oh, sure. Uh-huh So if you're just needing a demon to carry a magic item around Obviously, you would just bring like sloppity or the scrivener or something like that, right? Because then they're a demon who can who can carry around a magic item Or fleshy abundance without a guo in your lesson Exactly, but if you're trying to like just roll for the fleshy abundance Right on the demon units. He is sort of the cheapest vector at that thing He's not likely to cast it. Obviously. You're just you're you're rolling for you know, you're you're playing slot machine Okay, but look That's what ogres have been doing for years and you know, it's an okay strategy Just like playing the slot machines, right? Oh for the best Right, you just kind of roll and hope for the best You know like hey, it's it's nice. It can happen. It's not impossible or something So I like I that was the only thing that kept him out of that for me is that he is cheap access to a demon spellcaster Which means he's not completely worthless though. I do think he is over pointed by a pretty Like by a pretty big chunk right now Like he's like I'm curious what what is your too big of a chunk He's probably 20 25 points over pointed right now. I can see that Yeah Like he should be down at the slobby Scrivener level he's he's he's on the level with them. Like I'm I'm trading away the utility of having a cool auto toot toot buff To for the chance to cast spells which are not a guaranteed buff So like he should definitely be down in that place. It just makes sense I don't I don't know why he's so much more expensive than his non spellcasting brethren Because they're all basically the same hero just with that that shift of abilities so um But that's just it like again, he's not beyond salvation to me He falls more in the rodigus camp where it's like. Oh if we actually just Tilted his points down to where they should be He could be valid Right. He could have some use like I I'd spend like you tell me he's 115 or 120 points or something like that 125 maybe even yeah, I could see lists where you bring him in is like the slot machine Let's go for fleshy abundance and and hey if I hit it you ain't ever getting through this unit like good luck Oh, I'm true. Yeah Last one and maybe it's also a points issue is the robbering or sorcerer outside of the coven Obviously coven I mean that's I think a challenging list to make work and I found a way to make it work It was again incredible Listening to her talk through all the details that she went into in that hour and a half whatever it was with coach Very cool conversation outside of that I have a hard time seeing this piece make many lists But what do you think jeff about the robbering or have you been definitely agreed outside coven? As you said an emma apparently pilot not apparently she did pilot it very well Um, just I I used to run him in 2.0 Just for his spell and he was cheap And now in my opinion, there's other as you mentioned earlier tyler viable options that are just better to take Cost effective type deal. So yeah I mean to me it doesn't like I wouldn't put it on the bad list just because coven exists Like I understand coven is a technically a different unit, but it's three of these people And so like you can't have the three of them without the one of them, right? And like I think coven does have play in a couple of very johnny tilted lists And so because of that's like, well, okay the the I I agree with both of your interpretations that the one Is underwhelming, but okay like all right it's fine Still planning a home. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Like you can still use the unit Like it's you know, if you've got like a lord of of plagues or blights or whatever You're like, oh, okay. Well I don't know what i'm doing with this model He's a special blight king. He's my blight king champion or something like that's what he ends up being, right? Um So at any rate, yeah, there you go. Okay, cool Anything else? I'm sorry, vince. No, go ahead. Go ahead. Please. I mean, he's just I don't know why it I ever take a single wrap bringer versus just taking festus instead I agree with that. Sure Sure Yeah, that's fair. That's a very fair comparison. Absolutely Anything else we want to say on units before we before we leave this behind? I mean overall, that's by the way, that's like strong It's a good It's pretty good. The fact that so much of this has play in different lists I think that that speaks to the again the strength of the the internal balance of the look I'd be curious to have a little bit of conversation about comparing it again And if we're just looking at sort of bang for buck high impact Do some versus, you know, let's blight kings versus blight lord Let's say I know you're a big fan of blight kings, jeff. I don't know. Maybe this is a little unfair It's kind of challenging to do this in a bubble because it is somewhat list dependent, you know depends on what your list makeup is So maybe a better one trying to think of one that might be beast of nergal and blight lords I think that's literally the same point cost to be some nergal versus a unit of two blight lords. Let's go with that so Which way do you guys You guys think what they're about the same they have different roles personally, I'm gonna I tend to think blight lords As an upper hand on beast of nergal I was certainly higher on beast of nergal than you were vince when the anti beast of nergal. Yes, you are anti beast of nergal You know I think they have roles. I've played against them I played against spam lists. I played against a couple in a list They're good. They're solid. I like what they're doing The charging the mobility the mortal wounds They might not do enough disease point generation for some folks But facing blight lords, I do feel like for me, they have a little bit of an upper vantage Just in terms of pure efficiency between those two units Jeff you got a sense of these two? Yeah, and I agree with you on that. I think the blight lords have a better um I guess you could even say just a better Word escapes me. I guess it's not stability, but uh Just I guess staying power you could even say even because they they can put out quite a few disease points more so than I think The beast of nergal can but I beast of nergal have their own little In my opinion little niche that they they fill in quite nicely as again As I said earlier a combined arms type deal Where they fill in that hole That you know a blight lord may miss on Yeah, I I mean For me, I definitely come down on the blight lord side. I mean that's just it's easy I like them better the the you know flying There I love the the General durability versatility of the thing the fact that they can be taken up into the sky with the lord of afflictions Uh, there's just a lot of benefits. I see to the blight lords As as a unit and their their ability to interact with the all the different elements of the game I don't think that I think I was too hard on beast of nergal Okay I do think that people have proven repeatedly That they can do work and can be a viable and valid part of lists But if you ask me, I I'm I'm still coming down On the side of the of the blight lords 100% uh Yeah, that's the way to lose and so even even from like a spam standpoint, you know, again if I wanted to try to Optimize winning games at a gt to me It's take it it probably look very similar to jack's list But maybe throw some plague bears for bodies Of some combination of like blowout and maybe orgots probably a guo Yeah, it's I think blight lords are just so incredible right now um Yeah, the other one I was curious to hear a little bit more on the blikings I mean, I or maybe we can wait on that now. There's a list coming up. That's got a lot of blikings But yeah, let's talk about him in some let's talk about it as part of the list because I want I want to seat those in a place Uh, I want to shout out smorgan ages sigmar list lab who says I missed the news and rumors me to chime in squeak Yes, yes, and then rat ninjas. Absolutely. You you missed that the grand celebration as we said smorgan We can shut down warhammer now. We hit it. We hit the top of the mountain Uh, and then leo said why isn't early on the list? It's a good question We don't know because not enough people played him yet, but again, this is for everything since 3.1 My guess is over time. You're gonna see that drift toward them showing up on this list, so Um, because I do think they have a lot of play Okay, let's get in speaking of lists. Let's get into some lists. So jeff Uh, you're gonna take us through these are uh Mostly your lists Um, so you're gonna take us through the first three of your lists here So this first one is magikin of nergal and blessed sons Uh, you've got a guo. You've got blowab. You've got gut rot and then we have four by five Putrid blikings You are a lot of drops like many drops and then you've got them in hunters and A little bit of vanguard there for the other the other unit. So Rockin 119 wounds Obviously, those are very high value or high um High What do I want to say? Thank you. Yes elite. Perfect word. Those are elite wounds. And yes, leo. Hi I can see you in your house right now. I can see you. You didn't know this was two way All right, uh at any rate jeff take us through this list So Obviously gut rot goes off where the which is one unit of blikings because I normally have two bliking units either protect blob or protect the grid and clean one not that the grid and clean one needs protecting But I can use that to pin a unit and then he can come around do his thing at very So to me nergal doesn't have to go first Much preferably I want an enemy army to come towards me. So I'm not wasting my first turn to Run or move up into position Where more times than not everybody's got what double r movement at least More times than that or at least six inch movement. We're stuck at four for most of it, but how it's It's a slow moving army, but at the same time I think it can it can take punishment and then once I get there I can hold objectives Uh or it again, I will switch sometimes and put a second unit of blikings with blob and use his seven inch aura To I'll just steadily move forward with those three And you know go towards an objective because let's face it two units of blikings and blob can It actually has because I played in a tournament against my buddy laran He had dragons and fulminators. Well, it was dragons and fulminators versus two units of blikings and a and blob and I took both of those units out With those three then again, I mean points wise I think it comes out in my favor because blikings were 250 and blobs 300 so but I mean Taking the objective was was key especially in those low objective games This army I think has done quite well okay All right, so so let's talk about blikings and why you like him and I also want to ask you a question 10 blikings In a unit Okay, do you ever like 10 blikings in a unit? No Okay, why or why not 40 40 millimeter bases and I mean, yeah, you can finagle it, but I am I don't have the patience to try to do that And I just think 10 is a waste where you could spend the same amount of points And yes an extra wound whoop dee do but it's still an extra ruin And you can be in two places at once and not just have a whole unit of 10 And it's not that prime of a target so like a shooting attack Of Six of the raptors or whatnot They're going to shoot at 10 and they're going to use the holy command to wipe out that one unit 10 where I'm not even just the holy command But just the all the shooting that they've got or even sentinels for that matter They can they'll shoot at the one unit where if you get two separate units You got to make a choice Do you want to wipe out that unit? You know this unit or do you want to split fire and you may not even wipe out either one Okay, I mean mathematically neither of those units delete the 10 blikings on average So that was it let's me it will Sure The reason I think 10 is an interesting thing sometimes and admittedly this is from an outsider perspective Is that I think that unit is almost immune to shooting Okay Because it Like you're suicidal if you shoot into them, you know, you can't kill them And then they can just keep rallying back Um, like it's it's very interesting that that the unit Will just keep coming back over and over and over again like the amount of pain You have to put into that because it's effectively 41 wounds. Yeah, it's 41 or sorry. Effectively it is 41 wounds effectively 62 Right With the ward And all on frames that are like pretty decently likely to stick around Because those you know, there is still a base four up on there as well if we're not talking about things that just bypass uh, so it's Like I I I agree with you the limitation of not being in two places may be extremely significant I mean, we're talking about a 500 point unit here, right? Like let's not kid ourselves a fourth of your list Right. Yeah, exactly. Like that is four real z's the amount of points you put in here But I just think it's interesting to have I I don't think anybody's going to shoot at it It's ultimately what it comes down to because I think they know They're just not going to be able to kill it and then you'll just spend every hero phase rallying them back Um, because why not? And just like I oh you killed me down to five now. I've got seven. I'm back at eight. It's like, okay Well, great. What am I doing here? Right? Because the shooting lists right now Tend to need to remove threats when they shoot like they can't survive Shooting at something and not killing it Which is where they've mostly lived Right is that almost anything they point out they just do delete But I think it's interesting that they don't but I I love like I'm still a big fan of blikings I believe in these guys. I think by the way this list is going to get real real interesting If we shift toward hashtag horde meta in the summer Okay, I mean these are the yeah the perfect chaff battle line board killers. Oh, absolutely, right imagine the world. We're like, okay You know, we've got night haunt And they are encouraged to be an msu lots of lots of units everywhere small units low wound units We got doc coming out at the same time Let's assume that the pendulum swings as it constantly does and now this time witches and sisters are good I mean look at the model that we got the the gladiatorix like minus three rend as an option right now folks Yeah, drake drake you can ask witch elves or sisters. Yeah, right uh and so the um So then that Happens right so then okay now you got another horde army now. Let's assume in the summer We have skaven and silvaneth assume. We're right Silvaneth, you know could be a lot of bodies could not depends on what happens I don't know like you could see a world where like Uh spite revs are a thing again or dryads are a thing or something like that It could also go a more elite book. So who knows could break either direction But skaven are certainly going to have a horde presence right almost almost certainly that would be the idea You got three new books entering the meta if the if the ghp also incentivizes hordes Man is this thing going to be great because black kings just destroy Low wound units They're just death So in that case, I certainly like your fives because you want to be maximizing those attacks, right? Yep. Yeah Oh, what do you think that's I think that's kind of less struggles against jeff Uh, so again those those armies that have the heavy hitters I mean they'll they'll hit one of the units and more than likely again control. I'll delete. They're gone. I can't stop it um I know I when I okay, so I have played this list against my buddy luke and Flesh eater courts and for someone godly reason that man rolls so many sixes when he jaws. It's ridiculous, man He did a great unclean one deleted. I was like, what how? How did you do that? He's like, oh, it's just dice. What do you mean just dice you? Okay, 17% chance on a dice But yeah, I mean even Again, it has to be I hate to keep going back to it combined arms. You have to run These at least the way I've run this list is you have to run them Two three units in a group Where they can't if they do send something to hit that you still have multiple ways to get to them and hit them back uh Yeah, the first thing I would worry about is the lack, you know, really having screens, of course and this list screens Who needs screens? Real players just throw it out there and let's just duke it out That's that's been pretty common in 3.0 Yeah, it seems like screens come by the wayside with a lot of list But uh, yes, that certainly stands out. You're also pretty high drop. I mean you didn't mention I mean it does seem like oftentimes nor would love to just all right You go I'm just gonna hang out and I'll go bottom one and then maybe I'll play for the double Or I'll just give up the round two and I'll play for round three. I'll play for the money rounds in aos And but yes, you're not really doing that with seven drops with this list You'd have to make a few changes, of course to get to a battle reg as right now, I think what battle reg is two Uh Guys with nine wounds or less. Yeah, and it is one. Yeah leader of ten wounds So yeah, you'd have to get another nine wound or less leader in the list to do about a reg And then you'd be a two drop, which is pretty good. Yeah But yeah, it's interesting. I love obviously blowout. What about here's has been a debate the what bile sword the sword versus the bell Why are you leaning sword or have you thought much about the bell? It's just I haven't tried the bell honestly and to be completely honest. I haven't it's it's more If I can do four damage, I want to do four damage. Yeah, I mean, I think this is just the offensive kit, right? I mean, that's the idea like this is the pure offensive kit And if you're and and he needs to be a kind of you know, additional hammer threat in this list Especially because he's floating around the wither staff So he wants to be up there in the mix keeping people in range Maximizing the value of those disease points, which which if he can I mean given the size of his base He's broadcasting quite an aura there and when you put so much of the enemy army under three ups for become disease like oh boy It uh, it makes a difference It has surprised people before they're like what and I'm like, yeah, so It's it's stuff just slowly withers away as you would think it would do with nergal because of disease. So Right remind me bless sons. I know it's the blackings one the the the uh, the soft explode Not like uh, what uh, yeah, they have Stormcasts have so it's a six plus and then at the roll. Yeah, right They have the bad version of the storm cast bad That's really saying something. Okay. Yeah, I regular remembered it was not that great then. Okay fair enough All right, very nice. Let's go to the next list Uh, boom So I saw some people talking about liking pusscoil blightlords. Well, guess what here we are So don't worry. We've got the pusscoil blightlords if you like pusscoil blightlords as well Um, real quick here. Leo said, uh, you know, I have all these blight kings Do you think nergal will have a battle force later this year? If they do it'll be in like october november like probably late november leo Um, I think they're a prime candidate to get a battle force this year This is exactly the type of army they love doing battle force boxes for but you're talking about waiting seven months So just to warn you by like, I don't know. I mean who knows only only gw knows um, but He probably leo you probably know about the vanguard box. It's amazing if you don't check that out Yeah, like their their vanguard box is already fantastic. Okay. Yeah, so All right, this list. Here we go. Now we're in drowned men Uh, we got a guo again Same same kid out as before but now we've got the lord of afflictions gut rod again Three by two pusscoil blightlords still five putrid blight kings Three nerglings three nerglings again high drops of nine drops In a mixed warlord slash hunters of the heartlands with the bonus artifact for the uh for the shield of growths on the lord Okay, so take us through this one and why you like this one So the uh lord of afflictions obviously for the blightlords I can I can strike multiple places and then same thing with gut rod with the unit of blight kings The deep striking or not deep striking, but I guess the hidden infestation for the nerglings As tyler said it just it throws people off. So you're already in their deployment zone You're already just outside the deployment zone. Are you gonna are you gonna want to engage that and then by that time The uh blightlords are right there And and the great unclean one obviously is still always a good threat I have contemplated and actually I probably would I would not make the uh great unclean one the general So I would give uh the lord of afflictions overpowering stench, but Yeah, I mean you could deploy with this list such that the only unit on the board is the guo right Like he is just it's just one he's Down here He's the one unit on the board everything else is is is in reserve effectively. Yep I know when I've mentioned that to people they're like you can do yes. Yes, we can sure And it I would imagine it it would be like where are they coming from type deal because I mean the entire army could be Not not the entire army, but actually a good portion of it can be in different places at once So sure a rapid rapid assault force type deal Yeah, which can help with Be one of the Armies that they can struggle with I've heard some of this comment on this Stuart iron guttsman in his yedda amazing video. I think one of your guest vents For getting the fellow's name who did the slaves of darkness show he mentioned stewards break down of nergal Excellent show. He talked about this, you know, he's had some challenges with character and overlords because of the mobility and the ability to put damage Focus damage in particular part of the board and then pick up everything and relocate So yeah with this though drowned man, it gives you that pregame move, right? It's a before the first battle around starts a whatever your movement is on the blightlords Eight inches eight inches. Yeah, correct. Cool. So you push out your bubbles in terms of yeah Pushing out the shooting threats But then also yeah, you can counter deploy With with everything dropping in so that's that's quite interesting. I think It's like drowned man is maybe the most drowned man and be felling host Too most popular right now that we're seeing some faction wise Yeah, I didn't that that is a stat within the stat center by the way I didn't pull it but but yes that if people want to know you can just hit the stat center link And and that that does say there So like That it I agree with you. It's it's definitely a strong pick I don't know if it's actually the most popular but it's certainly I think One of the the ones that has a lot of game given its ability to To to really play with the board control in an army that often struggles in the movement phase, right? All right, what's the shield of growth artifact doing? So Once the lord of affliction does start taking wounds So like he's got one or two or three wounds on him When you roll the save if you roll that one two or three because he's got that amount of wounds on you You get to re roll the save. So he's got a three plus save to begin with I mean You More times than that go to a four. Maybe a five because not everything has run to Yeah, I mean so four plus And then re rolling ones twos and threes If he's got those wounds on him, that's fine by me You have to hit him with mortal wounds to potentially bring him down pretty easily anyway I remember we had this debate vents. Yeah about the struggle of growth versus a split horn helm And it seems like the the internet's decided, you know, our community has decided The four up ward is the way to go so it's interesting Jeff. He thought that yeah this You're leaning over you're leaning this over the four up ward with the helm Yeah, that all day five plus no problem four plus fail Don't ask me why don't ask me why it's just my dad just like two plus saves two plus saves feel them all day five plus No problem Fair enough Yeah, it is an interesting artifact and yeah, we did talk about it a lot and I think it's It's fascinating because if you're willing to let him run a little hot It does make him just incredibly durable against Non-mortal wounds attacks like ridiculously durable Definitely thank you. That's for sure. Yeah, I mean if he's got like three wounds on which still he does a healthy amount of wounds left Like that's pretty that's pretty handleable number by him um The fact that you're now re rolling all ones twos and threes to save is like that's not There's nothing to scoff at right so even under like rend one with no with no save buffs of any kind He's effectively four up complete re rolling and you know re rolling saves turns out pretty good Yep, pretty strong pretty strong. So Mentioned I mean just for reference the nergling of the station. Yeah, so the nerglings they pop out of terrain Uh, that's they set up off boards and then they pop out of terrain Is there a limit jeff on does that have to be like holy? That has to be holy within the enemy's territory, right? Terrain holy within the enemy's territory or maybe not let me take a little seat here Yeah, just cuz uh I've got the book Yeah, I couldn't remember if there was a limitation for that because I'm sure Yeah against some armies it could be some challenge and actually it's just fully outside of your territory Oh, yeah outside your territory. Okay, cool. Yes. Yeah, holy Okay, nice So yeah, that's pretty solid pretty solid. Yeah, especially on a lot of restricted your territory maps You've actually got quite a lot of room around the board to be playing with those guys And again, that's like often that lets them just instagram objectives all over the board Right and and establish that additional board presence Yep Which is what I swung around to on them after watching them actually in play And their ability to sort of just you know claim those midfields And again in a list like this in drownmen where you can also be pregame moving your blightlords Like it's just a great combination of abilities those two things working in tandem Yeah, I've seen sloppity with nerglings, you know, we're sloppity. I mean he can go with one of two directions, right? He can give the what mortals on sixes to wounds. I believe or yeah, or he can fart on you and Shouldn't be related to the pile in. Yeah, so that that minimizes the damage that's coming the nerglings way Um, so, you know, that's a great little combo. You could have three nerglings popping out potentially summon A sloppity play sim right there where you need them. Yeah, just This this unit's pretty pretty, you know, they can be hitting on force to hit with a I think five attacks each So 15 attacks really good for dp generation giving the six to wounds. They're doing mortal wounds on top Like yeah, these things can get a lot of work and then they heal at the end of the battle shock phase Yeah, they just they just go back up to full wounds. Yep. Yeah, you gotta kill them gotta kill them right out Or we'll just keep growing back. Yeah uh, so I loved morbid x and we we had that conversation, you know or or gods versus morbid x I do Emma mentioned this as well in her talk with coach Does seem like a mistrick if Making nerglings battle line if you have morbid x as your general Because a lot of times that's going to be real cost, you know, because you're he's not taking an artifact He's not taking command. Yeah, but I think that you've just got really good command traits and artifacts on this list Not that he necessarily needs to carry one, but you do have good command traits as well in these in his army It definitely seems like you should have the lord of afflictions as a general the jeff and this list. Yeah, and then The more I thought about it. I was like, yeah, I would I would definitely do that. Yeah stream of corruption. What's that do the spell? that's the seven inches five for every model within seven inches on a five plus it does mortal wounds or I could Amplify it within 14 inches for every and then it's every six Okay, interesting For those uh, you just you know that have 10 models Have you played with gift of disease yet? Just the base spell have you been playing around with gift of disease? I have not no Okay, I am gonna say When we first reviewed it. I was pretty underwhelmed by gift of disease Obviously, it's both a spell as well as the thing you can give through the through the little there their little specials Arcane tome if you will right and I have come around so hard on gift of disease as being amazingly good Like that spell has straight up blown me away every time because You just sit there and bomb the thing. It has like a real good range and oftentimes what it means is you get one disease point running On they're just their whole army Like just their whole army because people love a tight castle in the current world It's just like you hit that unit and everybody within seven inches and it's just like well You get a disease and you get a disease and you get a disease and all the non hero units. That's just there Right most armies don't have access to healing for non heroes So that's never going away Right and now you're taking roles at those units and just chip damaging them for the rest of the game Now by the way, that's just like at the early part. Of course, you can just keep doing it Right and you just keep pushing everybody's disease up just more points get thrown on And it's just easier ways to push a big section of their army up to that seven So I've just been incredibly impressed by the spell because of its combination of like range and and efficacy at just Getting everybody under disease Let's just start because you want to start that game as early as possible Right and we want to start the fuck the the fun role Of just like let's get this slot machine going who's got the four ups who's got the four ups You got it. You got it. You got it, right? And it just lets you do that very early on so Anyways, it's worth it. It's worth it. Give it a try. See if you like it Everyone in range it's on a six So that's better than a lot of these spells when you're not getting any buffs for the most part A lot of these spells are seven. So that's good. And then yeah the seven inch Well, you just got to be able to see that one target that you're picking. Yeah, amazing Thank you There you go Night kids, um, I don't have anywhere where the lists are but I can ask Jeff to maybe share them on his socials or something So you could you could uh, if you if you want to if you'll share your lists out on the so your socials Jeff then you could you could hit them up there? Yeah, and I'll put Jeff socials in that in the in the description uh, all right Let's flip over to the last list Okay, so magikin of nergal in munificent wanderers Let's get that. Let's get plagueberry. Here we go. Guo and rodigus. That's right. We got the double big boys and then three by 20 plaguebearers And three nerglings Okay All right Six drops again hunters the heartlands and the alpha beast pack There's a bold selections. We're making here. Okay Uh Take us through this Basically, just throw it down and just come at me Just throw them across the board and everything just goes. I mean 40 40 plaguebearer or not 40 uh 60 plaguebearers is quite a bit to chew through It is yes each each one of those being as we said before 40 wounds 60 effective wounds You do have fleshy abundance off the guo in this So um, so they can certainly pop up to suddenly Being 60 wounds 90 effective wounds Uh, that is no joke. That is an unbreakable wall of meat Uh, so is this this is basically your your meat list, right? Yep, that's it. Yep, and that's just that, you know, even if you you know beat a bunch of them up Retreat them out throw another unit in their rally as you mentioned earlier. Oh wait. Oh here. They all come back Yeah, yeah, absolutely Uh The and by the way, this is a hundred and what I love about this is you got a thousand points in two models Yep, right and yet this list still has 170 wounds Taking two 500 point heroes Uh is normally the way to get yourself to a low wound count All right, but no here 170 the only question and this christ just raised this Can alpha beast have the the heroes in it? I thought I thought it was just behemoth as well It's just yeah Like but can it have hero behemoth senate leader behemoth senate? I thought it was just I thought they had to be behemoth only think that to be behemoth only. Yeah, I was wrong Sorry, that's okay. I was gonna bring that up. That's never happened with chris bb to it. No, it's okay I still like the list regardless like we don't we don't need that battalion in the end so we can just we can just No, that's fine. Just take it out. It's not there. There you go I love you jeff and most of your list and are you ready for the the three letters The bet here we go Uh, I don't I don't get this list at all, man How in the hell is this list winning games with battle tactics? How is it getting a battle tactics done? I wasn't killing it you you can still advance you can still I mean that's still there's still 20 models on an objective For each of those units All right, that's still that's still quite a few because most people are as we've talked about earlier running msu's so And you ain't gonna chew through all that Maybe I would love to see somebody I haven't seen have you guys seen anybody do really well With plague bear spam. I would love to see it. I just haven't yet and it doesn't make a lot of sense to me Like they're an extraordinary unit It's don't you're an idea about combined arms And uh building a toolbox with your nergal list going johnny style I totally get that with the unit of 20 and maybe a tenor or three by 10, but not 60 though Yeah, and then there's rodigus as well, which which we talked about I don't really Quite get the valley that is spring to the table at almost 500 points Why why rodigus? Let's start there with this list uh plinking damage from a distance because of the uh the spell That's literally it just plinking damage mortal wound output That gonna get enough done at 500 points A model's cool Yeah, I'll take that really cool It's a good defense So see jeff, I'm the agreeable one on the show and I've got to find ways to stop being so agreeable So you're getting the experience right now There you go. There it is because it does have a challenge, right? It's it's like it's 900 points of I'm not sure what these guys are doing as far as moving anybody off an objective, right? Yeah, like this this list does definitely have a hammer problem. That's the challenge Right, so it's can you win solely by just existing? Right Okay, Tyler, you know, I like to run just fun off the wall stuff. Anyway, so that's fair. That's fair Is uh, yeah, I would love to see you Yeah, we didn't necessarily say three competitive lists. That's true. That's true And this is this you gotta have some fun stuff in there And this one's just this is the this is the this is the meat challenge This is the nathan's hot dog eating contest of uh of nergal lists I mean look, I told you vents. I I finally found the thing that 10 protectors cannot kill 20 20 plague bears it turns out Sure, yeah Makes sense. I I um A couple weeks back I had a game with my slaves to darkness Uh, using like my standard sort of iron curtain slaves to darkness Let's do like a bad build was running to spoilers And I went into 20 plague bears with like Uh, I went in with like two units of five nights A chariot and a lord on karkidrack and I did eventually win that fight But like eventually It wasn't pretty but we did it We got there. That's what it took though out of that list to bring that unit down So, uh, never has the lord on karkidrack with his pitiful rend felt better than when he was attacking plague bears Let me just say that so I'm in my happy place. Yeah, I could shine now finally Yeah Uh, okay before we close with Emma's list if you had indulged me to mention I I did mention jack but I fell. I love jack's list from the from the weekends Again, it was I actually the burning head he had in as well, which is brilliant as a pairing with blowabs spell Maybe again, one of the best spells in the game arguably Uh that if anybody doesn't know blow up has the spell that anytime a unit so cast it on the unit I think it's within 14 Time it takes damage in a phase at the end of that phase. It's going to take another d3 mortal winds So again, if you've got a toolbox list some plague drones Some mortal wounds that you can blink off in the hero phase. You can do damage in each phase That's that was the other I've had two ways. Yeah that I've lost a unit of temperatures I think over the last two months. It was getting blocked bogged down by 20 plague bears and then a perfect combination of mortal wound spam Taking them out with yeah with him as the centerpiece But yeah, so he had that combo with the burning head to put that out think some mortal wounds Trigger that additional d3 from blow up spell. But that was really cool Yeah, four units of two blightlords blowab Four gods great and clean one. I think that was a list just to me That's like one of the clear expressions of some of the most efficiency that you could get out of this book when I look at it personally So big big fan of that and then Yeah, is that you guys have any thoughts on that list or is that no, I like it a lot I I agree. I like that a lot. I also think that I mean we'll talk more about using the as well of using the other When we get to Emma's list, we'll talk about endless spell potential for also disease casting But this that's an interesting sort of like corner shot at the combo with blowab spell there I I don't hate that at all. I mean a lot of what you can do in this list is show the The power of just lots of d3 mortal wounds or chip mortal wounds Especially in the current meta where lists often average around 100 wounds 110 wounds something like that, right? Like you can you can actually really in a sort of elite meta we currently live in It's amazing the kind of damage that stuff can do Um, which does say that those lists might change if we again go to hashtag horde meta and the wound count drifts up Right, suddenly those won't be the thing but something but again nergo's well positioned as we mentioned earlier to react to that It's not like a great unclean. We can't still just carve his way through hordes. It's not like blight kings Don't just make Just a mess out of low wound big unit. So there's there's certainly still options in this book to respond, which I respect um Yeah, absolutely If he had the stream of corruption spell that you've got in quite a few of these lists or maybe in all of these lists So, yeah, that was cool to see. I hadn't seen that around a whole lot. Maybe I was just missing it Yeah, and then the usual. Yeah, nerling infestation and then the wither stave I'm just an extraordinary artifact for again. Yeah for the mortal wounds. I'll put your talk about vents Yeah, I mean It's just a great combo, right? Like you're you're nerling infestation to make your very tough guo even tougher and the wither staff to make everything around him just drop dead And then Jeff I'm curious if you find this Kelly like I said earlier at the top of the show The the triple maggot lords god, I feel like that actually could be a pretty good list Yeah, so I've heard so i'm on a facebook group That's nothing but nergal or whatnot and one one did stick out where he ran those three I don't know what else was in the list, but literally the three maggot lords. I was like, okay That looks solid. I want to play that. I just need to get the other two maggot lords Just to see all three of those guys run and just Smack face would be pretty cool Yeah, totally You could still I was playing around with the variations today You know doing the the two list format that we've got going on with fall wars And it kind of worked out perfectly where it's like, all right get a nice core get festus in there Get triple maggot lords I think I threw in the lord of afflictions And Maybe that I think that was one of the the flex pieces. Yeah, that's what it was. It's one of the flex pieces Anyway, yeah, just a lot of a lot of optionality with with this love festus with those three for the healing the locus fecundity Minus one save roll spell if you can get that off on a seven that works out really well with the minus two Rend that's going to be doing a lot of the work from those those triple maggot lords All of them have the same mount profile. They can do some real damage You know, I like the little afflictions with that with overpowering stench arcan tome Make him a wizard get get the disease as part of that vents start the clock Uh with festus you could do like blades peer-to-faction or something else You know this list I had the three plague drones. You've got that Still had two by ten plague bears and blight lords. I was like, I don't know It's like there's a lot it was a three drop is battle reg It was like I so I hadn't seen a whole lot of these triple maggot lords list But yeah, it really feels like there's there's some real play with them right now Yeah, I feel like it might be slightly over investing honestly just because of the way Um, it's also half here on me. Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's kind of the way morbid X and or guts tend to Be filling the same role Frankly, um, just with slightly different Sort of yeah, slightly different capabilities, but basically they're in the same role Like I I get the I I could see two of them like pick your favorite between morbid X And or guts and and one of those and blow up sure like I'm I'm on board for that that that like That checks out to me. I get what you're doing. I understand what the the strategy is here the The third guy just feels like he's Like literally just the third wheel in this in this relationship, right? Like he's not he's not anything That's more of the yeah the fun thematic choice. Yeah, absolutely Yeah, I think it was something like this lord afflictions festus blow up or guts or morbid X two by ten plague bearer Yeah, yeah, two blightlords three plague drains. Yeah, you drop one of or guts or morbid X now You've got 300 to 320 points to work with if you flesh out more battle line Yeah, I mean that could even be what almost I was going to say that could be three blightlords a twoer and a one But your 10 points off with that Yeah, anyway, you could play around with that and have a pretty pretty damn good list. Yeah, yeah Okay, last up. We just wanted to share, uh, emma mangles list This is none of ours here, uh, emma as is in the pick of the week if you want to see the show Where she discusses this in some detail. Um, the coach show is linked in the description below Um, but we just wanted to spotlight it because I think it is a pretty great list as we just mentioned. So this is Uh in befalling host, um, it has the gua with blowab and or guts So the the combo that we just talked about with, you know, the two Uh, which are which which by the way would be my two picks Let me just say that. Um, I've I'm an or guts stan all day I think he's better than morbid X just bottom line Uh, and So and then 10 play bears 10 play bears one beast 10 play bears three more three by one another three by one singlet beasts Uh, battle reg battle reg battle reg Good stuff. Um Yeah, no, no that this was actually oh, yeah, no, this is the right list No, because it's yeah, because she had the rot coven. How did this? You sent me the wrong list. Oh And I didn't even notice Oh, oh, is that my fault? Oh, no, you sent me the list. Yeah. Oh, wow. I did. Oh crap Sorry, this is not her list. Go watch the show for her real list. Yeah, I apologize everyone Tyler sent me the wrong list and I just copy and paste it in and didn't even bother to reread it That's what I get for not double checking your work Tyler Not verifying That's what verify. Have you ever heard of that before? I I apparently didn't trust. Yeah, she was because she was using the rot ringer coven As she was. Yeah, let me pull it up real quick. Yeah, it's totally different Yes, so so let's let's uh, let's let's get off of this list because that's not right And we'll go back here All right. What was her list read out her list? Yeah, let me pull up the show And the mangos Uh, she had two endless spells that were fascinating choices the horigast and The shards of valagar. There we go the other one. Okay, so this is what I wanted to talk about so Okay, so I apologize everybody. We don't have the list to reference again blame Tyler Uh, no, it's all my fault because I'm supposed to double check everything. He sends me so you can blame me um The so she was using the rot ringer coven to power out these various incendiary endless spells Now shards of valagar Uh, this was actually a tom pick very early on so he's he's absolutely aligned with her like right when the book came out he was he was hot picking shards of valagar that week and Shards of valagar is interesting because it's an endless spell that moves but is very easily under your control and how it swings around Powered out of the rot ringer coven. It gives disease And it has these two big bases that you can swing around each other. Okay Um, it's got a very good range on it and as you swing the pieces of the little shards around It actually stops enemy. It doesn't stop it. It reduces enemy movement So it's doing everything you want it to do It's sitting there in their line with two pieces both of which are disease icon or disease beacons And it's slowing down the movement of the enemy army Okay, so shards is a hot pick for an endless spell out of this because remember the rot ringer sorcerers Whenever they cast a spell basically it gets the disease sort of trait and it acts like a nergal model passing out disease in the movement in combat phases Uh, the other one being the horror gas, which I really really like Um, not only again because of sort of the range and the capabilities here Um, but I'm gonna actually go pull up the horror gas so I don't get the so I can read you the exact text Because again, I think this thing is is underrated um So it's It's got a range of 12 inches and it flies eight So we're talking about sort of this 20 inch Threat range so good range, right? Units wholly within 12 inch of this end of the spell cannot receive commands in the battle shock phase In addition, if a unit fails a battle shock test wholly within 12 with this end of the spell Add d3 to the number of miles that flee so remember This this the the nature of nergal is such that as i'm sure as jeff will tell you um uh Gumber said that's my list tyler. There you go. That's he said you that's that's his list anyways The oh Oh my oh lord Brett that's hilarious There you go Okay, so the nature of this army is as i'm sure jeff you've seen is you're gonna spread a lot of mortal wounds Around to a lot of units, right and you're gonna have a lot of units that just end up taking battle shock tests Because you just chip away like here's you lost three guys over here and five guys over here and such and such Depending on how you build you can really lean into that and so being able to shut off Uh inspiring presence from the one unit you really want to crumble Because you're not a hammer that can just lift units often can make the huge difference Right, so not only do all these other people roll and then potentially have more Models flee out of their units, but also the one key unit. It suddenly ramps your uh Your offensive efficacy up into being at the level of a hammer because they have they bleed a bunch of extra models They never intended to lose So I just think it's an incredibly clever list using those two endless spells in a very synergistic way So I agree with that Um, I will include Emma's uh, uh an email with it Okay, well, I can't bring it up right now because we're in the middle of the show, but that but I appreciate it Let me There's too much detail to go through it, but I'll just give you the highlight give you guys the highlights Yeah, so it was filth bringers. What's the sub faction course with rock bringer coven Just as the leech lords She took the additional enhancement Spell as the additional enhancement. So all of these wizards have an extra spell again It's all about the utility toolbox that she's building with this list Yep, and then the three brought bringer Sorcerers one with master magic and arcane tome So it's casting an extra spell With the up to plus three to cast if they're all within the little triangle together And then yeah master magic to do the reroll unbind and reroll cast five rut spawns Orgots So she's got, you know, a really nice hammer piece there. She's got blowab And then yeah, two by five blikings excellent units We had a lot of discussion about them template bears Three narglings and then the hour gas shards of alligar 2000 on the nose six drops Battle regs. She's got a command entourage hunters for the two blikings Yeah, so she had the two blikings both in hunters And Yeah, jeff. I think like this you were talking early on about the the toolbox Building utility in your list combined arms. This is just such a beautiful list on that front There's so much that you can do with it. It's got hammers It's got uh responses to a lot of different situations It's it can it's got strong control elements too got strong control elements. Yeah, I can deal with hordes. She's got offensive visitations The horde killing spell on a two up The blikings to help deal with hordes. She's got hammers. She's got ways to do more wound spam Just a beautiful list that's also gonna actually you still probably be a real challenge to play well But yeah, I I love it and feel like it's it's a great expression of You know that the Johnny-ness that you can do with this. Yeah. Yeah, I agree It super leans into the Johnny aspect, right? It's it's utility toolbox control All over the place. It's a great list So it's a very combined arms again. Yeah. Yeah, just absolutely Yep, like you're looking at one two three four five six seven different War scrolls On top of the endless spells and whenever you're summoning so always think about that in terms of list building You know like if you get right usually seven is that number like yeah Armies that reflect the model range So yeah, that's a really cool aspect of it. But anyway, stop gushing about it So I'm sorry about the screw up. No, it's all right. All good my fault. Okay. Well good stuff guys That brings us to the end. So Well, let's let's say Jeff any final thoughts on nergal before we Call it a day here Again as as we said before I think a very very solid book Like one that I think gives everybody in all aspects a very good game And you know, it's not like it's gonna go out there and blow people away It's not like it's gonna go out there and get blown away And I think a very very solid book and that's why I enjoy playing them so much Yeah completely agree All right, tyler your final thoughts Clearly, I love this book. I hope we see more of it It's it feels like it's going to be able to adapt quite well You know, it's it's got a Yeah, a lot of variety that it can adapt as the meta shifts It gives good games. It's a it's an army. I love armies. We've been we talked a lot about this over the years as well armies that are Both factions and armies list that are designed to play five rounds. Yeah, sure That's how I love to build list because it helps give a good game for your opponents You're not blowing them off the board in round two And that's you know, nergal does that as sort of part of its its signature So, yeah, amazing book absolutely I Agree with both of everything you said I didn't expect to live in a world where I think the best designed book or maybe my favorite design to book Is nergal that just didn't seem like a possible world. I was very worried about this book I thought it was going to be, you know, like npe city as nergal often can sometimes be Uh or has been in its past. That was not the case here Uh, they did a fantastic job with this It's got like the versatility of it the viability to run different lists To put all the different units in play to have different paths to victory as I said at the beginning I think it's truly a standout. I hope we see a lot more units like there are books like this Uh, I hope that it's only surpassed when this is when the scaven book comes out in the summer fingers crossed Uh, that's that's that that's Give me that level of flavor and feeling like I'm really doing the thing when that book comes out And we're gonna have a great old time All right. Well, thank you Jeff very much. It was great to have you on the show, brother Thanks for having me Absolutely for all of you out there watching. Thank you so much for doing so don't forget to hit like hit subscribe Do all those important things. Uh, don't forget we have a uh, uh, patreon if you want to support the channel It's focused on hobby feedback and review So if you're trying to get a bunch of nergal painted and you want some help join in We got a fun discord community all that kind of thing links for everything as well as the merch store To decide if you want to support team tyler or team tom is down in the description team tyler still winning Team tyler cannot is a train. It cannot be beaten So What's that? I'm doing my best. I've been rocking team summer. I mean had it in my in my twitter profile But thank you everybody for watching. We really appreciate it and uh, as always We'll see you next wednesday