 Hello, welcome. My name is Ying Li. I am the Community Programming Producer at the Playwrights Realm. My pronouns are she, her. I am thrilled to welcome you to our virtual stage today for an exciting panel. I also want to thank HowlRound for live streaming this event today. Before we dive in, I would like to go over some logistics and some information. The Playwrights Realm is a value-based organization, and we center in our practice the values of being an equitable, inclusive, anti-oppressive, and anti-racist organization. These values extend to our virtual stage, so if at any time you feel you experience something that is not aligned with those values, please feel free to chat me directly or follow up with an email. I'll put some more information about our mission and values in the link in the chat. I'll link it in the chat. Connected to these values, we understand and recognize that there are additional barriers for caretakers, so if you incur any caretaking costs by attending this webinar, we'd be happy to reimburse you for those expenses. This is through our radical parent inclusion project. In the follow-up email that I'll send you tomorrow, there'll be a link to reimburse this, and I'll put some more information about this in the chat. I also want to acknowledge that we are joining you today from the traditional and seated territories of the Lenape. Colonization is an ongoing process that continues to impact the lands and lives of Native communities. In addition to the physical land that we occupy today, the platforms, technology, and equipment that we are using also consume resources that are based in physical lands and are not universally accessible to all peoples and communities. I'm sharing a link in the chat if you'd like to learn more about the spaces we occupy. We're about to dive in. Before we do, I want to remind you that you can submit any questions you have in the Q&A that's at the bottom of your screen, and feel free to upvote any questions you would like answered. We'll choose some at the end for our panelists to answer. Zoom now offers captions. Please feel free to turn them on if you would like, and I'm also sharing in the chat a program for today's event. They have our panelists' files and information. Feel free to check that out, and it is my pleasure to welcome you today to our virtual stage, the lead panelists for today, Hope Chavez. Thank you so much. Hello, everybody. My name is Hope Chavez. I use she, her pronouns. I am calling into you today from Texas actually. I am working remotely in a new location, so if you hear a dog barking, that's my best friend's dog, but we're all being humans in the space, right? So I just want to thank the Playwrights' Room so much for introducing this conversation for us. I am deeply invested in having these conversations amongst the producer community, but I am really grateful to have that cracked open here today with all of you so that we can have a live dialogue about this. So I'd love to welcome the panelists and invite them to take themselves off on camera, bring yourselves into this virtual space. While they come in, I will say that this is such a, I don't know, like I'm sort of in shock that you all said yes, because in this collective here are people whose careers I have admired and followed for many years. There are new faces here to me. There are friends faces here, folks that I love to work with. So this is just like a really warm and exciting space for me, and I hope it can be the same for you all as well. So I'd love for you, I will help popcorn us around so I'll like say who can introduce themselves, give us your name, give us your pronouns, and then I'd love for you to just tell us like something that you're bringing with you into this conversation, maybe a thought that you've been chewing on as you come into this or an experience that you're holding or even just like your mood right now, that's all good. I'm happy to start and to model. So I've shared my name, my pronouns. I am the director of artistic planning at Longworth Theater. I also do freelance consulting and facilitation work, mostly with small and mid-sized nonprofit arts organizations, and then facilitation community work where I normally am living in New Haven, Connecticut. And I'm bringing so much curiosity into this conversation. Something that we talked about a little bit in the prep call that we had was like, who is the audience for this, right? Who is going to be here? And how does that inform the way we answer this question? We can't see who all of you are in this video. We'll live on beyond this moment where we have this dialogue, but I'm thinking a lot about what does it mean to have this conversation amongst BIPOC folks who are producers are anti-racism lens versus the anti-racism lens that white folks who might be watching this are thinking and experiencing as they come to this work. So that's just something percolating in my brain. And I will pass it over to Denzel. Hi, how are you doing everybody? My name is Denzel Faizon, pronouncing him. I'm the operations manager for the National Black Theater. Something I'm bringing to this conversation is a blessed perspective of always being around the National Black Theater since birth and always having the space to express my artistic vision no matter what and always feeling safe. And I hope to share my experience with that with you today in this conversation. I pass this to May Ann. Hello. Hi, I'm May Ann too. I use they and she pronouns. I'm calling in from Lenape and Karnasi lands also knows of Brooklyn, even though I am the associate artistic director of new work at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival, which is a new job stepping in there. Here we go. I'm going to be totally honest and I'm coming fresh from an experience where I quit a directing job because the organization did not have the infrastructure to produce the play or any play safely. It's a happy story in a way because they immediately shut down the play. They canceled it and they canceled their season and they hired an EDI consultant and they're making actual change. And it was surprising to me was the first time I realized that stopping is a strategy. I've always been in the like, no, no, we can do it. We can like go, we can like whatever. Sometimes actually stopping to like pause and like see how we got there and like look at that. It's very, very important and I've never understood that in my life before. And I really appreciate that I've gotten that experience. I'm going to pass it to Sam. Thank you. Hi everybody. My name is Sam Morielli. I use they them pronouns. First also would like to honor and acknowledge that I too am on Lenape and Conarcyland in Brooklyn. And thank you hope for inviting me into this conversation. I'm so grateful to be in community with all of you and also all of you watching. I'm so excited for this dialogue. Myself, I would say I'm a freelance producer and freelancing right now. I would say I'm an emerging producer. I hope to always be emerging and arriving to the moments that I need to arrive to my whole practice I would say is really rooted in facilitation. So my freelance right now I show up as a facilitator through producing through actual facilitation through anti-racism training and dialogue and workshops. And through strategic planning, all of which are really exciting and fruitful to me. And I think I'm arriving to how am I arriving today. I am arriving. I was thinking about being you know, being emerging and what that means and how how necessary conversations in our industry about care for the artist are and how on our on my heart they are as a producer. And also really desiring more conversations about how we we care for each other like as producers collectively and help each other up. I think that as a young producer of color specifically, I have been like, I've already had a really lovely career. So I'm like, wow, I feel like I'm in all these places and joining all these institutions. I feel good about the communities I've attached myself to and they spam pretty regionally. And in everyone I feel very exceptionalized and affirmed and uplifted and also find myself still not quite having the support that I asked for. And so I think I really am coming into today's conversation, holding that and also looking to all of you and this community to answer some questions about how we care for each other. Yeah. So with that, I'll pass to you, Sheminda. Oh, wonderful. Thank you. Thank you so much. Sheminda Amarakun, he, him, calling in from the lands of the Wappinger and Quinnipiac and the Fatsip people here in New Haven, Connecticut. We work at the David Geffen School of Drama, newly renamed as their director of production, as well as on faculty and share of the technical design and production program. And coming into today so inspired by what I've heard, I also love to consider myself emerging, despite working in this field for a while. I really love that framework, Shem. We are always in growth. We are always learning and we are best, or at least I am at my best when I'm in the growth and learning mode. So definitely consider myself emerging, bringing that in here, and also just bringing in a whole lot of gratitude and joy. I hope you're right. This is a fantastic group. And I'm so honored to get to at least sit in, if not offer some thoughts. So thank you. Thank you for having me. This is truly wonderful, as well as a whole lot of gratitude for just getting to come back to work in person. We were all on Zoom last year. We were completely online at Yale and we did get a lot done, but I just so forgot the power and the impact of just running into people in the hall or in the street and just catching up and just being humans together for five minutes, for 10 minutes. And so I've been loving getting to do all of that as tough as it has been to come back and to figure out what it means to come back differently and not just replicate what we've had before. So very much appreciated just to be in space with folks here and connect as humans. So bringing that into the space today. I love that. We're not quite fully back up at Long Wharf yet in person, but I share the moments that I've been back. I share that like, obviously this is why we do what we do. That need for those sparks, those spontaneous sparks. So I want to ground us with a little bit of context. So our question today is what does anti-racist producing look like? And I want to offer that like, I don't know that all producers are necessarily type A linear thinkers like highly pragmatic. And when I see that question, my brain is like, what are the 10 steps of process that I can offer to the room of like how you do this, right? Which is like a deeply colonized way of thinking and like not the truth of the meat of what's under this question. So I want to invite us to as panelists to like work our way through this question in ways that don't have to look like direct answers. And I also want to name for the folks who are watching that it will be hard for us to talk about just racism because racism is inextricably linked to ableism and transphobia and homophobia and sexism and capitalism and all of these other structures. So like know that we are holding that as the central point of the question and we're probably going to connect the dots to some other systems that have to be dismantled at the same time as we dismantle racism. And we're obviously going to speak in a very American context here. So we don't those I believe all of us work almost exclusively if not of course majority time here in the U.S. So just to speak to how we approach anti-racism work within the history of this land and these communities that we work within. Something that Sam challenged us to think about as we even begin to take apart this question is like maybe we should talk about what a producer is first and it doesn't have to be in like the one-on-one way. It can be more like what are we responsible for as we think about how we approach an anti-racism practice with producing. It's probably important for us to first identify like what do we see ourselves as responsible for? What is our role, our authority, our power? Like what is it that we as producers hold in process? So someone jump in for that. I think that's a call out Sam. I think that's what that is. I'm definitely I mean I'm happy to jump in first here. I'm excited to hear all of your answers and I think I also just deep gratitude for that context too I think that as I just practice anti-racism something I feel like I'm learning is specific like specificity is key and something I crave is being able to speak to unique contexts like we're trying to we're trying to name dynamics as they show up in a specific context and it's only as we can kind of whittle things down to their essence I think that we can really build on a strong foundation moving forward. The first definition of a producer that was kind of shared with me that really resonated was that we are charged with bringing an artistic process from concept to completion. I don't think that necessarily needs to be like one entity one institution one producer I think that shows can I would say the producing process is from its concept to completion and it probably has many folks who hold and produce along the way and I I say concept to completion too really specifically because I don't think it's necessarily like I think some folks think about producing is like once the show's up we're done it's produced and now it's just on its like production timeline but I actually think that there's still a lot of care that the producer should have as a show is running and sometimes even past its close like a debrief a consulting process check in with the team about how how they feel about the close of things and to the other part of your question of like what what are we really charged with I would say traditionally it's as it's been shared with me it's the the money a lot of the budget a lot of the leads financial ease speaking and I think deeper than that because of the money it's also about the the culture building of artistic teams like we are charged with holding the culture of the artists who whose projects we are helping to steward and and steer yeah anybody else have thoughts I saw you Denzel unmute so I feel like I want to pass to you yeah sure um I wanted to speak to the fact you know simplest terms when I think about what a producer does and it speaks directly to how you just how you beautifully describe what a producer does and the producers to glue you know keep everything together from concept to for concept to application fruition of a show an artistic piece whatever you're deciding to produce producers job is to make sure that that production achieves its goals whether that goal is to speak truth to power whether that goal is to you know generate a certain hope you know generate a certain amount of money um goals are you know they you know whatever the morality of the goals the producers job is to make sure that the production from start to finish uh achieves them yeah that all resonates um I think a lot about what you're saying Sam with facilitation as someone who does both like community conversation facilitation and also produces and I absolutely see them as uh I I recall when I uh I started producing before I started before I became identified myself as a facilitator and received like training around facilitation and I was so grateful for the um organizations that financially supported me getting those trainings because um I see us to your point Denzel as the communication glue especially I think of um I'm going to fail at getting the quote right but you know Adrienne Marie Brown talks about facilitation being about bringing ease to process bringing ease to difficult conversations that doesn't mean they're easy but to bring in ease right to kind of like like lubricate the the avenues through which we have to like get through these conversations and do these hard things of bringing in an ideal world extremely diverse people and different folks of different lived experiences together um in order to create art which is highly personal and sensitive um so I appreciate I see I see us as being really responsible for that for the way in which folks communicate and the way in which um power information and resources are um allocated to folks is there anyone else who'd like to weigh in mayanna shamenda be happy to I'm so inspired by you know what what you all offered and I hope um absolutely concur I think I might just add um you know some some aspects about um your responsibility to community and uh how you know we as the producers producing uh organizations um uh should be I think in service to to the communities that we gather together including those artists and and press the folk who are working within our institution but not really so much the the audience that we invite to or engage with by going to them I think we have a responsibility to them particularly because you know there's there's always going to be more work to produce and we have time and resources to produce them which means our choices matter our choices matter in what we choose to elevate right um and they should matter but but there's a lot of responsibility that comes with how we then make those choices why we're making those choices um because um because of the power we we have um uh to have influence and and hopefully that influences for the betterment of our communities um a hop in here like yes yes yes yes yes yes and I want to continue like the baton that shamenda just like through me and I think it's I'm going to say about what I want producers to have and not just what producers do because shamenda just started you just started going like can we please do this as well right and I think I long for producers to have a vision based on understanding the situation of what is in our society of how and what we make so that the people who are holding these whole processes the glue and all of that also have a vision of like oh this is what we should not do oh how hard is it for people to have um families and work in this industry thank you playwrights brown that's like some visionary stuff to be like oh you're here you wanted that you have a child you need childcare let's go right like how can we actually be as producers deeply connected to the most vulnerable to those who um need more access how can we really like be attuned to that and not just go for the most efficient and in terms of budget in terms of all the things how can we have a vision that is much larger than what is is on the what is usually the thing that we have to sort of like come to right like how can our budget be our values how can we actually think about those things in a way that's just um um beyond what we're taught to do or what we think we should do yeah don't even get me started on budgets man I had a hard time not making this conversation all about budgets but we'll get there I put one question in my list I was like I'm not going to not talk about money but um I get that but like okay so so I I'm grateful for this like this like foundation setting and this seating right so how is it that we do that right how I would love to start with like folks sharing what is how is it that we go about beginning and laying the foundation for these processes so that we are living anti-racism so that as man said like we are bringing our vision and I don't mean our like our singular because a lot of us work within institutions too that are trying to that that have cast a vision for like the world we want right the world that we're striving for the community repair we're striving for things like that but how do we start laying that foundation from the beginning when we're brought into a process and just to name I'm curious to um if you feel comfortable like say I'm approaching that from a perspective of as a freelancer right what does that look like when you're coming into an institution laying foundation where are there challenges in that and then Denzel I'm also curious about how that's probably distinct when you're working at a theater of color instead of working at a predominantly white institution um I'll speak first um so uh Angela's day Angela Davis I'm sorry has a famous quote in a racist society it's not enough to be non-racist we must be anti-racist coming from the perspective of national black theater anti anti-racism is has been embedded in its mission since its founding in 1968 when you think of the you really think of the time of 1968 in terms of the civil rights movement and then just the history of arts and theater in this country and how at every step was really you know every every black artist and people of color when they came to the arts is really to quote all my life I had to fight uh in terms of being able to have spaces and to practice your craft and to share your craft with the community and not be dismissed um I think it's important to acknowledge uh specific concepts the specific context of racial capitalism in this country and how it affects people of color um when I say racial capitalism I mean racism as a technique for exploiting people of color and for fermenting hostility and working class white people towards people of color to enable uh capitalists and people in power to extract value from everyone else um yeah it's this long-standing common super problematic in theater um and that's at the that's at the crux I believe of anti-racist producing acknowledging that and taking the steps to combat that um like I said before I come from a unique perspective of being at the national black theater all my life uh being at primarily white institutions for me came from going to school going to primarily white schools and experiencing it there um yeah that's my perspective on it yeah thank you Denzel Sam you're already getting so much love in this chat I know I saw hi Demi guy oh um oh no my computer's freezing we can see and hear you okay okay I'm gonna pretend like nothing's happening but know that I just see a frozen image of my own face so I may need to jump from my zoom but if you can't hear me just let me know I can see like my captions coming up so I'm assuming all is good um I I can't say that I can speak for all freelancers of course um I can only speak to my own experience here and I I where do I begin I'm like so excited by the visions Sheminda and man that you offered for like producing moving forward that I already think like that's anti-racist pursuing so I'm still trying I'm trying to break from my like type A my also type A Virgo mind that's like I want to unpack this um so uh linearly because I don't think we need to do that um but something something that I know to be true as somebody still emerging and freelancing is that I um I really like I I honestly just like push against institutionally like all of the previous models of produce the models of producing that keep us just as managers and not as like people movers um so which I think is distinctly the difference between a producer and an artistic producer or creative producer for instance so I think that holding that title feels very important to me and just not sacrificing my values and my integrity as I move um and attach myself through each institution just still recognizing that if you hired me you've asked for all of me you've asked for all of me to show up and so I'm going to show up with all of me which might mean interrupting um their systemic ways of processing and and offering my own thoughts as to uh how we should move forward with care for the artists that we are trying to serve um I have many more thoughts but I'm very distracted by my frozen screen and so I'm going to try to jump and fix this zoom problem if that's okay and pass back to someone else here that's totally okay hope I have something to say um so I want to I I just want like yes to that and also um just hoping up on what Denzel like brought in about you must be anti-racist so let's just say that if you're not doing anti-racist producing you're doing racist producing let's just like let's just say that that's the case right yeah you're either on the train you're off the train there's really actually no in between and what if everything that you did you actually were able to sort of go and say how is this racist given the fact that we are dominantly in a racist society so everything that's there can pivot to being anti-racist so every practice every assumption that you might make about how you produce every way you think about how things should be done could actually use a pivot because that is that is that is the state we're in where where it could all use a little examination and pivot so that's what I want to like name to like anti-racist producing almost is like oh what's that oh what are you doing and how is that racist like let's actually look at that right and put and put the onus on identifying what is actually there that is part of the system that has has been there um Nataki Garrett the artistic director of osf she says this thing when we're like oh like oh why is it so efficient or why is it blah blah blah what are these questions the clarity of her line is who benefits who benefits from that who benefits so if if if producing has always been in a certain way and it has been racist we can ask who benefits and then we can continue to ask how do we pivot that for anti-racist producing who benefits how right like what what what's that thank you also sorry now that I'm less stressed about my tech thank you for offering that clarity also just to build I think that part of the reason why I think we need to shift right from that old producing model that I'm talking about is also is exactly that question like I think that we as a nonprofit the or my experience of the American nonprofit theater industrial complex is that we have forgotten that we are nonprofits like the point is not to make money in fact to the point is to reach a net zero um and I I what I experience of older producing models is that it was so focused on just the money making of it all which is what capitalism wants us to focus on um that also feeds into racism and all the other systems of oppression right as opposed to keeping the people at the center and asking who benefits all the time in our process as producers who are who are asked to steward the resources and and gift the resources and facilitate the resources right like if we consistently remember we're not trying to benefit ourselves we're not trying to benefit the institution like as long as we reach our net zero we're good it's more important to take the time to breathe through and ask the question who benefits how can we shift what we're doing in order to support the artists in order to support the storytelling in order to support our local community um than it is for us to consistently thrive because again again like in the reminder of the nonprofit it's like if we fulfill our missions we're supposed to sunset like the point is that like once we reach that goal we're done otherwise we wouldn't be nonprofits I have a friend who has really encouraged me to think about how nature composts and how can we compost like how can we bring intentional death in a cycle to a thing and and have it been like nourishing right the death actually nourishes future life and it makes fertile soil for future life um so what does it look like to go through a process with that kind of intentionality of like and we will end whether it's the nonprofit or the show right how will we decompose this and then ensure that the deck that compost is like creating more nutrition for our community as we continue to like grow again and and sunset so I just wanted to share that because that was beautiful Sam uh Shaminda do you want to add anything about like foundation laying in a process yeah thank you so much I'm really moved as I as I knew I would be right by what's been offered so far what I might add is you know you said how how might we begin this process and you know for me I think it this does start with as as this that was calling in an analysis of of those systems and structures that we are living in including those who have worked on this for for decades for generations so folks like Angela Davis you know provided for us a really succinct and clear analysis of what is still going on in the world around us which is the same as the analysis that Frederick Douglass was bringing into the conversation you know a couple centuries ago around what was happening uh in this land uh and and building off of the the work and thoughts going back even further right so um so there there there is um there's it there's actually a science to this right this is not that you know things that you know people are are making up there there's a lot of research there there's a lot of analysis that has already been done that we should be also bringing into this because uh you know as as as Carmen reminds us and and of course like without that analysis you know our concepts of you know trying to run one way in anti-racism might be running in directly the the same way towards another racist concept and structure because everything is so interlaced right as we are trying to solve quantity over we might be leaning into paternalism or perfectionism right you know all of those things are interlaced and we have to have that analysis to be mindful as we move forward but but as we do that I think also what's important to me to remember is it really isn't the beginning like we we are not at the beginning folks have been doing this work for decades for generations before us um and I really love uh Hana Shirees offering that that we are part of that continuum right we are continuing on with their work um and so to uh to think about this as a beginning it might be a beginning for where you're at but you are continuing on with generations of work um so so let that be a source of the foundation for you because it is you know this these are original thoughts we are building them off the work of those who have come before in service of not just those around us but those who will come after us you know many generations after us those we won't see uh even that is why we are doing this work um so it is a bit of a beginning um but really um I think I think that's an apropos metaphor but that that that decomposition is part of the cycle it's part of a growth it's part of a continuum um and we are we are now trying to help along with that um and you are not alone you're not alone in that yeah thank you for that Sheminda and I dropped this in the chat but for folks who can't see the chat here who are watching us on all their platforms I want to amplify what you're sharing Sheminda and and this idea of like compost um we know compost to be something that helps sustain a larger ecosystem beyond the thing the individual fruit or plant that decomposes right and so something um I'm often challenged by working at an institution is the tension between we often talk about sustainability right and that sometimes we make these highly efficient or practical decisions that might to your point man um not benefit the individual artist but benefit the institution because we're working towards what feels like a very righteous goal of like the institution's viability the institution's sustainability the institutions like longevity and I'm constantly reminded of how the pandemic proved exactly the way in which that suffers artists greatly right and the way in which it leaves them with no safety net um and so I'm I'm I'm really curious about this idea Sheminda of looking at generations beyond us looking at how what we do compost into a larger ecosystem it's like who is it sustainable for it sustainable for us the institution or sustainable for our community um it's a it's a question I'm often grappling with um in terms of foundation setting I would love to just share with folks that um in my experience it's about the vulnerability of the producer that really um that really sets the culture for the process that allows for uh for us to become more aware and notice more um where systems of racism systems of all the isms where all the isms show up um it really starts in my opinion with the vulnerability of the producer how do we have those first conversations with folks do we start with values do we explain budget transparency to folks right do we talk about how we like to communicate something we're starting to do at Longmorph is talk about how do we want to engage in conflict um if we if we start looking at conflict as a thing that is inherent to human interaction and not uh not always evil and doesn't always mean harm happens sometimes conflict is just where difference meets um then how how do we want to engage in that together in a way that's like really thoughtful and accountable um so I'd love to I'd love to hear and this is truly hope asking for like almost advice here um something I think about something that I think we've all shared as part of our responsibility is taking care of artists right and um and anticipating needs I think traditionally it was how do we anticipate problems whether they're technical financial uh problems with time problems with communication but as we think about anti-racist producing being more holistic how do we anticipate the human needs of people and how do we make space for that and I'd love to hear how you all are approaching that specifically in a way that doesn't also then lead into paternalism because something I'm not interested in is uh saying well I know what you person who shares a different identity than me is going to need and I feel really great that I planned for it and now I'm going to get defensive when you tell me what I did for you is not what you were looking for I think that's that's a slippery slope when we're like I did an anti-racist thing but it wasn't what someone needed so talk to me about how you navigate that um it made me uh once again think about Adrian Marie Brown quote um you made me think of it before uh when you mentioned them essentially it boils down to when a facilitator needs to trust the people and for me I think that means uh I think for a producer and a facilitator they should do the best they can to prepare for needs based on the needs that show up in their lives and their and the people that they know a lot and the people that they know in their lives and their other theater contemporaries uh but let the people and the people being these artists uh designers that are part of the production process let them dictate what they need um and let you know what they need because if you paternalism is very once you dictate the speed of change or once you tell people what they need you've slipped into paternalism and it's um very destructive to the creative process so prepare for as many eventualities as you can based on your own experiences and then when your artists come to you saying hey this is something I need to be the best that I can be in this process for me to feel safe in this process um as a producer you do everything you can to address the need I mean that you may not be able to address the need exactly exactly how the artist wants but address it as best as you can and then every time a new need comes up you know you now have that in your expectations or your events in your eventualities of well now that I saw this in this production process I can keep an eye out for this in the next production process but it all boils down to trust the people trust your artists to let and give them space to let you know what they need 110% echoing all of that I think that um I think that white supremacy really asks us to be mind readers in our jobs and that is humanly unless anybody knows there's some fun tech that I don't know about I think that's pretty humanly impossible um and so I think and I think this is a lesson I have learned so clearly as a freelancer who I think also like can um fall into the the like colonizer trap of like coming into an organization as this like new third party and then not not just being paternalizing like or perpetuating paternalism but also um I think literally like coming in and acting like oh now this is mine and I know how it's supposed to move forward right that's also a colonizing tendency and I think instead of doing that truly just asking the question revealing that's what I think producers can do is like we can reveal all of the doors all of the many possibilities that exist and also acknowledge that we don't know like I think claiming I do not know I do not know but I am very interested in helping you figure it out and using the resources I have access to to find the right door find the right avenue find the right window whatever it is that you need I think that being really clear about clear that I'm also showing up in my own humanity here like I know that we have an idea of what the producer is supposed to do and I'm telling you I'm not going to be able to fulfill fulfill all those needs nor do I want to perpetuate this other this idea of what the producer is so instead how can you the community that I'm trying to serve also help me redefine what it is that I do how do we remain in that kind of reciprocal relationship instead of staying in um these the cycle of service that we've created for ourselves where like each show right like because because each show is a different community but we've created a system where each show comes in and we treat them exactly the same or like that's how we've been taught to produce right is that like every show comes in they have first rehearsal they get to opening night within like four to five weeks and then they have their run that's however long and then they get out and the next one loads in and we keep going and we keep going and we keep going but as we expand the canon and also see particularly as somebody who works at predominantly white organizations right it's like when you bring in a black cast when you bring in a multiracial cast a latin cast an asian american get all of the types of casts that are non-white and then you start serving them the way that you've traditionally served white casts and white shows you find that all of our systems are broken they're not actually meeting these people in their humanity instead we're just doing them a disservice doing a lot of harm and really just doing a disservice to the whole creative process so if instead we can pause to ask how can I show up for you what do you need and then try to build systems for that I know it's like it is more labor it is more time and I want to honor that that's true and I also believe that like both of those things are abundant and I am ready and willing to give right like I want to help usher those processes so if that means breathing through it pausing changing a date I want to I want to offer and open that door I feel like sometimes as you were saying before me and we don't we just don't ask the question and it's as simple as saying like who who are we serving who who is at the center of what we're trying to to build foreign with and how do we pause and breathe and give at the time and resources that it needs I want to hop in there like yes Sam and also like some of those systems didn't serve white folks either like they serve human beings it's like okay why do we work this way oh do we have a life I I really resonate with all of these I think for me it's about um understanding what a culture of care is so it's a a larger perspective of what it means to understand what yourself and other people with different experiences demographics and you know a mother you know all of it like all of these different things what people's lives actually look like and to actually care about the multiplicity of that um and then options so people can like opt for it or not it's like that's why I think the paternalism can be really uh uh helped where people are like no I don't need the extra therapist like like and the extra support for that I'm good thank you right like it's not forced upon it it's just an option and then a constant loop of feedback so that like like that's what I think like people are saying like that so if you have a culture of care first of all people having that option will understand that that's like part of those details and then you have feedback people will actually tell you but if you don't have a culture of care people will not tell you because they don't think they're supposed to you can say like what do you need but they wouldn't even go to say like I need childcare because it's not the industry standard so the culture of care is really about breaking industry standard because that is capitalist and racist and patriarchal and actually saying culture of care is moving us into a place where we're actually understanding what people's lives look like and then operating from there with their agency and being able to listen yeah again I love uh I love all of these thoughts and um uh particularly that you know that culture of care it's it's really resonating with with me and um and and that individual it's individuality that that is necessary within that right because of you know the the initial question of how do we not just assume we know what's best for everybody right um even as much as we might learn year in year out um our lessons from the previous year with regard to the same exact culture and community uh we are are likely bringing individuals um that have different experiences in that next year and so we still need to be attuned to what their their needs might be um and it's super tough I just want to name this like I mean it's it's really hard um uh you know particularly in our institutionalized systems that that we have here uh where things are so interlaced um how do we how do we slow down figuring out that question um because of the knockout effects right it's it's not just slowing down for one individual it's slowing down for the whole community right and what does that mean and how do we all uh get uh uh get get into that project right um where whatever we're working at in the moment um there is a higher purpose and when one individual uh needs a bit more care needs us to slow down we are all on board with slowing down uh take care of that um that community member right so that we can actually be a community and not just an institution that is moving forward here all this portion of the slowdown right so we're trying to figure that all out and I what I've been additionally offered is um uh just just as as my colleague Narda Alcorn or constantly reminds us lead with love and lead with grace um you know uh uh we're going to make mistakes you know we're going to make a lot of mistakes and uh Nicole Brewer has reminded us often you're going to do harm you know people are going to get harmed like we can't flip a switch and like all of a sudden we're in an anti-racist society like we're still in that racist society in that oppressive society and harm is going to happen um and uh if you're but if you're leading with love if you're leading with grace also leading with um you know I'm sorry you're leading with I'm here to listen first um uh and then you're leading with care right and so or proceeding with care um so so so grace and love including for yourself right as as producers as managers uh we do often take on a lot shoulder a lot of the responsibilities shoulder a lot of the blame um because we are accountable right um but that that can destroy us too and and as if we're not also mindful of the grace and love that we we owe ourselves we're not going to be that well of service to other people too so uh lead with grace and lead with love I just really appreciate that offering that like harm reduction offering that harm reductionist standpoint too because I do firmly believe that um white supremacy built all of these systems that we now all subscribe to with a lot of violence like a lot as we like I I could not even try to quantify in words the amount of harm that that communities have experienced that many in I know my generation like we are some of us are actively experiencing some of us are just experiencing the the ramifications of choices made only really one generation ago in some now some instances but I I really think that you know the way that we've been taught and the way we experience like when you are are a person in institution that has a lot of resources that is because of these systems of violences this this this violent system and giving those resources up or redistributing them is a sacrifice and that will hurt you know it's like it's not going to feel good to get rid of these systems and I think that that is something that I try to share in my own facilitated practices like it doesn't this if we're getting rid of this I don't think it's going to feel good it's going to take a lot of work it's going to take a lot of sacrifice it's going to take a lot of labor and hopefully we can do it do the least harm as we do we try to undo the violence that has happened but I truly think like it's not it's the the feeling it's not going to be very pleasant but I believe that what's on the other side is joy and love and kindness um and and pleasure right I think that right and like if we want more people to have that others also need to recognize that there's first uh Sonia Renee Taylor talks about discomfort so beautifully and I would highly encourage everybody to go her to her Instagram and just watch every video you've ever seen you ever want to watch um but talks about these moments of change literal change where we're like shirt over our heads like in transition like that is that's that's it's just a transition moment it is uncomfortable maybe sometimes it's painful but we are going to get through it because what's on the other side is being the changed system that we want to be I want to jump in and say two quick things the first is what I'm hearing underneath all of your answers that we've said this earlier in the panel but I want to really highlight it for the folks who are watching um is that underneath all of this requires a deep self awareness and deep self regulation right we all are coming from a place where I will speak somewhat broadly but I think we all share like an awareness of where our identities are what our areas of privilege are what our areas of oppression are what our folks have mentioned of what our lineages what is the context of the space we're coming to so starting you know like I think of it as so many circles nested circles right we're starting with like first you have to uh Carmen Morgan says this facilitator know thyself right so producer know thyself right no first where you are coming from um and and also like your temperament what what kind of things trigger you what kind of things do you need to like learn to delegate because this is something you don't know how to handle yet with grace where is um where can you seed your own power and ego in order to step aside and say you know what I'm not going to know how to handle this as as best as possible so what I'm going to do is allocate resources to someone else who I can be in like a learner relationship with while I grow the muscles to do this thing but I just really want to underscore that because I have certainly seen folks who are well intentioned jump immediately into what they understand to be anti-racism work or edi work um to go like really in the other direction to bring in like you know as a white theater to bring in their first all black team and to be like we did it and then like not as individuals have the awareness of what it is that they have to do for their personal work in order to do this community work so also man just really underscoring this idea that sometimes a pause sometimes a not doing is is like really important um but there there's also threads here coming out in what I think man and Sheminda and Sam have said here that in my mind touch to accountability so I want to kind of get a twofer in here there's a question in the Q&A which folks I will pivot towards in just a moment um that I think threads this as well um but talk to me about your own accountability processes whether that's you could share maybe individually something that you do to keep yourself accountable because I will say like something we've identified is producers hold a lot of power right we do know where a lot of information and money and things live and we often have the power if not on our own to persuade others to make changes in systems and in and in process so um with that power how do we hold ourselves accountable or how do we how do we address harm when it happens um what does that look like in a producing process because I will say that as part of anti-racist producing again looking at this as full humans harm will happen how do we um how do we address that um and man specifically I'm curious too because this is one of the questions in the Q&A if there's ways in which you go about since you brought up feedback loops um creating channels that are safe and effective for that I'm going to start first with what you asked um and remind me if I don't get back to creating a feedback loop but maybe maybe it'll be all be connected so I went through an incredibly hard time at an institution I've taught at and it required me to go through mediation with folks because um the the situation got so toxic and I remember going through training with the mediator and and now that I've gone through it I I feel like it's so so powerful a learning in my life that I carry it still to today and something that she noticed was that she said um um I just want a name that when this comes up like when someone accuses you of not being a good professor or like blah blah blah you get incredibly defensive and I just want to point you towards uh this book how to have difficult conversations and these two chapters and the one of the chapters was when you get defensive it's because your identity is fragile and that you actually don't really believe it or understand it is true because if you did then you wouldn't need to get defensive right it's it's just very simply like that's a shaky part of your own identity and you can actually assess that like oh why is it that I don't believe that or why am I afraid of that or what is going on really um that makes me understand that makes me not understand that that's coming from their jealousy as opposed to my own understanding of myself know that I self right what's going on there so that was a very helpful concept for me of like if I'm getting defensive I can ask myself why why is it that I can't just be like that's not true boom right like why is it like awakening all that in me that was that was one thing the other thing is that there is no shame or blame so if we move from a culture of shame or blame we can actually move to a culture of contribution so what that is is if a situation is at hand it's not any one person's fault the situation requires everyone there and there are different ways of contribution that got us to that moment and the way to actually solve that is to both of the people or whoever else is to be able to like step and look at it together and say how did we get here without any shame or blame and I think that that to be honest is I think at the core of that because we actually don't operate well with white guilt white guilt does not help us at all and white shame does not help us at all it just goes to have like a backlash and also neither does my Chinese guilt or shame help me it goes into a backlash right shame or guilt does not help now what does help is us understanding like where is it coming from what is how is this happening how has this been inherited by many you know Asian femme ancestors beyond you know like oh like what is actually happening there and also with such grace and generosity to try to be able to heal that and myself so I can heal it back in the line of ancestry that is coming from and also try to heal it in myself so that others can also be healed so I don't perpetuate the shame and blame that we've been taught to to to handle right so maybe actually facilitating a feedback loop can be helpful with this because sometimes people don't want to ask for feedback because they're afraid of being shamed or blamed hello I mean who wants that right so first of all I think when you are doing that you want to really ask yourself what is it that you're really trying to assess and move towards as a vision that you're building together and so in saying I I have a vision of making this institution or this new play development program or whatever a place where people can really grow and like whatever if you agree that vision can you help me get there and then you're really pointing towards the shared vision as opposed to like please attack me or what I didn't do well enough where we're not having a shared vision about so I think like in any kind of feedback loop like what is actually the thing that you are around what are you actually trying to create together and do together and then how can you be very specific about how to move that forward so that it's like it's not about it taking it personally it's about oh that's not moving forward because of this because oh I said something that trip them up oh I can actually continue my movement towards our shared vision and correct accordingly right so that it's less about attacks and more about constructive understanding of what is thank you so much for that anyone else yeah nice to have been here oh my goodness man that is so wonderful I love that I love the contribution framework the shared vision framework and I've been I've been thinking about that a lot you know because I'll be honest I'll be vulnerable here I have a I have a a complicated relationship with accountability as somebody who is always going to be the first of something in my role right well so whether I'm the I'm the first person of color in in the roles that I do or the first South Asian in the roles that I do or the first Sri Lankan immigrant in the role that I do I will always be first and that comes with that comes with a thing right that of of of both responsibility and a mindfulness for those who will come after me because as much as we might want to deconstruct that pressure right people people are looking at you as that first and wondering you know should we have gone with that first and what what in my mind would mean for those who have come at me with those identities do I have a responsibility to keep that door open for them I do but with that pressure of you know not making mistakes right because I am the first and so then looking into accountability absolutely I'm making mistakes left and right but but reconciling with them and being open and transparent about them has not just implications for me and my team here but it has implications for the society that we're in that is that is judging us and judging me as the first or the only to have had this this role and and looking for reasons why why why they should not make this choice in the future right and that and that comes back to you know not just not just my you know traditional identity Marcus is just it's also the fabric of who I am and so again being vulnerable you know I get criticisms for being us being slow being a slow thinker I am a slow thinker my brain is like in you know some thick molasses in the middle of winter sometimes I move that slow and it creates challenges for for those around me and it has taken me years to even introduce the concept that that maybe that's not a flaw maybe that's just me and the shared contribution that I've made and offered is maybe with that element of me which is not something wrong it just means we have to find a different creative way to move forward so that I don't have to fix something in myself that is not fixable it is just me but we now need a different path that maybe because of racism nobody else has tried before right and we have to figure out that path where you have somebody who is a slow thinker working in a team of highly fast thinkers to chart a path forward so that we can all be like we are growing and taking care of each other right so so thinking in terms of like there's not something wrong with me it's that I'm different and it's okay to be different and now let's talk about accountability again I think beautifully with that shared vision in my shared contribution in my what can we all do together moving forward not with not with that shame of blame I think for me you're over there sorry I just pointed to you on my screen but I think that's it for me first of all sorry before I go forward I would really love to fight whoever is calling you slow how dare they that is so rude and absolutely to uncall for in every context but I think that what you're offering of like you know how do how do we ask these systems to change to hold us in our truth and in our fullness instead of trying to bend who we are as producers as artistic communities socially to those those powerful forces right I think that when I when I think about the question how do we address harm when it happens it's actually not about think it's not about like okay as it happens let me walk you through what I do it's actually I think to me that question is what are the systems that we ask of each other to create so that when harm happens we all feel comfortable dealing with it and I I know that I have a deep and when you were talking about um you know facilitator know thyself producer know thyself when I enter a community I should I'm I will like as transparently as possible tell you so much that you need to know about how I work and how I move in space and and share because I want you to know how I would like to relate to you and also ask you and invite you how would you like to relate to me I think that we need to have many more clearer conversations something just broke in my living room don't know if you heard that um uh I think we have need to have many more clearer conversations about how we would like to be in relationship with one another and we really don't I know that right now again in my freelance world I have many asks coming in from theater institutions asking me to like build community agreements with a team or a staff and I think that um there's part of me that's like uh wow these like little woohoo things like that would systems that we call on but actually I find community agreement so helpful it is a system of accountability it is a way it is ways of being that we all have said this is how we would like to relate and to work and collaborate together and it therefore allows us to to um to do the self-regulating uh that you're talking about hope that is so necessary as we as we get back in person as we relate to each other generally um and I really just yeah just really understood that that was the thing I wrote down was understanding it and um agreeing to ways of relating to one another yep I just wanted to add I agree with everything that everybody said it's wonderful to hear these things and it speaks to the uh value of communication and trust in building a culture of care um you know it you know it's funny uh the we produce theater to tell stories uh but to get to the point of telling stories to the audience we also have to tell stories amongst ourselves as a as the community that's creating the piece uh the artistic piece I should say um um when we tell those stories and when we openly communicate it leads to a greater sense of understanding amongst the community and allows people to approach situations with a perspective they not they wouldn't have necessarily approached it before when they hadn't heard your story um and I think that's uh key to everything that's being said and the idea of building this culture of care I'm so grateful for all of that accountability is a really it's a really challenging thing particularly uh I'll reference back to the beginning when it's like talking about how the conversation amongst like if the five of us were just having a conversation together I imagine it would actually look a little different than what we are having right now because we assume a mixed audience right but when we talk about how to BIPOC folks take accountability how do folks who sit at other intersections of marginality as queer folks as trans folks as disabled folks right how do they take accountability within systems that are uh not only oppressing them but in in many unfortunate occasions seeking to make it harder to uh for them to succeed right not giving them systems of support and care um that's that looks a little bit different than the accountability um processes that one might expect if they sit in as many buckets of privilege and majority representation um as a white abled cis man you know heterosexual like all of those the more you go to the majority the different I think kind of really looks different um but I also feel very strongly about um we all hold places of power and we also hold places where we don't have power and in the in the positions where I hold power in the spaces or the resources that I manage if they have power over others um it is essential for me to remain accountable to folks so um just to offer a couple of ways in which that looks what that looks like for me um uh budget transparency with artists is a big one for me giving an opportunity for feedback um an opportunity for me to have missed something for me to like be wrong about how their needs need to be supported um for instance like to also speak to if folks are coming here from like really large institutions you may be like wow the producer is way too removed to have all this like accountability and connection to community first of all I might challenge that and say why um but the second thing I would say is you know use all the resources I have my company management office do a lot of like the artist care and doing regular check-ins and facilitating feedback loops to ensure that we are constantly checking on the care of artists um I'm in the space I'm a face I'm not just an email address and a human who set who's on a contact sheet somewhere as like a line of support right I'm I'm looking outside of a transactional relationship I'm looking for a relational connection with folks um so to last for the accountability there and then I have um I have peers at my organization who I regularly ask for feedback from um and that's really critical to my process um folks who can hold affinity space with me and call me in to account as well um so I just wanted to share that we have so many questions in the chat which makes my heart just glow because that tells me that we are speaking some truths that resonate to folks and that's what you want I also know we're coming near the end of our time so I'm challenged to pick only one question I kind of feel like that's realistically all we have time for um I'm going to go with this question about um the ways in which a producer can support coming into a community how can one assess needs and create real tangible outlets of support basically where do you start so I want to connect that with one other question that came in earlier which was like um uh coming in post COVID too there was a there was a question earlier about how do we help folks who may not even know what boundaries are yet so let's let's talk a little bit more maybe in some tangible terms now because I believe we've been doing a lot of like heart centered talking which is important but let's maybe offer some resources here around what community care can look like especially if folks um you know are learning boundary setting we're all still I I gosh I don't even know what boundaries are sometimes um so I'd love to hear from folks about that and then I'll give us a quick closeout question and we'll break I would love to jump in first because I have an observation for my own work um as I've been asked to like come in and facilitate and do community agreements um as we're in person again specifically and I I think we have had the opportunity to go and facilitate folks in person as well and I can speak I think of my observation of community and also my own experience is that yeah we have we have forgotten how to gather we have forgotten how to gather nobody knows how to interact with each other anymore we have and I we've almost almost not quite but almost been like factory reset and I think that there's a lot of excitement in that for me for instance I'll speak for myself I my my patience for whiteness for white mediocrity um for white power it's just so miniscule it's so miniscule and I have lost my white people filter to not just pop on somebody if they say something out of pocket similarly I I feel like I've found so so much me in isolation just so much me that I refuse to keep in this little tiny New York apartment like I want to be as me as possible with all of you beautiful humans in the world in my work that is so it is important to me that when I when I step into my workplace I am not just worker producer but I am Sam I am brown I am queer I am non-binary I am gender I am like coming come from like a poor background like all of these things like they're a part of me and I I I would be remiss for my for my own sake not to show up with all of that and what a gift to be lost by everybody else um so I think that as we when I think about like serving each other it's really um going back to asking for new ways of being and like being adamant like sitting in our integrity being adamant about what our boundaries are and instead of instead of just resubscribing to white supremacist ways of being doing what we all are speaking about here like truly just taking a moment to breathe through something ask the question say no you will not have my hours past x time anymore you know I think that we I know that at least for myself I'm coming back with a lot more fortitude to be able to do that and I think that that that fortitude collectively is what it will take to create the systemic change within the industry um so offering each other grace um and the opportunity to like meet those boundaries in the moment and say oh I no longer want this to be a way that I work and then pausing for giving us enough time to say great yes so how do we move and build forward with that with that attitude in mind with that need in mind instead of again going back to how we were operating before um as far as um some when I when I think of tangible actions of when you're coming you're coming into a community as a producer um obviously first you have to identify the you have to identify the holes identify where harm is coming from identify where destructive processes are and that is you know that goes back to communication and that you know starts with communicating with the community creating the platform for them to speak out about uh what they feel is wrong and that'll you know make sure they don't fear fear the idea of what's saying what quote unquote the wrong thing especially because in communities of color silence is violence often um and so if as a producer you're coming into a community and you feel like you can just come in and change things based on what you know you're not participating faithfully you're just assuming things and that's paternalism um so when you uh when you come in I did uh identify the issues with the community and build from there that's always the first step and just uh be honest and humble about you know where you're coming from what your perspective is don't act don't act like you're something that you're not you know uh you have to you have to know your limitations in in in triaging or uh building a building a community and then everything you say you've got to back it up you know don't don't pay lip service to don't pay lip service to community you'll lose the community everything you say back it up with some tangible action yeah those are places those those are the those are the things I think of when it comes to coming into a community as a producer and trying to change the culture or trying to better the culture I um I'll be honest you know the the the big challenge here is is still the covid piece um and um uh on top of that uh within that the the actual real challenge is not the covid piece but it's um it's the anti-racist covid piece right such that right covid is is a dominating factor in in our planning and um constantly evolving right from week to week still and it is not going to go away anytime soon um but how we approach it that has to be different right um but it is challenging us because it is uh uh inviting us seducing us to lean into every single bad past practice that we've had in how we address major challenge right it's like you know every situation um you know the the 1415 characteristics of white supremacy is like we're we're leaving into that to solve how are you going to do masks um uh for our community and social distancing and and vaccinations and vaccination attestations um and and dealing with the guests coming in and out uh and rights and privileges you know we are we are we are we're being invited to lean back into all of those bad past practices um and how we do so in an anti-racist way I think um uh that is the real that is the real task at hand um because they're they're they're I I generally believe I believe in that framework that they're we're dealing with twin pandemics right the COVID-19 and the COVID-19 pandemic right you know and um it is it is up to us to um move up to I think what what what Sam so beautifully brought into the space of to actually be different you know I'm I am different now after last year um but it's up to me to remain different and not get sucked back into into that that that pre-COVID more racist structures and systems and thinking that I also had so so we have to challenge ourselves as we go through COVID planning continuing with that but how we also do that in an anti-racist manner and not just lean on the previous techniques we've had before I don't know about oh go ahead Denzel uh I was going to quickly say um thank you for sharing that Sheminda uh really speaks to me the idea of leading with empathy uh when you approach when you approach these things you know COVID and so devastating and destructive to you know people's health both physically and mentally how we operate as a society and we talk about how we're falling back on old habits to try and solve it you know it seems like COVID hit and the first thing one of the first things that got thrown by the wayside in terms of thinking about economics was the arts artistic organization so on and so forth uh you know it's not it we arts organizations already have it hard enough as it is in my opinion to to prove to everybody to prove to the world in general that we are essential um and so it's you're falling falling COVID hit and now we're falling back on the habit of thinking uh the arts the arts aren't essential um when it when in reality it affects such a large intersection of our society um everybody's connected to the arts the arts isn't separate from arts the arts aren't separate from capitalism the arts aren't some uh luxury of society um so yeah just remembering to lead with empathy when coming into an organization and don't fall back on habits of saying well what are my goals for coming in and doing this is my goal to make money if that's your goal you shouldn't be coming into the community to do that anyway you're you know you should be expecting to expend resources um and you just have to be as a producer you have the or potential changemaker you have to truly believe in what you're doing and come in with the right reasons that's absolutely right Denzel um and just to share my own response to the question I would say um the thing that's hard about this to answer in a straightforward way is that it's about creating a culture and a culture as Emergent Strategy teaches us is an iteration of small things right it's it is the act of all it's these fractals it's all of these little things that create an environment that create a culture so it's really I think the accumulation of you know you're in a zoom meeting with your pre you know having a pre-production check-in for the first time with your artistic team and you offer your name and your pronouns you ask everyone to share their pronouns it's an opportunity a reflection that you're not making assumptions about people um it's asking about access needs it's about letting folks know about those options like Mayen said you know everyone should know we're going to have a community care consultant who's going to be able to speak with you if you ever have any needs throughout this process here's the form where you let us know if you need access to childcare or to uh you know mental health care or anything like that here's the resources that we have to offer if there's something not on this list that you need please be sure to speak out to X person right um it's it's about the accumulation of all of those little things it's about creating moments of check-in whether that's you know your company manager your production folks whether that's you going into the space on a regular basis and just you know finding folks on break it's that it's creating that culture of availability of access of flattening some hierarchies to make sure that information is readily available creating a culture where folks get answers and resources so that they learn to trust I often say that my favorite thing is actually being called into accountability and told something doesn't work because that signals to me that people trust me not only to receive that information with enough grace but they're telling me because they probably think I'm going to try to do something about it so I actually don't see it as a failure that I get now more than even at the beginning of my time at Longworth critical feedback offering ways in which we can change and we can grow and we can expand because that tells me the systems are working and I have helped successfully create a culture that allows for feedback that allows people to feel safe enough to say what their needs are and what they want in the process so it's hard to say what exactly to do to create that community of care but if you're if you have that internal awareness and you're offering your your team the resources I think to learn how to begin to create these channels racism doesn't just show up as in someone using an offensive term on somebody right it's the assumptions we make about what people need and how people ought to be treated and everything we do can be questioned as man offered for us in the beginning and Sam shared this with us during our prep as well like the beauty of being a producer is that we can change so many things we can change almost all of it not necessarily alone but we can change anything we want to so why not always ask ourselves that question of why are we doing this and who does it benefit so I want to thank you all so much as panelists for being here for attendees is watching I hope that this is a valuable resource I will not speak for everyone but I will say as myself I'm available as a human in the world and eager to continue having these conversations and being in relationship and being in service of this ecosystem and I imagine the panelists are eager to be resources as well so just thank you all and if you want to share a parting like shout out folks if you have something you want to plug if you want to say anything as we close I'll give you a moment to do that and then we'll we'll peace out I took so many notes from what you all said I just I think I got more out of this than I was able to contribute so thank you thank you thank you thank you playwrights around thank you to all of you so much love and honor to be to be invited to be here today and let's stay in touch and those listening please feel free to reach out as well yeah I'm just going to quote Sheminda we are not alone you are not alone and we're in it together thank you I agree and echo all of the gratitude I am like so hungry for more truly which I think is a great place to leave is that I feel like we've just barely touched the surface of where this conversation can go and I'm grateful to now be in community with so many beautiful people I'm who I already was and and newly people and want to bring you forward to the community that's watching feel I'm on the internet find me scoop me up while I'm hot and I do really just hope to continue this conversation with all of you in some way I think that producers institutionally speaking like you're pretty isolated there's often just like us either a tiny producing department or one person who's like has that title of producer and I think that this kind of cross collaboration and coalition and cross institutional relation building is so so vital to the future of our field so thank you all for your thoughts and your wisdom and your knowledge I'm truly grateful for being a part of this and thank you for inviting me this is actually my first public panel usually I'm behind the scenes you know writing questions and prepping it so it was an honor to be a part of this and I hope to be a part of many more yes all right beautiful humans thank you all for your time your labor your insight your wisdom your everything thank you for bringing your full selves I'll see you later