 So how does it, like, five years old? Six. Six. For the South Burlington City Council meeting of Tuesday, February 19th, 2019. And we'll begin with the Pledge of Allegiance. Megan, you want to start that, please? Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Item two is instructions on exiting the building case of emergency. If we have heard this tonight, no one here that hasn't heard this 20 times. You guys have heard this. Okay. Leave that way. You can't leave that way. Go that way. There we go. If you can't go. That's true. Thank you very much. Okay. Agenda review, are there any additions, deletions, or changes in the order of any of the agenda items? I have one item for other business. Okay. Which would be to talk about your reorganization meeting. Okay. And I have one item, two, and if we get really late, we don't have to discuss it, but if some of you recall, I had promised that we would have a retreat, and we would, you know, talk about processing things, and I got busy, and we got busy, and it hasn't happened yet. So I want to be the counsel to find out if that still is of interest and if it is, what topics they might like to retreat about. Okay. And I apologize. It took me so long to get to that. I guess I do have an item. I'm sorry. Oh, okay. Yes. That's okay. Following up on Monica Aspie's request that we look into the, oh no, the letter of support for, yeah, I read that today and I thought, ooh, we haven't talked about that. Yeah. Okay. And then the legislature seems to be picking this up to some degree, so. Is this the bracket? Yes. Yes, to support the, yeah, yeah, and, and to be a little more active on racism, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. And harassment, I think it was harassment. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. All right. Item four is a possible executive session to receive legal advice from the city attorney relating to possible legal claims involving the city. Yes. I'd like to move that the council make a specific finding that premature general public knowledge of confidential attorney client communications made for the purpose of providing professional legal services to the council regarding possible legal challenges to propose charter amendments to which the public body may be a party, would clearly place the council in the city at a substantial disadvantage. You should do radio commercials, you know, second, except I have to really concentrate to get everybody second. Okay. All in favor? Aye. Aye. David, did you vote? Aye. And having so found, I now move that the council enter into executive sessions for the purpose of discussing the matter identified in the previous motion. Second. Second. All in favor? Aye. I'll be inviting in Kevin, Kevin Dorn, Tom Hubbard and Andrew Bullduck. Why don't we do number five for us? There's nobody here. Then we can come back. Some people might have read this and, yeah, David, would you like a second heart? I have some at home. I got one here. You got one? Well, thank you. Helen has cookies here. Yeah, some cookies. Going back to Latin. Tom is home with some family stuff. Not the champagne. Not the champagne. See you in a bit. This is a 15 minute. Okay. Great. Yeah, there may not be any cookies when you get back. All right, I would like to call back into order the South Burlington City Council meeting Tuesday, February 19th, 2019. And we move on to number five comments and questions from the public. And seeing none, we'll move on to number six announcements and the city manager's report. So Megan, would you like to start? I don't have anything to report other than you also, I wrote the councilor corner that came out. I'll send you a note on that. That was crystal clear. Yeah. Very good. Very good. So you reposted it on the neighborhood watch or was it? I'm not allowed to, but I think somebody did. I think some, yeah. Oh, okay. Because it was, it was really excellent. Thank you so much. Okay. David, what do you send out a note? Well, it's been two weeks since we met. That's a rarity. Tweezers. You don't have anything on the foundation? Oh. Or is that? I just, I can talk just briefly about that because there's been a lot of correspondence on it. The, you know, the recreation foundation, Jennifer Corkman has been working really hard. And I think we'll see, we'll see some of that reflected in this week's paper to bring out the vote positively for the 1% local options tax. And you know, and, and she was interested in my, my reaction as the foundation. I copied this to you guys. That, you know, I see that the foundation's role really comes after a traditional financing has been after, after plans in place, after there's a design, when the time comes and the things and got, got more momentum. And I think that's, that's really all there is to report. I think I worded it reasonably okay in what, in what you guys read. And I just said, we'll, you know, keep our fingers crossed and see what the vote does. And because we've got two members of the foundation anyway, um, um, Dan O'Rourke and Mike and, and, uh, John Bickler, who are adamantly opposed to any more taxes, period. Um, you know, and Dan O'Rourke's comments where I didn't realize this was a role of the foundation. And I sent an email back and said, really, it's really not. Um, I just tried to clarify where it was getting a little fuzzy there. It's, you know, we'll, we'll see where we go with this. And, uh, you know, if the voters say yes, well, then things will, you know, maybe we can pick up a little speed and, and get, uh, and get closer to a final plan and financing package. We still got to get through the legislative body. And that's not going to be an easy step. I guess. So how are the foundation members selected? We call arbitrarily volunteer. Yeah, it's just my, the council didn't have anything to do with it. Nor the recreation and parks committee. They had a couple of recommendations. I mean, um, um, Jennifer sits on the, because she's chair of the recreation and parks committee and then Holly, because she's the director of recreation myself. I think Mike Semino is on it. Um, and then there's a, what's her name? She's head of, uh, she's a leader in athletics in Burlington, high school. Jeannie Holson. Jeannie Holson. Jeannie Holson. Jeannie Holson. And then, um, lives in my neighborhood, um, Linda Norris and, uh, one or two others. People who, people who are enthusiastic about recreation in the city and want to, and recognize the desperate need for internal recreation space. Interestingly, total sideline. I'll share with you in my entrepreneurship class, the students have to develop business plans. I've got Ernie Duncan in, in that class. And, uh, so what he wants to do is build an indoor recreation facility focused on basketball, obviously, to get youth more engaged in basketball. He and the guys working with, did a great presentation in class today. They said, we're not sure how much it's going to cost. Well, what they presented with no help from me at all was virtually exactly the plans we've seen. Oh, good. Well, keep them working on it. I said, I said, keep going on it. We might be able to put it to use in South Burlington, and here's what's going to cost. But, you know, it's just, and their, their take was, there's nothing like that in this region, in this area, and it's desperately needed. So, I mean, somehow, some way, we got to pay for this. Whether it's, whether it's this way or we have to find something else. Well, we have a library foundation that was developed similarly, not through the council appointing people, but just the library board identifying individuals who are interested. There actually wasn't the cause, because I think they did the library foundation to participate in getting the vote out of the library. So that, I think that's. Well, they're, they're a very dedicated specific group. We don't have a, we don't have. Right. No, I meant, I meant just the selection of the members. I understand they were very helpful. We'll see where the vote goes. Yeah. That was interesting aside. It was kind of fun. Yeah, that's great. It's one of the rare times I see her in any class. I saw him on the court. He did very well. That's where he usually is. Yeah. I went to a TDR meeting, which was like, I think it was the two nights after we had our last council meeting. Oh, that's right. And the other one, the tag is back in South Africa. So he assumed the role of chair. I stepped down for being the interim chair and we made some progress and we're meeting tomorrow night. I also took an initiative and visited the Burlington Tech Center on Saturday because they had. And I went because I went to the, oh, I forgot to say, I went to the better buildings by design conference and stopped in at their public. When they opened the exhibition to the public, right. They had a second day on the Thursday. And I just randomly stopped at this company where they do design build for industrial applications and they had done a couple breweries. And he was going through a slideshow and I said, stop because there was a guy welding in their shop. And I go, how do you get people to weld new employees? He just held his head is in his hands and said, we can't get people to weld. We need employees that know how to weld. So I had heard a story from a friend at work about their son going through the Burlington Tech Center, going to weld, going to blodget, going to mechanical. So when I saw this was open, I decided to go. So I went and I was impressed because I've never been a welding teacher before. It's a pretty good facility and they do 11th and 12th graders. And then the Tech Center had a bunch of other information about programs within the state trying to get kids on that track early enough, right. And get them to that program and then the businesses that have hooks into those kids to pull them along further when they graduate, right. And so I spent probably half an hour in the shop with Bob Cooleyard who's the head teacher there and got some demos and some of the stuff. It was really cool. So what does a welder make? What's an average salary for a welder? I don't know but I think it's pretty good. You know, after you get some experience from that. Is one of these new issue or it shouldn't be, at least their lawyer was well aware that this would be an issue that they would have to address. So I thought that was helpful for me because I think and encouraging because I suspect that will be his legal counsel when he discusses this with the school board. And I think that is helpful to finding a resolution sooner rather than later. So anyway, so I think, you know, we keep chatting. I also met with the city manager of the news because Seth has resigned as mayor Seth Leonard and they don't have a new one. I guess they even in a room but she came and we met with Miro Weinberg and we have we meet every two months kind of when we talk about gas flood. Airport issues. And so he's interested. They're working on the survey was an internal survey. No, Burlington. It isn't finalized yet yet. And it's sort of their take on the advantages or disadvantages and how they stand on the. Internal to the city, although I'm not sure it includes the city council, but I think it's the administrative and of course the airport. And if I were to, if I were a betting woman, I would bet that they will not be in favor, but he does seem more amenable to discussing further. Some better ways for Winooski and South Burlington to be involved in some of the decision making with the airport. Because I did note to him and he's been on the airport commission that there really is. It's more rubber states. We do discuss things and you can raise issues. And they're very good about asking me about what are the South Burlington issues and we will they have we have on the agenda for tomorrow. The the both the taxes. But, you know, there really isn't any power to do anything differently. And many sort of agreed with that and thought that potentially there's a opportunity to change that not to go back to the way it used to be with a standing commission that had a lot of power like the police commission in Burlington. They had a whole commission form of government and they became little fiefdoms in a way. But so I'm hoping that we can arrive at something and maybe submitting the made a submitting her legislation has really gotten their attention. So I'm hoping we can use that. Well, it's not like regionalization doesn't back 35 years, you know, to study. Yeah, you were on. Yeah. Back in 1984. Right. Well, you know, that's a reoccurring bad dream. So how does the airport impact Burlington? Everything that the airport does and is all about impacts, etc. is all South Burlington coming to this. The planes take off and land over Winooski, not Burlington. Yeah. So where is Burlington? In fact, they somehow end up owning the place. We sold it to them. Who did? You've been sold it to them. How many years ago? 1920s. A little over 100 years. Yeah. Nothing like hindsight. So anyway, so the reality is all the impacts of the airport for the most part are on South Burlington and Burlington homes. And that's where we're stuck. And they can't see that. Well, it's interesting because from my perspective, I had suggested that maybe several counselors from South Burlington could meet with several counselors from Winooski and several counselors from Burlington to sort of discuss some of these issues from our own perspectives to give some understanding by the council members in Burlington because I don't think they pay much attention to it because they don't need to. It's just kind of a report that comes in and, you know, Jean's doing a good job and, you know, landings are up and revenues are up. So it's not in the financial place it was 10 years ago. But Moreau wasn't ready to go that far. Well, it's quite a curious situation because they pay very little attention to a multi-multi-million dollar facility that they happen to own that, oh, it's going okay. And that's, I mean. Yeah. It would be a whole lot easier for them if they just became a regional. So they actually make any money out of this. No, they can't take money out of it. They can get some indirect that pays for the legal and the police and that kind of stuff. Sure. But if it was regional, they wouldn't be paying for that. So they really have no solid ground to stand on. Well, they do have the financial liability, I guess. So several, 10 years ago, maybe, when it was, they were really having trouble financially. Burlington would have been on the hook for whatever costs that were owed because there were a lot of paper on, you know, they were spending or building things on the. Well, whatever, that's, I'm just reporting, that's, you know, kind of where I see it. So I don't think it's a totally lost argument and perhaps some changes can be made that really at least incorporate the cities that are impacted with some of the decisions that the airport makes. We'll be happy to chat with those folks. So we'll, I'll keep you posted. Mind my business. No disclosure matters. April now? Yes. That, I don't know. What I've been told and I guess I just have to believe it at its value. Information, the FAA needed some additional information from the airport and I think the Air Force as well. And then they had the shutdown, the government shutdown, so they couldn't complete the study. So now they're back up. Hopefully there won't be another shutdown and they're estimating April. So we'll see. And the last F16 should be leaving next month, April. Yeah. Now it's April, because they said March and then for six months, no planes. Right. And then September, the first one to come. That'll be six months of no. Well, it's not quite six months. If the last one leaves in April. To September. The new one's coming September. Yeah. There isn't. Okay. Do you want to talk about, do you want to talk about the meeting with Linda? Oh, yes. That was wonderful. Yeah. So Megan and I and Kevin met with Linda McGinnis, who I guess in a prior life, she was on the World Bank and lived all over the world. And she's an economist. And we asked her to meet with us. And I wanted Megan there because this cost analysis piece of the IZ was really something that Megan really pushed and wrote. So we were talking her brain about what are some of the questions? What are the things to be thinking about to incorporate in that study so that it would be meaningful? And she was just a fountain of information and apparently UVM and what's his name? State. I don't remember his name. Well, anyway, there's a there's a professor at UVM and there's like a whole team of them who did a report for the state that looked at. A genuine progress indicator. Yes. A genuine progress indicator and statewide. And she thought that that could be the basis of some of our work and potentially we might be able to find them or some money or interest to take that study and focus on a community, South Burlington, which is one of the few communities, if not the only one in the state who is experiencing growth and looking to manage development versus come on down. Have we got open space for you? And so it was just very exciting. Do you have anything else to add? I think that was really good. Yeah. No, she was she was wonderful. And she's also willing to, you know, help us a little bit. She won't do the study because she is overwhelmed. But I think she agreed to maybe look at the RFP as we develop it to give some feedback and to make sure that we really are including everything. Where did she go? Oh, she was obviously. And she was really adamant, I think, about how important including the sort of financial pluses for having open space. And in terms of wastewater management or stormwater management, the ecology of the community that there are lots of indicators that have been developed, I guess, by academics that really can help us say quantify that there really is positive financial value in having open space. And in addition to the natural benefits of it, she also said that it attracts, right, home buyers who are eager to find an area where they have access to open space and at all income levels, right? But she said it's important for us to think about the place for the high-end homes that we have in our community and what that value is based on. And if it is based on being, you know, backing up on an open space area, we have to think about that as an asset to the community. So that was also something that she really focused on. And she said, you know, she might not live adjacent to an open field. Just a few blocks away, she sees that open field as an asset that she can take advantage of. So she may not be paying the same rates, but she's, you know, her rates. So the rates- Her taxes do reflect that. Do reflect that proximity to that area. So she said it's awesome with regard to the tax base. And I thought that was, yeah. It was just really, it was really interesting. So what's the follow-up on that? There's a lot. So I've got to get, I've got to reach out to UVM and also the Vermont VNRC and the Smart Growth Collaborative. Yeah, yeah. And get their materials as well. And I tried to find it and I could, but anyway, try to get our arms around this study. And hopefully the UVM team that got a dozen economists working on this stuff will be able to advise us on the best way to go about doing this. Because the legislature paid for that original study. For, you know, statewide. So are we supposed to have that study done within the nine months? Optimally. Optimally, but it might not be. It's going to be hard to come to a final conclusion on the results of our interim zoning without the study. Right, right. But we're trying to assure everybody we wouldn't go beyond nine months. So let me see if- I'm going to pull that off. Well, we have to contact that professor. I'm pulling up the documents now. We should. We should. It's really pretty interesting. It's not fascinating. Yeah. So anyway. All right. And Managers Report. Just a couple things. I reached out to Colonel Smith of the Air National Guard about having him come in and update us on the PFOA issues as you had discussed a meeting or so ago. And it looks like your meeting on March 18th would be the night that he and his environmental team would come in. I don't see organization. But we get someone. You're not here on that. Eric Zensi is the UVM. So we should contact him. And are we getting someone from the state? To do the- To discuss that too? They worked with somebody at Department of Environmental Conservation and Dave was reaching out to that person to see if he could attend that night as well. Dave is Colonel Smith. Colonel Smith. And what about Larry? Can't think of his last name. The operations manager I think is his title or director. Larry Light. Yeah. At the airport. Because when they were doing all that building this summer, they did build some huge catchment systems. Oh yeah. You know. Stormwater. But this is the PFOA's runoff, right? Isn't it runoff the- It's in the groundwater. Yes. But it goes into the groundwater. But if you have it caught by something, then it doesn't go into the groundwater. I don't know. I can get him. I will reach out. I think it might be related. It would be good to know if it is. If they think that's the solution and that it's been built. Or if it's not the solution, it's something else. We'll try and get all three represented. This is the 18th. The 18th? Yeah. Is the date we would do that. And if that doesn't work for somebody, let me know. Dave's already said he can't be here. But also this past week I met with our dispatch team just to update them on where the regional dispatch effort stands and to get feedback. We've replaced the initial consultant with another consultant from the same company. And so that set us back a little bit. But they will be in on the 26th and begin their work, the consultants. Several of us- Anything we know about there with regards to the replacement or dispatch team feedback? The dispatch team is still struggling trying to understand why we should be doing this. They also had some very good input as to what the things are that the consultant should be looking at. The initial consultant, frankly, is that individual came in and met with dispatch teams from all over and did not have a good rapport with them. We'll just leave it at that. And so we asked that a new dispatcher or a new consultant come in. And actually two of them will now take on the project, including one person who's spent a career in dispatch. Tom, I think was in this- No, you were- Paul and Justin and I met with the folks from Bike Share this past week. I was here for that. That was a good meeting. Yep. When was that? That was- You were back, so that's all. Got you a bike. That's Thursday. That's Thursday. Okay. And they're talking about electric bikes and they're also talking now about scooters. And so they will be meeting with the bike and pedestrian committee soon and be talking with the bike and ped committee and then the bike and ped committee. I'm sure we'll have discussion with the council coming out of that meeting about the future of Bike Share in South Burlington. Well, the thing we have to keep in mind is I really think it's for the hill in Burlington, too. I mean, that's- For what? The hill in Burlington, the electric- The scooter, yeah. Electric. We'll help, yeah. And lastly, recall- Your next meeting is the joint meeting with the school board the night before- Oh, that's right. So on the fourth, in all likelihood, we'll be meeting over at the Tuttle Middle School cafeteria as you have in years past and that will be a budget briefing. And then there's been a candidate forum in the past. Afterwards, I don't know where that stands. I mean, I don't- What's the charge of that? What is- Nobody really- I can reach out to Vince. If you want to do it. But Vince had canceled the debate. Right. So- The debate? The debate. Well, I think in the past, there hasn't been any differences. What we've had is, whenever the candidates are, have a few minutes, like five minutes, and just- Talk. Talk. Share. Yeah, give a statement, you know, project what you think are the issues, that kind of stuff. You can do that. Oh, yeah. I'm scheduling. Well, I think we could schedule that as part of the agenda. We would have our city meeting in town about the budgets and then adjourn, and then you guys could each have five minutes and- I mean, it's- It's- Since, sir, I don't even know if Mr. Davis will be there tonight. Right. But it gives you an opportunity in the public- To address the public. Yeah. I think we had five minutes last year. Yeah. It's good for the people to see the representatives here from the- Yeah. Here you make your case. So we'll just make sure that's part of the agenda. Yeah. It won't be a debate, I don't think. It just is, you have five minutes to- And if you want more, we can probably structure more. Maybe one comment? Yeah. In addition to- You may. Kevin's talk about the dispatch. So did you catch the VPR segment they did on the need for regionalization for emergency medical services in some of the outlying towns? Yes. Oh. Well, it's been written up. They're just like- They're short on people. They need to do something drastic in order to maintain the coverage, you know, because some ambulance service just went out of business, you know, because they just don't have enough people or money. So I think this is another one of those examples, right, where realizations are going to help with efficiencies. Yep. I agree too. Well, and me to- An absence of providers. Right, there might not be anybody to dispatch. That's true. Well, but look how many EMR- Or there might be driving- We have. We have to get there, which is like a really bad scenario, you know. Okay. Reports from counselors on committee assignments. I'll just very briefly, channel 17 met. Tomorrow is- What do they call it? Legislative day for nonprofits. They'll be there. They actually are going to ask the- As an entire group, not just channel 17. The legislature for a small amount of money. Some cast funding that funds all of the public access television across the state has gone down because it's related to subscribers and people are using Netflix and other things and not buying cable so that dollar figure has gone down. So everyone is in a financial quandary. So they're looking for- They're going to ask- Actually, they're not asking for money. They're going to ask for a summer study. And to really think about, so how else can we have public access if funding from Comcast isn't there to support it to the extent and how important it is, that kind of stuff. We also are embarking on some really helpful ways to raise money to make up the deficit. And- Can we give a deficit? Well, we have several hundred thousand dollars in the Vermont Community Foundation. But we had to withdraw 60,000 last year to do some infrastructure issues that we needed to do. So it wasn't operating budget, but it was the capital improvement that is important. But you only can go so many times and take out 60,000 dollars and then poof, it's all gone. So we're looking at ways to really make a case for more public support. And one of the ways they've embarked on that I think has been pretty successful and will continue to build on it is to really improve and make more meaningful and helpful to the public. Some of the candidate forums and some of the issues that are before the public. So the public can use that as a way to become informed on a lot of the issues and not just have a candidate's debate. Because I think, I mean, just looking nationally on some of the issues around the media, it's really important. And this seems to be becoming more and more important to have a place where people can go and really get the information they need. If you aren't willing to settle for Facebook, Twitter, all those kinds of ways of receiving information. So that was kind of the gist of our conversation. Any other committee? Tom isn't here. I do. The IZ Committee. Oh, yeah. Okay, great. We met two weeks ago and we are putting together our kind of categories, prioritizing categories for analyzing or assessing the value of land and open space. And so we're going to be pooling those responses at our meeting tomorrow, which is tomorrow night at 7 o'clock here in City Hall. And it's a great group of people. We don't have anything yet to report. We're just now in the building stages trying to put together the steps in order to get to our final goal, which is to have that list of prioritized lands. And TD, are you? Yeah. We're still discussing aspects of it. I think we've decided that we should produce a tax sheet that should be one of the deliverables from that committee, the two or three or four page. Hopefully not much more than that, but something that really concise the details of what you don't know about TDRs. So how do they start? Where do they come from? Where do they have them even sold? Where do they go? Where do they come from? And then maps to help you understand that and maps to help you understand where they could go in the future. And that would just be in a base. And then the question is after that, what do we do? What sort of like suggestions do we make for future changes? We'll be meeting tomorrow at 7 o'clock at the police station. Great. Good. Okay. Charlie, let's me know that cctv.org on February 12th, they recorded a public forum on scooter bike share proposal for Barlington. So that was at Contoy's Auditorium. So if you go on cctv.org, you can see that public forum and learn about it that way. Thank you. Thanks, Charlie. Okay. Okay. Item eight, consent agenda. I would entertain a motion to approve, consider and sign disbursements in the minutes of January 7th and January 28th. Second. Okay. Any further discussion or any discussion? All in favor? Aye. Great. January 7th is in there. Okay. Item nine, I remember running a little bit late, but welcome, Ron. We have a presentation of our FY 18 audit. So Ron, you want to come forward? And Janice, you're going to just be here for any questions? And I'm sorry, I don't. I'm Josh. Josh. Okay. Josh Quaid. Quinn. Okay. Josh is the brains of the outfit. Oh, okay. And you're the face. I'm not sure what I am anymore, to be honest with you. Good evening. Good evening. So it's good to be here to present your 2018 audit. I'm certainly not going to go through 100 plus pages, but I'll hit all the highlights of it. The financial condition city improved from 2017 to 18 by about $40,000. You went north to a little more than $1.4 million of fund balance or surplus, you know, as we know it. And it's not a lot, but it's an improvement for sure. You know, based on a $23 million general operating, actually $24 million general operating budget, we like to see it 30, 60, 90 days, you know, of that, of that. And to put it in South Burlington terms in somewhere around 1.2, excuse me, 2.4, 4.6, $6.8 million in that range, lowest to highest, where are you at? A little over 15 days, about 17, 18 days, which is where you were last year. You know, maybe a day more. You know, so it's tight. You guys run tight, but it's here. There's certainly, you know, a lot of accuracy. And when you're running a $23 million budget, there's not a lot of room for error. And I think that for the past three or four years that we, you know, have been proud of these budgets, they've been tight. You know, you've returned, you know, some money back to the bottom line, which I think is really why you've been able to maintain your financial condition. So improvement, you know, is the way that I would do it. Anything helps, you know, certainly in this day and age. Some talking points. Under projection, there was a couple of charges for service, and I think in the highway department and police department, for what you had budgeted originally, they came in under budget. Another talking point would be your recreation department. Your enterprise fund, it's in about $100,000, and certainly you guys are aware of that, and there's a plan to come out of that. We support it. We certainly had a lot of conversations with Tom and Sue, you know, this past year about, you know, how, you know, what their plan was, how to address it, et cetera. And I think it's something that's closely being monitored and will continue to look at it, you know. But for now, I think that it's the right place and certainly the right time. And I think there's plenty of opportunities to bring that out of the hole. I just don't think it's going to happen all in one year. I think it's going to take a plan of three to five years, you know, that they have in place. So your TIF was in a full-blown swing this past year. One of the new things that you'll see, I believe, was about the $5 million issuance, you know, that you had for your bond proceeds that you came in here to fund the development of that. That basically starts the clock ticking by Vermont law for your TIF and completion and et cetera. You know, on that project, that's certainly something that by law we had to take a long look at, and the state's got like an eight-page compliance supplement where we look at the valuations, the sheltered values, and, you know, and things like that. You were well within compliance, you know, certainly, certainly of that. So I'd say that that's probably the biggest highlight financially, you know, out of this document. And certainly when we were first involved, I always got to tell that story, is that there were some financial lulls in dark days, you know, for the city of South Brownton. You've been able to maintain, and I think that that's a very positive thing. And the one thing that I'll say about this city is it's a busy city, and for what I understand happened most of July 1st, you're going to get busier, you know, for sure. And I think that that's all good things and opportunity for the city of South Brownton and everybody in it. So, and I am confident that you have the management and the understanding of what everybody does in that chair, in their chairs respectively, to give you good business information so you can make good business decisions. So there were some best practice matters that we issue to you in a management letter. There's some other things, incidental, that we talked to Tom and Sue, you know, about some things that, I don't think are anything major, just incidental things to take care of and cleaned up, and a lot of them have been already sales tax, things like that. Purchase orders are being addressed as we speak, you know, there's some, there can be some better best practices there for sure. There's no particular order to the letter that we had. A lot of your departments for project cost, you know, a lot of the billing and a lot of the arithmetic, you know, that comes out, you know, those departments to submit to whether it be the respective state agency to get reimbursed by the city, the finance department is disconnected from that process. And when we talk to Tom and Sue and they're well aware that there needs to be more connection there because there's a longer delay for you guys getting paid is the best way I can see it. You know, so I think if the finance department's involved, you know, and I don't think it's anything malicious, I think it's time. I mean, your department heads are busy, you know, for sure. And I think it's a function of time and I think that in talking with Tom and Sue about it, I think that there's some easy fixes and I think that the, you know, the finance department, if you're involved in connecting, you know, your repayment, you know, of the money that you're putting into some of these projects, you know, for sure. Budgets. There are budgets put together and the one that stands out to my mind, you know, the first is a paving budget. You know, from an outsider looking in and I don't want to minimize, you know, the public works department for sure, and that's not the intent of it. But from an outsider looking in, you know, we just question the process as far as what's being budgeted for paving, how it's being spent. But more importantly, some of the volume of the money that's being carried over from year to year, you know, for whatever reason that these projects aren't getting done, maybe the priority list has changed, et cetera. And if it wasn't such a big number, it could be as much as $700,000, you know, that gets carried for. I'm not sure that the conversation would have risen to the fact that I'm sitting here talking about it, but in talking to Tom and Sue, I think that they're aware of it. I think you're aware of it, you know, and that's something that I certainly think can be better practice, you know, with better budgeting. And if it's the fact, you know, that it's a project that gets delayed, then there should be some process in place that allows you to delay that and put a number on that where everybody knows. And it just looked like that the process could be better. And I think that that's something that we continue to work with you all on, you know, just being a sounding board on how you can do that process. And I would argue the same for stormwater, you know, as well. That's been a busy, you know, department as well. And I would say the same for that too. So in sort of layman's terms, if you want to use the $700 figure for the paving, is what you're saying in terms of the public understanding that it's a, that $700,000 that was not spent in, you know, FY 18, had been earmarked for X, Y, and Z. And for these reasons, it was not expended. But the anticipation is that it will be the next year. Is that the kind of? Correct. And sometimes it was taking up to two years, you know, to do those projects. And that's where, to me, that project starts to lose a little bit of its clarity to the point where I understand some of these projects got reprioritized. You know, so, and there's nothing wrong with that. But when you're talking that kind of a volume of numbers, and again, I don't think there's anything malicious that's going on. I just think it's clearly just point one. And, you know, what it's going to take to get through the year. Paving is a big part, you know, of who you are and what you're doing right now. But as far as that goes, we're more so concerned as the outlook of timing. I mean, the flavor, the identity, it's kind of getting lost, the further removed of the priority when you said it was going to be done. And the budget year, the further that goes beyond that budget year, the more problems and constraints it could cause on a future budget year, you know, especially if the priorities change. You know, that unspent money might not go to what it was originally intended for because it may get reprioritized. And I think that you've got to get really closer to the year, how much, and more importantly, when it's going to happen. And we understand there's acts of God and, you know, delays, whether it be contractors, price of, you know, price of things and all that. But it's been for the past few years that we've noticed significance, you know, that's been carried over. And again, nothing that we believe to be malicious, just more of, I think, how you're budgeting and how you're prioritizing your projects and the timing of when they're actually happening. One year isn't as much of a concern, but when you get into two and three years. It could be one year if in year two that project falls off. Yeah, I think that I would certainly raise my hand and say that could be problematic, you know. And I think that we saw at least a few cases of that. So. And to solve that, just so I'm clear, if a new project, if the public is told, well, we're reprioritizing because of an act of God or whatever it is, then that provides the clarity and the, I don't know, financial... I think it does. And the reason why is because you're assigning a project to $700,000. And to me, that's what it's all about. If you're going to, you know, not spend $700,000 that you initially said that you would, yeah, I think it's important, you know, that the closer you get removed from the end of the year that that priority let's be attached to that number is what I'm saying. Well, there's also the fact that when it comes to transportation and roads and paving, you've got the impact of weather. And, you know, if the weather is crappy and they get behind and then the contractors are all trying to make up time, you know, the contractors are going to say to somebody, we're just not going to get to your project this year. We can't do it because there are a limited number of contractors that do the work. So, you know, when it comes to paving, you do have weather and contractor and supply factors and also, as you said, the price of materials fluctuates. You know, if you see the price of materials, gee, it's likely to be expressed to 10% lower six months from now. Well, and we're talking a lot of money. Well, then maybe we wait. And so there's just a lot of pieces that go into when it comes to pavement, which is the... I completely agree. And so, you know, I think the points you make are extremely valid to the best possible extent because there are things that can't be controlled. But I also want us to look on the city side and a question I have. I mean, since he talked about two things, how it's under public works here, the paving budget and stormwater, is how, you know, I understand might be. Are these things that require perhaps more manpower to get things done, or is that not the issue? I think part of what was done with the paving was that in Justin's mind, it wasn't a big deal to carry it over because he created some efficiencies where we actually got more done with a two-year contract. And I shared that with Ron. Points well taken, though. I explained to Ron, and I want to make sure that I represented the point of the council correctly. As Justin came in last, and we questioned him about it, because I know as city management, we got a lot of calls that year about, I haven't seen a truck on the road all year paving the roads. What do we got going on? And correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the decision was made that the council wanted to see Justin submit those bids on a yearly basis and have the bidding process done so that we could get the trucks out there as soon as the plant opens up in the spring. So moving forward, that's the intent from council to public works to make sure that it's done on a yearly basis. Even though we might not be getting as much done, something done every year, and those projects are listed in terms of what's going to be accomplished. And again, the only concern that we bring up is the further removed that it gets from the end of the year. The question is at what point in time, it was a priority then, what's your prioritization now? As far as that goes, because you've got $700,000 worth of projects. Is it now $1.92 million? And it looks like it's been a pretty constant number. And it sounds like for many reasons, for sure, mother nature, being one of them, and maybe just understanding better now. But I don't think again, it's nothing absolute, no knock whatsoever. Clearly on the people that are involved in the process, just more of outsiders looking in saying, for the past few years, the numbers have been constant and big. I do think the council was apprised of that in a timely way. And I can remember the conversation. So it isn't a surprise to me or any of the things in the management. And that just tells you that things are working here. And I think that that's a validation of not only the process, but the people that are giving you information. So if you walk and make business decisions based on that information, it just tells me it's working. I appreciate you bringing that up because I think it points out that we need to have our roads paved every year. So if there's a budget every year to pave the roads, pave the roads. Because the longer you wait, the more they get torn up, right? So I think that signal's gone out pretty strong. So I don't think we have to worry about it. And again, just as an outsider looking in and doing this for 30 years, the longer you get removed from the end of the year, and those prod, maybe something else comes in and takes a priority. So that takes a back seat and actually ends up costing you more down the road. I mean, there's so much. But the fact that we're having this conversation and that you already know about it, are there any other questions people have? We talked a little bit about the salaries and did that come up in your overview of the you know, of the books, the city books in terms of paychecks and correct amounts getting payroll issues. There was an issue with payroll as I recall for sure. And I recall that it was like discussed at length, you know, and I actually even think it came up, you know, when I was here, you know, last time just in a different matter. But I believe, you know, if my recollection serves me that we did a separate letter on that. And I believe that there was many conversations that happened in our actual and a lot of it went back. I'm going to go back to 2017, more prevail in 2017. I think we found one, you know, in our test, you know, where there was a miscalculated check. So clearly improvement. We certainly had that conversation with you all. We're confident that there's a lot, that the whole process has changed, you know, so I think that and why do I know? Because when we interviewed to do the audit again, that very question came up for sure, you know, back in I would say may, you know, so I am confident that you all knew, I'm confident that your management has changed its process to the point where it's got, you know, that process sitting in chairs now that it wasn't sitting before. And there's other things clearly that happen to, you know, as well to remedy the problem. But yeah, I know that was a conversation, but I actually believe it got better in 2018 for sure. So. Any other questions for comments? All right. Thank you very much. Thanks, Ron. Thank you for coming out. Okay. Item 10. Consider and possibly adopt rules of procedure for performing development review under the interim bylaws. And Amanda, Paul obviously is busy upstairs. So. I offended myself a hard copy. The 24 BSA 17 requires that and so we put together a draft we have a hard copy at our deaths. The people want to and I did have two covered with this cover. They have two proposed they both happened to be on the last page. Just corrections under rule nine F. It starts. Abstentions are strongly discouraged and and shall count towards the vote of either the majority or the minority. And I have the very top of the last page right there. F. So it should you have the new language. Uh huh. Okay. Towards the vote and just that added sentence at the very end just to be clear that if there are any the last time the city council of the city adopted in their own bylaws there was some procedure adopted but it was just whatever the DRB had in effect at that time and so just to be clear this is replacing whatever might have been previously adopted. These seem pretty similar to me. I was here when we did that one. Yes. They're very similar but since then the city council has adopted the city of south in the rules of conflicts of interest that apply to all appointed and elected officials. So this is these proposed rules basically just focus on the procedure and what the duties are of the chair and how to a proposed process are actually conducting. So if you're familiar I'll probably whenever if you're ever gone I'm going to be keeping this next to me. I printed myself a copy for tonight. Yeah. It's not necessarily expressly spelled out in the rules but just from a kind of a practical perspective the once the city council closes meeting a hearing in a meeting excuse me then you may decide that you want to continue the hearing or close it and at that point then the question is whether you'll deliberate and the suggestion that and the attorney have is that it's always best I think to have a written decision draft in front of you before you perhaps go forward and make a decision because once you actually sit down and start putting something down in writing then all of a sudden oh what about this condition or what about this argument so it's easiest to have something in writing and then if there's something you want to add or or change then you can you can do that before you approve it. Actually, you can do that I think the DRB often closes the hearing and says you will issue a written decision within 45 days and often before then but they then have that time period to deliberate which you know essentially when you are in land development you're a panel of judges and so you have the ability to basically discuss the reasons for and against whatever decision you want to make after you've closed the hearing or within the hearing but generally it's after you've heard all the evidence. I do have one question. You had said that the chair could determine whether or not a site visit was required before setting a hearing and so I'm just curious about that process for determining the need of a site visit or not. I mean it can depend on the facts of the application if there's I mean the main purpose of site visits is to provide context because again it's outside of the public hearing process because there's no recording that's the main thing there's nobody taking minutes or recording and so in my experience with the environmental court the judge has often said something to the effect of you pretend I'm a video camera and point me at what you want me to look at but if the the council chooses it's most I think to be able to picture both what the existing conditions are and also with the plans to get just a better idea of how is this going to fit how is this going to look so the main purpose is context because things look different out in the real world so what step of the way do we call for a site visit the hearing can still be open or would it be before we render a decision or once the hearing has been closed then there can't be any further evidence gathering so you'd want to have a site visit before the hearing is closed which means you have to continue so you have to continue the meeting or sometimes in the middle of the meeting to open your car right you do but from my experience the last time I don't believe we ever had a site visit but we only had three maybe four proposals in total so just you know certainly can any member of the board in open session suggest that we have a site visit so it's not only the determination of the chair it can be that's right if the one or more council members would like that it's best to basically continue the public hearing until whatever next date a date certain and schedule the site visit happen before probably before your meeting would start because then it can be on your agenda also I've only attended one or two DRB meetings in my life and that was years ago so I really don't have even a vague idea of how the process works but step by step overall I have a pretty good idea but step by step we see a preliminary drawing we see then a week or two later more specifically detailed drawing before how detailed the drawing do we see before we render a decision I think it depends the if I remember correctly the planning and zoning department has been requiring at a minimum what has to be submitted for well definitely for sketch sketch plan review level and I'm trying to remember if they come to us too sketch plans do not but I'm just saying the information that's required for sketch so it depends on the application for the most part but if something comes before the council and there is a piece of information that you want or more detail that you want then the DRB it is not at all uncommon for the DRB to continue a hearing while plans are updated or offer response to comments from the board so that's very possible if there's information that the council wants then you can continue the public hearing until and give the applicant the opportunity to submit them but that raises a good question so if there's an application that goes to planning and zoning and it falls under IZ and it's a sketch plan would it come here as a sketch plan? No what's been under the interim bylaws are the definition of new subdivision was any complete application for preliminary plat review that had been submitted on or after I believe it was October 25th 2018 no sketch doesn't require review by the city council under the interim bylaws but it's pretty much every thing else so I want to talk a little bit about the council's role what their authority is what it is not in this particular setting I think that would be helpful because we've got one tonight yes so the purpose of the public hearing is to on the record give the applicant the chance to really present their application and for the council to ask questions and also for the council to take any public comments that may arise essentially to really delve into the details of the application keeping in mind that under the interim bylaws certain types of development if they're coming before you then they are prohibited under the interim bylaw and the question for the council to determine is whether the proposed land development is something that you can allow despite the fact that it has been prohibited and then there are the criteria in the interim bylaws that is something that's been prohibited in this area of the interim bylaws is to kind of maintain the status quo while you conduct the while you and the other committees conduct studies and attempt to prepare more permanent bylaws so that's the one of the purposes of those criteria in the interim bylaws and so if there are aside from just the details of the application which is kind of the beginning the next question then is okay well how does this is this something one that we think will fit going forward with the permanent bylaws that we think that may be ultimately adopted and then how does it fit within the criteria does it have any adverse impact on them or is it consistent with those criteria and that's again that's where deliberations I think can be very helpful because then you can work out the details of the decision having it right in front of you go back to question of scope because it goes before the DRB too right so we have deliberative bodies so tell me now is it a funnel where is those two boards meet the standards of review are different because the DRB is looking at an application under the land development regulations so if it's a subdivision they're looking at it under the subdivision review criteria in article 15 of the land development regulations and they're trying to determine for the most part compliance with the land development regulations and whether the project is appropriate for the site so those are slightly different criteria than what you are looking at it under you are looking at it in terms of well we prohibited this because we wanted to to call a halt while we conducted studies but with regard to this specific application is this something that that we think is acceptable and so the standards of the I would say that the DRB does not have quite as much discretion as the council does but nonetheless the to the extent that the council decides to allow land development that's prohibited there you still have to consider the proposal with respect to those criteria so even if you want to allow something it has to be consistent with these criteria have I answered your question well not totally I think so what basically has to pass both boards and both boards have different criteria that is correct because before a development before the administrative officer can grant a zoning permit an application that is prohibited under the interim bylaws has to get whatever approvals are needed under the land development regulations and whatever and an approval from the city council under the interim bylaws so the first approval is from the city council it's up to the applicant whatever application they want yeah but it's pardon? right but if we say no then that's it right until unless they take us to court it's appealable but they then don't have a second bite with the DRB they have it in there they have to have an approval under both and so if they don't get approval from the DRB but they do from the city council then they're not going to get a land excuse me they're not going to get a zoning permit and there are looking there are other impacts going forward but just for purposes of what happens with that particular application they'll if they don't like a decision they can appeal it but yes they need approvals all the necessary approvals from both bodies before they can get a zoning permit so if DRB rejects approves and we reject and they appeal to the city council appeal to the environmental yes is that clear for people so we have certain criteria that we'll be thinking about in terms of the impact of a development on what we believe might be the outcomes of interim zoning and if it's in conflict then we might say no we need to wait or we can say no this is fits in and it would nothing would presumably change so that's sort of the criteria amen we need to adopt the tool correct kind of a assuming are there any more questions about the rules with the two amendments yes with the two amendments okay so I have a motion and a second is there any further discussion okay all in favor of approving these rules of procedure as with the two amendments signified by saying aye okay so these are adopted and in place thank you oh good thank you great okay alrighty thank you oh yeah alright moving on to 11 interim bylaws we have a publicly warned me for eight o'clock we're a little bit late but I guess we can do that until we have the rules of procedure adopted so let's see we have so we need a motion to open a public hearing on proposed amendment to the interim bylaws to include approximately 15.4 additional acres of land in the exempt areas to which the interim bylaws do not apply second so I'll open that hearing and we have in our you know minutes and I mean our stuff this is as you recall the lot oh maybe Amanda you want to describe it this is the Eau Claire land the vote on the hearing all in favor vote on the hearing signified by saying aye okay so we are ready to listen okay so this is the proposed amendments to the interim bylaws which are really a proposed amendment to the interim zoning map to add two parcels to the areas that are exempt from the requirements of the interim bylaws and the 15 acre parcel known and designated as 1731 Heinsberg Road is depicted in pink highlight and the other parcel would not really have anything to do with but it is directly across from the basically northern most border of the 15 acre parcel the little blue square that is surrounded by exempt yes area and so those are the two parcels and essentially if they are added to the areas considered exempt then the interim bylaws would not apply to to those two parcels as along with all the other areas shown in blue crosshatch okay are there any questions are there comments there's no questions are there any comments from the public regarding okay so can we vote on this or do we have to wait we have to vote to close and then we have to reopen for the next issue first you close the hearing if we have to close this hearing okay the public hearing on the amendment and then you can consider action to close the public hearing okay any discussion all in favor signify by saying aye aye so the public hearing is closed and we can have our deliberations in public well this is just we don't really need to have deliberations no this isn't on a particular application this is on the a proposed amendment so so this is interim zoning so is there any further discussion well then I would entertain a motion to approve this change to or this additional land to exempt from the interim zoning second okay any discussion all in favor say aye okay so we have approved that little pink triangle and a little blue square all right now we need to move on to well item C is discuss the IZ committee appointment process and possibly approve appointment of members to the committee last time Monica Otsby came before us and discussed her role on the TDR interim zoning committee and requested that she be appointed but she also discussed and we now have an application from Kelly Lord Kelly you're here yes no she's not here okay Kelly has come to every TDR meeting okay and so she is applied and Monica as I recall was quite positive about it Kelly is a owner of TDRs without owning the land so this is where committee members attend meetings in their own self-interest right as others would where they owned land that was had potential TDRs and then sold the land but divorced off the TDRs to maintain that ownership apart from the land so it's another twist you can do that oh interesting okay so she's not here to interview but my understanding is she's gotten pretty high marks from everyone who's been on the at those meetings and is interested and I think from my perspective brings a perspective and some knowledge that would be helpful for sort of full discussion so if you're amenable point her as the public member in place of Monica or is that thinking of both or what's well we can discuss Monica as well Monica would like to continue and we could certainly include her as well I've had a couple of discussions with Michael and with Monica and I spoke with Jessica the sense was maybe it was with you the sense was bringing in someone brand new to fill out the committee at this point since you've had a fair amount of meetings might be set you back because you get a new person and you'd have to bring them up to speed so I guess my preference would be to both have been attending all the meetings if we just wanted to have somebody else a different public person an additional one but that would not be my preference to bring in someone new we have a pretty short timeline a lot of those are temporary appointment but she contributed a lot and Kelly has been at every meeting as well so can you suggest that we appoint both then? yes I would next time at the table so I move to appoint Kelly Lynn Lord and Monica Aspey to the IZTDR committee second discussion? all in favor signify by saying aye great thank you so now we move on to item D D11 and this is another interim zoning application IZ 19-01 of Donald and Louise Kerwin to subdivide a two acre parcel developed with a single family dwelling into four lots ranging in size from 0.27 acres to 1.18 acres and to construct a new single family dwelling on each of the resulting undeveloped lots at 14.20 so we need to open a public hearing for this I move that we it says public hearing warrant for 8 p.m. I move we open the public hearing for the second second all in favor? aye so the public hearing is opened on this IZ application IZ 19-01 so you will present this very good I'm Dave Marshall from civil engineering associates representing Lois and Donald Kerwin with regard to a proposed subdivision of their two acre parcel located off of Highland Terrace and also abutting Heinzburg Road Mr. Kerwin is here tonight also to answer any questions is there the need to do any type of swearing in? yes I do swear you in so far I said everything is true so let's see all the interested yeah so I have to remind all present that the proceeding will be conducted in an orderly manner and make copies of these rules available so if someone wants the rules I guess we can give you a copy are there any disclosure of conflicts of interest including any ex parte communications? okay okay the definition of an interested person let me find that it's on the first page yes I think it's the abutters and the already seeking to subdivide right does anybody wish to have a chance to demonstrate that they're an interested person okay are there any interested persons in the audience anyone else I live across the street so you're in a butter I guess even if you're across the street correct so you would be an interested person anyone else alright and so then I need to so only an interested person who's participated in this proceeding may take an appeal of any decision on this matter so you've identified yourself you'll have three minutes each when we get to the public time and then oh I'm sorry and what is your name my name is Tim McGinley Tim or Tim McGinley okay and so I guess I need you to all step forward raise your hand and you take an oath so the three of you need to step forward just the applicant to us do that and all interested persons anybody who wishes to provide so you might want to make some testimony but I'm not here to object anything okay Mr. Corwin and is it Mr. Marshall David Marshall will you step forward please raise your right hand follow I hereby swear that the evidence I give in the cause under consideration shall be the whole truth and nothing but the truth so help me God I do what oh yeah alright so you may proceed finally thank you sorry for making this so so we appreciate Amanda's guidance in regards to what the city council's role in the interim zoning hearing process of applications that would like to proceed that happen to be not allowed to based on the interim zoning limitations you're almost like gatekeepers and obviously there are going to be projects that where the city council's concern about impacts on public infrastructure or the natural resources have been or would possibly be in conflict with ultimately what the city council or the city itself would deem to be acceptable policies moving forward so in this particular case we have an applicant that owns Newaco parcel in a developed portion of the city it has the proposed subdivision would utilize existing infrastructure there wouldn't be any new infrastructure that would have to be constructed and also has very limited amount of area and out of those particular components didn't seem to meet the standards of an area of significant concern that comes to forest parks or natural resource areas things that were very close to the city council's areas of concern as outlined in its interim zoning that being the background in the application package is a plan that shows the character of the area and that's what you see down here I'm sorry that I can turn it around for the viewing audience at home if you like one thing that when you look at this particular project it's essentially an infill of the development around it and to orient you on this particular plan north is straight up and this is Heinzburg Road running back and forth and then this is Highland Terrace and this is the parcel of interest you can see from the ortho photography as far as the existing home sites that basically are located within the immediate neighborhood as well as the Du Bois Drive area and unlike some of the open space areas we're looking to basically create some three lots that where the existing home that fronts and accesses Heinzburg Road the proposed homes would access Highland Terrace as a means of again trying to be part of the more local neighborhood and avoid the high traffic areas associated with Heinzburg Road that's a very big overview of the existing location and the character of the neighborhood around it the application has narrative that talks about each one of the areas of concern that were expressed by the city council in creating the interim zoning bylaw and that being the background happy to go through each one of those to basically provide a better understanding for the city council members as far as how this particular project we think has minimal impact and in a perfect world the Kerwin's would like to be able to move forward before the development review board for demonstrate compliance with the land development regulations but the first thing we need to do is have this discussion with yourselves and basically get a level of comfort that perhaps this was a project that the city council was trying to do a timeout on that in this particular case similar to the last interim zoning that was instituted by the city where there were a number of projects that were allowed to proceed some of them with conditions of approval that would allow the city council to feel more comfortable that ultimately those projects would be closest or closer to the envisioned changes in public policy and implementation of the rules or some projects that just didn't trigger those particular concerns and hence had a limited number of conditions going forward so this is new for many of you the chair has been through it I believe Ms. Emery is also an extensive experience with the development review board I can't give those kudos to you either that's fine but nonetheless we're here to basically help the narrative and discussion of this particular application and we will kind of do a back and forth as far as questions that come up during each one of the items so that we can all at least fully understand what the application is about and then allow you to make your decision moving forward so as I've read through all the material it all seems to make sense I understand what you say about an infill I do see two letters of concern but what I can't see on the map either there or what I saw closer up on my screen is where are these houses where these objections or concerns can sell which would be perfectly answered absolutely so I'm going to do two things I'm going to basically point to the plan that is in your application package and then on the backside of this particular board is actually an enlargement of that area and allow you to see it a little bit better so you're getting closer so in this particular case the chair has identified perfectly that the letters have come in on both the north and south sides of the Kerwin's property which is a much larger view of the Kerwin's property in which you have the house of the garage with the driveway that comes out to Heinsberg Road and then this is Highland Terrace out on the east side again north being straight up and we have the two neighbors both on the south side and north side in which they are concerned about the those buildings and what the impact is on the property the good news about at least the proximity of their existing homes to the proposed homes it's not like we're doing something right next nonetheless the other aspect of land development regulations is that there's many policies that are embedded within the roles both from the comprehensive plan as well as work that's done by the planning commission to basically identify the decisions should proceed in a manner that balances the issues of both public health welfare and safety of the community as well as some land development rights of the applicant itself so we see many of the concerns that were outlined in the two letters as being the type of things that ultimately would be hashed out with the development reform as far as screening along and retention of existing vegetation not to say that we can't have that same discussion with yourselves as part of the process of understanding how to recognize what the character of the project is and how more specifically I think in the bigger picture is how can we shape the application in a way that again tries to adopt the concepts that the city council had or to address the concerns the city council had when it came to dealing with open space natural resource areas the forested areas also it talks about public infrastructure and the concerns of department heads in regards to the ability of the city to absorb additional infrastructure and trying to maintain it so the good news about the application is that at least on the public works end of things the city council engineer is that it relies upon it but is already existing and when we basically are not creating new infrastructure the city has to take over but actually can create new paying users for example the existing sewer system when you can get more people paying quarterly fees for the use of their particular sewer or buying into the allocations that are necessary you basically have new resources coming into the city but no new expenses other than ultimately the treatment plan for treating the additional gallons per day so that's a very positive story with regard to this particular project where again no new infrastructure is being proposed let's talk a little bit about those particular components in this particular case the three proposed lots would have driveways coming out to Highland Terrace this is a mod to our public access policy the agency of transportation they manage curb cuts out on to Route 116 Hinesburg Road and their policy is if there's a way to avoid a direct access on to 116 then that's the way to that's where they want you to go so again the intent there is there in the job of basically moving traffic high levels and in this particular case putting additional curb cuts on Route 116 kind of runs in conflict that particular public policy here the application applicant is proposing to basically have these particular homes out to Highland Terrace to again create more community and basically also that particular access policy the one very interesting component is that there is municipal sewer available in this particular neighborhood but there's no public water and there's no public water because it's too high in elevation the water department cannot provide adequate pressure with its existing infrastructure and therefore most all of the all of the homes at a certain elevation higher all are all served by private wells and that's also one of the questions from one of the property owners is gee we have three new wells or at least one new well and three people pulling water out of the aquifer what does that mean as far as we're concerned there could be about their own water supply and that's an issue with at the state of Vermont when you're doing what's called the water wastewater system and portable water supply permit application is you need to demonstrate that your project will not have an undue impact on the water or the aquifer in the area so that just ask you are the other the Farlees and the Kerwin's and Williamson are they all on wells as well I can't speak personally or of personal knowledge as far as the two people on either side all I can say is that once you get above a certain elevation the water department specifically cannot provide according to the state public water supply rules I can say is that anybody that is to south so wouldn't be Williamson she is a higher elevation so I'm very confident saying that she probably has her own well in that area and how about sewer three wells for Williamson we're looking at this brown line I'm sorry for the record you are thank you I'm sorry there we go did you say you have sewer but Mr. Kerwin currently has an on-site wastewater disposal system and the project would actually remove that on-site wastewater system or at least discontinue it in favor of connection to the municipal system aren't you lucky that is the benefit and that's always one of the challenges when we have a public policy of increasing higher density development in a pre-developed area where you have on-site systems and the need for wells only because isolation distances need to be achieved between a well and an on-site wastewater disposal system and that's basically to make sure that there aren't cross-contamination issues and in order to adopt both of those in a design it challenges the public policy of the density that is allowed in this particular zoning district what I'm getting at is that with the availability of municipal sewer it eliminates those particular conflicts between what's necessary from a public health standpoint and what is identified in the comprehensive plan as being a goal of the city to improve development or density in some areas of the city go ahead so it's hard to believe that this is just an offhand comment that the difference in elevation between the south eastern most butler farms homes is that much different than the ones in Highland Terrace that they don't have a fresh water supply from the municipal system it's right on the threshold yeah it's on the comprehensive plan you have Dubois and that's on town water and you have the development of the field stone Dubois goes down a hill yeah it does it's a good point and it's an optical illusion I drive by there every day when I go to work and you just doesn't strike you as being slightly higher but it's enough to put you above the information of what is available as far as proper water supply pressure fair enough good point yes you may have applied for this subdivision so Mr. Irwin you've never applied for subdivision before well Tim if you go down the street go south yeah there's three others that is a very similar development that is fairly recent probably when you were on the DRB doesn't Tyler Barnes own property no that's further north okay so I'm just trying to remember but if this is the first time ever okay and the three homes there to the south they've been there for three years right it is as far as neighborhoods are concerned it is new to the area but yeah I think you're probably in I think it's six or seven years because one of my daughter's friends I joined the area in 2011 and I think I wanted to bike ride because there was some issue with that it might have been 2012 I think it's about five years yeah five years ago were there did you handle that three lots of no I can't take credit for that are there other questions no I just what do we need to the only point I would make I guess is when I read those letters it seemed like what both of these property owners north and south the most concerned about is screening is what one mentioned water table but I think you just responded to that so they're always compromises and I would suppose one compromise would be that if this proposal is approved then it includes the appropriate screening on the north and south sides which is basically just planting a row of trees as suggested and of course that works in the summer and late spring summer and early fall and not the rest of the year but we all have that challenge but I didn't see I didn't see any and then one whether there's any lights in the project at this point no I wouldn't have visited no more lighting I didn't see any you know no way I'll stand for this type of in either letter it's just you know so I think an infill with appropriate concessions to the property owners north and south in my mind it doesn't fit you know it within our interim zoning and within our long-term planning it seems to be something that that wouldn't necessarily be a subject of the results of interim zoning and probably can be allowed to work forward through the planning this working feverishly to complete their PUD which is exactly what this is and I don't know I mean I can remember the pictures and they were all a little bit different and depending on where in the city they were being built but I do not know if this would undermine what they are envisioning for PUDs in this part of the city I certainly think the three houses a little bit south are so similar that it might be in keeping but I don't really know and that's my only hesitance is we've asked them to really fast track that it's not one of the elements of interim zoning but in our conversations it certainly was something that they were working on that would the open space decisions that we make so I just put it out there I mean I don't know if they would look at this and say wait a minute what did you do to us is that worthwhile then just to check in with the planning commission and continue this at a future meeting I've been looking at the maps I see nothing that stands out to me in terms of our work on the open space IC committee that would put up a red flag for me but I hear you when you talk about it but I think we've asked them to come up with this comprehensive PUD plan and I just don't know yeah we don't want to ask them to do something and then toss something in the face so to speak but yeah I hear you but I'm inclined to think that two acre property and it's not one of these nine home developments that's just sub act 250 under the wire you know but what interests me in this is that if you look at the rest of the properties on there that aren't developed there the rest of the street could go that that direction someday in a piecemeal fashion I mean there might be other landowners that want to see this and obviously the first three have gone in and everybody who owns the slice of that property goes from Highland over to 116 might end up wanting to do this so the question is you have basically a PUD that gets developed piecemeal and you know I don't know how we feel about that right because it doesn't adhere to any PUD each one will be a PUD in itself but they don't together you know they aren't able to implement what the the goals of a PUD would be in terms of you know having open space and other requirements right so that's my only concern I mean I would feel a little more comfortable if we could at least run this by the planning commission to find out if this sort of which of those PUD categories they were I think there were four wasn't there or maybe six I can't remember that this sort of adheres to and does that make sense I mean because that's the whole point they didn't want to have stuff like piecemeal just one other question all that open land that's to the east of the homes is that because it's all wet is that a wet land back there I think it is wet back there and 20 to 25 in slope 2 in slope 2 I just wasn't sure I wanted to make sure because that's a big piece of land that would apply as a regular PUD that would need a lot of work but I didn't know whether it was to double so I'm inclined to move it forward but I hear Helen you're concerned and you want to talk to the planning commission but this is one of those things where this street you know there was resistance to the first three homes if I remember because it changed the nature of the street the street was single family home set back very far from the road and this has happened in other neighborhoods too where larger lots have been subdivided into smaller homes but sometimes that kind of density is good in a way if it leaves other properties free you know what you say has happened on Spear Street a few times just between between like well between Swift Street and Allen Road there's a whole bunch of houses that have been tucked in behind other houses it obviously were part of a larger lot that was then you know and those all had had driveways going down to them as well but this isn't something unusual at all it's just your concern is well yes we've tasked them and they've spent a lot of time trying to have a comprehensive view of how you conduct infill in the city and what's appropriate I just think that would be sort of a courteous thing to do because it is really part of our IZ conversation how could we do that in a way that we could get a response that was you know pretty timely they meet again in two weeks we could ask them to just look at this as a they actually meet next week oh that's right yeah because it was the kids last week it was Tuesday Mr. Crowan did you want to comment would you come up to the table please thank you if I may address the questions so for the record since you're close to the camera will you please identify yourself Don Crowan the last two summers there have been seven houses built on on Highland Terrace in a similar manner to what we want to do your screening question that's already in progress the south line is pretty dense the north line and what would be the east line are in the process of we are planting trees is that showing some other homes that have been built I believe that's correct I'm sorry not we can refer to what we've got here either two or three houses here there are two houses here oh those are not the google there what's that they're on the plan that we got yeah they are they're just hard to see okay so those are kind of new that's what you're saying yes that's three plus two you said there were seven I think there's seven there may be six well there's another one around the corner that was someone's in-law apartment that has the long right here that's a new one that's on the piece of Highland Terrace that runs east-west at that point yes I drive by there a lot because I live on Hinesburg Road so yeah so that's a couple years old so in terms of burden on city infrastructure I think you were trying to make the point that there wouldn't really be any other than attachments to sewer even though the memo says they would attach to town water maybe that's just a mistake that was an error so there's no sidewalk on Highland Terrace today but if enough homes are built in this fashion there may come a point when the residents there petition for a sidewalk in this case there would be the cost of the sidewalk and there would be plowing as well even though there are sidewalks on Dubois and Butler I just want to point that out at this point there is no sidewalk on that road right now the city plows Highland Terrace now though it's a city road correct? I was trying to understand what the future impacts on that street and what costs would there be because you know Meadow Road didn't have sidewalks right? and the city had a plan to put them on Mackintosh I think but Mackintosh said no we don't want them so they gave them to Meadow and that's how we got them and actually that turned out to be a good thing because Meadow Road was one of the busiest ones with the rice high school traffic back and forth twice a day so it was needed if we out of appropriate courtesy need to ask of what our intent was when we asked Planning Commission Planning Commission to do this comprehensive look they come back and say this is not something that we're concerned about then are we with appropriate screening in response to the neighbors concerns are we okay with it I mean from my perspective I think if the answer is this isn't within the parameters of what we're really concerned about then it's okay by me yeah I'm with you Jay yeah no I'm there I just want to we need to wait until who meets next week Planning Commission if we close we have 45 days is that enough time for us to we can't close today because we have to know the Planning Commission we have to gather all the evidence first before we close the hearing what I'm hearing and what our experience basically says is that we'll continue the hearing to a date certain using managed words and the request of the city council that it be as soon as possible that if we can hear back from the Planning Commission you know from their meeting next week as far as again whether or not this particular type of project falls within the radar or outside of what they're trying to focus on in regards to community developments and maintenance of open space and things of that nature then at least we can complete the record and allow the city council to make an informed decision with regard to this application moving forward well that's what we need to do we need to have everybody on the same page and not do something that another group you know we don't want to kick them in the butt and we meet again in less than two weeks so and spring still a ways off so I think from this Friday is March yeah so should we move to continue this to March 18th I think we have to do it to March 18th because March 5th or 4th rather is the town meeting and we don't really do this kind of although you know if the Planning Commission says we're not concerned about it we could take a minute then to do it I think so then we don't hold you may reorganize you may have your reorganization meeting on the 7th which you traditionally do could do it then that's true that would be probably an easier setting 4th, 5th, 6th that's Thursday the 7th? Thursday the 7th after the election that's normally when you reorganize well I think changes are organized well you have to elect a chair second meeting date vice chair and the clerk there's a number of things you have to make appointments it's a brief meeting it's usually a brief meeting it gets contentious we have to have multiple vote on these Tuesdays and Thursdays right at the end of class you okay with that Commander? sure I I think you mentioned that the planning commission had submitted something in writing and that's because you were if they submitted a report to you then perhaps you could refer to that oh they there's a preliminary report they're still working on it one of the things that we asked them to do is get that done ASAP so they have cleared the decks to get that all those PUD recommendations completed so they could become we can adopt them and they can become the LDRs and that would then influence some of the other decisions I think or together they would work together yes one more clarification for Mr. Bennett you are concerned about the wide open spaces on the east side of Highland Terrace that was a big fight how many years ago several several there was a plan to develop that whole area to I don't know what 10 or 20 houses originally it ended up as being one acre lots 100 feet frontage on Highland Terrace not one I'm sorry 10 acre lots 10 acre lots with 100 feet on Highland Terrace you can see that somebody they got to be known as the Bowen Ellie lots or spaghetti lots spaghetti lots whatever guy wanted to call so it was decided that it was wetlands couldn't be really used for anything significant the only other thing I'll add just I'm sure Mr. Curran realizes that if we get back from the Planning Commission this fits within the parameters of what they have the great concerns about I'm not sure we're in a position where we would decide to argue with them on that in other words we really don't see a concern about it but if they do they're the ones that are doing the work understand that that might then place you into that into that position and if it is I hope you're okay with that for a while good deal we've lived there a long time how would you like to meet with the Planning Commission all of you or do you want to send one person to meet with because I'll have to warn that if all five of you just one because of course person yes Tim would you do that and go to their meeting next Tuesday next Tuesday and well I'll ask Paul if you can get some time on their agenda and then maybe well you'll probably want to go to that meeting but to have that picture well we have it we have it we have it we can take it out of our PDF yeah okay so I guess I need a motion to continue this hearing I will move that we continue this hearing to the March 18th no Thursday March 7th thank you Thursday March 7th a reorganizational meeting of the City Council second any further discussion do we need to give a time um seven dates good okay any discussion okay all in favor great thank you very much I hope we get to go to that meeting what meeting oh yes he's up for re-election hey we got a good advertisement coming we do thank you very much thank you for understanding our interest in it was nice to see Mr. Marshall here tonight because he brings back a lot of good memories from the DRV for his presentations thank you very much nostalgic okay thank you we need a motion out of public hearing right I think we already did okay okay okie doke okay moving oh yes let's take a five minute break please and then we'll hear the report from the bike and pedestrian committee I'll get those winner thank you I'll unplug myself now yeah yeah working on something yes my wallet will look the same in about a week this is what what I do is I take it all I ask them to give it to me in hundreds I put it on below and smash it away in every time I'm really short I hold them for special occasions I hold them for special occasions special occasions pull 100 out this is I think the one that Nick is forwarding to us about scooters we're having that presentation so I guess we're going to thank you for that because it's important for us we don't have the presentation that they love how would we yeah would you mind writing it I wrote it down on my pad already when I heard it it's going to give you an option of using a date if you guys want to go to hockey be happy to go to hockey of course I don't want to see any, who's vice chair Megan I don't know he doesn't need to do anything cctv.org I think it's going to be great as long as you're willing to carry the load I mean it's a lot I know I am but I'd like to touch it yeah I do I could never I don't see anybody who's working full time to be chair so much to it I'm going to call Jane and give her a heart I'm going to do some of it but I'm just saying if you end up talking we can finish in an hour I think can't we don't ask a ton of questions well should I turn I better not turn it on line somebody looking for an airline pilot looking for an airline pilot I thought about you this summer was it last summer with your looking for where the air was where's it all right well we've asked I don't want to have to salt the coals because it keeps the driveways better and the house much better if there's no salt tracked in so they don't salt they remember that piece I have to wear the micro spikes here because it just bleeds out into the road and into the wreck pass I've been using them I've fallen on my can yesterday twice really I mean it was like no I haven't gotten that no I don't I probably it's very helpful I also suggest all right I would like to call back to order the self rowington city council meeting of Tuesday February 19th 2019 and we will continue with item 12 which is a report from the bike and pedestrian committee so we have identify and go for it thanks for having us tonight you have Bob Britt, Kathy Frank my name is Dana Farr and I represent the bicycle and pedestrian committee and the other six members who are not here Amanda, Donna, Bill we have a member we have a person from the community who's attending all of our meetings not a member of the committee but been very active with us Nick Anderson we have some safety slash policy recommendations that we'd like to have you look at tonight and give you an update on where all that work that you guys did with us last summer, where it's taken us and what next steps are for that I think you have 30 minutes on the scorecard we will try to keep it to the 30 minutes thanks so we won't necessarily go through the whole mission unless people want us to just to point out though that we do support the plan going to the bicycle and pedestrian this a bicycle and pedestrian friendly city with safe transportation infrastructure and we also emphasize the sustainability that bicycling and pedestrians add as far as the comprehensive plan in reducing energy consumption worldwide so safety of our bicycle and pedestrian infrastructure is pretty much our number one goal and job and the committee examples of how the committee does that is through working to close the gap to make travel safer we've provided the D.P.W. with a listing of roads that need with the need of fogline striping in a priority order the committee has also recently started providing the D.P.W. with listings of recreation path maintenance needs with locations on the path system needing repaving, crack filler, etc the committee is providing locations where when we find malfunctioning RRFBs and crosswalks needing painting and we are also working with the planning department on street type standards to help improve the safety of our local roads we're trying to avoid like the one that happened on Burlington's North Avenue earlier this year or actually late 18 the trend for pedestrian fatalities is has been going up since 2009 up 35% and so trying to make our facilities as safe as possible is important okay so we do have some recommendations that we'd like to make and hope you know you ask questions and you know if you have them and we would you know look for you to adopt these as policies hopefully first off the rapid rapid flashing beacons only have one light facing each direction we think that they should have two lights they're more effective that way when there are two lights facing each direction so that people especially when they're making turns can see those lights easier and also if one light burns out the other light is still working so now the city was one of the early adopters for these lights and so it wasn't standard operation to do that when they were first put in and most towns if you were to go to any town in Chittenden County you could see that they have two lights facing each way Shelburne, Burlington, etc and none of ours do? none of ours do so and that went away they unfroze that yeah for a period of time they were studying it and then they decided yes it's okay the road in this yes and it is okay now with the trans great one on Hinesburg Road now thank you so much so the cost for this upgrade is about 50 to 60,000 and the city has not wanted to do it over the last three years because of the cost I mean it's just no source of money for something that's already there but now that we have the penny for path we would like to move forward with that safety would you recommend to add another two more flashes two the two system and we wouldn't necessarily do them all at once but we would do the major we're looking into that although if you look at this picture down on the lower right some of the newer lights do have a verification signal so that pedestrians know that it's actually not working or whether it is working and daylight sometimes you can't see yeah you can't see it I mean I run from old cross across to Nolan farm and I push that button and that light's been out for three months on the other side on Nolan's farm side any questions on are the newer designs are they more reliable I mean is that industry aggressive those I believe they have what is put in bigger batteries to make them more some of the issue with the cold temperatures in the past we still have some that do that but it's been a lot less this year at least as far as I've noticed yeah yeah yeah there was one up at the university I saw this two the second recommendation is that we install a pedestrian controlled crossing light at Swift and Spear this is the UVM barn here right right now up at Swift and Dorset we have such lights where the pedestrian or the bicycle actually pushes the button traffic stops in the next cycle and then we go on then the person can cross safely we have power there we used to have an RFP and I'll show you in the next slide but that was removed because well let me wait till the next slide on that the CCRPC did scope the intersection this past summer and they basically came to the conclusion that wait time would not measurably increase for cars there if such a light were put in a pedestrian controlled light so we feel pretty good about it Justin was going to do it the DPW was going to do it in November it ended up snowing early and didn't get done it's supposed to be a priority in the spring but he said that he always gets special projects so I just think it's a safety issue since it's a safety issue it should get done as a priority we got that intersection this is when there was an RFP it was removed by the DPW because they felt that people were relying on it and the people that were turning right not when the sign was not no right on red but when they were just making a right on red they couldn't see this light and there was no light on this side so you can see this bicyclist because when he pushed the light the traffic doesn't stop here's someone turning and he's blinded to the fact that that vehicle is coming and hopefully he's being seen stay there for one second sure because that's the no right turn sign at the junction of swift and speed correct I've been meaning to say something to Justin for years and never think of it but you know when you stop where you can see that little car on the right there and then you have to pull up a little bit and it's coming from the left and by then you can't see the no right turn sign anymore and so you can't tell whether it's still is on or if it's off and so realistically that no right turn should be up on one of the wires in front of the driver you know what I'm saying if you're where that car is that we see on the right and then you have to inch up to see if anything's coming from the left if you don't see any other traffic by the time you get there the right turn sign's on or off because it's you've gone past it the visibility of that it's an allows these spot bottom line yeah you can't if the lights not yet on oh right you have to sneak up and no then you can't see if it comes on because it's in the wrong place well you do sometimes you start to turn and you have to stop it's not optimal visibility it should be on a it should be on a pole or a wire no but Tim phrase it perfectly it's not optimal visibility no right turn on red right so we want what about a no right turn on red uh no because you want to be able to I know you want to but if it's a safety issue yeah no there would be a no we're recommending no right turn on red still with this side which there will be because of oncoming over here we would want right on red start to turn cars to be moving so we want red lights all around and then a no right on red signs on where this one is or actually back here or up further or as David said up on the up on the up on the wire Hinesburg and Kennedy Drive exactly I don't want to sound down here that stopped everywhere and you can actually go across the intersection or go across the streets right same as crossing sign isn't still there is it this is not here now it's just a crosswalk sign because the EPW thought it was people were too reliant on the fact that the RF FB it was totally confusing drivers I mean I go through that intersection like you do multiple times every day drivers could never figure out whether to stop or go I mean somebody comes up to it instead of waiting 10 seconds for the light to turn they press the button and it's just better without it there so what you're suggesting makes great and it's just like what's up at Dorset Dorset and SWIFT and that works that works well right so again it's on the plan for a priority for the spring but we just want to make sure it gets done three we recommend that crosswalk and fog line should be painted no longer than June for a year except when that road it tends to be repaved during the construction season it seems like other towns are able to do it Shelburne and Burlington we would like to see the lines painted before the busy bicycle and pedestrian season each year you know I don't know what it takes the city council voted to add 10,000 last year for that to happen and I believe the only roads that got done were the ones that were repaved were the only ones that got striped is that a regional machine collaborative that's what we're recommending it's a private contractor it's a private contractor but there's very few and there's one in New Hampshire and only one I think in all of Vermont the thing that we think could happen is a multi municipality a regional again a regional contract that says let's paint all the roads simultaneously around and get the best price just something to throw out there I think the discussion we had with Justin was that you know without one of those sophisticated machines to expedite the process it's a very slow process but the machines are really expensive but we could collaborate with a couple of other towns and share a machine and I thought we were and I believe the response from Burlington was that I talked to the Burlington DPW and he said that he doesn't want a specialized machine that he has to know how to fix so it's better maybe for us to go out to contract I'm not an expert but to go out to contract to a private company in Burlington well maybe some other communities yeah I recall in our discussion we were leaving Burlington out of it I specifically recall that interesting and you know and you get it so many days each week or every other week or whatever it is and then you just go to it and put lines down a whole lot faster then laying you know at the end of last year a priority listing for the roads that need to be striping so it's in priority order and we said we'd publish it again in March but it's probably the same list that section of Spears have been repaid go back to slide how do I do that can I do that yes where left hand the spear and that section of Spears have been repaid yeah from pheasant way down to Allen yes and it was restrict when that happened a little progress well Kevin were you able to get it winded up I don't think only on one side on one side well I think they made the lane narrower is what they did they didn't pay there's still no pedestrian or bike lanes on it in that section below there's no street there pheasant way yeah below pheasant way there really just isn't enough room except for where south village put in the extra space these are some more examples airplane park airport parkway by again no lines Farrell street hopefully that will get painted this year when when the sewage project is completed so any questions on that I don't know Justin I think is still hesitant about that I know he tries to group all the painting at the same time but it seems to be a safety issue when it doesn't get done until the fall and then we go right into the winter and it gets scraped off it gets scraped off right so I just think it's important to get done number four we think that the city should have about three to five percent of the paving budget to repair the recreation path system each year that's about 18,000 30,000 of the current current budget after the penny for paths sunsets well this is maintenance these are for potholes and as you can see sections get really dug up and that needs to be repaired again the spending may not be needed every year which just would be great as a policy that hey we're going to take 3% of the money and keep the bike path up to snuff so that it doesn't get dangerous and cause an accident them itself exactly to replace the whole thing in Burlington how many hundreds of dollars or millions did they spend to rebuild it because they didn't do anything for 20 years so you can see other examples here's the path going into Stone Hedge from Stone Hedge into Samansky Park and about a quarter of that path has about six to eight issues so when you get two bicycles on the same sky either yield or good luck and I notice it when I run there the Nolan Farm rec path again cracking and you can see the growth growing into the path there's also on some of the paths like this one in Midland Avenue where major cracks have happened and that may not be able to be filled with crack filler we did work with the DPW this year and starting next year when the roads cracks get filled they're going to start filling the cracks in the rec path they hadn't been doing it because they were a little afraid that like motorcycles on roads it can be a little slippery when you have crack filler on the surface but it seems like it's better to have that than to have the complete rec path fall apart and any questions on that recommendation next in this area in the past three years ago we got the city to put in ballards the little plastic ballards to keep people off of the rec path this is on Dorset Street and the rec path runs right along the road and what happens is when people are taking a during rush hour usually a left on the songbird and a little backup starts people go on to the rec path to get around to keep going so there's but it ends and then what happens is when the traffic again is backed up people trying to get up to their edge class go on to the path use it as a travel lane to take their right turn to go up and further on down when people get close to the Kennedy road turn and they're trying to get to the right on red lane so where this one Kennedy drive entrance is up and to that point they're going on to the rec path so we've had several residents ask us about it and say hey what can you do now what happens in the winter with those plastic well that's what what we're thinking is if a solid barrier gets taken away for snow plow just in the supportive of this is to put some kind of solid barrier in so it's year round protection so we don't a fence isn't strong enough I walk there a lot I tell you in winter it's a little creepy because you can't really tell the difference between the road and the sidewalk that's been plowed so it seems like and there you are in these cars coming towards you talking about a dark it was an alternative I was thinking more of a curb or maybe this fence continuation of this fence right here under the highway yeah knows that they yeah I mean I noticed on the way over here tonight we've got a bit of a snow bank so that's keeping people off or at least they didn't see any tire tracks one of the storms I saw tire tracks going through the snow there onto the rec path and around so it does happen with these recommendations do we go through them and talk about the budget next year is that what this is about or is that well I'm trying to figure out so it's into our timeline yes I don't know if the the RFPs the beacons need to actually go through say CIP or whatever because it's a safety issue I believe today that it's okay to spend the penny for path money on that now without waiting to another budget year do we make that decision I don't really know but we're hoping I think if it's not in the CIP then unless there's a pre-approved list of projects that either the committee or staff or combination thereof like we did with open space comes to you and say we don't have that on this list we don't need to come back to you we don't have that right now so my recommendation to Bob was since it's not in the CIP just to be transparent about it although I don't I think there's support all the way around especially for the safety concerns that it just be brought to the council to say that makes sense go ahead and do it and then we'll make sure it's next to it these particular ones were for the penny for pass but it's just within the budget of what we're going to collect for the the penny we're going to go out and take the loan for the money so we'll have a significant amount of money that we can begin doing some of these projects with but do we need to prioritize because we only have a finite amount of money and this isn't yet been put out correct so in the CIP that there's some certain projects out ten years and some of them are prioritized for wreck impact fees penny for pass so you can see within the CIP there are some it's just a few of these small items that need to be taken care of and obviously Justin has to have the bandwidth but we do want to since there's safety issues that's what we did although three to five percent on the paving budget is a different issue that's no increase in money it's just allocating some of it we did bump the paving budget up 25,000 yeah so the barrier is not maintenance that is something that could come from the penny for pass yes really what we're you know we act in an advisory role but we do feel some kind of stewardship and we just want to be available to be able to look at the transactions that are going through the penny for pass keep informed and maybe once a year get a sort of an annual report each fiscal year saying you know here's what how much money came in what went out and where are we just to keep us up to date on that so we can do that for Ashley get you those reports great because that sounds reasonable to me it gives us another so those are the safety recommendations some have been waiting a while and it would be great to move forward now that we have a chunk of money and I don't think even the fence cost that much to install but I mean is there a is there a a fence sorry it's all rolled up don't go there they could be the new dark part that's where they really run a long way except if the frisbee goes over the fence okay so we now wanted to give you an update on what's being worked on this year now that we have the penny for pass involved do you have the time to do this I mean we took a little more time on the safety issues just get we started we have another five or ten minutes okay try to do it so there's basically four projects because we thought these could be quick hitters because a concept to installing it although we're trying to make that shorter so there's three possible crosswalks on Wilson Row which I'll show you in more depth coming up and then a crosswalk across Kennedy Drive at West Twin Oaks and then we have three crosswalks that are being scoped right now for Heinzburg Road between Wilson Road and Kennedy Drive and those are at Ruth Street Wright Court and Proudie Parkway and that's part of a rec path scoping project that tool design is working on could be they're probably all so that's all being worked on these engineering studies can I just say something I mean it's beyond the study group that was looking at this but I never understood why the crosswalk would be not at a cross section at an intersection on Wilson Road there is a cross section I have a snap up now so this is the end of Heinzburg Road where it meets Wilson Road and this is Kennedy Drive at the airport I do not understand that middle blue star and I would put it at the and I take the bus at that blue star and I sometimes have to cross a big pile of snow to get into the bus that's just not going to be a place that's going to be cleared in the winter because the men are busy I mean I shouldn't say men the public works people are busy clearing the roads and the sidewalks and this is where the gazebo and so there are points in the year where I can't take that bus because I can't on the opposite side where that blue star is so the bus stops are here that's where the bus stop is but if you go to like a cross section it's cleared because the streets are cleared prior to the sidewalks being cleared do you understand what I'm saying and these are what's being scoped so they may come to the same conclusion and I've always had that I said it once or twice but I'm going to say it again part of the reason that it's desired here is the gazebo the living facility is right there that is a special request made of the council many years ago specifically for that location one of their workers was hit trying to cross the street because there's no crosswalk so you have to you know but I don't know how far that is specifically I remember that and that might be possible it's just that there's the bus stops it doesn't make sense either because if you just put it at the cross section you can get to the bus because the road is cleared the name was to serve the people I understand but if in the winter no one can use it but it could possibly be used from people coming from the neighborhood to the north or the south there are half an army of people right you know and what's driving this need is this is a whole model between the two points there are crosswalks now and the people in the Chamberlain neighborhood cannot access this easily to go to the restaurants that are along here or the pharmacy that's here so it seemed and it was in the Chamberlain neighborhood report but there are enough places where the roads come into Wilson Road that you could you could place your crosswalks there easy easy cross I cross these this is where I cross these two so that would be feedback we can give to Ashley Parker the project manager and to tell tool hey think about that and they're cleared in the winter too okay and right now there's where this is really West Twin Oaks Terrace not Twin Oaks Drive I believe and so again this is an early concept it's not something that's going to happen but what's cool about this is the win-win for drivers they've added a turning lane to go up to the edge so that you don't end up with that backup when someone's taking a left turn and the two lanes can proceed without someone darting out to try to get into the right lane so they can get around the car turning left so just that's where things are headed but actually these are just preliminary alright so there's two sidewalk projects on the west side of Airport Parkway between Kirby Road going all the way up to Barard Drive and maybe even up to Pizza Putt to get that sidewalk in and that would be accompanied by bike lanes on both sides of the road so that was previously scoped and a contract for engineering has either been let or is in the process of being signed and then on the sidewalk at the Speer Street Jug Handle the furthest most crosswalk up at UVM before you get to Williston Road or now by now it's Main Street Burlington so that section to get people off of walking with their backs around the Jug Handle driveway I don't know if I dare do this but just to show you so just to orient this is the parking garage is over here and this is a sidewalk and right now students whatever if they want to get to Verizon or Staples or East Terrace or wherever they walk with their backs to traffic to get over to this crosswalk on East Terrace to continue on and so every day yeah and so so if we're trying to get a or the city is trying to get a sidewalks straight through this section here so that that can be cleaned up it is and so there's UVM is working with working on some with with Ashley Parker to try to get some type of an agreement license type in place to do this I don't know if our city does it or if that is South Burlington so I don't know if we do it or the university does it I believe so we own I think right through this building is the is the is the town city line we're looking at a map earlier this week did we get any of the pilot payments well there's another topic to look into yeah put that one down just if I can make a point about that oh sure the slide there's nothing along street on the west side or the east side the way of sidewalk but UVM is going to be starting their big project for the new basketball arena and it seems to me there's an opportunity there to talk to them to see if something can be put in there I think those discussions are already beginning great fantastic okay the pretty much the one recreation path that's in progress and may be able to get to actual digging this summer or this construction year is the path on the upper part of allen road so this is south village over here the new soccer field is going to be over here somewhere and it connects to the Bakes path and Bakes neighborhood all down here we that has been previously scoped there's engine engineering services contract is I think in place so that's moving forward we do have one ROW right of way that we haven't gotten yet but the city hasn't gotten yet so hopefully we can either work around it or it'll come to pass we'll see yeah right exactly now this one I say it's in the slides has in progress but this really hasn't been started yet it's been previously scoped this is the street between cross and was the number one priority that residents want yeah and so the city is considering applying for a grant this summer but there's been no decision they want to get feedback from the trans that actually it will work because it's been turned down twice so Ashley is making that decision third time might be the charm but we don't know the committee would like to move forward no matter what with getting the engineering going because it's so who knows if it's going to happen right now it's in the CIP for 22 and 23 fiscal year 22 and 23 there's money in the CIP that's in the FY 20 well two pieces of money there's 52,000 of recreation impact fees that are sitting in the FY 2019 CIP that could be used to do that engineering study and now and the and there's also money in the 20 FY 20 that was for a project that's not going to that money is not going to be spent right away so on a different project so there's money to be moved around yeah so there is a bandwidth problem with this one in the sense that we got I've already showed you all those other projects and so whether the city can take that on or can delegate that I don't know to say okay you take care of managing getting that done so is that listed as an eligible project in the impact fee ordinance it is then we should be able to do that and then the thing that's the juggle here is that if a grant does come through we can use that engineering money as the match but there's no guarantee so if we're going to move this project which was there you know the residents number one project forward I think we should take that chance and spend the 52 and then if we have to do the 20% match on the other 600,000 so be it that comes out of for panel but it is a bandwidth issue that is exactly the reason that we want to bring the impact fee ordinances back to you so that they're more aligned with the CIP and projects rather than a plan of potential things that if they don't happen we can't apply the impact fees to it because they're not listed so it gives they'll be written a little bit more generally and Justin and Paul have been working pretty hard on that hopefully by the summer you'll at least start seeing some of them and the wreck impact fee one would include more general language to be able to add these kinds of projects in but this one happens to be on the list anyway and they have come into our committee and have said that they would they were so successful but I you know that's another one that could be in ten years buy in their success creamy and all the doors people want to go to creamy in Sadie Lane so that's the best place well I mean 20% of our households are within a mile of that piece of path and I've seen people walk with strollers down this side of the road to try to get a creamy and it's pretty dangerous I have a list you have these slides these wreck paths that are being scoped now they should be out soon I don't know probably want to keep going get going so we don't need to go through them those make good sense and then just finally good things that are happening for instance when that Kimball Avenue got repaved last fall the DPW was able to reduce the width of the driving lane to 10 feet so that much wider bike lanes now and we have one member of our committee who commutes to Global Foundry on that and he said it really has helped so we really appreciate it with the DPW and then SDR Lin moving ahead with building that road between South Village and Dorset Farms to connect to Midland Avenue there was about 20 or 30 vehicles cranes and everything working there last Friday when I went by and so they hope to have the road and the rec path done this spring you know subject to weather so we'll see but it makes that Dorset section even that more important because then even more people can go for a creamy so so questions well that's great I think you've done a terrific job that's good thank you for Passby it can be used as part of a project cost and that when we specified in our all the paperwork we showed to the public we said that it could be used to hire project managers that type of work so yes to expand the bandwidth we knew that was going to be a constraint about that annually you have that for Passby have it for recreation facility okay thank you very much not going to happen alright thank you thank you good work get a new picture of the Dorset Farms because all that graffiti is covered right 13 let's hustle along because the heat's gone off the ordinance amendments you'll hear from Amanda we have first reading so this is a public hearing right no first readings is you just read and then we have to set a public hearing March 18th I guess we potentially have okay you saw the just to propose parking ordinance I know within the past month so the current ordinance there is a distinct difference from when I was passed by I won't put my hood up today get the circulation so the current ordinance has been in effect and amended regularly for many years I believe it was first adopted in the late 1950s and so over time the enforcement enforcement and regulation of these two issues have particularly enforcement have become separated the parking regulations are now enforced as a civil matter before the criminal division of the Vermont Superior Court and motor vehicle and traffic ordinance that those regulations are enforced through the judicial bureau which is a more summary proceeding enforcement officers issue essentially a ticket but it is entitled it's a municipal complaint and the recipient of such a complaint can then go to the judicial bureau to appeal it parking ordinance is parking enforcement is done a little differently there are both the possibility of tickets for collecting of fines and then there's also the removal option of unlawfully parked vehicles essentially towing them and there is an appeal process of those as well so that the main of these over time the other ones have been the other one excuse me has been amended in a piecemeal fashion and to kind of start with a clean slate it's essentially adopting each of them as a replacement for the old without doing little bits of each we just need a motion to schedule public hearing for each of them and you have already scheduled and it has not been warned yet but you have agreed to schedule a public hearing on the potential repeal of the emergency management ordinance for March 18th and there is still time if you were to move these forward to a public hearing on the same day we're also going to do that's the March 18th this one we'll do the IZ application no that's March 7th 7th but we will hear from the Kernel State Environmental Agency yeah boy what else do we have anything else big coming up I want to have Alana come in that night and show you plan sets for the building for the 18th the plan sets are getting pretty advanced now so I'd like to come in and do an overview okay well this hearing isn't going to take I mean how many people from the community are going to complain about it I'll move that we schedule this for the 18th for the second reading of the proposed parking ordinance and second reading of the proposed motor vehicle and traffic ordinances any further discussion all in favor great thank you sorry you had to chill out so much we'll find a warm spot in the building yeah probably the warmest spot you have to want to go do some work tonight re-choices okay item 15 oh I'm sorry excuse me item 14 January financials Tom I wasn't at your last meeting but you got the department manager I don't think we get any responses back about follow-up but if you do have anything I'd be happy to do that pursue that with the managers we remain in good shape budgets on track for about 60% through the year at this point the one item I did want to bring to your attention is the highway paving which shows that it's way over budget and that's just because the accrual hasn't been moved yet that's going to be exactly what that number is in terms of it being spent for FY 19 and then the accrual will come in and it is now wiped off our books and Ron's aware of that so that account has been cleared off the accrual books as well so it was 200 and something percent spent but it's going to be 100% so what are we going to do about all that the accruals just curious a lot of that isn't scheduled for paving I don't believe they'll continue to try to fill as best they can in between these winter events that we're having but once the summer comes and we get a hot patch that's the better stuff the cold patch is a temporary fix as I understand it it's going to come back out the goal is to where they are bad today is to at least fill them so that they're even with the top of the road that may be an issue in the wintertime because then the plow could peel them up what they do now is if it's a deep hole they just put a little bit in to soften the blow and so you really want the thing to be cut into a rectangle and then just filled in and then rolled but it takes more time and money to do that when you do that in the cold it's going to get a week later in the wintertime throwing go was good to keep you but I can't tell you how many people have had rims damaged on Dorset Street at Wilkins house and the guy that emailed us said he had a $200 should we put a sign up they have bump ahead on industrial lab right next to the ST Ireland but they used to have their like heartscapes in a different type store right as you're approaching dog daycare they put a saw horse there with a blinker because it was so bad and I've seen them do throw in goes three times the winter on that stretch because it's just like there's moisture that gathers and never goes anywhere and it freezes and thaws so when that hole before it got filled it's worst on the Saturday after I blew ruined my wheel I went and got one of the orange cones there because I wanted and I got it as close as I could without getting it out on the road because I didn't want to create an obstacle but when things are bad you have to at least put a warning right to tell them don't hit this hole because you will hurt your car you know I mean so thank you Tom item 15 consider convening is the South Wellington liquor control commission to approve three applications middle market deli target store T3306 and Walgreens 11526 I mean that we convene is the South Wellington liquor control commission second I'm all in favor I'm all in favor of the second any discussion so these are fine the application do you have any knowledge whether the business was purchased by recently by new I know it's for sale it's for sale I have heard that it's for sale the business I don't know if it has been sold I had heard that it had been sold it would have been very recently within the last these old names would be applicable on this license owners or I don't know I mean it shouldn't be if there's a business and a business gets sold they need to get a new license is that true I would think so I have heard it was sold but I don't have proof but it just might be worth asking a question I don't know if it has or not so do you want to hold that well I don't want to hold it up if they haven't sold it they need to keep their license so they need to keep let's just go ahead I'll check on it all in favor of granting these three second class licenses aye other business reorganization date is the 7th of March yeah I guess you've already decided that so the 7th of March question is in some years you've done it like at noon other years I have a normal night meeting and that's on Thursday I can't do daytime class so a normal time you can go normal time it'll help me a whole lot if you want 15 minutes later or 7 it's not going to be that long on the meeting 7 would be fine that'd be great alright so March 7 that's 7 I can actually have something to eat before I come that'd be good okay so we'll convene at 7 and the other item of business that night will be the vote in will be the Kerwin's proposal okay so we're going to leave the council to treat for another time that's fine no no we can my question the council retreat was do we still wish to have one is it just the five of us yeah they may do it over the lake I think we should wait until after the election okay well mid June be after the election right okay so and it sounds like so there's something we could be discussing I mean we did have a list of items that were concerned that we can still I think we should take this up after the election is what I'm saying oh so you're saying discuss it okay yeah well I just wanted to bring it up sure we should do it anyone is still interested in it sounds like you are good okay the third item was the issue of a letter of support I didn't bring the the language okay that yeah for that yeah it was deemed that it was racial harassment but then they didn't do anything to the perpetrator but now they have correct no no it was a gun magazine issue but there is a study group working on legislation right and there was a quote in the vt digger by tj donovan that said that it's difficult because of the first amendment right so it's a difficult issue I'm trying to find what was sent to us by so much mail we do we're getting there I'm sorry I'm behind on that one all right actually I don't think I saw language this is the plastic that I got I have a letter so I will would you like me to bring it I have the language that Monica gave us I apologize I read through it this afternoon and I went oh yeah we should really discuss this and I left it at home but it was what Brattleboro had done some language I will bring that hopefully I can remember to the meeting on the 7th or I'll make copies and get it to you so you can review it and then we can decide whether we would like to write a letter of support to our legislative delegation that says you know we want you to look at this or whatever it is we want to do I think she was making the case that in light of all the things that have happened in South Burlington in terms of the rebels name and then the graffiti on the court and then the Black Lives Matter that it's an issue of particular resonance with this community not to be dumb but it's Monica who Otsby March 7th agenda then well on the committee yes we just put her so shall we put it on the agenda the 7th sure and just you know discuss it a little bit more and decide what it is we want to do with the VT Digger article that discuss what current legislators legislation is kind of in the works too Helen received it okay any other items alright wish us luck in the election will you will you what oh I wish you luck what are you hearing out there you mean we're on an ad nothing well this guy's not going to he's not going to next Monday right but I mean from voters what are you hearing are we adjourning I would like a motion to adjourn all in favor aye we are adjourned thank you oh so now I can't talk to you anymore yes you can you can talk about that oh that's not city business oh okay oh