 Thank you. Welcome, Aloha. Thanks so much for joining us at Think Tech Hawaii. We appreciate taking the time to join us, take a look, take a listen, and feel free to share your thoughts with us. We'll take them into account in coming weeks and episodes. And today we have the great fortune of having with us Professor Vernelia Randall, Professor Emerita of the University of the Dayton School of Law, and one of the leading national and international scholars on racism and the law. And Professor Randall's racism.org site is a compilation of some of the most comprehensive collections of articles on the subject that you'll find anywhere. Jeff Fortnoy, First Amendment and Constitutional Scholar Litigation Attorney and Partner at one of our most respected senior firms, Kate Shuddy and David Louis, former Attorney General of the State of Hawaii, Senior Litigation Attorney and Partner at the Kobayashi Sugita firm, also here in Honolulu. Thanks so much for joining us. Hey, today we thought we'd take a dabble since we're two months from the midterm elections. Hey, and some thoughts about what issues do you think might have some impact on these upcoming midterm elections? Professor Randall, you want to start us off? Any thoughts? Well, I definitely think the abortion issue will have an impact on the election. I also think that an issue important to me won't have an impact on election. And that is the allowing of police to kill black men and women with no real repercussions. So, I mean, an abortion is an important issue, but racial justice is also. And unfortunately, I don't think it will be that will have an impact when it elects them. I think a major issue, and I didn't think it was going to be, at least with independence, is what's going on at Mar-a-Lago. And the subpoena issue as more and more is leaked out about Trump's lawlessness and carelessness, depending upon how you want to look at it in taking documents that he had no right to take. He and his lawyers, and I hope that there's going to be disbarment proceedings against at least one or more attorneys who lied on an affidavit that there were no documents at Mar-a-Lago. And depending upon the scope of the characterization of the documents, top secret, super secret, whatever all the terms are, I think people have begun, and I didn't think this was going to happen, have begun to turn on Trump and the games that his Republican colleagues continue to play in the Senate. And so, you know, I've been on the show a lot, and I've been one of the more pessimistic people about what I thought was going to happen in November. But I'm beginning to change. The polls are beginning to change. Some of the elections that have occurred over the last three months have shown that the abortion issue and some of these Trump issues are beginning to sway independence. And I think it's now very more than likely that Democrats will keep the Senate and maybe, and I'm not predicting this, maybe continue to maintain a one or two vote margin in the House. So, you know, I think it's hard to predict everybody without knowing what's going to happen in the next four to six weeks. But the chute continues to drop. So, I agree abortion will bring women out. I think forgiving the student debt, which I think is very controversial, but I think it's going to bring out a lot of younger people who will vote Democratic and I think Mar-a-Lago. So those three things I think. And a little bit, you know, the change in the gas prices, inflation is kind of steady. So we'll just see how important the economy is. It's normally the most important issue, but I think it's being overwhelmed by these other issues. So my take on this is that the biggest factor is whether independence will be so turned off by the anti-democratic rhetoric and the anti-democratic forces that have gathered behind Trump, the deniers of the election, the people who are putting themselves out there and say, you know what, I don't care what the election is. I'm ready to declare it for Trump if I get elected as the election's official. These are such extreme views and so anti-democratic that I have been very pessimistic of late. But the real question is what is the basic nature of the American people? Have the culture wars, which has been the driving force of the anti-democratic forces in Trump, have those culture wars reach the tipping point where it is a bridge too far and the basic decency of the American people will, as a group, reassert themselves and reassert itself so that we can have the Democrats come forth and succeed in an election. I mean, it's very difficult. I think it's very close. We're on a razor's edge right now. And the problem is, is that the Democrats who obviously I support, you know, they're always for process and fairness and things like that. And those things really don't matter to the GOP a whole heck of a lot. They just want control. They want to win. They don't mind the cost and they don't mind the cost of being anti-democratic. So I consider the anti-democratic forces and sentiments as the biggest piece. And I'm just hoping that that will carry the day. You know, what you're looking at is two completely opposite political realities. One is gerrymandering, which gives the Republicans tremendous advantage in most of the house races between the two mountain ranges, the Rockies and the Alleghenies. And the other is turnout. And I think the turnout issue is what the Democrats have got to hope and, you know, hope that the independence and the Democratic voters show up. And normally in midterm elections, turnout is very low. And if it's low again, then gerrymandering will rule the day. So we're just going to have to see how excited voters are going to be. And if you look at the one race in New York, where it was one on this sole issue of abortion, according to most commentators, that's because of turnout. You know, I mean, people are not that motivated during the midterm elections to vote. And I, you know, I'm sorry, have to agree with Professor Randall. I think race is a total non-issue come this November. It's been superseded by everything else. You know, Well, it's never been on the, let's not pray like it's been superseded. It's never been on the national agenda, except for some sort of superficial point. I don't feel like, because I'm far, far left first, and I am not a Democrat. And most years I haven't voted. When I do vote, I vote some other party besides Republican and Democrat. Okay. So, and we always get blamed with spoiling the election. But the problem is I have value and I don't want to be forced into the position of reneging on my own values. So someone I don't want Democrat or Republican gets in. There's a lot of people in my position. And I don't know that Democrats have done enough to win a lot of us over. I'm still not sure about what. So Professor Randall, what do you think? You know, I know the state, but I also know the state of going down the road of voting against your value. That once you go down that road, there's always another election in which there's always someone, you know, we've got to get this other party in, and then you spend four years aiding yourself for having voted for them. So I think that the Democrats, if they don't want a tight election, they might not need us to win. But they might. And I think they need to start thinking about not how to appeal to the middle, but how to appeal to the extreme. Professor Randall, I have a question for you. Do you think if race is not a big issue? And my own view is that race only becomes an issue when there's a crisis. And even though there was this shooting the other day, it's not a big enough crisis because it's unfortunately the new normal that another black person unarmed in his bed was killed by a police invading his home. But my question to you is, do you think if race is not front and center with a crisis, that there will be a less turnout of people of color, of black voters, because of just the dynamics that maybe that other issues don't matter as much? I'm curious as to your viewpoint. First of all, I think many black voters are very conservative. And so I think I don't fit into the black voter norm in terms of my views. I think I would be an extreme person for a black voter. But I do think that I think that what that there's this whole conservative strange range of black voters who are balled by Trump, but who may still be voting Republican. I think there's the whole race race brings black voters out. But so does economic issues. And I think for instance, I think, and this on the websites that I'm on, which are mostly occupied by black voters, this sort of a disgust over the student long thing. Because black voters have a higher student loan debt level. And $10,000 doesn't even begin to help them skin to deal with that vote and get rid of the accumulated interest. So I think there's a lot of dissatisfaction with based on the economy, based on other economic issues. But I also think that black voters, most black voters in middle of the road, and will not want Trump to get in. And so they'll turn out, I think they'll turn out the vote because of that. I mean, you know, the reality is in a midterm election, the black vote is insignificant because it's localized in a few major metropolitan areas and in areas in the south. But in half the states, the black vote in midterms is totally insignificant. I mean, how many African Americans are in Montana and Idaho? And, you know, we can go through state by state. So, you know, in the national election, it's huge when you're dealing with popular vote in electoral college and everything else. So, you know, yes, you need let's let's take a state like Georgia. Their black votes are critical in Georgia, but they're not critical in the congressional district in Philadelphia or in New York City or, you know, San Francisco or Los Angeles. So, you know, I think the reality is it's those white middle class suburban voters who are going to make the difference in these midterm elections. I mean, that's my reality in the midterms. I have no question with you, Professor Randall, in a national election, it's really, really important. But I think this time around, not sure. I think that's a good point about the midterm. The other thing I've noticed about the election cycle, we just had our primary was the influence of money did not make a big difference in Hawaii this time. There was tremendous negative adds a huge influx of millions of dollars in a small market here. But I have a question, Jeff, because Jeff has been a foremost advocate for the First Amendment. And I have always disagreed with the Citizens United case that said that speech is money and the influx and outsized influence of big money in influencing elections. I don't know that that's going to happen. I don't know what's going to happen in this midterm. But I'm curious as to whether or not either of the other two are concerned about the outsized influence of money. Whether I'm concerned or not or whether I think it's legal are two different things. Yeah. The problem I had with Citizens United was the finding that a corporation is a person. That's a fiction that to me is absurd. And if it's going to be a person, then apply it across the board to everything else. When it does something wrong. But as David pointed out, I mean, money is always influenced elections, even in the 1700s. It may not have been as much. And frankly, people get all upset because these people are Republicans and they're given millions of dollars. There's plenty of Democrats that are given millions of dollars. So it's the way the money's used, David. And I was offended by those ads. But on a free speech basis. And I was involved in the major case here dealing with political ads. I'm a free speech person. And people can agree or disagree. And you and I have disagreed. I know it's a very controversial issue, not just in politics, but in everything else. But I'm still of the belief, and it's not going to change, that words can hurt. But I don't believe that there should be a government that says what is or is not appropriate, except for certain things, which I've always agreed with, like pornography, like defamation, and things like that. So, you know, money being poured into political races. Hey, go out there and raise it. That's just part of the reality. And we know that there's a recent mega PAC group, which has received a donation of $1.6 billion and just pointed the former head of the Federalist Society to run it. So we know that the targeting of federal judgeships continues to be a very, very high priority for the Republican Party. One of the things the Republicans did are the conservatives, I don't want to say, is that I was starting that Federalist Society and starting chapters in all the school and making it a fraternity, a sorority type situation, training up lawyers through law school with the conservative mindset and then getting them jobs and then helping each other and setting themselves up. I mean, that's brilliant. Once again, the Democrats are left at the starting gate and the conservatives have figured things out. I do not understand. In 1990, right? No, no, you go, please. I was just going to say, back in when I first started teaching, and I looked at the Federalist Society and said stuff about, you know, this is going to be a real threat. They were a threat back in 1990 in law schools to minority law professors. They petitioned against minority law professors. They did all, and they were encouraged to do that. And I never could understand over the years why the Democrats didn't develop some similar network of training lawyers within their value system. But here we are. Well, you know, I mean, I went to a law school that I went to Duke in the early 70s and it was a school that five years earlier was completely dominated by Southern white males and very conservative. And then in the late 60s and early 70s began to change fairly dramatically. And of course, now it's a completely different makeup, you know, whether it's women versus men and or minorities versus whites. But, you know, there's a lot of very conservative law schools around the country that have cropped up and are putting out lots of very conservative lawyers. And even in the major schools, I mean, look at the Supreme Court and the conservative majority, where did they all go to law school? They're all from Yale and Harvard. So I mean, it's not like it's only happening in, you know, Liberty law school or whatever. So which are the voting blocks that might make some difference in these upcoming elections? And it may vary from state to state. You know, I've already indicated, I think it's going to be the same group that put Biden in along with, of course, this time it won't be the African American community. But I think it's the white middle class woman and, you know, and younger voters. I think that's going to be the two groups that are going to have to show up in various places because of the gerrymandering that's gone on. And, you know, we talk about 400 and what is it? David, you're the, is it 435 house seats? There may be only be 40 that are really at play. Yeah. Right. The other 400 are done even before we start. Maybe less than four. There's only a few swing votes. There's only a few swing swing districts. So I don't disagree with Jeff. I think in the majority of the races, it's already set. I mean, they're already done. I think the main thing is in places like Georgia where, you know, voter turnout is huge. And it's going to be really important. It's interesting, you know, I mean, Kansas is deep red and Kansas voted against abortion. I look at those things and then Alaska just voted in favor of the Democratic Native American woman. Part of that is, I think people are tired of Sarah Palin and she has distinguished. It's not over yet. Yes, I know. She's going to run again and maybe she'll. No, that race isn't over yet. Oh, okay. That's a runoff. And Palin, if you look at David, if you look at the voting in Alaska, there were like, I don't know, 13 or 15 candidates. It's not unlikely that Palin's going to win that race when you look at all the other people who have dropped out and where their votes are going to go. But, you know, hopefully not so. Hopefully not so. But I mean, it's a mixed bag as to what happens. I think the most important thing is getting the voter turnout. The problem has been, I think with the Democrats and the Progressives and people on the extreme left, is that there is no one uniting ideology, okay? And the uniting ideology of the Federalists and the Conservatives has been, we hate the new society. We hate the new culture. We hate the rise of giving rights to people who never had rights before in the 1950s. And we don't like it. And we want things to go back the way they were. So that has been a uniting ideology. And there has not been a uniting ideology of the Democrats, because the Democrats have been, well, we need to be fair. We need to uphold the rule of law. We need to uphold the Constitution. Those are not propositions that get people out to vote. Okay? They're just too rational. I think I agree that the Democrats don't have a uniting ideology. And I'm not so sure that I think that the values that the Democrats articulate, I don't know. I don't know what I think that's the Democrats. I think Democrats say that, but that they too have the idea we need to win. And so then they do stuff to win, and sometimes that's fair. But I feel like that this is an argument for why we need more party, why we need a system that allows representation in the government of different, of multiple parties. As the Democrats want to adopt an ideology that will get people on board, they, except for national elections, I mean, yeah, they might find themselves at a complete disadvantage on local, more and more of a disadvantage on local level. Well, Professor Randall, I've talked to you about this. I'm not sure you want the Italian system either. I mean, multiple or the Israeli system. We can go through country by country. We can go through a list of systems. I agree with Jeff on that too. We can go through a list of systems that we will start listing systems that work. And that just like we designed a system that we thought would work, we could design a system that would work better for who we are and give us multiple representation. There's no reason, especially when you consider the fact that we really only have a one-party system. We have two branches of the same party, capitalism. Democrats represent capitalism, Republicans represent capitalism, and so we only have one party. Just like communists have multiple branches of their party. Come on, come on, the Republicans. The Republicans say that we've got a bunch of socialists, a small number of socialists in Congress. Come on. In our last, yeah, that that is that's the that we beat Democrats and people with who don't know any better. Okay, in our last minute, final thoughts. What words of wisdom, things to think about, would you lead people with? David? Get out and vote and encourage everybody to vote so that we at least have better turnout and better representation of people's thoughts. Get your passport up to date. That's my advice. And Jeff, on that note, thank you all so much. Great insights, great thoughts, great humor. Come back and join us again in a couple of weeks. Think Tech Hawaii, Professor Randall, David Louie, Jeff Fortnoy. Thank you all. Thank you. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. 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