 My name is Janine Bertie Johnson and I serve as alumni director as well as director of campus ministries and as an admissions and development associate. Just a couple of housekeeping details before we get started. Please note that the webinar including questions is being recorded. If you have a technical concern at any time during the webinar please send a chat message to the AMBS host. If you have a comment or question for our speaker we asked that you please use the Q&A feature which you can find by hovering over the bottom of your screen. I'll be watching for those questions and comments and I'll select the ones that I asked Leah. So that all of you can see who else has joined the webinar. Please use the chat function to give your name, location and what years you were at AMBS. Make sure you have it set to go to all panelists and attendees, not just panelists. Turning now to the reason we are all here. Dr. Leah Thomas is assistant professor of pastoral care and contextual education. She came to AMBS this last fall from Lancaster Theological Seminary in Pennsylvania where she had been an instructor. Her research interests include anti-racist and intercultural pastoral care, trauma, culture, and the role of embodiment in caregiving and Christian spiritual practices. She is the author of Just Care, Ethical Anti-Racist Pastoral Care with Women with Mental Illness, based on her dissertation. Leah received Bachelor of Arts and Master of Divinity degrees from the University of Notre Dame and her PhD from Drew University. We are very excited that she has joined us at AMBS. Leah will start by answering several questions I have for her. After that, we will have time for your questions and comments. Remember, you can submit your questions at any time throughout the webinar by using the Q&A feature. Leah, welcome, and I invite you to start by just saying what you would like to tell us about yourself as an introduction. Well, thank you so much for that lovely introduction, Janine, and I just want to express my gratitude for the invitation to be a part of this webinar. It's wonderful to be able to connect with all of you alumni, and I hope that we're able to, at some point, meet one another in person, fingers crossed. Just in terms of an introduction, I guess I would sort of position myself as someone who has journeyed through life with a foot in the ministry world and also a foot in academia. And this is actually really important for me, and it's something that sort of allows one to feed into an impact the other. So you may or may not know I have experience as a chaplain in an inpatient psychiatric facility. I was a chaplain for nine years. I also have experience as a bivocational pastor. I've also created scripture reflection groups for college campuses, and all of these activities really caused me to reflect more deeply on ministry and on theology. And it was these experiences that sort of kept sending me back to the realm of academia first to get my MDiv, and then my time as a chaplain sent me to get my PhD because I had a whole lot of questions about ministry with people with mental illness and not a lot of answers. And I think the beautiful thing about this is my time in ministry also kind of fed back into my scholarship and continues to do that. So my time as a pastor allowed me to sort of try on a lot of the skills I was teaching in the pastoral care classroom. And to sort of open my eyes and open to my eyes to pastoral care as a communal activity and really forced me to think about what that meant and how one went about sort of facilitating that and encouraging that. And then that then led my scholarship and you know leads back into ministry. So anyway, that's a little bit about who I am and the experience I bring to this position. And again I'm just really thrilled to be here and really thrilled to have this conversation with all of you today. Thanks. I'm wondering if you can tell us a story about when you experienced God in a powerful way. So thank you so much for that question. As I, as I was reflecting on this, this question it's, it's kind of a difficult one right because there's in one sense there's been many times when I've experienced God in a powerful way that actually led me into ministry. And I began ministry at the tender age of 14, giving retreats for other junior high kids so there's been a sense in which God has always been a really active part of my life and I've just experienced the presence of God in so many different ways. But if I had to choose an experience that was actually more recent and connected to actually me ending up at AMBS, it would be my whole the process of sort of coming out here and discerning this position I, you may or may not know I interviewed over zoom the entire process was over zoom it was in the midst of a global pandemic. I had never seen the campus. They had heard really good things about it but had not experienced it for myself. And so, after the interview, my spouse and I, right when the sort of restrictions were lifted my spouse and I made a trip out to AMBS. And, but even then you know it was there was no one there really they were so kind to sort of have some courtyard socially distant gathering so I could meet a few people but I knew that I couldn't really get a sense of the community. You know the classroom and the chapel and so about halfway through the visit. I said to my spouse like I feel like I just need to go sit in the chapel for a little while like I just feel this like, and so I asked them to open up the chapel for me, and I just sat in that beautiful space. And the only way I can describe it was that it was this very palpable sense of the spirit of God, the presence, and I'm even getting a little teary eye talking about it and this sort of, this sort of invitation, like this is your next step. And so I sort of left the chapel after after praying for quite a bit and I was walking back across the chat across the campus to one of the guest houses and on my way I saw this socially distant gathering of students. They were all women, and they kind of invited me to join them. Rachel Miller Jacobs was also a part of that gathering and they were talking about the myths of society and culture that sort of stood in the way of them being able given to their God given identity as daughters of God and I joined them for this gathering and it was this sense of like confirmation right this is a place that I want to be and this is a place where God is present and active and while I, you know, none of us can see the road ahead sometimes you get a little glimpse of your next step. So, I was just so grateful to have that experience to kind of guide me towards my next step. Beautiful. So this kind of fits into that whole conversation but what attracted you to be part of the AMBS community. Thank you for that question yeah it does kind of flow nicely there. So, partly at the very beginning of the process of applying for this position it was actually the position itself that attracted me. As I spoke to earlier, I'm someone that's always had a foot in ministry and a foot in academia. And when I looked at this position, the fact that it was not only a position to be an assistant professor of pastoral care, but that it was also supervising students who are in ministry placements. It felt like it was allowing me to sort of bring my full self to the position like all of my experiences were welcome in this place. And that was something that just truly attracted me to AMBS. And then as I sort of got deeper into the process. I mean I myself have been a lifelong pacifist, even though I was raised Catholic I was literally the student on the Notre Dame campus that was protesting the existence of ROTC. Even as an undergrad so this has been something that has been with me my entire life I have always been an advocate for non violence and peace building and so. I've always admired the inner Baptist tradition sort of from afar so to be able to sort of join with a community that really shared my commitments to both peace and justice was very important to me, and then as I got to know AMBS in particular, I was so impressed that they had intention like an intentional commitment to both interculturality and anti racism. And for AMBS it was not just like pretty words and I'll say that because I've been a part of other seminaries where they talk a lot about this, but they don't actually put any resources toward it, and they don't actually do any kind of exploration of the racism and a lack of integral attention to interculturality in their own institutions. And so the existence of I see you are the fact that that was involved in the interview process, both of those things were just enormous for me. And then as I met the community as I met other scholars who are working around issues that I found really important as I met the staff, and as I met the students. I just found this, this real sense of sort of desire to really live the gospel. And I wanted to be a part of that mission. And finally, the other thing that really struck me about AMBS and the way that I found it different from other seminaries I had worked in is that they're very they were very intentional about their connection to the broader church and they that their scholars were also working within the broader church and you know what other places I had taught, there was sort of a separation between the seminary and the church and sort of never the to show me so to speak. But I just found that really important and because if what we're teaching and what we're studying doesn't hit the ground, right if it doesn't affect what's going on in the local church then what are we doing. So for me, I just found that to be, again, a community I really wanted to be a part of that was reflection, you know engaging in reflection and had a lot of intentionality and engagement around how what they were doing and teaching really affected people and affected the local church. We've had a question come in already that I want to insert here because it seems to fit well with your the stories you're telling so far. Orlando reticop is wondering if you can tell any stories of doubts or faith doubts or other struggles that you've experienced in your life. Thank you Orlando. Thank you for that question Orlando. That's a wonderful question. Yes, I'm happy to do that. I was privileged to give a testimony and ABS chapel and I talked a few weeks ago and I talked a little bit about some of the doubts and the struggles I've experienced. In particular that was actually very difficult occurred when I moved to Lancaster to be a visiting professor of cost real care Lancaster theological seminary, and when literally within a week of moving there. I sustained a really serious concussion. And this was one where I actually ended up to I ended up developing post concussion syndrome. And if you don't know a lot about that I'll just save you the research and say that I was pretty much in a dark room for about a month and a half they told me not to read, not to look at any screens and try not to think those were the instructions. And then when I was allowed to sort of leave the dark room. And that was like both day and night I couldn't read I it hurt me to think it hurt me to be on the computer. I couldn't teach for about a semester. I literally had some colleagues who took my courses and just taught them for me. And I didn't seem to be getting any better. You know everything I was reading was saying like I should have been better and you know it just takes time or whatever and I was seeing doctors and they couldn't give me a lot of reassurance. And, you know, at that point, it was really a very dark time for me I had just finished my PhD. Oh my gosh, perhaps I have done this whole degree for nothing and perhaps my call is not to teach pastoral care and it threw me into this kind of existential crisis and I, I tried to sort of lament and I definitely lamented I mean, the lament Psalms were very good friends at that point. And I lamented and lamented. And honestly, to me, God seemed eerily silent. And it was that time when I sort of, and I will talk a little bit about this later but I had some mentors I was seeing a therapist I had a spiritual director who were kind of like encouraging me to go more towards my body towards practices of embodiment towards things like mindfulness. I had been someone who had practiced yoga for quite a bit and I found that yoga was one of the things that would help my headaches and I pretty much had headaches every single day chronic headaches so I sort of started to explore more about that. And I started to kind of tune into my body and and and to do that to sort of deal with the pain initially but as I started to progress it really led me to a point where I started to ask larger questions about the role of the body in Christian spirituality, both historically and currently and sort of where was the body. And why didn't it seem like the Christian tradition had a lot to offer me with chronic pain. So, so to to answer your question to make a long story which is probably perhaps longer than you might have anticipated but short. It was a dark time it was a time of a lot of doubts and unknowing. It's honestly, you know, I'm very familiar with pain now and but at the same sent in, you know, but sort of where it took me was sort of through that darkness. To this new place it was sort of like my spirituality kind of got burst open and expanded beyond my comfort zone and has really impacted sort of where I'm going not just personally but as a scholar and as a teacher. So, so sort of both and really dark in the moment and also transformative. So I'll just stop there. Thank you. I'd like you to describe the classes that you're teaching this year and just tell us a little bit about each one. You want to start with the fall semester and then come to this semester. I'm happy to do that. It's funny how these questions sort of like lead into one another, because I was just sort of talking about how I got into embodiment and studying about the body and Christians spirituality and then in the fall in BS was gracious enough to actually let me teach you a little bit about some of the things that were titled somatic spiritual practices in the time of coven, which was really recognizing that I mean when we're honest and the history of Christianity has a very complex relationship with the body. So some have been raised with the belief that sort of the spiritual realm is separate from or opposed to the body, or that you know union with God means we need to deny our bodies and transcend the flesh for this like kind of higher realms right. This is alongside of the fact that scholars of religion are increasingly recognizing that all of the spiritual practices that we undertake so whether that's worshiping in community reading the Bible contemplative prayer or other types of prayer. It only happened in and through our bodies. Like that's the only way we actually engage with God, and we exist in a Christian tradition right we have this assertion of this incarnational God who took on flesh, right. So in one sense, that should put embodiment at the center of our spirituality, but yet we sort of dualistic notions that you know the mind body dualism still really exists in in churches and in theological thought right so in this class really what I tried to do was sort of allow students to really like explore the relationship between Christian spirituality and embodiment. We looked at ways in which Christian spirituality can and has been practiced in and through bodies, and we also incorporated insights from the realm of somatic psychotherapy, and asked how they might inform some of our spiritual practices. I organized the classes around the senses. So students kind of like walked through each of the senses they engaged in mindful eating and listening and singing and walking. They looked at touch site and kind of we talked about how these are mediums for connection with the divine. Janine was actually in this class. So you can you can follow up with her if you'd like the student perspective on it. But it was a powerful class to teach and be a part of particularly in the time of coven when we are so disconnected from one another, and in one sense also, I think we've been disconnected from from embodiment and our bodies and so trying to sort of forge that connection through spiritual practices was a really powerful experience I think so. That was the first class I taught and I am teaching the ministry and church and world class some of you might be familiar with that and that's the class. And that's been both semesters that's the class that accompanies students in their ministry placements. So it really involves on the ground practical ministry experience and then students bring that to the classroom space and we engage in critical theological reflection on that practice. So they have onsite supervision and then they have kind of this peer supervision, we dig deeply into their ministry experience, and then we ask about input theological implications and other types of implications that might come out of their experience. So, this has been a really wonderful class because again it's allowed me to sort of keep a foot in the ministry realm and to really like be in touch with what's happening in terms of ministry during this very unique unprecedented time. And to also leave students and reflection on this ministry and hopefully come to sort of new insights and help what helps students to support one another during this really unique time so. So that's a class that I'm continuing to teach in our top with fall and spring. And then, right now, I am teaching the intro the pastoral care pastoral care one. Briefly, that's in this class and really trying to introduce students to a method for a practice of intercultural anti racist pastoral care across the lifespan. So, I'm sort of urging students you know in one sense we're looking at, of course at the internal dynamics that occur between caregivers and care seekers at the dynamics that occur within communities. And we're like kind of holding that alongside the current like cultural socio political multi faith postmodern reality that both individuals and communities inhabit. And it's my opinion that like, all of this is necessary in terms of the way that we carry out our pastoral spiritual care. So I'm sort of attempting to put classical models of pastoral care into dialogue with embedded and live theology is about the care seeker and the caregiver and also this social and cultural analysis. And to ask how when we are attentive to culture. What does that do it to our caregiving how does it change our interactions. And recognizing that both ourselves and the people we minister with have been influenced by different cultures social context origins and we are all composites of these like strands of ethnicity race geography culture socio economic setting right and so if we try to expand our traditions and hold all of this. How does that and how might that impact the way that we see and approach our pastoral and spiritual care. So, those are the classes that I am teaching right now. Thanks, and I will say that the fall class on somatic spiritual practices was just a wonderful experience I hope you get to teach it again hopefully not in a time of coven. At least a third of the class were alumni auditing the class using their alumni audit. What do you call that when you have it's a it's a good thing for alumni to be able to do that to sit in on classes that once, especially those that weren't offered when they were students. So my next question for you Leah is, what is what are some of your dreams for ambience. Thank you. Thanks for that question. So, as I'm getting to know ambience more and more. I'm realizing that in some ways, the Mennonite church and ambience in particular is sort of like a best kept secret in terms of. So, and this is what I mean by that. Sort of, you know, I've taught in a UCC Seminary, I've taught in a UMC Seminary and both of these churches have traditions that really like hold up commitments to justice and also to peace. But at the same time they don't have the sort of in depth scholarship and frameworks around peace building. They don't have this rich like history of peace theology. And I think because they don't have this more sort of in depth approach to these concepts. Many times they inadvertently can participate in violence, either in terms of their processes within the institution or even larger right in larger ways. And even if they're not kind of participating in violence right the, the sort of the lack of depth in these areas, you know, basically means that these are commitments and many times their only commitments and words right that they don't they don't really, they don't have the sort of action steps to be able to carry these out in the world. And so I really one of my dreams is that the work of AMBS and the Mennonite church in particular would be available to those outside of the Mennonite church right like these treasures that I think are so necessary in this time and we're seeing so much. And I would call it interpersonal violence against once another one another, if not physically emotionally and sometimes even spiritually that that these commitments to non violence to peace building to non violent communication to ways of engagement that that privilege these kinds of values would be available to to other Christian traditions but even beyond that. AMBS has something to offer the world in terms of a method for going about this work of fostering peace and I would love to see that be available to other Christian, like I said other groups and also to society at large. Thank you. Before we turn to questions from the participants in the webinar, I'm wondering if you have any questions for our alumni. Thank you Janine. Yes, I do actually. So as I spoke to earlier one of my passions is, you know, in turn is looking at your experience in seminary at AMBS and asking sort of, what was most helpful as it in terms of how it translated into whatever your vocation was post AMBS so if you were if you were in the ministry, or you did some sort of other vocation like what, what did you take with you what was most helpful. And then on the flip side, what do you wish you had more of while in seminary. So, that would be my first question anyway. All right, we are now ready to turn to questions that you ask. And remember that you should put those in the Q amp a feature if you want to make a comment as well you're welcome to add it there. The first one comes from Mary, Mary Beth banner. And she says congregational pastors today can choose to have available to them a swirling amount of updates about their congregants from social media posts is pastoral attentiveness to social media from congregants, helpful, helpful or helpful to a pastor's vocation. And then how do you instruct seminary students to prepare to offer pastoral care to a church by navigating and or avoiding a daily influx of social media information posted by members of the congregation. Thank you, Mary Beth. Mary Beth, what a great question. And this is one, I wish I could say, here's the answer. This is one I think we're really continuing to struggle with. And maybe struggle is the wrong word. It's one that really continue to kind of engage with because here's the thing right digital technology and social media they are fundamentally changing who we are, like, and how we interact with and I believe they raise theological questions right. And they raise questions about sort of what it means to be in relationship with one another how we relate to God how we understand relationships right how we understand forgiveness with an internet that has a history that lasts forever right so there are such large, large questions that I think we, we need to be asking us as pastors and theologians. And I think, and yours is also one of them right so, so we sort of, in my opinion, no need to be stepping back and say, and I'm sort of observing what's happening with digital technology during this pandemic right and, you know, sometimes I feel like there's, we have two sides of this like we have some people are like it's evil. This is my father actually feels this way, it's evil and we should just get rid of it. And then there's people like, it's awesome. It's, you know, it's solving all of our problems right and, and like with many issues I feel like it's, you know, there's truth in both of those things like it were somewhere in the middle it is changing the way we relate to each other. There's ways that we could not have been in contact we could not be having this webinar without technology today right like I never would have met all of you you never would have met me without technology. It's allowing people to be connected in a time of of social and physical distancing right. And so, so there's ways it's really, you know, enhancing and helping us to sort of regain and some sort of humanity in the midst of a very dehumanizing experience, and that we all can probably name many of the drawbacks right and the social media scrolling the things that are shared that are inappropriate, and that are harmful, and the ways it can promote sort of addiction right and so so it's like, how are we first So I think the first question is sort of like, how are we doing theological reflection on digital technology and and what, what kind of questions are we asking. And even, I mean I think we could even step back even further and ask like how is it even working right, the fact that I only see news media that agrees with me right how does that shape me right ethically morally right so these types of questions, I think we need to be reflecting on both personally but also in the context of Christian communities and asking sort of real questions about about digital technology. So, you know, your question is wonderful in terms of like what do I recommend or teach in terms of social media in the classroom and so partly what I do is sort of what we just did like, I want to step back and I want there to be this larger conversation on digital technology that we need to bring to this, because I think it then informs how we relate to it right and I actually draw from a scholar called her name is Kate ought. She was a mentor of mine a true and if you're looking for someone who's kind of trying to analyze the digital technology in terms of a Christian social ethics lens, I check her out she just published a book a couple years ago. Anyway, but she's, she frames it and says her overarching question right is, what does God require of each of us to do or be in the world. And then, how is my engagement with digital technology helping or hindering that right so obviously that's a big question and people are going to answer that differently. For some pastors, it may mean like, like social media is not actually a healthy thing for them, right, and that they'll do sort of the, you know, they'll engage if they need to write but, but for whatever reason it's not really like helping them to be who God is is calling them to be in the world like I know pastors who don't have a Facebook page who literally like they they opt out, right and, and I want to and I, I kind of encourage them to like talk about that like what is that about right and I think that's another question is sort of asking, when we make decisions about how we engage with social media what's it actually about like what's at the root of our decisions right. And then for other folks, they're very much engaged with social media and, and they're very they're posting a lot and they're using it sort of as another pulpit, and, and they're very attentive to their congregants and their updates or that's how they facilitate a lot of their relationships, but I think for them to it is in this answer to this like what does God require of them and, and how is it helping them to be who God has calling is calling them to be in the world right. So, I think there's a lot of answers to your question and I think it can look different because we all bring a unique skill set personalities social and cultural context to social media and we have a different relationships with social media so I, I tend to say there's not like one answer for every pastor, I think there's a lot of different answers that can be sort of just sort of positive and life giving ways of interacting with social media. And at the same time, I really just encourage people to sort of do the theological reflection around their use of social media and around these sort of larger questions about digital technology in general. Thank you. The hiring asks if you have any resources you'd recommend for accompanying people who have left the church and want to process what felt like a codependent relationship with the church and or with God. Thank you, Ken. Great question Ken. So, you know, there's so many ways we could approach that question. And there's so many reasons because here's the thing right. I think I always say about pastoral care is that it's so context is so important. You know, the thing that feminist a moment is pastoral, the eludions have given us in the last 20 years is this real attentiveness to that we, we cannot kind of evaluate pastoral scenarios without attention to context, because context changes are so important in everything. And context involves sort of the personal but also the interpersonal, but then these like larger systemic social and cultural and political forces that surround us right so there are so many reasons that people leave churches. And each story I hear is fairly unique. There's a lot of similarities like there's a lot of different there's a lot of different reasons. And, and I think part of the way that we do we sort of address this right is that we have to do it in a context by context basis because for some people, like, for instance, I could for many people, I would say, leaving a church is a quite painful experience like you noted there could be dynamics of codependency there. There could be a lot of other dynamics, there could have been dynamics of abuse of sexual misconduct of emotional abuse right. And at the same time, while all of this exists. There's a grief process that many people walk through, because the church was a home of sorts for them a spiritual emotional kind of familial home. And so, many times right when I work with folks who have left a church, I look towards grief literature, because whether you want to use Kubler Ross is like stages of grief or you want to look at Warden who's a grief psychotherapist who kind of talks about tasks of grief. There are, in a sense, it's it's this like grief process that many people need to walk through right. Here's the here's a catch to that though. There's a trauma involved in someone's decision to leave the church or trauma occurred within the context of that church. Sometimes a grief approach could actually exacerbate that right because we now know that having someone retell their trauma narrative actually can retraumatize them. And so that's why we're looking to other forums of intervention when we're talking about being trauma sensitive and approaching issues where trauma might be there. So this is why I think context is is very important. I'm happy to sort of pass along a variety of different resources that I sort of turn to when I'm dealing with folks that have left a religious community. But I, I guess I also want to hold the fact that I kind of can't prescribe a one size fits all solution either or even a one size fits all resource, because individual circumstances and contexts are so incredibly different when it comes to this decision. Thanks for that question. Yes. David Myers asks how do historical and contemporary Anabaptist theology and practice inform your teaching in the practice of ministry in Mennonite churches. Thank you. Thanks for that question David I really appreciate it. So, you know, as I think about both historical and contemporary and Anabaptist theology and practice, we all know there's not, you know, it's sort of a tricky question because there's not one. And we know the wide variety of different types of both theological persuasions and practices honestly within the different communities and within the different geographical locations and then as they journeyed some of them journey to the US so and then globally. So, as I try to think about how Anabaptist theology and practice inform my teaching I sort of, I turned to folks who sort of try to like hone it down and sort of like what are the essential components and then how might those informed pastoral care really the sort of ecclesial lot sort of the ecclesiology and the ecclesial focus of Mennonite theology is very important, alongside the commitment to peace and justice race this piece theology this can this being a peace church in the world. And, and everything that has come along with that. And then also you know the biblical and Christological really focus on the Anabaptist tradition. And so those are sort of the three areas that I kind of ask and interrogate in terms of like what does that mean in terms of my teaching and practice around pastoral care in Mennonite churches and communities. You know, actually, I think the Mennonite church and, and the focus on the community right the community of believers has is actually one of the things that pastoral care is kind of late coming to it's really only been in the last 20 years that pastoral care is not just an individual, you know, ordained minister to care seeker kind of thing it's actually the function of the entire church the function of the entire community that we are all providing pastoral care to one another and that, and how do we do this as a community. And so pastoral care in a sense, sort of realized this in the last 20 years but the Mennonite church has known this for a really long time so. So anyway, I sort of, in a sense, like, ask Mennonites to kind of bring that experience of ministry within and among the community like to the pastoral care classroom right so so what does it mean this very tangible sense that Mennonites have of the power of community. And what does that mean in terms of pastoral care and what does it mean in terms of the relationship between an ordained minister, or not, right. Some, you know, and, and the wider church community. You know the historical commitment, I spoke a little bit about this earlier to peace theology and that and the various manifestations that is taken. And there's various scholars that have have written on this and, but, you know, for me, this commitment to peace theology really informs my approach to pastoral care and of course you know, most models of pastoral care would privilege nonviolent modes of communication right, but what does it mean to have a church where that is sort of at the very heart of who they are. And so how does that inform the types of theories and communication that we're going to privilege in the classroom. So, on the flip side of this though, I think it's really important that this commitment to peace theology throughout time has also meant that many the anabaptist tradition, in my opinion has a history of communal trauma. And so I wonder about how that legacy of collective and communal trauma throughout time continues to inform the practice of pastoral caregiving and the practice of the church. And so for me, I think this affects my teaching because it really privileges the fact that we need to have a good awareness of trauma and collective trauma in order to then proceed in ways that are trauma sensitive in our church communities. Because as we know as we now know trauma gives can and frequently does go beyond the sort of one on one encounter that it can happen in the context of communities and does happen. And so, so that also just informs my approach to teaching, particularly in this Mennonite environment. And then, you know, finally, and, and I definitely not least, you know, the importance of the Bible and pastoral care and this is something that's, you know, in a sense it's sort of debated among pastoral care scholars you can actually read some pastoral care textbooks that don't even mention the Bible. I mean it's sort of like, you know, pastoral care is sort of its own little thing and we're trying to put like theology in dialogue with with, you know, the social sciences notably psychology. But there's a definite like lack of attention. And so, for me, you know, in terms of teaching in a Mennonite seminary and preparing people for ministry in the Mennonite church you have to delve into what is the role of the Bible and pastoral care right And so, you know, some methods would sort of see it as this, just this tool that sort of like informs but you know, you have to kind of take into account the centrality of the living word in Mennonite communities so how does the Bible sort of contribute to the goals and the process and the content of what's happening in a pastoral encounter. And then, and also like recognizing that when we're talking about pastoral care, particularly in like a one on one setting but even in a communal setting we're sort of, we're dealing with sort of the living text right the documents of people's lives right. And so, how does the way that we approach the Bible inform the way that we embark on our pastoral care. So the way that we explore the text of people's lives right the way that we are attentive to the social and cultural surroundings that might have influenced them. Right the way that we reject a simple literalist interpretation of what we're hearing but sort of try to break it open and encourage them to have agency over their own story, and to bring the sacred story of their life into dialogue with divergent stories of traditions. So, so anyways that's a brief answer to your very in depth question, but briefly I would say that's that's sort of how Mennonite theology and practice kind of informs my teaching. I love that idea that we look at people's lives with some of the same tools that we look at the text, thank you for that. Paul Lutty is interested in hearing more about your studies on mental illness and pastoral care and Paul has worked with the Disabilities Network for many years so he brings a special passion for this thank you Paul. No Paul we're going to have to get coffee because I don't want to take up all of the rest of our time here but um, so I think I mentioned that I was a pastoral caregiver in this psychiatric inpatient psychiatric facility for about nine years. And, you know, it was actually that experience that brought me back to do my PhD because I kept sort of having these fraught conversations with other chaplains about like how do we provide care in this setting and what do we do with people who are hearing voices right or seeing demons and like how how do we minister with people who have major depressive disorder or are diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and throw things at us right we were having these very fraught conversations. And at the heart of this for me to is this recognition that like I ministered mostly mostly with women, but that they were sort of at the center of like a number of marginalizing forces. So, okay they were women, they were frequently of color, they were, you know, from many of them were from limited economic means. They struggled with severe mental illness they most likely had like a presence of violence somewhere in their past right so how do you offer care right that holds intention their unique social location. I think Ozagh Nugra writes about the fact that stressors such as those like racism sexism presence of violence poverty can bring on many of the things we turn mental illness right so how do you hold that their unique social location alongside these intense stressors that may have contributed to them even developing mental illness right and how do you do this in a way that sort of is attentive to both. And then also how do you do it in the context of a society and particularly in a hospital where like the western medical model is sort of the model that rains supreme. But yet we also know that the western medical models frequently and attentive to these issues of race and class and culture. And, and so like, how do we sort of hold the humanity of the person in front of us in the midst of the uncanny. That's what one author talks about and sort of how do we, how do we do that. So I actually interviewed about I agreed like 17 psychiatric chaplains to try to kind of get at how they try to do that. There are a number of different things. And one is which you know, they see their mission as sort of how do I like seek out the humanity in the midst of what can be a very chaotic world and a chaotic existence right. So they saw themselves as sort of like standing up for the humanity of the person in the midst of a system that was very reductionistic. And sometimes something that I noticed in my interviews was so I interviewed mostly white caregivers and white chaplains. They had a really difficult time talking about the concept of race and racial identity and how it might impact what they were doing or the counter. And they were frequently in situations where they as the white caregiver were ministering to people of color, and yet they had a really hard time talking about race and by a hard time I mean like of the 17. So it was, let me get this right there were 13 white people I interviewed. Over half of them couldn't even talk about race they just switched the subject entirely like they talked about socioeconomic status one of them talked about gay and lesbian issues right. They didn't, and they I think it wasn't even conscious right, and the others who tried to talk about it had difficulty talking about it, only two people could really do give a sizable reflection that sort of incorporated a teniveness to the impact of, and this is one social factor that I think it's really important to have a kind of a specific race on what they might be doing. And so, for me, it really started to I started to ask the question like, Wow. How are we developing care that is attentive to all of these realities so attentive to this presence of mental illness, right. So, the social and cultural factors that have surrounded this and continue to surround the pastoral encounter and continue to impact the ways that we interact with each other. And so, anyway, if you want to check it out actually wrote a book. The book I wrote was just care and it's, it's a model it's sort of the theory behind maybe how to begin to hold these tensions. It's sort of a larger frame when we're talking about particularly ministry with people with mental illness and I've actually focused on women with mental illness so how to sort of to hold these many factors together. I've been told I need to write a volume to that's more like on the ground like because I had to do a lot of theoretical work to kind of get where I wanted to go, but I will stop there but please know you can reach out to me about this I'm happy to talk more about it. Yes, so much that could be said there. Ken Hawkely has sent a question. He's asking about the dynamic of physical and social isolation and what impacts that has in pastoral care. And he said he's aware that this has been a research interest in terms of older people. But now more people are becoming interested in it because of the pandemic and I'll note that we're near the end of our time so if you want to just give a brief answer, and maybe I can put you in touch with him later to give more. But we have a couple more questions to ask as well. Thank you, Ken. Thank you for that question Ken. Wow, I mean what an important question right now. When we're kind of seeing, we're all, we're all experiencing right what the impact of social and physical isolation is is sort of how it's impacting our minds our bodies our spirits. I mean, a short sort of simple answers is we know that, and we have known right that we were created for connection, and we were created to be in relationship. And social science tells us this this is the way we evolved to be in relationship and into communities, particularly in small communities and so when we are deprived of that we just know that it affects us mentally, physically, spiritually, physiologically right it's it impacts us negatively. And I've been very attentive to sort of this pandemic and, and we now know I mean like mental health issues are off the charts right now. And even those who are kind of like in therapy right. I know that I'm hearing more and more and from more and more people there's difficulty sleeping difficulty focusing sort of a feeling of malaise or a feeling of like, literally just sort of like all of the this sort of. Now I think there's there's many reasons for this and I think we have a lot of cortisol and adrenaline running through our veins and we weren't created to have those stress hormones for long periods of time and so I think when we have those stress hormones and fear for long periods of time it affects us that way right, but I think it's exacerbated by the fact that we are not able to be connected to one another. And that that actually regulates our nervous system that connection with other people. And when we are separated from others we have no ability to regulate this elevated these elevated levels of stress so I could say more but yes, I just want to say this is, this is really, really affecting us. And I think we will see a lot coming out of this around those types of issues. Thank you for bringing that up. I have to send some of these questions to Leah to answer outside of the webinar but our final one for today comes from this wide man. And he asked, would you care to comment about particularly theological commitments or treasures that you described earlier that you bring out of the traditions that have formed you. The faith traditions that have formed you. Wow, thank you for that question. I was someone who was raised raised Catholic and made a very sort of intentional decision to leave the Catholic Church for a number of reasons. Not limited to the hierarchy the way that power is sort of distributed there. There are basically inability to fully condemn violence, sexuality and gender stances. I could go on, but I don't want to dwell on negative what I will say is what I did glean from the Catholic tradition that I bring with me is the sacredness of all right so that we are all created in the image of God and that the entire world, right that we encounter God in and through the world around us, and that what if we were to see this world as sort of God's fingerprint right, how would that change the way that we are with the world and if we saw each person we encountered as sort of the face of Christ and that the presence of God lives within them like how it is that affect how we are in the world. As I then sort of journeyed toward the UCC, and I'm presently a member in discernment in that process I really appreciated something I talked to earlier this, the theological commitment to, to peace and to justice in this world that the world is both already and not yet but how are we partnering with God to bring about this God's shalom like this, this kingdom, where all are valued right where the lion can lay down with the lamb. So, and then, in terms of sort of sort of alongside that commitment is just this, you know, in terms of my own image of God right. So we're recognition that we only even experience God in and through the power of the spirit. And so, how are we, how do we foster more attentiveness to I think the spirit of life that is constantly urging and inviting each one of us to a more life giving stances to, to live into our identity as as co creators and as kind of God right so I'm very just taken with like ways that we open ourselves up both like individually and community, community to the presence of the spirit whom I believe is constantly just sort of flowing around among between us, and kind of like urging us forward to be God's witness in the world. So, I'll stop there, but thank you for that question. Thank you Leah for answering all of these questions and giving us an insight into your work at MBS. And thanks to all of you who've joined us today. Thank you for your ongoing support of MBS for your prayers and your financial support and your influence on other donors. Thank you for tapping people on the shoulder that you think should consider summary study you as our alumni are our most important influencers in the church. This is that our pastors and leaders event is coming up in two weeks, and in April, May and June will be having virtual alumni reunions by decades. Watch for more information on those. Thanks to all of you for joining us this afternoon and thanks also to student Becca Baratu who has provided technical support. This concludes our third Thursday conversation for February. Have a wonderful day.