 The only person we're missing is Senator White and I know she knows about the meeting, so hopefully she'll join us It might be helpful just to go around the table and introduce each other Ourselves so this have been on this committee. We have other new faces I'm Brian Collamore one of the state senators from Rutland County I'm here as a representative of the ACNC services I'm Suzela I'm the state chief performance officer and the governor's point key on this committee John Blasek I'm the state representative for Melton Ready Brock state senator Franklin County and Alberg And on the phone Hi, this is Emily Cornhizer a state representative from Brattleboro and currently in Washington, DC Betsy and Rask is sitting to the right of Drew so we're together to talk a little bit about the training The last time we met I think we were in Senate government operations and this is something that we have Hoped to get accomplished for gosh the last two years three years This is sort of a committee. I think that it's had stops and starts along the way in terms of being able to get buy-in from all hundred eighty legislators, so today is focused on a Renewed effort if you will to get some training for legislators Yes Training So John Randy and Alice I know have not Undergone any training and in this area correct Not with Vermont. I have elsewhere. Okay And Emily are did you go through anything? Yeah, I'm actually an RBA trainer. Oh, that's right Representative Townsend did let me know that and I think senator white has also Gone through some of the training so Drew and Sue are Here to help us along because I think without their assistance we'd be somewhat rudder less so I want to thank them both for for being here and I'll just open up the Floor to anybody that wants to chip in I Just wanted to say quick as Off the gate here or whatever that I'd cross out RBA training and not put in on anything at any At all because we know that legislators glaze over when they see those initials And so I've spoken with drew about that a bit that we need to come up with a different name for this training And maybe not even call it a training Maybe call it a workshop or something like that But I think it's really important that we try and move away a bit from the whole RBA Well, that's very interesting because I just spent an hour and a half yesterday on the phone with the province of Ontario with their children and family and business office people who are trying to They're looking at what other what states are doing and and they're referring to is as outcomes You know, yeah, which is at least that gets us away from the RBA word or acronym But yet it still stays consistent with the language that we use I I think that it's wise to Be as as free as jargon and free of jargon as possible and to focus on the principles and behind the work and I think that Has another benefit which is acting as an even broader umbrella for Methodologies that can include but are not exclusive to results based accountability And one of the reasons why I think that's critical is because Vermont has a history of using RBA that is actually quite steeped in not always Well, it's steeped in the relationship between Funders and fundees so the United Ways in Vermont use results based accountability It's part of their accountability mechanism for grants the agency of human services, which is undergoing a grants management reform Will also be using results based accountability and I think it's correct Yeah, I think it's correct as representative Brunstead stated to Pitch this and do this in a way that is larger than RBA But to keep space reserved for the fact that some methodologies some language some jargon actually does work quite well in the state And that's an asset. We should continue to support So I agree. Let's let's not use the RBA language when we talk about the types of skills We're trying to develop in the legislature and across the branch. Let's use not use lean line Let's try to be methodology agnostic And I hope that this workshop series that we will talk about today That's that even within the administration we started We're it with the start administration of expanding the use of You know outcomes and indicators down to the program level by also incorporated, you know lean and so we've rebranded all of it just simply continuous improvement because Two reasons one As the chief performance officer, I want all of this initiative and all the training we're doing we've trained over We've trained over a thousand employees in the basic I Wanted to outlist that outlast the Scott administration and not have happened what? Happened with the previous, you know worthwhile, but maybe not as Knowledgeably created effort, which was challenges for change, you know which Governor Shumlin threw out on day one of his administration. So All the effort that we've put in all over all these are my five years of CPO I really like to have this embedded in the culture both of the legislature and the administration And so one of the ways you do that is you don't brand it with a particular Initiative name or you know program or something. It's just part of what you do. I Think that's a really important point to and talking about impact and accountability In the legislature, I think can help us not just move toward performance improvement, which is important But also to really clearly articulate with each other why we're doing what we're doing and what our goals are So that we can have conversations that are more focused in order to both Preserve resources within the building, but also clarify and hit better when whatever we're doing leads the building Everyone understands account whether or not the question is government accountable and Are we how are we doing on performance? I mean, I think every every all of our constituents as well as the people in the building and that's what really matters, right? If I could just a couple of words that I think are important you mentioned the workshop series series the workshop right and you use the terminology so continuous improvement So both yeah underscoring that this is not the work is not a one-shot kind of deal that we're Envisioning that's right. Yeah, and so what I've just passed out and Emily you have this. I know that you have access to this as well is Kind of an overview of what representative from stead corn hyzer and I have been talking about relative to this series and this launch That our last conversation that I think representative Townsend just mentioned the last time this group was together down in the government Operations then a government operations committee room. We talked about wouldn't it be great if we had Basically a couple of opportunities for engaging legislators in the fall and winter and so that's what's here Impact and accountability rather than using the language of RBA Using inquiry and data to make responsive Responsible policy. So this is basically the idea that asking better questions and Thinking up front about the data or the possibility of measurable change over time thinking about that up front It's going to help make sure that the legislation passed here and that and the implications for the executive branch are well understood And that we really can really can account over time for the changes Whether those are what we anticipated and intended or not and that that will be instructive towards guiding policy change in future We want to make this as applied as possible, so not spending a lot of time This this referee to engagement opportunities. It was a workshop series that we're calling it We want to make sure that people are actually practicing and applying concepts and tools together Rather than just hearing concepts are being taught new language So that when we all walk through each of these sections But I hope that you'll see that this is really about using real examples of legislative language Welcome senator white Construction that I thought Well That's what our summers are known for right? Spending that money I'm fine. Thank you So we were just starting to move through and you came here at a perfect time. Oh, of course What a sort of overall design could be for a couple of Legislative workshops workshop series starting in the fall that would be About practicing new concepts and skills associated with impact and accountability broader than RBA more about the principle spirit and actual work that we can do together in the state house So the intent that I've written here does Is intended to convey a role for the government accountability committee so that there is a broad benefit which is just for Legislators in the building but also that the government accountability committee is seen as a resource For this work moving forward is seen as the site for champions to come together and to talk about government Accountability and that people start to see this this group as an opportunity in the new way We've talked a lot on this committee and you've written in your reports about using performance notes As a way to ensure that there's measurable accountability toward the intent of bills that are passed This is also an opportunity for us to talk about and actually practice what it could look like to use a performance note It's sort of a mock way So another intention here is that we create a platform for people to have conversations about What would be small innovations that are totally within our capacity to do that might actually help and support ledge council to Do their work to That we can just try out in the space and that the government accountability committee could be sort of advising around And then of course These work top series are always an opportunity to promote a shared language so that you could see in the future You know we've talked about the idea that there is a champion or multiple champions on every committee that is deeply interested in Committee hearings and bills moving through that are sound and that actually do demonstrate accountability and represent taking accountability so This first little grid that you see here the first table is really just a super high-level overview of what are we talking about when we say workshops When might they be who would come who would host and who would facilitate? So what you see is in the fall a one-day Impact and accountability workshop any interested legislator from either chamber could attend The point would be Oh So not the point but a way to get people there ideally would be for legislative leadership to invite people from both parties as we know Accountability is a totally non-partisan issue And so it would be amazing if we had invitations coming from everyone to everyone The host in general we're thinking about it's just being the government accountability committee It would be great to have the entire committee actually be able to attend And certainly there's opportunity for Introductions and closing by members of the by members of the committee You see a question mark here that I talked to Betsy Ann about briefly around Ledge council could Ledge council be a partner in hosting These workshops given that so much of what let's let council council is doing Is about drafting bills helping to suss out the language of intent and interacting with legislators from the earliest point in the draft request process Where a lot of this work could start to be done up front? So that's true. Can I jump in for just one second here? Yeah, I think it's really I Think it's really important this idea around just having it Having this first training be or workshop be longer and voluntary Because it's an opportunity for us to build more committed champions that we can continue to loop back to Throughout the rest of the sessions and so that the goal of this workshop is really to build build our bench of champions and really empower them to be thinking about this in a more holistic way And just to add on to that to what Emily just said we I had started last year Talking to people in every committee about being that champion on the house side And so my thought would be once we have a date that I would call those people Individually and just say hey I know that you agreed to this last year and this would be a great workshop if there's any way that you Make it for you to come to so that we try to get those champions to be at the table for that meeting at the very least Can you give me a little more idea what the champion I'm thinking of But how does it work in terms of you know if you have a committee that operates pretty much on it's a communal decision as to Which bills you take up and there's this person who's somebody said champion championing championing Over this a certain bill but not perhaps their own of course And I'm wondering how does that work in terms of it if the committee is thinking differently I would say it's not about the champion isn't about Championing a bill what they're there to do is to Be the person in the room who begins to ask questions with an accountability frame in mind so they ask So I think a few of us sort of already do this even by accident without doing explicitly so What is the clear intent of this bill? How will we know if we do this? In the sunset provision, are we asking the right questions to understand what we need to know about? results and outcomes So it's the person on that committee who is really sort of coaching the larger group to be asking those specific questions Whenever there's a bill on the table, right? It doesn't enter in at all to Priority ranking or any of that it's more our is this bill having the impact. We hoped it would have and How are we going to judge that and also talking with people like drew which I did on the child care bill It was going to drew and saying how are we going to measure this? How will we know if we did a good job or not? I mean I wanted us to know is this new funding actually having the impact We hope it'll happen if it isn't is there going to be a way for us to tweak it so that we can get it Right and so we talked about that and we put that in a section of the bill And so and and I would even say that I mean, you know, we have a lot of history of really You know well-meaning bills being passed and but they're not always clear on what the legislation legislatures intent is for For success, what are the second so they get handed to the administration and you know They can sit here and you scratch your head and you go well, okay I guess we'll build this program and and we don't come back we proverbial editorial we the Administration comes back a year later and the legislature is like well. That's not really what we were looking for you to do so I think Adding the the clear intent language and adding measures that oh, so you're looking for us to reduce XYZ TMDL's by 15% Then the administration knows what the expectations are and they already know on what basis their success will be Be reported So it's not as much of a guessing game as it has often been for you know for both parties It's also logistics. So for example last year we printed up these little colorful cards and colorful posters And it was just getting them out there So you give them to the champion they pass them out and then talk to the committee about what they mean And why we have them and oh, that's what we've done on the house side. I'm not sure how it went on the Senate side But Yeah, so that's good too, I mean I think whatever way it takes to get people talking about this is a positive Mm-hmm It might be helpful for those that weren't with us last year I remember a meeting where we sat around and we took If you give me I'm not gonna remember specifics, but two bills and we went through it Do you remember what was it raising this or smoking age? Yeah, one was very straightforward and then the other one was a more complicated bill I think that's right. Yeah, and we actually intend to do that same process in these workshops. Okay, so to actually have bill We talked about such or language that hasn't been passed, right? So we would have that we would have that again. We have bills that we could work in small groups To actually practice a process around and I think I'm glad that I'm glad that Emily underscored how important it is that the first training which we actually really are hoping is a full day and should have said training it's really a workshop Be filled with people that are genuinely interested who see government accountability as a fundamental part of what they're trying to do in the State House who believe that it's it's a winning message when they talk to their constituents about why they're here that it like is the Is an important intersectional issue across their their interest areas and so Those champions, I hope we would actually be able to empower within the workshop series to then in the winter when we do a two-hour impact and accountability workshop Those champions can actually help facilitate so that they will actually be playing out what it looks like to support their colleagues in Working through certain issues or talking about certain issues using different tools and winter means during session I'm not sure I left these broad intentionally because I don't know what you would all advise as the best time to come together to do this But yes, and then we talked about a follow-up convening also in the winter Where again interested legislators hopefully champions again This would be the champions third engagement with this and with us as a committee or you as a committee would come together And really think more specifically about how do we want this to play out over the session? And so in terms of timing to answer your questions specifically I'd open that back up to all of you One would be the best time to do a full day one would be the best time to do a two-hour We're hopefully we get broader engagement, but for a shorter period of time and then a follow-up Or you don't have to answer that right now, but it is an open question. Yeah If I could just toss on the table before we Get into the timing Question would there be something to be gained? It's a good idea bad idea Since at least in the house we have champions already pretty much identified understanding it's not a hundred percent, but you know Yeah effort was put into that To encourage the champions to reach out to a committee member a fellow committee member to come along Also, they would have some sense as to prove on the committee Might be a likely prospect as opposed to coming along, you know with a leash on screaming and That's why men wear ties And that would help build Yeah Representative corn hyzer, did you have thoughts about timing? I feel like I may have remembered you suggesting I Think we were talking about I mean whenever in the hall makes sense for people. I think Sort of November December people are starting to think more about going back to work Then in September October you want to be close enough that it feels Relevant for people who really just died back into their homeland and then in the for the shorter Everyone training we were talking about try to integrate it into that first week when there's sort of more Short-term mandatory training and see if we can mix it in with something there and definitely talking to leadership Junior rather than later to see if that's possible So in mid-November of the second year, you know, right before the second session of the biennium joint fiscal and ledge council do a You know the first year it's the new member orientation, but the second year It's just a briefing on where the state's at and you know, what's going on and so so Lots of members come not all of them come but what members come for that day so Maybe there's a way to work that so they might stay or or you don't and you know Whether you don't want to be that close to that day or whether you do I mean for the shorter session For the shorter session. Yeah, I know I mean for the day long, you know Could you oh could you make it to you know the day before the day after would that be too much? Would it be better to not have it be close to that other day? Someone with a Job having it separated would make it much easier for me with all you're about to say to that. Yeah Which so to me it seems like if we don't want to worry too much about whether we might want to try the first week in November When is the other one traditionally? Usually around the 15th the 17th Yeah, okay Cuz it cuz it's the same time as the one the first year and that has to be after elections, right? Right, so it's usually like the beginning of the third week something like that. Okay So that first week in November could work pretty well, it would be safe and then the one hour workshop or two hours So we we convene again on a Wednesday if I'm remembering correctly No, the second year on the Tuesday, that's right, and I'm not sure it so it should be Tuesday that first a Seventh yeah, I think it I think that's great There's advantages to Going right for it on that Tuesday, but there's probably disadvantages too. Yeah I wonder do you have a sense of what the other Shorter trainings are like I wonder if in terms of content there's a place that it makes more sense and might sink in or be more relevant But I wonder if they're a train. Is there any sort of training about how lunch council works? The second year I mean committees are already established Already got bills sitting there and actually how's the probes and how's the probe starts in December they start Happen to know December 16th So, I don't know Wednesday or Thursday that week maybe By then you've got committee State of the state of that week so the seventh you you come in and then the ninth is the state of the state Wow, and is the state of the state in the morning? It's two o'clock. Yeah, it's usually it's usually at two o'clock You know an hour So if our afternoon committees are gonna lose that day Let's make our morning committees lose that day, too. Yeah, that's true. I mean Yeah Yeah, so you're thinking like 930 10 o'clock in the morning. Yeah Yeah, on that Thursday, right and it'll be out for lunch and then go to the Those who wish to go to the state of the state And most people will attend that which means you have a better chance of a pool of people that would be available I don't know about fixing the date on the third one that might be a kind of a TV Yeah Okay, well that seems good. So we think in general the first week in November and then the same Before we leave that third meeting in time Would there be anything to be gained by at least thinking do we want to do it before? Town meeting day week break or after yeah, to at least help frame our thinking I think for you would be ideal, but if it is after it has to be immediately after I mean because things really get nutty And I do read before too, but the nice part about doing it right before is that you could ask questions That would help you when you go to town meeting to talk about how effective State government is and here's an example So I think I was going to a similar place in my mind I think that there's benefit to doing the follow-up close closely following the two hour one bigger group of people comes together because that group of champions can then Really rebuild community that they started to build in that first full day where they're thinking what worked well What didn't work well do people feel jazz too? Should we reach out to and then I agree that maybe it would be worthwhile to schedule a couple of follow-ups Including right before town meeting where people How do I want to present what we did? It's a little bit difficult to Schedule much of anything that week before town meeting because you have to get your bills done, right? Right, so it's I mean we're already meeting into the evening, so right right, right? Yes, I guess I was thinking even more informally in some way like the lunch or even that might be too difficult I know that there's a lot that starts to fill your calendars, especially since it's a second year Yeah, yeah That's right anything that doesn't happen right, but I do think it's good If we at least think about As an example over at lunch that week some day, but we're at least forcing ourselves to not leave it totally Amorphous, right, right, right? And everything else gets scheduled in Seriously everything else gets scheduled it's a matter of priorities as to whether or not we think a Lunch meeting around this issue as an example Mm-hmm is important enough to make sure it happens and I think it you know if you get it on the schedule at least it there It might have to get moved, but It won't be something coming in at the end like you know So now you're trying to schedule some new thing. It will be on the schedule. I Also wonder if after the full day We're going to be hosting the two-hour that we should debrief as the host with Betsy to as lunch council just to say how did it go and what do we want and what do we need to be sure that we're Pushing or not, you know the things that people really didn't seem to connect with at the the big one Even though it's only two hours. It will be where we hit the most people Yeah, I think if possible at least it would be wise to schedule an additional hour past when all the participants will be there for both the one full day and the two hour so that for GAC members It might actually be three hours where we come together afterwards and spend time debriefing Or even after the state of the state where we talk about what came up during the state of the state That is interesting from a from this perspective and use it as another example Right, but I do agree with you that was scheduling debrief to say how did it go? What should we focus on given what happened even if it's a conference call? Yeah, you know Yeah, I Would definitely all I would definitely Plan to attend these I want to be kept in the loop And I'm even trying to think it would be beneficial for one or more of our legal supervisors to also attend So they can be kept in the loop about what's being proposed because this would change the way we do our job Or it could have at least some minor change when we do our job I don't think we could be listed as a host because that seems to imply that we are Pushing this as a policy change and let's counsel cannot propose policy changes, but I thank you I'm excited it will impact the way that we do our job. So thank you for thinking of us and wanting us to attend Yeah, let's counsel be represented there. That's probably the right approach I know you have mentioned at one time that Ledge council every now and then has full staff meetings and I wonder if it would be even useful if we had like an abbreviated just dialogue To have one dredge council before in case other people want to attend Yeah, so to follow up a little bit, I'm sorry Not to put you on the spot but If someone were to ask you How many of the members of Ledge council are sort of understanding this What might you answer? One well, there's me I have a general idea. I have done an RBA slash GAC training for them It was it was a couple years ago. We did it as I did as a continuing legal education course Just I think it was half-hour overview of RBA generally in the work of the GAC. That was a couple years ago So my colleagues, but they would want a refresher. It would be helpful for them to have a refresher. That's great Yeah, again, not to put you on the spot. Last thing in the world you understood that I would want but I heard the words policy change and Wouldn't be the first time I would be naive about something But it I'm having trouble seeing how Accountability this work around accountability is actually a policy change given that it's seated within Legislation that was passed. I think it's because it is a suggestion to do legislative work differently And you might agree with it changing but not all of your colleagues are going to agree There's going to be differences of opinion as to whether legislators should use something like a performance note and legislation and so I do think it is a Decision about how legislative work should be conducted and that's not for Ledge Council to decide It's for legislators to decide like you decide what you want in your bill We don't recommend a policy that you want to put in your bill So that's helpful to me at any rate And we know even within our committee that there has been disagreement with regard to performance notes as just one example Okay, I understand I understand where you're coming from And I also think lunch council has some I there's some things going on as well because last year there were so many bills in the house Introduced and so there's been some thought and this might Play into that a little bit No, no, but by one of the things when you ask the intent question You know clarifying legislative intent when Ledge Council Here's that it might help them to think about. Oh, this is the same legislative intent intent that five other Legislators have come to me with this year. Maybe I should connect them. They do that now Only with permission There were 11 plastic bag bills yeah 11 That's an almost the same thing almost no surprise People are trying to I know but they could have been had they could have the people agree. Yeah, yeah, right It's a useful framework for helping people collaborate. It's also a useful framework for having people understand whether for actually Articulating their own thoughts well enough to sometimes realize that a bill isn't worth putting it So we know that in Connecticut when they added performance notes the number of bills They had went down and who knows what the actual reason was But we know that there was an outcome that we're actually interested in Is Connecticut the only state Emily that does that to your knowledge? I do not know No, at least at NCSL is anyone going to NCSL actually was here and they could Maybe you could check on this but and when I was there That's great and when I went There were I think six states and each one was at a different level of moving along That's where the performance note idea came from So have we actually decided that we're going to do performance notes on every bill and know what that means Okay, no, we're just trying to encourage the use And again for new members, maybe we can tell people what that means. Yeah All Couple years ago and see and see yes, and yes, of course Start with some sports. Yeah Heard about Utah, I think it was doing performance notes and what that Basically amounted to was a little piece of language that moved along with the bill Similar, I think to how a fiscal note could work. Yes That's useful in introducing the bill to committees and that could even I think be embedded into the language of the bill if appropriate And what it does is essentially explicitly name. Is there a measurable? issue is there some baseline that this Statutory change would be in response to are we trying to make a change just something that we recognize as a measurable problem Let's say a trend we're trying to shift That's one way of looking at another way is is Is this bill intending to make change that we believe is measurable? So how will we actually understand if this bill has made a difference basically has it had the Intended population impact so the tobacco reason the tobacco age wouldn't theory To be evident in the tobacco cessation rate or the number percent of kids under 18 that are smoking cigarettes There may also be an intended change on a programmatic outcome So if we make a change to the reach-up program, what do we anticipate is going to be the measurable impact of that? Who will we be able to understand it? We did we used the performance note Principle really applied it to the child care legislation to understand if we made this type of investment and if we changed The sliding scale in this way and eligibility criteria in this way We would hope to see this this and this measure improve over time change over time so it was a way of identifying a one to three measures and that Intends to associate legislative intent with something that's actually measurable so that we can Demonstrate change over time, but also learn from it because what we originally do may not have the impact that we That was built right into the bill right we put in the last section Oh, it wasn't like in the purpose or the intent anything. No, we I mean the intent in the purpose in the bill Was lengthier than normal only because we put seven bills together That was another one where we had seven child care bills on our wall and we put them all together So when we did the purpose we really made it say what the purpose was based on looking at all the purposes and tried to encompass what we really were trying to accomplish and What I found very interesting because I'm one of the big Proponents of this I mean these performance notes was how difficult it was because we are not measuring Everything we'd all like to be measuring because it's expensive To measure everything or we might not have the data or we just might not have the system set up to collect that data And so there were part times and drew and I met quite a few times and I was like, what do you mean for not collecting that? No, we need to collect that And so we had to compromise but it changed the bill a little bit because What good is it to say we're gonna do all this if there's no way for us to know that we're gonna do all that so so we really work together and luckily Chairman Pugh was super supportive as well as chairman And she was too and I went to them ahead of time and said this is why I've tweaked it a little bit And this is what's important and they they agreed and so in the end we ended up with not seven bills We ended up with a really important bill. We spent a lot of money and We can check it. We're gonna keep an eye out and see how we're doing And I think I think one of the points that you're making also and and the explanation that drew gay It's often that the measure is already an existing one that you know, the Departments are tracking or at least it's it's a You know a proxy measure that you can use it doesn't I think one of the things that Frightens people about Performance notes or how many do they they think I've been vent everything new anything and you don't right? I mean the child care bill we're we track lots of stuff on child care. So You know, it's fairly Often that whatever bill you're writing The intent will be to change some of those measures and or if most Bills that come out of commerce, I would hope or trying to and you know grow the economy or do something positive for workforce development and we track a lot of measures and we may not be tracking a Nuance to measure down to a particular, you know sub cohort of people but I Think if people understood that That we do have a lot of measures and that most of especially on our outcomes our 10 outcomes in statute That those are the needles on the dials that we most commonly want to move I think what was hard for me is how do you prove that you've brought more young people here by having a good child care System that supports families. That's really hard. It just isn't we're not it's not gonna be easy because we could bring more people here for Seven different bills that we passed last year. We just don't know. No, but you know, that's where you have to just For example, just to can tourism say that all the efforts they may definitively increase the people who stay at the hotel for this gear No, but you have to have you know, you have you know, there's a connection and so It's almost like you if you stopped if you eliminated the Department of Tourism, I think we all know Tourism would drop. So it's hard to you know, make that you know Go ahead. I was gonna say this conversation is actually a great example of what specifically results based accountability tries to flesh out which is the idea that We spend a lot of time attempting to understand cause and effect Related to the things that we're doing and with a specific intervention and long-term much broader population impacts We know that there's a connection But it's more useful to understand the specific impact of the things that we do if we measure in closer proximity to that intervention and so With the example of tourism there are plenty of ways We can measure the efficacy of tourism towards doing what they intend that are a little bit closer to the programmatic impacts Then the number of people moving to Vermont But I think this is a discussion that we can play out in our one day And I want to just emphasize that performance notes are one Example of a tool that we could be using and it's maybe more specific and defined than a tool To ask better questions or stronger more data-driven questions in committee But I want to pull our attention back to actually the first section of the second table Which spells out basically the objectives for each one of these different workshops? And I just want to draw your attention to the second bullet in the objectives for the fall impact and accountability Workshop which is which tries to draw out a couple of specific legislative activities that might benefit from of the impact and accountability frame like Emily mentioned before In each of these areas talking with constituents clarifying and aligning legislative intent All the way down to actually following up on implementation and results the legislature is poised to think very critically about Accountability and what is the frame that you're using and so we want to be able to in this one-day workshop Actually practice out in some of these different arenas. How might you employ? Tools like the seven questions of RVA for instance with three questions of RVA around performance measures How would you ask? Maybe more broader intent so that everybody on the committee understands the purpose of a bill that's been introduced for the first time or if committee members have different Understandings of what different state agencies or programs are responsible for what are questions? You can ask to get everybody on the same page That type of thing You also see Reviewing reports, so I know we've talked about in this committee before I think last time we were all together actually How many reports come in from the executive branch and I actually know this because I was just mining through to look for a couple specific ones And it's incredible the wealth of information that exists in those reports But they're not always connected in a meaningful way So what are some tools or practices that you could use to make sure that? Bills that are being drafted if there's the opportunity to are responsive to information that's already existing in the public So these are just a couple of examples, and I don't know that these are the only ones representative from Seth Kornheiser and I were thinking about these areas as Interesting to practice. What would it look like as a champion to use some of these tools? And so performance notes are only one of those bullet points, so I just wanted to make that make that point I think that doing performance notes well And I think that could look like a bunch of different like there could be a bunch of different ways of doing that could Have a ripple effect over across across some of these other areas, too The collaboration point that's been talked about now, so many many bills get introduced I think representative from seven seven child care bills that some of them were able to be collapsed what I understand from Betsy Ann and please is That there's kind of a Protocol for introducing the possibility of that you can say that there are other similar bills and would you like to see them or look at them? What we may be able to do in this workshop is create a different spirit of collaboration among these champions where it's actually felt Individually like it would be a good idea for me to see who else has written the plastic bag bill and whether we have similar Intense and could collaborate whether you want your name on the bill with another person that you can't stand So we know that we're in a political environment. This is not just about And that's of course we know that to be true, but in some cases there may be interest and just not an understanding of Any bill that I've ever had that someone else is putting in from Legi council, I've heard there is another bill They don't tell you go and they say, you know, would you be interested in? Me sharing them that you're interested or that you're interested with them. I've had that happen every year Attracting requests are confidential. It's attorney-client privilege, but that privilege can be waived so we try in Legi council to Be consistent in saying when a legislator submits a draft request if another legislator is similarly interested in this issue, would you be willing to allow me to share your name with him or her and That's how we can try to link members up, but sometimes For whatever reason the legislator might want to be the lead or want to keep it quiet for now that he or she is working on an issue It's something that we're looking at Trying to be more consistent about I mean, I think sometimes we get drafting requests on the flies. It's not always easy to remember to say that But we overall if legislators are willing to co-sponsor It seems to just streamline the process people get together shows support for a general idea Doesn't always work And this year beginning this year, I guess We need to have drafting requests in by whatever the date is in December. Yeah, right And you meet that deadline or such as life So the timing the timing of this fall meeting falls in a good place with regard to that. Yeah deadline It occurs to me to that kind of the yin and yang situation. We're talking about performance measures and the ability to track a Bill's intent with the result or the outcome But it also if you look at the data long enough can tell you about Unintended consequences to I think if you really open that up and say well, this is what we'd hope would happen But look over here what happened. I mean take the cigarette age being pushed to 21 What if we found three years later that there are more kids there are 20 that are smoking than there were before Something's happened there that we didn't anticipate That's right, it's about learning and bringing more information Accountability is the frame there, but it's still it's learning So I think the opportunity to be able to follow up on the child care bill down the line regardless of whether there were seven or one Um, it's it's part of our interest here And we tried to make all the people who introduced those bills and we put them on as original sponsors So we have more than one original sponsor instead of just being a co-sponsor You know we all sign those forms the little different when you're Maybe you guys don't do it that way in the Senate. We have these sheets that you just initial if you know Okay, so but on the top there's original sponsors Oh, and so I was sponsors and The usually just one person. No, you know the person that introduced that Asks for the drafting request has their name first and then they're just alphabetical after that Except ours at least on the chapter bill. We did make it really clear that these few You can request And then everybody else was alphabetical So, I don't know maybe people feel a little better I think it's worthwhile to talk a little bit about the history in this building But also just in Vermont in conversations about accountability and the different tools that are being used Introducing a couple of different examples of legislation that we can work on in small groups I think can be critical. So if you have any that are coming to mind It seems to me like I'm sort of leveraging Representative from Bromstead and Hornheiser as my point people for this on the committee if that's comfortable with all of you But so maybe if ideas come up for you about legislation that might be a good example You can send them your way And Could we have clarification are we talking I know this was mentioned before but my ear wasn't totally attuned is that Are we interested in having as you know Examples to work on legislation that is Already passed or that is about to go through the process potentially I think both would be great I mean I can imagine that if we're halfway through by an AM People may have legislation that didn't move last year that they want to improve Is that true? Well, they wanted to get a pass Yeah, but they might want to prepare for a reintroduction of the language certainly not with negatives coming up So with the sponsors of the bill be there for that Okay, but also if I could also at least In my limited experience if Someone who has introduced a piece has suggested changes. Mm-hmm. I've never Known anybody to be shy about saying this is what I had in my original draft But I have evolved in my thinking and would offer that you consider bubble block. Yeah, okay in your deliberations Okay So I when we look at the bills In my mind it still gets really mushy when you talk about Bills that don't seem to have that kind of very clear I mean the child care bill put a lot of money into this we hope for this we hope for this Ethics Commission, what did we hope for did we hope that we'd have more reports less reports less Violations So those kinds of bills seem to me mushier and harder to harder to do this with and so when we do The bills I would suggest that we do maybe one bill that's really straightforward and one bill that isn't and to that the ethics bill the ethics commission is such a perfect example of where Articulating performance measures and the thinking behind them can be so helpful Because generally with anything like domestic violence or ethics violations Before you actually turn the curve on a culture change Which is what your ultimate goal is right is to lower the things that people are complaining about But almost always reporting spikes first And so if you're articulating that in advance for people when the reporting goes up people don't panic because they know That's sort of part of the theory of change that you're trying to push forward And so that's a great example for us to use if we really want to help people understand this work And on fiscal notes, can I ask you don't have fiscal notes on every bill that has no impact right right? So so it's not as if if you introduce the the Policy of doing performance notes you could set some criteria about which bills You know what type of bill or what area you know you could start in one area you could say okay We're gonna work on health care bills that you know with them or you could Say anything with an investment of more than X we're gonna do you know So you you you don't do fiscal notes on everything that has a fiscal impact You don't have to do performance notes on everything Because that's a resource issue, you know, you don't want to overwhelm either legislators or ledge counsel So you you can pick and choose or develop a set of criteria about which Kinds of bills you would put performance notes on so that so that you some of those You know even though you could improve them just having the conversation in those Amorphous bills that you know, what did you call them? Maybe it's not a hardened fast rule for everything I mean, maybe you have to develop some sort of policy on how you would implement performance Or would you leave that up to the the sponsor and the I mean with fiscal notes the way I understand them is that The sponsor can ask for a fistful note or the committee afterwards once you get the bill who can ask for a fiscal We don't but that is a policy isn't it? That's the policy as you leave it up to the oh, I see what you're right Yeah, I think at the same time one of the last things I Would suggest that one wants to have happened is if you're deal if you're presenting a bill on the floor that has a Fiscal impact and you're asked did you where is the fiscal note on this and you say oh, we didn't ask for one There's death right there. Well, that's the reporter and the committee's problem. Yeah, but I'm just saying I think it's rare Maybe I've been living in a cave here, but I Think it's somewhat rare that if a bill has a fiscal impact that somebody hasn't asked at joint fiscal Show us what the impact is so as to be prepared not only so that The entity working on it the committee working on it knows what they're dealing with but that they're prepared for a question on the floor if The fiscal note hasn't already been put on people's desk, right? And I'm sure that the fiscal note it just in the way that you described it probably arose out of someone saying it would Make sense if we did this and that it actually served a purpose and was useful And I think we could play the same card here Which is if a performance note is seen as an extra thing and it's not actually helpful to anyone in explaining the intent of the bill Or in following up on the bill later, then I don't think it's going to catch on But if we position this as something that we think is an asset part of a theory of change toward better understanding if The work we're doing is actually paying off for people then I think that that might work well, right better This is a really important point too. I think one of the challenges our side had I think was the pushback Because the the perception was oh my goodness This is going to completely change life as we know it because every bill that's introduced is going to have this thing and and I've got personally some pushback and said wait a minute. What are you? What is that committee doing over there? And so I think it is important that We make it clear that this isn't going to be a hundred percent that that there will there'll be bills where this Just doesn't apply and doesn't make any sense But there's other bills where it isn't happening now and we probably should do it right what this I think really means is Not so much performance notes physical notes and so on but it's a change in the way we think about what we're doing And that's what I think you're trying to instill is that you apply these principles of thought When you develop bills and when you're passing them We talked about fiscal notes so often and the fiscal notes at least in my experience It is so often limited that this is the cost to government right for doing this But we rarely think about the cost to the public Of doing it in terms of let's say you change an automobile registration. We know it's going to cost The agency of transportation so much to do it's going to cost department motor vehicles so much to do it It's going to have potentially a tax impact in terms of Fines in the judicial bureau, but we don't think about how much extra time is going to take each individual To comply with the thing that we do and that's also part of performance that we need to be thinking about I think it's something you said that is so important to all of this Is that it's about a change in frame or change in culture and it is a difference Making explicit a principle that I think people implicitly have but that doesn't always show up in the process of drafting legislation So if we give people an opportunity to make it explicit At least my theory or hypothesis is that it will catch on because people will start to see that it's actually useful in clarifying intent of legislation or introducing the legislation to different committees and actually following up down the line to say I know that this legislation was successful because and I think to your point it will be Valuable it will create value and will be worth the time if that's true, and I think that it's wise to not push That this is mandatory or even a criteria that you should do this if but rather demonstrate that it's useful and effective For example, it's like the child care bill You talk about champions or people in committees who would affect ask those important questions That encourage other people to think about it the federal government for example does do something occasionally that's pretty good One of the things that they they have is a requirement from OMB is on every form that has to be filled out by a member of the Public they put on it the amount of time that it takes to do this And you know, I've seen that here in state government when we talk about things that we're imposing on people That takes you know, how long is it going to take to fill this form out? What expertise are they going to have to hire an accountant to help them do it? You know on some of our finance bills and then what's that going to cost and that's killed off a lot of things Yeah, that makes that seem like great ideas to begin with It wasn't it even the tax and regulate bill what ended up killing that wasn't that marijuana It wasn't tax and regulate really it was people started asking the questions of what is this cost the environment? What about if we start having more and more? Programs that are you know growing and then all those things what is how much carbon is that in the system? Which I found really interesting is that we started talking about a totally different issue based on Cost but cost to the environment. So it's it's just interesting when you start asking these questions You get everyone in the room thinking outside of the box And that's what's really important on fiscal notes and the 70 know asking the questions and all of that But those are just tools Help change the culture to help make people think differently. So all of that they're just tools It's just how to help you apply this new thinking and I love the idea that the tools That if people want to practice a performance note they can come to the government accountability committee and Perhaps learn how to do it or see an example, but that it isn't required right that what's actually so if you actually turn your page In the winter when we talked about that two-hour workshops Where we would be bringing both chambers ideally together and we would have more Representation than the initial full day you see that the first full of point really is about principles And the word establish is maybe not the best word to use here But it's the idea that we would be able to ground a conversation in what are our principles about impact and accountability What what like senator Brock what you just offered I think is a really important Underlying set of Like a foundation for a dialogue that I think of what we're hoping to have here and out of that The second bullet is then can we actually practice applying some tools so that people leave thinking Thinking about something maybe a little bit differently or wow. Yeah, that hunch. I've had for a long time that we should be able to measure The extent to which these bills were passing are actually effective within the executive branch or broader than I'm not the only one thinking about that and in fact, maybe I could try this performance. No thing and see what happens so With it with two hours, we're gonna have a smaller a briefer amount of time to get through that which is why I think Having a more thought-provoking conversation Introduce the tools but less focus on them than the full day is gonna probably go a long way and then in the convening follow-up I think as we've kind of already talked about We're suggesting that this is an opportunity for the for essentially this Community of champions to think together about how do I want to act in my committee? What are the ways in which I'm gonna help move my committee along? That is organic and actually useful and helpful and not sort of prescribed your formula And then what makes sense for the group of people that are now really interested in this and are interested in tools to actually practice in the first during the session So again, just as like a high-level overview here. We're talking about one full day workshop in the fall Maybe the first week of November where we're inviting champions to come together. It's about empowering them It's about building community about making a Really a learning space for people to actually apply different tools toward the principles of impact and accountability Then in the winter when people come back together. We have a two-hour Workshop or workshop. Yeah, we would hope that a broader group of people would come maybe even people or especially people that feel Skeptical but invite them in and we'll have a dialogue and also then introduce some of those tools We'll ask the champions that really came out of that first day to be vocal during this two-hour So that they can pitch to their colleagues and it won't just be on you or on me as a facilitator Of course, I think it's really important to I hope there's a follow-up to Randy's comment that in talking about this that we When we talk about a performance note Of people get very nervous, right? You knew me. I was I don't I can't do it. I can't do one more thing and there's Wine wine wine, but if you talk about just Kind of the way we approach The issues and the way we approach the bills and the way we think about it. I think that's the the language that we use is going to either turn people off or Invite them to start thinking in a slightly different way and so I I just get really nervous talking about a performance note Putting that on You know, how would bills be improved or affected if If in every committee somebody asked the question, how will we know whether this works? You know, I mean I think people obviously I've sat through, you know many discussions on bills And you don't often hear that you because you're so involved in the detailed language of the bill and When do you do this and what section does that apply to and you know that it's like you step back and go This is all great this what we want to do here is great, but how are we going to know if it works? I mean one question Can change? You know how all the members think about us to sit there and just go hmm. How will we know? Well, there's also a temptation very often and I've seen it in government in which well, we'll have a set of measures We'll improve this by 6% will do this by and so on and the danger in that is it's like the old adage of How do you measure progress in building a house? Well, we can count the number of nails that were used we can measure the amount of board feet of lumber installed And it doesn't matter because those aren't really important. What's important is was the kitchen finished and does it work and Getting a frame of thought around measurement is also critical Absolutely because just having data Associated with the bill is not in and of itself useful. Maybe how to product it makes resources around them and that value Absolutely, and I think that's part of the frame and even though we're moving away from the language of RBA Which again, I think is why is some of those principles around what if we really want to hold ourselves accountable for? What do we want to be able to talk to taxpayers about what do we want to be able to really understand? About the way that these things are implemented are much different than how many else it is it's about whether the kitchen works And this is that's exactly what got me frustrated when I was trying to do with chapter bill It was like well, we collect this and I'm like, but I don't care about that. That's not really that important Right about can we collect this? Yeah, and maybe that'll help us not collect some stuff We may find over time falls off the list and collection right because it doesn't mean that much to anybody But overall in the end it is also looking back retrospectively. I know yeah, this is a process in which we're starting now But the end goal of this whole accountability piece is going to be to look back retrospectively of bills that we passed a year ago two years ago five years ago and Knowing that these are the bills we are put out of their misery now Because they're eating up resources and not producing anything that's productive I'm thinking I've been chair for I don't know how many years and I cannot tell you once when we went back and said I Can't even remember the bills that we passed much Let's go back and look at them and see if they if they actually worked So and when you have them even when you have a chair that's been there for a long time you don't do it and if you have a change of chair and a change of members and How do you how do you? How do you in a committee that that was my going to be my question about the The following up on implementation and results. How do you do that when you have a changing body all the time? Is it up to the administration and then you have a change in administration and they say yeah, well We don't care about that one anymore. Well related to this. There's been Some movement in some quarters to include in bills a sunset date, which forces a relook X number of years down the road. It doesn't mean we want to do away with it necessarily. It just means we need to Shouldn't be so I mean we're gonna have Automatic voter registration through license to through the Department of Motor Vehicles, but we're gonna sunset it I wasn't suggesting that every bill should have a sunset I'm just saying that there has been a move in the last couple of years for in quite intentionally a sunset date added in to force In the view of the the legislature a need to just take another look x number of years down the road to see if it works Or not, you know it works. We re-up the the issue whatever it is. We're not that's an ideal way to look at it Usually it's we'll put a sunset on that would be with a chance of passing Sunset Well, there's another option too, I mean I think there are plenty of different options and it might ask you to spend time a little bit differently Which people may want to do or not want to do but the oversight committees are Well practiced in looking at certain measures that are that they expect from certain departments I know within the agency of human services who become used to needing to bring a suite of measures before the oversight committee and talk about How those are going so I you know, I know well, I think we're not missing that. I'm gonna see bills and dishes You're all the time, but that's not operate that way And so as some of it seems crazy because one year you have a prison sentence for someone want it next year You don't write but it's like That's right. And representative cornhouser. I think talked about this a little bit before but in some ways We're already doing this and it's just about naming it when we are and then creating the opportunity to do it more intentionally where we're not or where we are in which we were doing more of it and Oversight committees are a great example of where some of that work is already happening Frankly submitting legislative reports is another example of this where you're asked to go intentionally Deeper explore certain areas and then come back with information and potential recommendations And so how legislators actually feel equipped and like they have the capacity to review those reports May actually be a similar question to how are we following up on legislative intent? So I think there's opportunities to pull on and I and I think that you know the reporting of measures and making That reporting as accessible and easy to for people to find And not have to read through you know giant report is you know the use of dashboards and things like that So a committee can look and say oh, okay, you know the smoking rate among teenagers is going up How can that be didn't we do a bill two years ago to raise the age? So how can that be so you know by virtue of of trying to understand what the numbers mean and having You know Participants come in and testify as to what happened with that bill. Why didn't it? Make the smoking rate go down. That was the intent of it So you you do go back and consider bills and you consider well if we passed that bill two years ago What was missing from it? You know what didn't we do or what should we have done or what could we do now? That will actually get The result that we had intended in that bill that we passed two years So I think you do this now, but you but we just sort of don't And there are also reports from the auditor's office that Trigger this kind of conversation at times And you know the recent article the recent audit about the you know Fosters in the water is a good example of how the conversation Goes from not everything that you're doing is helping reduce, you know, if you're not spending your dollar dollars Well, you know and the explanations include things like yes But the feds require that we spend this much percent of the money on sewer programs Whether they're the most efficient use of the money or not or well We don't we don't actually know how to measure this or we're just starting to collect the data to measure this So so, you know an audit is is a way of asking that those same questions Well, if you pass that big clean water bill, why isn't it, you know fixing everything magically, you know, so so You're right that audit is is a good way to bring up the discussion That's right the the other thing on the Sunsets It's there's some bills you just can't put a like the child care bill because we talked about that committee like okay How do we make sure we look at this? Let's sunset it Do you just say to families? Oh, sorry in three years So instead what we did is we did a report One-year report and a two-year report But not one that we have because everybody in the committee was like I don't want to read another big one that tells us how much the agency knows, you know And they just put a bunch of data there. So instead we put in there an oral report We wanted in one year to come in and show us the numbers and then in two years a bigger It'd be a little bit more lengthy, but it's sort of on the idea for you asking like how do you look back? How do you make sure that right, you know, I'm thinking more that we probably will need to tweak a few things, you know without So so I Encourage you to think more about this this conversation was great It's already given me ideas of how to emphasize certain language in here and de-emphasize other language in here I'd love to be able to sort of debrief with Representative Kornheiser and Bromstead and then send back. I'm trying to remember if there will be another chance to for this group to meet or for us to have another conversation about this before November, I'm sure there must be you anticipated my question of Betsy and is there a statutory Requirement that we get together again. I know we have to do a report, right? Yes, you have to report in January and Let's see During adjournment you can meet monthly at the call of the co-chairs and can meet more often Subject to a speaker Well, you already authorized It may be worthwhile to have another conversation I'm not sure if you don't have a conference call in a whole meeting I don't know what the schedules are but I'd like to be able to walk through a little bit more content examples of bills Just so you have a sense of How to anticipate certain conversations if you want to I think that's a good idea I would like if we sort of offline a few of us developed Something resembling a curriculum for that work for that first workshop Mm-hmm, and then we ran through it with the committee before in advance of the training As well as a clear invitation strategy Mm-hmm. I agree Emily. I am wonder to Logistically has the speaker and the president pro tem agreed to this and do we keep moving and working on this if we're not sure yet I've been text it texting with Catherine throughout our conversation And I can do that politely since I'm on the phone with you And see There hasn't been anything definite outlined for training that first week But there's some panels I need to do some work And so is looking forward to me sending her sort of our final proposal to put something in by the first week Emily Which first week do you mean first week in November first week of the session or first week of the session first week of the session But we also need to get permission to if we're going to have a lot of legislators come together That's going to be fairly costly for I mean we just we just need to make sure that they are both in Yeah agreement with I'm happy to check in on that if that works for people Okay, yeah, what do you mean? Why not? Well, if we're going to have a full day in November and have a try and get people together But you're gonna they're gonna have to pay to per diem My mileage Well, there's a legislative budget I think before we leave we probably ought to settle on a date For the full day I'm out the six seventh and eight. Okay, and Tuesdays old Monday and Tuesday Of the first week in November, that's my schedule. I had first week in the We're looking at the week of the fourth. Yeah First week Election I have election day as the fifth. What do we do? We don't have an election this year We don't but I just wondered if is there anything we should be helping our towns with yeah, there's some our locals might be Things come up That's on the town Yeah, okay, is there a particular day of the week that works Not just for our group, but well if Tuesday Wednesday and Thursday are out of that weekend. No, I think Tuesday's good This is an election issue Okay And so you're putting that down for the whole day. Yeah, okay, and who's being invited to that Yeah, and he interested legislator particularly people that have already expressed an interest in this type of work And I think Emily representative court and as I wanted to talk about invitation strategy So I'm not sure I think there may be some thought to put into who can invites come from Who should they definitely go? How do we want to frame it? Yeah Which gets to our needing to talk before hand and get this all But do we want to do a mark your calendar or something I'm worried you don't need time. Yeah save the day Yeah, yeah, what time does it start? I think we could do like a nine to well if people are traveling. Maybe it's better to do Three I think we could do tend to three and we will work with whatever time we have right Okay And then when when you you folks Drew and Jessica and Emily need time to Work on this business. Mm-hmm follow up from today. Mm-hmm When would be a proper time for the this full committee then to revisit mm-hmm in anticipation of the food I Think it would be wise to leave time to make changes in case this Committee has any recommendations for things that should definitely change So I'm thinking sometime in October would be a good time for us to all get back together And then we can look to August and September Works If you want to go to Tuesdays October 15th How about the 22nd October Fridays and why did we is there a reason we're starting with Tuesdays? No Would you rather have a Friday only I Was really much appreciate Friday. Okay. I don't schedule me work meetings on those days So they tend to not require as much rearranging. So the Fridays there would be 1825 Can I can I ask that the 18th be not considered that's uh, I got it down for an F and 35 arrival Also the government accountability of the joint IT oversight committee meeting Is that day the 18th 25th 25th works to me Is that enough in advance? So we do it in the morning. Is that possible? I think that would be fine enough time. I think yeah 10 a.m. Again, you're good 10 to 12 max. Yeah, I don't think we're going to need one I don't know. So he's got the time. So that is a gag meeting. No, I mean Friday the 12th, the 10th And then 11-5 is what are we going to call that workshop one? Yeah, workshop Yeah, sorry. So do we need to drop some? Well, I wonder if we should have a conversation sooner though about the The invite strategy and the framing so that we can get a save the data out sooner What's the invite strategy? Yeah, can I make a proposal that True Jessica and I work on that. I just sort of send it around for comments And if anyone has any comments they can just reply via email But in terms of understanding who to invite I Understand Committee definitely for them I mean the whole committee and the entire legislature would be invited. Did I understand that wrong? I would say everyone be invited But how we want to describe who might want to come I mean, of course everyone's invited, but There might be some people that we want to invite personally We might, you know Like the chair how we want to highlight particular pieces of it how we might want to describe what it means to have attended And what responsibilities might look like in the future That kind of thing, but it's everybody Um, who does the inviting? Who gap? Do we okay? Yeah, I would think that it would go out under Senator calmore and represented Townsend's name as chair Let me hinder attendance I just wonder if the speaker and the president are in the meeting might be nice. You got a little added weight there Okay, that would occasion a conversation for me with Okay Mm-hmm So maybe in shorter order the three of us can talk about just pull together some language that you could use That we could potentially send out to this whole group just for Make sure that you approve of it At least as a next step and then if there are conversations to have with the pro tem or the speaker about Their interest in that invitation coming from them Those could be had around the same time The mark your calendar maybe should come from you guys just so we can get it out quick Well, again, I need to have a comment conversation with senator asher That would kind of be inappropriate if you saw the dates Yeah, so maybe we can do that That's so would you folks talk yeah first And we might in terms of the all the November meeting it was just thinking We don't know what else might be scheduled For that day. We might have to be somewhat flexible if if there are I mean if They have the speaker and the pro tem have scheduled something else or there's other right five other committees meeting that that day Yeah, so In that case, I mean you would find out when you talk to And I don't know who keeps track of the The committee the summer study I think Catherine keeps track of that but I couldn't be wrong and probably peter sterling on our side keeps track of the Yeah, I would think he had some because we only know the ones that we're involved in Okay, okay So it seems like there's some logistics still to figure out, but there's definitely some content to work on too So as a follow-up from this you can expect to see some draft email For maybe a save the date that we can send whenever we're ready, but at least we'll have it Describing what it is who we think should particularly attend Clarifying to open for everybody um And then we'll plan on the October meeting to go over in more detail the actual content for what we'll be working on We'll be presenting And the different Examples of what a set of language that we use And I think we struck a date for the Winter two-hour one First week of January one nine. Was that one nine? Yeah Yes, no, that's the uh thursday. Yeah the date of the state of the state and we said 9 30 Oh nine thirty We'll all be I mean we'll be here at least it's a thursday I mean earlier later would committees be likely to be already meeting on that thursday. Yes Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yes. So it should either be early or later morning, but What's that? Tend to noon maybe because the committee's some committees aspire earlier late 80 30 Because of a chance to you know half hour one hour meeting doesn't cut it more Uh Maybe we should wait on picking a final time for that while we talk to Peter and Catherine because they might already have a sense Um, or or be willing to hold time for us and sort of a larger schedule is being So just settle on the date but not the time Yeah, and ask for their advice about time. Okay. Yeah What's the date? January 9th Are there any other issues or topics people want to bring up? What's the report that we have to do is that something else? Oh good That's again can help us sir you have a report to you annually by january 15th and the statute Says that GAC has to report its activities with recommendations to the general subway and that's just Basically, sorry. Okay. So we can talk about this We did it That can be part of that october. Yeah, that'll definitely Put that together with the others that'll take up two hours For sure and be able to use of those two hours. Okay Both topics Anything else bet you can you think of anything? So we have one thing that we Have to do for our outcomes reporting. I'm just going to go with it for this September's report was that the way we worded that indicator on the economy We thought we were asking for the unemployment rate But the way we worded it was Unemployment rate per thousand residents and we got that really wacky number from labor because The unemployment rate includes more than just residents. Okay, meaning legal residents some for months. So We do need to reword that and although we don't put that in statute. We do Have GAC agree to it. So you and I can talk about that. Maybe we can just Take two minutes to consider that on in october. Okay Okay