 Hello all, and welcome to the Hyperledger Media and Entertainment Special Interest Group. This event is being recorded and will be available on the Hyperledger YouTube channel. I am Brett Russell, Chair of the Hyperledger Media and Entertainment Special Interest Group. With us today is our very helpful Chair Assistant, Randy Givens. Good morning. Good morning, everyone. Hello, Randy. And welcome. I am going to post our Code of Conduct in the chat as well as our antitrust policy for Hyperledger Foundation and for the Entertainment Media Special Interest Group. Thank you, Brett. Thanks, Randy. You're going to put up in the chat a link to our media and the Hyperledger Media. Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah, that's fine. That's fine. Go ahead. Yeah, also a LinkedIn page. I forgot to mention. I'm going to point to, I've posted already in the chat this article that I put up on, is it there? I put up on, there we go. On the chat, if you look at it, the OpenAI has been courting Hollywood. So there's an article there, and it's quite interesting, actually, with Sora. So I'm following that with great interest. But we'll see what comes of this recent move by OpenAI and how the industry responds to it. Randy, thank you. And let me start by introducing everybody here. And we've got Karen Kilroy, our resident moderator and AI expert, our file baby CEO and founder along with Orson Weems, who's also a file baby, the president, I believe, and co-founder Ethan, a Walmart data scientist and a member of our blockchain AI roundtable. And Andy Rosen is with us today. Thank you, Andy, for taking time with that other ear you have on the other side. And Andy's in the midst of a meeting with the CAWG, and I'll put a link up in there for that. Karen is also involved in that, and she's taken time today to introduce us to C2PA. And I would like to just throw a little bit out there on trying to massage a schedule that is going to be mutually compatible to all of the interests of our group and our audience and find out if we can't find a better day. Mondays are tied up with the CAWG, and we'll see what we can do here. Mondays is our media and entertainment special interest group day, which we'll probably retain, but we'll move some stuff off of this onto a better day for everybody. And we'll work on that over the next while. Today we're going to hear from Karen and an introduction, high-level introduction to C2PA. I'd like to, when Karen done, if you've got to give back to your meeting, that's fantastic. I would like to talk again a little bit of input from you, Karen, and from the group, including Andy, if he's got a minute to chime in on where we can monetize some of the rapid growth of AI where users can find avenues of income when their particular contribution to a learning data might be used and how it could be identified for future use and how we could somehow find a way to introduce this to some type of blockchain-based digital payment method along those lines. This is something that I was hoping that Jay would be in today. I know that he's big on this stuff here, but we're going to continue that discussion. So Karen, I'm going to give the floor to you. Thank you again for taking the time introducing us to the C2PA. I'm a new member and I'm just getting my feet wet on that. I've done a lot of reading on it and I'm very, very interested in your participation in all of this stuff and how you've built File Baby with Orson and so on and so forth. So Karen, you have the floor. Thank you again. Thank you, Brett. I really appreciate this opportunity and first of all, I'd like to wish Randy Happy International Women's Month. Thank you for all your help in getting things going. We definitely need you. And I also want to give a shout out to IBM for this great diversity shirt. They sent this to me a couple of years ago. I always really like this one. So that's the spirit of the day for me and I really appreciate you giving me the floor, Brett. Thank you, Karen. Thank you, Randy. What I would like to tell you about is something that Ethan Keel and I kind of stumbled upon and that's C2PA, which stands for Coalition for Content, Provenance, and Authenticity. And it's C2PA.org. And the way that we stumbled upon C2PA was when I first released my book, Blockchain, Tethered AI, Insert Shameless Book Plug here. But when I first released my book, I did a lot of presentations at the library, the Fayetteville Public Library here in Arkansas. And Orson Weems, who's also on this call, also was doing workshops and presentations at the library. And his aim was to help people become stage hands and help them get to work. And so I observed Orson quite a number of times. And I approached him and told him what I did and told him about my book that was just coming out. And Orson supported me by coming to my workshops. And he came to one and then he came to another one and brought Ethan. And Ethan is a senior data scientist at Walmart for his day job. And so as a result of us meeting, and it's so funny that you would mention getting people paid because that was really what we're trying to do. We see that AI is eating everything and that it's really critical that people be paid for their work. And no, we don't mean someday, we don't mean we have to sue you to get paid, we mean money up front. And so we started brainstorming on how this could be done. And Ethan noticed, he's like, you know, carrying all these images that you're using in your presentation. They all have that watermark from Adobe Firefly. And maybe we could check and see how they're doing it. And if there's authenticity actually associated with that. And so we did, we dived into it. And boy, we just kept going. We started a nonprofit called Friends of Justin. And I put the link in the chat. And but Friends of Justin aims at that very thing, at that gap between humans and AI and making the transition easy and pleasant and making sure that people get paid. And so, so from that idea, spring, what we're working on now, it was just File Baby. And File Baby is an implementation, our implementation of the tooling and concepts that I'm about to tell you about that are part of C2PA, and that were actually made by C2PA. And so, and so what I'd like to do now, I'm going to share my screen. My computer had a meltdown a little while ago. So we'll see how it does. I'm going to stop my video before I share. And I'm going to share, let's see, share my screen. Okay. So I have some slides up here in in the Acrobat, we'll see if it behaves well. So let me start back at the beginning, sorry. So content authenticity, and then we're also going to talk about how that how that ties in with blockchain. And there's multiple ways that it can tie in with blockchain. One is compensation, and the other is, is fortifying that audit trail with with chain blocks that only blockchain brings. So we're going to we're going to talk about what is C2PA? And what what are the base, what this organization does, why it's even important is is actually where we'll start, why do you care? So I'd kind of like to open this up since we've got a good group here and everyone is knowledgeable. What are some reasons why someone might care? If something's authentic, if content is authentic, what's a reason? Anybody? I'll go. Authenticity for a say a movie script that someone has has written that may have been used or reused by by another party and changed and changed in a way that one wasn't authorized or approved or the originator has not been properly compensated or there's some copyright issues, etc, etc. So authenticity in in in the film industry and music industry is very, very important. Yes. Yes. Anyone else have an example of why you would care? Yes. I think one one big reason I would care is I think we need to be able to establish a value for human made work. Specifically, in the age of generative AI, we need to be able to discern between AI generated content and human created content and then also value that human created content for being human created. As generative AI has shown its capabilities to produce entertaining content and actually across several different medias, we need to be able to say, well, that's fine and good, but we also need to know whether something is human created so that one, it can be used as training data or two, we can ascribe a value to it that that ensures that the that people are compensated fairly for producing work without the aid or use of AI or if they are using AI to be able to discern a fair market value for that content. Yes. Yes. Those are all very important things and work seems to be shifting toward the I guess you'd say the gig economy where there's a lot of companies that are starting to eliminate full-time white collar jobs and that work could very well be replaced by gig work where you sign up and do certain tasks as opposed to go the same place every day. So that's something to consider as well, I think. Karen, I'll say something as well. What's also why care from one standpoint is legitimacy and ownership and we're talking about this covenants and authenticity, but it's also the mechanism that we should care about of what is real and to get to the facts is something that's important because there's just baskets full of information that are coming at people from all different areas and they're seeing so much and the influences are so much and we need to really have the position and the way and the standards to show what is literally the real fact and we just can't have the situation where it's over and over it's talking about people or questioning. Even this morning on you and I on another conference call heard about the royal family, people don't know if one video is true, they don't know if this one is true, we're seeing all of these things so we should care and it is important for us to get back to what is legitimate. People are even questioning news agencies right now where we depend on it for so many years for especially my age we would look for the news and we thought that what we were seeing would be the real story so we need to care to get that back and overcome this part of what we're seeing now with the fake news and the different things that are influencing these people decisions to be reactionary and so quickly so I think it's important that we should care if the content is authentic because it will actually put out some of these fires if you will of folks wanting to just flout the handle so quickly nowadays on certain things. Yes, yes so it's you know it's interesting that you mentioned news and news was the primary reason that C2PA was formed was to combat fake news and be able to track down the origin as quickly as possible until the that origin was authentic and then find out where it had varied and that's why there are big organizations like the BBC leading leading the C2PA efforts so that that brings the question well how how can you tell how can you tell if something's authentic and and I gave you part of the answer on that last the last remark that I made and I I learned this listening to Rebecca Finlay of the partnership for responsible AI when I was at the at the C2PA meeting in in Stanford in December and what she said the way to tell the first step when something when you're wondering if something that's authentic or not is to find out its origin you want to track down the origin and then if you can track down the origin or get as close as you can to that origin then you're going to be able to verify or be able to see when it when it changed course and with C2PA there is there's tooling that has been released through through the through the content authenticity initiative which is a C2PA partner and they're more like the the organizations that most the organization that most companies would join if they're implementing these tools as opposed to C2PA is the organization that sets the standards and and creates actually creates the toolings that then content authenticity initiative can implement but in this case in this image that I'm showing you you have a an AI generated image that's actually AI generated and and and augmented in in adobe in adobe photoshop and by the way see adobe photoshop and all the adobe products support the content credentials natively not probably not all of the adobe product but they all will and and then that in that case then you can inspect the file and be able to dig down and find more information about it now I'm going to show you one of my files we're going to I'm going to show you how you can inspect a file using using the tools that they provide hang on which is this is by they I mean content authenticity initiative and you can drag a file in and inspect it you can drag any file in to this and inspect it anybody can reach this and it's free and this is what I this is what you call a verifier this is a verifier so I'm going to drag this file in and inspect it and it's going to say oh look I have a manifest if it didn't have a what they call a manifest it see first I'm talking about the verifier that's my slide there if it didn't have a very manifest you would just get no manifest found this particular file has a manifest attached with it which means it has been it's been initialized with the tooling that c2pa has created and and along with that an identity assertion has been made that it's it's issued by a particular organization that that this this organization has signed this claim for this file this particular file if you go down and look at this information it says okay this is create this is created by Karen Kilroy it's a this is her LinkedIn do not use my content to train AI models and this also tells the process that was used to sign it and and a little bit more about the content credential and it's the organization that recorded these details so so this is just really a basic claim and the c2pa claims can get really complex there can be a lot of different assertions and there can be a parent file attributed to a file what you can do with this is really pretty much limited by your creativity and imagination now under the scenes remember I said this is a verifier and this verifier that we're at at content credentials org slash verifier verify this was actually put together by adobe there's another verifier possibly coming I believe but the the point is is anyone can build a verifier you just have to build it and what it does is it inspects the file and it looks for an embedded c2pa manifest now behind the scenes if it finds a manifest this this is more the kind of thing that we're looking at here is this manifest and I don't know if I can make the work make it a little bigger let's see um yeah so I'm gonna zoom in a little bit so you can see this and what this is is is text strings just like it looks like right just string a text and some of it you can see lines up with this over here let me lay it next to each other you can see some of it lines up and uh claimed that file baby that's right up there at the top and you'll also see that there's more information in the manifest than comes through in the verifier and that's because like I said the verifier can um is is a separate entity from the manifest it's like a viewer to see all this data that's hit tucked away behind scenes um but also anyone can build a verifier so it's it's like two separate types of things to think about there so we saw a verifier we saw a manifest now now how does blockchain play into all of this well they actually use fingerprinting similar I don't know if it shows in this manifest I don't think it does this is an abbreviated version but but also in the manifest is a is a fingerprint of what the file looked like at the given time that it was signed so they take a partial fingerprint of the file including everything except the manifest and then they attach that into the manifest so then later you can prove that the file has not been tampered with now sound familiar it sure sounded familiar to me does that sound familiar to you Brett I see you smiling um it sure sounded familiar to me because that's exactly how we put things on enterprise blockchain is is we don't usually and when I say we put things on enterprise blockchain my company Kilroy blockchain has been building enterprise blockchain uh uh systems for uh eight years now and we specialize in hyper ledger fabric that is it is that is the only platform we've ever used and and what we do is we we don't put attachments and sensitive data onto blockchain ever uh instead what we do is we make a way to prove that the uh that the attachments or the sensitive data have never on undergone tampering and we do that by creating a cryptographic fingerprint of that information and then placing the cryptographic fingerprint onto the blockchain and then that way uh and I think that that's the practice that most people do when they work with enterprise blockchain so you see how well that fits with the c2pa concept of having a having fingerprints uh the um of the file contents to make sure that it hasn't been tampered with and how blockchain could easily be added to further fortify that that um that audit trail so then you're you're sure that this is the fingerprint of your file and yes no one has changed anything because it's also on blockchain and we have that extra layer that we can use as an audit trail so that can be done in addition to using blockchain to pay people uh and of course payment over blockchain is is wide and varied and um and what I'd recommend is if we if we address payment over blockchain that we make sure that we've got partners that can supply basic needs with that money like let's say have a way that someone can be paid for their content that they they might go into a Walmart or into a library and tell a story and then that story goes up to auction to AI companies and the highest bidder pays them that sort of a scenario while the money that they get they should be able to turn directly around and buy what they need in order to survive so they're not eating out of garbage cans and living on the street and we can actually make a difference and make a make a change and and uh and get rid of this poverty that we're seeing that none of us like um the way to start with all of this is to uh to there's you can join C2PA uh and let me put their website up on the screen my slides decided to wait to the end to freak out that's really good so let me um I put a link in the uh in the chat just so you know Karen but go ahead and just uh to the C2PA but go ahead yeah yeah good idea I was talking about joining these um if you go to C2PA.org you can see the members and like these members the members are just mind blowing and the news is every day um it's not like it's oh every month or two something happens with C2PA this moves fast and uh and just the recently we've had Google join as a steering committee member which is major the more the more large producers of artificial intelligence and then open AI also joined recently as a contributing member um they um the more large uh AI makers that we have the more likely they are to honor the do not used by AI tags that we can put in them uh and uh that if you have an account at File Baby which is which is our implementation of the C2PA tools in the drag and drop interface um then you can you can uh look at that quickly um let's see here the um hang on a second you'll see here we're on this list through Friends of Justin so Friends of Justin is something that you can follow Friends of Justin uh dot nobots.org and then also uh the I mentioned the content authenticity initiative now the difference between joining the C2PA and joining the CAI is is uh you still get access to all the tooling and everything is if you're planning on on putting in the elbow grease and helping to make the decisions and helping to actually carve out the tools then C2PA would be the membership to apply for um if you're more interested in implementation and getting a cool banner for your website like uh like I have for Kilroy Blockchain and uh I'm File Baby if I go to let me go to File Baby and I'll show you if you go here then you can see a content authenticity initiative banner and File Baby is a member of of content authenticity initiative so we get to display this and so as as part of being in the spirit for this I wasn't required to do it but I made all my websites uh be have C2PA compliant uh images so you can you can pull any of them off and drag it into the verifier and it should verify uh and you can get a little bit of information about them um so that is uh what I had planned to talk about I probably went longer than 15 minutes that was well worth it Karen uh no problem at all uh I have a question and uh it's about uh the uh uh the content authenticity initiative this is in Adobe uh who hosts this verification website this is a uh as we as we evolved from the early days of blockchain where the conversation was around centralization and decentralization how are we going to get and or what is the the feeling around the the the uh the status or the state of uh um the content authenticity initiative and the fact that it in this particular instance is a centralized repository of of uh authentic images I guess or or inventory let's use that word so how do is there a way towards the decentralization of that is there okay go ahead adobe built that I'm you know and I could be even wrong about the history of it but my take on it is adobe built that to be helpful and uh also because all of their software leans towards supporting that so they need a way for their customers to be able to to verify things right and uh but anyone uh is free to build a verifier and you see that little string that I showed you that manifest yes you're just that so yeah so anyway that uh someone chooses to interpret that could be done and uh and so Andy and I have been throwing this around you know I think that most likely we're going to see industry specific verifiers you know because who do you trust well I trust who I trust right right right I might not trust who you trust so if I can build a verifier I'm going to fill it full of my own people that I trust and uh and so um you know it really just depends on what you're trying to verify and and who you who you uh trust is that is that uh and I before I forget I want to just make something clear here that I may have misspoke up Ethan is a co-founder of the file baby with Karen and uh I don't think I included that so I apologize even but Ethan cool is a uh a co-founder with Karen kill with Karen Kilroy of file baby which I think looks like a fabulous product so I wrote that even um Andy has his hand up Andy your hand is up I can't hear you you're and you're on mute okay so I first of all you just missed the headline news over in that other call all Eric scootin is finally releasing the rust code that adobe has been internally cooking and I know our friends over in the live streaming task force have been you know are going to be pleased that they no longer have to beg at the doors of ffm peg for these essential little bits of blue code and um um uh yes um darn you you just made a point about um centralization decentralization yeah human and digital hand identity will have a stand at the west hall of the nab trade show in a few weeks and um uh the fact that haven't you noticed that a lot of famous dramatic comedians have been appearing in commercials lately that are made to look like their shows that's at least in part due to the fact that there was a strike and they weren't allowed to work anywhere else but ads were never on strike because ads have a completely voluntary economically mandatory uh contract with actors equity that all ads are always registered with ad id so yeah there there are practicalities involved here that we must honor you know politely so industry industry vertical industry verifiers would make sense so i think is what andy is saying and is there is there any signs of uh some attraction and participation in that side of things are you hearing any of that in the c2pa uh meetings that you're having mondays uh the c the monday afternoon or the ca i the cawg meetings are monday morning the monday afternoon meetings are the c2pa is there any talk about the number of organizations that are going to be participating i mean is this like finding some type of like a a a mining scenario on a public blockchain where you've got anybody can be a verifier is this like a is this like that type of download a download a client put a client on and find some way to reward a an organization that is prepared to verify i mean i guess we're talking like bitcoin here verify that in fact something is truly authentic is this a is this a use case for blockchain in this space karen and andy i guess anybody who's gonna verify go ahead okay okay all right as of this morning's call while karen's back was turned uh oh the oh my god andy the ip tc uh which is led by france television and cbc and adobe and a few others stood up i mean for part of the meeting brendan quinn himself attended the meeting and said oh no yeah yeah yeah all this ad supported news thing he didn't say it's gonna be our verifier but he said yes our trust list ecosystem is going to be the one for news which i'm sure will be big news as soon as i can get a meeting with them to the people at fox who already have fox verify which is not a part of the ip tc click and uh you know i live here in seattle where sinclair digital has its headquarters and they have a ethic as well as corporate policies that say you do not let high tech stand between us and our right to claim our identity and uh there are other big name news organizations that oliver morgan of metaglue and i have been rattling on doors and talking to and the clear message we're getting as i sniff in the wind is that brand name news organizations do not want the verifier of the week they want when consumers switch from channel to channel whether it's on a smart tv or a phone or whatever they really want it to be the news industry verifier not one for fox and one for cbc and french television and no no no no no because the money in making news is only partly people by the millions watch the shows and see the ads i mean yes that's a fun hobby and it's financially significant but the business of news is materially the business of oh we're here in our neighborhood and we got that footage of whatever the thing it was and we immediately resell it to all the other news organizations that the farmers market that open auction of i'll trade you one of yours for one of mine and here's some cash and we're members of your group and your members of that network that complicated system is running constantly and you know one of the off the record one of the first idea bubbles that happened in front of some thought leaders when oliver and i started talking about this c2pa stuff was oh goody we'll be able to charge more when we resell our packages to other news organizations because we can prove you know we didn't use you know tainted llm ai things making it and we can prove it's all ours um madison avenue has been voluntarily through media rating council recommendations for a very long time rigorously adhering to thou shalt not distribute without registering it first um you will not find any national advertisers who deviate from this voluntary ecosystem because if anybody breaks rank suddenly we'll have government regulating it for us and they don't want that so there's an enormous uh you know benevolence of mutual self-interest thing going on here broadcasters want a verifier broadcasters want their name to be workable and consistent and machine readable and interoperable because they've got their business to take care of and all this well it might be this integrity ecosystem or it might be that integrity ecosystem and here's another one that only works for one channel because they set it up for themselves that no no no no no it's you know tower of babel is not welcome in the financial worlds andy oh andy can i ask it oh can i ask a question what how do you keep the politics out of that is there a is there a way i used to work in financial okay okay i used to work in financial news network and you know it's like the windows media diaspora when the light goes off when the camera shuts down or if you look behind the camera there is one news industry pool coverage works because you know you may wear a mask of this or a mask of that and you may be libertarian or radical or central or getting that's for the audience that's not for the people actually running the show the people running the show all work together and in many many cases all used to work with each other at some previous job no no no no no no look my best friend is the just retired head of fox news west and it does not matter what the crazy people in front of the cameras say every news organization within 100 miles of los angeles all trusted gene stratton because he was the frequency coordination guy you know we've seen all these endless shots of nothing happening you know 17 news organizations all staring at the door of a courtroom waiting for somebody to come out hours and hours that's a grueling thankless and often dangerous business and how do you think they stay out of each other's shots much less actually managed to use up all the bandwidth in some god forsaken place trying to get signals out it's cooperative you know it's based on the character of the people behind the camera which is never quite there is no politics in go and there never has been politics in we're going to go out and chase the you know you know used to be you know police scanners we're going to go out and run out and shoot something know what I forget the name of the local no member of the cinematographers union has ever shot fake or misleading actual raw footage gonna kill their career no no no it's a community of people who can be trusted to go out and be fair witnesses and shoot the thing because today they sell their clip to this guy and tomorrow they sell their clip to some other guy and those two people are sharing it with each other and three other people anyway no no no no no this business of advocacy and and and and and and radicalism no not actually making the stuff you know you know it's sort of it well it's it's not exactly military but it's that collegial no no no no no everything fails if anybody starts playing messaging with the actual production of the show doesn't happen interesting I think the my question I guess is about once these authentic and we're talking about news once the authentic news is is cultivated and then distributed we have the we have the and just in response to your your dissertation which was very good in we now have the spin part of it the liberal conservative and then that has to get somehow I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying I'm just saying that this is something that I'm I'm I'm just trying to get my head around how that sort of thing gets the authenticity part of of everything gets sorted out but that my initial question was the descent this is a centralized repository right now being supported by adobe that's the content authenticity authenticity initiatives that's correct so when you do a file upload of your website naren it's going to that particular silo and that is their discussion and sorry to go back to this question but is there discussion about decentralizing this and andy karen is is there and andy is there and the the other question is is it necessary and should it be necessary I guess is what I I'd posture so what there's I mean it's changing the one that we've got is it will be phased out eventually as it's replaced with other other alternatives and you know as you can imagine you know the as the manifest itself is also changing you know as those standards change and also the manifest can change based on what you decide to put in it you know and you may have a whole group of people that work together like like like people who are out on the front line capturing raw footage that agree on on certain terminology that needs to go into the manifest in order for them to be able to trust one another's work and see that group alone might decide to establish a verifier that then brought out the type of trust that they were looking for what they're looking to find can you sum up in a couple of sentences um the end game for c2pa for all affected industries be it news be it film television music and I this is probably this is probably years out before you're a year out or more I don't know but from what I see with c2pa from what I see the depths that they are going to ensure there's a standard and that's where we come around to this discussion the standard um at the end game what is it and when can we see uh the dust settling on this very active and time consuming process for everybody well I think that it's it's you know it's happening really really fast because it is yeah everyone realizes the need to tell whether uh content is authentic or not authentic was the word of the year last year in the webster dictionary oh really yeah authentic and um because it's it's that much on everyone's lips and how do I tell if something you know really came from where I think it came from and that isn't the same thing as saying it's true you know it's did Brett give me this well maybe Brett tells me stories and so I know it's going to have a little bit of a story to it but I know it was from Brett you know and uh that type of thing you know so it's it's it's whoever it and also too it's in in the eye of the beholder too Randy might say well Brett would never tell a story and I completely trust it with my entire life and because I can tell it's from Brett and so you know it's that type of a a thing you know trust is subjective but you can set standards that a group can agree upon saying this is what we need in order to trust each other and see that's where a lot of the work that's already been done with the blockchain world and the hyper ledger fabric world that I'm really familiar with where all that tooling could just fall right into place for for folks that are trying to establish groups that trust each other is there any um Andy did you have anything on there or I'm looking up the name of the official adobe spokesperson for web three a term c2pa hates officially I hate it too but uh was it uh yes kylee penna gave a speech on web three at the simty media technology summit in october and and during the question and answer session I asked the rude question uh why not now that the public's group of ad agencies is deploying c2pa how soon will they step on the air hose feeding twitter and tiktok and all these other untrustworthy platforms that are fouling the brand safety of tony the tiger by dropping uh you know quality brand name ads next to disinformation and hate speech so I asked her the question when will publicists and the other two big conglomerates just announced okay these are our best practices and no more bucks will they cut them off in 2024 and she said I don't know I hope so but yeah I'd like to see happen this is trust organizations and we can borrow from the blockchain world you know it's like I was saying before Andy you know sure you can you can invent the typewriter I'm not gonna say anything if you want if you really want to invent the typewriter we won't go down to walmart and buy one we'll just start from the beginning and that's kind of what I see when I look at all the mature robust technologies that are built into hyper ledger fabric which I'm really really familiar with because you know it's that's what my book is about and and uh and so a lot of that too and which you now have a copy of mr rosen right and I'd suggest that you start with the four controls in the book where we talk about the things that you need to to do blockchain tethered AI see if you bear with me for a second it's I'll read them to you hang on a second I should have them all memorized but I hate to make mistakes on my own when I quote myself but anyway I can't find it quick enough oh there it is page 41 so there's four basic controls that I really see a lot of overlap with one is identity which is where we came from today right cawg so we're pre-establishing identity and workflow criteria for people and systems control two is distributing tamper evident verification so everyone has a a node and you can you can verify whether something's been tampered with or not um and we're already kind of doing that with with c2pa we're already already kind of doing all this stuff control three governing instructing and inhibiting intelligent agents that goes into the AI world but the the question is is if something gets out of control how do you get it back and then four is showing authenticity through user viewable provenance and that one I came up with a long time ago in Austin I was talking to a lady about blockchain and she was a normal lady not a AI person or an IT person and she said well people just trust brands they trust the company they don't really care about all that stuff you're talking about and I said okay well then maybe what it needs to be is just a logo and it really made me think I mean what she said really disturbed my thinking because I thought you know you're absolutely right and uh so I think what we're looking for on that is like the same type of trust you would have back in the early days of the internet or even now when you're going to put your credit card in somewhere you know what as a consumer what are you looking for and what makes you say I okay I can go for this or or I I don't I think something is wrong you know so that's probably at the consumer level but all these things I didn't invent any of them I just went through all the stuff I've learned about blockchain over the years and and wrote it down and and this type of of tooling and stuff is mature there's been groups that have gone through creating trust organizations and and maybe they've fallen apart but we can look at those use cases and see what happened instead of starting all at the beginning I agree I have a there are remaining moments I have a a couple of questions about are just a question about the storage of these the storage the non off-chain the off-chain storage of the sort of data the JSON when you spoke about cryptic you're talking about cryptographic hashes would you hash a JSON file that has this metadata in it and then store that hash on the blockchain is that the kind of thing that yeah I wouldn't yeah I wouldn't store the raw file because right what's in it yeah and so does ipfs play a role in any of this uh is it been discussed at all is it is it a bad word in uh in the c2pa uh world um ipfs being sort of a well you know you know what it is I'm sure everybody knows what it is but a lot of people don't like be sure because it's acronym needs more than one thing ipfs file system an old file system that used to be I think in microsoft no the interplanetary we're talking about though you're talking about the interplanetary that's correct yeah yeah and and you know I I I don't have an opinion on that okay I think there's many many many many ways to do the actual file storage okay and and it's uh it's more of you know because like you could even with with something like the film industry you're probably talking about you know a certain amount of hybrid storage I I don't know how um if we're storing only the hash is on the blockchain the the blockchain would not be big but there would be other storage where there's no way that those files are going up to a an internet type scenario so I yeah I don't know um yeah there has to be pointers pointers that pointers on the blockchain that are sending anybody checking through wherever the data is stored etc etc you're right I I see that the blockchain could not handle that sort of data couldn't handle it's just too heavy and we just want simple 64 bit or whatever uh hashes and that's the that's the extent of it we're at uh go ahead Karen sir oh it's just gonna just start one thing in real quick the the see the manifests there's there's two ways that they're done they're actually embedded into the file or they're stored off separately onto an object store somewhere adobe offers their customers both okay and um so uh with file baby we embed them into the file so it's you know if you're if you're building a verifier and a soft and incorporating this into your software let's say you make avid let's just say you make avid you might want to build your own verifier then that will um you know verify your files how you want them to verify well I'm going to add to our agenda our ongoing never-ending agenda as we build it the fact that consider possible uh building verifiers that are public verifiers and is there a reward mechanism that could be uh adopted to to to reward people that will verify much the same way as there the bitcoin public blockchains are verifying transactions to make to ensure their authenticity and uh etc etc so that this is just something that I want to build on I'm sorry I had not thought about that that's an interesting idea I'm going to be thinking about that one orson oh orson was okay he may have had something else yes he had another meeting to attend okay all right well it's uh it's 103 we're three minutes past our deadline here but I want to thank all of you Karen thank you so much that was very uh enlightening and outstanding presentation I really appreciate you taking time to do that and never it doesn't have to ever be 15 minutes it can be 15 hours we just got to break it into a few days so thank you for that it was very informative Andy I got to say a special thank you for coming today and taking time I appreciate it it's always enjoyable having you on the on the zoom it was enlightening lots of great stuff and thank you everyone for for attending this will be uh on the hyper ledger youtube channel for all to enjoy in the coming days so thank you so much Randy thank you thank you so much Ethan thank you very much thank you everybody take care guys everyone uh huh bye bye youtube bye bye everyone bye bye