 All right. Are we missing someone? Maybe I just can't count. One, two, three, now we're good. Awesome. Hi there, welcome to Building a Cloud Career in OpenStack. My name is Nikki Acosta. For a long time, about five and a half years, I was at Rackspace, part of the early team that founded OpenStack. Funny enough, right after this same session at the last summit in Atlanta, I interviewed with the fine folks at MetaCloud and joined that team shortly thereafter. Hi, boss. Hey, guys. And then about, I guess, about a month ago, we were acquired by Cisco. So now working for Cisco on OpenStack Private Cloud as a service, good times. I am super jazzed about our panelists today. I know there's a lot of us. I did get some questions from the audience ahead of time, but you guys, feel free to shout out some questions. We'll leave some time here at the end, hopefully. Do you guys wanna introduce yourselves quickly? You wanna go down the line? Quick version, all right. My name is Eric Wright. I am Disco Posse on Twitter, and that's kinda how I started when I went to the last panel session. I was working on the customer side, and I've since moved over. Now I'm a principal solutions engineer and technology evangelist for VM Turbo. And I'm in Toronto. Well, I'm in Paris now, but I'm normally in Toronto. Hey, everybody. Aaron Delp, I do solutions at SolidFire. And probably the day job is probably as important as kinda the side gigs that I'm gonna talk about today of I kinda do a lot of blogging, podcasting, and it actually is relevant to this of I really started not anywhere near this industry in this space, and I kinda worked into it over time through a lot of those interests. Hi, my name is Shimad Dahir. I work in the Office of CTO at EMC as a cloud architect. And really, I've had all sorts of different roles as a customer, pre-sales, post-sales, engineering, and really just focused on cloud innovation right now. I'm Ryan Yard, and I'm the head of technical sales at Rackspace, running the private cloud team. And I've had a securitist route to cloud in general, started out as a management consultant, and then went into IT. And I copied his hair for the record. He had it first. So I'm Ken Hoy. See it, when we did this panel last time, I was working for Ryan, technical pre-sales, open stack at Rackspace. Now I am over at EMC working with Shamile, and I'm on the EMC cloud solutions group that's focusing on what EMC's go-to-market strategy is around open stack. Awesome, so quick show of hands in the audience. Who's currently working with, or in open stack? Awesome. Who's looking to hopefully get into an open stack career? So if we have any recruiters in the room, look around. Those are your people. Yeah, there we go. There's the recruiters, awesome. So, a few of us have actually switched jobs since we've been here. My background is more of that in sales and marketing, but if we can just go down the line, you guys have jumped around a little bit. How did you first get into open stack and what were the most resourceful things that you used to get there? So my story is mostly around social media and a lot of community work that I did. Obviously, open stack is founded on the basis of community. It's community-driven, community-created and community-supported, both on building the products, designing and documenting it, as well as just sharing and training. So I do an open stack training course on Pluralsight. I've got another one that's in the hopper being built right now and trying to help to spread the word on how open stack is important to people. And then on the panel, it was a lot of just talking about how embracing open stack as a possibility and then it turned into something where enough people said, hey, I like what you're saying about it. And I see the work that you're doing outside. I blog on it and I do podcasts on it. And Aaron and I worked on a couple of cloudcast podcasts at the last summit. And it really just kind of opened up that exposure. So between social media, blog work, and other general community work that was done, it kind of opened a lot of doors and introduced a lot of people and ultimately led to me getting noticed for my current role and they said, hey, this is cool, you want to come on board and just keep doing what you do. And that became a big focus of how I turned it into a very dedicated role. Kind of add a little bit to that. So my background first, and then I'll get into another subject. So about three years ago, I was doing nothing really related to cloud at all. I was actually come from a VMware virtualization background and really kind of realized my job wasn't where I wanted to be longterm. And I wanted to get into cloud in some way. And I was already blogging and doing a lot of social media around it. And then I actually got together with another gentleman and we found it a podcast. And we honestly had no idea if anyone was ever gonna listen to it. And we both really knew nothing about it. So what we actually did was we just started calling people and really reaching out through social media and asking people, hey, you're way smarter than us in all of this. We're willing to admit that we want to learn from you. And as part of this community, can you share with us? And we started that and it's been going strong. It's probably four years now that we've been doing that. And that led actually to various career changes. I've probably changed my job twice since then. And it's really been able to, really the whole idea of learning as you go and sharing because I think a lot of people are very hesitant to put anything out there because they might be afraid it's not 100% correct. It may be out there for open criticism. You just kind of have to put some information out there and really invite feedback. And I think the sense of community, everyone starts really helping everyone and that's probably the biggest thing. And if you're not somebody who is your personality, maybe you don't want to be speaking. Maybe you don't want to be doing a podcast. Consider blogging, consider another medium that is more suited to your personality. And this whole idea of open learning is certainly what I would suggest. So I'm similar in a manner that about two, three years ago I wasn't doing anything related to cloud either. And actually I started off with systems administration, then networking, and then finally been with EMC for about 10 years now. So focused mainly on storage. And really how I started getting involved was I started hearing opens up more and more often as we went and talked to customers and our products team meetings and things of that nature. So I just said, you know what, I'm gonna get out there and start learning it on my own. And so I started it more as on the evenings really, just picking it up on my own. But eventually because of the community, because of the momentum that this project has, it became a desired topic of research that everyone wanted to talk about, discuss, learn about. So I basically started going to different teams, different customers even, and just talking about OpenStack and kind of learned through immersion if you will within the community and through the projects and even attend the design sessions and got in touch with developers. So just throwing myself in there to learn about a topic, but then it turned out that that topic had a lot of value which basically shifted my focus from storage to being the person who knows cloud that also knows storage. Yeah, so I started out again kind of, well, in a management consulting role doing financial services. So I was like a quant guy and that had nothing to do really with OpenStack. And, but at the heart of it was the problem-solving aspect. So the thing that attracted me was trying to solve problems. And I see the cloud as a platform for doing that and felt like that was something that would be attractive to me. In terms of, at my heart, I like to do puzzles. And so I look at it as kind of, this is a place for me to work with customers to solve their puzzles and help them put the right pieces together. And in terms of building a career, this is a good place for me to work with customers, solve those puzzles, and use OpenStack to do that. So I think that's kind of how I've evolved. It's an interesting path. So I think the one of the big mega trends today, from a career perspective is that there's much more emphasis right now on community than IT, because of the internet, social media. So my focus has always been in getting into OpenStack and IT in general is what can I do from a community involvement? So the last two jobs I've gotten were all initiated through Twitter. Someone reaching out to me through Twitter and saying, hey, you want a job? And also, and then they all said it was, a lot of them said it was because you blog a lot. So we've seen your blogs and you seem to know what you're talking about and want to share about it. So I have a very similar philosophy and I applied that to the OpenStack ecosystem was I just decided every new technology I learned, including OpenStack, I was gonna try to teach it to everyone I know in the broadest sense possible. So whether it's blogging, talking, or just tweeting about things I was learning. So I think we're all kind of on the same page that social media is a huge enabler to kind of get you where you want to go. And I know that a few of you, at least on Twitter, and I think part of the reason why this panel was approved is because I think a few of us might have shared this on Twitter a little bit. So pro tip number one, be active on social media. It's a good way to network for sure. So OpenStack I think for a lot of people that are coming in, especially those coming from VMware backgrounds or systems administrator backgrounds can seem a little intimidating, right? Especially now that the core project's growing, there's a storage side of it, there's a network side of it, there's still the compute side of it, there's the hardware side of it. Tell me about your paths from where you were and what was something that you wish you would have known early on about OpenStack? That's a good question. I need to learn more Python. That's a good, but more than anything it's just reading as much information as possible and finding good resources that are people resources. Like Ken was my number one resource. Ken, Cody Bunch, other folks that were at Rackspace at the time and folks elsewhere, there was great resources to learn and that was a big thing. It's not knowing where to go to learn and I know there's not a lot of, there's VMware training everywhere, there's Citrix training, but there's no real central source for OpenStack training, like there's more. You go to the OpenStack training page and there's a lot of good resources there now but there weren't there back then. So my whole thing was trying to consume as much information as possible. Now luckily it's turned into sharing that back and that's helped again to grow our profile and getting our names out there. Mostly you try and be altruistic about it. It just works out that you get a job from it but the good thing is we want everybody that's in this room or that's at this conference or that's not here that just wants to know about it. It was seeing what's next. This is not necessarily what's happening now but being prepared, because if you just hang on to what you're doing today, it's not gonna be what you're doing in a year or if it is, then someone else is gonna come and they're gonna take your gig. And there's great opportunities there and it's good to promote your own self-learning and that was a big thing is read, read, read. Twitter was a great source for me. It was just about finding access to those learning resources. The other thing I would add is, quite simply, don't sleep. No. When I think the big thing all of us had in common was a curiosity and a curiosity to go play with the bits. OpenStack is a bit of a jigsaw puzzle and putting everything together and for me that's the way my brain works. I wanted to put that jigsaw puzzle together and I didn't necessarily have the blueprint, right? And but at the same time, you have to also take the time that you invest in it and not consider it of I have necessarily have a goal other than just simply learning because a lot of the times I would do something on the laptop, playing around with DevStack or doing something else and not realizing that that nugget that I learned probably wouldn't use for two to three months from now. There's a lot of just simply playing, breaking. Even when you break it, you're learning something that you just broke it and don't do that again. And so there is a lot of and then once you're doing all of that, again, if you do something more than once, write it down. Whether it's in a public format or not, right? All you're trying to do is constantly build a knowledge base in this industry and the larger that knowledge base, the more that experience will come into play at some point. I mean, it's pretty basic stuff but at the end of the day, it really is just curiosity and how much you want to learn and how much you want to explore around OpenStar. Yeah. And I mean, I agree. The learning channels that I took as well where blogs were huge. Ken's blog again was like, I knew him before I met him actually because of it. That was big. I would say the other thing that I did was even though I had no intention of coding initially, like I said, I wish I knew Python a little bit better too but it was still useful to just go sit in IRC and just watch some of the meetings and just observe what the process is like, what people are talking about to get a pulse on what are the interesting things that are happening, then get DevStack, try out the new bits yourself. And the other thing that I started doing was when I was first getting into it, along with blogs is looking on YouTube, searching for OpenStack videos, going and finding the former videos from older summits, if possible. So that was kind of how I started just self-research and emerging in the design topics even though I wasn't going to design just to learn more about the projects. So for me, I think that the thing that, so this is kind of like a, so I'm a hiring manager and when I'm looking for people I kind of think of like a T-shaped profile as what I think very broad and then an area of specialization. And I think that's really maybe like an important thing to think about when you maybe approach OpenStack is that it's really broad. And maybe there's an area where you can specialize so somebody that comes from EMC can build an entire career off of like specializing in storage within the OpenStack realm. And so I think that's the kind of thing that I try and foster within my team. And also as I'm like going and recruiting and talking to people, that's something that I'm always sort of keeping top of mind that really broad. And for me, coming from a management consulting background as well, it like, we would hire kids that had like a, you know, a French literature degree and go put them on quant projects. I think that's, having that background, it's the thirst for knowledge and wanting to learn that's all kind of things that you have to have sort of potentially to really get your teeth something. And while Ken steps up, if anybody has any questions there's mics around the room. So certainly step up. And after Ken does his little bit here, we'll absolutely get some questions going. Yeah, no pressure Ken. I think one of the challenges is in OpenStack, even today is there's kind of a, it's almost a sense. I don't know if it's intentional, when from a career that almost says if you can't code in Python, then you don't have as much value in the ecosystem. And I think we're starting to get away from that a little bit. I think it's important that if you're not a coder particularly that you need to assess what your strengths are and then figure out how you can map your strength to what a need is in the community. So that, whether it's being an operator or someone who explains what OpenStack is and how to use it. Find that, find your area of strength, find the area of need and then basically attack that. Anyone have a question? We have a question over here. I'm actually also trying to hire some people to do development on OpenStack and I see these gigantic, fantastic resumes where people work everywhere. But once they get them onto the code, they are very slow to learn. How do you assess that thirst for knowledge that you were talking about? How do you guess that this person is really gonna sink its teeth? Do you hype them up, tell them about the future? How do you do that? I Google them. So yeah, he's a hiring manager and I am too. So we both have views of this, what I'm sure. I make them install it from source. Yeah, absolutely, that is one of them. But the biggest thing I look for actually is looking for what kind of outside projects do they do, right? Again, going back to I guess my kind of curiosity, right? Of do they have that same level of curiosity and do they have that ability to absorb? Like I don't necessarily always need somebody to be able to do the job perfectly day one but I need that ability to quickly transition into a new area and learn something new. And so if you are interested in a career in that, that is something I would encourage everyone to do is figure out how you can pivot quickly and what interests you and makes you want to do that and go do it. And as a hiring manager, yes. In this industry, I mean it's no secret, there is at times a limited pool of talent here and you may have to actually transition somebody in which is what I actually look to do most of the time on my teams. We do case studies as well, like I kind of put, I have a formalized case study that I present and it's not about solving the problem with OpenStack, it's just solve this problem. And then we kind of talk about, all right, why did you do it like that? And that kind of helps me get a little better gauge on sort of the thirst for knowledge and all these other things. Any other questions? I did have a question prior to the panel. Someone said, I had a good question. Ask him if all the good OpenStack jobs are gone. I think if you go to the job board you'll realize that they're not at all. And even if they're not necessarily here right now, they're, the whole ecosystem's trying to figure itself out as well, it's growing. I mean, if we look two summits ago, three summits ago, like we're counting backwards to, we're well into it. And the conversations that are happening now are not about like, hey, this new thing could be coming, it's kind of cool, but it's small. Now it's like, it's massive and we're getting the classic enterprise, people are looking at it. Some more companies that maybe aren't already running it but they're investigating it. So what's gonna happen if, in a year from now, when we go to Vancouver and then when we're in Tokyo, we're not gonna be looking to the small job board, we're gonna be having dedicated hiring rooms where they're looking to be hiring on site. That's the kind of stuff that we're gonna see. It's definitely a big change with that. So there's, it's where they are necessarily is, they may not look like they're right next door to you right now, but they're out there and there's a ton of remote work as well. We have like 20-something job openings for OpenStack just in my, the group I work with, so. Let's push them back there. If people wanna become a technical contributor to whatever sort of component in OpenStack and they work for a company, maybe it's in line with something that the company is actually doing. So for example, I work for, we run, we're a operator, but we're not experienced in, and I'm not super experienced in open source development in the scale that's done on, I've open source stuff, but I've not been in an active project where the demands for the development, for all the meetings, all the attendance, all of that sort of regime of things, what do you think is the best conversation to have with your company to say, oh, this is interesting for me to do. What are the things that need to, the management of the company need to be prepared for to allow someone to get into this type of career? That is a good question. Well, it can take that one. It's a smile, actually. Butch, do you wanna take it? Yeah, I'll just. Hold the mic close to you, Ryan. I'm sure Mark can ask, is he the sign? So, I have an interesting management philosophy, which is to say, ask for forgiveness, not for permission. But, there are legal implications, depending on what it is that you tend to, that you wanna communicate and contribute. So, I would say, probably not starting there. Cause that just, that may kill it. That's like the whole thing of, you know, innovation is killed by having to open tickets. So, I think there are a lot of good guidelines on the opensack.org about how to start contributing. But I really think the meetups, all the social groups, definitely IRC. For me, IRC is a huge one. If you hang out in the IRC channels, and in a particular project, that would be my recommendation for where to get started. Yeah. Okay. So, from that perspective, you know, the way we started, we, honestly, we started small initially, just because first we had to find the right business case and use case of what we were trying to do, where we're trying to basically make operating open stack easier, where we're trying to make integration with open stack products, or open stack better for our products. So, identify, you know, what the value to the company is, because again, it's a community, but it's also a business as well, right? So, from that perspective, identify what business needs you're solving. Just like, you know, when we were talking about the curiosity aspect, find out what are the pain points that could be addressed here. But once you figure out, you know, what the use case or the business case or why your company should do it, that's gonna be the first thing. The next thing that we had to do is basically figure out how do we look at our existing, like legal processes as an example, and then figure out, okay, working in open source is a little different, and how do we need to change legal processes? The other thing we did was like, we definitely, all of our contributors, know the resources on opensack.org to start learning about, you know, Launchpad and all the different resources you need access to. And one of the things that we're doing now is we're ramping up, as Ken said, you know, we've got a master's team, is we've taken all of our learnings over the last two, three years as we incremented the process of onboarding opensack development within the company. And at this point, we actually have a contributor course that we've internally built around opensack that we now present to any new business that's looking to get into opensack contribution within our company. Let's go talk to your manager, because at some point, if you're working for a company that has IP, there's always going to be concern that if you contribute something, do they lose rights to that IP or they lose the right to patent something? I know, if you've only done open source, that sounds like a ridiculous thing to have to worry about, but the reality is a lot of companies worry about that. So talk to your manager and get his support, his or her support before you go to legal and try to make a case. That's a good point. I think there's precedence too. I know that while I was at Rackspace, they changed their policies on what is deemed intellectual property in the context of contributing to open source. I think there were some blogs and stuff that were done about it. So I think there's definitely a shifting tide of when it comes to companies' perspectives on contributing to open source. Then again, if you're doing it on your own time, kind of after hours and it's kind of your own thing, then that might be something you can do on your own time until you can put a business case together. I don't know that most companies, unless you're doing it on company property and company time, would be adverse to that. And if they don't like it, I would say go somewhere else. Yeah. There's a lot of people hiring. Aaron brought up a great point about, it's also regionalized. I'm from Canada and we just like, we give it away. I don't know. There's different regulatory stuff around intellectual property and patent laws and patents are boo, but they're real and especially if your company has a vested interest in maintaining a patent or starting a patent. There's gonna be challenges. So yeah, we never like to do it. I like to have as few lawyers in my life as possible. Sorry, if anyone's a lawyer here, I apologize. But we know that's kind of a default no and sometimes it's tough to get acceptance. But if we look at big organizations, like if you looked five years ago and said, EMC is gonna open source a massive chunk of the work they do, that's funny. You're kidding, right? No, not at all. This is a movement was started in open source as a reality and a lot of businesses are embracing it. So it's gonna be easier to pitch that case but absolutely, as Ken says, just talk to your manager, make sure they're clear. And even if you're going off reservation, doing it on your own, try and be clear about what you do. Even as a blogger, I do that all the time I approached my management team and said, hey, I'm doing this outside, are you good with that? Cause you don't want it to be something you get a vested interest in doing. And then they say, oh yeah, not only can you not do it but you've gotta leave cause you've been doing it for a while. What do you think are the trade-offs between working for a big quote unquote open-stack company and a small open-stack company or a start-up? Some of you have kind of moved around to different places. What are your thoughts on that? The start-up is definitely, it's a lot of juggling. It's two hands and 12 balls. There's a lot of stuff that we're working on and at my company, VM Turbo, we're doing a lot of things and we're touching on different projects. We're working on stuff with Docker and other open-source projects and it's interesting and it's challenging cause there's dealing with your core business as well as contributing back. We don't wanna be that upstream contributor that only commits code that adds value to your product. So that's a big thing. It's a challenge in making sure that the community is happy with what you're giving back as well. Unfortunately, there are challenges sometimes. We saw it when VMware became part of the foundation. Everybody was like, no, no, no, don't let that happen but they added great value to everybody by doing so. Again, it's not altruistic. They got value themselves and we've gotta run a business but it's definitely, as a start-up side, it's neat to see that we're involved and we want to be and other people are wanting to join forces with us and build it better. So I mean, you've got stuff as well. Yeah, I was just simply gonna go on the lines of in this kind of small business start-up environment, the biggest thing is what you're working on today is not necessarily what you're gonna be working on tomorrow. There is a lot of chaos, controlled chaos in a small environment versus the larger environments. You tend to do a lot of pivots and I had a lot of turns and if that isn't your personality type, that may not be your best long-term investment of your career, right? There is now, I would say again, different from a couple summits ago, there's a lot of larger companies here and again, going back to personality types from earlier, there is some folks that like the comfort of a larger company and there are some folks that like the chaos of a smaller company and I'm a big fan of matching personalities to both your day job and quite frankly, company culture as well and it actually goes, it's a long story but it goes back to me meeting Rackspace folks way back when in the top five, which is a whole other story, but yeah. So I think the key differences I would think between being in a large company that's doing OpenStack versus a startup that might be doing OpenStack are a comment that I heard yesterday actually in one of the sessions that someone made about the fact that there's a company that specifically does OpenStack engineering work and because that was where they started and because they were a startup, they were able to organize their internal structure in such a manner where it just free-float into how the community operates as well versus when you're a larger company you already have organizational structures defined and sometimes they don't necessarily align properly so you have to redefine, okay, this team, how do I apply this team in a universal role versus a product role, let's say. So that's one aspect of it and then the other aspect is again, we're just talking about legal, in a larger company you might have an existing IP portfolio that's bigger versus a smaller company, you might have less contention on the legal side as well so I think it'll be easier from that perspective. On the flip side, in a smaller company you might want to do 100 things but you might only have resources for five so that's a trade-off. Yeah, so I think my situation's maybe slightly unique because the private cloud business unit is kind of glommed onto the side of rack space, the mothership and so I get to actually see kind of both aspects of a larger company and then function within kind of a smaller business unit. Within our business unit, it is, like they said, controlled chaos. We always talk about dealing with ambiguity. There's a massive amounts of ambiguity because we're trying to kind of solve for our customers and it's always kind of trying to draw that right line. The, I think one of the things about kind of a career, particularly as I've found, there's always, as you start a new career, there's kind of the, I almost think of it as related to the hype cycle. There's this, you start out as the first couple of months everything's awesome, yeah, great. And then what I call it, the trough of disillusionment. I think that maybe is the same from the hype cycle and just coaching my guys through that trough of disillusionment. I think that's the, that tends to be the, maybe the thing that's potentially different between a small company and a larger company. Maybe that trough is maybe a little shorter. We're gonna start ambiguity as a service. We're gonna call it Dunno. The only thing I would add is I've worked with companies that were so small that a month after I started, we laid off one third of the company and we went down to like 10 people. And then I've worked at companies where that actually was much larger than the EMC. So I've kind of done it both. And I would say the big thing is as the number of people you have to work with increases, the need to communicate grows exponentially. So I have my job, literally, in the first five months I've been at EMC since I came back to EMC. Half my day it's doing nothing but communicating the same thing over again to a different team. So make sure that everyone's walking the same direction. So let's start on the other end. A follow-up question. I think you were talking about kind of, it's not about kind of what's going on right now but kind of the next big thing. If you're new and you're getting an open stack and you're learning an open stack and you want to figure out what that next big thing is, tell them what you think the next big thing is. I mean, we hear obviously a lot about Docker and containerization. I don't think there's been a single panel at this entire summit. That's all we had. The bingo card gets stamped. What's the next big thing? What are people working on? You guys know about NFE? Never function virtualization? Okay, you can't, that's almost like Docker now in an open stack pond. So I think that's, I think there is, because now more enterprises are getting into open stack, I think there's a more need now for people who understand like operations. But I think prior to that, everything was about developers, how to write code, how to just kind of get things out there and now enterprises, when they come in, they go, well, I need someone to actually know how to manage, you know, how do I actually like fix things when they break? How do I upgrade code? All that stuff. So if you're doing those systems admin work, that's good news for you because you have a place to play with an open stack. Couple different answers or a couple different ways to take this. So from a project or product standpoint, go look at Kubernetes and Mesos. Both very, very cool up and coming projects that have really come into being here, you know, post-docker, if you will, right? Very cool tech, really, really like them. Another one that's, you know, more product focused and they actually have a booth here. I'm a big fan of the Ravello folks and what the Ravello technology is doing, kind of some, you know, cross-cloud migration technologies. That's actually really cool. From a, you know, kind of career standpoint for a second, an area to study with an open stack, as open stack matures and as we get more of an enterprise focus or it seems to be getting pushed into enterprise more and more, study high availability open stack and study upgrades in open stack. Period. If you're not a developer and you're on the operation side of the house, those are the two biggest pain points right now and there's lots of sessions on them and everyone is going to need it. Yep, and I completely agree with both the enterprise aspect as well as the NFV aspect. So just to plug it, if you're not already aware, there's working groups on NFV as well as when the enterprise and both those would be valuable from a identity perspective if you wanna be more of the HA enterprise open stack person get involved in the enterprise group so you can contribute there or if you like NFV then join the NFV group. There's a meeting tomorrow morning for the winter enterprise group where they're essentially trying to recruit people to get more involved. So I think it's 11 a.m. tomorrow morning. It's in the schedule, like 2.41. I have a slightly, so I hear summary of this conference to my management would be Docker and NFV. That's what's happening now. You're kind of maybe asking what's next, I think. So for me, I look at private cloud as the place where business transformation happens. So I think the reason that enterprises are adopting it is because they're trying to maybe upgrade themselves, transform their business a little bit. I'm really, the federation stuff I think is really important because that lays maybe like a cornerstone for something that I'm hoping to see which is actually the brokerage that comes after that. So I think the thing that I wanna see next is actually when people do take that excess capacity and try and broker it in some way. I would love to see that be the next thing. I think it's more of a concept and thing that's big right now is security. If we look at what SDN is, we think of it as a networking product, but it's not. It's a security product. It's networking is the path by which it travels. We're moving bits around, but it's not that we've been moving bits across networks for a long time, but it's the way that we do it policy-based and we do it so we understand we can build secure workloads and secure tenants. So having an embracing security and understanding why. There's a reason why private cloud was, it was laughed at, like no, no, no, just go public cloud. There's no reason to try and build a private cloud. It's too much effort. It's already out there in its public. Why aren't people doing it? Financial services, health services, HIPAA. We've got PAPIDA, all these exciting acronyms that we could name off. It's security and regulatory reasons are driving a lot of stuff. So anything that's kind of policy-based, role-based access control, security-based stuff, having a good understanding of those concepts is gonna be very important because not only do you have to deploy the bits and be able to build a product, but you have to understand how to configure it in a secure manner and understand multi-tenancy. It's still fresh and still hurts to a lot of people. It's gonna be something that at least we've got to know why we aren't doing stuff as much as why we are. And security is a big driver to a lot of that. So we have two minutes left. Any questions out there? Yes, sir. What are you asking for the sources? Sure. The questions are, go ahead and repeat the question. So the question was for the hiring managers, where are you actually looking for people? Kind of what are the sources? So honestly, for me right now, it is a lot of Twitter and a lot of LinkedIn. It is a lot of social media and really kind of throwing stuff out there and kind of casting the net and see what comes in. And then really taking that and distilling it down from there of where can we really take those folks and put them through the process from there. But actually, most of the folks that come into my organization are coming through very unconventional means, not your typical ways in any way. Yeah, our recruiter at Metacloud, she posts everything on jobs.metacloud.com, but she is very active in social media and she's meeting a lot of people that way as well. For me, it's LinkedIn, but what I've done is I kind of have this vision of what the LinkedIn profile looks like. So I made a, this is just a weird thing that I did, I made a fake LinkedIn person. I was like, this is exactly the person I'm looking for and I had my recruiter go and try and find people that look like that. Brilliant. I'm sure it's against LinkedIn's policy, but what ifs, I'm not telling you. Great question, by the way. We have just a minute left. Let's start on Ken's side. Let us know where we can find your blog and your info. Obviously, we have our Twitter names up here, but. So I'm on Twitter a lot. And I have a blog called Cloud Architect Musings. But if you follow the Twitter, at some point you'll see the blog. It's just, it's in part of the profiles as well, so. I am inept at all of these things. So, yeah, I went from pointy hair to dreadlocks anyway. Yeah, for me, I don't blog yet, but Twitter's probably the best way. Yeah, so of course there's the Twitter up there. I don't really actively blog anymore just solely because the day job tends to consume too much now. But do a weekly podcast on cloud computing and kind of emerging technologies in DevOps. It's called thecloudcast.net. And it's out on iTunes as well. But we've been doing it for actually going on almost four years now. So that's the main way to get hold of me. And I'm easy to find, I'm Disco Posse on Twitter. If you wanna find me on LinkedIn, I'd be happy to connect there. Just do a search for Disco Posse. Trust me, there's only one. And I'm at discoposse.com which has very little to do with Disco or Posse, surprisingly. And then I run a little thing called Virtual Design Master. You can come and hunt me down there. We've got some really cool stuff. And we did some OpenStack stuff there earlier this year and we're gonna do some more there. So, like I said, reach out, Disco Posse is easy to find. Great, and I run an OpenStack podcast with Jeff Dickey called OSPod. There were some trademark things with the foundation. But it's at OpenStackPod. Thank you all for coming. You can hunt us down on Twitter if you have additional questions for us. Recruiters, raise your hand once again. Who's recruiting? Find those people. Talk to that man, talk to that guy, talk to this guy. You guys are looking for a clock here. Good luck.